Fb Spirit of Inquiry

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not as an intellectual concept by merely understanding of the words with ourown sets of preconceived meanings?

Dwarka Kalantry KKji: " Arjuna started to listen to krishna's expose with a

not-knowing, fresh and attentive mind keen to learn and understand...Is itpossible for us to start at that very level of Arjuna?"

We cannot start at Arjun's level. Arjun is jitendriya, best archer in the world,

born with devi sampada, etc. The basic assumption that Arjun was not

knowing and fresh mind is incorrect. Arjun's problem was that he wasdeluded (moh), he acknowledges in 18:73 that his delusion is destroyed dueto HIS GRACE. Arjun is at graduate level and I am at KG!

Rajan Sood @KKji, how can we listen without the interferences of pastkarmas. The point is BG will appeal to all according to the level one is at.

Krishna if listened to straight appeals to almost every level, the beginner aswell as the most advanced one.

Kusum Padma we can if we stop the interference of our thoughts...through

meditation it is possible to stop prejudices and past karmas as we will beburning them through meditation techniques ...and i am not telling you from

any books...this is my own experiences my dear friends...

Kusum Padma anybody can become an Arjuna...it is a state which can be

achieved....it is not by reading only but by applying the teachings according

to our self....

Kora Koos Sir, the beginner has an innocent mind, ready to learn, ready to

attend, not reacting immediately when something is proposed, but pauses toreflect and digest and moves slowly. In this regard the beginner has an

advantage over the advanced, whose cup is already filled with so much stuff.The main thing suggested here is the art of listening, not just to the Gita, but

to life in all its movements and moods as all life is a yoga. Kora was not

referring to the qualifications of Arjuna but to his mental state, which

because he was confused and despondent, created the proper conditions forlearning and understanding.

Rajan Sood Padmaji, wondorful, if you can stop your thoughts. First of all,please see if they are YOUR thoughts in the first place.

Kora Koos Again, what a brilliant insight Rajanji! Are our thoughts reallyours? Can thoughts be personal or original?


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Rajan Sood @KKJi, when we all began, we were already there, at home.

The problem is now we are deep in the jungle trying to find the way tohome.

Kora Koos Right sir! Such clarity of seeing is certainly not the result ofintense thinking or quoting from others' thoughts. It is direct, immediate,spontaneous and enlightening!!! Excellent, sir.

Amarnath Mukherjee When the mind is not prepared and one studies theShastra, he will invariably miss the point. The Shastra statements will get

distorted to yield an understanding which will cater to the existingurges(vasanas).These urges will not allow you to understand things as theyshould be understood.(Shastra VASANAS)

Dwarka Kalantry KKji: "The main thing suggested here is the art oflistening" The story is said about four shishyas sitting in front of

Dakhsinamurty who did not speak a word and they learnt it all. In anotherstory, a saint went to meet another, they sat for three days without anyone

uttering a word and departed. The followers did not understand what wasspoken or heard. The art of listening starts with art of not speaking.

Kora Koos AmarnathJi! Thanks for sharing about the shastra vasanas, whichfinally act as an impediment to real learning and understanding.

Rajan Sood Koraji, have you read BG in its raw form. Direct translation orin Sanskrit. It is surely shows the shortest path to home.

Kora Koos Dwarkaji! A brilliant insight from you. The art of listening startswith the art of not speaking, so beautiful, poetic but so true. Thanks for the

enlightening insight sir. Pranaams.

Kora Koos Rajanji! I read the Shrimad Bhagavad Gita, The Scripture of

Mankind, translation by Swami Tapasyananda, from Shri Ramakrishna

math. It contains sanskrit text and word to word translation into English.

This provides ample space for deeper understanding and broaderappreciation. I believe there are other valuable translations.

Rajan Sood If it is exact translation, then it is fine. You see Krishna spoke toArjun, knowing very well that BG is going to be a Shastra. Krishna is the

best person to deliver the message. We should be all ears to Him and Himonly. Nobody in between.


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Om Kiran The Gita is a stage in the Evolutionary Process....the Light has toglow from within......the Gita is but a reflection of this

Light.....interpretations vary, only becoz the reflection is in direct proportion

to the brilliance of the light within.....

Kora Koos Kiranji! What a beautiful way of putting it all! Brilliant! Thanks!

Narinder BhandariOm Kiran Jee ......... narinder somehow could not understand how The

Geetha could be in ' a stage 'in the evolutionary process . The words ofKrishna stand like rock. Inviolate. It is the interpretations that keep evolving

................. ...The Ved-Vani is inviolate. But words are words

................maybe narinder has not been able to understand your words clearly

.....he is only too fallible........ With deep personal regards for you.

Mrityunjayanand Jee

...Really a wonderful discussion is going on. I have a mood to give a littleturn to this excellent thread started by Kora. We are missing a very

important factor in putting our views and what may be that?

Let us go to Chapter eighteen of Bhagavad Gita. Sri Krishn asks:

"Have you, O Parth, listened intently to my words and, O Dhananjay, is yourdelusion born out of ignorance dispelled?"

And then says Arjun:

nao moha smtirlabdh tvatprasdnmaycyuta

sthitosmi gatasadeha kariye vacana tava

"Since my ignorance has been dispelled by your grace, O Achyut, and I have

recovered discernment, I am free from doubt and shall follow your precept."

Mark here the used word..."smritirlabdh".....recovered

discernment....."recovered".....means it was but lost some how.....!!!

"Achyuth ! Because of Your grace, my passion is destroyed, I have......

regained....... my memory, I am consistent, being bereft of doubts and am

ever ready to obey Your orders." Whereas, Arjun was perplexed at the time


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of reviewing both the armies, to find his kith and kin therein.

So make the discussion more interesting keeping these into considerations in

view which are..."recovered or regained discernment".....and now after

listening Geeta..again.."consistent"...!

Kora Koos Nashto (destroyed) mohah (delusion) smriti (memory orawareness or discernment) labdha (obtained, gained) tvat-prasadat (by your

grace), sthitah (consistent, firm), asmi (I am), gata-sandehah (doubtsdispelled), karishye (I will do), vachanam tava (what is said by you).

Kora Koos @ Jee. The twist may be interesting but the text says something

different; it talks about obtaining/gaining insight (smriti) after havinglistened (shruti) with a non-wavering attention (aikagrena chetasa).

Narinder Bhandari

No MATTER ........... only a thought, Om Kiran dear ............. finally, the ha-

ha-ha- We feel ...the Truth inside of us ...... the truth that IS ! Truth IS.

Truth is also the relationship......... the relationship of the self with the Self.. the Timeless bonding of the Purusha with Prakriti

Expressing in words , perhaps, becomes the the limitation........... OR ..........

perhaps, the Limitation lies in....... the Interpretation of words

Personally, though, all the evolution of Interpretations, newer and newerblossoms, indicate to narinder , only the Immutable sacredness of the Truth

of the Word. Inviolate. This is, perhaps, narinder-nesss limitation in theHerenow.

Did narinder hear the Zen master say, The moment we speak a word about

the First Principle, it becomes the second. The first can-not be spokenabout. ...............

SO .. what do words matter ! LOL

Thank you, and Blessings what a joy to feel the variedfragrance of Being. AUM


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Mrityunjayanand Jee

@ Kora Koos,

"...Many of us have already read the Gita, some know the chapters and

verses by heart, some can jump from one verse in one chapter to another tomake a point or to defend a reasoning..."

It is really encouraging but the best way... is that when one may lead a

seekers life and live Geeta in true sense. To live in verses of Bhagavad Geetaand then to link them while expressing is better than simply discussing

Geeta in academic interest and on intellectual level only. Because the firstcomes through spiritual experiences while second is based on theoretical

know hows only.

"...Did narinder hear the Zen master say, The moment we speak a wordabout the First Principle, it becomes the second. The first can-not be spoken

about. ..SO what do words matter !...."

Yeah.That's true. After a certain... stage, even physical communication withspiritual mentor is not needed much. All the communications come with insitting thousand and thousands kilometers distance away.

Guru catches the impulses whether righteous or unrighteous of every

fraction of moments arising in the mind and heart through each breath ofdisciple and directs as per necessities with divine intuitions clearly visible on

thought screen....spotless....really spotless. Words get lost at that stage...as ifit never existed.

What an amazing experience...? Which can not be shared or shown to others

by any means. But...but ...this opportunity can be availed by any one inhuman garment. That is certain if any one has a real wish..!...............Humble

wishes.

Narinder Bhandari Very True ...each word True! Is it not that is why .......The Upanishad's say " Happy the Wise man, for whom 'wrong' and 'right'

have ceased to exist" !" AUM

Kora Koos

The prime interest of kora in opening this thread was to start an inquiryabout our traditional way of understanding, which is to fill up our minds


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with so much stuff and to view and understand reality through that lens.

