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6/7/2016 Interview with Chuck Ogsbury of Ome Banjos
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Interview with ChuckOgsbury of Ome
Banjos
Home Blog Interview with Chuck Ogsbury of Ome
Banjos
May 04, 2016
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Ome Banjos
We had the chance to sit down with Chuck Ogsbury, the
founder of Ode banjos and Ome banjos recently. We discussed
the history of the Ome banjo company, some of his banjo
building beliefs, how he goes about designing new
instruments, and more. Chuck Ogsbury is a living treasure in
the banjo community and has been building great banjos since
the late 1950s.
Menu
6/7/2016 Interview with Chuck Ogsbury of Ome Banjos
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When did you first start
making instruments?
I was going to college
here in Boulder
(Colorado) for
engineering and got
interested in my last
year there in folk music.
I grew up in Kentucky
so I grew up with a lot
of bluegrass and old
time music back there.
What part of Kentucky?
Louisville
I actually started playing guitar when I was 16 back there, but I
didn’t have a good teacher and had a lousy instrument, so I
didn’t go very far.
When I got into college, it was the late ‘50s - I was actually
walking through the area between the Engineering building
and the student union and heard this incredible music in this
little area where the mountain climbers hung out in, and it
turned out to be some guy playing the banjo and Judy Collins
playing the guitar - she was going to school there then. It kind
of blew me away, so I started getting involved with people who
played folk music back then. It was you know, the late ‘50s, the
Weavers at Carnegie Hall album blew me away like a lot of
people in my generation.
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So I started getting
back into playing
guitar and then
ended up getting
into the banjo. I
found some old
timers around here
who played
instruments. And
then I started
picking up these old
banjos, guitars, and
mandolins in the
junk shops in the
Denver/Boulder
area here, and
fixing them up and
selling them to my
student buddies and giving them a couple lessons.
Anyway… instruments were not easy to find here in the West
compared to the East Coast. There was a lot more older music
culture going on, and a lot of banjo shops around like the
Boston/Philadelphia area and what not.
How did you know how to fix up these instruments?
I just kind of taught myself. My mother was in the antique
business and I grew up around a lot of fine wood and metal
working. I got into trading antique firearms when I was 12
years old. By the time I was a teenager I was a pretty
significant dealer in antique firearms there. I’d fix up a lot of
old Civil War and late 19th century weapons. To me they’re
kind of like art forms in wood and metal actually. Of course a
lot of banjo guys also like antique firearms. They’re really
similar, they just do totally different things. I kind of call it a
common denominator - an art form in wood and metal. So I
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had some experience working with wood and metal and just
applied that to musical instruments. I didn’t really know what I
was doing too much.
And then - instruments were hard to find and I was still in
school, and I just had this flash one day of making banjos with
an aluminum pot. So I had a friend who was a machinist in the
physics department at CU (University of Colorado Boulder) and
we had a prototype sand cast pot made up, and I stuck what I
think was a Kay banjo neck on it, and when we put it together
it sounded really good, so I just decided - “Wow, this sounds so
good” and … at the time it was really hard to find old, you
know, vintage instruments, and at the time the long neck 5-
string was coming into vogue. I actually bought one - a used
Vega longneck. I looked at it all over and I thought it was
lacking - actually the fret spacing was not correct. It had some
of the frets closer to the head were slightly larger spacing than
the one above it, this sort of thing - it just wasn’t made that
well. I thought “Wow, I can make a better instrument than this
for less money!” So anyway, I decided to make 100 of these
things.
That’s a lot of em!
Yeah… I don’t know why I did that! Anyway, I had kind of an
antique gun collection, I sold all of that and it financed my
banjo project.
I met an old woodworker, a Swedish woodworker - he must of
been pushing 80. He taught me a lot about woodworking. We
made the necks in his shop. That was the first 100 banjos. They
were all long necks and they sold for 70 bucks.
What kind of pot was it?
Sand cast aluminum. Just 11”, sand cast aluminum. It was
pretty simple. Totally simple. So it was pretty inexpensive to
make and especially for the price, they sounded really well.
