InterviewwithDr.TinaPayneBryson

July21,2016

No-DramaDiscipline:TheWhole-BrainWaytoCalmtheChaosandNurtureYourChild's

DevelopingMind

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Jacqueline: Sowelcomeeveryone!Iamsoexcitedaboutourveryspecialguesttodayinthiswonderful interview. Welcome to The Great Parenting Show, my name isJacquelineGreen.Andincaseyouarebrand-newherewehavebeendoingthisshow I started in 2010 so this is our sixth season.Andhuge kudos to you forfindingthetimetodaytolistentouswhetheryouarelisteningliveorwhetheryouarelisteningtothereplay.IknowthisisthecraziestbusiesttimeofyourlifeandIwanttogiveyouahugeacknowledgmentandhaveyougiveyourselfapatonthebackforfindingthetimetobehere.

NowsomethingIlovetoemphasizeisthateachofus,aswegrowandlearnasparentswegetmoreconfidentandthequickerwebecomeconfidentinthefactthatwecanfindanswerstomoreeasilyitisactuallyforourchildren,right?SoIreally want you to approach this as you or your child’s best expert, youultimatelyaretheonewhowillfigurewhatworksbestforyourfamily.

Nowwewouldn’twanttogotoanyspecialistwhowasn’tgettingtrainingandwasn’tgettingongoinghelpsoofcoursetrynew ideasbutdokeepcomingatthings fromtheplaceof takingwhatyou likeand leave the rest.So if youarewanting to share this with other people, please send them towww.greatparentingshow.comandtheywillgetthesignupinformationthere.

So without further ado, I want to give you a brief introduction to our veryspecialguest todayDr.TinaPayneBryson.Andher topic today is she’s talkingaboutNoDramaDisciplineandIboughtthisfabulousbookofhers,it’sactuallyjustoutnowinpaperbackaswell.AndIwantedtogiveyouabitofhighlightsofher biography. She’s a psychotherapist and a co-author with Dr. Dan Siegelwho’s also been on the show, two New York Times bestsellers, No DramaDisciplineandWholeBrainChild.

Her accomplishments are way too long to list but they include keynotingconferencesanddeliveringworkshopsallovertheworld,frequentappearancesonmediasuchasTime,GrowinginAmerica[02:12inaudible]Redbook,theNewYork Times, real simple to name a few. She’s been nicknamed The BrainiacMom;Ilovethatassheemphasizesthefactthatsheisamomaboveherworkasaparentingeducatorandaresearcher.

Shelimitsherclinicalpracticeandspeakingengagementssoshecanspendtimewith her husband and her three boys and she says about her boys: they alsomademyresearchverypersonal,helpingbringingtogetherthedifferentrolesoffamily life whether I am a part-time educator or a researcher, full-time LittleLeaguemom,superJedispywith laserpowers.AsIsaydetachmentandchild-rearingtheoryandhowthesensesofthebrainworksandbeabletoapplythat

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knowledgetohelpmeparentmuchmorethewayIwant,lovinglyintentionallyandeffectively.

And her professional focus is now on helping us bring surprisingly tacticalinformationonhowourbrainsworksothatwecandisciplineandhelpourkidswith their everyday structure by building the powerful connections that wewant and need to havewith them. Sowithout further adoDr. Bryson, PayneBryson–welcometoTheGreatParentingShow!

Tina: Thankyousomuch,thankyousomuchforhavingme,itisalwayssuchanhonortogettotalkaboutthiswork.InevergettiredabouttalkingaboutthisbecauseIamsopassionateaboutthisbothasaprofessionalbutalsoasamomandIhavethreeboyswhoarenow16,13andalmost10soIstillhadoneinasingledigitsforjustanothermonthorsoandIamholdingontothat.

ButIamsoexcitedaboutthisbecauseasIstartedstudyingandresearchingandtrainingandinterpersonalneurobiologyandchild-rearingtheoryandallofthesethingsIkepthavingbabiesasIwasdoingthisresearchandIwasreallythinkingaboutwhatdoesitmeantotakewhatweknowandthecuttingedgestuffthat’scoming out about the brain and about how we build character and how weparent intentionallyand Iwaswrestlingwith itmyselfasaparent.So Iwassoexcitedtogetthatsharewithyoutoday.

Jacqueline: Wellit’sfantasticandIknowoneofthethingsthatyoutalkaboutishowaswego down this journey that the discipline part gets less and less and is not sodemanding. So it’s just a massively important gift to give parents nowadaysbecause I don’t think parents have ever parented in a crazier timewhere thedemandsonusasparentsaresointense,somanystartsandstopsandsolittlesenseofwhattodo.

So let’sdive intowhatgotyoustarteddownthispath toultimatelybeingTheBrainiacMom.

Tina: Well I was working on a PhD and I was really interested in thinking aboutinvesting inparentsand supportingparents in this important rolebecausewenow know and we’ve known now for a couple of decades that the kinds ofexperiences we have don’t just impact our minds or our characters or ourpersonalitiesbuttheactualarchitectureofhowthebraingetssetup.AndsoIthought gosh if I’m going to do a reallymeaningful work, I want to invest inparentsand inparentingsothatthechangesandthekindsofexperiencesthechildren have, primarily in their relationshipwith their parentswill wire theirbrainstothenbecomebetterandbetterparents.

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I feel like this work that you are doing that I am doing thatwe are all doingtogether even if the individual parents, the work we are doing is impactingfuture generations. So Iwas studyingall of this stuff and itwasa timewheremoreandmorewascomingoutaboutthebrainandIheardDanSiegelspeakataconferenceandmybrainlitupandIsaidIhavetofollowthisguy.

IhadtoldthisstorybeforebutmymomisaneuropsychologistandIwassittingwith her at this conference andDan talked for about 15, 20minutes, I didn’tknowwhoDanwasandallofthequestionsIhadasaPhDstudentthatweren’treallygettingansweredsatisfactorilykindofclickedintoplaceandIleanedovertomymomandIsaid:Ineedtofollowthisguy,Ihaveaprofessionalcrush.

AndsoatthattimewhileIwasaPhDstudentandamomIalsostartedstudyingwithDanand I studiedwithDan in the fieldof interpersonalneurobiology forabout10years;onceamonthinanintenseway.Andduringthattime,soIlivedinkindofeasternsideofLosAngeles inPasadenaandDan’sofficewasonthewestsideofLosAngeles’s;andanyonewhoknowsanythingaboutLosAngelesknowsthatwedealwithsometraffic.

So these Fridays when I would go and study with Dan to go deep into thescienceitwaslikemybraincandy.AndIwaslearningallofthesethingsabouthow we can integrate the brain and how we can help move people fromreactivestatesintomorereceptivestatesandIwaslearningallofthesethings.Andas Iwassitting intrafficonthewayhomethinkingaboutthescienceandthistheory,IknewIhadtheselittleguyswaitingformeassoonasIwalkedinthedoor.And I started thinking abouthowcan I take this andapply it to theday-to-daymoments? And it started changing how I thought about disciplineand it started changing how I thought about their little brains and their littlebodiesandmyroleinthatdevelopmentandinatotallynewway.

And then I started sharingwhat I was learningwith other parents and it justbecameliketheseripplesandripplesandparentsweresoexcitedandshiftingwhattheyweredoingandsothat’swhenIwenttoDanandsaid,we’vegottowritethisbookandthat’sreallywhereTheWholeBrainchildcamefrom.

ButitwasinterestingbecauseTheWholeBrainchildisanamazingbookthatweare just still so excited about that talks about how we can set the stage forchildren to become fully happy andwhole and fully themselves and to reallybuildsomeskills.Andyetasaclinician,andasaparentingconsultantandwhenI do interviews, people have… the thing that people have themost questionsabout is typically discipline. So I started trying to takewhat I knewabout thebrain and the nervous system and attachment science, not attachment

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parentingbutattachmentscienceandthinkaboutthatintermsofdisciplineandthat, thenDanand Iwrestledwith thatand that’swhereNoDramaDisciplinecamefrom.