When the mind is filled with stuff, it hardly has space for real listening, forfresh investigation because of the thickness of its references and cherished

acquired views. Such a mind feels more as a knower than as a seeker, as an

inquirer. Real inquiry requires a mind that is full of space for learning anew,for unlearning, for questioning what has been taken for granted, what has

been assumed by others and incorporated in oneself as truth. Real inquiryalso requires the mind to be able to say "I don't know, let me investigate in

real life situations in relationship with real life individuals." This finallybrings us to an important quality which is open-mindedness (OM), which

leads to direct encounter with life and all life issues, whether mundane orspiritual, which then results in true understanding and love and in right

action. The intention was certainly not to challenge any one's stance orapproach, though to some extent in presenting different approaches, one

mind may have an unintended impact on others. An attempt through thisthread was to try to trigger the quality of mind in us that could push us

deeper than the mere intellectual and theoretical orientation into a state of

mind that could connect to the real Adhiyagnya in us, and through that

connection, receive insights that might facilitate the understanding of thewisdom inherent in the Gita and incorporate that in our day to day life.When the spiritual flame is ablaze in us, false concepts and theories are

reduced to ashes and the enlightening One becomes our guide, guru andantaryami. Kora's endeavour was geared at that, may be it was a clumsy or

maladroit way of proceeding. But this is truly kora as he is! Thankseveryone for participating and keeping the thread so lively and enlightening.

Pranaam.

Narinder Bhandari Ah, KK .When the spiritual flame is ablaze inus, false concepts and theories are reduced to ashes and the enlightening One

becomes our guide, guru and antaryami... and THEN..... the self knows...knows that there is NOTHING to know ....... NOTHING-Ness is the

DOER , Nothingness the knower.Each word expressed here sings the Joyof your sincerity and love...... GRACE. We are blessed by your sharing.

Narinder Bhandari Becoming The Buddha ... narinder's present experience

(and it is the experience only that is meaningful ) is ..........The present

experience is that it takes TIME, even though one has been blessed with therealisation that TIME is a Myth....... it does NOT exist !

...................................................................................AUM


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Kora Koos @Narinder. Sir, enjoy becoming the Buddha! Though being the

Enlightening One is no less meaningful inperience. Hahaha!

Kora Koos Dwarkaji!Chap3.V43: O mighty armed! Thus realising That

which is superior even to the intellect (buddheh param), and submittingsuperficial self-identity unto the power of That Self-existent core of being,

eliminate the hard-to-overcome foe in the form of desire to always havemore (kamarupam). This requires going beyond the senses, the mind, the

intellect, the trio which sustains the superficial psychological identity inorder to be open to That which is self-effulgent, self-existent and self-

sufficient. Pranaams!

Narinder Bhandari did HE say ....... did the Budhha say??? ..."The Self is theNot-self ... that verily is the truth ! ".........AUM

Kora Koos Vasudevam sarvam iti............

Mrityunjayanand Jee @Kora Koos

"...The intention was certainly not to challenge any one's stance or approach,though to some extent in presenting different approaches, one mind may

have an unintended impact on others. An attempt through this thread was totry ...to trigger the quality of mind in us that could push us deeper than the

mere intellectual and theoretical orientation into a state of mind that couldconnect to the real Adhiyagnya in us, and through that connection, receive

insights that might facilitate the understanding of the wisdom inherent in theGita and incorporate that in our day to day life..."

We are all here to enter into such a state of mind that could connect to the

real Adhiyagnya in us. How to receive insights that might facilitate theunderstanding of the wisdom inherent in the Gita and incorporate that in our

day to day life...is already mentioned in this seed scripture itself. This is theexellency of Bhagavad Geeta.

"...When the spiritual flame is ablaze in us, false concepts and theories are

reduced to ashes and the enlightening One becomes our guide, guru and

antaryami..."

That's the final conclusion. Let us make our best efforts for that.


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"...Kora's endeavour was geared at that, may be it was a clumsy or maladroit

way of proceeding. But this is truly kora as he is!..."

Nothing was wrong any where. Very smooth and soothing through out.

Neither it was any challenge nor has been seen as challenge. Humblewishes!

Kora Koos Thanks Jee! All were involved in real abhyasa, the inquiry to

learn and understand. This forum is really lovely and enriching. Kora hasenjoyed those direct, immediate insights that suddenly flashed into the

sharing. Pranaams.

Mrityunjayanand Jee @Kora Koos,

"....This requires going beyond the senses, the mind, the intellect, the triowhich sustains the superficial psychological identity in to order to be open to

That which is self-effulgent, self-existent and self-sufficient....."

Nice coverage of a very interesting footage.

Sri Krishn says in Bhagavad Gita:

"Above senses there is the mind and above mind there is the intellect, and

the one which lies above all of them is the Soul within, supremely powerfuland yet subtle."

So man is not so helpless after all. He has an armoury of plentiful arms with

which he can wage war with strength and confidence.

He can use his mind against the senses, his intellect against the mind, andabove all these there is his Soul, all powerful and yet unmanifest.

That Soul is the real "us," and so we are strong enough to subdue not only

our senses, but also our mind and intellect.

Knowing the Soul-subtle and in every respect mighty and meritorious, we

must restrain the mind with our intellect and kill this desire, our mostformidable enemy.

Possessed of knowledge of the unmanifest and yet mighty Soul that is


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beyond intellect, and after a due appraisal of his innate strength and

restraining the mind with his intellect,one must slay desire,the worstenemy.One has to kill this enemy after a proper scrutiny of inherent

capacity.

Desire is a terrible foe, for it deludes the Soul through the senses. So

knowing own strength and with confidence in the might of own Soul, oneshould kill this desire-his enemy.

Of course, this enemy is internal and the war to be waged against it is also

internal- of the sphere of the mind and heart.

This hints also to answer few of the points already raised in thread underdiscussions for great learnings. Humble wishes.

Narinder Bhandari

Kora Koos Prabhuji! may we never forget What we are, may we never

forget That, may we never forget THIS! INVOCATION. KAIVALYA

UPANISHAD

Om.

...May all the limbs of my body grow strong.May my speech be nourished and strengthened.

May my nose, my eyes, my ears and my other sense organsbe nourished and strengthened.

All Upanishads are the likeness of the brahman,the ultimate reality.

May I never forget the brahman,

may the brahman never forget me,may I never be forgotten.

Absorbed in the brahman, may I realize the dharma,

the natural and eternal law of the universedescribed in the Upanishads.

Om, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.

PS please notice the emphasis on Brahman NOT forgetting the self .


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Kora Koos @Narinderji! Sir, This is That, Which is What We Are! All

pointing to the Undivided Life Underlying the Universe as captured by theExperiencing Awareness and as reflected by the seat of experience

processing in a unit of consciousness.

Chit shakti vilas!!!

Dwarka Kalantry Jee: "Knowing the Soul-subtle and in every respect mightyand meritorious,we must restrain the mind with our intellect and kill this

desire, our most formidable enemy." Also "The soul is above all" Bhagwanis asking us to slay the desire. The soul does not do anything it is witness

observer then who kills this enemy?

Kora KoosExcellent question for enquiry sir! So how do we approach this question?

Can it be by the surrendering of the superficial, ever-desiring identity,willingly and effortlessly - surrendering unto That which is self-existent,

self-sustaining and self-sufficient? So that there is only pure surrendering

without a centre or surrenderer desiring to derive personal benefit oradvantage or pleasure from that act. In such a selfless surrendering or let-go,

the desire to be and have more for self (Kama) just dies naturally, leavingfull space to Pure wordless witnessing of the whole field of experience

(Kshetragnya)...

Krishnah Jogiah When he cup is full, we can't pour into again. But is thereany particular method to empty the cup? To 'unlearn' is more difficult than to

learn.

Kora KoosKrishnah, true sir, to unlearn is difficult if we take that to mean a method, a

technique. Starting from unlearning is a natural state for everyone;unlearning takes place when we see clearly that knowledge is always part of

ignorance and t...hat both knowledge and ignorance make up the sense of'me' ego, which for its own security and continuity keeps accumulating stuff

from all quarters based on the pleasure and power principles. To unlearnmeans to turn attention away from the self-centred and accumulative

impulse and to let it rest effortlessly on what is actually taking place both

within and without. This disconnection with self-centredness, which isunlearning, emptying, is also yoga when the clouds of learned and

accumulated stuff cover the self-effulgent sun of direct knowing without aknower, direct seeing without a seer...


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Rajan Sood Dear Krishnahji, the whole purpose of spiritual seeking is '

emptying the cup' only. Krishna through BG tells the process of unlearning.

Kora Koos Can we keep this flame of understanding that "the whole purpose

of spiritual seeking is emptying the cup" ablaze in our mind and see whathappens within us as we do that?