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How did you get the pot cast? You went to a foundry?
There was a foundry up the road that sand cast aluminum and
bronze. So, you make a pattern out of wood and they would
make the castings. And actually, we didn’t even turn them
down on a machine. They were polished on a belt polisher. We
didn’t even have to finish them. They had the silver look. They
looked like an old banjo you know. And they sounded decent
and the price was right.
And then I actually made a run of cases - hardshell cases out
of plywood and solid wood sides. 25 bucks a piece I was
getting for those. I probably lost money on each one of those.
What was the brand name on these?
Ode. Ode banjos.
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So that was the beginning of the Ode banjo company?
Yup.
To tell you the truth, I don’t ever remember thinking “Oh, this is
gonna be a business.” I just didn’t think that way. It was just
something I wanted to do, and then as fast I could put those
darn things together, people would come by and buy - all word
of mouth. So I thought “Wow, there must be something to
this.” So the next batch I ran some standard length necks - 5
strings. And then I moved into 4 string banjos and then 6 string
banjos.
Were these resonator banjos?
I can’t remember the exact progression. I know that right after
the long necks I did a standard length 5 string.
So basically, you just taught yourself? You weren’t an
apprentice to somebody?
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Well, at this point it was all self learning as far as the banjo
part goes. The 70 or 80 year old Swedish woodworker taught
me a lot about the woodworking part and my physicists and
machinists in the physics department helped me with the
metal parts. So I got that going and just kind of winged it for
the next 2 or 3 years. There were a number of people around
here (in Boulder), there was a guy named Al Campton who
played banjo since the ‘20s. I learned a lot about instruments
from him. There were some other young players that I learned
a lot from about playing and how to make banjos work for the
players. I was also playing myself.
It went on, we started the Ode banjos. We probably made
about 1500 banjos, all with aluminum pots. I also kept
experimenting. I did a lot of designs on the pots. Different
shapes, weights, and this sort of thing. Always putting things
together and having local musicians playing what I did.
The turning point came in about 1964. This young kid
hitchhiked out from Athens, Ohio and he had a dulcimer he
made. He had hitchhiked out to see about working in our shop.
He had heard about us. I did hire him. We struck up a really
strong friendship and creative relationship. Turns out, he knew
more than me about old instruments - not making, but the
whole vintage world His name is Kix Stewart. He stayed there
for a year and in a year we totally reworked my product line.
We went in to making the wood rim banjos which ended up
being the Baldwin style A, C, D, F, whatever.
So we made the whole wood rim line of banjos. We even
started making my own planetary tuning pegs. I was the first
one of the modern makers who started making those geared
planetary tuning pegs. Before Schaller, Stew Mac, or anybody
else.
My company had every oddball in it. We were kind of like
bohemian beatniks. There was like 10 people working there.
Everybody had their own key and they would come and go as
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they please. Everybody was crazy. In the meantime, my buddy
Kix decided to go back to Athens, Ohio.
The stress was getting to me. Having to always pay the rent,
pay the wages, and dealing with all of these crazy people. I got
burned out and decided to sell the business. So I sold it to
Baldwin Piano and Organ.
How old were you when you sold the company?
I think I was 26.
So you were really young still.
Yeah.
I worked for Baldwin for 6 months helping them get set up, but
I just wanted to kind of be a free spirit and ended up
wandering around for a while, living in different places, but
came back to the mountains in Boulder.
What year was this that you sold the company?
1966
I happened to be at Newport Folk Festival in 1965. The folk
thing had died out.
When Dylan went electric…
We had camped out there, and they had a rehearsal that night
before the whole thing started. There was about 25 of us there.
I was sitting next to Harry Tuft who runs the Denver Folklore
Center. Pete Seeger had just done his act. Then Bob Dylan
came on, backed up by the Paul Butterfield Blues Band and
Harry and I just looked at each other, we didn’t say a word, but
what went through our minds was “Oh shit. Our whole
profession is trashed!” Our jaws just dropped!
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When did you get interested in building banjos again?