Jacqueline: Oh,that’sjustfantastic!AndpeoplearefamiliarwithmyworkItalkalotaboutthe distinction between attachment parenting which is somewhat based onattachmentscience;thatattachmentscienceisnotquitethesamething,it’snotbabybondingforexampleornotjustthosethings.SoyeahIloveit.

Tina: You don’t do attachment parenting quote unquote. You can still have a babythat’sbeautifullysecurelyattachedtoyousoIknowyou’veprobablytalkaboutthatamilliontimes.

Jacqueline: Yes,yeahexactlybecausethattripspeopleupthattheythinktheyhavetodosomehabitsthatdon’tworkforthemlikeextendedbreast-feedingorwhatever.

Tina: Right.

Jacqueline: Okaysolet’sdivealittlebitmoreintodiscipline.Ilovetheframeworkyougaveus for how you got here. Let’s start with the really basic thing about themisconception about what discipline is and what you see as the goals fordiscipline.

Tina: Yes.IlovewhatyousaidifyouminutesagowhenyousaidI’vebeenholdingitbecauseIwantedtogetbackto it, itwasreallywonderful.Yousaidthat ifweare disciplining in this no dramadisciplineway,we should be disciplining lessovertime.Now that to anyparent is like tellmewhat that is because Iwouldlove tohave thediscipline lessovertime.And this iswherewegoback to theessenceofwhatdisciplineactuallyis.

Somehowourculturehasreallyassociatedtheworddisciplinewithpunishment.Andinfactwehadacolleaguewhowereallyrespectwhokindofencouragedustonotusetheworddisciplineinourtitleatallbecauseit issoassociatedwiththewordpunishment.But I’vegotanaudiencewhen Isaytheworddisciplinewhatword do youmost associatewith that? Theword punishment is alwayswhatissaidintheroom.

ButwhatDanandIwantedtodowastotaketheworddisciplineandtheideaofdisciplinebacktoitsoriginalrootswhichisteaching.Theoriginofthewordisallabout teaching. When you think about Jesus’ disciples or you think aboutdisciplinesinacollege,reallytheoriginofallofthatistheideaofteaching.

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AndIliketoaddinalsothephrase–skillbuilding.Soinitssimplestform,theNoDramaDiscipline approach is really this, is that discipline is all about teachingandskillbuilding.So ifweareeffectivedisciplinarians,andofcourseby that Imean teachers and skill builders, thenwe shouldbedisciplining lessovertimebecausewearebuildingthoseskillsandteachingourchildrenskillssothattheycan handle themselves and better ways, they become more self-regulated,moreself-disciplinedsothatwe’rehavingtodealwiththatlesswiththemandlessandlessdirectwhenways,that’sexciting.

Jacqueline: Yes. Oh, absolutely because the fact of thematter is as parents even thoughmanyparentsdoandlet’stalkalittlebitaboutsomeofthemistakesparentsdoin discipline because I knowparents force themselves to do things that don’teven feel right because they are clear that discipline is important and in thiscase even the teaching part they are clear is important so they are punishinganddoingdifferentthingsfromthatplace.Doyouwanttotalktousalittlebitaboutthat?

Tina: Yeah. I thinkwhenparents,whenwe findourselvespunishingordoing thingsthatdon’tfeelgoodtousit’stypicallyforacoupleofdifferentreasons.Oneiswemightbelievethatsomethingweneedtodoforchild’sbestinterest,sortoflikehowwehatehavingtogivethemshotsorImeantotakethemtothedoctorfor pain or dentists, like we know our child is not happy, it’s unhappy, it’smiserableforusbutweknowit’simportantfortheirwell-being.Sosometimesthat’sthereasonparentsaredoingit.

Anotherreason,andthisisabigone,isthatparentsgetreallydysregulatedandfall apart and have their own tantrum in themoment and they just resort tosome sort of reactive thing, whatever comes in theirmind in thatmoment –theyultimatelygooh,thatdidn’tfeelgood,it’salose-lose.

Another iswehavebeensortof inheritingnot just fromourownparentsandownexperiencesbutculturally,messagesabouthowweshouldbediscipliningourchildrenandwedon’treallyknowwhatelsetodo.AndsothosearesomeofthemainreasonsIhearfromparentsaboutwhytheygowiththat.

Buthereisthething,if,andthisissortoftheelevatorspeech,thisissortoftheessenceofNoDramaDisciplineandthatisthateverychildisunique.AndIlovewhatyousaidatthebeginning,eachparentisanexpertandwhatworksforonechildmaynotworkforthat…eventhatsamechildafewhourslateroranotherchild. And sowe have to really attune towhat’s happeningwith our childrenandsortof listento theexperts, listentoyourown instinctsbutultimatelygo

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withwhatworksbestforyourchild.I’mallaboutwhatworksandalotofwhatwedointhenameofdisciplinedoesn’tultimatelywork.

Sohere is theelevator speechpart – thewholepointofdiscipline is to teachand tobuild skills.Andsowhenwe thinkabout thebrainandwe thinkaboutthenervoussystemandwethinkaboutrelationshipsandwhatweknowaboutthe science of that, we can only learn whenwe are in a receptive teachablestateofmind.Andthebrainiseither inareactivestatewhereitcannot learn,it’sonly in like fight, flight, freeze,defend, reactivemodeor it’s ina receptivestateofmindwherethereisopennessandanabilitytolearn.

So if the whole point is to teach and build skills, their brain has to be in areceptivestateofmindinorderfordisciplinetobeeffective.Whichthenmakesus start thinking aboutwhatwe are actually doing sowe should be asking iswhat I am doingworking? Is it building skills? Is it changing things? Do I feelgood about it? Does my child feel okay about it? These are some of thequestions. And what we’ve often been taught in the name of discipline isactuallytotallycounterproductivetolearning.

Whenyouthinkaboutoneofthethingsthatmostofushavebeentaughtisthatifachilddoessomethingyouhave toaddress it right there in themomentortheywon’tlearn,right?

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Tina: Somethingweallkindofhadanassumptionabout.Butwhenyouthinkaboutthisthatthebrainiseitherreceptiveorreactiveandweneedittobereceptiveto learn, that’s when the best discipline happens. Doing it in the moment isoften the worst time to do it! And actually all the science was based onbehaviorismbackinthe50sprimarilyonanimals,that’sjustnottrue.

Even if a two-year-old is in a reactive state ofmindwe canwait a few hourslaterwegoback,wehavethereflectivedialoguewithourtwo-year-oldandwesaylet’stellthestoryofwhathappenedearlierwhenweweregettinginthecarandyouthrewyourshoeatmom’sface,let’stellthestoryaboutthat.Andyoucan go back and that is a much better discipline moment and they canabsolutelyholdontothatinformation.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s so huge and what I love is that you talk about and I believe it’s aconcept that Dr. Dan Siegel talks about that upstairs versus downstairs brainbecauseitreallyhelpsexplainthatreactivestatethatweallgetintoandhelpsusconceptuallyunderstand.Soifyouwanttojustexpandalittlebitonthat?

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Tina: Yeah, that’sright,so inTheWholeBrainchild,wetalkedaboutthis ideaof theupstairs brain and thedownstairs brain.And I amactually really excited I cankindofdoalittleannouncementhere,DanandIareworkingonathirdbook.Itwill be out fall of 2017 called The Yes Brain and it’s all about promoting thisreceptiveupstairsbrain.Andwearegoingtobetalkingaboutsortofthepillarsof how tobuild this upstairs brain so it canbe receptive so I amvery excitedaboutthat.

But yes, inThe Yes Brainwe talk about this idea of how there is the upstairsbrain that isbasically your frontal lobe, yourmiddleprefrontal cortexand thedownstairsbrain isthemore,thefirstpartofthebrainthat’sdevelopedmorewhat we would call primitive, that’s much more about reacting whereas theupstairs brain ismuchmore aboutpausingbefore action and considering andself-regulating. So Dan developed the handmodel of the brain which I don’tknowifhedidthroughyourshowornot.

Jacqueline: Notontheshow,sogoahead.

