Experience and Meaning in Music Performance – Chapter 6 ...€¦ · Experience and Meaning in...

Experience and Meaning in Music Performance – Chapter 6 – McGuiness – Interview transcripts

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BIRDBATH

Participants Ben Heal (BH) Andrew McGuiness (AM)

Location Green Lanes Date 21 April 2007 Source DV videotape Transcribed by Andrew McGuiness Date 17 August 2007 Acknowledgements Fieldwork funded by Open University

Time Actor Transcript 0.00 AM It’s twenty-first of April 2007, I’m talking to Ben from birdbath . . . 0.07 BH That’s correct 0.07 AM ... plays bass in birdbath. And we’re in Green Lanes, London. 0.09 BH . . . yeah . . . 0.15 AM OK, so just to get us started, Ben, tell me how you started playing music. 0.19 BH Well I started just quite...in a quite random way when I was at school, just had a few – a

friend of mine was in a band, and he played bass, and they basically – one lunchtime they roped me into going into the music room and we started – I think we - it was the first time I’d played bass and they taught me how to play Whole lotta Rosie by AC/DC. And we just jammed that out, you know - first time playing an instrument, and I was kind of buzzing from that and I took the school bass home and started playing, and kind of, just taught myself basically. Obviously my friend helped me out with a few basics but that’s pretty much it. Yeah, and I’ve just been playing bass since then [...] and been in a few bands obviously after that - birdbath was the first thing that started off with me – well, Tim and Simon got together first, and they obviously heard that I was playing and teaching myself how to play, and I was friends of theirs anyway, because we used to go skateboarding and stuff together as well – we just got together at Simon’s house, with no preconceptions as to what we were going to do or what we were going to sound like. We had a few bands that we were into at the time, like the Jesus Lizard, Bivouac, and Sebadoh I think were big things pushing us on. We got together and just played whatever. Tim went on the drums by default, he wasn’t the specific drummer, we used to jam together just me and Tim, just guitar and bass, so he was almost a guitarist before going to the drums on default, and Simon was always a guitarist, playing – you know he played in a couple of bands before that. We just jammed together and made a lot of noise really. We would record it, onto tape, just onto a normal standard tape recorder through a tiny little microphone and we would then go out and have a fag and listen to what we produced for the last couple of hours, and yeah – we enjoyed it very much. And managed to get a gig off of that, and – see various things happened, we stopped playing together so regularly – various commitments, I went off to university and – various other things, but in the meantime I played in a few other bands, I’ve been in a noise-punk band and I’ve played with a couple of friends when I was at uni, doing something a bit more indie-experimental, a bit more Pavement or Mogwai-inspired stuff. But birdbath has always been there on the backburner, so even when I was at uni Simon would call me


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and say ‘Look, we can play’ and we would be - I would be quite happy to do that, we’d go back and rehearse for a couple of hours and then play the gig the next day, I seem -I remember we did that a couple of times. It was always very much nervous thing whether or not we could –actually be able to play the songs. We’d been playing them a few years and we’d have the tapes to listen to, but it was always quite nerve wracking – but then that added to the excitement and the buzz of the whole thing really. And it’s only recently that we’ve being doing it on a more – you know, since Luke’s come in we’ve been doing it a little bit more professionally, I suppose, trying to get songs down and understanding exactly what we’re doing. As it was very much more a laid back thing that we were doing before.

AM Yeah … and so, you don’t have any music theory? BH I have absolutely none. I can tell you the name of the strings, the four strings on the bass,

or the six strings on the guitar, just about. I know nothing really about scales, I know some of the notes on the fret board but not all of them and I get them wrong, so I do rely a lot on Simon and Tim to get that right. But I have no music experience at all, don’t – can’t read music or anything, so …

AM Good. [Aahh -] BH [I mean] that’s almost an intentional thing, I want to kind of keep that kind of mystery

there, really, in that - I looked at playing the bass, I wanted - because everyone wanted to be a guitarist or anything at school I decided bass was for me because people weren’t doing anything interesting with the bass. I wanted to take - look at the bass from a layman’s perspective, a non - someone who hasn’t been taught how to play a bass properly. So that’s why I started working with bass chords and trying to treat it a bit more like a guitar, rather than just the bass notes of a bass, I wanted to explore the higher end of the bass’s range really and try and explore that.

AM So when you play chords, how do you find those? BH Well, somebody told me, taught me – it’s almost the Nirvana thing, somebody showed

me a power chord, which is have one finger on that string and the then the other finger three frets - two frets up. And just playing that - I would just do that on the bass, stretch my fingers across and just play like that. And with a bit of distortion, that just creates a lot of power, so I would enjoy that.

AM But, so, do you know the notes when you’re doing that, or - BH No, no not at all. AM Is that – you know I get the impression because … the lack of theory – I don’t see it as a

lack, but not having music theory is quite common to rock musicians. And some of them sort of recognize that it’s – sort of like you said – that it’s something that they’re way better off without.

BH Yeees. But it’s something I’d like to know more about, but at the same time there’s always the fear there now, of becoming - because if I was to go to a bass teacher and say, ‘Teach me how to play bass properly and teach me music theory and enable me to read music, write music, write parts,’ - although that might be helping me to be more thorough and make more precise compositions and be able to understand what I’m doing more, in a way I’d prefer not to understand And, just using my ear, what I’m playing – it’s a longer-winded, a more long-winded approach possibly. A lot more of it is about the feeling. And again, with birdbath, the thing is to jam things out, and keep playing things over and over until it sounded good to each of us, at that time.


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AM So, the repetition thing – that’s another thing that you find in rock – repetition of a groove, or a pattern, a riff, or something like that. Anything more you can say about that? [About how it works?]

BH [No – ((laughs))]. No, not really. Again, going back to our first band practice I can sort of remember playing this one riff that was basically the only thing that I could work out how to play that sounded good to me and I could continue to play it, and we just would play it for a half an hour, an hour at a time, just playing this same riff. And building on it, or changing it slightly, but carrying on and persevering with it until it sounded good to us really, and we - it was almost like you - we would all get a buzz out of what we were playing and at the end of it we were all like, ‘Yeah, that was, good fun, we enjoyed that,’ so – that’s pretty much it.

AM OK, so, the changing thing. Say you’re playing a riff and you think, ‘Oh, I’ll try something else, I’ll try to change it.’ What do you think of doing, how do you go about changing it.

BH I really don’t know, there’s actually, there’s - I’m thinking about what I’m playing, I’m thinking about the notes I’m playing, and I’m thinking about how I can maybe move up the scale and lift it up. It’s one of the first things you learn, I remember when my friend told me how to play a 12-bar blues or something like that, which is just changing the key, you think about doing that in a change, but with me, if I’m, if I was playing with birdbath it would be a riff, and I would be thinking about how I could play that riff as chords, or reduce the riff to chords, just even – um, you know, simplify it, if there were four or five notes in the bass riff, then I would cut it down to three notes, using sort of the punk standard, sort of three chords, reduce it to that, and that would be how it would go with changes. And that would come as a random experiment, sometimes it works sometimes it isn’t. (if) it didn’t work, go back to the riff, carry on then come up with - try and change it again, and it was all very much a trial and error thing when we started. Now I’ve started - now we’ve got to a stage where we’re bouncing ideas off each other and Tim will say, ‘Oh, try doing this,’ or ‘I’m going to – maybe we should change it this way, or do – have a stop, or have a build,’ or do lots of various other little tricks that we can do to try and change the song in the middle of the song. That is becoming - the better we are at playing together the more dramatic those shifts (tend) to become. A lot of it is about trying to deconstruct the song, and trying – reduce, almost reducing it to its base elements, and then scratching it and changing it completely midway through a song. So you’ve got one idea going through and then changing it completely, so - Almost like we’re playing games with the listener, saying, ‘This where this is going now, but no it’s not!’, you know, it’s like, “aha!” (?) like poking fun. And you know, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t but it’s quite difficult to know whether that’s working or not. But if it’s fun or us when we’re playing it, then that’s, really, especially with birdbath, that’s all that matters. We’re not looking to pander to an audience or anything, we just want it to stay interesting to us. And again we’re trying to sound like, or like not sound like but emulate bands we like that do things that surprise us and make us think you know - Shellac or whatever, would be a band that does things that makes us slightly surprised partway through and if we can try and emulate that, try and do something which keeps people like us interested in our music then that’s the main thing. Cause in a way we’re our own - you’ve got to be in a way your own biggest fan, otherwise what’s the point of doing it really, you’ve gotta enjoy what you do. [That’s it.]


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AM [Absolutely …] BH - even if you know your shortcomings and you know where you could be better. AM OK, you mentioned some influences and the fact that you like drama and surprise in the

structure of the songs and so on. Is there anything else you can say about what you like about music, why you play the music you play, and why you like the music that you like? - as opposed to any other kind of music.

BH Well I think it comes from a – I mean I - well look at me and Tim as well, and Simon (…), we grew up with a lot of indie bands that would be doing something that’s got a melody to it, a lot of power chords and a lot of distorted power riffs, which kind of – you used to get a euphoric feel and you’d jump up and down. I remember going to see Pavement and we’d all be - you know in the moshpit everyone jumping up and down in time with that rhythm. So a lot of it comes from that, but then – that’s over 10 years ago that we were listening to that sort of music, and as you get older, you look for those elements but you like them to be more broken down or introducing other styles of music, like you’ve got blues bands that came out of that, like Jon Spencer Blues Explosion which sort of try and explore that area. You’ve got other bands, like now you’ve got a lot of bands that are trying to explore disco beats, with that same sort of – it’s, I mean it’s all basically a punk aesthetic as well, it’s all bringing everything down to it’s basics of - cause a lot of the punk bands couldn’t even play, they just played the three chords and experiment with themselves, like, you know, Wire – when they s- their first album is a classic experimental record in that they’re trying to deconstruct each song and trying to keep it a lot more simple, and then - finding a base point and then moving in a different direction from that baseline. And again, as I say after we kind of almost grew out of all these indie bands in the early 90s we were looking for something more and at the same time I was introduced to a lot of hardcore and post-hardcore bands, like, again, coming out of punk you’ve got Wire, and Dead Kennedys, and other bands that are exploring different aspects of simplicity, really at that stage. And of course then you’ve got Jesus Lizard and Shellac and, they’re American bands who are trying to – again - strip everything down top the basics of just bass, drums, guitar, and vocals, and trying to in a simple but powerful way explore the dynamics of each member and each instrument of the band, as a unit. And again we just continue to listen and explore ‘cause, again, as a band, we’re all fans of music and fans of the music that we like and we’ll constantly be exploring and looking for different bands that sing to us, that say, that’s something that we’re really into, and that’s something that’s different and quite exciting, and we’re always trying to do – trying to explore that with our own music as well. So …

AM Yeah. (7 second pause) OK, moving on to process generally. You spoke a little bit about – how do songs get written, from scratch.

BH Well, occasionally, it will be one or other of us has been working on a riff. But, probably – as birdbath, it’s probably best if I explain it from when we started, when it was literally going into a room and we would just start making noise. (I mean it would come up) with me almost literally playing one note or one chord, then Simon would add guitars and Tim would be adding the rhythm behind it with the drums and we would just - again – work on that until it sounded good. (Then) we’d have a section of a song, possibly we’d look at adding other sections, moving it in a different direction, but basic - you know,


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we’d come up with basic riffs; record it on a tape; listen back to the tape; and say, ok, trying to sort of, you know, visualize it – visualize not being the right word, but try and get an idea of where that riff can go, where we can take that.

AM Just going back a step, the basic riff – (so you go on like) someone plays a riff and you play something with it, do you check like, this is the note that it’s based around, or do you just like . .

BH Sometimes. Sometimes, especially at the beginning because I couldn’t really – because I had no musical training or musical knowledge at all, I wouldn’t be able to play what I could hear Simon playing, so Simon would be saying, ‘Well, I’m doing this,’ – you know Simon would be playing a riff and I’d be thinking – trying to keep up, and not really, you know not really getting it right and Simon would then help me out, ‘Oh, you need to play this note,’ (I mean like,) “Which note is that?’ and he’d point out on the fret board which note I should be playing and then I’d have the bass note to work with and then I could work around that note and try and make that sound right with Simon. Again, it’s something that you learn over time, you know, you try and imp[rove from that. But again, more recently, with the newer songs that we’ve done, came as -(a) few of the new songs came as ideas that I had when I was playing with y other bands that weren’t right for the other band, (I) thought, ‘OK, I could bring that in with birdbath.’ I had started jamming with Tim, so it’s just bass and drums and so I’d have these riffs and I had an idea of where I wanted them to go and Tim would add drums to it so we had a basis of a song and then I’d – Simon – (we’d phone Simon and ) Simon’s other band, he had a break from his other band, he came in, added some guitar over the top, ‘cause again Simon’s quite good at – he’s got a good ear for listening to what I’m playing and he can know what would sound good in his own style over the top of what me and Tim were doing. So that’s where those songs sort of came from. But again, other times Simon will have a riff that he’ll bring to the band and say, ‘Got this riff, let’s see where it can go’ and he’ll start playing it, I’ll play along, he’ll have suggestions as to what to do and we’ll just be bouncing suggestions off each other all day until we come up with something that we’re all reasonably happy with, we’re happy to be playing, and that’s really how it works. But again, more recently it’s gone back to playing a riff and working around it and then bouncing suggestions off, just coming together as band without any preconceived ideas or riffs and playing what feels right at that moment. [So . . .]

