Horizon Initiative Water Mgmt. Meeting November 4, 2009 City Park

8/14/2019 Horizon Initiative Water Mgmt. Meeting November 4, 2009 City Park

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Horizon Initiative Water Mgmt. Meeting November 4, 2009City Park Casino Building------------------------------------------------------------------------

The meeting began at 11:30 am.

Present were:Billy Marchal (Flood Protection Alliance, Horizon Initiative Executive

Committee member)Diane Baum (permitting and code enforcement)Damian Tatum (mechanical engineering)Grasshopper Mendoza (real estate development)Cherrie Felder (ports and navigation)Steve Picou (LSU AgCenter, sustainable development)Thomas Rush (GNO Inc.)Mark Schexnayder (LSU Ag Center, Sea Grant)

Whitford Remer (Loyola Law)Bradford Case (City of New Orleans Hazard Mitigation/grant writing)Tony Laska (Conservation Services Group)Jeff Dauzat (DEQ Environmental Scientist)Harvey Stern (Sewerage & Water Board Environmental Affairs Division)Oliver Wise (RAND Gulf States)Bill Kappel (Coastal Environments Inc.)Prisca Weems (Futureproof)Eldon C Blancher II (GroundWork)

John W. Burns Jr. (Surface Water Manager)Tim Duggan (Make It Right)

Harold Gorman (Morgan Keegan)Joe Evans (Future Proof)Linda Stone (Global Green)

Grasshopper welcomed everyone and began the introductions and newssegment. She said David Waggoner is in Washington DC at a Dutch Embassyevent and couldnt attend, and that he is frustrated by the lack of progress andmomentum on the Dutch Dialogues approach and noted the attention NewYork is currently devoting to the subject.

Jeff Dauzat let everyone know about new noncompliance investigations they're

working on through DEQ. They have 40% noncompliance in their work area atthis time.

Steve Picou suggested everyone look at southernclimate.org, which is apartnership between OSU and LSU on climate change research.

Damian Tatum said Tropical Storm Ida has formed and is en route to the GulfCoast. So if you found yourself lacking in urgency for our work, take note.


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Whitford Remer noted a progress ive environmental ruling by 5th Circuit on theMurphy Oil case; the court granted plaintiff status to parties suing oilcompanies for greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming andhurricanes. If the case moves forward and finds in the plaintiffs' favor, oil

refineries would in principle be liable for portions of all hurricane and severeweather damage world wide, disrupting the entire oil-based economy andpossibly shutting down Gulf Coast production and refining infrastructure.Therefore, the fact that the 5th Circuit granted plaintiff status at all isastounding.

Bill Kappel said they anticipate completing in a few days the property transferfor the condo project mentioned in previous notes.

Diane Baum announced a compliance conference for lawyers and engineers,that covers stormwater, wastewater, and going green. The conference is in

Alexandria, and endorsed by DEQ and DHH.

Eldon C Blancher II introduced himself, and said he works with LPBF, as wellas Ground Works NOLA, which has a big meeting coming up at Morial Center.Chicago and New Orleans will alternate hosting this conference. He's puttingtogether watershed speakers, all local. Abstracts due December 1. He wants todocument activities underway in New Orleans. A Young Professionalsorganization in Chicago set up a large number of events when they hosted theconference, he wants to match that level of local participation and enthusiasmhere.

Prisca Weems said Futureproof is beefing up on educating people on long-term savings achieved through sustainable landscaping. Want to frame it as apilot project.

Cane Bordeaux introduced himself as a journalist from the Associated Press.He said he's not going to quote anyone, but just wants to learn about our work.

Mark Schexnayder said we can look outside and see the water monitorsdiscussed in previous meetings, which will keep tabs on the condition of theCity Park bayous and St. John. They're going to try to work an ecologicalrestoration provision into a federal funding bill, also for the St. John water

system. He now wants to instruct citizens and policy makers on how thissystem works. On the negative side, Americorps just had its funding cut; theydo coastal restoration work. Grasshopper declares it an action item forcommittee members to address this.

John Burns (surface water management, state and private) recently returned toNew Orleans from Florida. John spoke with Dr. Hendrick regarding the recentLouisiana Urban Strormwater Coalition in Pineville. The Stormwater Coalition


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will be having some meetings and is looking for input from us for their springmeeting in Baton Rouge, fall in St. Tammany.

John said Dr. Hendrick is retiring but will still be involved in his previous work.Diane lamented his retirement. Mark said LSU AgCenter is cutting people and

offered him a voluntary retirement package, which he accepted.

Also John said a rain garden was just installed at the Broadmoor farmer'smarket.