Tina: This is a great inventionanddon’tmindmy terriblemanicurebecause I amamomand Iworkand it’s aholidayhere, it’s summer.Butbasically the idea isthatthisisagreatlittlehandmodelofthebrainandIwillactuallydoitforyoufirstthewayIwouldteachittomaybeafiveorsix-year-old.

Jacqueline: Perfect.

Tina: SothewayIwouldteachitto…IalsoworkedinaschoolonedaybecauseIgettogointotheclassroomsandthat’ssuperfun.ButwhatIwouldsaytothemisthatthefirst thing Iwouldsay is–doyouknowwhatamodel is?AndusuallytheysaylikeLegosoramodelairplaneandIwouldsaythat’sright.It’snottherealthingbutit’sasmallerversionofwhatitreallyis.Andsowouldyoulikeamodelofyourbrainthatyoucanwalkaroundwithinyourpocketallthetime?Andtheygetexcitedaboutthat.

AndthenIwillsayokay,soifyouwilltakeahandandIwouldsaymakeafive,makeafourandthenuseyourfingerstohugyourthumbsoyourthumbiskindof tucked away in there. And then Iwill say you have different parts to yourbrainandthelowerpartsofyourbrainwhichwecancallthedownstairspartofyourbrain,thispartofyourbrainiswhereyouhavethereallybigfeelingsandwhereyouwanttodostuff.Andthispartofyourbrainuphere,wewillcall itthe upstairs brain because it is higher up in your brain, this is a part of yourbrain that helps youmake calm, kind choices. And sometimes when you get

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reallybigfeelingsinyourdownstairsbrain,it’slikeyouflipyourlidandit’shardtomake,kindchoices.

AndthenIwouldoftenaskthemwhatcanyoudotohugyourdownstairsbrain?Howdoyoucalmdownyourdownstairsbrain?Andkidswilltellmethingswealreadyknowlikemovemybody,takedeeperbreaths,hugmymom;theywillhavelikedthesethingsthatweknowtoo.

So this is really importantbecause this, so forusadultsbasicallywhatwearetalkingabouthereisthebrainstemwhichis[18:26inaudible]thisispart.Thisisthe limbicarea,bothtotallyprettymuchdevelopedatbirthandverymuchallaboutreactingbeforethinking,gut instinct,allofthat.Andthenherewehavetheouterbarkorthecortexofthebrain.Herewouldbethemiddleprefrontalcortex,backbehind theorbitsof theeyeswhich is themainpartof thebrainwherewearereflective,wehaveinsightandempathy,weconsiderouroptionsbeforewemakechoices;it’skindofthegutsofsocialandemotionalintelligenceandself-regulationwhichisthemiddleprefrontalcortexinterestinglyconnectedtothecortex,touchinglimbicandbrainstemsoit’skindofanimportantparttointegrate.Thisisthepartofthebrainthat’snotdonedevelopinguntilthemid-20s and this is the part of the brain that flies off the handlewhenwe lose itourselvesasaparent.

I rememberwithmy three-year-old,my firstonewho isnow16anddriving, Ihad this moment with him and I’ve written about this in The No DramaDiscipline,Danand Ibothhave intheappendixstoriesabouttimesasparentsweloseourlidsandthemostimportantpartofcourseafterwehaveruptureisthat we make repair with our children. But I won’t tell the whole story butbasicallyI…mysonhadhitmeandsohewasthreeandsoIsatdownwithhimonourstairsandIsaidyouknow,handsareforhelpingandforloving,notforhurting–somethingkindofcheesylikethat.

AndhehitmeagaininthatmomentandsothenIwentwiththeempathykindofapproach:thatreallyhurtsmom’sbody,begentle.Letmeshowyouhowtobegentle.AndhehitmeagainandsoIdidthefirstthingIcouldthinkof–Isaidwellnowyouare intimeoutat thetopof thestairs, it reallywasn’tatimeoutbecause itwasreallya time in, Iwaswithhim.But Imarchedonto thetopofour stairs and he was thinking – well we’ve never done this before, this isinteresting.

AndsoIwasstartingtogetmoreandmoreupset,moreandmoredysregulatedmyselfand Iendedup saying tohim–youknownohittingmommyand I amdoing the finger wagging and am kind of leaning over him, more aggressive

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voice,moreaggressivepostureandhedidn’thitme,hekickedmeintheshin.AndsonowIsaidwellnowyouareintimeoutinmom’sroomandIyankedhimprobably too hard intomy room and I was leaning over himwagging and hestuckhistongueoutatme.

And so this part of my brain here is all about self-regulation and inside andempathyandgooddecision-makingandmoralityand intuitionandallof thesewonderful things– I flippedmy lid,mydownstairsbrain takesover and I say:you stick that tongueout onemore time and I am going to rip it out of yourmouth.SoIthreatenedtoremoveabodypartwhichisnotagoodidea.

Hecollapsedonthefloorandstartedtocryandhesaidyoudidn’tmakeagoodchoiceanditwaslike–ohIscaredhiminthatmoment,IwasnottheparentIwanted tobe in thatmoment. Fortunately Iwasable tokindofpullmybrainback into an integrated state in thatmoment and scoop him up and tell thestory and repair with him and he decided he liked telling that story tomanypeoplefourdaystocomebecause[crosstalk21:26].

Butthiscanhappenwithourkidsaswellaswithusandit’sthatsameideathatthebrainiseitherinthisreceptiveintegratedstateorit’sinareactivestateandmany of the discipline problems our children have in the moment are notbecausetheyareintentionallytryingtobeoppositional,althoughthathappensforsure,butalotofwhatweseeaspurposefultryingtobebad,isthemhavingahardtimethemselvesandthatbrainbeinginastateofdis-integration.

And I would like to argue that from an attachment science perspective, thatwhen our children are falling apart, when they are having the hardest time,that’swhentheyneedusthemostandwhentheydothisandtheyarefallingapartand somethingoverwhelms them like there is amomentwhereyou tellthemwe’regoingtogotothemoviesbutwearenotgoingtobuypopcornandthey lose theirminds,we interpret that information as you are soungrateful,youaresospoiled.

But if we can reinterpret in thosemoments by beingmindful ourselves –mychildishavinganemotionalexperiencethat’sveryrealtothem,ifIamworriedaboutentitlementandthespoiledandallofthat,that’sadisciplineissueIcanbe working on overtime but in this moment my child has stress hormonesrunning through their little bodies, they are really upset and from anattachment perspective that’s when they need me to be present most andprovidesafe,seen,soothedandsecureexperiences,thosearethefourS’sthatDanSiegeltalksaboutfromattachment.

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Andwhenwedothatwebuildthatupstairsbrainthatallowsthemtobemoreself-disciplinedandmakebetterdecisionsovertime.

Jacqueline: Yes, oh it’s such a massive win and I love that what you are doing is givingparentsperspectiveshift.IwanttotalkalittlebitmoreabouthowtohelpusasparentsgetfromthatdownstairstotheupstairsbraininthemomentbutIknowthatitstartswithinsightsoryouandDantalkaboutMindSightaboutwhenweunderstandhowourbrainworks andwe…well there is somany things that Iwanttosayfromyourworkbutlet’sdiveinalittlebitmoretohowtohelpthatparentinthemomentwhoisabouttofliptheirlid.

Tina: HeisokaysoacoupleofthingsyouknowIrememberreadingstuffandhearingstuff and I would try it and a lot of that stuff doesn’t work, and everybody’sdifferent.Countingto10doesnotworkforme,thatjustgivesyoumoretimetostewonhowhorribleIthinkmychildisinthatmoment.

What I’ve learned by setting the brain and the body especially whenwe talkaboutbrainfromaninterpersonalneurobiologyviewwhichisthefieldthatDanhassortofbecomethefatherofalongwithAlanShorin inandLueKosalino, isthatwhenwetalkaboutthebrainwealwaysmeanthebrainandbody,partofthewholenervoussystemsowehavetotalkaboutthewholebodyeverytimewesaybrainandwealsohavetothinkabouthowthebrainisinthecontextofrelationships.

SowhenIthinkaboutthat,whenIthinkaboutregulatingmyownbrainandmyownreactivityIhavetoreallyconsiderbodyandrelationships.

