Downes‐Wiley

AConversationonOpenEducationalResources

DavidWiley

BrighamYoungUniversity

StephenDownes

NationalResearchCouncilCanada

Introduction

CoverphotobyD’ArcyNorman.http://www.flickr.com/photos/dnorman/3812258149/

PartOne‐Providing,SupportingandProducingOERs

Segment1(9:00‐10:30)

Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley1.mp3

• WhatareOERsandWhydowewantThem?What'sOurObjectiveHere?• ProvidingLearningvsSupportingLearning• PerspectivesonOERs:UsersandProducers• OERsCreatedbyProvidersvs.CreatedbyCommunity

Moderator:ChrisLott

Chris:Wehavefoursessionsplannedtoday,sotheroadmapisthatwe'llstartwithproducing,supporting,creatingOERmaterials.Whatdoesthatmean?Whatisit?Talkingabout,thesecondsession,

educationlicensing.We'llthenmoveontoinstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism,andwhatdoesthatwholeproblematicentail?Eachofthesecouldbeafulldaylongeasilyandfinally...

Stephen:Asemesterlong.

Chris:youknow,what'snext‐yeah,awholesemester,awholeclass‐what'snextandwhydowebotherwiththisandwherearewehappy?WhichIthinkthisconversationisuniquelypoisedatthe

beginningofthisimportantconferencefollowingthisconversation,soitwillbeinterestingtoseehowitplaysout.DavidandStephenreallydon'tneedmuchintroductionfromme,butjusttoquicklynote:

StephenDownesisSeniorResearcherfortheNationalResearchCouncilofCanada'sInstituteforInformationTechnology,whichispartoftheLearningandCollaborativeTechnologiesgroup.Ihadto

writethatdown,Icouldn'trememberit.Youprobablyknowhimfromextensivekeynotes,presentations,OLDailyofcourse,whichyoushouldbesubscribedtoorreadingifyou'renotalready,hardtobelieveanyofyouwouldn'tbe.

AndthenwehaveDavidWiley,who'stheAssociateProfessorofInstructionalPsychologyand

TechnologyatBrighamYoungUniversity,ChiefOpennessOfficerofFlatWorldKnowledge,andfounder

oftheOpenHighSchoolofUtah.SoyoucanfindDavidatopencontentdotorg,andyoucanfindStephenDownes,ofcourse,atDownesdotCA.Soifyou'renotreadingthemalreadyyoushouldbe.And

withthatIwillkickitoff,handitovertoStephenandDavidtogetstarted.Again,usethehashtagandTwitterifyouhaveanycommentsorquestionsandwe'llworkthemintotheconversation.That'sit,it'sallyou.

David:Whoismoderatingthisfirstblock?

Chris:Iam.ChrisLott.

David:Verygood.

Chris:Yes.We'llhavedifferentmoderatorssittinginthehotchairoverthere,tryingtoworkinthe

conversation,butyoucanalwayscometomeifyouhavequestionsoranythingonthelogisticsofwhat'shappeningheretoday.

David:Nowwe'resupposedtotalktoeachother..

Stephen:Forhowmanyhours?

Chris:Ninetyminutestostart.

Stephen:Okay,I'llgetstartedhere.Those,thoseofyouwhoknowDavidormyselfknowthatweshareagreatdealincommon,andinparticularadedicationtowardopeneducationalresourcesandopen

educationgenerally,alongwithahostofotherthings.Thoseofyouwhoknowusalsoknowthatforwhoknowshowmanyyearsnowwe'vehadaninterminableseriesofargumentsaboutsomebasicconceptsrelatedtoopenness,opennessineducationandalloftherestofit.

LastMay,duringoneofthose...

David:Youfoundthedate.

Stephen:Ifoundthedate,Iactuallyfoundthepost..andnowI'velostit.Ohwait,hangon.Last,last

May,Mayseventhtobeprecise,Iposted,andIquote:“DavidWileyrespondstocommentsincludingoneofmineandinthecommentsIstrivetofindthefundamentaldisconnectbetweenWiley'sviewand

myown.Hereplieshere,there'salinkthereinmypost,leavingmewithanumberofpointstoanswer.Whatthetwoofusreallyneedtodoofcourseistositdownforadayorthreeandhaveaconversationabouttheseissuesandthenhaveittranscribedandpostitasanopenbook.I'dmakethetime.”

Nowit'sreallyeasytothrowsomethinglikethatoutwhenit'slateandyou'retryingtogetanewsletter

outfortheday.SurprisinglyDavidwritesbackandsays'I'lldoit.'

David:I'mcomingtoCanada,Vancouver'sclosebecausethat'sinCanada,let'sgettogether.

Stephen:TheothersideofCanada.Anyhow.Sothat'sthegenesisofthis,isoneofourinterminabledisputes.We'vesetupthescheduleandthe,thescheduleisavailableonline,ontheopeneducationconferencepages,thewebsite.

Androughlywe'vebrokenthediscussionintofourmajorsegments:thefirstsegmentonproviding,supporting,producingopeneducationalresources;thesecondoneducation,learningandlicensing;the

thirdoninstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism;andthenfourthonwhat'snext,whybother?

Ineedtosetthisupalittlebittoobecause,nottodiscountthepeopleintheaudience,butthisisintendedasaconversationbetweenDavidandmyself.Andwe'vedeliberatelynotpromoteditallovertheplacebecausewedidn'twanttocreatesomesortofspectacle.Andsohereweareinthisbeautiful

courtroom(laughter)withanaudienceandlivestreaming.

Butthatbasicallyisgoingtobetheformatandsowereallydowanttoreiterate,feelfreetoleaveatanypointifyoufindmoreurgentbusinesslikewatchinggrassgroworwhateveroutside,wewon'tfeelatallinsulted.WearegoingtobemonitoringtheTwitterbecauseifyou'resittingthereandhavetogeta

commentoutanddon'twanttobelikecompletelyfedup,wewillbemonitoringitsoyourcomments,oratleastahundredandfortycharactersofit,willbeseenandheard.Thesameforpeoplewhoarewatchingthelivestreaming,bothofyou.

WewillbewatchingtheTwittersoyoucangetcommentsintous.Theremaybetime,shouldthe

conversationlagatanygivenpoint,forthe,forsortofdiscussion.Youknow,wemayatthatpointentertaincommentsandsuggestions,etcetera,fromtheaudience.ButreallythepointhereisforDavidandmyselftoengageina,inasustainedexaminationoftheseissues,togetasdeeplyintothemas

possiblethroughdialogue,andperhapseventoresolvethedifferencesthatwehavebetweeneachother.ThatwouldbeprettycoolandIholdouthopethatthatispossible.

Youknow,despitethefactthatwecomefromverydifferentstartingpointsIthink,andIreallydothinkwecomefromlikecompletelyoppositeendsofthespectrumasastartingpoint,despitethatIdothink

thatthereiscommonground,andindefiningthatcommongroundwecancomeupwithsomesortofideaofwhatthewholeconceptofopeneducationalresourceslookslike.

Thefirstitemontheagendathereforeis:whatareopeneducationalresourcesandwhydowewant

them?What'sourobjectivehere?Ithinkthat'sprobablyagoodplacetostartbecauseeventhereIthinkwemaybecomingfromadifferentplace,andmypresumptionrightoffthebat,you'recomingfromauniversitybackground,you'reaworkingacademic,aprofessor;me,althoughIhaveanacademic

background,I'mnotinauniversitynow,I'mthinkingoutsidetheuniversitycontext,andindeedwhathappensoutsidetheuniversitycontextisveryimportanttome.ButI'llturnitovertoyounowbecauseI'vetalkedmytwominutes.Andwhatdoyouthink?Whatis,whatareweupto?

David:LetmestartbysayingthatIdothinkthatwehaveexactlythesamegoal,whichIthinkiswhat

producesthecommonrespectthatwehaveandourwillingnesstositdown,eventhoughwearguedforyearsandyears,becausewearetryingtogetatthesamething,Ithink,whichiseitherincreasedoruniversalaccesstoeducationalopportunityforpeople.Andeventhoughwecomefromdifferent

trajectoriestowardit,that'ssomethingwebothcarereallypassionatelyabout.Sothat'swhatmakesitinterestingtome,becausehowmanydifferenttotallycontradictorysetsof,youknow,tacticscanyouuseandstillarriveatthesamegoal?