In about 5 years. I got interested with a guy working with me
on construction. He was a drummer and said, “I hear you
made banjos, wanna do that again?”.
That was like 1970 when acoustic music was coming back
again. I never thought I’d build another banjo again. But I was
living up in the mountains and I had this shop and I started
building banjos again and called it Ome.
How much square footage was that shop?
About 2500 square feet.
I did kind of the same mistake again because I’m a free
spirited person. One redneck and a bunch of hippies. I had
horses up there just running wild.
Did you ever run into issues building instruments at such a high
elevation?
Banjos aren’t like guitars. They’re plywood. They’re laminated.
The necks might move a bit but Colorado is a great
environment to build in. No - occasionally I’ll get one of those
instruments that were made up there but they’re perfect.
Colorado’s been a good place to build.
We were up there for 2 years. I loved it. My partners wanted to
make it more of a business so we moved the company Ome
down to Boulder. We’re still in Boulder. My partners have all
left and I ended up with the entire company. I never planned it
that way.
I went to a psychic this one time and for some reason she
picked up that I built instruments and she said “Oh, you’ve
done it for several lifetimes”. For some reason I got the music
curse.
Tanya tells me you have a pretty extensive shop.
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We are probably in the top 10 in the world for new banjos.
I like old stuff, and I’ve had a lot of old banjos, but most of
them - they’re falling apart a lot of the time. The animal glue is
coming apart and what not. New instruments are a lot easier
to deal with for sure.
I also believe we are in a golden age for instrument building -
when you look at what the builders such as yourself, Deering,
Collings, Bourgeois, etc. are putting out there.
Yeah. This is definitely a golden age for fretted instruments for
sure. A lot of great builders are out there.
How many people currently work at Ome?
There’s just Tanya, myself, and 2 other people working here.
How many banjos do you make a year now?
We were up to about 175.
How long have your people been with you?
My two guys have been here for about 20 years or so.
Are you the sole person who comes up with the design
elements of new banjos?
Pretty much, yup. I’m pretty much the sole person. There are
some other artists that do some of the engraving and one off
art work, but I do about 90 plus percent of the design work.
How did you learn to do some of that design?
Well, I did a little drawing. But actually, my mother was a
painter, and so it kind of runs in the family. Over a lifetime I’ve
found out that I like to design and build things. I’ve done a fair
amount of design and building in the construction industry. I’ve
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designed my own buildings. I love to design new things. No
formal training.
What we’re doing now, is some of the nicest things we’ve
done. Now, more than ever.
Do you use CNC?
Yes. We sub out our CNC work. CNC is better as it makes it
perfect. We still do a huge amount of hand work.
How would you describe some of the different tone woods that
you offer on a banjo? I know you offer maple, mahogany,
walnut, and cherry. Are there any others?
I love wood. I’ve always loved wood. I’ve worked with wood
since I was a kid. I love it all. I like good solid hardwoods. To
me they all sound good. Actually at Ode I used to make
Brazilian rosewood banjos. The pots were still maple but the
necks and resonator veneers were Brazilian rosewood. When
that dried up, we went to Indian rosewood. We made a fair
amount of rosewood Omes. I really don’t like wood that’s too
bright, and that really heavy wood. We pretty much stopped
doing that. I actually like the sound of the softer woods, the
mahoganys and some of the softer maples, and walnut. To
me, everything that we make now sounds good. You know,
any species of wood can vary quite a bit. When people think,
“maple sounds this way and walnut sounds that way,
mahogany sounds this way”, there’s some truth to that, but it
can vary a large amount. We can make pots that are walnut,
still mostly it’s maple, but we can make walnut pots, cherry
pots, mahogany pots. We make some of everything. To me it
all sounds good. But… it’s hard to do all this stuff you know. It
kind of drives you crazy. So, then again, it’s a matter of
balancing. You gotta stay in business so you gotta keep your
costs down. Every time you do all this different stuff, it runs the
cost up. But I’m kind of addicted to doing different things. I like
to see all the different banjos coming out made with different
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woods and that sort of thing.