SowhatImeanbythatisverypracticalandthatisthereisalotofsciencethat’stellingus that thewaywebreatheandthewaywemoveourbodiesactivatesdifferentneuralnetworksandimpactsouremotions.SowhatImeanbythatisif I were to start breathing really rapidly and walk aroundmy room in like afrenetic pacing, pacing, it would activate the neural networks that areassociatedwiththatbreathingandmovementpatternwhichwouldbeanxiety,frustration,allofthosethings.

If instead, I sloweddownmypaceof talking, I takedeeperbreaths, I slowmymovementdownorIevenmaybemovemybodyinareallyfloppypostureorIdo something really silly and playful with my body, that’s going to activatedifferentneuralnetworks.SowhatIwouldsayiswhat’sbeenmosteffectiveintheparentinggroups that I’ve taughtandwith thepeople I’veworkedwith inmy office, is a couple of things that we know helps shift our emotions reallyquickly.

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Sothisisforinthemoment,thereisalsoworkwecandokindofovertimebutinthemomentIwouldsaymoveyourbody,jumpingupanddown,push-upsonthewall,dancing,takingalaparoundyourlivingroomoryourbackyardbecausethatreleasesnervoussystemarousalandittellsthebrainyouknowsomethingcanshifthere.

Sillinessandplayfulnessishugeifyoucanmakefunofyourselvesifyoucanuseweirdaccents,makethingsup,thatcanreallyhelp.Musicisactuallysomethingthatshiftsourstateofmindveryquickly.Soyoumayhaveaplaylistatthereadythat’syourlikedon’tyellatmykidsplaylistthatyoucankindofputon.

Sometimesithelpsinamomentthatyouknowit’sreallydifficultlikebathtimeorwhatever, I learned this fromDr.BonnieGoldstein, tohaveoneearbud inyourear,youcanstillhearyourchildbutyouarelisteningtomusicthatkindofkeepsyouregulated.Thosearesomethingsthatcanhelp.Butthetruth isthemostimportantthingisourownongoingwork,reflectingourselvesafterwe’vehaddayswithourchildren,momentswithourchildrenthatwedidn’tfeelgoodabout thatkindofactivatedsome lid flipping forus to reflecton thatand thekindofdosomesensemakingourselvesaboutwhatwasthataboutforme?IsthereaneedthatIhavethat’snotbeingpaidattentionto?Istheresomethingunresolvedinthepastthatislikeatriggerforme?

Sometimes ithelpstoworkwithatherapist journalingcanreallyhelp. Ihighlyrecommend Dan Siegel’s book with Mary Hartsell called Parenting from theInsideOutwhichI’msureyoutalkabout.Havequestionsandactivitiesforself-reflectiontohelpusworkthroughsomeofthat,soourownongoingworkandthenfindwhatworksforyouinthemoment;humor,movement,silliness,allofthesethingswhichactuallytypicallyaidcooperationfromchildrentoosothat’sadoublebenefitofthat.

Jacqueline: Yesbecause the fun thing is thatasweuse like this silliness togetoutofourdownstairsbrainitactuallyhelpsourkidsdothesamething.

Tina: That’sabsolutelyoneofthebesttoolsforcooperationandnot justwhentheyarereally little. Imean Ihaveparents inmyoffice Isay lookplayfulness is thekeytocooperationandtheywillkindofslumptheirbodiesandIpickupinthatmoment that there is like an internal eye rolling, they are being polite, theydon’twant to roll theireyesatmebut I say I knowyoudon’twant todo thewholesonganddance,doyou?

And I have parentswho say I don’twant to do an effing puppet show to getthemtoputtheirshoeson!Whycan’ttheyjustputtheireffingshoeson!SoI

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getthatbutsometimeswedon’twanttoputintheeffortofbeingsillybuttheamount of energywe put forth in the battle is somuchmore than just okaywhatcanIdotomakethisreallyweird?IamgoingtowalkweirdovertolikesayI’mgoingtowearyourshoestoday,don’tyouputthemonorpleasedon’tgetinyourcarseattodaybecausemyimaginaryfriendissittinginthereandifyouclimbin[27:35inaudible]andI’mgoingtohavetodothatwe’redancetocalmherdown,theycan’twaittogetintothecarseat.

Butevenwitholderkids, sopeoplewant toknowokay, that’sgreat for littlesbut Iwill say evenmy fourth-grader andmy seventh grader, it still absolutelyworkswith them especially if Imake up accents or pretend I am awaiter orwhatever.

But my 16-year-old recently I had asked him to come downstairs to dosomethingformeandhe…hejustkeptnotcomingdownstairs.Hewasupinhisslothtreehousebecausehe’sateenagerandsoIwentupstairsandIcouldhavegoneintotheweaskyoutodosolittlearoundhere,youhavesuchagreatlife–I can’t believe you… I couldhave gone into thewhole lecturing reactive thingbutinsteadIhavethepresencetobeintegratedbeforeIwenttohisroomandIwalkedinhisroomandIjusthadalittlesmirkonmyfaceandhewasinhisbedwithhisheadphonesonandlisteningtohismusic–he’shuge,he’slike6foot,Iwentandjustsatonhim.

AndIsaidIamsogladyoudidn’tcomedownstairstodothedishesliketoaskbecauseIreallyneedaplacetositdown.Andhejustkindoflikemom,you’resoweird [29:44 inaudible]andhe camestraightdownstairs. Even that kindofsilliness ispotentially stillworkablewith teenagers if youareboth in the rightstateofmind.

Jacqueline: Yeah,that’sfabulous.AndIdoknowinthemomentitcanbechallengingbutIlovethat’swhyyou’retalkingaboutbrainstormingandtryingthingsliketherestofthetimetryingtounderstandwhyit’ssohardinthemoment.

I constantly amworkingwithmoms to try andhelp us stop that critical voicetoo, right? Because we can, sometimes we use the information just to beatourselves up worse. You have so many concepts there that are helpful. OnemoreIwantedtohighlightisyoursharkmusicideathatinthemomentIthinkcan be helpful, do you want to explain what youmean by turning down thesharkmusic?

Tina: Yes.Sothiscamefromawonderfulvideothatthiswonderfulprogramcalledthecircle of insecurity that’s an attachment-based intervention program created.

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And basically what it is, is if you imagine yourself walking down kind of awoodedpaththatleadstoabeautifuloceanandyouarehearingreallyrelaxingclassicalmusicandyoukindofimagineyourselfwalkingdownthepathwiththisbeautifulmusicandwhatthatexperienceislike.

Andthenifyourewindthetapeinyourmindandyouwalkthroughthatsamewoodedareadowntothisbeautifuloceanbutyouhearthejawsmusicplayingin the background instead as you are walking down the path, it’s a totallydifferentexperience,right?Andit’sthisreallywonderfulconcept,thisideathatoftentimeswhenthingsgowronginaninteractionwithourchildwhereweareinareactivestateorweamplifysomethingthatdoesn’tneedtobe,it’sbecausewearerespondingtothesharkmusicthat’splaying.

We’vegot sharkmusic that’splaying that is sortof thisominouskindof thingthatwearenotbeingfullypresenttowhat’sactuallyhappeninginthemomentbutwe’vegotfearthatwearenotawareoforwehavereactivity,orourownkind of critical voice or being critical of our children – we have somethingplayinginthebackgroundthat’s influencingwhatwearedoinginthemomentthatwearenotprobablyfullyawareof.

Sooneexampleofthatwouldbeifyouhaveonechildthat’sreallystruggledinmath or who has not been really responsive in turning in homework orwhateverandthenanotheroneofyourchildrencomeshomewith likeaContheirmath test, you’re likeherewegoagain.Wearehaving todealwith thisdealwiththisnowwearehaving…andsoyouaren’treallyrespondingtothatchildmindfully in themoment, you are responding to the sharkmusic that’splaying.