Sowhatisitwe'reupto?Thereisadebateaboutwhetheraccesstoeducationalopportunityisreallysufficientornot,peoplelikeKatarinaTomasevski,whopassedawaylastyearortheyearbefore

(October4,2006–ed1),whodidrighttoeducation.org,reallyarguedagainstaccessasaconstruct,andreallywantedtoseemandates.Accesstoprimaryeducation,forexample,isn'tgoodenough,wehavetomandateitandwehavetorequireit.

AndinmybrainI'veneverbeenabletogetallthewaytothemandate,maybeIwilleventually.Ijust

thought“weneedtoprovideaccess,provideoptions,provideopportunitiesforpeople,andthenastheychoosetotakeadvantageofittheywill,andiftheydon't,theywon't,andI'mnotgoingtomeddleinwhethertheyshouldhavetoornot.”ButIthink,likeyousay,IthinkIthinkmoreabouthigher

educationandKatarinawastalkingmoreaboutprimaryschoolone,andsecondaryschoolandthingslikethat.

Tomewhatitiswe'reaboutiswe'retryingtogeteducationalopportunityinfrontofpeoplethat,forwhateverreason,didn'thaveitbefore.AndIthinkthedistanceeducationtraditionispeoplewhoare

time‐boundorplace‐bound.Ithink,andIguesswhatyou'dcallanopenuniversitytraditionhastodowithtime‐boundandplace‐boundandmaybeevenqualification‐bound,ifwecancallitthat,right?AndIknowyouhavethisherefromtheOpenUniversitySummer,youknow,theonlyrequirement'syou

havetobeoveracertainageandifyou,youknow,youmeetthatcriteriathenyougetin.Sothere'splace‐bound,there'stime‐bound,there'sprerequisite‐bound,andIthinkwhatwe'retryingtoaddontopofthatwithopeneducationismaybeanideaofbeingfinancially‐boundsomehow.

Youknow,therearepeoplethatdohavethetimeandpeoplethatreallywouldliketoincreasetheir

education,whetherit'sformallyintermsofcredentialsortheyjustwanttopickupadditionalskills,buttheycan'tafforditorit'snotavailabletotheminawaythattheycanunderstand,becausemaybeit's

onlyavailableinEnglishorit'sonlyavailableinMandarinorsomething,theyreallyneedsomebodytogoandlocaliseitforthemtobeabletouseit.But,butIthinkwhatwe'reaboutistryingtoincreaseopportunity.

Stephen:Okay.Ithink,okay,toacertaindegreeI'mgoingtoagreewiththat,andsoawaywego.

First,let's,let'sremoveoneissueoffthetable,Ithinkwherewewillfindsomeagreement,andthisis

theideaofmandate.Assoonaswegetintothetopicofmandates‐mandatedthis,mandatedthat‐wemoveintoanareathatI'mnotcomfortablewith.And,andIwillincludeinthatprimaryeducation,secondaryeducation,aswellaspostsecondaryeducation.

Itmayseemirrationaltosay“well,howcanyounothaveamandateforprimaryeducation?”Idon't

believeit'sirrational.Ithinkifweanalysewhatismeantbyamandateforprimaryeducation,whatisreallymeantisnotthatchildrenofprimaryschoolagebecomeeducated,becauseit'simpossiblenottodothat.Theywillbecomeeducated,that'sbecausetheyareliving,breathing,learningmachines,thisis

whatchildrendo,probablybetterthananythingelseintheuniverse.

1‐http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/216723/116055195197.htm

Themandatefocusesonwhatsortofthingstheyoughttolearn,somesortofcommoncoreorcommoncurriculum.It'sthis,inacertainsense,anattempttocreateconformitywithacertainperspectiveon

what,quote,tobeeducated,unquote,means.AndI'mnotcomfortablewiththat.Ithinkitistrueprobablythattherewerethingsthatmostifnoteverychildrenshouldlearn,but,youknow,IoftenechotheremarksofSeymourPapertwhenquestionedonthesubjectoffoundations:“ifsomethingisindeed

foundationalthentheneedforitwillcomeupintheprocessofwhateverlearning...'Or,sorry,'intheprocessofwhateverdoingthechildmayhaveinmind.”2

David:Sowecanputmandate...

Stephen:Wecanputmandatetotheside.

David:Weagree.

Stephen:Weagreeonthefirstpoint.

David:See,thatonlytooktenminutes.

Stephen:Yeah.Well,yeah,butIthinkwe'vejusthitapointwherelikeninetypercentofthepeoplelisteningtousmaydisagree,so...Butnonetheless,butIthinkthere'sacrucialpointthatneedstobe

underscoredasaconsequenceofthisfirstpoint,andthatisopeneducationentailschoice;it'snotsimplycreatingopportunities,it'salsocreatingcapacities,creatingempowerment.Tohaveopeneducationmeansthatapersonisabletochoosethecourseoftheirownlearning.

And,andIthinkthatisgoingtobecertainlyoneofthemajorthemesI'llreturntooverandoverand

overaswegothroughtheday.Whatisanaccess,whatisaccesstoaneducationopportunity?Whatisaccesstoaneducation?Youknow,becausewhenyoutalkaboutit,youtalkaboutcredentials,youtalkaboutskills,youknow,again,IkindofwanttobracketthecredentialingalthoughIknowhowimportant

thecredentialingis.

David:Forthetimebeing.

Stephen:Forthetimebeing.

David:Itmaynotbeimportantinthelongterm,butIexpectwe'llgettothat.

Stephen:Andsimilarly,youknow,skills,youknow,the,theideathatapersonseeksaneducationinordertoobtainacredentialorinordertoobtainaskillisarepresentationthatwehaveofitbecausewe

haveasystemthatisbasedaroundcredentialsandskills,moreandmoresoaswemoveintotheeraofcompetenceframeworksandthingslikethat.But,again,Idon'tthinkthatpeopleenterintoeducationinordertogetthosethings,thosethingsaresteppingstonestothethingsthattheyreallywant.Andwhat

theyreallywantofcoursevariesfrompersontopersontoperson,butitissomethinglike,ifyouwill,thegoodlife,whateverthatis.Anddifferentpeoplehavedifferent,differentdefinitionsofwhatthe

2http://www.downes.ca/post/41

goodlifeis.Butthey'retryingtoleadtheirlives,they'retryingtomaketheirwayintheworldto,todothethingsthattheywanttodothrough,asMillsays,pursuetheirowngoodintheirownway.

AndIthinkthat,certainlythatunderliesmyownphilosophyofeducation:educationisn'tabout

acquiringskillstome,educationisn'taboutobtainingcredentials,itisn'tevenaboutthecontentofthateducation,educationisaboutpursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.It'saboutempowerment,aboutbeingabletosetthedirectionofone'sownlife.Andhere,asyouknow,I'mechoing,well,people

likeFreireand,Illichandtherest.That'snotanewperspectivebyanymeans.So...

David:Sowhileyoucatchyourbreath,Iwouldn'tdisagreewithanyofwhatyou'vejustsaid.IguessIwouldsaythatmypersonalemphasis,withformaleducationbeingsuchabigsystem,withittouchingandimpactingsomanypeople,andbeingsointegralandtosomany,youknow,everythingfrom

employmenttowhatever,whileIagreewithwhatyousaidmypersonalfocusisonmoreformal,youknow,kindsofeducation.Becauseitseemstobeindesperateneedofsomekindofhelporreformorsupportorsomething.

Andso,andI'msureithelps,likeyousaid,thatI'mafacultymemberworkinginsideofinstitutions,so

that'swheremybrainspendsmostofitstime.But,butIwouldn'tdisagreewithyouthatthe,theendofeducationis,ispursuingthegoodlife,whateverthatmeanstoyou.Foralotofpeoplethatmeanstheywanttobeemployedatsomepart,somepoint,sotheycanfeedtheirfamilyanddocertainthings.And

ifemploymentrequiresacredential,thenyoustartbackchainingfromthegoodlifeand,foralotofpeopleatsomepoint,theytouchformaleducationthatway.

Stephen:Ateachstepinthebackchainthough,youneedtobeclear,thesearen'tinherentconstraintsthatareafactofnature,thesearethingsthatwecreate.

David:Ohabsolutely.

Stephen:Youknow,thefactthatyouneedtoobtainemploymentinordertosustainyourselfisanartificeofsociety;it'sthewaywe'vebuiltsocietyandnotafactofnature.Andsowecouldconceiveatleast‐IsawatleastonepersonwithaMaoT‐shirtintheaudience‐conceiveofaworldinwhichthatis

notnecessarilythecase.Buttore‐frameaweebit,doyouthinkthatprovidingpeopleaccesstotheuniversityisthesameasprovidingaccesstoopeneducation?