AM [yeah] (inaudible) OK, so, say you go through that, say you have a jam one day and you go, ‘Oh, that’s good,’ and you have the tape: How do you remember, and then as you get to know the song, how do you remember [the part?]

BH [Well. That’s where] the taping comes in, that’s been the most useful thing from day one, since we were playing, that’s helped us. Because some of those early recordings (yeah) we were – at times we were playing and we were all quite wasted ((laughs)) and remembering what we played was not an option, unless we’d actually recorded it …

AM Yeah … BH And Simon would come up with the tape a couple of weeks after and goes, ((excitedly))

‘You’ve got to hear this, you know, this is unbelievable, what’d we do? Y’know, how did we do that?’ and we’d listen back to the tape and we’d be in the practice room listening to the tape trying to work out how to play

AM [Yep – what you played] BH [what we’d recorded.] And a lot of times it was actually impossible to play what we’d


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recorded, but we’d do an approximation of what we did before and work with that and try and improve that. So, sometimes some of the things we recorded (are) lost … but to some extent we try to scrape back as much as we could from that. And again, it’s the same now but as we’ve all got better musically we could - we’ve got a better ear to hear what we’ve actually recorded (in) the practice and again, recording, as opposed to just an old tape recorded we’ve now got four tracks and things that we can record things a little bit better, so we can – you know, you could hear what you were doing better. And again, I think you have a better feel for it as well.

21.25 AM So that raises the question for me, when you’re actually playing, and it gets quite noisy ‘cause you use distortion pedals on the bass, and there’s two guitars going and so on, in all that sound are you, when you’re listening to the sound as you’re playing, are you aware, ‘OK, that part of the sound is mine, this belongs to me, that’s what I’m playing, and that’s what the (others)’ – you can? [You can sort it out?]

21.48 BH [You can,} I think again, it helps with repetition. Playing a riff or song, or whatever (over) – the more times you play it, the more you get a feel for what you’re doing at what time and (where) and what everyone else is doing. And again, the recording process as well, even as we’ve been recording, you know, our four-tracks, separately from each other, our sort of demo recording, helps you because you can hear the other parts of the band, the guitars and just the drums witho0ut your part on top of it and you can hear what other people are playing (inaudible) so I remember Simon saying, ‘Wow, you’re doing stuff on the bass that I didn’t even realise,’ when he’s been laying his guitar parts, ‘cause we do it drums, bass, guitar, that’s the way we’re recording, and then Simon will go, ‘Wow, I didn’t know you were doing that bit,’ and he’ll – you know, you just get a better idea for it (when you) [do it that way, so …]

AM [Yeah…] – good! (8 second pause) OK, do you – like, Simon does most of the singing, doesn’t he?

BH Yeah AM Do you always know what he’s singing, like, the words of what he’s singing. BH No. ((both laugh)) Even now I don’t know all the words to [all the songs ] AM [(I thought you’d say that ..)] 23.04 BH He doesn’t write them down, and they can change as well, that’s was always the thing he

would (sort of like), ‘Oh I’ve changed this bit of vocals,’ (and I’d) “Oh, right,’. I know with a couple of the songs we listen to his vocal line as almost like a cue, for when we’re going to come in and when the change is coming, sometimes it’s difficult if there’s, you know, a lot of – we do do a lot of things in numbers, so we do five bars of this and then it’s six bars of that and then there’s a build and a change and then another four bars of that. I there’s something that’s sort of twelve bars or something like that we kind of get a bit confused and even though we should be trying to simplify it and sort it out, rather than do that, rather than waste time with that, we just leave Simon to sing his part and we’ll remember when he’s got a certain vocal line that we can hear, [‘That’s the time to come in.’ Yeah, yeah, that’s it.]

24.08 AM [Yeah. It’s the signal for the change.] That reminds me what I was wanting to ask before. Not just for the structure and the changes but (in fact for the thing) the actual riff you play, once you’ve learnt the song, how do you remember …

BH How do you remember the actual riff?


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AM Yeah, how do you remember what to play? BH A lot of the time, that’s with repetition as well, (just) playing it again and again.

Sometimes I’ll write down – I mean, what I always used to do was write down just a list of numbers which would just be the bars of each one. Usually I’d be able to remember my riffs [for each song]

AM {So you would have], you know four, you’d play that riff for four bars then eight, [then] BH Yes, we’d start with like Intro, and then 4, 8, Build, 6, and then a change, then Bridge,

then – it’s just sort of a random, quite a random non-musical structure to try and remember the songs. Usually that doesn’t help that much but when we were – you know, in the early days that was quite useful for me and I know I used it in my other band that I was in as well to try and remember the song structure, but in terms of the riffs, generally I can remember pretty much all of – you know all the riffs of the songs. But sometimes Simon will have to kind of - will give me a trigger and say, ‘Oh yes, you were doing that,’ and again [a lot of that comes from (rapport) …]

AM [(And do what), what would he, what would he, how does that (get described), would he play it,. Or does he …

BH Yeah, he’ll play it – (well) we’ll jam it through until we all say, ‘Yeah, that was the one,’ or ‘That was right, ok I remember now, I can remember how to do that,’ and that’s happened with a few songs where it’s like, ‘Oh no, we’ve forgotten that bit, oh no, we can’t forget that bit,’ and we keep (working) it out I’ll – you know, Simon or Tim will play his part and we just try and work it out from there what exactly it was that – usually only with bridge parts, or slight changes towards an end of song, usually the main riff is pretty much – you know, it’s in there.

AM So, when you do remember, when you’ve got that in your memory, it’s basically repetition, so it sounds like a combination of the sound and the physical …

BH Yeah. ((Nods)) I think so, yeah. Again, it’s probably more the sound, than anything else cause once you’ve got that sound in your head, you can pretty much remember how to play it, because that’s almost like second nature, you’re playing the actual riff, to create the sound, so the sound …

AM (?) BH Well again, all the improvised jams that we’ve had is more about the sound rather than

actually the physical pressing of the fingers on the fret board, and so I think that’s how it works.

27.09 AM OK. So … BH Yeah - but again, a lot of it is aided by recording sessions, recording our practices,

listening back to our practices and like, ‘That was a good take, that was – that’s how the song should be,’ maybe a tweak here or there, but that’s how to play it, and again, when we’re not together as a band I would from time to time listen to a practice tape or some of the recordings that we’ve had and just play along just to try and get that – again, it’s about physical memory as well, if you’re just playing it you know, your hand (?) – you just remember, it just becomes a sort of second nature of that’s how the song is, that’s where the fingers go, you know …

AM So, you don’t actually focus a lot of attention on what you’re doing physically? BH I have (to), I do, yes, I do and I do have to but I (?) …


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AM Yeah go on, (?) BH Not being musically trained or anything it’s just like I –some of the songs are quite

difficult for me to play physically. Some of the things, a couple of the songs that we recorded, ((referring to a recent recording session AM had with birdbath)) the slower one, is physically hurting my fingers, and I’m like – you know, and I’m almost sort of bent double trying to be able to play this as well as I can because, you know, I’m not like an accomplished bass player or anything so I’m struggling to kind of keep up and play what I want to play, want to be able to play. It’s almost like I want to be better than I am and I’m trying to keep up with myself, I’m trying to push myself as well, so it’s like um – yeah, it’s quite – it is very physical but I’m not conscious, or particularly conscious of that, I’m conscious of trying to get the sound that I want so as – you know, I’m concentrating on what I’m doing physically but the ear is listening to make sure I don’t get any bum notes or don’t mess it up in any major way.

AM Good . . . good. (4 second pause) Aahhh …That’s nearly all I’ve got to ask exactly … I just ask everybody how the band got it’s name. [(How it did you get ) birdbath?]

BH [((laughs))] Yeah, that was ah – well it was Tim and Simon I think, they were jamming together – I mean I remember I’ve got this really early recording – ((replies to a query from someone else in the room)) just for about two seconds -

AM We’ve nearly finished, sorry - BH Sorry about that. Um, yeah, and so Tim and Simon got together and came up with it, I

still have no idea where it came from, but it just – it sat with us because it doesn’t really mean anything, it’s an object that’s almost – it has a function, you’ve got – birds need to get water, and you know you’ve kind of constructed this thing to give birds water ((laughs))

AM I’ll just move this camera - BH Yeah, I think so, we’re getting in the way - AM We’re nearly sort of done, but … BH Yeah, again it’s a kind of West Country thing as well because, you say West Country

with a kind of (RP) accent it doesn’t sound as funny (as if) you say ((in a broad, old man’s West Country accent) burrrdbaath. It’s a West Country (R), it’s a burrrdbaath. It’s meaningless …

AM ((laughing) Alright- OK - BH ((laughs)) That sort of amused us as well, so – again, it’s to try and be something quite

meaningless, quite sort of semi-surreal really, which is again, to do with us – (it) just seemed to fit with us going into a room and just jamming things out at random, it’s a random name, to have …

AM Alright, so - so should I then think that that meaninglessness is how you think about music essentially, at bottom?

BH ((thoughtful)) Ah, nooo… but – yes and no – yes and no – it's a Zen, it’s a Zen thing I think. It’s something, always through us (as) practising and improvising you kind of get a feeling that – you know you’re almost on another level you’re almost – you’re not conscious of what you’re doing you get to that stage where you’re kind of almost like a higher enlightenment kind of thing. It’s almost that sort of feeling that you get, that you’re not quite sure what you’re doing and you’re pushed beyond another level. But, at


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the same time, we’re still almost consciously trying to deconstruct the kind of horrible chart music song structures that we – that just bore us to tears, or even standard rock music and heavy metal or anything (it) all just seems a bit staid and overproduced and structured for an audience rather than for the musicians – that was always the thing, it was a band that was for ourselves, predominantly, and if other people kind of wanted to hear what we’re doing then that’s up to them, that’s fair enough. And again that’s – it kind of holds us back I think as band to some extent I think because we don’t actively promote ourselves we’re not actively into the whole, you know, phoning – constantly phoning people up trying to get gigs and constantly trying to do it as a business, ‘cause it’s – essentially it’s a hobby, it’s something that we enjoy doing, and that’s what’s important to us and we wouldn’t have carried on for twelve years if it wasn’t something we enjoyed.

AM So, when you talk about deconstructing the structure of the songs … BH Yeah… AM .. (is that like) structure of chart songs or standard rock songs. BH I think it’s a bit of both, to some extent, but then – we’re not - it’s not something we’re

consciously doing or aware that we’re doing, it just – ‘That sounds like a birdbath song, that sounds like a birdbath idea, let’s do that, let’s change that song at that time and try and make it slightly different,’ – just to try and be slightly idiosyncratic with the self, and try and make yourselves slightly different from a lot of bands that are out there really. (But) at the same time, we can – I know that Simon likes a lot of, you know, some bands that might be considered more mainstream, and he can appreciate that, and the use of melody, in a lot of his guitar playing sort of comes from that, and I think that’s, again it’s a nice dynamic within the band and we’re almost trying to sort of …subvert each other, and what each other’s playing.

AM Yeah, there’s a fruitful kind of tension – [I saw this. Simon, although he overlaps some of your tastes, he’s got a more commercial side to his tastes than the other lads.]

BH [Yeah …yeah…yeah. You, with me] I mean I listen to all sorts of Merzbow and Sun Ra some sort of like kind of avant garde jazz, and Faust and lots of sort of noise bands and hardcore bands that are just more experimenting with the noise side of things, but at the same time I like melody as well

AM OK. (What are a few of the )names of bands? BH Well, at the moment I’m listening to a lot of Pinback, who is a guy called Rob Crowe

who is just one of the most prolific artists in the States at the moment, he’s got more bands than I can list, Heavy Vegetable is one of his first bands, which is a kind of indie – sort of experimental indie band … [(?)]

AM [Yeah, Simon and Time played me some of that, yeah -] BH [I’ve been] trying to get Simon and Tim to listen to some of that because there’s a lot –

you know, a lot very sort of angular and quite (deconstructed), again, deconstructed songs, quite sort of (?) the song is subverting itself from within but again the guy has got a lot of melody, a lot of harmonies in his vocals and the vocals that he does with other people in his bands [are quite interesting, so …]

AM [Yeah, I noticed that, yeah.] BH There is definitely him. Trumans Water are always a big influence on me, and on the rest

of the band as well in terms of their just - unbelievable experimental with their songs. There was nothing that was too much for them to do, they’re building up with one riff


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then they completely change, and the whole song would just completely change right in the middle without you expecting it, with – you know, totally atonal riffs which are just not – just almost against each other, you know, battling against each other, the guitars and the drums, and then it all come together again at the end and they just do all these quite art-based stuff which to some extent comes out of the early Sonic Youth and again the New York No Wave scene in the early 80s, it’s all sort of stemmed out from there into, you know, this avant garde rock trying to subvert rock and bring in influences [from other areas.]

AM [I think you mentioned Lydia Lunch before.] BH Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know Teenage Jesus and the Jerks,, and DNA, and Mars and

the Contortions, and Glenn Branca of course is a bit of a legend in that area as being somebody who studied music classically, and tried then - took that avant gardist but classically-trained sensibilities into the punk scene and just trying to merge the two together and try and bring something new from the punk scene in the early 80s. And lot’s of bands from Chicago, the Touch’n’Go label bands and the Skingraft label bands. You know Skingraft were a -came out (of) a guy who was making comics and he (listened) – he liked these quite noisy kind of AC/DC sort of bands to start with and then his label was trying to be almost as avant garde as possible, and (you) have the guy – Jim O’Rourke? Have you heard [of Jim O’Rourke?]