You offer a varnish finish on some banjos and a lacquer on
others. Do you spray poly on any of your banjos?
We’re using a catalyzed lacquer. It’s kind of like a lacquer. It’s
not real thick. I don’t like a real thick finish. But again, a banjo
is different than a guitar. When you have a guitar, you don’t
want to lay on poly on a guitar. You do a thin lacquer finish on
an acoustic guitar. A banjo is closer to an electric guitar where
you could put a thick finish on there and it wouldn’t effect the
tone.
So you don’t think there’s a tonal difference between varnish
and lacquer?
I don’t think on a banjo there is a tonal difference between
varnish and lacquer. I think there’s so many bigger things to
deal with like the head being at the right tension and your
tailpiece. There are so many really relatively simple things to
deal with, your setup is huge.
Being an old gun nut, I like oil finishes. And, I’m an
environmentalist, so I like using natural, non toxic finishes. I like
to feel the wood. I’ve always liked that, but it was traditional to
use lacquer, so we used lacquer for years and years. When I
started making Ome in 1970, I think it’s when I started using
the oil finishes on our low end line. I’d see these things come
back 10 or 20 years later and they still looked great. You just
rub a little oil on it.
Most of what we’re doing now is oil. Even on some more
expensive bluegrass banjos. There’s nothing like lacquer to
bring out the beauty of curly maple. It gives it that optical
effect. But, then if you scratch it, you got a major job to finish it
and buff it up. Oil is a lot easier. Right now we’re doing mostly
oil varnish - tung oil.
Not linseed oil?
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There’s some various combinations of the oil we use. But,
pretty organic stuff. Several coats. It still takes a lot of work,
but generally we can do it less expensively than lacquers.
We’re doing a lot of that. But, it’s all good. You know, when
somebody wants a really flashy banjo with the curly maple
jumping out at you, we put lacquer on it.
Oil also tends to be faster than lacquer. It plays faster. Martin
uses a satin finish on all of their guitar necks because it’s
faster. When you polish it up, the finish gets stickier.
Yeah. Especially here in New Orleans where it is very humid.
What is your hardware generally made of? Is it brass?
Generally most of our metal is machinable brass. The tone
rings have a special formula when you get to the bluegrass
bronze tone ring.
How do you keep the aged brass or bronze hardware that you
offer from turning green?
We’ve been doing a lot of this aged brass for about - I think it’s
going on 6 years. I don’t think I’ve had any complaints of it
turning green. It’s pretty amazing stuff. I’ve seen a few of the
older ones and they haven’t turned green. Actually some of our
oxidation has worn off a little bit. You could re-oxidize it, but it
seems to be working really well. Again, I’m an old gun nut and
I love the old guns that were made with brass and wood and
seldom have I seen them turn green. They just get this light
patina on them. It looks really nice. Especially with wood.
That’s why we went with the wood armrest too. I added that
wood armrest. It goes really well. It makes the pot look better
and you don’t get allergic reactions to it.
I’ve even made some polished brass banjos. When it’s new,
you can’t tell it from gold.
I’ve seen a lot of our nickel banjos come back, corroded to the
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point where it has pits all in it. The nickel can get trashed out. I
believe the brass probably holds up better than the nickel.
What’s your take on the tonal difference between dowel sticks
vs. coordinator rods and the adjustability factor?
When we set them up, we try to set those things up so that
you don’t really need to adjust them. I know the pot can warp,
and the two rim rods (coordinator rods) seem to give a more
solid structure because the pot can move over years, and
there’s nothing as solid as the two rim rods. On our other
models, it’s still held on with the two lag bolts which I believe,
because you can really tighten those with two attachment
spots, with either a lug nut or a rim rod. I can set up any banjo
either way. Basically it’s the same banjo. You have the two lag
bolts, and you can either use two metal rods or on our old time
banjos we use a wooden rod instead of a metal rod.