David:Wellifyou'redrawingaVenndiagramobviouslythere's,openeducationisthebigbubbleandthekindsofopeneducationmaterialsyouproduceinsidetheuniversityareasmallerbubbleinsidethe,

thebigbubble.Thereareallkindsof,takeWikipediaforexample,allkindsoflarge,veryvaluableresourcesthatyoucanuseeducationally,andherewegetbacktothedefinitionofwhat,whataneducationalresourceis,allkindsofthingswouldbeusefulinthiswaythatdon'tcomeoutofthe

university.Butjustbecauseit'struedoesn'tmeanthattheuniversityhasnothingtoaddofvaluetothebodyofthingsthatareoutthere.

Stephen:WellI'mnotgoingtocharacterisemypositionassayingthatuniversitieshavenothingtoadd,thatwouldbekindofamisrepresentation,but,butlet'sbeclearaboutwhatuniversitiesareaddingand

whatthey'renotadding.

AndGeorgeSiemens,lastyearwhenwedidourConnectivismcourse3,Ithoughtdrewitoutreallynicelybyidentifyingthreemajoraspectsofopenness,right?There'stheopencontentisthefirstthing,whateverthatmaybe,andwe'llcomebacktothat.Thenthere'stheopendelivery.And,again,thatmay

beanynumberofthings,but,butit's,youknow,soI'lljustusetheworddeliveryfornowandleavethedefinitiontilllaterifitcomesup.Andthenthethirdthingisopenaccreditationorevaluationorassessment,etcetera.

Now,whichofthosedoestheuniversityprovide,whichofthosethree?Andwhichofthosethreeisit

necessaryfortheuniversitytoprovide,andwhichifanyofthosethreecouldwedowithout?Youknow,thecontent,andweliveintheworldoftheInternetnowandwecanseethatcontentcanbeproducedinsidetheuniversity,contentcanbeproducedoutsidetheuniversity.Soclearlywecanenvisionaworld

withouttheuniversityandstillhavethecontent.Similarly,Iwouldsaywithdeliveryit'slessobvious,but,youknow,especiallyonceourconceptofdelivery...JustwaitforDavetoremountthemicrophone.

David:Lookslikeasmallfirtreehere.

Stephen:Notthatsmallafirtree.Youknow,youknow,asweexpandourconceptofwhatdeliveryis,youknow,Imeanitusedtobedeliveryofaneducationwassomeguystandinginfrontoftheroom

lecturing,that'sdelivery.

David:Nowit'stwoguys.

Stephen:Nowit'stwoguys.Sowe'retwiceasgoodnow.

David:Exactly.

Stephen:Butweexpectthere'sstillmore.Butofcourse,youknow,Imeanlearningisbecomingmoreofacommunity.Whenwestartedthatcourse,GeorgeandI,theConnectivismcourse,wewerethinkingof

modelsforlearning,thefirstmodelthatsprungtomymindinterestingly,welltomeanyways,wastheoldCambridgemodel,theoldOxfordmodel,whereinfactthestudentsmanagedtheirownlearning,theywouldformlearningclubsorlearningsocieties.4Andprofessorswouldinteractwiththembut

typicallyonapersonalbasis.Andacourse,quoteunquote,was,wasacourseoflectures.Ifaprofessorthoughthe,anditwasalwayshealmost,hadsomethingtosayhewouldgiveacourseoflecturesor,ifchallengedbyoneofthesestudentclubs,wouldgiveacourseoflectures.

Butitwasn'tallstructuredandflakedandformed.Andtheideawasthatthestudents,toalargedegree,

wouldorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.Andwe'reseeingmoreandmoreofthatonlinenow,wherepeopleorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.

3http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/4http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/?p=49

Youmayrememberthe,theOpenEdconferencethatIattendedin,inUtahanumberofyearsago.ErinBrewer'stalk,talkingabouttheYahoo,groupsandbeekeepers5andpeopleorganisingtheirown

learningintheseYahoogroups,wastheonethatstuckinmymind.Idon'tknowwhybutitdid.Sowecanconceiveofawayforlearningtohappenwithoutithappeningintheuniversity.

David:Absolutely.

Stephen:Sothatleavesuswiththeonlyessentialfunctionofuniversitiesasbeingthemarking,thecredentials.Andthat's,anditseemstomeandI'veoftenmadethepoint,ifyouremovethemonopoly

thatuniversitieshaveoncredentials,theuniversitysystemwouldbasicallycrashandburn,becausepeoplewouldn'tseethevalueinpayingtensofthousands,hundredsofthousandsofdollarsforacredentialwhentheycouldgetonefromMcCredentials.

David:Right.Andsoifyoulookinthetechnicalareas‐MicrosoftCertification,CiscoCertification,Red

HatCertification,whateveritis‐youknow,ifyou're,ifyou'rehiringapersontorunandsecureyournetworkandyou'vegotsomebodywithaBSincomputerscienceandsomebodywithacertificationintheplatformthatyou'rerunningyournetworkon,that'snotevenachoice,you'regoingtotakethe

credentialpersontentimesoutoftenoverthepersonwiththeBSincomputerscience,whatever.

SoIagreewithyourpointbutIthinkit'sactuallyfurtheralongthanyoujuststated.Ithinktheuniversities'monopolyonthecredentialisalreadywellunderattackandthatfront'sbeencompletelybreachedincertainareas,liketechnicalones.IdothinkthingslikeWesternGovernorsUniversityarea

reallyinterestingexampleof,here'sacompletelyaccreditedonlineuniversitythatoffersnocourseswhatsoever,allthattheyofferareassessments.

Isthatastatementontheirpartthatthey'vefiguredoutthatthat'swheretherealvalue,youknow,intheuniversityis?Youknow,Idon'tknow,wouldbe,maybewegetBobonthephoneorsomethingand,

andaskhimbut...

Stephen:IsBobonlinehere?

David:Theydon'tcarewhereyoulearnedit,theydon'tcarehowyoulearnedit,theydon'tcareifyouwerebornknowingitsomehowortookitatMITopencoursewareorlearneditfromWikipediaor

whatever.Whenyoushowup,ifyoucandemonstratethatyouknowitthenthey'llcredentialyou.

Stephen:You’vegottopaythem.

David:Youpaythemforthecredentialingservice,yes.But,butthey'reanaccrediteduniversitythatoffersnocourses,theyonlyofferassessments.Andsothatseemstome,youknow,thatphenomenaplusthephenomenaofthetechnicalcertificationsseemstometosaythatthere'salotalready

happeningthere.AndI,Iagreewithwhatyou're,whatyou'resayingtheretoo.

5http://www.downes.ca/post/25

Stephen:Okay,wellgiventhatWesternGovernorsUniversityexists,whyisanyonepayingwhoknowshowmuchforuniversity?

David:Socomingbacktoyourcommentabouttheselforganisinggroupsversusthefacultymember

whoimposesthestructureanddoestheseotherthings.Charlie(Raguwith?),who'saneducationaltheoristinmyworld,becausewe'rebotheducatorsbutwelivein(talkingtogether)fairlydifferentworlds,Charlie'soneoftheoutsidereadersonmydissertationandhemadeaninterestingcomment

that'sstuckwithme,sayingthat:“youknow,youcancutthegrassinyourfrontyardwithapairofscissors,youcancutthegrassinthefrontyardwithtweezers.”

Itturnsouttherearemoreefficientwaystodothingsandlessefficientwaystodothings.Andsometimesyoucareaboutefficiencyandothertimesyoudon'tcareaboutefficiency,sometimesit's

aboutthewalkthroughtheparkandtakingyourtimeandsmellingtherosesandjusthavingthatexperience,andthereareothertimesyoujust,youknow,maybesomebodylovestocutgrass.Therearesomethingsthatyoujustwanttogetdoneasfastasyoucangetthemdoneandasefficientlyasyou

can.

AndIthinkthattheparallelthereisontheonehandifyou'reinyourlearningexperienceforthesakeoflearning,andsomepeoplewhoareinuniversityalsohavetheseoutsidethingsthattheyactuallydojustbecausetheycareaboutlearningandtheyenjoyitasahobbyorbookcluborwhatever,youknow,then

youspendthetimeandyougetintotheflavourandtherichnessandyouwanttosavouritand,youknow,milkitforallit'sgot.

Butontheotherhandifyoujustneedacredentialsothatyoucanbeemployed,wellyoumightwantthiskindof,theruthlessefficiencyofMontyPython'sSpanishInquisition,right?Justasfastaspossible,

asefficientlyaspossible,getmethroughand,andifyoudon'tknowthedomainhavingsomeoneelsesetupastructureandsetupapaththat'srelativelyfreeofobstaclesandthingslikethatisusefulfor

you,toincreasetheefficiencyofthat,youknow,trajectorythroughthere.