Andwhathappensisthesharkmusicpullsusoutofthemomenttoreallyreadwhat’shappeningwithourselvesandwhat’sreallyhappeningwithourchildrenand so oftentimes sharkmusic can be about unresolved things fromour ownchildhoodswherewedidn’thavesomeonewhohelpeduskindofmakessenseofthosekindsofthings.SometimesithasmoretodowithourownexperienceslikeIwilljusttellaquickpersonalexample.

Ihaveautoimmunestuffand Iwasvery,very illanddebilitated inmymid-20sforacoupleofyears.Andwehaveasonwhohasstruggledwithsomeprettysignificanthealth issuesforacoupleofyearsandthereweretimeswithhim,Imeanobviouslyitwouldbeabsolutelynormalandappropriatewhenyouhaveachildwhoischronicallyillforanumberofyearswhosemissingalotofschool;that in andof itself is very stressful. So I don’t blamemyself for having times

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whereIfeltfrustratedandwhereIwasn’taspatientasIwouldhavewantedtobe,Ithinkthat’snormalandtypical.

Howeverbecauseofthesharkmusicwithmyownsortofhelplessnessaroundmyownhealth issues, theywere times that I think that’swhatwasplaying inthebackgroundofmymind,ahelplessness,whenyourchildissufferinginsomeway and you feel powerless to help them, that is an awful, awful feelingregardlessofwhatthatisandthereweretimeswhenthatwassopainfulformebecause of my own sharp music as well that I would sort of shut downemotionallyandIwasn’tempathetic.IwouldsayIknowyouarehurtingbutyouwillhavetodoitanywaysandIwouldgetreallyimpatientandun-empatheticinaway that felt awful tome and awful to him thatwehad to do some repairworkonbutitwasthesharkmusicwasreally influencingwhatwashappeningreallyinthemoment.Doesthatmakesense?

Jacqueline: OhandIlovethatyouaresharingthatexamplebecauseitshowsthatevenyouwritingthebookthrough…yeah,stillhadthechallenge.

Tina: AndIwanttobegentlewithmyselfaboutthattooandnotbecritical.AndIwilltell you, I love that youmentioned thatbecauseweare sohardonourselvesbecauseitmatterssomuchtous,right?

Ithinkthethingthathashelpedmethemostissharingmystory,whateveritis.ImeanIrememberaftertheripyourtongueoutstorywithmysonBen,Icalledmyfriendwho…oursonswerebestfriendsinpreschool,theywerelittlethree-year-olds together and they are still best friends at 16 which is sweet. But IcalledherandIsaidohmygoshIdidtheworstthingandshesaidwelllet’sgotoIKEAandgetmeatballsandyoucantellmeallaboutit.

Wewentto IKEAand I toldheraboutthisand Isaid I just feelsoawfulaboutthis,Ican’tbelieveIsaidthat.Shesaidoh,thatthing!Letmetellyouaboutmy[34:56 inaudible] and she also was like don’t be so hard on yourself. Oh mygosh,youaresuchanamazingmom.

And I think our friends and hopefully our significant otherswill say to us thekindsofthings ingentlewaysweshouldbesayingtoourselves likeyouaresogoodmostofthetimeandofcourseyouarefrustratedandkindofgiveusthatatyouandresponse.Soifyoufindyourselfbeingreallycritical,shareyourstorywithsomeoneyouknowwillbekindandhelpchangethecriticalvoiceforyou.

Jacqueline: Yeah,exactly.Andevenforamomwhofeelslikesofarinherparentingyou’vebeen mostly yelling critical, whatever you’ve done and moving on is what’s

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important.Solet’stalkaboutbecauseIknowyoutalkalotabouttheconceptofthe moments when our kids are acting up “misbehaving” are real primeopportunities the catch. So let’s talkabout the [35:53 inaudible]. You’vegotatantrumingchild,youknowthatyoucanseetheyareintheirreactivebrain,notthereceptivebrain,whatdoyoudo?

Tina: Okay, I love it. I’m so glad thatwe’re going to get to talk about this becausewhat I’m about to say is often counterintuitive and it’s absolutelycountercultural okay. So let me give are really specific example, I think thatwouldbemorehelpful.Somytwoyoungest,LukeandJP;Lukewasabouteightor nine in the story and JPwas about five or six in the story. And Luke camerunning intothebathroom, IwasbrushingmyteethorputtingonmymakeupandLukesaid,hewascryingandhesaidJPfivestarredme.

Now Ididn’t knowwhat thatwasbutapparently if you slapped someonehadenoughanditleavesthehandprintlikethefivepointsofastar,that’scalledfivestarring.

Jacqueline: Oh,Ididn’tknowthateither.

Tina: Yeah,Ilearnallkindsofstufffrommyboys.SohesaidJPfivestarredtomeandIsaidohmygoshwhatdoesthatmean?Whatisthat?Andhesaidheslappedme onmy back. So I lifted up his shirt and I could see JPs little handprint onLuke’s back. And I said oh my goodness Luke are you okay? Do you wantsomethingcoldtoputonit?SoIcomfortedLukeinthemoment.HewaseightornineofthetimesohewasprettyokayatthattimeandhesaidIamokay,IamokayandIsaidIamgoingtogotalktoJP,areyouokay?Andhesaidyes.

So now is the time, now is the disciplinemoment. It’s time to deal with theperpetrator, right? So I come around the corner and JP is standing there[panting]andhismusclesare tight,hiseyesarewide, ifhewereaDragonhewouldhavesmokecomingoutofhisearsandmouth.Sohe’sfuriousandallofthephysiologicalsignsofbeinginthefight,flight,freezereactivestateofmindarerightinfrontofme.He’sbreathingquickly,theeyesarewide,themusclesaretense,theteetharegritso Iknowhe’s inthisplacethat IoftencalledtheredzonewhichIwilltalkaboutinaminuteifyouwouldlikemeto.

Sohe’sinthisreactivestate–okay.Soherearesomethingswemightconsiderinthemoment.Wemightsaywhydidyouhityourbrother?Whatintheworldwere you thinking? I don’t hit you, why would you hit your brother? Andyelled/lectured/pretendwe are asking a question; I amnot really askingwhy,

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right?IamsayingitasaquestionbutIamreallylecturingandyellingandmad.SothatmightbesomethingIwoulddo.

Somethingasaparentmightconsideristogiveanimmediateconsequencelikeyouclearlycan’tbewithpeoplerightnow,gotoyourroomandIamcancelingyourplaydatebecauseyoucan’tbewithpeoplerightnow–so Imightgiveaconsequence.

I might say go in there and tell your brother you are sorry right now. That’sreallyproblematicbythewaybecausehedoesn’tfeelsorryatall.Hewishedhehad10starredhim,hedoesn’t feelbadatallbecausehe is ina reactive fightstate.OrworseIcouldsaysomethinglikeifyouwanttofeelwhatitfeelsliketogethitI’mgoingtohityou.Sothesearesomeofthetypicalwaysparentsmightrespond. Now what I am going to do in the moment is only because I amintegratedandcalminthemomentandI’vebeendoingmyworkandIworkedreallyhardatbeingintentionalandit’sagoodmomentforme.

SoIlookatJP,he’sfurious,he’sabsolutelydonesomethingwrong,Iabsolutelyneed to discipline him– by that of course Imean teach and build skills and Iabsolutelyamgoingtoaddressthebehavior.Thisapproachbythewayisnotatallaboutpermissiveparenting,it’sallaboutsettinglimitsandboundariesandallofthosethingswithalotofconnectionandempathy.

So I lookat JPand Idosomethingthat’sverycounterculture. I say:ohJP,youare somad!Comehere,what’sgoingon?And I respond tohimas ifhewerephysicallyhurt. Ifhewerephysicallyhurt Iwould say:oh JP,whathappened?Comehereletmehelpyou.SoIrespondtohimwithempathyandcomfortandofferofconnection.

Heimmediatelybeginstotellhisstory.Iwantedtohughimbutwhensomeoneisinthatstateofmindtheyoftendon’twanttobeheld,it’smoredysregulating.So I just hadmy hand on him and hewas like –wewere on the phonewithgrandma,IwastellingmystoryandLukekeptinterruptingmeandhetoldthestory and Iwanted to tell it – herehe is, the little guy, right, the youngestofthreeboysandalwaysfightingforavoice.AndsohesaidthenwhenwegotoffthephoneItriedtotellhimIdidn’tlikethatLuke,IwantedtotellthestoryandLukemadefunofmeandtoldme–toobadsoIjustfivestarredhim.