Rajan Sood There is no learning required only unlearning. There is no doing

only non-doing required. Non-doing means 'Inaction in action and action ininaction "(BG verse 18 ch.4 ). Nothing else is required.

Kora Koos Rajanji! Impressive! Learning means accumulation and

conditionings because all knowledge carries the shadow of ignorance andthey strengthen the self. Unlearning means putting a stop to that absurd

movement. Then learning takes a new dimension, direct, immediate seeingof life and events, which triggers insights and real wisdom, unburdened by

traditional beliefs and conditionings.

Rajan Sood Perfect Koraji. Learning strengthens that which is Unreal Self,

which is mind and memory. Unlearning puts the mind to unuse and in theabsence of active mind, the Real self comes into picture on its own. Please

see verse 16 chap. 2 for this.

Kora Koos So what is unreal talking machine in the mind has no realsubstance while what is real silent enlightening awareness never ceases to

be. About these two, finally the awakened seers realise the truth...

Rajan Sood That is what it is. The mind, intellect and ego are unreal and alsonot in our control. So see who is writing and who is reading. Who is

hankering after enlightenment?

Kora Koos Sir, it is Life and consciousness in one form talking and sharingwith Life and consciousness in another form. Just see the beauty of it. The

test of unreality is whatever appears and disappears in consciousness cannotbe true; whatever remains permanent in consciousness is real. Just try this

test out and enjoy the discovery unless you have already done that sir!

Hankering after enlightenment is an inbuilt impulse in many or mostindividuals because the shadow feels that it is originated and sustained by a

hidden Light. The inner ghost in the house wants mukti because deep downit feels its own fragmentation and the resulting sense of being unholy-


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debarred of wholeness. This dissatisfaction with self haunts mind and

intellect and drives them in the quest for fulfilment, holiness, enlightenment--the Wholeness of LIFE, beyond all fragmentation.

Rajan Sood This is very well put and you have answered why mind hankersafter enlightenment. But my point was who is hankering after this. It was

only to say "You are not THAT ".

Kora Koos In just 4 words, you shared a most beautiful realisation! Thanksdear, love u.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Let us further continue this thread. Just to move ahead,

let us find the final conclusion in few words first. What has to be discussedhere? And to what conclusion we have already reached?

Rajan Sood You continue sir and please tell us your conclusion.

Mrityunjayanand Jee I was not part of discussion. Hence it should be gotconcluded through the initiators of the posts. The original thoughts are there.

Rajan Sood We concluded that mind is unreal and so stands abandoned.

Kora Koos This has been an exploration into learning and unlearning, which

led to actual insight into what is real and unreal. When the unreal is seen asunreal, then there is space for the real to shower its enlightening light!

Mrityunjayanand Jee @Rajan Sood,

".....We concluded that mind is unreal and so stands abandoned...."

Fine Rajan ji. But what is in practice of normal being? Let us be realistic

with the existing conditions within us. At which stage, you feel that mind isunreal and it stands abandoned? What was the puopose of Arjun asking this

question in Chapter six, verse thirty four of Bhagavad Gita:

cancalam hi manah krsna pramthi balavad dirham

tasyham nigraham manye vyoriva suduskaram

"For I find restraining the mind as difficult as restraining the wind, becauseit is (equally) restless, turbulent, and mighty."


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The mind is so fickle and restless (by nature it is something that chums and

agitates), obstinate, and powerful.

So Arjun is apprehensive that trying to restrain it is going to prove as futile

as tying up the wind. Checking the mind is, therefore, as well nighimpossible as checking a storm.

And in reply, why Sri Krishn has not consoled him just by answering that:

"Hey...don't bother....mind is unreal and stands abandoned?"

Rajan Sood M.Jee why do you forget that Krishna concluded the BGsimilarly by telling Arjun to surrender his mind totally unto him in the very

last verse of BG i.e. 66 of chapter 18. This is not my or Koraji's conclusion.This is Krishna's conclusion in BG.


"......This has been an exploration into learning and unlearning, which led to

actual insight into what is real and unreal. When the unreal is seen as unreal,then there is space for the real to shower its enlightening light!........."

And that is the real and total task Kora Prabhu ji. To see real as real andunreal as unreal. Is this so easy to get understood in black and white

sharings? What are the practical way outs to understand this seriousmystery? Where we all are trapped?

Truth is never extinct, at any time-past, present or future and the unreal has

never any being. God is the only reality, eternal and immutable.

We know this but still running behind any absurd which is unreal.Why....and then how to reach to that level where real looks as real and

unreal as unreal?

Kora Koos Jee. This is the difficulty of the onlooker. Being away from thisharmonious and living discovery that flowed spontaneously through diving

into the ocean of inquiry, the onlooker wants to get a taste of the beauty of

the depth while remaining on the shore.


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Kora Koos Jee! So you feel it was just a black and white sharing, an

intellectual gymnastic undertaken for mutual gratification by two deludedegos!


"....Why do you forget that Krishna concluded the BG similarly by tellingArjun to surrender his mind totally unto him in the very last verse of BG i.e.

66 of chapter 18. This is not my or Koraji's conclusion. This is Krishna's...conclusion in BG...."

I remember each words of Bhagavad Gita and every thing am trying my

level best to keep in my memory. But I always try to share on ground levelwhere normally we are at present. Not coming to my memory where Sri

Krishn had concluded about this mind only being unreal. Can any one of youplease let me remembered?

Mrityunjayanand Jee@Kora Koos,

"....This is the difficulty of the onlooker. Being away from this harmonious

and living discovery that flowed spontaneously through diving into theocean of inquiry, the onlooker wants to get a taste of the beauty of the depth

while remaining on the shore...."

Yeah.I agree. That is my point of worry too. That way, I am thinking also.Thanks for getting my apprehension confirmed.

Rajan Sood Krishna says to Arjuna in Verse 65 chapter 18, "Give your mind

to me......." and in Verse 66 that "leave everything else and surrender all tome.......'. And the conclusion of mind being unreal, well it was done much

before in verse 4,5 chapter 7 where he classified mind as his lower or grossnature. Now it need not be explained here that gross nature of God is unreal

only.


"..... So you feel it was just a black and white sharing, an intellectual

gymnastic undertaken for mutual gratification by two deluded egos!...."


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I even do not know much about myself. How can I guess for others?

Kora Koos Asato ma sadgamaya: May we move from the unreal (asat) to the

real (sat). How through shravanam (listening intently, respectfully, honestlyto each other questions and responses), mananam (inquiring further for

clarification and insight), nidhidhyasanam (digesting and absorbing theinsight into one's life). This was the way we proceeded, prabhuji.

Kora Koos Jee. Then explain your mind clearly, please. What were behind

those words, with due respect.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Yeah..and that should be also. I agree. And that is weare doing.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Rajan ji,

Please let me know the straight reply of Sri Krishn for this question of

Arjun:cancalam hi manah krsna pramthi balavad dirham

tasyham nigraham manye vyoriva suduskaram...

I normally follow the same words which has been used in Bhagavad Gita.Never try to move zig zag to form some personal opinions using words on

my own.

Rajan Sood Verse number & chapter number please. I need to read Hinditranslation.

Kora Koos So now the thread comes to a beautiful point whereby we see the

way to move together, as one inquisitive attention, enveloping several mindsinvolved in abhyasa, from the unreal to the real. Through this process of

fresh, open, unburdened, ...free inquiry, real learning has taken place. It hasnot produced more knowledge but has triggered the power of insight, the

ability to see things clearly through an expansion of the space of attentionand a liberation of the earlier contracted and compacted energy of

awareness. As long as the spirit of true inquiry is lively and the space and

energy of attention (chidakasha, chitshakti) is not compacted, the unreal'simpact on consciousness will be to a limited degree only. Submitted most

humbly!


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"....Then explain your mind clearly, please. What were behind those words,

with due respect...."

That is what I have raised in my post: What has to be discussed here? And towhat conclusion we have already reached?

Mrityunjayanand Jee Chapter six,Verse thirty four Rajan ji. And I need

straight answer in words of Sri Krishn, not by any other fabrication.

Kora Koos With due permission may kora add the following answer withregard to krishnaji's words: abhyasena vairagyena ca grihyate. The hard-to-

control and fickle mind can be overcome through abhyasa (immediatespiritual inquiry) and vairagya (dispassionate attitude). This was verily the

methodology adopted throughout this thread and can be verified throughexamination.

Mrityunjayanand Jee@Kora Koos,

"...So now the thread comes to a beautiful point whereby we see the way to

move together, as one inquisitive attention, enveloping several mindsinvolved in abhyasa, from the unreal to the real..."

That is in my regular practice,...nothing new and I try to intervene only when

I see some how some where deviations.