SoIthinkthere'sroomforbothandIthinkit'sreallyaquestionofwhat'syourendgoal?Areyoulookingforthemostefficientpathpossiblethrough,eitherthroughasetoflearningexperiencesorapathtoacredentialorwhateverthatis?Andifyouwantthatefficiencythenyouprobablyneedsomebodyto

helpyouputthattogetherthatknowsmorethanyoudoaboutit,becauseifyouknewenoughaboutittostructureitinamaximallyeffectivewayyouprobablywouldn'tneedtolearnalotaboutthedomain.Orisitsomethingthatyoujustwanttospendsometimeinandspendsometimewithandabsorbmore

about?

AndsoIthinkuniversitiesarereallygoodforthiskindofhighlystructured,veryefficient,youknow,“here'showyoudoit,here'sthesupport,here'swhatever.”AndIdon'tthinkuniversitiesareparticularlygoodplacestospendalotoftimereallysoakingupalot,youknow,that's,that'ssomething

thatyouwoulddooutsideofthescheduleandthepaceandthewhatever,theuniversitywhichseemstobeaboutefficiency,andsometimesyouwantthatandsometimesyoudon'tIguessishowI'drespond.

Stephen:SeeI'm,I'mstill...Tome,collectingahundredthousanddollarstopayforauniversityeducationseemstobeabouttheleastefficientwayofgoingaboutdoingit.So,andthat's,that'sthe

thingthatsortofsticksinmymind.I'mpuzzledathowyoucanhaveWesternGovernorsUniversity,whichwillaccredit,orcredentialpeople,presumablyforanominalfee,Idon'tknowwhatthefeesareso...

David:It'ssignificantlylowerthan...

Stephen:Yeah.Andyetthere'sallthisactivityintheotherspace.ButIthinkthat's,that'sprobablyalso

partofwhatwe'retalkingabouttoo,is,youknow,ontheonehandyouhavethelowcost,freeoptionwhichispresumedtobebarebones,andontheotherhandyouhave...

(Phonerings)

David:Firstoneoftheday.

Stephen:Allright,youshouldgivethemaprize.Thehighcostoption.And,youknow,wehavethis,youknow,ifIhadadegreefromWesternGovernorsandyouhadadegreefromHarvard,whogetsthejob?

Youknow,soiftheobjectiveiscredentialingandiftheobjectofcredentialingistogetajob,thenitseemstomethattheWesternGovernorsUniversityapproachisgoingtobelesseffectivethantheHarvardapproach,andthatistheeffectivenessthatpeoplearebuying.

David:Wellinamarketthat'sverycompetitivethatwouldbetrue,buttakeamarketliketeacher

educationinastateorregionthatisjuststarvedforqualifiedteachers,isemployingteacherspossiblyevenoutsidethelawbecauseatleastthey'rewillingtocomeinandwork,buttheydon'thavethecredentialthattechnicallythey'rerequiredtohave.Now,ifinsteadofsendingthemthroughsixtyhours

ofschool,ifwecanjustgivethemsomeassessmentstoletthemdemonstratethatcredential,sothatlegallynowtheycanhavethisjobofbeingateacher,then,thenthat'sareallyusefulthingtobeableto

do,right?AndtheWesternGovernorscredentialisjustasgoodasanyothercredentialbecauseI'mnotcompetingwith,youknow,athousandotherpeopleforthisoneposition.I'minapositionwherethelawsaysIhavetohaveacertainpieceofpapertowork,there'snobodyinthis,youknow,ormaybe

nursing,there'snotenoughpeopleinthisspacebutyouhavetohaveadegree,sowhat'sthemostefficientpaththeycandofromhere?Dothey,orsothatIcandothatthingIwanttodo,thatpeoplewantmetodo,butthelawsaysI,nowIhavetohavethiscredentialbeforeIcanpractice.

Stephen:Ithinkwecantakeoutof,we'lltakeoutofthisfornow,Ithink,the,theassessmentpartofthis

andIthinkwecantaketheassessmentpartandputittooneside.

David:Yeah,becauseIthinkit'sonthescheduleforlateranyway.

Stephen:Isit?Idon'tknow.

David:Ithinkthat'sthethirdhour.

Stephen:Thirdhour,hourthree,yeah.

David:Ifyou'regoingtochangetopicsletmejustgetonemorethingin,becauseyousaidearlierthatopeneducationmeanschoicetoyou,andIwantedtocomebacktothat,andasonlyanacademiccanI

wanttotakefiveminutestoagree.Idon'tknowif,there'sa,there'sabookabout,abooktoteachyoutheRubyprogramminglanguagecalledWhy'sPoignantGuidetoRuby6,doyouknowthisbook?

Stephen:I'vereadit7.

David:Okay.So...AndWhyisW‐H‐Y,forthoseofyoufollowingonathome,“Whytheluckystiff.”IfyoutooktenbooksofftheshelfatBordersthatwerebooksaboutteachingyourselftowriteinRuby,what

you'dfindisifyoutorethecoversoffofthemyoucouldn'ttellanydifferencebetweenthematall.They'retheexampleshavenoflavour,they're...Andbasicallywhat'shappeninghereisyou'vegotabookthatyouwanttoaddresstoasbroadanaudienceaspossible,soyoutakeouteveryexample,

every,anythingthatwouldmakeitfeellikeitwasreallytargetedatacertaingroup,youtakeallofthoseinteresting,useful,cultural,contextualthingsoutandyouleavebasicallywhatlookslikeanencyclopaedia,somethingthat'scompletelyde‐contextualised,sothatwhenapersonpicksitupthey

don'tseeanythingthatoffendsthemandmakesthemthink“thisbookisn'twrittenforme,it'swrittenforsomeoneelse.”Sotodothatyouhavetomakeitasblandashumanlypossible.

Tome,openeducationisaboutchoicebecausenowIcanwritesomethingfulloflocalflavour,fulloflocalcontent,reallytargetitatmykidsortargetitatwhatevergroupIwantittobetargetedat,

somethinglikeWhy'sPoignant...YoupickupWhy'sPoignantGuide,youknowwithinthirtysecondswhetherthisisabookthat'sforyouornot,andifit,ifyoulikechunkybaconthenthat'sabook,youknow,that'sforyou.Ifcartoonfoxesmakeyouangrythenyoudon'twanttolearnRubyfromWhy's

PoignantGuide.But,butthetenbooksontheshelfatBordersparadeaschoicewheninfactthere'snomeaningfuldifferencebetweenanyofthem,exceptifyoulikeanimalsonthefront,youknow,youbuy

theO'Reillyoneorwhatever.ButwhenthingsareopenyoucanhavesomethinglikeWhy'sPoignantGuide,notthatit,Idon'twanttomake,saythatit'sanexampleofthebesteducationever.

Stephen:No,butit'sagoodexample.

David:Butitrepresentsachoice,becauseit'ssodifferentfromeverythingelseitactuallyisameaningfulchoicefromtheothertenbooksontheshelf.Andwhenmaterialismadeopenlyyoucanputallthat

flavourandpersonalityandstuffinthere,andthenwhenIshareityoucanpickitupandsay,youknow,“thisisgreat,theexamplesdon'tquiteworkforme,butIhavepermissiontochangethemsothattheymeetmyneeds,”right?Andsoit'stheabilitytoincludethatflavourandcontextandculture,butknow

thatsomeonethat'snotinyourtargetgroupcanstilltakeitandmakesomethingusefuloutofitanduseit,thatistheinterestingpartofchoiceinopeneducationtome,becausewecanprovideaseriesofthingsthatactuallyaremeaningfulchoicesfromeachother,andthenyoucantakethemanddowhat

6http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant‐guide/7http://www.downes.ca/cgi‐bin/page.cgi?post=31620

youwanttoitattheendoftheday.IthinkWhy'sPoignantGuideis,isagreatexample,notthe,maybenotthebestonebutthat'soneofthethingsthat'smostexcitingabout,tome,onthechoiceside.

Stephen:Now,oneofthethingsthatoccurredtomeasyousaythatisthe,the,theveryfactthatwe

havethesecommercialRubybooks,thisbook,thisbook,youknow,makessomethinglikeWhy'slesslikelytohappenbecause,youknow,ittakesalotofworktoproduceaguidetoRubyoraguidetoanything,andpeoplearelesslikelytodoitwhentheredoesn'tseemtobeaneedtodoit.