AM Yeah – yeah. BH .. and he was – you know he sort of came out of his – I think he did a PhD or something

in music composition and came out – and was very active within that scene, (and sort of) producing bands like Melt Banana and doing his own thing with Brise-Glace which was literally trying to sort of deconstruct and cut up rock songs of that kind. [You know he’s …]

AM What was the name of that band? BH Brise-Glace AM Brise-Glace. ((inaudible)) BH Jim O’Rourke’s actually on – credited on the record not only as producer, you know,

sort of engineer of the record but he also plays guitar and razor blades, which basically, he’s the one who just cuts the tape, splices it together and mixes it, [it’s quite a bizarre record, really.]

AM [OK.] It’s a bit like Burroughs then. [OK.] BH [Yeah, very much like Burroughs,] very much, that’s the sort of thing that was

interesting me at the time. And there’s bands – bands that bring in almost a prog rock sensibility back into the scene, and stripping it down, there’s a Japanese band called Ruins, which is - I can’t remember the drummer’s name, but it’s just him and bass. And I like – you know, being a bass player I like things stripped down to their basics of bass and drums. And they do a lot of very progressive, almost jazz compositions that are very avant garde, and stuff that I wouldn’t – I couldn’t even think about being able to play but these guys are out there, they’re doing it, (I just get a kind of) mind-blowing. Even guys – the Lightning Bolt pair as well, they’re doing (things) very much along those lines just trying to strip things down to the basics but then exploding from there, just doing as much with their individual instruments as they possibly can within the space of a song.

AM Yeah …yeah. BH Yeah … and obviously we’re still very much interested in – birdbath particularly with


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the Shellac dynamic of bass, drums, guitar playing off each other and stripping things down, but also you’ve got the likes of Slint who are playing together again (as well as) …

AM Are they? BH Legendary - Yeah, I\m going to see them in May, at – they’re playing at All Tomorrow’s

Parties, so I’m going to see that, and they … AM Lucky you. ((laughs)) BH Yeah, I can’t wait for that, (actually) Shellac and Slint are both playing that weekend, so

I’m quite pleased. But it’s, you know they introduced a another dynamic to the punk scene, not being afraid to play things slowly, not being afraid to introduce strange, interlinked melody, play things quietly, and doing things (up) and …

AM They would have been pretty seminal – Slint, you’re talking about – they would have been pretty seminal in the post-rock kind of …

BH Oh, well yeah, absolutely – but there were a lot of other bands doing similar things and that have come along since then, doing a post rock [thing] …

AM [Yeh –since] BH Yeah, obviously. Well - but again, at the time, there were bands touching upon that area,

but not quite going as far as the Spiderland record, really. I mean, the first Slint record Tweeze is avant garde, it’s a strange album there were elements in that record which connect with the hardcore scene, the early post-punk of the late 90s you know, with the Pixies, and bands like the Digits and when the Jesus Lizard started as well (and) Scratch Acid (are )going back. And again, a lot of that was –is sort of inspired by the Minutemen as well which is – and Sonic Youth and their kind of twisted dynamics of the Minutemen just not being afraid to do (anything) – throwing a country and western song in the middle of their record ((chuckles)) or – whatever, but their just not afraid to do that, and Sonic Youth just not afraid to play noise for fifteen minutes or whatever. You know, Bad Moon Rising is a classic record of that in that there’s one sort of notable rock-punk song on that album which is the one with Lydia Lunch, Death Valley 69, but the rest of that album is so disparate and so deconstructed it’s almost just a mess of random noises and sort of cutups (of) songs and riffs and ideas. But –yeah – sort of Slint kind of took that, experimented with it on their first record and then with Spiderland almost turned it into a form of classical music (and) tried to create something that’s a thing of art, just working on just six songs (and) just working on them solidly, and … just concentrating on that and making those songs through constant practice and constantly looking at it and what can be put here and there until they get these … almost perfect little songs together from it, so …yeah …

AM OK, there’s an interesting thing there, do you see, or what difference do you see between live performance and a recording.

BH Live - the difference between live recording and …[live performance and a recording.] AM [Live performance and a recording.] BH Well ((chuckles)) there’s a very big difference, definitely. You’ve still got a certain

amount of pressure there behind each one but when – when you’re recording something you’re trying to get everything to sound – you’re trying to play everything as perfect as you can play it. Whereas when you play live you’re just trying to play everything either as loud or as um – as brash as you can, try and make that room filled with your sound. And the other thing with live performance is, you’ve – you know you can’t rely on the


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sound man, it’s always a problem, it’s always a problem when you’re playing live because you don’t know – from the experience that we’ve had – you don’t know what you’re going to be hearing on the monitor and you don’t know what sort of sound – you may be able to hear you may be able to hear what you’re playing, you may not be able to hear the rest of the band.

AM You don’t know what the audience is going to be getting either, really. BH No, you don’t. I mean, the only time we’ve had a really sort of positive experience of

that is when we played the Bristol Academy when there (was,) two separate sound men. There was a sound guy who was working on getting a good sound for the crowd and there was also a sound guy on the stage giving us a good monitor mix the whole time, so we could hear what each other were playing, perfectly.

AM That would have been a big system, though, obviously. [(A few) channels of fold back and everything.)]

BH [Oh, well, exactly. But at the sort of small gigs, you’ve just kind of got to] – seat of the pants, hope for the best and play … and just make sure you maintain a communication between each other, sort of visually, it’s like, ‘Right, OK, we’re changing here, and listen out for Simon’s vocal cues as well, and just, you know, hope for the best, but …

AM And as a – as a, like an audience member, or you know if you’re listening to someone else’s record or you’re hearing a band live, what differences are there for you in the way that you [experience it].

BH [Well, it] - it depends what you mean, I mean, am I … AM So Slint, right? Because we were talking about Slint and how they worked on perfecting

those songs and that album, Spiderland, and now you’re going to hear them live in May …

BH Yeah. What – I mean I saw them last year AM Did you? In England? [Where?} BH [Yeah,] they played at -at ATP, it was their reunion gig, we thought it was going to be

the one-off and I think Tim and Simon, we all sort of came as a special thing to ATP to see Slint, just like a ‘big thing’ and, slightly unfortunately, there was so many other people there at the same time we didn’t really see them very close up but the mix was good, ‘cause the sound people that they get at ATP are very good, really good sound and a good idea of all the songs, (so) seeing them play was a good experience. But then I managed to see them at the Forum, because they played a gig after ATP as well and I was - managed to get right to the front for that and basically I was focused on what they were doing and how they were doing it. And obviously there is a slightly different line up to the people who played on the records, there’s three core members of Slint, (there’s) the singer, who now doesn’t play any guitar at all but he used to, there’s the drummer, and the lead guitarist. (But) they’ve got two other members, who are additions to their sort of touring Slint band that they’re with now, and it’s quite interesting ‘cause they seem like a band that again, had not been playing together, because again they hadn’t played together for fifteen years or whatever, so it – they’d obviously been practicing those songs, but they hadn’t (really) – it didn’t sort of feel like they’d gone into a room and kind of – just played anything they were so sort of -obviously focused on getting these songs right from their two records and being able to present the songs that they – that had been recorded, in a live setting. Now – it was still fantastic, it was still really great, but there wasn’t that kind of almost psychic connection between the band


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members, it wasn’t quite there, it was almost there but not quite. So I’m interested to see what they’re like this (year) and now they’ve been sort of l jamming and playing together for a while, so um – back as a band, because it must be so difficult sort of – not playing or being together as a band for that amount of time and getting back together and doing it. Again, as birdbath, we’ve had two to three years apart and then we started - like I said, me and Tim started jamming together and then we got together as a three-piece and then just slowly picked up from there, but – Slint, it’s a bit different, you know it’s quite intriguing to see how it’s done and how it works. But that’s what you’re looking for as – again, the more bands I see, the more that I play in a band, the more I’m always looking for from a live performance, you know, I’m looking for that kind of semi-psychic ((chuckles)) connection between the band members, where they know what’s coming next – they can all stop, look at each other, come into the (thing) – know when it’s going to come in, when the song’s there, they’re, you know, sort of working on a higher level, almost. And again, that’s something that’s difficult to get across in your recordings, which is why, I think, you know, live recording is a good thing, is a better thing to do than to try and do it – record each instrument separately, ‘cause you’re – you’re losing that sense of um …aahh.. what (do) you call it … you know, just … I can’t think of the right word, but you know, that …ah, you know that push, that sort of that impulse, that’s there when you’re just listening to somebody play and you can’t see what they’re playing and you don’t have that connection with another human being, you’re just sort of playing with a disembodied sound. It’s just not the same.

AM Right BH Yeah, so …that was the thing, the other night, seeing Cove play, and the other band,

(Orion Arm) I mean – one of the songs that Cove played was about, I don’t know, fifteen minute song and they’re just – the guitarist and the bass player (was) playing the same riff over and [over again …]

AM [Exactly! Exactly!] BH [… and the drummer,] he’s just – he’s on another level, he’s just – he’s –every time the

riff goes ‘round he’s playing a slightly different beat and the beat is building up and it’s almost hypnotic, and they’re just like – bouncing off each other. You could say the guitarist and bass player, OK, could maybe do a bit more – but it didn’t matter, ‘cause it was about the drummer, it was about the drummer knowing what’s happening and just feeling for his – it was like his song, he had the feel for it, he was doing his thing, and that was really good. (Yeah, you know,) that’s what I’m looking for.

AM So, here’s an interesting question, because I’ve actually asked Mark this question. In Cove, who do you think leads the beat, who’s, you know, slightly ahead of the beat, out of the guitars …

BH I’d say the drums, I mean the drums (are) really, I mean the guy who plays guitar is there some of the time, and does lead it sometimes, but generally it’s the drums that are the driving force of that band, and that’s, you know, that’s a good thing, I mean that’s the same with a lot of the bands that I like, you know, Shellac are like that, (they’re) drum-led, uh …oh(hhh) -

AM What about birdbath, how do you think it is in birdbath? BH Um, I’m not quite sure, actually, I don’t quite know what - I don’t think there’s any one

particular member or part of the band that leads it really,… AM I’m not talking about being the sort of – the leader of the band, but about being that little


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bit ahead of the beat? As such? Which I think I agree with what you said about Cove, I think () a lot of the time the drums are controlling the beat ….

BH Yes. AM … and occasionally you know, the guitarist negotiates with the drums a little bit. BH From, from - well it’s usually from the main riff to the bridge, or something like that, the

guitar will lead it in () and lead the changes, whereas … I don’t know with birdbath () You know, it could be any one of us really that’s gonna kind of bring it in (), it just depends how we feel when we’re doing the songs, like who’s gonna do it. I mean, we’re working on a new song, and (we’re) saying, ‘Well, OK, Simon you – everything else cuts out when you play the riff through and then we come in and …’ and then they’re trying to subvert and going, ‘Yeah, well OK we’ll play that half the length of time and I’ll just come in for this,’ ((raises hands)) it all gets quite confusing, but ((chuckles)) it’s all recorded, sooo, we should be able to work on it.

AM We’d better stop I guess, you’d better get to the airport. BH Yeah – that’s true. AM Yeah? Thanks for that, that was really interesting. BH Cool END OF TAPE


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Participants Luke Tagney (LT)

Andrew McGuiness (AM) Location Kentish Town Date 11 May 2007 Source DV videotape Notes Recorded backstage at a gig, quite noisy, and audio input overloading Transcribed by Andrew McGuiness Date 18 August 2007 Acknowledgements Fieldwork funded by Open University

Time Actor Transcript 0.07 AM So, ah, 11th of May, 2007. We’re in Kentish Town, and you’re Luke - 0.13 LT I am. 0.14 AM - from birdbath, and you’re the drummer. 0.15 LT [(That’s right.)] 0.16 Am [OK. Good.] So, just to start off, can you give me a brief rundown of how you got into

music. 00.24 LT How I got into music. Well – it all started from when I was about ten, I – um, my brother

and sister had – were having piano lessons and guitar – (piano) - piano lessons and cello lessons, and I wanted to learn something and (there was) – my Dad’s old guitar was kicking around the place so I decided to pick that up and have a go, and it was out of tune and I didn’t know how to tune it and I twanged away on it (and Mum thought), ‘Oh well, he seems quite interested in that,’ so (he) looked around and it turned out my primary school teacher could play guitar and he’d been thinking about starting a guitar club and as soon as it became obvious that there were enough people interested he started (it) up and (basically) just taught us (the) very basics, a few (?) chords and that got me started and from there I taught myself basically, and then I played in bands up until I was about 18, playing guitar and singing, and then when I hit 18 I bought a drum kit, and I’d already been playing drums a bit here and there, on friends’ kits and stuff, and after I got the kit I got really into that and it went from there basically.