"....Through this process of fresh, open, unburdened, free inquiry, reallearning has taken place. It has not produced more knowledge but has

triggered the power of insight, the ability to see things clearly through anexpansion of the space of attention and a liberation of the earlier contracted

and compacted energy of awareness...."

This can be claimed only within Kora Prabhu ji depending upon ownspiritual practices. It has different measure stick for each individual. And I

avoid in any sort of claiming at any stage due to my own personal reasons

and strict spiritual disciplines under which I have grown up.

"...As long as the spirit of true inquiry is lively and the space and energy ofattention (chidakasha, chitshakti) is not compacted, the unreal's impact on


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consciousness will be to a limited degree only..."

No one can deny. Yes.....what is ..is. But again it is individual asset and I

like to keep confined with in me only.

Rajan Sood Arjuna asks Krishna that this mind is very turbulent and

powerful and i consider controlling it as difficult as the wind. And Krishnaanswers that this mind can be controlled by repeated practice and

DISPASSION. --------. Now dispassion can... happen only afterSURRENDER. ---------. Please keep in mind this is a continuous dialogue

between a guru & disciple. Krishna is telling Arjuna in chapter 12, verse 12that Surrender is much much superior to doing practice to the extent that He

gives lowest rank to doing practice. And how can we leave aside theconclusion by Krishna in chapter 18 where He is asking Arjun to surrender

his mind in all respect.---------. When we started we were talking only ofconclusion. So let us stick to the conclusion of Krishna.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Rajan ji,Which will happen how is a different point and that I always prefer to share?

We are here simply for learning and sharing that. But I am talking about theconclusion which you have reached, not Sri Krishn. Please get me reminded

straight where Sri Krishn is telling that mind is unreal?

Rajan Sood Please see verse 4 & 5 chapter 7 where Krishna classifies mindas his lower or gross nature. And a person of your calibre should know that

gross nature is only Unreal.

Kora Koos Please, revered sirs, let's not compact our attention through suchdiscussion, especially on this eve of deepavali so that the inner light is not

smothered. May the gnyanadipam in all of us keep shining and may wenever act as an obstacle to that light. Aum Tat Sat. Leaving the thread

happily with the insights and love.

Rajan Sood Wait a minute Koraji.

Kora Koos ok sir

Rajan Sood M.jee, here is something that you may relish, even if one is able

to control mind by practice, which though is not possible without dispassion,


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the person doing practice will be trapped by EGO. Now no practice on earth

can surpass ego which is the last step to PARBRAHAM.

Kora Koos

......Two birds, inseparable companions cling to the same tree.

One of them eats the sweet fruit, the other looks on without eating.

On a similar tree, the subservient-self sits grieving, absorbed, deluded by itsown impotence.

But when it sees the Other Ruling-Self, in all Its glory, then its grief passesaway.

Mundaka Upanishad

Rajan Sood Right Koraji, the matter is simply of knowing and seeing.Thanks it was a good session today.

Om Kiran yes..the starting at the level of Arjuna is important, to comprehendthe Consciousness of Krishna..........else even the Gita can become just so

much Knowledge , without any awareness ....

Kora Koos OmJi! Welcome back with a brilliant insight to share! Thanks

Om Kiran this thread of yours fascinates me, Kora....it gives expression tosomething i have been perceiving or rather sensing for quite sometime now

Kora Koos Well dear, it was a honest and horizontal sharing with several

minds accepting to operate on the same level with a given mindset eager tolearn freshly here and now without having to jump back into the reservoir of

stored information. There is the feeling that Arjuna showed us the way toright learning through the art of inquiring without holding to his own

preconceived opinions and defending his personal stances; he was OM-OpenMinded and invites us to follow his approach of open-minded inquiry.


"....Please see verse 4 & 5 chapter 7 where Krishna classifies mind as his

lower or gross nature. And a person of your calibre should know that grossnature is only Unreal...."


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Basically I have no caliber now at this stage Rajanji. Of course, there was a

time when this used to happen some how, but now it looks like a very simpleword for me. It is all lost with the passage of time.

But, yes, I remember the verses quoted by you. Sri Krishn says:"I am the creator of all nature with its eight divisions-earth, water, fire, wind,

ether, mind, intellect, and ego."

From Sri Krishn, God, has arisen nature with all its components. This naturewith its eight parts is the lower nature.

And then he says:

"This nature, O the mighty-armed, is the lower, insensate nature, but against

it there is my conscious, living nature which animates the whole world."

The nature with eight parts is Gods lower nature. But, along with this, there

is his conscious nature which impregnates and gives life to the whole world.

But the individual Soul too is "nature" because it is associated with theother, lower nature.

I hope you agree with all these. And both are God's nature. Sri Krishn iswise enough not to use "Unreal"...as being sung here in chorus. Now there is

a question:

If God is real....how HIS lower nature may be called "Unreal"? Is God'slower nature is unreal for us at the stage we are? Is it so?

Now let me add Verse Six of the same chapter also where Sri Krishn says:

"Know that all beings arise from these two natures and that I am both the

creator and the end of the whole world."

All beings spring from these animate and inanimate natures. These are thetwo sources of all life. God (Sri Krishn) is the root of the whole universe,

both its creator and destroyer. It springs from him and is also dissolved in

him. He is the spring of nature as long as it exists, but he is also the powerthat dissolves nature after a sage has overcome its all limitations. At that

satge, Sri Krishn himseLf is a "Doom" too which is a matter of intuition.


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Though I have not yet, but hope, some of us have overcome it's all

limitations and every thing is brought to their intuitions which is expressiblethrough words. And of course, Kora Prabhu ji has already claimed for being

the witness of any such "Doom".

Kindly guide me if I am misleaded some where in presenting my views.Humble wishes.

Kora Koos Moreover, Adhiyagnya is always seated as the EnlighteningPresence in the hearts of all inquirers, ready to guide them forward along the

path of self-inquiry, self-discovery and self-realisation. Our boldness restedtotally on that Presence being there within and among us in that inquiry.

Some may laugh at this, some may see this as disguised arrogance... but this

is a judgement at their own level. We can only welcome them to join us with

the utmost respect and affection.


".... Please, revered sirs, let's not compact our attention through suchdiscussion, especially on this eve of deepavali so that the inner light is not

smothered. May the gnyanadipam in all of us keep shining and may wenever act as an obstacle to that light. Aum Tat Sat. Leaving the thread

happily with the insights and love...."

Inner light always glows in it's own way Kora ji. I feel, Deepawali is not oneday celebration simply.

Kora Koos Thanks for this enlightening remark sir. Wish you the best ofdeepawali ever and ever, today and ever after.

Om Kiran hmm....the reservoir of stored information is a rich heritage we

cannot deny...in fact it a legacy we cherish...but as u say, this is what i amalluding to..the open-mindedness.... the Arjun-Krishna Consciousness..

.there is an Arjun inside... us and the all pervading Krishna Consciousnesstoo within......we have to be open to hearing their voices speak to us from

within and from without....the mistake we make is in trying to kill the Arjun

inside us, in a bid to worship the outer form, of Krishna , reducing him to

medals in our necks, and to stone images to be worshipped , forgetting Hisessence gets stifled inside us with our self-erected barricades...


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Kora Koos Exactly, Omji! Whenever we compact and constrict our

attention, for some reason or the other, can we be open-minded? When ourattention, here and now, is clouded by interferences and references, can webe open-minded? These are not rhetoric questions but real, genuine ones!

Om Kiran yes truly said Kora.....it is this that i have been constantly

referring to.......this tendency to cut the wings of the albatross....it baffles

me......references aimed at enlightening are true light-bearers, indeed i

treasure them the utmost ....but an attempt to compact andconstrict....?.doesnt that betray an underlying sense of insecurity?....for the

light fears not darkness, ..it rather cuts through it, and thus dispels it.....it isthis very Light that seeks to glow through all of the Sacred texts.....do we not

unwittingly try to extinguish it , by trying to constrict it and restrict it...?....


".....Two birds, inseparable companions cling to the same tree.One of them eats the sweet fruit, the other looks on without eating.

...On a similar tree, the subservient-self sits grieving, absorbed, deluded byits own impotence.

But when it sees the Other Ruling-Self, in all Its glory, then its grief passes

away.Mundaka Upanishad......"

Thanks Kora Prabhuji for getting this reminded to me which in fact was

learned in my childhood days. Humble wishes.

Mrityunjayanand Jee@Rajan Sood, "... the matter is simply of knowing and seeing. Thanks it

was a good session today...."

It's universal truth Rajan ji. And we will always have good sessions....

Happy Deepawali!

Kora Koos You said it all so clearly Omji! Constriction and contractioncome from this deep-seated sense of insecurity inherent in the mind because

it feels separate, fragmented - cut off from the whole and it constantly seeksand worships security and any object/person/image promising it security,


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pleasure and power for its safe survival and continuity. Look at any one

being fearful: how they contract and react through flight, fight or freeze.