And then put a nut on the other as you don’t need two wooden
rods in there. But it seems to be working really well. If you
need to adjust it, like we have some washers in there, you
could take a washer out if you want to increase the angle and
crank it down more. But again, so far we haven’t had a
problem. Also, if you did need to reshape the neck, you don’t
have to steam the glued dowel stick. You just take the lag bolts
out and reshape the back of the neck. It’s a lot easier. So far, it
seems to be working really well.
We’re doing it a little bit different now. I’m making the dowel
sticks a little longer so it’s a tighter fit on our next generation of
stuff coming through here.
Do you have any new models coming out and how do you
come up with a new model?
I usually come up with an idea, then make a prototype. We
have so much stuff, the guys hate it, and we can’t keep up with
it all.
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The last one that came out, I really like this last one, the
Oracle.
It’s kind of like cars, you start out with a Toyota Rav that’s a
real tiny little thing and 10 years later its the size of an SUV. I’d
look at it and think to myself, it’d look a little better with this or
that. I might spend 2 years designing every inlay pattern. It’s
easy for me to keep evolving it for 2 or 3 years, until I get it
right and I say that’s good enough - I’m not doing anything
more.
Do you still play music?
A little bit. I like music. We live in a little quaint mountain town
that has world class music.
Do you ever perform?
I’m a closet
musician. I
identify with
Bill Collings (of
Collings
Guitars and
Mandolins)
(pictured to
the right). To
me, Bill
Collings, as far
as a builder
goes - he’s
probably my
number one hero. He’s a guy who does incredible things. I kind
of always wanted to get to his level of production but never
could. But anyway, my theory is most builders are frustrated
musicians. They are probably guys who wanted to play. But
building and designing instruments is different than playing
them. It’s a different function of the brain. So I’ve found out
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David Bandrowski
Author
that you know, I love music, and I have a good ear for it and a
good feel for it, but I just am more of a design/builder than I
am a musician. I like to go to bed early and get up early.
Musicians have to stay up til 3 and 4 in the morning. Sleep til
noon. I could never do that.
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Who are some of your favorite musicians?
I like a lot of music of the ‘70s. I also like traditional music from
all over the world. I’m not a banjo fanatic. I love African music.
Irish music. Greek music. Just all of it. Some of the Asian stuff
gets too weird for me, but I like indigenous music.
If you weren’t a banjo maker, what do you think you’d be
doing?
I would have loved to have been an artist. More design, more
painting. I’m very visual.
What do you like to do in your spare time? What are some of
your hobbies?
I’m an outdoor adventurer. Mountain climb, ski, bike, travel
around the world.
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Stephen Bruce 5/4/2016, 5:49:32 AM
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I am friends with Myron Koenig who worked at the Baldwin Co.
in Cincinnati after the sale of ODE. He would make a great
interview if you would like to follow up this article.
Reply to Stephen Bruce
R.D. Eno 5/6/2016, 10:40:42 AM
In the spring of 1963, I bought a 10 15/16" Vega tubaphone pot
from Jody Stecher (who kept the tenor neck). I wanted a long
neck just like Pete's, and Pete played a Vega (this was two
years before Dylan's cataclysmic performance at Newport). I
contacted Roger Sprung, who lived in my neighborhood. He
had a closet full of Ode long-necks, and he sold me an early
production model with an 11" pot. I never actually played it.
Please. Would Pete have played an aluminum pot? Instead, I
took it apart and tried to mount the long neck on the Vega pot
in my high school shop. Result: disappointment. Two years
later, while I was at college, I had The Fret Shop in Chicago
send the Frankenjo to North Carolina, where the neck was
properly mounted but the original dowel stick was lost. Fast
forward 50 years. I have a custom long neck, made by Louis
Freilicher of Belchertown, MA, on the Vega (one of 15 banjos in
my house ... some people have cats ...) and still have the Ode
pot its neck lying around. So I took the Ode parts to Louis, and
he remarried them with a new dowel stick, and, to my
amazement, the Ode has a surprisingly pleasant and flexible
voice, with plenty of volume when open and a chucky, woody
tone when stuffed. There's a ballad theme here -- the
undiscovered lover who has been there all along, right under
your nose.
Reply to R.D. Eno