01.38 AM Right. Why did you get into drums? 0.39 LT Why did I get into it? Mainly because, um, probably actually, the – I was playing guitar

and singing in a punk band, and our drummer was just unbelievable, he was just so good, and he just really inspired me , I was just like, ‘I want to be able to do that,’ …

01.59 AM Yeah - 02.00 LT .. and he was just unbelievable. He still to this day probably the best drummer I’ve ever

seen play live. 02.06 AM Right - 02.06 LT He’s just (unbelievable) – Unfortunately he got RSI in his wrists, so he had to stop

playing, which is - 02.09 AM Right - 02.09 LT Yeah, he had really bad technique, but he was just actually brilliant. That’s what really

got me interested in it. 02.17 AM Alright. OK – so now, onto – talking specifically about birdbath. UM – the process for


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writing songs - 02.30 LT Yeah - 02.30 AM How does that happen. 02.31 LT It (basically) – well, a lot of the time it comes out of … just a jam that we’ve had at

practice, you know, that we’ll just, you know – somebody’ll come up with a basic riff and I’ll stick a beat to it, and the other – the rest of the band will sit there and go, ‘Oughrrr,’ and figure out something that works …

02.51 AM Yeah - 02.51 LT … and then we’ll just play it a few times and stop and go, ‘Yeah, that was cool, I liked

that bit, I didn’t like that bit,’ … 02.55 AM Yeah - 02.55 LT … and then y’know, you keep doing it, and gradually it will evolve into a song. (It’s)

either that, or somebody’ll come to a practice and say, ‘Look, I’ve got this riff I really like, and we can go into this riff from there,’ and they come to practice with a vague idea of what they want to do [with the song, …]

03.13 AM [Sure.] OK. 03.13 LT … and we – and it develops from there. A lot of the time the song ends up completely

different to how it started … 03.18 AM Yeah - 03.18 LT … (once we’ve all), y’know got together and played through, but yeah, that’s generally

how it starts, yeah. 03.22 AM Yeah. Alright. And so – as you work the song out, as you learn the song - 03.29 LT Yeah - 03.29 AM … do you – does what you do settle into something that’s quite clean and always stays

the same, the fills and everything, always the same? 03.40 LT ((nods)) Mmmmm, for me, yeah, generally It depends on the song a lot as well, because

some of our songs have slightly odd timing in them and I – if it is an odd time signature (on top of it) changes quite a lot, then what I play will then generally stay exactly the same, ‘cause I’ll have to figure out what I’m doing …

04.02 AM Yeah, [right, OK - ] 04.02 LT [.. so I can stay] in time basically, ‘cause I’m – you know, I’m a classic rock drummer, I

play in 4/4 - 04.06 AM Yeah - 04.06 LT … yeah, and so – again, (out of) 4/4 was a bit of a challenge for me when I started

playing with the band. And then, the more you do it, obviously the more you get used to it. But – yeah, so, generally they will stay the same if it’s timing-wise, complicated, but um – yeah (I mean) …

04.23 AM Otherwise you improvise to some extent? [Alright.] 04.25 LT [Yeah, you know, like -] also (if) we’ve got like a song called How to dot dot dot dot … 04.30 AM Yeah - 04.30 LT … I mean that’s a very – it’s 4/4 and it’s very straight on the drums, and that, I would

have loads of scope to improvise within that song but I don’t because it’s not really needed, what that song needs is just the straight drums, it needs that a-dush-kuh-dush-kuh ((imitating hi-hat pattern)) …

04.47 AM Sure, yeah -


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04.48 LT … that’s what it needs. So (yeah), you know, so a lot of the time it does depend on the song as well. Generally I do stick to pretty much the same thing – a couple of the rolls may vary a touch, but generally I do stick to the same thing, yeah.

05.03 AM Alright. OK, so – when You’re playing just a downbeat and a backbeat, um … do you have a sense of where you’re placing the backbeat? You know, if it’s a little bit early, a little bit … early on the beat, or late on the beat, or …you know, does that - is that something you think about?

05.19 LT No – not really, I mean -= I try and keep it as … as ((moves right hand up and down in ‘karate chop’ motion)) solid as I can, you know, (like) – just ‘cause – excuse me, I’m sorry ((gets out mobile phone)). Sorry, do you mind if I get this very quickly? ((Carries on a short conversation on phone)) Sorry man, it was a friend I was trying to give directions to earlier.

05.47 AM Yeah, it’s OK. 05.49 LT Yeah, I generally try to keep it as … as straight ((karate chop motion)) and as solid as I

can you know. And … occasionally I’ll do like a flam or something, where you hit the main beat and you follow up with one ((mimes playing drums with big gestures)) …

06.03 AM Yeah, I know what a flam is … 06.04 LT Yeah, but you know, I generally do just try to keep it as solid as I can, yeah. 06.07 Am Alight. OK, so – and then in the ones where you do improvise things a little bit at least,

what I’m really interest in is, how far ahead you plan - 0618 LT OK, how far ahead do I think [about what I’m doing.] 06.20 AM [Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ] 06.24 LT Hardly at all really, probably, it’s pretty much instantaneous, it’s a case of, I’m playing

this, and then the fill’s now, so I do it ((mimes crossing to a fill) and it’s – yeah, if I am improvising, it’s always improvisations upon a theme so I know roughly what I’m going to do and then as I do it, I may go, ‘Oh, that’s very nice, I’ll go from there to there.’ You know, so …

06.42 AM Yeah. OK, yeah – alright, alright – Alright, and then in a more general sense when you’re playing a song -

06.51 LT Yeah - 06.51 AM … how far ahead do you think? 06.52 LT ((thinks for a couple of seconds)) Again it depends on the song, and how and how

complicated it is, but I’ll generally –I’ll be aware of what’s coming up next, and that’s pretty much as far ahead as I think, I like ((touches L hand to side of head) ‘The next bit is this,’ and I know that’s what’s coming up next, I know when it’s coming up and then when we hit that bit, I’ll be thinking about, ‘OK, the next bit is this,’ ((decisive up-and-down motion with L hand)) and then, so, (like) just one section in advance as it were, so when we’re in the chorus I’ll be thinking about – oh, I won’t be thinking constantly but I will have thought ((R hand to side of head and away)) ‘The next bit is this’, [and I’m …]

07.23 AM [OK, say (?)] – in the – in between, (you are like -) so you’ve got the next section planned -

07.28 LT Yeah - 07.28 AM … and you’re playing for, like, 16 bars or however long it is, and ah (is it-) do you think

ahead there at all? Do you … 07.40 LT Sorry, what d'you mean – like …


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07.44 AM Do you …like, when you’re in the middle of a beat (?), what are you thinking? 07.49 LT ((Shakes head and smiles)) Very little ((chuckles)) very little, I mean, it’s …it’s kind of

instinctive, almost, it’s, you know, I’ve always drummed – I’ve always drummed (like that) instinctively, and I think when I first started I mean like that was my problem. You know, I wasn’t – I’d be a bit random, you know, because I’d be playing so instinctively, that I’d be just going from one thing to another to another so quickly that it really had no structure to it. So – and I had to work on that, had to concentrate on, you know, ‘OK, I’m gonna play this bit enough times for it to work’ before I go ‘Right, I wanna do something different rah rah’ [yeah, and so…]

08.25 AM Yeah, OK. Yeah? 08.28 LT … but yeah, ((nodding)) it is pretty much instinctive, it’s like, on the moment, pretty

much really. 08.33 AM Yeah. OK. 08.37 LT So ((chuckling)) I don’t have a great deal of thought going through my head when I play

really. 08.39 AM Well, alright, [that’s good!] 08.39 LT ((smiling)) (Very) therapeutic really. ((chuckles)) 08.41 AM Alright, so um – and, like, you do – you do different kinds of beats for different songs,

[obviously] … 08.46 LT [Yeah] 08.46 AM … How do you remember. 08.51 LT How do I remember what I’m playing? 08.52 AM Yeah. Comes a song, someone calls a song or plays a riff, then … 08.56 LT [Um…] Yeah. ((thinks for a couple of seconds)) I’ll generally ….I’ll remember a bit of a

riff, that’s generally how it works, when I’m trying to think of ((scrunches up eyes, looks up and R)) ‘OK, (it starts on, what about )that song’, I’ll try and think of like, the main, lead riff that starts it, and that’ll just ((shakes head)) click into my head (I’ll know) ((R hand moves away from face)) that’s the riff, so (I’m going) bit-da-bum-bitaditbum ((imitates drum fill)). (I’ll know) just – the rhythm will come into my head, you know ((claps hands and moves head in syncopated rhythm)) that’s the main rhythm so (I’m like, yeah) I got it now, d’you know what I mean, to…

09.24 AM [OK] Alright, alright. So, as a drummer – ‘cause like, the movements you make, you know it’s quite a physical thing …

09.30 LT Yeah - yeah 09.30 AM … play drums. Do (you) – is movement important to you? Is the physicality of it

(important)? 09.38 Lt Yeah. I mean, yeh, I really enjoy that. ((smiling, nodding)) I really enjoy – that’s why,

when I first (started drumming ) I used to play a lot of drum and bass and really fast stuff ((looks over shoulder and smiles, as Tim places hand on his shoulder and waves at the camera)) because I enjoyed the fact that they were really blitzing it ((mimes hitting drums with whole body force)) (…) you’re moving about ((moves hand and upper body in circular motion)) at the end of it I was sweating, I really really did enjoy that, but, the more I played the more I realised that (that..) the smallest amount of movement necessary is the best, because you’re… you’re conserving energy. You’re going to be able to play longer, your technique is better, (yeah) and so, as I – as I improve on the drums, that’s what I’m now trying to get to, so instead of going ‘Wooooah’ ((moves


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arms and in circular motion)) around the kit, a smoother, lesser movement ((mimes holding arms down and focusing on drum kit)) does the same thing ((nodding)) … [so yeah].

10.23 AM Right. OK. So – we’re nearly done. Just a few questions about things like meaning. 10.30 LT OK 10.30 AM The project is (part of) a bigger project that I’m involved in that’s about meaning in

music, so – ah, um – do you – do you know what Simon’s singing? 10.43 LT A lot of the time I don’t, [no] 10.44 AM [No] 10.44 LT (and I mean) I still every now and then I’ll go, ‘Whoo, whoo, what is(it you’re) saying

there?’ and he’ll tell me, (I’m) like ((shaking head sideways with bemused expression)) “Alright then ((shrugging shoulders)) …

10.54 AM [Fair enough] 10.54 LT … fair enough, (he was just alright ok) fair enough.’ (You know) but, I don’t really put

much though into it, … 10.57 AM No, no. Ok. 10.57 LT … into what he’s saying at all, it’s – for me it’s more about, um, you know, the music,

not necessarily the words, [and …] 11.04 AM OK, yeah. 11.04 LT … and it’s more like the melody, (and it’s the) rhythms, (more that( what’s actually

getting said. 11.12 AM And then , do you have a sense of the music as meaning something, or expressing

something, or communicating something … 11.16 LT Yeah, yeah. Some of our songs, yeah definitely, like um, I’m not – I’m really bad on the

names of our songs as well, I don’t know our songs necessarily by what they’re called, but um, I think it’s Diet Kruger, (that’s) one of our songs. Towards the end it gets – it sounds to me really frustrated and you know, it wants to, ((rocking upper body back and forth in a short, stiff motion)) it just wants to get somewhere and you know, I just can’t quite, d’you know what I mean, and I …

11.43 AM Yeah yeah …yeah, yeah 11.43 LT … (yeah and) so certain songs do have certain connections with feelings, more maybe

((nodding)). 11.49 AM Right, yeah, OK, yeah. Alright, cool. So, we should probably finish, but can you just

give me a quick run down of some of your influences, sort of stuff [you listen to - ] 11.56 LT [Some of my influences.] ((nodding)) Um – well, nowadays I really tend to – if I’m at

home – I generally tend to listen to more, sort of chilled out acoustic things, you know, um … but I – yeah I grew up listening to punk ((nodding)) [yeah, like]…

12.10 AM Yeah 12.10 LT ((nodding))..and I still really like [punk.] 12.11 AM [So when ] you say punk, what are talking about? 12.14 LT I’m talking about bands like Propagandhi, Lagwagon, NoFX, aahh – yeah those kind of

– new-age, uh, new-age American punk bands. 12.23 AM Yeah. Yeah OK. 12.23 LT And I – I got really into ska as well, (sort of) I love reggae as well, you know, all of that

kind of thing. Went through a massive Police phase -


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12.35 Am Oh right - 12.35 LT .. yeah, and I mean, the more I hang (around) – hand out with Tim and the rest of the

band, the more they introduce me to more music that I’ve never really listened to before, and recently I’ve been really enjoying Cheer Accident, I don’t know if you know them it’s a band that Ben, our bass player, got me really into, he gave me a Cheer Accident CD for my birthday and it’s just ((shaking head)) and it’s just, yeah …

12.54 AM Is this – is this somebody from America? Is this a - 12.58 LT Not sure, to be honest it might be, not sure, yeah … 12.59 AM There’s this guy that they’ve all been talking about a real lot, really prolific, has a lot of

different bands and does kind of - 13.06 LT Yeah ((nodding)) possibly, (I mean) I don’t really know a lot about the band themselves,

I just got this one CD that I’ve been listening to a lot, and (…) really enjoying it. Yeah, ((shrugging one shoulder)) thinking about buying some more, you know, (just cause it’s ) good music, I enjoy it a lot. But also my brother’s band, Reynolds, they did influence me quite a bit as well, ‘cause um – I mean, they still play, my brother doesn’t sing for them any more. They were on Gringo records, and um – but they were quite lo-fi kind of thing, and yeah they influenced me quite a bit, ‘cause they were like the first … the first band that I knew that actually brought proper records out and, you know, actually played decent gigs and stuff you know, so [I’m like, ‘Woooow’ ((turns head and rolls eyes to ceiling))]

13.48 AM [So what] sort of band are they, what sort of music do they play? 13.50 LT It’s kind of – it’s a ((shaking head slightly)) – hard to describe, it’s kind of progressive,

you know, quite arty, they were a four-piece, when my brother was in the band, he was (the) singer, and he played a little bit of keyboards, so they’re now just a three-piece, instrumental three-piece I believe, now, so . . .You know, it’s um – (the) bass player doesn’t write bass lines so much as ((somewhat wry look)) bass symphonies, you know, it’s quite complicated and [just quite out there.]