Harvey Stern introduced himself and said new contractors need runoffinstruction, and the city needs a plan for how to get training in place beforepermitting. He's working to enforce this. Also, Sierra Club commented onMaster Plan, requiring ordinance enforcement. Monday at 6:30 there will be aninformational meeting on the Hazard mitigation draft plan.

Brad Case said their first community meeting is November 19 on his hazardmitigation work. He's looking forward to it, and it's needed to update the plan.

Linda Stone said she's doing a water reclamation project but is getting lots ofpush back from the state and needs help. Louisiana regulators are rejectingtheir rain water capture system for reasons that were not clear. Diane saidshe's just gotten back from a conference and knows someone from DHH, butthe person she mentioned is the very person who has apparently vowed, overher dead body, to block Linda's project, so the suggestion fell rather flat. Othernames were thrown out for Linda to reference. Grasshopper suggested thatthis issue could be a good action item for the policy and stormwater working

groups. The Dept. of Health refuses to sign off on the use of gray watersystems and other legal barriers exist.

Cherrie Felder said the governor has issued an executive order, commandingher group to come up with a 5-year action plan that will promote economicdevelopment and port growth. She's on the governor's board.

Billy Marchal said East Bank levee board will pay $350,000 to study hislongstanding polder plan. They also approved an east bank perimeter study tosee if any assets can be enhanced beyond 100 year protection for low cost.Can you get 400 year protection by adding small features? This includes the

levee gap south of the airport along the Jefferson/St. Charles parish line, sothey'll study blocking that weakness and closing those openings. Timing TBDbut funding approved. See previous notes for additional details on theseissues.

Oliver Wise asked Billy if those three studies are in lieu of integrated watermanagement plan. Answer is no, they are in addition. No idea when bids willhit the streets. LRA doesn't know either. Oliver said he has no big updates.


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Joe Evans from Futureproof said he's happy that Global Green brought themonto the Quickstart schools and thatthey produced a very water-centric systemfor the Wilson school, and they've brought in other groups to do a rain gardenplanting day, including a wetlands learning center, all funded by non-profits

despite FEMA's best efforts to derail these plans (efforts not described). They'llstart planning next week. Grasshopper asked Joe to post this to the blog.There's a conference coming up, Brownfields 20009, on the 15 of November.

Tom Rush said National Center for Atmospheric Research expects 10 inchesmore rainfall every year by 2050, due to climate change.

Tony Laska said we're used to going, for example, to St. Bernard and seeingthe launches flooded. He just got back from Maine where he saw oceanflooding for the first time. He wondered if this was foreshadowing of largerclimate changes.

Grasshopper introduced Tim Duggan from Make It Right and praised hisgroup's best-practices work in the 9th Ward. Tim introduced himself as alandscape architect from Kansas City; his firm was picked up by MIR, he took aleave of absence and moved here. Has a Netherlands-understanding of watercontrol. Before New Orleans, Tim worked in Greensburg, KS which wasdestroyed by a tornado. He then began his presentation.

Make it Right is centered adjacent to the Claiborne Bridge, and is beginning toreach large density. Brad Pitt is associated with them, and pushes theirenvelope with his financial support and bully pulpit. Their neighborhood is right

in the bulls-eye of the Industrial Canal. They say they can build safely andsustainably even in a flood plain, and take pride in embracing this difficult task.

Tim showed a map demonstrating how many houses in Lower 9 were knockedoff their foundations. These residents are unnerved by water, but his group istrying to change the paradigm of dealing with water to reverse thisapprehension. The project started with the "Pink Project" in which the washed-away houses were replaced with internally-lit, glowing pink tents; publicity fromthis art project got Bill Clinton's foundation involved.

They have 28 "LEED Platinum" houses up, the highest concentration in US,

and wil l finish 150 by December of next year. They built a permeable concreteplayground, which produces zero runoff for a 10-year storm. The playground isdone.

That led to broader sustainable material discussions with City Hall, andpermeable concrete is making inroads. Robert Mendoza said he washandcuffed by the lack of data and technical expertise, so Tim offered to buildpilot projects MIR would take responsibility for, so Mendoza could get his data.


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They want to unite sustainability, affordability, and design. They also want tocreate jobs. They brought in concrete contractors and experts who startedcertifying pervious concrete work among local contractors, to spread thatknowledge.

Diane said the Concrete Association has a formal standard for pervious now.

Tim said storm water is either detained or retained, nationwide. Here soils arein question, and pervious material construction needs a large subbase. In NewOrleans, amended soils and rain gardens handle retention, they are alsobuilding storage canals. They can attain zero runoff, but they have a slidingscale of runoff versus cost for more realistic performance/cost points.