David:Orafinancialincentive,isthat,isthatwhereyou'regoingorareyouconsidering...

Stephen:Wellno,because,because,becausethemorenicheyourmarketisgoingtobe,whichiswhere

thischoicecomesfrom,thelessyourfinancialincentiveisgoingtobeinanycase,right?Youknow,youcan'tmakealivingwritingforleft‐handedalbinos,it'sjust,there'snotenoughofamarketthere,right?Andindeedassoonasyoubringinthecommercialelement,assoonasyoubringintheideaoffinancial

incentives,you'repushing,youcreateasystemwhichhasasoneofitsbasicimpulsiveforcesapushtowardthatkindofblandtextbookthat'swrittenforeveryone,becausethat'stheonethatisgoingtosellthemost.And,andsoyougettheseblandtextbooksandtheseblandtextbooks,because,you

know,nowthey'resubsidisedbycommercialsalestheyexist,theytakeupthespaceinthebookshelf.AnditreallytakessomeonespecialtocomealongandwriteaWhy'sbecause,youknow,themarketissaturated,themarketissaturatedwithbland,notrealchoiceoptions.Andsothevery,thevery

existenceofthefinancialmotivetocreateitselfarguesagainstthepossibilityofchoice.

David:Andsointheearlydaysofthefieldwhenpeoplesaid“ohwe'lljustgooutandwe'llfund,youknow,thebestalgebracourseintheworldandwe'llfundthebestgeometryandthebestAmericanliteratureandwhatever,”thenitjustmakesyouwanttoputyourheadthroughawallandsay“no,we

needahundredalgebracoursesorweneedathousandalgebracourses,andeachoneofthemneedstobetargetedatarealgroupandtheyneedtoactuallybemeaningfullydifferentfromeachother,and

whenIlookatthemIwanttobeable...WhenIseetheonethat'sformeIwanttorecogniseitwhenIseeit.”Not,youknow,one,certainlynotone,andnottenthataretotalclonesofeachother,thatarenotmeaningfullydifferent.

Stephen:Yeah.Theclone,yeah,theclonecourses,there'snopointtothem,itbecomesallabout

brandingandmarketingwhenit'stheclonecourse.

I'mnotsure.Yousaytenalgebracourses.I'mnotevensureweneedtenalgebracoursesinthesensethat,youknow,eventhesamenessinherentinthedescription'algebracourses'istoomuchofacloning.But,but,again,that'sprobablytakingusoffintoanotherdigressionbecause,wellbecausewe...

AnotherofthethingsthatDavidandIhavedisagreedaboutovertheyearsisthenatureoflearning

objects.

David:Oh,thattookalmostanhour.

Stephen:Yeah.Well,but...

David:Butit'susefulbecausetalkingaboutopeneducationalresources,andtalkaboutduckingabulletorgettingoutofthequestionwithoutreallyansweringit,Ithinkagoodwayofdescribingopen

educationalresourcesis,oraopeneducationalresource,aneducationalresource,isalearningobjectplusanopenlicense.

Stephen:Yeah,that'sonewayoftalkingaboutit.

David:AndnowI'vedefinedatermwithanothertermthatnooneknowswhatitmeanseither.

Stephen:Well,justtobringusfullcircle,myowndefinitionoflearningobjectisanythingthatcanbeusedforlearning.Whichbringsuscompletelyfullcirclebacktowherewestartedbecausebythat

definitionanything,utterlyanything,canbealearningobjectprovidedthatsomewhere,sometime,someonehasinfactusedit.Andindeedwecangowiththemobileversionofthatdefinition“hasthepotentialtobeused.”

Butitdoesraisethis,thispicture.Wethinkoflearningcontent,wehavethispictureinourmind,it

needstobecourses,itneedstobetextbooks,itneedstobe,youknow,organisedandsetup,andIdon'tthinkso,andIdon'tthinkthatyouthinksoeither.Ithinkthatyoucanliveinaworldwhereapictureofaduckisalearningobject,properlysocalled,andwhereapictureofaduckisanopen

educationalresource.

Andgiventhatthereare,Icancheck,butprobablytensofthousandsoffreelylicensedpicturesofaduckonline,wedon'tinfacthaveashortageofopeneducationalresources.Sotheproblemisn'tthat.Theproblemissomethingelse.

Andpartofmyargumentistheproblemisthestructuresthatwehaveinplace,includinguniversities,

thatpreventusfromtakingthepictureofaduckandinsomewayforourselvesassembling,ifyouwill,ourowneducation.Andtherearethesebarriersallthewaydowntheline,fromtheverydefinitionof

openeducationalresourcesandlearningobjects.

Youknow,onmymorecynicaldays,andI'manticipatingsomeoftheargumentthatwillcomeuplater,onmymorecynicaldaysIthinkthattheconceptoflearningobject,withitseightysevenfieldsinthelearningobjectmetadataandcontactpackagingandallofthat,wasdeliberatelydesignedinorderto

preventtherebeingopeneducationalresources,becauseitbecomessohardtocreatethemandtomountthemandtousethem.Andreallyallweneededwerepicturesofducks.

Andifwehadsetupoursystemdifferently,wherewecreatedsystemsthatempoweredandenabledlearnersinsteadof,youknow,runningthemthroughthecattlechute,wecouldhavehadbynowa

mechanismwherepeoplecantakethesepicturesofducks,picturesofcowsand,youknow,and,withtheircommunities,createtheirownlearning.SowhenIlookatwhatarewetryingtodoinopeneducationalresources,andit'slikethatOECDconferencewewereatinMalmo8,where...

8http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/12/46/36162143.pdf

David:Don'teverconveneaconferenceinMalmoinFebruaryagain,please.

Stephen:Yeah,thatwaskindofamistake,wasn'tit?Andoneofthequestionsthatcameupwas,youknow,whatneedstobedoneinordertosupportopeneducationalresources?ThepositionIadvanced

thereandIcontinuetoadvancehereis:getoutoftheway.Youknow,it'snotaquestionofprovidingthings,it'saquestionoftakingawaybarriers,takingawayrestrictions.Andthatrunsinmymindcompletelycountertoanythingthatresemblesacommercialmarketplaceforlearningmaterials.

David:Iwaswithyourighttothatlastphrase,althoughIthinkwearegoingtouncoveradeeper

disagreementhere,usefully.Soletmeback‐trackforasecondtoworkuptoit.

Idoimagineaworldinwhichapictureofaduckisalearningobjectandanopeneducationalresource.ButIwouldalsosaythatacoursecouldbealearningobject‐fullystructured,syllabus,exams,thewholeshebang‐andthatthatfullcoursecouldalsobeanopeneducationalresource.Andthatthereis,

dependingonthenuanceyouwanttogivetotheconversation(Ihaveahunchwhichdirectionwe'llgo),youcouldrefertoiteitherasanecologyorasamarket.

Buttherearesomepeople,comingbacktothepointImadeearlier,andI'lltrynottodothattoooften,therearesomepeoplethatwantastructured,efficientpaththroughthe...Infact,theydon'twanttobe

runthroughthechutelikecattlebecausethatimpliesothercows.“GetoutofthewayandletmerunasfastasIcandownthispath.”Therearepeoplethatwantthat,andtherearepeoplethatwanttheother.

Andsoweneed,dependingonwhetheryouwanttocallitamarketwithseveraldifferentthingscompetingwitheachother,orjustanecologywheretherearedifferentalternativesthatallkindof

coexist,youneedthepictureofaduckandyouneedwhatever,butyoualso,toservethepersonthatwantsthemoreefficientpath,youwantthecourse.

Sotome,whenyoutalkaboutalearningobjectoranopeneducationalresource,andyousaid,yousaid

alearningobjectisany,anyresourceIcanusetolearn,orsomethinglikethat,orthatIcouldusetolearninthebroaderdefinition.

ThisisoneplacewherewehavedisagreedbecauseI'vealwaysinsertedtheword'digital'intothatdefinition,becausethethingthatstartedmeonthisjourney,partofwhereIcomefrom,isthis

realisationthatwhenaresourceisdigital,thatbandwidthandRAMoverlooked,youknow,basicallyanunlimitednumberofpeoplecanallusethatresourceatthesametime.Andthereisnoprintingcostandwarehousingcostanddistributioncostandreceivingcostandwhateverelse;it's,it'ssomethingthatI

canwriteonceandthatIcancopybasicallyforfree,giveawaybasicallyforfree,andabunchofpeoplecanuseitbasicallyforfree.