14.22 AM [OK, yeah ..yeah yeah} Alright, yeah - 14.23 LT (But) that – that was what sort of brought me into the alternative side of rock, really,

listening to them and going, ‘Oh, so it’s not just you’re bog-standard, you know, 4/4s, and ‘I’m in G, I’m going to stick to G,’ do y’know what I mean, that was what introduced the whole sort of randomness of – of some music to me, you know.

14.42 AM So when you’re (tuning) guitar, you did some music theory and stuff like that. 14.45 LT Not really, not to start with. I learnt what the strings were, and I learnt what the frets

were on the E and the A, (the bottom) two strings, and then from there I picked up theory as I went really, as and when I felt I needed it, I’d be like, ‘Well I don’t understand why that’s doing that,’ so I’d either go and ask somebody or I’d look it up, or, you know if I couldn’t figure (it) out myself. A lot of theory I know is – I understand it in my own way, you know, and it may not be the classical way of understanding it or anything [but, that’s how I understand it.]

15.19 Am [Ok, yeah] 15.19 LT I mean my understanding of things generally tends to be a bit different from other

people’s, I’m dyslexic as well, so the way I think about things, the way I understand things – like, if I was trying to explain it to somebody else they’d just be like, ‘What the hell are you talking about?’ (but) it makes sense in my head, [it works.]

15.32 AM Sure, OK, yeah.


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15.36 LT Yeah ((nodding)) 15.32 AM Alright. Good! OK – anything else you want to say? 15.38 LT No (?) it’s cool. 15.40 AM Alright then. 15.40 LT (Alright?) 15.40 AM Yeah that’s cool.


22

Participants Simon Hewett (SH)

Andrew McGuiness (AM) Location Bristol Date April to August 2007 Source DV videotape Notes Simon plays guitar and sings for birdbath Transcribed by Andrew McGuiness Date 18 August 2007 Acknowledgements Fieldwork funded by Open University

Time Actor Transcript 0.00 AM Ok. So – Simon: just to get started, can you tell me a little bit – tell me basically how

you came to play music. 00.13 SH Umm … ((5 second pause)) phhh I think I was about 14? And I wanted a guitar and I

got a guitar, and that’s where it started I suppose;. My sister got a drum kit very shortly after, and – and we used to jam, at our house. I think it started then, really.

00.35 AM Alright, OK. So you wanted a guitar. [You liked music already.] 00.35 SH [Yeah.] Yeah ((nodding)) yeah, I got into heavy metal. 00.43 AM Right 00.43 SH - wore black, had long hair. 00.46 AM Yeah. OK. ((2 second pause)) Um… So – tell me, why did you like heavy metal? What

is it about the music 9…0 in general that attracted you? 00.58 SH ((2 second pause)) (God,) that’s a good question. Umm – I think \I liked the alternative

side of it, I didn’t really like the happy, pop chart music. I think I liked the aggression in it, although I’m not really aggressive, I like that energy that it put out. Oh I dunno, I suppose I liked the beat of it, I liked the distorted guitar, (I was) attracted to that; and probably, to be fair, as a teenager, I was attracted to the whole image and culture surrounding it. Probably had a bit to do with it. Umm … ((4 second pause))

01.43 AM Yeah? Yeah. (That’s good.) This is my first – first actual rock interview, I’ve done some interviews with other people on Indian music, [so I’ve never tried these questions out before.]

01.54 SH [OK.] No – that’s fine. [I’ve never been – I’ve never been interviewed, so …] 01.56 AM [(So) it’s new for me as well.] OK, alright. Ahh – OK. OK, we’ll (slip) across now to a

little about process, about how you um, 02.10 SH ((laughs aloud, as his phone starts to ring)) It’s alright, it’s Ben. ((speaks to Ben Heal,

birdbath bass player)). That was Ben, from birdbath. 02.38 AM Yeah. OK – yeah, can you tell me, how songs get written. How do songs in birdbath get

written. 02.44 SH How songs in birdbath get written? Quite a few different ways, I reckon. I’d say …the

majority of the time – well, again, (it’s the) way we used to write them. When birdbath first started out, I’d say (-hhh) we’d jam, we’d improvise, make it upon the spot. Errm, we’d put a tape recorder in the room and sometimes jam for an hour at a time, (and) then we’d go out and we’d listen to it and pick (out) the bits we liked. Errm, and work from there, (basically) – usually that would be the basis of a song. And . . we’d work on it


23

from there. Sometimes we’d have a jam and we’d notice something there and then and we’d work on it then. Errm, nowadays, again we still do that, we’ll jam it on the spot, it’s like today we wrote a song, and … (come to a) stop when something good happened and … picked it up a bit from there. Sometimes one of us will write the beginning of a riff and introduce it to the band, and … the rest of the band will jam along to that riff. And … sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t work. ((3 second pause)) °Mind’s gone blank.°

04.02 AM That’s alright, that’s OK, that’s good. So, (can you) – can I dig a little bit more there. If you’re jamming, right? So, you’re kind of making things up as you go along. When something good happens, what is it that happens – is it something that’s between the band as whole? Or …

04.22 SH I think something that’s really important …. – the band used to be me, Tim and Ben. And I know for fact, without probably being able to describe it properly, we definitely all shared a similar – not only a similar taste in music, but a similar taste in the vision of what we were trying to create, I think? Errm because, for instance when we were first listening back on those recordings we did, if there was something amazing, at the same time you could guarantee all three of us would go: ‘That was brilliant.’

04.50 AM Ah … yeah? 04.50 SH Errm and I think – yeah probably the same as when, if we’re jamming something, when

the right note’s hit, we all know it, and usually … ((nodding head)) there’ll be a bit of eye contact (and) like ((nodding)) 'Yeah, that was the one, yeah’. (So we’d) usually be jamming a riff that would just be repeated and we’ll repeat that riff until we – we’re happy with it and then develop a bit more of the song from there.

05.11 AM Mmm. ((3 second pause)). [?] 05.14 SH [I have – I have to] put a top on, ‘cause I’m absolutely freezing. Sorry, Ben, (I’m just

going to) say sorry. ((reaching for sweater and pulling it on)) °Apocalypse Now is out now° ((zipping up sweater))

05.35 AM So you were saying, you mentioned that ((chuckle)) – that … 05.37 SH ((chuckle)) Sorry - 05.37 AM .. you all had the same kind of vision, the three of you. 05.40 SH Yeah, yeah [yeh] 05.41 AM You, Tim and Ben. About, um, what things were good. Can you describe that more? Can

you say what it was then that – that …[about the music]. 05.46 SH [I think what it was, was -] probably Ben primarily, errm, was introducing me to a lot of

bands around then, which I’d probably class as alternative at that point, and I think that we’d sit and listen to other bands a lot, the three of us, and I think, if a good bit in a song came up, one of us would mention it, and we’d all agree, so I think from that, we had an idea of what each other liked. [Is that making sense?]

06.23 AM [Yeah.] yeah! Yeah, sure - 06.25 SH And I think that happened quite a lot. So – and from that I think we all knew what each

other – we knew that we shared the same musical ear for what we were trying to create, I guess.

06.35 AM OK. (-hhh- Ok, a little bit more about lyrics. Who writes the lyrics, do you? Cause you sing them …[yeah]

06.41 SH [Yeah.] ((gives a little chuckle)) Errm … I don’t write many lyrics. I’ve always stumbled on lyrics. I’d say it’s probably my weakest point. Errm … they usually don’t mean


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(anything) – sometimes I’ll write something, and it might have some meaning. Usually, if we’re jamming, I’ll um – always – all music I’m interested in, the actual lyric line I find irrelevant. It’s the harmony, it’s the actual music that the voice is giving, I’m usually not interested in what they’re singing about. Although … I do listen to it. And it can make a song better. Errm … usually if we’re jamming, and I’ll sing along a vocal line and I’ll – I’ll just – won’t even be speaking English. And then sometimes a word will pop out, and then I might base a sentence around that word. Or – sometimes we’ll come up with ridiculous lines like Tim (did today) ((collapses in laughter)) Um – Only saying that actually, one of the earliest songs, Tim’s written some lyrics. Errm, (just) very minimal lyrics. Errm … for instance How to make a shitload of money is literally about really old computer games where you (have to) – the screen would prompt you to press play on tape and that’s all the song’s about. So not really any depth to it. ((smiling))

08.20 AM Mmm, mm. Ok, good so – can I ask you directly about music then – if the lyrics aren’t about meaning, do you – do you find music meaningful, do you think of it as meaning something? [Yeah?]

08.34 SH [Yeah. Errm …] yeah definitely. I think … when you hear a bit of a song you enjoy, you can get excitement from that, so yeah I think it does have meaning, I Suppose, but not in a … in a language sense I suppose.

08.54 AM Yeah 08.54 SH See in a sense I have written some lyrics where there’s a bit of cryptic meaning in it, but

((make a moue)) nothing huge there. 09.04 AM That’s good. (-hhh) OK – um, tell me how do you remember? –what you play, so you

know, if you play a song, and then, um, you know, here’s a good example, if you play something and you record it …

09.18 SH Yeah - 09.18 AM … say if you’re jamming and then you listen back, and you hear something that you

played. How do you remember how to reproduce it, how do you get it again on the guitar?

09.29 SH Errm … I think in the early days, we didn’t – which is why we recorded it, and often we’d go an listen to the music, and listen back to it and say, ‘That was great, that bit do (you remember)’ ‘Oh no I can’t remember playing that,’ we didn’t remember playing it at all and we have to re-work it out. I think actually (we’ve) always – Ben particularly, has got a huge collection of music (we) always recorded a practice. Errm … I think a lot of the time we do remember though, um, for instance today we were practicing and we just (practiced) – we played one new song, we wrote a new song today and we played it continually for a couple of hours. And I think, through repetition, that’ll be drilled in now. But quite often if you leave it a while you can forget, what you played.

10.14 AM So, when –what – when you play something on guitar, what do you remember – you know, when you come back to it, what – you say, ‘I’m gonna play that riff again’

10.22 SH Oh, OK … 10.22 AM What do you remember like the spot [on the guitar …] 10.24 SH [The pattern …] 10.24 AM Ah – the pattern … 10.25 SH Errrm … I remember the area of the guitar … 10.30 AM Yeah …


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10.30 SH … and … ((3 second pause)) I don’t know, yeah, I don’t know actually. Think it probably is a bit of patterns, but I remember the area of the guitar I’m in, and usually roughly what strings. And, I’ll also have an idea of how the song goes. (Are) you talking just – for instance, the- the - when you’ve written a new song, or [a song you already have - just generally]

10.54 AM [Just generally,] I mean, (when) – once you remember it there’s somehow that – that you must use to remember it, what – what is it that you remember it … by.

11.03 SH I don’t know I think a song that you know really well it’s just um ((shaking head)) the same as how you remember anything. You know, kind of like, how do you remember where your front door is? It’s probably the same as that, you just know, don’t you, ‘cause you’re always walking out it.

11.19 AM Yeah. Yeah. 11.19 SH I don’t know, but for a new song, yeah, it’s probably slightly different. Errm … don’t

know, it’s [a good question.] 11.26 AM [that’s alright -] yeah it is, isn’t it, it’s interesting stuff. (-hhhh) Alright … um – [yeah?] 11.33 SH (I’ll tell you what, I’ll) just answer that, I kind of …. – I’m not that good musically, as

far as scales and how chords are built up but I do have a loose understanding of it, and I’ve got a rough idea, say for instance if I’m in C, I’ll know where the seventh note is and I’ll know what sort of sound that is. So, if I’ve started something on, say the note of C, I would be able to hear whether it’s a seventh-type note or not that [I’m looking for, so I can roughly]

12.03 AM [Yeah – Ok so you – ] it’s partly knowing what the notes are in the thing. But when you’re actually playing guitar, like, once you – if you’re playing a riff or you’ve played a riff, do you automatically know what notes you’ve played? Or … do you, um - if you want to figure out the notes afterwards would you know some of them and have to sort of go, ‘I played this one here and I played that …’

12.32 SH Oh I see, errm … yeah I can work them out quite quickly. But I then write down what note I’m playing I think – yeah I do know pretty much on the keyboard what note that is and if I want to transpose that lower down, I can do that [straight away.]

12.46 AM Yeah. But what I’m getting at is that, when you’re actually playing, I mean are you aware you’re playing E-C-G-A, would you all the time, or not?

12.57 SH It’s with me all the time but I don’t know every note, I only sometimes know what I’m playing, in fact to be honest with you I think if I really learnt that and I was always really aware of it, I don’t think I’d write the same music when we’re jamming. (Because) I think a lot of it is – is just experiment, as opposed to ‘B should sound right here so I’ll try B’.