He’s likemom, I tried reallyhard tousemywordsbut Ihitmybreakingpointand I went after him, that’s kind of Luke’s. And I do again something verycountercultural,IprovidemoreempathyandvalidationIsaidohJP,youwantedtotellthestory,thatwassofrustrating.AndthenyoutrytotalktoLukeandhe

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madefunofyouandthatjustmadeitevenmoremad,isthatright?AndsoIamjust validatingwith tons of empathy. I amusingmy right hemisphere a lot ofnonverbal stuff, the toneof voice, the softness inmy face, touch, all of thesenonlogicalthings.

Letmejustthrowin,whatweoftenarecompelledtodoisusemoreofourlefthemispheresandsaywhydidyougetsoupsetaboutthat,that’snotthatbigofadeal?ImeanImightdismissanduselogicbutthosesystemsaresoseparate,right?

Likeifachildisafraidofamonsterintheirroom,wecan’tsaythereisnosuchthingasmonstersandthechildsays:ohgood,nowIdon’tfeelafraidanymore–like itdoesn’twork thatwaybecause logicalandemotional systemswhenweareupsetarenotintegratedwitheachother.

SoIsay:thatwassofrustrating.AndhestartstocalmdownandIcanseethephysiologicalchanges;thebreathingstartstocalmdown,theeyesaren’tsobig,nowtheysoften.Hismuscletonestartstosoften,he’salittlefloppier,hemightmoveintocryingthentokindofkeepreleasinghowfrustratedhe isandIpullhimtomeandIholdhimandIjustwaitedafewsecondsholdinghim.

And nowhe’s back into a receptive coolmoment. So now is the time I couldreally do the discipline. So it’s back to this whole idea we have in which isstrategy number one in The Whole Brainchild but it’s the framework of theentire No Drama Discipline book called connect and redirect. So what I justtalked about there is the correct part which often is really approaching withempathy and soothing and sometimes one of the best strategies is gettingbeloweyelevelwhichwecantalkabouttoosothat’sthatpart.

Nowtimefortheredirectnowisthetimewhereweaddressthedirectionofhisbehaviorinthefutureandreallydealwithwhathappensandteach.

So Isaidtohim:youreallyhurt lookandthen Ipaused.Nowsomethingreallyimportant happens here.Whenhe is a receptive state, neverwhenhe is in areactivestatebutwhenhe is inareceptivestateand Isaytohim–youreallyhurt Luke or I tell him that what you did was not okay, something reallypowerfulhappens,somethingmorepowerfulthananythingIcandotomychildinthenameofdisciplinelikeaconsequenceorspankingoranythinglikethat;isI say this and his head drops like this. And it’s this moment of a little bit ofhealthy guilt, not shame. Shame is “I amadefectivehorribleperson.”Guilt isthatconscience,thatuhoh,feelinglikeIdidsomethingwrongIshouldn’thavedone.

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Andifyouthinkaboutthisfromanevolutionaryperspective,wehadto live intribes with people. If we did not, back in the day when we were out in theelements with the Tigers chasing us, if we weren’t with people we wereprobablygoing todie.Andsoourbrainshavebuilt in thisveryprimitive thingcalledaconscienceandthatwhenwedosomethingthatviolatesthemoresofourpeople,wefeelguiltandwefeelbadandit’skindofanickyfeelingandthatprogramsthebraintosay:don’tdothatagain.Because it’ssuchabadfeelingweavoiddoingthatinthefuture,itchangesourbehavior.Andifwedidn’thavethatwewouldkeepviolatingthemoresofourgroupandwewouldgetkickedoutandwewouldgeteaten,right?

SoIamallowingJPinthismomenttofeelthatguiltandsothatheaddropsandIsay Icanseethatyou feelbadabouthurtingLukeandsothen Icansaywhatcan you do differently next time? And how did you know youwere somad?Howdidyoufeelthat inyourbody?Andsoamaskingabout insight;whatdidthat feel like foryou?Whatcouldyoudodifferentlynext time?Andthen IgoalsotonotjustbuildingthatinsightbuttheskillsofempathyandsayinghowdoyouthinkyoucanmakeitrightwithLuke?

Nowifhe’sstillinareactivestateIcouldsay–tellhimIamsorryandifhesayssomething like that I know he’s not ready. I also know, my response in themomentwhich is to say I think if you say like that, thatprobablywon’tmakethingsright.Solet’seitherwaitorlet’scomeupwithadifferentsolution.

Soattheendofthat,peopleoftenaskedmewhenI tell thatstory–okaybutdidn’t you give hima consequence?Well, I go back tomyoriginal question–what is discipline about? It’s about teaching andbuilding skills.Did I teach?–Yes.DidIbuildskills?Yes.DidIhelphimrepairwithhisbrother?Yes.Iamdone.

AndinfactIwouldargue,andIamnotuniversallyagainstconsequences,IthinktheymakemoresenseaschildrengetolderandolderandthewaywedothemreallymattersbutIamalmostalways…Ialmostalwaysfindthatconsequencesarecounterproductivebecausehad Ihad thatmoment, insteadofhaving thatreflective dialogue with JP, that connect and redirect, if I had gone with theconsequenceslikeIamcancelingyourplaydate,youcan’tbewithpeopletodayor something like that, all of his attention would have gone to me and howmean Iamtodothis tohimand insteadof feelingthatguiltandhis intentionbeing on himself and is almost holding him more accountable and moreresponsibleforhisbehavior.

SoIoftenfindthatconsequencesarecounterproductive.

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Jacqueline: Yeah,absolutelyand I lovethatyoutouchedonthataswellbecausethat’ssohuge. So yeah and when you said that this is countercultural – absolutely! –Becauseweseetantrumingchildandsomeofthesharpmusicthatplays–thechildbeingbadorwillful.Howaboutjusttalkingaboutthedifferencebetweencan’tandwon’t.Wegetmadbecauseourchildwhatwefigureisshouldbeabletoisabletocomplyandischoosingnotto,right?

Tina: Well I had an interesting interaction with a couple in my office and I wasbasically explaining to them that their five-year-old’s dysregulation and hismajor tantrums, were a can’t, it was because his nervous system wasdysregulatedandthathedidn’thavethecapacitytohold it together.This isalittle boywhohad some sensory sensitivities and someother things going onbutallofushaveacapacitythatchangesallthetime.SoIwasexplaining,IsaidyouknowIthinkthesemomentsareacan’tforyourchildthanawon’tandsotheideaisthatyourchildcan’tcontrolthemselvesorhandlethemselveswellinacertainmomentasopposedtotheyjustaredecidingthattheywon’t,likethechildisgoinghmm,IthinkI’mgoingtofallapartno,I’mjustnotgoingtobehavethewayIamsupposedto.

Andsothedad,as Iwassayingthis I thinkthis isacan’t foryourson inthesemoments – of course there are won’t moments also but the dad’s bodylanguagewaslikehewasnotbuyingwhatIwassayingandsoIsaidtohim,whydon’t you… and getting a sense from you that this isn’t resonating with you.Whydon’tyouarguewithme?

AndhesayswellIdon’tbuythatbecausehehandleshimselfwelllotsofothertimes.Isaidtohimletmeaskyouaquestion,asadadIamsureyouarepatientandlovingmostofthetime,yes?AndhesaidyesandIsaidsometimesyou’renot, right? Sometimes you are grumpy and reactive and you yell and he saidyeah. I said so you can be patient and loving but you just decide you won’tsometimes–and fortunatelyhe laughedand Ididgetpaid for that sessionsothatwasgood.