Andthatnon‐rivalrousnatureofthedigitalresourceissomething,tome,thatseemsimportanttoenablelargescale,lowcostornocost,access.SowhenLTSChadthisdefinitionoflearningobjectsthat

includedpeopleandplacesandhistoricaleventsliketheWarof1812‐theeventwasalearningobject,orJoanofArc,theperson,isalearningobject‐itmademealittlecrazybecauseIthoughtwe'regetting

awayfromthespecialthingthatenabledthelargescale,lowcostdistributionthatIthinkis,Ithoughtwaswhatwewereafter.

Sothatdigitalpiecewas...Nowitdoesn'tmeanthatyoucan'ttakedigitalandthendomoreofaprint

ondemandordo,ordodifferentthingswithitinordertogetittothepeoplethatneedit.Butintermsoffreecopy,freedistribution,freewhatever,itbeingdigitalhasbeenimportanttomefromthe,fromthebeginning,asAnya,Anyawroteaboutthestoryofthecalculatortheotherday.

Stephen:Okay,thenletmejuststopyouhere.Ontheonehandyousayafullcoursecanbeanopen

educationalresource,ontheotherhandyousayithastobedigital.Soyou'resayingafullcoursecanbedigital?

David:Ooh,youmayhavecaughtme,letmethink.Yeah,sobyfullcourseIguesswhatImeanttosaywasthefull...WhatdidImeantosay?Certainlythefullcollectionofcontentthatyouuseforthecourse,

obviously.Butincreasingly,mostorallofthehumaninteractionyouhavearoundthatcontentcanbedigitalaswell.ButIdon'tknow,I'mnotsurehowfarIwanttogodownthatpath.WhenIsaidit,Iwastalkingaboutthefullcontentofthecourse.

Stephen:Yeah,yeah,you'vegottomeansomethinglikeacoursepackage,andtherearedifferentways

ofstructuringthesethings,right?

David:WhichcouldbeapictureofaduckandapictureofacowthatsomeotherpersonthathassomeexpertiseinfarmanimalhusbandryhasfoundandputtogetherinastructuredwayformesothatIdidn'thavetospendmytimegoingandfindingthosethings.Atthebottomitmaybethesamevery

looselyknitcollectionofresources,it'sjustthatbecause,ifIcareaboutefficiency,maybeI'mwillingtopaysomeoneelsetofindthemandstructurethemformeinsteadofmehavingtodoitmyself.

Stephen:Yeah.I'mgoingto‐that'sanotherthing,you'vehitthispointafewtimes,thecoursebeingthe

mostefficient.

David:Notthemostefficient,moreefficientthanmeflounderingaboutinadomainIknownothingabout.

Stephen:Whatwouldbethemostefficientthen?

David:Idon'tknowwhatwouldbethemostefficient.

Stephen:Well,Imeanbecauseyou'retheone,itseemstome,who'sbeensayingthecourseisthemostefficient,andthenyousaymoreefficientthanflounderingaround.Well,thoseclearlyaren'ttheonly

twochoices.

David:No,absolutelynot.

Stephen:Okay.Moreefficient,well...Eventhere,youknow,efficiencyisaratioofobtainingsomesortofendorobjectivedividedbycost,okay?Ifyoudefineefficiencythatwayit'shardtoseehowacourse,

whichcomesinatthousandsandthousandsofdollars,isefficient.Butthat'sanaside,arelevantasidebutnonethelessanaside.

WhatI'mwonderingherethoughis,whenyousayacourseisthemostefficient,whatcanthisgoalor

outcomebethatthecourseisthemostefficientpathto?Nowatthebeginningofthisthingwesaidourobjectiveis,youknow,thegoodlife,pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.Isacoursethemostefficientwaytothat?

Onewonders,well,whydon'twejusthaveacourseofreachingthegoodlifeanddispensewithallthe

restofit?Itprobablyisn't,youknow,ifpeoplethoughtthatacoursewouldleadthemtothegoodlifetheywouldn'tdoalltherestofthestuffthattheydo.Andthis,thisiswhyIchallengeyouonwhatacourseis,becausewhatacourseisnotjustthematerials,notevenjusttheorganisationorpresentation

ofmaterials,butallthediscussionandthedialogueandthecommunitythathappensaroundthesethings,right?

David:Thatcanhappenaroundthem.Imeantherearehonestlycourseswherethere'snodiscussionordialogueoranythingthathappens.

Stephen:Well,yeah,andthenonewonderswhethertheyareefficient.Youknow,wehavetheone

pictureoflearningwherewecandefineefficiencyastakingxcontentandmovingitfrominstructorAandinsertingitintostudentB.Idon'tthinkthat'samodeloflearningthateitherofushas.

David:Well,I'llarguewithyouaboutthatinaminute.

Stephen:Ohokay,right,okay.We'regoingtohavelotsoffunwiththat,aren'twe?Ithinkthatamoreappropriateaccountoflearning,andindeedanaccountthatismorealignedwithanobjectivelike

pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway,isnotacquiringknowledgeasthoughitweresomesortofobjectbutactuallyre‐shaping,re‐modelling‐that'sabadword,ithassomanyconnotationswith,you

know,re‐modellingyourlivingroom‐but,butgrowing,developing,becomingacertainsortofperson.

And,inmymind,there'sarealdisconnectbetweenacoursepackageandthatresult.Andpartofthediscussionaboutopeneducationalresourceshasbeen,inmymind,almostacommodificationoflearningasthiskindofthing.Youknow,“ifonlywehadthesecontentpackageswecouldmost

efficientlygetthemintopeople'sheads.”Andthatcertainlydoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersarelookingfor.Maybeitis,itdoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersarelookingfor,anditcertainlydoesn'tseemtometobethemodeloflearningthatwewanttobeworkingwith.Whichmeansthatwhenwe're

talkingaboutopenlearningandopeneducationalresourcesweneedtohaveamorenuancedviewofwhatopenlearningactuallyis,andnotjust,youknow,awarehouse,let'sshipitoutlikeitwastextbooks.

David:SoI'mnotembarrassedtosaythatIthinkyouprobablyreadevenmoreoftheresearchthanIdo,

becauseyouseemtoneversleep,alwaysbereadingorwritingsomething.Andyou,youcanthrowstudiesoutifyouwanttotakeissuewiththewaytheymeasurewhetherlearninghashappenedornot,butIdon'tthinkthatyou'lldisagreethatthere'sstrongconsensusintheliteraturethatthere'sa‐letme

saythiscorrectly‐aninverserelationshipbetweenaperson'sknowledgeofadomainandtheirneedforstructuretofurthertheirlearninginthedomain.

SoifI'macompletenovice,ifI,ifI'veneverheardtheword'geometry'before‐ifIdon'tknowapoint

fromalinefromaplane‐Ineedalotofhelp.IfI'vetakenacoupleofcoursesingeometry,nowI'mmaybeinaMaster’sprogrammeinmathorsomething,youcanprobablysetmelooseonthewebtogofindresourcestoteachmyselfandIcan,andIcantakemytimeandIcanhavethisotherkindof

experience,whichwasreallynotpossibleformewhenIknewabsolutelynothingaboutthedomain.

So,again,comingbacktothisideaoftheecologyorthemarketorwhatever,andtodisagreewithyourpointaboutFreire'sbankingnotionofeducation9,aboutjustpouringstuffintopeople'sheadoraboutitbeingabouttransfer,wesay“that'snotthekindofeducationthatwe'relookingfor,justtransferring

knowledgefromthefacultytothestudent,fromtheteachertothestudent.”Eventuallyit'snot,butI'mnotsurehowelseyoubegin,unlessyou'rereallywillingtodedicatealifetimetosomehowrediscoveringforyourself,throughadiscoveryprocess,youknow,thefundamentalaxiomsofgeometryorsomething.

Now,there'svalueinthatexperience,therearepeoplewhowouldliketohavethatexperience,that

wouldchooseto,soweneedtoprovideresourcestosupportthembecausechoiceispartofwhatwe'retalkingabout.Buttherearealsopeoplethat,forwhateverreason,justwanttogetabasichandleongeometryandreallydon'twanttospendmorethanfifteenweeksonit,andthey'rewillingtopaythree

hundredandfiftydollarsacredithourforsomebodytohelpthemdoinfifteenweekswhatwouldhavetakenthemtwoorthreeyearsorwouldhavebeenimpossibleforthemotherwise.