13.17 AM OK! OK, so … 13.17 SH Sometimes I can be playing something (and) if that note sounds good I’ll know roughly

pattern-wise something else might sound good. And … but no, I’m not fully aware of what note all the time.

13.29 AM Because it’s different on the keyboard, isn’t it? You can’t not – not know what note you’re playing really, can you? ‘Cause it’s [laid out for you, kind of thing. Alright, so - ].

13.33 SH [Yeah …yeah. And actually,] the guitar can completely throw you off, for instance I mean, someone can be playing E, say the bass is playing E, errm … and you start jamming along in E major, you’ll see the pattern of what notes, I can - you roughly know where you’re going, but (then it’s - jump) something else on top like F, it


26

completely throws everything you were using. 14.01 AM OK. You mean so you’d, you’d have like one potential set of patterns if you were in E,

and if somebody plays a note that doesn’t fit in that key - 14.13 SH It kind of throws it off and then, I think that’s something that’s true with birdbath when

we’re jamming particularly we’re just chucking some random stuff out, so there’s no …. – although I might be able to think, ‘Oh, that’s a C there’ ((looking down, as if look at guitar fret board)) I wouldn’t put it in a kind of a scale, I would never use a scale. Like you’ve got your pentatonic scales that you can traditionally solo over if someone’s playing in the key of something, it’s errm ..yeah, that kind of goes out the window, I think.

14.39 AM Ah. So – a little while ago you said a lot of the time you just experiment to find something new. How do you experiment? Like – you know – you personally, on the guitar, when you’re playing with the band, what’s experimentation, how do you experiment?

14.56 SH Errm … literally um …. Not know what the hell I’m going to do the second I do it. Errm … ((3 second pause)) I don’t know. Errm, just playing something and it either works, or it doesn’t, and usually there’ll be a part of it that works and you can hone in on that bit and expand that bit and just keep playing it until you’re happy with it, or you’re not happy with it at all and sometimes you’ll just play it and ((scratches ear with finger)) you’ll really like it. I suppose – I think that’s roughly what happens. ((chuckles in self-deprecatory way))

15.39 ANM °Yeh, that’s good. ° This is good stuff for me. 15.43 SH Is it? 15.43 AM Yeah! 15.44 SH OK. ((nods)) 15.45 AM I’m looking for support for my theories ((half laughs)) 15.50 SH Mmmm. 15.51 AM Um … °what else was I gonna ask you? ° (-hhhhh) 15.58 SH I think also, I mean there is so much in there what is experimenting, you can – I mean

say for instance you’ve got a song and we’re learning it, just written it, and you’ve got your guitar bit and you’re happy with it, you could still – once you’ve got a rough thing, pretty much know what you’re doing, you could still, ‘I might try (to) chuck that note in,’ you could try it and it doesn’t work, so – you got some basic experimentation there.

16.23 AM Yeah. 16.24 SH I think, err … mmm – as a band you can experiment, I think we do that a lot with timing.

Maybe – say again, for instance today we wrote a song that was pretty much 4/4, and then we said instead of making that one four, let’s make it nine, [so it completely throws it out …]

16.43 AM [Yeah…} OK. 16.44 SH And I suppose that’s experimenting as well. 16.50 AM Yeah … that’s a little bit different, isn’t it, because you’re bringing in like a conscious

strategy. 16.53 SH I se, OK, yeah – yeah, it’s conscious experimenting I suppose, isn’t it, yeah. 16.59 AM As opposed °to the slightly different process when you’ve got the guitar in your hands,

sort of thing. ° Which kind of leads me to something else, when you’re listening to


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something, if you’re listening to a tape back or you’re listening to some music with people, right …

17.14 SH Of – the band, or …? 17.15 AM Of the band, or anything, you know you were saying, in both cases, you know you’d say,

‘Oh, that bit there, that bit, [that works’.] 17.19 SH Yeah - 17.19 AM OK. Do you have, like um, apart from that situation where you’ve just heard something

(and) you go, ‘That,’ that bit there - do you have ways of referring to stuff in music, when you talk about music to people.

17.37 SH Yes. 17.40 AM Can you say, do … that thing – and you know, if it’s not there to say, ‘Like that,’ – do

you see what I’m trying to ask you? 17.47 SH Yeah, I think s, I think sometimes we’ll – say, a song’ll be written but one of the guitar

parts isn’t written, and we’ll be listening to the song, we’ll say, ‘Yeah, I think that needs a so-and-so type of riff,’ and sometimes we’ll cite another band who were particularly well known for a certain type of riff. Or, in the same I suppose as you can listen to a bit of music and say, ‘Yeah, they sound a bit like so-and-so.’

18.10 AM Yeah, OK, yeah. 18.11 SH Errrm …can you say the question again, because I … 18.14 AM I’m asking more or less if you have like, um, musical objects that you can refer to, like,

play this, play … that, like jazz musicians can say, ‘Use this scale,’ or “use this kind of chord progression,’ or those sorts of things.

18.36 SH Yeah, I think we probably have stupid words like I think we could say to Ben on the bass, ‘Yeah, play something chunky,’ [and know what that means.]

18.42 AM [Alright, yeah.] Yep, yeah. 18.43 SH And … yeah, so we have got probably a whole (lot) of that going on. 18.53 AM And those sorts of things - ok, that – you know, ‘chunky’ sounds like something you

could probably transport to another set of musicians, if you went to another band you could say, ‘Play something chunky,’ and they’d probably understand more or less the same thing from that?

19.11 SH Probably, yeah. I think so. I mean I don’t think, say ‘chunky’ is a documented word but I think probably (if) you said ((looking upwards and smiling)) ‘chunky’ to someone they’d have an idea. It kind of … describes, a bit.

19.24 AM It does, a bit, doesn’t it. 19.25 SH Yeah. And I think again like, the longer you’re in a band – for instance, we’ve been

playing music together for I don’t know, er …hm … thirteen years ((laughs)) 19.38 AM Really? 19.39 SH ((still laughing, nods)) And I think the more you play music together the more you

become in tune with each other … 19.47 AM Sure 19.47 SH .. and you … do get to know what each other’s going to do and again you get like, the

lingo, you can say, ‘Oh yeah, I might do something chunky there, ‘ and you go, ‘oh yeah,’ and you know what each other’s talking [about.]

20.02 AM So you build up a bit of a vocabulary, both of – not (just) – of understanding directly, [and also of some words that you can apply to that.]


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20.07 SH [Yeah, mmm,] mmm. 20.09 AM Yeah. °OK° (-hhhhh) Good. I think that’s about it, that’s about all I can think of at the

moment. 20.15 SH Mmm. 20.16 AM Except I wanted to ask, how did birdbath get its name – and is it spelt with a little ‘b’ or

(a) big ‘B’? 20.20 SH Little ‘b’. 20.21 AM Yeah. 20.24 SH Yes …. Again, that’s all up to experimentation, because there’s no set way. I think once

we wrote it with capitals but the first B is small. I’m sure it’s been written where everything but both Bs are small, or … I don’t know.

20.45 AM And how – why – where did you get the name from? 20.46 SH I think some other people have got different stories but I’m positive errm … it was early

on, and we hadn’t been together long, and … I think probably like most bands, we went through every name under the sun, and spent a few weeks doing so. And you get to the point where everything is great for a minute and then (it’s rubbish), and then one of us, I’m not too sure who, said, ‘Birdbath,’ kind of not seriously at all and instantly everyone was like, ‘No, it’s rubbish’ and the person who said it was, ‘Yeah, but that’s why it’s good. Because it is rubbish.’ Errm … or because it isn’t – you’re trying to look for the ((raising sho9ulders and eyebrows)) ultimate name and … you can’t find it and so birdbath instantly kind of had no appeal, and that’s why it stuck. And then I think we went with birdbath, knowing that it probably wouldn’t stick, and …every time we said, ‘Our name’s birdbath,’ it made us laugh because it was ridiculous, and then because of that it was extra reason to keep it, maybe … I think… (that’s) how I saw it.

21.57 AM OK! Very good! Thanks! 22.01 SH Thank you.


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Participants Tim Gibbons (TG)

Andrew McGuiness (AM) Location Bristol Date April to August 2007 Source DV videotape Transcribed by Andrew McGuiness Date 19 August 2007 Acknowledgements Fieldwork funded by Open University Time Actor Transcript 0.00 TG (What it was, I) got some puff pasty, and mixed the tuna with white sauce and chopped-

up hardboiled eggs and folded the puff pasty over them, cooked it and had it with aaah .. green beans and sweet corn. (And it) was pretty damn good.

00.16 AM I tried the um, I tried the poached egg [method. Yeah.] 00.20 TG [Oh, did you?] Did it work? 00.21 AM Yeah, it did. 00.22 TG Excellent! It’s the vinegar, see. 00.24 AM Yeah. OK! 00.27 TG Cor, I fancy a poached egg now. 00.29 AM ((laughs)) Tim [(…)] 00.32 TG Hello. 00.34 AM ((coughs)) Let’s start off more or less in the same place, tell me how you – how you

started, um, playing music. How you came to play music [for (first).] 00.44 TG Aaahh. I’m not entirely sure which came first … Um, I had violin lessons for a year,

when I was I think about … ten. I sopped that ‘cause my violin teacher died. Aah, and I took up flute for a year, after that. And stopped that because … I was starting secondary school and I ((smiling)) didn’t want to be the kid that played the flute. Aahh, but also – my Mum (was) – basically my Mum was responsible for me and my brothers getting into music, mostly. She taught me a Spanish style riff on the guitar, I think I was probably 7 or 8,m so that would have come first, and I think I played that same tune on occasions for about three or four years, (I would) just pick up the guitar and … play it. And then put the guitar down at some point, decided I should probably learn something else. So (I) just started messing around, really … teaching myself odd bits and bobs, and my brother’s also a guitarist so he would get me to play bass for him. (He) wanted – we used to play sort of Queen riffs and things like that so he’d teach me bass parts I could play and (it) just progressed from there really – [bought guitars and … yeah – just … taught myself.]

02.05 AM [Mmm.] And so if you guys have been playing together for like, 13 years, then you (must) – you probably started playing together fairly young, when you were still at high school …[Sixteen.}

02.16 TG [Six – sixteen I think,] (it) was college, I’d say, yeah. ((nodding)) Sixteen. So yeah, been a fair while.

02.23 AM Mmm. OK. 02.24 TG With breaks. Hasn’t – hasn’t been entirely continuous, but …


30

02.28 AM Right. Yeah. 02.32 TG But … you know, never any large portions. Think there were a couple of years, I reckon,

when we didn’t play at all, and then (we) went through a three … maybe a three-year period when we’d get together once a year, for a gig and sort of practice the night before a gig, then did a gig, then not see each other for a year again.

02.48 AM Right. 02.49 TG Then at one point (we) decided that we should just … kick it back off again. 02.53 AM Right. ((louder)) So – what is it about music, what made you want to learn in the first

place, what made you want to start up the band again. 03.03 TG Umm … I don’t think the desire for this band ever left any of us. I think it was … I don’t

know, it was always there. And as soon as the talk of some music project happening again … aaah … I think it was me that mentioned - Simon threw in the idea of resurrecting birdbath, then, (it) obviously went down quite well, so … nyeah. That was how it happened.

03.32 AM (Alright.) 03.32 TG I’d say there wasn’t really a – any prolonged period, it wasn’t so much of a reformation

‘cause we were always having a(n) occasional jam. 03.41 AM Yeah … 03.41 TG In that period, but … it was always the same material that we – played the same set in

the same order, for … ((smiling, turning head to side)) how long … [maybe 10 years.] 03.49 AM [(-hhhh) So, what - ] - what drew you back to it? 03.54 TG To – to ((enquiring)) 03.36 AM To music, to the band? To the music, in particular. 03.58 TG Aahh … well I certainly never stopped music, I’ve always been – it’s always been a

massive constant, in my life. Um … but birdbath. Just … missing the connection that we had, as a group of people, and the buzz that was there when something – when something worked …

04.17 AM Yeah - 04.18 TG … and… you know that the other people in the band are getting that same buzz at the

same time. ((downward smile)) 04.23 AM Yeah. 04.24 TG Dunno. Kind of miss that – that, that electrical connection I think. 04.30 AM So – what is it that gives you a buzz? What, or …. What kind of music – what is it about

music? … 04.41 TG Music in general? 04.43 AM … or the music that you like? Why do you choose the music that you play, to play? 04.48 TG Aaahh … (-hhhh) that’s a tough one. I don’t think … - choice is probably the wrong

word, because it – it all stemmed from just getting together in a room and jamming, so the sort of ah … - the general basis of our sound was … almost accidental, (it) – it wrote itself. Errm – so that was born by itself, so the progressions of that are probably what we’ve had more of a conscious input in towards. So, I’m not sure really what – what drives it. Errm … ((coughs; 2 second pause)) myeah. ((raised eyebrows))

05.34 AM °Yeah. [That’s OK. ]° 05.35 TG [I dunno.] 05.37 AM They’re hard questions to answer, [I know}.


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05.39 TG Mmm. 05.40 AM And they’re – there’s probably a better way of asking the questions, but [I’m – I sort of

…] 05.43 TG [I actually forgot the question] there as well. 05.44 AM ((laughs) Yeah. 05.45 TG I went off on one and couldn’t remember what the question was. 05.47 SIMO

N ((off mic)) (…) Sorry to interrupt, it’s not a choice, it was what just came out. (…)

05.49 TG Mmm. Oh that’s right, chooses the sound, yeah … 05.53 AM Hmm … 05.54 TG Yeah, as for that, it’s just what you’re used to playing, so … that’s where we’ve been

getting our … - our buzz from for years, so … we continue it and just try and – try and progress - change things a bit. (I) mean there’s … - the music that you’ve recorded is … pretty different from the first album that we did and … - and to be honest, the two or three riffs that we’ve – songs that we’ve come up with since are very different from this project that you’ve just recorded.