Micro-scale house needs: How do you stop runoff from leaving a site? Theydon't control the land, lots come on hand randomly. They take an adaptivemanagement approach. They apply a process to a parcel, and that, in principle,

leads to a zero runoff neighborhood. Shows a baseline house: $8500 for theentire landscaping job for a single residence. They found a number of ways toreduce cost in the process. They're making their own soil mixes, from on-sitematerials.

Showed their residential design strategies.Native Plants: so you don't need a PhD to run your garden.Rain Gardens: need to be aesthetic or there are complaints/can just look likeweeds.Xeriscape Plantings:Edible Gardens: makes heavy growth accepted and useful

Green Roofs: found some modular ones that can be compared by residents,which was helpful for buy-in.Street Trees: they reduce runoff, offer shade, are aesthetic, etc. MIR protectstheir trees and have done research on how pervious materials affect them.

The pervious concrete they're using is reinforced by an alternate material torebar, which cannot oxidize in the aerated material, and they claim to havenearly doubled the 5000 psi roadway pressure requirement needed for largetrucks. Tim said costs are comparable to concrete.

As the neighborhood is filling in, the strangeness of the houses is lessened.

Infrastructure is starting to lag (roadways and understructure). Mendoza saidnew streets and sewerage were approved, but MIR didn't want them. I guessthey were afraid the streets, built with traditional techniques, would damage thehouses or nullify their effectiveness. They brought in a team to find ways to uselocal labor to do a sustainable street system. They found some partners andshowed them the benefits of sustainable streets. The metric showed that Xsustainable streets produce Y less water that the city needs to pump.


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It's tricky to build a rain garden near a street, since they can be mistaken forweeds. They're finding neighborhood farming is effective, as are attractive raingarden plants. "Success is not turning a bean counter into a tree hugger," it'sshowing a bean counter that hugging trees is profitable. Every project Tim has

seen over emphasized up-front costs, and failed to extend that metric into thefuture. His group is trying to demonstrate what those future costs are, forsmarter building today.

He then displayed some other projects he's worked on around the country:Snuck some rain gardens into downtown Kansas City, and they're working asintended. Said he's doing landscape interventions city wide. Built a rain gardenoutside of Topeka. Did a wetland project, was the beta tester for a number ofLEED Platinum components. Also projects in Portland and so on. Beautify thepublic space while reducing water runoff. Traffic calming: curb bump outs withrain gardens can slow and reduced aggressive traffic.

They're partnered with MLK school in the 9th

Ward to do education outreach.

Subsurface storage, retrofit phasing plan: They had to retrofit a street. Addsmall bump outs in streets. Add greens to parking spots. Take on vacant lots,add some green roofs, some pervious asphalt, add a tree canopy. They have a10-year storm retention capability on their pilot street project. City wants them tolook at some more key technologies (gave a list). Need to partner with amunicipality or the city won't appreciate the production. A path towardimplementation in New Orleans was displayed and described briefly.

They thought they could remediate 300,000 gallons of rain water every stormevent, using their pilot project. Rain gardens at every property line, intersectionsare raised and level with sidewalks and act as storage space (under theintersection, I presume). MIR made vacant lots into storm retention, and thatmade it easier for owners to upkeep their vacant lots.

They want to unify their ideas with local materials so there isn't a hodge podge.

Walter Hood from Oakland sent in a diagram of a non-car street. (The meaningof this chart was not clear)

MIR brought in Majora Carter, who is focusing on creating jobs from all of thesetopics.

They're going to build the next phase in February. Some of it is already there, ofcourse.

Diane asked about the void spaces in the permeable surfaces. What's inthem? Tim said there's washed, (that's expensive) crushed aggregate inside


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the voids. You put it in the ground, wrap it, let water run through it, and porespaces develop. Maintainence includes a pressure wash every 2 years. In thenorth, there are problems with freeze/thaw, but that's not problematic here. Theydo the aggregate washing at the production facility, not on-site.

Whitford asked if there was a cost to move a gallon of storm water out of thecity. Tim said they came up with $0.04-0.05 per gallon to pump it over the levee.But he thinks that's high. $0.005-$0.015 is probably more realistic. But thesavings are still real, and are impressing City Hall. Every gallon retained in theneighborhood does represent a savings for the city.

Linda asked about the list of things he's working on, specifically cisterns. Thereare self-sealed cisterns in their projects and every one is unapproved; theyhook them up as soon as City Hall leaves. He recognized that Linda has hadhorrible problems with this. John Todd was identified as the person to talk to(this information is unclear) for anyone who having these problems. Prisca

said the Louisiana Plumbing Code is the problem, they need to take on theInternational Plumbing Code, and there's legislation pushing this. Tim said, if itwas him, he'd bring in a set of drawings stamped by a national and aLouisiana engineer.