SoIthinkthatthisisacontinuum.AndIthink‐Ihatethesetermsmorethanyoudoeven,butI'mgoingtousethemanywaybecausethey'rejusttheeasiestshorthandtouse‐anovicejustneedsmore

support,needsmorestructure,needsmorehelp.Andasthatpersongrowsinexpertiseinadomainthentheyreachapoint,somewhereinthemiddlemaybe,wheretheycanstarttolearnontheirown

withoutthatcoaching,withouttheguidance,withoutsomeoneelsestructuringitforthem.Untileventuallytheyreachthepointwherethey'reactuallygeneratingnewknowledgeinthefield;that,thatit'snotstuffthey'velearnedanywhere,thisissomethingthatthey'vereachedsuchamasterythatthey

can,youknow,theycangeneratenewinsights,newusefulthingsthatpeoplehaveneverseenbefore.

SoIdon'tthinkit'sfairtosaythatwedon't,wedon'twant'bankingeducation'kindofeducation.AlthoughnowI'mbeingstreamedasdisagreeingwithFreireIwon'tbeabletosleeptonight.ButIdothinkatsomepointtherearesomepeople...Imeanifyou'regoingtocomeintobiologyorgeometry

youjusthavetomemoriseallof,there'sawholevocabularyyouhavetoknoworyoujustwillnotbeworkableinthefield.Andwetalkaboutgrowthlearninganddrillandkillandwhatever,webelittleit,butItellyouwhat,ifyoudon'thavethatbasicunderstandingofvocabulary,thetermsandthe

meaning...

OnemorestorybeforeIletyourespond.Igot,IgotinaprettygoodfightwithTomDuffyatareceptionatARAacoupleofyearsback,onthistopic,aboutmultiplicationpapers.Tom'swhatIwould

9http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/education/freire/freire‐2.html

characteriseasamoreradicalconstructivist,maybenotcompletelyradicalconstructivist.Buthewassayingtome:“it'sunconscionablethatweaskpeopletomemorisemultiplicationtables.Whatwe

shoulddoissomethinglikeweshouldsetupastoreintheschoolclassroom,weshouldhavepeoplebuy,kidsshouldbuythreeapplesandthentheyshouldbuyfiveorangesandthey,theyshouldhavethisexperience,youknow,somanytimesthateventuallyitjust,youknow,thattheylearn,theydiscoverfor

themselves,whatever,theycometoamasteryofthemultiplicationtablesthroughthisprocessofdoing,andnotjustsittinginacornerwithachartandmemorisingmultiplicationtables.Andinfact,ifyoumemorisethemultiplicationtablesit'simpossibleforyoutoactuallyunderstandwhatmultiplicationis

andmeans.”AndIsaid“Tom,Imemorisedmymultiplicationtables.”Andhesaidtome“youdon'tknowwhatmultiplicationisorwhatitmeans.”Sorry,itseemedrelevant.

Stephen:Andit'sanicereductio.Okay,coupleoflineshereofreasoning.AndIwanttobeclearfirstofallthatI'mnotinapositionwhereI'madvocatingapurelyconstructiviststancetolearning,Iamnot

advocatingapurelydiscoverylearningmodel,andIwanttobecarefulnottobecaricaturedasthat,okay?Now,it'sthe,thewhole,youprobablysawthestuffIwroteaboutKirschner,ClarkandSweller10,and,youknow,it's,it'satacticthatthatsortofgroupuses,right?“Ohyouhavetodiscovereverything

foryourself,youhavetoreinventmodernphysics,”whichisabsurd,right?Yeah.Tookusthree,four,whatever,thousandsofyears,ahumanisn'tgoingtodothatintheirlifetime.

AndanotherthingIwanttosay,andbereallyclearabout,memorisationworks,weknowthis,right,wehavetonsofempiricalevidence,youcanindeedmemoriseyourmultiplicationtables.AndIwill,Iwill

sayveryclearlythatIthinkyoustillcanunderstandwhatmultiplicationmeanseventhoughyouhavememorisedthemultiplicationtables,althoughitmaytakeyoualifetimeofclosestudyinordertogetatthat.Ioncetooka,aclassinthephilosophyofmathematicsand,youknow,sittingtherequestioning

likethebasicprincipleofsubstitutivity,“Canyouactuallyputafiveinthisplacewhereyouhadafourbefore,isthatalegitimatemove?”And,youknow,wellthat'sagoodquestion,right?Justbecausethis

formulaworkswithafive...Anyhow,totallyaside.

Sograntthat,okay,wecangrantthat,peoplecanlearnbymemorising.Thatthat'sinfacttheproblem,peoplecanlearnanythingbymemorising,doesn'tmatterwhetherit'strueorfalse.Andinfacttheunrestraineduseofmemorisationinlearninghas,asitsmostdevastatingconsequence,notthefactthat

peoplefailtolearn,butratherthefactthatpeoplelearnthingsthatareverydamaginglike'myraceisthebest,'or...

David:Indoctrinationorpropaganda.

Stephen:Yeah.Soontheonehand,yeah,memorisethemultiplicationtables,okay,fairenough.Butthereisn'tmuchfurtherbeyondmultiplicationtableswhenlearningbecomesnotsimply

straightforward,axiomaticfact.Thequestionsofvaluebegintocomein,andtocomein.Andthenthemodeloflearningasbeingguidedtakesontwoaspects:oneaspectis,youknow,theacquisitionofknowledge,whateverthatmaybe;andtheotheraspectisofcoursetheacquisitionortheforminginto

apersonofacertaintype,andteachingbecomesapracticeofreplicatingthattypeofperson.

10http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2007/12/free‐learning‐and‐control‐learning‐on.html

David:Soareyouagreeingthatasyoumovefrombeingacompletenoviceandgrowinexpertisethatthatstructurethat'snecessaryforyoudoesfade,canfadeaway?

Stephen:No,allofwhatIsaidnowisapreludetoaddressingthenovicequestion,okay?And,andI'llsay

it,I'llsayitthestridentwayfirst,andthestridentwayisthatoneofthemostsignificantaccomplishmentsoftheeducationalsystemthatwehavehasbeentoconvincepeoplethattheyarenovicesfromearlychildhoodallthewaythroughintomid‐adulthood,theyneverstopbeingnovices.

Youknow,I...

David:Theydon'tactuallyeverstopbeingnovicesorweconvincethemthattheyneverstopbeingnovices?

Stephen:Weconvincethem.Afteragesthreeorfourthey'vestoppedbeingcompletenovices,right?AtthreeorfourIcanunderstandyou'regoingtohavetogivethemsomeguidancebecausethey'llwalk

ontotheroad,theyreallyarethatill‐educated,right?Andsoweneedtopreventthemfromwalkingontotheroad.ButImean,youknow,youhaveapersonwhoisenteringuniversity,they'reeighteenyearsold,they'vegonethroughtwelveyearsofformalschooling,eighteenyearsofinformallearning,

andyouturntothemandsay“youareanovice.”Thereactionofthispersonquiteproperlyshouldbe“whatworldareyoulivingin?”Youknow,sothefact,ifitisafact,thattheyarenovicesastheyenteruniversityisanartefactofoureducationalsystem.Wehavecreatedthissituation.

David:SocanIpushonyouwithanexampleortwo?

Stephen:Goforit.

David:IwasgoingtouseSpanishbutthat'sunimaginableintheUnitedStatesrightnow.SoI'venever

heard,neverread,neverseenRomanian‐spoken,written‐asanexample.Igotouniversity,IdecideI'mgoingtotakeacourseinRomanian.NowIdobringacertainamountofknowledgeaboutmyown

languagetothatexperience,butwithregardtoRomanian,amInotactuallyacompletenoviceatthatpoint?

Stephen:DependsonhowyoudefineRomanian,right?IfyoudefineRomanianasthesetoffactsrelatedtothelanguage,spokenandwritten,of...

David:Thevocabulary,thegrammar.

Stephen:Right,thenyouareanovice.ButifyourepresentRomanianasasystemforcommunication,

onehumantoanother,you'vegotninetypercentofwhatyouneedalready,theonlythingmissingisthelittlecodethattheyusetoexpress'I'mhungry'insteadofthecodethatyouuse.Youknow...

David:Iknowwhatnounsare,Iknowwhatverbsare,Iknowwhatpunctuationmeans,I,IhaveallthatbackgroundfromEnglish.

Stephen:Yeah.Soyou'rereallynotanovice,youcouldinfactpickupRomanianremarkablymorequicklyinfactthananativeRomanianspeaker,becauseittookthenativeRomanianspeakertenyears,

fifteenyears,tolearnRomanian,you'regoingtodoitinacoupleofyears.

David:Weren'ttheyspeakingitbythetimetheywerethreeorfour?AndwillIeverspeakaswellastheydo?