ButIsaidyouhavetorememberthatjustbecauseyoucansometimesdoesn’tmeanyoucanallthetime.Ourcapacitychangesandfluctuateswiththeamountofstresswe’reunder,howmuchsleepwe’vehad,howmanybattleswefoughtthatday.And I think sometimes it’shard toknow ifourchild’smisbehavior isbecause they just can’t in that moment, their little nervous systems are tootaxed or if it’s just that or if they won’t, that they could have handledthemselvesbetterbuttheyaredecidingnotto.

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ButIthinkwhatIwouldsayisthatIalwayswanttoerronthesideofgivingmychildthebenefitofthedoubtandIalsoknowthatifIapproachwithconnectionand empathy and validation it doesn’t matter if it’s a can’t or a won’t. If Iapproachwithwhat’sgoingon,youknowhere’saphraseIusedallthetimelikeIknowyouknowit’snotokay.Wellhere’sanexample

Akidsays toyou: Ihateyou;youaresostupid, like theysaysomethingreallydisrespectfultoyou.Weoftenrespondwith:youcan’trespondtomelikethat.Whichisareallydumbthingtosaybecausetheycan,theyjustdid,right?

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Tina: Sowhat Iwould say in thatmoment if Iwas inagoodstateofmind is to saywow,youarereallyangrywithmerightnoworsomethinglikeIknowyouknowit’snotokayforustotalktoeachotherlikethatinthishouse,inthisfamilysowhat’sgoingonforyou?SoIthinktheideaofIknowyouknowit’snotokaytofill in theblank sowhat’s goingon for you?And you are kindof creating thisspaceofopennessandreceptivity.

Andhere’sagoodwaytothinkaboutcan’tversuswon’tandactuallyDanandIarewritingaboutthis.Wehavebeentalkingaboutthisandteachingthisforanumberofyearsbutit’sjustnotgoingtogointotheyesbrainbook.Whenwethinkaboutwhenourchildrenareinagoodstateofmindwheretheyareableto handle themselves well even something frustrating is going on, they are…theyhandlethemselveswell.

We can call that the green zone and it’s really similar to what Dan calls thewindow of tolerance, it’s what other people call kind of an optimal nervoussystemarousalwhereyourautonomicnervoussystemiswell-balanced.It’salsoreallysimilartotheriverofwell-beingwhereweareflexibleadaptive,coherent,energized and stable [50:23 inaudible] Dan haswritten about inmany books.But the green zone is where we have our self together and we can handleourselveswell.

Whenwe go into hyperarousal, so our nervous system gets revved up like JPandthefive-starstory;theeyesgetbig,themusclesgettense,wegointofight,flight, freeze, or heart rate is speeding, this is a state of hyperarousal, ournervoussystemisrevvedwayupwherewearelikeraarh!Andwhenweareinthis red zone, that’s when we often see aggressive behaviors; disrespectful,slammingdoors,kicking,biting,throwingthings,actingout,right?

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Andthentheoppositesideof that iswhatwecall thebluezoneandthebluezoneisshutdown.Thisisthehypo-arousalwhereyournervoussystemisturnedwaydown.Thisiskindoflikeacollapsedshutdownwherethechild’spostureisfloppy, the heart rate slows down and they reallywon’t talk, they are in thiskindofcollapsedstate.

Mostmisbehavior thathappens isbecausekids areoutsideof the green zoneand so really with the whole no drama discipline approach is about and Iactually teachthisgreenzonestuff.There isacamp in thewoodsofnorthernMinnesota Camp Chippewa for boys where my boys go and I train the staffevery year. So these are 20, 22-year-old guys who are camp counselors,understandaboutthisgreenzonestuff[51:38crosstalk].

SowhatIsaytothemiswhatIsaytoeducatorsandwhatIsaytocliniciansandparentisreallytheNoDramaDisciplinebookIthinkofasbasicallytwothings.Oneiswhenkidsareoutsidethegreenzoneournumberonejobistogetthembackintoit.That’sthereceptivephase,that’sthelearningzoneandwedothatthrough connection and empathy and all of that. Once they are back in thegreen,that’swhenwedothelimitsettingandtheboundariesandwetalkaboutmakingrepairandallofthosethings,right?

SotheNoDramaDisciplineapproachisreallythatconnectpart,it’slikegettingthem back into the green when they are out and over time expanding theirgreenzoneovertimeand that’sbuilding that resilience.So it’s twopiecesandwhat’s essential that you’ve hit on somuch here in a really importantway isthatourownheartygreenzoneisessentialtodoingallofthisandsothat’sjustaquestionforustoaskourselvesisyouknowwhereitbecomesacan’tforusandforourchildreniswhereourgreenzonestartsshrinking.Andsotothinkofreflectingforourselves:whatdoIneedinordertokeepmygreenzoneheartyso I can stay in the green zone is much as I can because the red zone isespeciallycontagious.

Whenourchildrengointotheredzonewetendtogointotheredzonetooandsowehavetohavethatheartygreenzonetokeepourselvesthere.

Jacqueline: That’s fabulous. So that concept, I love those conceptual concepts because inthemomentwhenwearestartingtoget intoourreactivebrain Iknowour IQgoesdown.OurEQ,ouremotionalintelligence,ourIQ,everythinganditiswhywesaysuchstupidthings.

Sobasicconcepts like: I’vegottogetback intothegreenzoneandgoingbackaboutgettingsilly,whenparentscanseethatyesinthemomentthelastthing

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youwanttodo isgetsillywhenyouaremadbut it’sactuallyconceptuallygetoh, but if I doone thing I lovedpassingon a years ago, a parent gavemeanexample of lying down on the floor in the middle of something, just dosomethingsillybecauseyourbrainandyourconceptofmovinginthemoment,that’s so wonderful because when you start running around, your kids lookdifferent, you are looking different and then before you know it you haveregainedyourabilitytothinkwhichisjustsobeautiful.

IwantedtocirclebacktooneoftheconceptsherebecauseIthoughtitwouldbereallycurious,yourbeloweyelevelconcept.Iwouldliketobrieflytalkaboutthat.

Tina: So that is unbelievably powerful. It’s the same couple I was just telling youaboutwhereIwashavingargumentswiththedadaboutthecan’tversuswon’tthing.

SoIamsittingintherewiththiscoupleandinthemomentIwasexplainingthisideaandaswestartedtotalkabout it Isaidtothedad look,whathappens inthemoment your kid is demanding Iwant theblue cupandhe’s freakingoutaboutwanting thebluecup,whathappens?Andhesayswell Ialwaysendupyelling,alwaysendupyellingathimandtellinghimtogotohisroom.AndIwassaying this is a can’t for your kidbut youarepunishinghim for somethinghecan’t help which is actually something I love to talk to educators about withtheirbehavioralsystemthattheyuseintheclassroomthatthereisoftenalotofpunishingofchildrenforthingstheycan’thelp.

ButanywayssoIamtalkingtothisdadaboutthisandIsaidsowhathappensinthosemoments is you have an aggressive look on your face and youhave anaggressiveposture,youarewaggingyourfingerandanaggressivetoneofvoiceandyourchildhasnootheroptionbuttogofurtherintotheredzone,right?

And sowhat couldwe do and so he’s going to go intomore fight, flight andfreeze.Andso I saywhatcouldwedo to tell yourchild’sdownstairsbrain it’sokay, you’re safe, it’s okay to come back to the green zone? And actuallythought about my dog who has a trauma history; we’ve adopted him andwheneverhegetsafraidheactuallykindsoflikecrouchesdownreallylowandsoIthoughtoh,that’sinteresting.SoIsaidtothedad,wouldyoubewillingtotry an experiment? The next time a child goes into the red zone, into thisreactivestatewherehecan’tregulate,let’stryanexperiment.

Iwantyoutodotwothings;oneIwantyoutoget inareallyrelaxedposture,beloweye level, not at eye level butbeloweye level.And Iwant you to stop

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talking so much and stop lecturing so much and I want you to only say onething. I want you to use an empathetic tone of voice and I want you to saysomethingempathetic abouthis feelings like:ohbuddy, youare so frustratedrightnow.Andthesecondthingyoucansayis:Iamrightherewithyou.