06.24 AM Mmm. 06.25 TG So, I think that’s a …- I think it’s a good thing. There are definitely constants in the

things that we do, I think we’re quite distinctive – to ourselves, anyway, we … 06.37 AM Yeah … 06.38 TG … so certain things have to remain, I think – again, not by choice, they just will, ‘cause

that’s … how you do things. 06.44 AM Yeah. 06.45 TG But … (hhh) Yeah I think as time’s gone on we’ve … experimented a lot more with odd

timings, or – or (hhh) how many times to do a certain thing, or putting little stops and starts in sort of tricky places …

07.00 AM Yeah… yeah 07.01 TG … which I think is more just to keep our interest there, and … a lot of it’s … (hhh) I

dunno, on purpose to make things sound a bit ((short laugh)) wrong, [almost, so …] 07.11 AM ((short laugh)) Yeah . . .To make things sound a bit wrong. 07.14 TG Yeah – wrong but right … 07.15 AM Yeah… yeah 07.16 TG … if that makes sense. 07.16 AM Yeah, it makes sense. (-hhh) So, if you record something, is that – is that like a

milestone for you, is it like, you like to get something recorded so that you can move on from it and do, so [something different?]

07.28 TG [Aahhm …] for me personally, in many ways, yeah. I dunno how the other – other guys think about it, but … for the last two albums it has been. The first album we didn’t record ‘til, ((frowning)) I think ‘til we got back together, or… we didn’t finish it, properly …

07.48 SIMON

((off mic)) (…) recorded it over 5 years …

07.49 TG We recorded it over the years where things were sporadic and I think, I think that was a case wanting to get that done and dusted, because we wanted to have it for ourselves, so we wanted to do that before we moved on. I think it’s a similar boat this time, this … I


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almost view this set of songs that we’ve done now as … the sort of bedding in period with … - as a four-piece and to… see how things would turn out with an extra person in the band and …. So I think that’s that and I think the next lot of songs will be a lot more, lot more solid in a lot of areas.

08.25 AM OK. That’s right, ‘cause just for the tape, I know that you used to play drums … 08.32 TG Oh, didja? 08.33 AM That’s right, yeah … before Luke came in the band. 08.37 TG Started playing drums again by the look of it ((chuckles)) We’ve got a new song where

we swap round, Luke’s gone onto the guitar … 08.40 AM Right 08.41 TG … And I’ve gone onto drums, which is nice, drumming again. (for the benefit) I thick all

of us play the drums and the bass, so it’s a really nice option to have … 08.53 AM Yeah - 08.53 TG … to sort of swap around. Just because people put … a different influence on the music

by the different ways that they drum, or the different guitar styles that they have, so … It just gives it a bit more variation, which is – is always a good thing.

09.08 AM Mmm. OK, so if you’re … - here’s a good question, I think. If you’re drumming, as opposed to playing guitar, or … -what’s the difference for you in the way – in the way you specifically remember your parts, that you play?

09.27 TG ((2 second pause)) (hhh) Aahh … I’ve no idea. I’m not – not a particularly good drummer in … -with respect to er… ((2 second pause)) the tricks and skills at my disposal behind the kit, I’m fairly limited to … -my capabilities are limited. I can hold a beat and I come up with some interesting beats, I think but … I’m quite basic and solid with my drumming. Aahh … so there’s never a great deal of complicated … complicated stuff to remember, [so …]

10.04 AM OK ….OK. 10.06 TG I don’t know … -the sort of remembering things is a bit odd. You just – you just do. 10.10 AM Eh. [Yeah] 10.11 TG [And if you don’t,] you rewrite it and can remember sort of what it is, so … 10.165 AM You work it out again … 10.17 TG Yeah, work it out again, [it might be slightly different …yeah. ] 10.18 AM [The same or a little bit different, I get it.] Ok, Yeah – yeah. (-hhhhh) Alright. Um …

((coughs)) let’s talk a bit about process ((coughs)) how do songs get written. 10.33 TG Er … largely jamming. 10.35 AM Yeah. 10.36 TG Definitely. Um … 10.39 AM A little bit more detail … 10.42 TG Um … I – it’s a bit (…) mostly repeating what Simon has said, [but yeah, certainly …] 10.47 AM [Yeah} 10.47 TG (-hhh) Definitely the beginning, most of the stuff (of) … - probably all of it actually was

just by jamming spontaneously in a room. I had a (little) – one of those little tape recorders that your mum would have in the kitchen with a built-in mic and … press record and jam ‘til the tape ran out. And then go into Simon’s garden shed, have a smoke and a cup of tea and listen to the tape, pick out any areas that were good, and then go back and try and work out what they were. Often we would remember them and that


33

would be the basis of songs, quite often we didn’t work on them a great deal more than the structure that was there. We just worked that out or changed it little bits, umm … recently there’s been a few riffs that someone has brought to a band practice (said), “Oh, I’ve got this,’ and … let’s see how that works, I think Simon’s definitely had one or two, I’ve had one, Luke’s brought one up recently, which was a guitar riff, hence me going back on the drums. Um … so that’s the basis of it and then, I think once the sort of core of the song is there then … we start picking at the arrangement of things and trying to make it a little more interesting … mmm, a little bit harder for Luke, [so …]

12.10 AM [((laughs))] How harder for Luke? {In what way is that?] 12.11 TG [Um …] just because of the odd timings and where we’ll stop and start again … 12.20 AM Right 12.21 TG … I think, from drumming a little myself I can probably appreciate that it, it’s harder for

a drummer to cope with the sort of awkward changes than it would be for the guitarist. 12.33 AM Because (the gap) – guitarist has got like … notes and things like that to remember it

whereas the drummer has … 12.39 TG Yeah … well not so much the notes, it’s just the structure of things, (all …) 12.42 AM Yeah … why is it different for guitarists rather than drummers? 12.46 TG I’m not … not really sure, I just – I know for me personally I’m – I’m more comfortable

with that side of things [with the guitar than with drums, but ...] 12.54 AM [Yeah . . . than with drums, yeah.] 12.56 TG … whether that’s to do with my drumming capabilities or not, I don’t know. Luke’s

certainly a more capable drummer than myself, but … I dunno. 13.04 AM So – how do you remember arrangements? If there’s an odd timing, you know, or an

unexpected stop … do you count? 13.13 TG … Mnnno. No< I don’t personally, I know there’s some people that do. Er … it’s just a

natural reaction, I think, once you’ve played it a few times (…) when you’re first sorting out these things, and you’ll mess up a few times or forget that there’s supposed to be an extra little bit, or that bit taken off, or something along those lines but … once you’ve played them through a few times it just becomes embedded.

13.42 AM Yep. ((2 second pause)) °OK° 13.45 TG So … yeah 13.46 AM So if you’re playing, how far ahead do you think, do you think ahead? In terms of what

you’re playing, or … ? 13.53 TG ((coughs)) Aahh … Only if there’s a – particular part of a –particular song I know I quite

often … either cock up or forget to do or something like that, then I’ll try and make a mental note when we start playing the song, so you’re – while you’re playing the beginning you’re kind of reminding yourself not to forget. Aahhm … but quite often you get sort of carried away and that thought goes. But aahh … yeah I don’t really think ahead as such …

14.26 AM No. [Once something’s trained in …] 14.27 TG [That kind of makes me think of people playing chess,] you know? And sort of thinking

what they’re going to do next. (I) just … don’t really do that a great deal, I don’t think. (As I said) unless it’s a particular part I know the change is going to be hard, or … I might put a bit more thought into it.

14.40 AM That’s good. (-hhhhhhhh) ((3 second pause)) So, about lyrics, do you actually know


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what Simon’s singing? 14.55 TG Yeah, some of the time. 14.57 AM Some of the time ((laughs)) 14.58 TG Yeah, quite often not. Ahh … 15.00 AM So … 15.01 TG I think they get changed as well, (…) you know, from when he first sings them to

((coughs)) for example the point of recording, I think things have changed slightly. In fact I think on this recording that you’ve done there was a new lyric that (we) heard for the first time, possibly.

15.20 Simon ((off mic)) what was that? 15.21 TG I’m not sure. But I seem to remember something was slightly different or new , I can’t

remember what it was. 15.30 AM Alright … (-hhh) So, should I take it from that that – you know, a particular song

doesn’t mean anything in particular to you? 13.40 TG Aahhm … ((3 second pause; frowning slightly)) What, with reference to lyrical content,

or …? 15.47 AM With reference to anything you like. 15.50 TG ((2 second pause)) Of our stuff, do you mean, or stuff that I write myself, or stuff [that I

listen to?] 15.55 AM [Yeah … let’s talk – let’s talk] about your stuff, about the stuff you play with birdbath. 16.02 TG (…) No philosophical sort of meaning, no. ‘Cause, like we’ve discussed this very sparse

lyrical content, and … no it’s more about just the feeling that you get from playing it, really. So, yeah. There’s - there’s meaning in that respect.

16.29 AM Yeah. ((2 second pause)) That’s good! (-hhh) Aaahhm – is there anything else that I ask(ed)? Do you remember?

16.39 TG Not sure … (…) 16.41 AM Anything else you can think of to tell me? To talk about? 16.43 TG The name. 16.45 AM The name! Yeah – how did it – [how did…] 16.47 TG {I have a take on this.] ((Laughs)) 16.48 AM Yeah, I thought this might happen. 16.52 TG (-hhhh) And I’m not sure I actually remember this or whether … through discussion,

I’ve had a false memory implanted in my head. Erm, but the way I was aware of the name coming was from one of our cups of tea and cigarettes in the shed, listening back to the music and … the door was open, and in your Mum’s garden ((Tim is addressing Simon, who is off-camera)) at the top of the little stairs ((gesture of going up and flattening out, with R hand)) before you get to the shed bit, there’s a birdbath and … ((shakes head)) it was just a random name thrown (out of) the wind, from (someone looking out the door) and ‘birdbath’, and … it stuck.

17.29 Simon ((off mic)) Yeah. 17.30 TG So that’s …- that was how I remember it, and … yeah. ((4 second pause)) And yeah, it’s

spelt with little Bs …. And it’s all one word. 17.43 [°It’s all one word. °] 17.43 Simon ((off mic)) [(yeah, that’s the important thing.)] 17.44 TG But the old spelling I think you were trying to remember was, the Bs … it was a small B


35

and then a capital I and R, and a small D a small B a capital A capital T and then a small H.

17.55 Simon ((off mic)) Yeah, OK. 17.56 TG I remember that one. 17.58 Simon ((off mic)) Yeah. 17.59 TG I don’t think it lived for very long though. ((chuckles)) 18.05 AM OK. I’m gonna turn the camera off now, I think. 18.07 TG OK 18.08 AM This probably will prompt you to think of [something.] 18.09 TG [((laughs))]

Camera is turned off, then interview continues with both Tim and Simon Hewett (SH):

18.13 AM [Nothing to talk about now, is there?] 18.13 SH ((to Tim)) [They’re replacing you soon, I’m gonna bring it up] ((laughs)) yeah, I’m

gonna bring it up for you. 18.16 TG ((to Simon)) Brilliant. ((they both laugh)) It might fit (my house) you know. 18.20 AM Try this, talk a little bit about the music you like. What sort of music do you both like. 18.26 SH We recently discovered a band called Heavy Vegetable, but something I think is very

true is that … there’s a large chunk of a type of music that all three of us … 18.33 TG Yeah, this is a really good question. 18.34 SH … completely share. Errm, and individually we definitely all listen to stuff that other

[members wouldn’t go near.] 18.42 TG [Yeah] 18.43 AM OK, so there’s some stuff you all like and then there’s some stuff that {is really

individual.] 18.46 SH [Yeeah.] We discovered a band recently, or Ben introduced us to a band called Heavy

Vegetable who instantly, as a band, we all absolutely adore and admire them for what they’re doing and (just) couldn’t sing their praises high enough really. ((looks to Tim))

19.02 TG No, not at all. 19.03 SH ((to Tim)) But what is it we like about that? 19.06 TG (hhhh) A lot of it’s … (the timing work on it. Errm, but I think for me it was largely –

(‘cause there’s) a lot of bands we listen to at the moment, really get interested in timing – I think it’s mostly the vocal work that …

19.23 SH Mmmm 19.23 TG … kind of stuck out. (It was) … it was like listening to a really dirty band that have got

the vocal qualities of the Beach Boys - 19.31 AM Yep. [Yeah I noticed that, actually.] ((TG and SH had earlier played some of a Heavy

Vegetable tape to AM)) 19.33 TG {Fantastic harmonies …] 19.35 SH Mmmm ((looking at Tim and agreeing)) 19.36 AM There’s like this , quite a heavy band underneath, and what sounded to me like Beatles

harmonies {on top. Yeah} 19.40 TG [yeah} 19.41 SH [yeah]