Kora Koos @Jee. You are most welcome Prabhuji! To care, to share, giving

and forgiving-these values make life worth living.

Mrityunjayanand Jee I am and will always remain at service Kora Prabhu ji.

Rajan Sood Mjee, first on the point of real and unreal. What is real andunreal, there is a feeling that this understanding has to be absolutely clear

before one proceeds with the profound subject of BG.--------------------------.That one which changes, that one which modifies and that one which is

covered by time is UNREAL.-----------. And that which is changeless andtimeless is REAL.----------. Now the 8 elements of God's lower nature are

subject to changes and modifications whereas the pure consciousness whichis the higher nature is CHANGELESS and TIMELESS and so REAL.

Rajan Sood MJee, i have a frank question for you. How will you explain

yourself as to who are you? Perhaps the answer to this will put us togetheron this platform.

Kora Koos Hi RajanJi. Welcome back with a refreshed mind. can Kora sharethe following regarding the real and unreal and the Truth underlying both.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=143346605710477&set=a.14036

7242675080.25143.100001054155607

Tsimi James "If you fill your heart with gratitude for the many blessings

God has given you, you won't have room left for any complaints about thethings you think He hasn't blessed you with." We occasionally need to shed

off old habits & items that burden us and add no value to our lives. There areno shortcuts to any place worth going.


".......I have a frank question for you. How will you explain yourself as to

who are you? Perhaps the answer to this will put us together on thisplatform...."

Thanks Rajan ji for your question, the reply of which is really not known to

me. Though one can find lot of discussions going on this topic on FB....with


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so many findings....but honestly speaking.....even those are not helping me

much. Let this be disclosed to me by my beloved at the rippen time and evenat that stage...am not sure, will be in position to reply you. I beg pardon for

this great inability of mine.

And we are already on one platform.....simply some concepts are clashing

some where, some how and mode of presentation may be.

I feel,Bhagavad Gita is a very delicate scripture to handle and deal with. Andnot only Bhagavad Gita.... most probably all the scriptures which have come

out through enlightened ones.

Normally we discuss one half or one fourth line of a single verse at a timefrom any desired chapter with out referencing it's rhythm and connectivity

with other verses and try to conclude the Yogic terms with half heartedattitude. Geeta verses have been misinterpreted since long unfortunately

because of this attitude which has caused for a serious misleading to entire

mankind. How the Yogic terms get transformed and transplanted properlyfrom one understanding of initial level to concluding understanding of final

level is skipped and a wrong message gets conveyed.

Any one who is not well versed with all the seven hundred verses ofBhagavad Gita, thus gets confused what is what at what stage? For them,

who have a total concept does not matter much.

Language is another barrier to find the exact substitute in other language.Like I do not find the exact substitute of Guru, Karm, Dharm, Yog, Yagya,

Sanskar...and so many in Enlish. Approximate English equivalents may beused but not necessary that the same may reflect the real understandings as

what exactly it is as per Bhagavad Gita.

Now clashes are simply because what ever is conveyed, should have aproper projection with exact reflection using best substituted words to define

the Yogic terms with proper supports. Whole world is here and trying tograsp some thing positive from our discussions. What's the use,...beg pardon

to every one,.....if simply discussions are here with out any solutions and

way outs as per the spiritual norms and lineage of enlightened sages alreadydefined in scriptures.

I feel it is enough for me to submit my views and to add much is of no use


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though many diversions are there. My main view is that our sharing should

be thoughtful, well balanced, excellently calculated with lot of love andfeelings for each other.

Humble wishes.

@Rajan Sood,

"........first on the point of real and unreal. What is real and unreal, there is a

feeling that this understanding has to be absolutely clear before one proceedswith the profound subject of BG......."

Please refer to your post:".....why do you forget that Krishna concluded the

BG similarly by telling Arjun to surrender his mind totally unto him in thevery last verse of BG i.e. 66 of chapter 18. This is not my or Koraji's

conclusion. This is Krishna's conclusion in BG......."

Just below this post, In reply to Kora ji,it is already hinted:...."Truth is never

extinct, at any time-past, present or future and the unreal has never any

being. God is the only reality, eternal and immutable."

I know this by the way Rajan ji.

But I always try to speak in language of enlightened sages as it is. They have

very wisely used the words calculating it's full impact. Where is mylanguage? What I have explored yet? Nothing.......why should I use my

language and interpretations? That is the reason, I normally mention: "SriKrishn says:...."

I will say "mind" unreal if Sri Krishn uses the same word for "mind" any

where while referencing Bhagavad Gita and for which a request of mine isalready with you. Please let me know if you have yet found any where? This

is because "mind" should be understood in Yogic terms.


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=143346605710477&set=a.14036

7242675080.25143.100001054155607

Great gift from Adhiyagnya Kora ji. He also moves according to time, spaceand changing taste of devotees from time to time.


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AUM

One day the Paradox, which hitherto ruled the Intellect, dissolves never to

raise its head again.

The Self now knows the self . The words of the Vedas are its waves, arising,singing, and dissolving in it.

Words can NEVER ever reveal THAT, which is the source of the words.......

the Nothingness, the being, the self.

What more to say, and how ........ round and round , in circles, we keepdancing , making all to dance , ....... the Play goes on. The self remains the

self that it always was. The Ego keeps rejoicing as the self ........ feeling verygrand and ecstatic in the self ............. and yet the one thing NOT realising

...... that it is not yet Dead.

And it is Right that it should be so. There is nothing to despair. So the

Scriptures declare.

Walk the Path.... dear seekers....... walk the Path................. the Final Proof ofyour Death that is Resurrection...... IS your conduct ... the Conduct that is

now the word of the Veda ... in action.

Narinder Bhandari The Enlightened is the mouthpiece of Krishna ...... till the

False is willing ... and chooses to, die to its falseness ...... till it 'surrenders' tothe LIGHT that manifests in the guru........ till it bows to a Guru ... till it

worshps the Guru ............... how will it 'surrender' to its conceptual image ofKrishna... whatever it be in words ....... AH !

Rajan Sood Mjee, humility being a trait of mind is Unreal and will change

into something else sooner or later.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Thanks Rajan ji.

Rajan Sood Mjee, should we make another attempt to come on together at

the platform of BG?


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Kora Koos There are moments where Silence is the best way of

communicating, for words contaminate everything, especially the beauty andclarity of the NOW!

Mrityunjayanand Jee We are already Rajan ji.

Rajan Sood Mjee, if i may ask, who are you--------, body, mind, intellect,ego or soul?

Mrityunjayanand Jee I have already submitted you about my inability.

Please refer my post above.

Rajan Sood Sir, to go on the profound journey of BG, the answer to thisquestion is a must. If one is unable to find answer to this fundamental

question, then a revisit to BG or a guru who knows BG is required.

Narinder Bhandari " The King is Dead.... Long Live the King "(smile with a

wink)....So the Game must go on and on and on ........ AUM

Kora Koos The word is never the thing! They are mere pointers, havingdifferent denotations and connotations for different persons in different

situations. Seeing clearly the limitations of words, one is released from theirgrips and learns to look without the lens of contaminating words. This

approach is so refreshing for kora.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Thanks for support Rajan ji. So nice of you!

Kora Koos @Rajanji! Sir, let us please refrain from giving our opinionsabout somebody's status. Let us instead proceed to inquire about the mind,

the intellect, the ego, the body so that we can see clearly and directly whatthese words point to. Can we do that sir?

Mrityunjayanand Jee And the game is going on...on....and on. Hope, Kora

ji...it will be so refreshing certainly.

Narinder Bhandari the self is the self is the self ..... no narinder, nor kora

(smile )...... and yet ...... narinder is narinder , kora is kora ..... and ...... ( whatmore is left to say or not to say ........ and HOW .....so helpless, so impotent,

so frustratingly unabled) ...................AUM


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Rajan Sood Koraji, what you are pointing to is perfectly alright, but the

situation sometimes force these things to happen.

Mrityunjayanand Jee Let it happen Kora ji what so ever is happening. In the

mean time, I will get time to refresh Geeta pages. And may approach to myGuru also for necessary assistance and to inform about his inability as

well....

Kora Koos Agreed sir! But reactions only constrict our attention andobstruct clarity and empathy. Let us not impose our worldviews or spiritual

views on anyone or anything! Let us try to learn with a fresh, learning mindthat holds on to nothing already gone, let us stick to the now and flow with it

to unlearn, inquire and learn together. We are One operating in differentforms and mental configurations. let us appreciate the difference while not

losing sight of the underlying Unity.

Narinder Bhandari Buddha smiled .....and said >......." YES. NO. ...... (Yes

and No) BOTH ....... (Yes and No) Neither ."............AUM

Rajan Sood Koraji but to proceed on delicate subject of enquiry we musthave awareness of our present position.