AndasIsaidthatInoticemomwelledupwithtears,dadsoftenedandsonowwhen I teachanaudience,as Ioftenwill say that several timesandyoucan…peoplecanfeel thedifferenceofhavingsomeonesaytoyou– Iamrightwithyou.Likethatchangedtheworldespeciallyifyouareupset.

Sothecoupleleft,theycameacoupleofweekslater,thedadsaidTina,Ihavehad to admit thatwhen I left I toldmywife I am never doing that. That’s sostupid. I thought he needed stricter discipline and by that he meantpunishment. And he said but one day he was having this massive monstermeltdownand I… inanactofdesperation,satonthefloor, leanedback inmyarms and said probably not very empathetically: I can tell you having a hardtimerightnowbutIamrightherewithyou.MychildcalmeddownfasterthanI’veeverseenbutandhesaidbutIstayedcalmerthanI’veeverbeenandIhadtosaythatthisstrategyisprobablythethingthatmostpeoplecomebacktomeandsaythatismagic!

And a couple of things happen. I mean one is again back to that movementpiecewhendadisstandingoverhischilddoingthis,whichneuralnetworksaregetting activated? The aggressive red zone neural networks are gettingactivated.Versusifhesittinginarelaxedposture,withinacoupleofminuteshehasatotallydifferentneuralnetworkthat’sgettingactivated.

AndAmyCuddyoutofStanford,didthatTedtalkaboutthepowerposeversusthe powerless monster and how within three minutes there are hormonalchanges. This is a real amazing thing! So that’swhathappened therebut alsothisdadmoving intothisstatewherehewasofferingconnectionandcomfortandwhatDanandIarewritingaboutinthisnextbookistheideathat it’stheparentsthatprovidethebumperstothatgreenzone.

And so when you think about what keeps our kids in the green zone is thatconnectionsittinglikeIamrightherewithyou,IamhavingahardtimebutIcantoleratethesenegativestatesasopposedto–youarehavingatantrum,yougopullyourselftogetherandonceyou’vegotyourlifebackinorderthenIwouldbeinconnectionwithyou.

Because then what happens is they start going into dysregulated states thentheyknowtheyaregoingtogetintroubleandbeontheirown,itamplifies.And

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so I think providing that connection overtime reduces the drama in thedisciplineprocessbecausethekidknows if I start tohaveahardtimeand fallapartandactout,someoneisgoingtohelpmeanditreducesthatreactivity.

And I think,whenwethinkabout, ifakid is in the redzoneor thebluezone,that’sabsolutelyacan’t.Iftheyareinthegreenzonethat’smuchmorewherethey may be more manipulative and more sort of the won’t but either way,connection and those reflective dialogues is the answer that builds skills andteachesovertimesothatweseelessofthat.

Jacqueline: This is somassive. I’m soexcitedandyouknowpeople think that I am takingsomenotes.WhatwasthatTina?

Tina: It’s a huge shift. It’s a total huge shift and I think that’swhat I get so excitedaboutandwhyIwanttoshareitwitheducatorsandclinicians.InfactaFridayIamgivingatalktoagroupofmentalhealthprofessionalswhocounselparentstopunishanddothesekindsofthingsbutIthinkhereisthemassiveshiftandthatisthatifwehavetobeinthegreenzone,inthereceptivestatetolearnandtobuildskillsthenmostofwhatwedoinourcultureinthenameofdisciplinesendskidsaway from thegreen zone, it sends them inamore reactive state!And obviously if we are inflicting physical pain through spanking. And by theway, 50%of parents,US parents are anti-spanking, 50% are pro-spanking but94%ofchildrenarespankedatleastoncebythetimetheyarethree,it’salmostauniversalchildhoodexperience.

Butwhenwe think about this,what doesphysical paindo? It sendsus into areactive defensive states, it makes us less likely that we will learn and againfromthatattachmentscienceperspective, it’swhenweare inphysicalpainorwhenweareinstatesofterrorthatwemostneedtogotoourcaregiverbutifour caregiver is the source of our fear or the source of our physical pain, itactuallycreatesbiologicaldisorganizationintermsofthosecompetingcircuitsinthebrain.

Onecircuitsaysgotomycaregiver, IamhurtingandIamafraid.Andanothercircuitthatsayssomethingisscaryandpainful;getawayfromit.Andsothatformeisthebiggestargument,besidesallthehumanrightsonesaswell intermsofspanking.Butmostofwhatwedointhiscountryinthenameofdisciplineiscounterproductivetoteachingandlearningandthat’swhywearecallingittheno drama approach because it’s about connection and introduces reactivitybothonthepartofthechildandtheparent.

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Jacqueline: It’smassiveand Iwas thinking it is so funbecausebefore I encounteredyourwork and got into it more, I didn’t understand why the lying on the floorexampleworkssowellbutwecan’tbeinourangerbrainwhenwearelyingonthe floor because our whole physiology says to us we are not in a powerposition[01:01:14crosstalk].

Tina: …significant other and your [01:01:17 inaudible] people below eye level, itworkswithotheradultstoo.

Jacqueline: Yeah, just absolutely brilliant! And Iwill share, one of the things I love that…because I started off as an angry serious depressed mom and really seriousstrugglesandover theyearshavebecome lightandmuchmore joyful–yeah,andIloveit.Ilovethatyoualsoreferencedthepowerofdoingyourownworkandhavingourtearsandwhateverweneedtodotogethere.

Soourhourhasgoneso,soquickly.IreallywanttohaveyoubackandIknowwehavetowrapupfornow.DoyouwanttoendwithbesidestellingeveryonetogooutandgetacopyofyourbookandIdon’thaveawholerangeofithere…butbesidestellingpeoplegooutandgetyourbook,checkoutyourwebsite,doyouhavealastthingyouwanttoleaveuswith?

Tina: Well I would just say yes. Of course I’ve got tons of articles on my websitewww.TinaBryson.com and I have a clinical practice called thewww.thecenterforconnection.org that is based in interpersonal neurobiologyandinterdisciplinaryanditisanamazingthinginPasadenaCaliforniathatIamreallyexcitedabouttakingthislenstothecommunity.

But what I would say is that the most important thing is to think about ourchildrenastheseamazingpeoplewhoneedusmorethaneverinthisconfusinguncertain world and that when we think about discipline as teaching, it willchangeeverythingwedoinstead.

It requiresus tohaveapause in themomentand to saywhat is it Iwantmychild to learn here andwhat’s the bestway to do that? And I think just thatpause and that shift. And then it’s about thinking most of what we do fordiscipline is sort of a fly by the seat-of-the-pants whatever instinct comes tomind and I am absolutely all about parents trusting their instinct about theirchildrenbutonlywhenthose instinctshavebeenreflecteduponbecause I forone,instinctinthemomentisoftenterrible.

Soareactiveinstinctisdifferentfromathoughtfulinstinct.SoIwouldsayfocusagainjustinthemoment,thiskindofparentingtakespractice,bepatientwith

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yourselfandI thinka lotofwhatgets inthewayofparentsdisciplining inthisway and having these more reflective dialogues and providing empathy andconnectioninsteadofgoingtothreatsandpunishmentandallofthosekindsofthings,isfearthatifwedoitthiswayourchildrenwillbespoiledorwhatever.

And so I just want to be really clear this is not about setting them someboundaries, setting them somemuchmore effectiveways to build skills overtime and that the research is very clear thatwe cannot spoil our children byprovidingthemwithtoomuchconnection,toomuchempathy,toomuchlove.It’s the area where it gets dangerous is if we are not setting limits andboundaries so we can absolutely do that through reflective dialogues andthroughconnectionsoanyways,thankyou.

Jacqueline: Fabulous,fabulous.AndIlovewhatyousaidaboutinstincttoobecauseIknowwithsomanyparents,whenweareinourreactivebrainweareintheredzoneour instincts are horrific so yeah. So it’s really important that we are alwaysgettingtheinformationthatweneed.

SothankyousomuchDr.BrysonIamdelightedthatyoucameonandtookthetime, I look forward to having you on again and please everyone check outwww.TinaBryson.com and you can getmore information there. So thank youagainandIwillsaygoodbyefornow.

Tina: ThankyouJacqueline.

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