Bill Kappel asked if, on MIR's scale, has there been any study of subsidencerates. Tim said generally, subsidence comes from pulling water out of the soil.So their work should reduce subsidence. They are studying the subsidence intheir area, and their effect on it. They are getting better infiltration than theywould have expected, though. Apparently the conventional wisdom that claycan't infiltrate is misguided. He brought in a number of the most

knowledgeable people and they've had good luck.

Tim spoke of the etymology of "discussion" and "charette," noting that adiscussion inherently implied to "break apart", whereas a "charette" had itsroots in the idea of collaborating while r iding on a cart.

Discuss: c. 1340, from O.Fr. discussion, from L.L. discussionem "examination,discussion," in classical L., "a shaking," from discussus, pp. of discutere "strikeasunder, break up," from dis- "apart" + quatere "to shake." Originally"examination, investigation, judicial trial;" meaning of "talk over, debate" firstrecorded 1448. Sense evolution in L. appears to have been from "smash apart"

to "scatter, disperse," then in post-classical times (via the mental processinvolved) to "investigate, examine," then to "debate."

charette: c.1400, from O.Fr. charrette "wagon, cart" (12c.), dim. of charre (seecar).Thought to originate from the cole des Beaux-Arts in Paris in the 19thcentury, the word charrette is from the French for "cart" or "chariot." It was notunknown for student architects to continue working furiously, at the last minute,on the illustrations for their design presentations, even while riding in the school


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cart (en charrette) through the streets of Paris en route to submit the projects totheir professors. Hence, the term metamorphosed into the current design-related usage in conjunction with working right up until a deadline.

Grasshopper said we might have to move the break-out groups to next month

because we went past our planned time. She noted that leadership is reallyimportant and asked that everyone keep sending her information and keepdeveloping community action. Keep pushing for city participation. There havebeen a number of ideas proposed, please send them to her.

Diane mentioned her conversation with Gordon Austin at the last meeting. Sheasked him if SWB performed monitoring of runoff water for pollution. Heassured her they did so, and suggested where she could look for the data (seenotes). She has since discovered that the most current monitoring dates backto 2002 (attributed Marcia St. Martin). There have been no monitoring stationsset up since then. DEQ says there's been no monitoring analysis sent in. So

his claims were in error, at best. She needs to go run down where themonitoring stations are, and see why they're down and when they might getback up.

Grasshopper said they might combine Infrastructure and Storm WaterManagement groups, also may gel together Policy and R&D.

Tim said eco-system management is just as important as manmadeinfrastructure, so they should be joined too

Steve said someone should take leadership on timliness of getting our

discussion material out there for the upcoming mayoral elections. Getcandidates to buy in and get public to make this an election issue. Mark saidwe should invite them to our meetings. Grasshopper wants us to do that. Policygroup should begin laying groundwork. Prisca said John Georges is going torun on a green platform, so we could leverage that. Kappel said in 1994 theyformed a PAC that created an educational platform for school board races.They had a platform the candidates could endorse or not. Although this may notbe the best way to proceed for us, he said it was effective then.

Billy said this could be woven into HI's general push to make the candidatesembrace a PPP. There's a lot of energy for that. He spoke in general about HI's

future and plans, and how those could mesh with this group's agenda.Grasshopper said the Policy Group should address preparing a private forumto educate the candidates on these topics.

Tim said the most renewable resource in LA is votes for new politicians, andwe should beware of getting greenwashed and distracted with smoke andmirrors from candidates holding cheat sheets.


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Kappel said Tim's note on metrics and Billy's on economic development needto be coordinated, to build a hard-numbers campaign arguing that this is a realissue with dollar value.

Cherrie said educating candidates is huge; she does this all the time, for portsand waterways. She has to explain lots of things to them, and that's energy wellspent. Tim said he's really pleased by the Master Plan's sustainability, butpoliticians may not understand what they're walking into. Mark said Murraywants to abandon the Master Plan if elected.

Joe said it's an attractive idea to sponsor a debate where we frame the scopeand the discussion. Get a good moderator. Tim said they've had good luck withdoing things like that. Mark concurred. Grasshopper said Policy should do thattoo. Mark said HI could also take a role in that.

Meeting adjourned.

Horizon Initiative Water Mgmt. Meeting November 4, 2009 City Park

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Transcript of Horizon Initiative Water Mgmt. Meeting November 4, 2009 City Park