Kora Koos MJee & Rajanji! Peace, open-mindedness, affection and

innocence are essential for the flow of learning and sharing to occur.INNOCENCE is primordial: It means not causing hurt and not being hurt.

Let us proceed in our mutual sharing with love and innocence.

Rajan Sood But i do not know if there is hurting happening to anybody. Weare having frank discussion only.

Kora Koos Rajanji! Let us start from the position of not-knowing but willing

to learn from oneself and from our relationship with others. Withoutrelationship, who are we? What are? Relationship is the mirror through

which we can learn to know ourselves better. This is kora's feeling. It maybe right or wrong. But we can always investigate that as well. But

investigate we should not cease...

Mrityunjayanand Jee I am at my Guru's place Kora ji and trying to learn

from zero level. I will certainly join when our levels are the same.


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Dwarka Kalantry Jee: The way I understand is that real and unreal are

philosophical terms. Real = permanent and unreal= that which is changing.In philosophical terms everything is unreal and except one which is real.

Shankara says "Brahm satyam jagan mithya....." Bhagwan says " na sato

vidyate bhavo na bhavo vidyate satah.... 2:16". Dr. Radhakrishnan quotesShankar as follows: Real (sat) as that in regard to which our consciosness

never fails and unreal (asat) as that in regard to which our consciousnessfails. Our consciousness of objects varies but not that of existence. The

unreal which is the passing show of the world veils the unchanging realitywhich is forever manifest. He quotes Ramanuj as saying the unreal is the

body and the real is the soul. He quotes Madhavacharya as saying vidyate-bahvah means duality, there is no destruction of the unmanifest (avyakta)

prakriti. Sat of course is indestructible. The way I understand is that wordscan hint towards the Brahm but they cannot take us there. We do not know

what Bhagwan had in his mind, we do not know what Vyas had in his mindwhen he compiled Gita, we do not know what others have in their mind

when they are interpreting this shastra. There is a story about soup of a soup

of a soup of a soup and ultimately the soup becoming water. Thanks for you

guidance. Best regards.

Narinder Bhandari to every word in this BEAUTIFUL DISCUSSION...... to

each Mahatma, who here commented ..... narinder reverently bows . _/\_AUM

Kora Koos New interesting elements shared by Dwarkaji! Thank you sir!

Rajan Sood Koraji, we are all one Nameless and Formless operating under

many names and forms. We are all at the level of body, mind, intellect andego. Rajan and Mjee and Koraji are all covered under names and forms and

therefore are UNREAL.

Kora Koos So can we unreal folks have an unreal inquiry into the unrealdimensions of body, mind, intellect and ego on this unreal thread?

Rajan Sood Koraji, Krishna's telling Arjun ( alongwith Rajan. Mjee, Koraji

and all body-minds ) , not to stick to the Unreal but instead surrender it after

explaining him the facts.


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Rajan Sood Krishna says all of our miseries is only because of our

identification with body and mind. We have all gone wrong for trying tocontrol that which we are not and so cannot control.

Om Kiran that which is Transitory is Unreal , in that at some point in Time itwill dissolve into nothingness......the body, the mind, the intellect, the

ego......these can be assets to the Energy that lies entrapped within them, orthey can be liabilities......they r a Reality in as far as they control the course

of this Energy......this Energy which is a miniscule atom of that InfiniteForce that they have sprung from....is what we refer to as the

Self.......Liberation is the state when the Self is free from the impact of allthat is Transitory.....that is when it rests in the Reality of the

Infinite...leaving nothing more to be Realized......

Rajan Sood All of our attempts to become enlightened are at the level ofbody mind only which will lead us to nowhere. Surrender of identification

with body-mind is the only way out. Krishna is asking for your HEAD

straight. This is possible only after the GYAN of real and unreal.

Kora Koos Can we say that unreal means transitory and perishable? If body-mind-intellect-ego are transitory and unreal, can we, the result of these

unreal aspects, ever touch the Real, the Source, the Ground? Is Liberationfrom the unreal the death of what we unreally are?..........If any attempts at

body-mind level is futile, on the basis of what can we posit that surrender ofidentification, which obviously is an attempt, is different? Let us meditate on

that....

Om Kiran firstly Rajanji....one does not Become enlightened...enlightenmentdawns with the evolving of the Self...that is when the Self recognizes the

Self...True..Surrender of identification with body -mind is the only wayout......from darkness to Light.....if by Head, the reference is to this

Identification, then again, yes.......coz it is this identification with thetransitory that binds us to the Unreal, holding us back from Realizing that

which is Real......

Rajan Sood Koraji, Surrender happens after the Knowledge of what is what.

You do not have to do anything, including meditation, for that.

Rajan Sood Ignorance is our only Enemy, says Ramana Maharishi.


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Om Kiran When the Self too says this.....one is well on his way.....

Rajan Sood Omkiranji. enlightenment is a happening and definitely not the

doing.

Om Kiran right ......but this is not to fall into the fallacy of shifting the focus

from the doer absolutely and throwing it entirely upon an outsideforce....some effort from the Self is definitely required.....here is where the

body, mind, and intellect could be valuable assets, rather than becomeliabilities......

John Wilson As I try to tell my friends, "you are already enlightened, you

just haven't accepted the responsibility/possibility of that yet."

Rajan Sood Wondorful John. But this awakening establishes a little laterwhen the EGO dies totally of starvation. You see ego can only die of

starvation if not fed with any doing whatsoever.

Om Kiran i say this becoz, if one belies the doer-ship entirely, it would

follow that the reverse of enlightenment......that is allowing oneself to sinklower into darkness would also mean that one is not responsible for any of

one's conduct.......base...r natures would manifest themselves, throwing fullblame on the outside force, taking no responsibility whatsoever for the do-

er-ship.....the forces at the disposal of the Self..the mind, the intellect, theego could cause havoc to the surrounding, and accept no responsibility

whatsoever.....while one cannot deny the influence of the rajo gun, or thetamo gun....the Self has to make an effort in the direction of letting the

Satwa gun triumph..

Kora Koos What if, body, mind, intellect, ego are natural instruments ofexperience and experience processing and are the creators of reality as we

experience it through these?

Rajan Sood Omkiranji, Krishna is advising Arjun to fight the battle and donot worry for any bad conduct. He even supports the evil while killing

Dronacharya and Karan. He tells Arjun: you with your tiny intellect cannot

decide what is right and wrong.


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Kora Koos What if reality is a living actuality just like our body, mind,

intellect, ego. So the instruments create reality and are part of the experienceof reality at the same time.

Rajan Sood Koraji, body-mind-intellect and ego are unreal and canexperience all which is unreal i.e. world and matter. These instruments

cannot experience the REAL.

Kora Koos Rajanji! Please let us move very slowly by observing now thefacts as we apprehend them freshly and not as per any previously held

conclusion. Kora is saying this also to himself so that a fresh discovery canbe made about this very delicate issue. Direct immediate seeing is the best

way to learn, would you agree with this sir?

Om Kiran Krishna advised Arjun not to let the physical aspect of hisrelationships to cloud his heart n mind, when fighting evil.....

Rajan Sood Sure sir.

Rajan Sood Budha says, "events happen, deeds are done but there is no doerthereof ". Do we agree to this with experience and not intellectually. Let us

start with this.

Narinder Bhandari ah, Rajan Bhai...... is this effort to begin a new discussion........ is it a Doing or an Happening ??? (smile)

Umesh Davda It all leads to developing ones faith and devotion towards

him, its just that we are shown different paths to get there, depending on ourown state of mind and intellect

Kora Koos So let us consider what we understand by reality. Is there any

reality for us without the instruments of experience processing? It wouldseem that these naturally endowed instruments of experience create reality,

which is made up of objects, events, sensations, thoughts, feelings, impulses,living entities in the biosphere. These instruments of experience producing

reality at individual level are also objects of experience. Let us stop here and

look actually whether this is so.

Rajan Sood Narinderji, please consider everything as a happening only.


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Om Kiran its a happening in so far we choose to allow it to happen..

Tsimi James smiles; as he listens to this interesting array of words coming

from nothingness...I prefer zero and go from here...silence is AUM

Rajan Sood Koraji, i think others are bored with our never ending

discussion. We can stop for now and later on discuss via e-mail.

Om Kiran ha ha Rajan ji....

Umesh Davda total surrender is to leave it all to Krishna to chart ones lifeahead we just do our Karmas according to His teachings ,just take sant

Surdas Example, total devotion, total surrerder .

Kora Koos Sir, knowledge is always bored with the livingness of actualreality, which is uncertain, unconclusive, just like the ordinary movements

of the universe. It is so and we should accept and respect that, too.