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19.42 TG (They do) really interesting things. 19.44 SH ((scratching cheek with R hand)) Very cleverly put together music … 19.45 TG (It’s) very well put together, it’s very intricate. Surprisingly intricate, actually 19.49 SH Mmm. What I find incredible about it, is the way that he churns out, by the (seem, the

sound) – looks of it the most incredible amount of music. 19.55 TG Mmm 19.56 SH ((shaking head)) Just chunks it oat. 20.00 TG Just one of those people that writes a few songs a day. 20.02 AM So there’s one guy - 20.03 TG (Well) there’s one guy who’s … 20.05 SH … seems to be the mastermind I think. 20.07 TG ((nods)) Yeah. I think so. (…) on … - his latest solo album has a list of his bands on the

back and it’s … at least 15 long, maybe 20, all these bands that he’s got records by. 20.17 SH Mmm. 20.18 TG They come out like there’s no tomorrow. And each album’s got 20-odd songs on it. 20.24 SH (One of the) other things I like about it is the way that probably none of the songs are

over two minutes, most of them are about a minute, minute and a half. And I think he … -say, write a riff, or finds something good about the song, and won’t drag the song out, he’ll just make the most of that riff, doesn’t have to repeat it 20 times, play the riff for as long as it … should naturally last, and then that’s it. And I think a lot of the time I’ve written – ((looking to Tim)) that’s one of things I love about birdbath actually, is that we don’t ever approach a song thinking, ‘Right we’ve gotta have a verse-chorus-verse, ‘ we – ((gesturing with open L hand for emphasis)) the music will dictate (where) the arrangement is. For instance we will come up with a riff, jam it, and that kind of (taught us) where the song’s gonna go, doesn’t it? ((to Tim))

21.02 TG Mmm. 21.03 SH And I’ve spent a lot of time in other bands in the past, thinking, ‘Right, I need to make a

song last a bit longer, let’s extend it in that verse a bit and … -which in some ways is a funny way to write music …

21.15 AM Mm. 21.16 TG ((to Simon)) Whereas like today, (we) had two new songs and they’ve ended up

becoming one. (We) put the two together and we’ve had to have a … -well we’ve put in a, like a slow build where the music just slows down over the build to bring the tempo down to the speed of the other [bit, and then …]

21.32 AM [Oh yeah, yeah.] 21.34 TG … then …- really they’ve got no place on earth being put together ((to Simon)) 21.38 SH No. ((both smile)) 21.39 TG ... .. at all, it’s, it’s dreadful 21.40 SH But we’ve made it work, and that again is[ quite interesting, isn’t it? In itself. Mmm] 21.42 TG [Yeah. We’ve managed to make it work] and it does actually sound good, so … It’s a

shame we’ve only got one song instead of the tow, but …((little laugh)) Yeah … yeah, it’s interesting. (I think it could) throw a lot of people off. °Which is good.°

21.57 SH (I think I’d like ) to put more vocals in ((scratching forehead with L hand)) I think we’ve all said that for a while. And um … (what you do and …) – I don’t know if I do this enough but for me it’s … ummmm … - the vocal is very much an extra instrument


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((looks at Tim)) 21.59 TG [yeah, definitely] 22.11 SH [That’s how I feel when] I’m, with jamming and I’m making up a vocal line. 22.14 AM Yeah. 22.15 TG ((to Simon))I quite like … writing lyrics, though, I think – more than you, say. 22.20 SH ((nods)) Probably, yeah. I’d like to be able to do it but my mind goes blank. It’s a bit

like when you … ((gestures with open L hand to AM)) asked me to talk into the camera, suddenly I don’t have ((shrugging shoulders, closing eyes)) anything on my mind to talk about at all.

22.32 AM °Yeah, yeah.° 22.33 TG °(There’s …. force lyrics ….)° ((this line v unclear)) 22.35 SH No, no. 22.38 TG (Well) nothing meaningful, anyway. (If there’s) nothing meaningful that you want to

write, then you just write … junk. 22.42 SH ((nodding, with serious expression)) Mmm. 22.43 TG Which is fair enough … (…) 22.47 AM So – talking about song structure, how do you think about your song structures, like um

… what are you trying to do with song structure. You know what I mean. Why is one song structure better than another? You know – what makes a good song structure?

23.06 TG Aahh … if it’s interesting, if it’s not 4/4 from start to finish, if there’s a signature change, or just a random block of something completely different thrown in, if … - I think if – what makes it good though is the whole band being tight on those changes. When they’re not quite there it just sounds scrappy, …

23.32 SH Yeah. 23.32 TG … so I think that’s the hard part, is getting everyone absolutely tight on it. 23.40 SH Again, I think a song can dictate where it’s going to go next, so if you kind of … - you

know the song’s going to build up, maybe and go heavier at some point, (right) and you’ve done a couple of quiet bits, you kind of … - you write, you get that far and you say, ((chopping motions with both hands)) ‘Yeah I think it can do with that heavy bit now, that bang, and erm … I can’t really explain it, you just get the feeling that it’s ready for that now.

24.03 AM OK 24.03 TG Yeah. 24.04 SH And it gets put in. 24.05 TG Some riffs need an instant hit, and some riffs want that ((gesture with L hand rising from

lap and moving ahead)) gradual build … 24.12 AM [yeah, right …] 24.12 TG [ … up to the,] you know to wherever the crescendo is gonna ((both hands move, palms

facing each other, as though putting something solid down on a table)) suddenly come in or if it’s gonna build up to that point, again it’s … ((turns to Simon)) yeah, it’s down to that, how the riff …

24.20 SH Yeeeah … Take for instance, Kruger, ((one of the birdbath songs recorded in the recent session)) it starts off, ((scratching cheek with R hand)) it’s not a fast song, errm, it’s kind of heavy but not really that heavy, it’s very interesting in a timing sense, and it goes along doing it’s bit for a bit and then ((both hands, palms facing each other)) … it goes


38

into a very – the drums cut out and it goes into a very (quiet) – it goes into a quiet bit, and – I don’t know how to describe it other than ((two hand gesture again)) that fits perfectly to come after that section, ((look at Tim)) and then, I think something that all of us knew instantly without even talking about it the next thing that came after that was ((two-hand gesture again, moving from face to lap)) a very heavy bit ((turns back to Tim again))

24.56 TG ((to Simon, moves LH in similar motion to Simon’s hands)) This is something that I was going to talk about but I forgot …

24.59 SH Right. 25.00 TG … which errm … going to talk about how we write songs together and what sort of

makes you … - what makes you enjoy them from it, and what makes you get that buzz. It’s moments when you’re jamming when you’re just jamming with something completely random, you’ve obviously stumbled upon ((both hands turned downwards as though holding something, move up and down)) something and it’s kind of working. But then … ((L hand rises in opening gesture)) sometimes there’ll be moments when we’re not looking at each other but all four will either hit that heavy thing, or ((both hands clenched in fists, drop from chest to lap)) really bring it down

25.28 AM Right, Yeah. 25.29 TG ((hands open, palms facing, moves as though rocking a ball)) … but you know, the

change is all the same note change ‘cause we’ve been playing there for a while and you just know how each other works and you can sort of sense it coming up. And ((hands again)) yeah, those moments ((looking to Simon))

25.38 SH Mmm 25.39 TG .. it’s (a) priceless, when everyone just hits the same thing at the same time. 25.43 AM Sure. Yeah. 25.44 TG That’s when you know that that song’s definitely going to work. ‘Cause it’s obviously

sort of pressing the same buttons on each of us at the same time. °So it’s something that I think is worth mentioning.°

25.57 SH Yeah, definitely. You’re absolutely right. It’s interesting how you say that you don’t count um.. and I think most of the time I don’t either. Sometimes once we’ve written a song, I have to count.

26.06 TG I get put off by counting. 26.07 SH Do you. 26.08 TG When we’ve got like the 10-gaps in silence … 26.10 SH Yeah - 26.11 TG .. … and we’ll stop, and you can just hear me going, °1 2 3 4 5 6 7° 26.14 AM ((laughs)) 26.15 TG … and I’ve gone ((R hand moves away from head)) I’ve lost it. You know, I know when

it’s going to come back in ((R hand across eyes)) but if someone’s counting (…) 26.22 SH ((nods)) Mmm 26.23 TG It completely throws me, so … I just want those – just give me two taps at the end

((miming hitting drumsticks together)) 26.25 SH Yeah, yeah. 26.26 TG … rather than ((mimes many fast hits with drumsticks)) You can see his head working so

hard to stay in time (-hhhhh)


39

26.31 SH Interesting 26.33 TG (….) it works (some of) the time. 26.34 SH Yeah, yeah …um … there was a jam we had just before – there was a little period we

had just before Luke joined the band, down in Bridgewater, and listening to the recording, probably about a year afterwards, and listening to this song and I knew that we were making it up on the spot or we just loosely jammed it and we said, ‘Right, let’s record it,’ we knew we were roughly going to do a few of those, a few of those, we’d let the song come down, build it back up, you see we’d just written the song, we didn’t really know how it was going but we had a rough idea of how we were going to let it go but we didn’t know for how long. And … - again, that’s a classic example of …((to Tim)) - you would build up and … maybe the first time we did it eight times and changed, but … the second time it would have been 10 or 16 but you – when the song was ready. But what I’m getting to is, listening back to it and suddenly there was a whole load of completely don’t know what the timing was, out of time, the band stopped and it was like ((moves hand and upper body down and to one side; mimicking band hits:)) durn – durndurn – and then back in, and there was a whole load of stuff. ((to Tim)) It’s not the …

27.34 TG ((hand across forehead and eyes)) No, I know which bit you want, but … 27.37 SH … and, I was listening to the thing and how the hell do we do that? And I remembered

back, and … we didn’t plan to do that, but we were looking at each other and I think you and Ben were kind of … ((sits up, holds air guitar, and bends torso down as a signal or cue)) like that. And … and it just it just worked.

27.52 TG I think – not that – obviously a different band, but … just for the sake of your theories it might be worth mentioning Theodore (Four).

28.01 SH Yeah, just thinking about that. 28.02 TG Our songs were mostly quite long – packed it with lots of different heavy sections,

etcetera and ahh … 28.08 AM This is another band … 28.10 TG This is another band that me and Simon were in. Simon drummed for it and I was

playing bass. And er … yeah there was never any structure of the song. We knew each different section and we knew where the changes - how the changes happened ((coughs)) but the length of time that things went on – ‘cause some of our songs were over 20 minutes long, so it was .. it was all (ad lib) either live on stage, (that was like) an intricate sort of array of winks and nods and nudges and sort of slights of elbow, to let people know that the build was coming and … it (was) usually sort of relayed through one person to the other. But you know – it worked, (we) always [pulled it off].

28.48 SH ((nodding)) [It did.] 28.50 TG Ahm … yeah, and that was another – a different – a different satisfaction, getting the

same buzz (but) in different ways, you know, just letting it happen as it wanted to. (You) see, when you’re doing that kind of music, just building, you can’t always do it ((holds two palms apart to indicate measured length)) 16 times every time ‘cause the build hasn’t quite built up enough so it’s – just when it feels right you do (it).

29.16 AM Yeah. Yeah. °That makes sense.° 29.18 SH I always found the drums really interesting in the way that they’re not playing any

musical notes, on the one hand, they’ve almost got nothing to do with the song you’re hearing. But … the drum completely sets the scene …


40

29.34 TG Yeh. 29.35 SH … and … it’s – ((to Tim)) you’d notice it in Theodore more, you’d be paying a really

basic drum beat and then you’d just put in a random fill, or the way you built the song up completely changed it. And I really remember in Theodore sometimes I could make - well not that I could make but if I built the song up with certain fillins or beats it would encourage er say the keyboard to start more on his riff, or … yeah, kind of … I’m not (describing myself well. )

30.10 TG [Yeah} (It’s like some of the) things I was drumming (…). You have a certain amount of control over what goes on -

30.18 SH Yeah – yeah. 30.19 TG ,,, which is kind of quite satisfying in a warped sense … 30.21 SH It is, yeah, you can kind of like make someone play heavy, or you can make someone

step back and ((mimes hunching over guitar and playing cautiously)) pick it … and… 30.28 TG I think that’s got a lot to do with our sound actually, the fact that, I –when - through lack

of a drummer, I decided to play the drums. And errm … I think not that – even though it hadn’t been discussed, I think we’d probably more set out to be a bit (heavy) – sort of fast, you know -

30.47 SH Mm. 30.48 TG … more punky-ish, for lack of a better phrase to use but … my drumming was always

gonna be slow … 30.55 SH Oh I think (it was amazing), [but your …] 30.57 TG [… but you had this fast guitar music going on.] 30.00 SH … always with a half time on it. 30.02 TG Yeah a half-time beat, ‘cause .. I wasn’t going to ((moves both arms energetically up and

down in front of chest)) keep that up for very long, [and so …] 30.04 AM ((laughs)) 30.04 SH No. But it sounded amazing [and you …] 30.08 TG [… and that kind of defined how] our sound was born, I guess. 30.13 SH Mmh. 30.15 AM Good! (-hhh) That’s the end of the tape actually. 30.17 SH Oh is it? That’s cool. 30.20 AM But that’s great. 31.23 SH Yeah, I like the double interview, ‘cause I kept thinking of loads of stuff.

Experience and Meaning in Music Performance – Chapter 6 ...€¦ · Experience and Meaning in...

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Transcript of Experience and Meaning in Music Performance – Chapter 6 ...€¦ · Experience and Meaning in...