John Wilson KK, It appears that "reality" differs from person to person,

depending upon how they identify thems(or S)elves. It becomes a matter ofwhich "instruments of experience" one chooses to utilize. Thus, having no

Absolute reality, we can better understand and interact with "relativereality".

Kora Koos Everything and everyone in this existence provide us with an

opportunity to learn about ourselves first, boring people. Thanks John Sir,you are always there to shed new light and help us move forward in an

inquiry undertaken for actual learning and discovering.

Kora Koos So moving further in the true spirit of learning, one could askwhether the naturally endowed instruments of experience, which create

relative reality, are to be considered as unreal, when they form part of realityas we experience them actually? This point was pertinently raised by M.Jee

earlier on.

Om Kiran Narinder ji....Silence born out of Realization is the

Ultimate.......but Silence pregnant with conflict?.....the conflict needs to beaddressed Narinderji......till it resolves itself into that Ultimate Silence.....


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Tsimi James ~ "if nothing changes, nothing will change"

~ "If I always do what I've always done, I'll always get what I've always got"~ "I've created my reality"

John Wilson To do so would be to deny the divinity.

Narinder Bhandari yes, yes, yes ......................of course YES !!! That verilyis the Truth ! AUM KIRAN Jee .................(smile)

Kora Koos Thank you Tsimiji for being what you feel you are and for

sharing that with us.

John Wilson One need not create dualism and deny aspects of Creation.Thus, be aware of things as they are. Be aware of the gods living and

breathing through you; be aware of people in need; be aware of your ownhumanity and divinity.

Kora Koos John sir! Received with an open heart!

John Wilson Thus, one does one's duty as Krishna counsels. Thus, oneremembers that one is not the "doer" and creates neither attachment nor

aversion within one's emotional body.

Kora Koos Received sir!

Rajan Sood Koraji, i am not sthitpragya as yet. I was always there on thisthread and can surely continue.

Kora Koos So if the instruments of experience processing are part of our

reality, they are real in this sense, as testifiable by our instrumentsthemselves, although transient.

Kora Koos So if we see them as real and tangible now, though temporary,

what is unreal then? Can we inquire into this if we are clear about the realityof our instruments of experience? Let us digest this part first and then move

forward at a future time, if you agree, sir.

Rajan Sood The unreal can only see unreal. We know that REAL is one

which is changeless and timeless.


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Rajan Sood Any attempt to understand REAL with Unreal is going to fail

miserably.

Kora Koos Rajanji! You have taken a quantum leap and left poor kora alone

in this inquiry. Please, sir, bear with kora's snail-like pace.

Tsimi James A man may conquer a million men in battle but one whoconquers himself is, indeed, the greatest of conquerors. The Buddha

Kora Koos kora will be back soon! Thank you all for contributing in our

inquiry, though imperfect and clumsy. Genuine thanks and respect.

Rajan Sood Koraji, you are quite an advanced body-mind with greatdiscriminatory power.

Tsimi James My mind is a terrible master but a wonderful servant. I choose

to direct my mind and not to allow it to govern who I am.

Tsimi James ~Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot

change,the courage to change the things I can

and the wisdom to know the difference.~

"Bright Blessings

Kora Koos @Tsimi. U R a mastermind sir. Chapeau!!!

Kora Koos So there are the instruments of experience and reality processing:body with its organs of experience and action; mind capturing and

integrating experiencing and reacting to it through memory, needs, impulses;intellect making sense of the mental rendering and reacting and also reacting

upon the experience on the basis of rationality or its absence, morality or itsabsence, reflective thinking on the basis of accumulated templates and

beliefs; and ego identifying with the body-mind-intellect complex and

everything tied to it and separating it from the flowing movement ofexistence and experiencing by continuous self-talking, by breaking thedifferent aspects and components of experience processing and making them

talk or think in an automatic and focused manner. This natural activity of theego narrows down the space and energy of attention, restricting it to its own

circle of occupations and preoccupations...Can we see that actually taking

place in us and share on this?


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Kora Koos Memory connecting to the space and energy of mind becomes

the flow of images of past occurrings together with the talking (it's an audio-visual flow in consciousness). Needs connecting to mind become desires to

acquire and/or become for a sense of fulfilment and the mind talks these

desires out to itself. Impulses connecting to the mind become feelings,emotions, reactions, demands that contract the attention of the mind in an

exclusive manner. Mind activated by memory, impulses and needs operateson the principle of seeking pleasure and power and avoiding/escaping pain

and impotency. Mind keeps itself busy through such connections andprinciples. It continuously weaves stories and scenarios in an attempt to

survive, expand and enjoy. It keeps telling itself tales in an automaticmanner.

Rajan Sood Koraji, it looks this is the way things are happening at our level

which is unreal. You see the unreal means that it modifies itself withinnumerable variables. But on the whole this is how mind, intellect and ego

are perceiving the reality.

John Wilson It is by knowing that you are not mind, ego, intellect, by deeplyexperiencing the Self, that you can keep these instruments in proper tune and

perspective, so that they work harmoniously for the Self and soul (rather

than creating their own needs/desires/aversions). That is why one meditatesand sets such aside regularly.

Rajan Sood John i will go with your way of understanding only. First know

what is real and unreal. Then automatically the unreal gets surrendered and

the Real shines. But who meditates?

John Wilson The divine pure Consciousness is always in meditation; it is a

matter of your faculties becoming aware of that Real Self.

Rajan Sood Sir, my point is the unreal can never be aware of the real. Andthe moment unreal falls on natural surrender, the Real shines. Peace and

harmony are the outcomes when the Real shines.

John Wilson I can only comment from my own personal experience. Mindand body do learn to recognize meditative awareness (and their need for it). I

do not consider mind and body and senses to be unreal, merely much lessthan the whole picture. They are not antithetical to spiritual experience; it is


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just that it takes patient, loving awareness to integrate them into spiritual

life.

Rajan Sood All right sir.

Narinder Bhandari Light needs an object to express itself ................... the

Atma (Nothingnes, the being) needs a body to express itself ....... and an ego-mind to create the universe of sentient drama.(smile) AUM

Kora Koos Intellect is the storehouse of learned and acquired principles,

standards, values, ideals, cultural norms, rationality, logic, cause and effectlinking, inquiry, beliefs, philosophies, worldviews, that influence our

choices in life, guide our decisions and direct our actions, impulses,emotions, conscious thoughts. It is a dominant part of the mind space and

energy and pulls attention towards itself when active.

Kora Koos Habitually, the space and energy of the intellect are focused on

background information already stored and valued in memory. Theseinformation are either first-handed experiences or borrowed principles,

values, information that are learned, internalised and incorporated in thespace for referencing and support. Just like mind, intellect talks to itself and

to the other parts of the mind and this talking produces thoughts. Intellecthas also the capacity of fresh, unbiased inquiry when it detaches from the

background information. Its space and energy is then pure, fresh and morelively; this renders clear learning, understanding and communicating

possible. This becomes possible when the intellect sees the limitations ofhabitual ratiocination and sets it aside. So intellect is both an asset and a

liability.

Kora Koos Ego is a sense of being a distinctive unit of consciousness,separate from the rest of existence. It is thought identifying with a particular

body-breath-brain-mind-intellect configuration and setting the latter againstother configurations in an immense and ever-changing world of experience.

It is a mental image of what the mind-intellect think, believe, perceive andfeel they are on the basis of existing information acquired, assimilated and

incorporated. It is a factor of identification and separation in consciousness.

Being separative, segregative, it is rooted in insecurity and fear. This causesa constant contraction of awareness or attention when ego is active. Ego may

at one point in time identify with impulses and fight against intellect; it mayidentify with memories and move away from mental attention in the now; it


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ripples in this ocean of awareness such as hunger or thirst and this need-

ripple immediately triggers off survival impulses that are embedded in themind, acquired from anterior generations of experiences and transmitted

through the genetic build-up. It also registers responses and reactions from

the immediate surrounding. All these are recorded in memory bank andrecalled from memory and become the reference points and conditionings

that gradually build competing chambers in the open space of attention orawareness. This constriction in consciousness leads to the birth of the

individual, the indivisible one becoming two or more. This finally results inpartial attention in the primordial awareness during wakeful state of

consciousness.

Kora Koos The deep sleep is conscious and subconscious attention departingwith the possibility of coming back. At this level, consciousness shuts itself

off and severs all conscious and subconscious contacts with body, mind,intellect and ego. It is called unconscious state as there is no consciousness,

no reality, no instrument, nothing. This state is essential for the organism to

passively recharge and heal itself. It is a state where life operates withoutconscious or subconscious assistance. The intelligent indivisible life

animating the organism and the universe then takes charge of everything.This unhindered and free flowing of the energy of life replenishes the system

and facilitates healing. Breath goes on automatically, so do sweating, heart-beating, digestion, digestion, circulation, etc. The real owner of the house is

then alone, doing its work in the organism within the established scheme ofnature.

Narinder Bhandari KK .... narinder would just like to know ...... whether

these thoughts expressed above ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are from , essay, writings or aBook ............ IF SO, please give its reference so that... it could be read and

gained from...... IF not so...... and these are words written by you ... then,that is really a great Gift of God, and it is time that you began compiling

and writing these in the Form of a Book and publishing the same. .......Thankyou KK .............AUM

Kora Koos @ Narinderji! Sir, these thoughts are just flowing freely and

spontaneously through the meditative mind and you know its origin. It just

sings the song, afresh, without any motive or desire. It is like the birdsinging completely indifferent to the onlooker, who may be attentive or

inattentive. It just flows naturally and kora just attends and enjoys.


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Narinder Bhandari narinder feels blessed in knowing it...... and blessed is the

KK self ....... what a magnificent flow from Silence ..... AUM

Kora Koos For sure this is not kora's own making. It is being imparted now

to kora who is just sharing it playfully. U know well the NATKHAT:playful, virtuous and compassionate.

Narinder Bhandari yes...............AUM

Kora Koos So the indivisible one Life animating, sustaining and allowing

existence to be existence flows also through this organism and is the realruler, owner, disposer. This organism is but the universe or existence in a

given conscious form undergoing conscious, subconscious and unconsciousexperiences. It is the geosphere taking a conscious form. It is also the whole

biosphere of living entities taking a form through the process of evolution. Itis also human consciousness incarnating in particular body-mind

configurations through the process of procreation. This conscious human

organism is the only living form through which LIFE can experience

ITSELF not through the conditioned instruments of experience but throughthe primordial awareness, inherited at birth. This primordial, undifferentiatedawareness, is but LIFE's connection with the conscious mind. Attention is

the key to realisation. Constricted attention, fragmented and segregative,generates the shadow of LIFE, the ego consciousness. When constricted

attention stops, then the proper conditions for SELF REALISATION takesplace. In the state of total attention in awareness, here and now, the

Enlightening One shines Its Light and there is fulfilment immediately. Thestories, tales and myths disappear leaving space for truth to shine.

Kora Koos So Truth, Life, underlies and sustains reality, which is made up

of real and unreal aspects. Truth shines in the domain beyond both the realand unreal. It is the cosmic immanent, the absolute transcendent, yet also

embodied individual. Hari Om Tat Sat.

Ramaswamy Sathyanarayanan @KKji, That is why perhaps Lord Krishna,says Jagat itself is Mithya, though it appears to be SATYAM. As regards

attention being key, my guru puts it in a different form. One should know

"What the Problem Is", "What is it's Extent" and "What is not the Problem".He would insist that these should close to your heart for a solution. That is

the only way one can develop attention.


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Rajan Sood KKji, your detailed analysis points to the important

understanding that," Consciousness is all there is ". Consciousness makesboth the real as well as unreal. Sticking with unreal means up/down because

of instability and sticking with real is peace borne out of stability.

Ramaswamy Sathyanarayanan

Udharedatmanatmanam Natmana Mava SadayetAtmaiva Hiatmano Bandhu Rathmaiva Ripuratmanah ll 6 5 ll

It is now clear thanks to your elaborate and powerful explanation forAttention being key, it does not sense for one to try to focus on his negatives

to remove the ills that confront one, rather concentrate on the positives. Oneneeds to develop more positives, perform his duties as laid down in his

Varna Ashrama. The catch is negatives (Vasanaas), it should move awayfrom one and not the other way round.

Kora Koos The key is attention, which is meditation: attending to any arising

in consciousness and any occurrence in existence as captured by the

instruments of experience without any conscious reaction or avoiding of the

actuality of what is. The door is awareness, integrated attention in awarenessand the vision through the open door is truth, underlying, sustaining,allowing everything. Vasudevam sarvam iti, purusha evedam sarvam,

sarvam khalu idam brahma--Oneness, Nondual, Experiencing.

Kora Koos @Rajanji! Dear this is not just analysis. It is seeing what is, hereand now as it is revealed in awareness without a seer, knowing without a

knower....

Kora Koos So what is false? False is all the egoic stories, tales, unverifiedbeliefs, hasty conclusions, shortcut explanations, mythologies that are

concocted through limited attention and held as true and real. One has to seethe false as false for the false to disappear. The seeing itself is the doing,

without a doer.

Steve Kane Well Kora - i have started apparently from that state and onlyread the Gita properly (having owned an almost unread copy for 20yrs) in

the last few months. Most of my comments on Mji's status posts were sightunseen - yet he reacted as if i had long studied it. Either we have all read it

before or else as i said at the time "it is as if there is a city that i have lived inand explored for many years (lifetimes?) and suddenly come upon a map ofthat city, accurate to the last detail. That map is the Gita.


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Kora Koos Rajanji! The should is a contraction of attention, a movement

away from the actuality, from the fact. This is not philosophicalunderstanding; it is immediate, direct seeing, which has an action of its own-

an action ungraspable by mind, intellect, ego. This seeing is intelligence,

right action and compassion. See it, sir, not intellectually, notphilosophically, but actually, meditatively, relaxingly, with full attention.

Kora Koos @Steve. Sir, this is not just about Gita; it's about life, reality and

us as we inquire and learn with a fresh and curious mind, ready to err andrestart.

Steve Kane .... and perhaps the blessing of many lifetimes of growth and in

my case in this lifetime - just enough glances through the window into pastlives to own their lessons and avoid their pitfalls "been there - done that".

Kora Koos Rajanji! Pause and look directly, immediately at the mind,

beyond concepts about what the mind is. Then direct seeing has animmediate enlightening action, which comes through the attentive mind but

which is not of the mind. It is really difficult to convey through words. Theconfusion is apparent only to the mind that sees through some lens. With due

respect sir!

Steve Kane Yes K i could say that too - but you could also say what i say -like i say

Kora Koos @Steve. Two guruless learners on the same pathless journey,

enjoying the panorama and sometimes smiling, singing, dancing or doing

just nothing. Or wash the dishes, sing with our beloved wife as we see theclouds passing through the blue sky while enjoy the universing andexperiencing.

Steve Kane Yes K - but i like to share with you - and with fb i think thatsharing is to see each other teach - and still to be taught as we teach.

Kora Koos Guru is one: Kshetragnya, Adhiyagnya, ever and ever. The Lightbehind the veil, the Enlightening One, ever and ever.

Kora Koos Tathastu!!! Visarjanam (Leaving). Hari Om Tat Sat.

Miriam Strauss We should empty our cups. Thank you


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Ramaswamy Sathyanarayanan @KKji, "Key is Meditation". Meditation is

not that easy. Assuming that it is easy, will it be able to burn away theresults of your karma? In fact Meditation is so difficult, that VIVEKA

CHUDAMANI, it is told, the first step towards mediation is "Silencing the

tongue" How does one explain this?

Rajan Sood Koraji, thanks for acknowledging my participation in this postof yours. I was busy today so could not read your comments properly which

will be doing now.

Om Kiran @Kora Koos.......i really would like to see this Questionanswered......for me what came from deep within me has been the

Gita.....there is an Arjun inside me..and there is a Krishna whose flute seemsto sing to me, when the Arjun finds himself on the Kurukshetra......and

something tells me, that We are the temples in whom resides the Supremeforce, the Force manifests itself within us and around us.....in evry atom of

Creation, is its Being felt....we cannot confine its presence to a mere

Murthy....or a temple.....

Kora Koos @Kiran. You said it clearly dear! Embodied, immanent &transcendent. Vasudevam sarvam iti. Where is IT not? It underlies, sustains,

animates, allows, absorbs, enlightens, covers, encompasses, and ISeverything, anything, something and nothing. This can never be approached

intellectually or verbally. It is felt when the Enlightening Light ofUndifferentiated Awareness shines in the sensitive, alert, receptive and

attentive mind, that is not engaged in some attention constricting activity.

Kora Koos @Ramaswamyji! Sir let us forget everything others have saidabout meditation. It is their own personal views and difficulties. Let us start

with where and what we are. Meditation is being aware of any arising inconsciousness, just paying attention to our inattention or lack of attention

without any form of judgment or reaction. If we judge and react, even thatshould be attended to. We should never seek to create silence; this is a form

of egoic contraction trying to impose its own petty conditions on what isactually happening. This letting-go and allowing of what is happening in

consciousness triggers a flame, that consumes the conditions and factors

constricting attention. This is the strangest of miracles, by doing nothing,things begin to change. Have you ever heard of Ikshana Kriya, whereby

chaos becomes total order by the very compassionate looking of Narayana?If before we begin anything we hold views that it is difficult, then it becomes


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a self-fulfilling prophecy. The key to silencing the tongue or talking, which

is a constriction of attention, is med

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