Stephen:WellImeanIthinkafterevenayearofRomanianlessonsyou'regoingtospeakRomanianaswellasafouryearoldRomanian,it'sempirical,wecouldtestthat.But,youknow,tobecome

conversant,ImeannobodywouldsaythatafouryearoldRomanianisconversantinRomanian,right?Theycangetbybut,youknow,askthemaquestioninmetaphysics,they'llbestumped,right?

David:Sonooneisacompletenoviceinanythingbeyondtheageofthreeorfourbecausethere'ssomelifeexperienceyou'vehadsomewherethatyoucansomehowmeaningfullybringtobearonwhatever

contentareayoumightenterinto,istheargument,right?

Stephen:Right.

David:Okay.

Stephen:Now,additionally,themechanismthatwehaveofdeliveringlearning,firstofallorganisedintocourses‐science,art,psychology,biology,whatever‐andthensegmentedintoclasses,again,perpetuatesthisthing,thisideathatpeoplearenovices,becausetheygettobeanoviceevery

September,right?There'sawholenewcourse,right?Andwhentheygotouniversityit'sevenbetter,there'sawholenewsubject,entiresubjectareasthatdidn'texist.Butthisisaccomplishedagainby,by,byre‐shaping,Iusethephraseinmyhead“byflakingandforminglearningintothesepackagesand

deliveringittothemasthoughitwere,youknow,Kraftdinner.”

Infact,youtalkabouthowsomebodyneedstoknowthevocabulary,how,howtheycan'tevencommunicateunlesstheyknowthewordsandwhatthewordsmean.Wecanand,and,andshould,and

insomecasesdo,putpeoplefromveryearlyagesintocommunitieswheretheyspeakusingthosetermsandthatterminology.Now,again,thinknotaboutareaswhereyou'reanovice,thinkaboutareaswhereyouhavesomeexpertise,somepractice,especiallyifit'snotatraditionaloneofthesubjects,right?

Maybeit'sahobbyorsomethinglikethat,andthinkbackabouthowyouacquiredyourknowledgeinthatarea.Andofcoursebydefinition,becauseIjustdefinedit,youdidn'ttakeaclassinthat,butratheryoupickeditupbytalkingtopeoplewhoarealreadyinthatcommunity,thetradingcards,right?There

areno,Iassumetherearenoformalclassesintradingcards,right?Or,or,youknow,oreven,youknow,baseball,right,okay,thereareclassesinbaseball,butnobodytakesthem.

David:Orprogramming.

Stephen:Orprogrammingisanothergoodexample.Andwhathappensispeoplestartplayingbaseballorprogrammingcomputersfromanearlyage,butnotsimplydoingthat,theyengageinthis

conversationwithotherpeoplewhodoit.Andit'sintheprocessofthisconversationthattheyacquiretheknowledge,theyacquirethelanguage,theexpressions,and,youknow,throughpersonal

communicationwithotherpeoplemoreandlessexpertthanthemselvestheygraduallyacquirethisexpertiseinthedomain.So...

David:SoIwouldn'tdisagreethere,butIthinkbaseball,andIdowanttotakeusbacktoopen

educationalresourcesandtrytobridgeback.

Stephen:Andbaseballisatleastascomplexasmathematics.

David:Yeah.ButIthinkyoucansee,youcanseeexamplesofkidswhostartplayingbaseballatfiveoreightorlittleleague,whateveritis,andtheyplayforfouryears.Andyouputtwoteamstogetherandonejustbeatstheheckoutoftheotherteam,andthere'sobviouslybeenadifferenceintheefficiency

ofthetrainingthat'sgoneonduringthatsameperiodoftime,okay?Becauseinthesamefouryearsyou'vegotsomekidswhohavelearnedtoplaybaseballalotbetterthananotherteamofkidswho'vebeenplayingforthesamefouryears.

Andyouwouldassumethedifferenceisinthecoaching,inthestructureofthepractices,inthekindsof

exercisestheydidinpractice,andthewaythecoachstructuredtheexperiencesthatthosekidshad.Ifallofthesekidsarereallybetteratbaseballthanalloftheseandthey'vebeenplayingforthesameperiodoftime,youhavetoattributethatdifferenceto...Imeanifthere'sonekidwho'sreally,you

know,who'sreallyastarandhe'smoreathleticorwhatever,butifyou'vegotawholeteamwithsuperiorskillswhichyoucanseebythetimetheygettotwelveorthirteenandtheystartplayinginter‐leaguekindofgames,youreallydostarttoseethedifferenceaneffectivecoachhasversusaguylike

mewho,youknow,coachesmyboy'sbasketballteam,butit'sreallyaboutgettingthemexcitedforthegameandmakingsuretheyenjoyit,andthere'snotthisemphasisreallyonskilldevelopmentandconditioningandsomethingelsethatmaybeanothercoachdoes.

Stephen:Well,whatyou'vemadethestatementissomethingalongthelinesof:'allotherthingsbeing

equal,coachingmakesadifference,'right?Allotherthingsarerarelyequal.

David:Allotherthingsbeingequalenoughthough,Iwouldsay.

Stephen:Well,youthinkthat'strue?

David:Yeah,Imeanthecommunity,thecommunitythatIliveinnowcertainlyisavery,agroup,isaplacewherealotofpeoplearelikealotofotherpeopleinthiscommunity.Andalotoftheseteams,if

youjustlinedthemupandlookedatthem,ifyoureadtheirSES(Socio‐EconomicStatus)dataorwhatever,youwouldsay“Idon'treallyseeadifference.They'reallaboutthistall,they'reallthisracialbackground,they'reallthisSES,they'reallwhatever.”Andthenoneofthemjustbeatsthesnotoutof

theother.

Stephen:Becausewhenyou'vetakenalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequation,thenthesignificantdifferenceistheteacher,right?But,youknow,takingalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequationsimplymagnifiestheimpactofthatteacher.

David:Areyouarguingagainsttheimpactofteaching?

Stephen:Iam,becausethere'sawholelineofreasoningthat'splaysarolehere.Ithinkthatteachingisonefactorintheattainmentoftheirbaseballskills,orwhateverskills,Idonotthinkitistheonlyfactor.

David:Idon'tthinkthatanybodywouldarguethatit'stheonlyfactor.

Stephen:Idon'teventhinkit'sthemostimportantfactor.AndinfactIthinkthatouremphasison

teachingasbeingreally,reallysignificantherecomessimplybecausewecontinuallyexaminestatesofaffairswheretheyareasyou'vedescribed;they'reallthesamesocio‐economicbackground,they'reallthesameage,they'reallthesamerace,etcetera.

David:Ifyoudidn'tisolatethosevariablesthough,howwouldyoustudythecontributionofteaching?

Stephen:Whyisitimportanttostudythecontributionofteachinginisolationfromalltherestofthose

things?

David:Iassumeyouwanttoknowifit...Rhetoricalquestion?

Stephen:Well,well,alittlebitbecauseitsuggeststhatteachingcanhaveanimpactindependentofallofthoseotherthings,itsuggeststhatthe,the,theactoflearningissomethingthatcanbebrokendownintoitsconstituentcauses.Butthisisreallyamultipledependentvariablesituation,where,youknow,

taketheverysameteachingandputitintoaclassroomintheDominicanRepublic,maybe,or...

David:Yeah.

Stephen:Right.So,youknow,youisolateforallyourvariables,thenyoulookatyourteaching,yourteachingworksbutonlyinthecontextwhereallofthesevariablesaresuchandsuch,changetheseothervariablesandtheverysameteachingbecomes,youknow,probably...Well,notprobably,Idon't

know,butcouldbeanegativeinfluence.Sowe'recreatingafiction,aren'twe,when,whenwedothesestudiesandisolatealltheseothervariablesandsay“ooh,thisisgoodteaching,thisisit.”We'vecreatedthisfiction,it'snotevenknowledge,notevenafact,andwhenyougetgoodenoughatthesestudies

youcomeupwiththefactsfirst,thatyouwant,andyousetupyourstudyandthenyouextractthem.

David:I'masbig,canyoubeabigun‐fan?ButwhatamItryingtosay?

Stephen:You'reasscepticalas...

David:I'massceptical,thankyou,asanybodyaboutthingsliketheWhatWorksClearingHouse11,andIhadalittleblogtiradingthatwholeparadigmofresearchrecently.12ButI'mnot...I'vegottwothings

competinginmymindhere.Idothink,Idothinkthattherearethingswecanlearnbystudyingteachingthatcanmakepeoplemoreeffectiveteachers.Andwhatmoreeffectiveteachersmeansisthateitherinthesameperiodoftimeastudentcanlearnmoreandrememberitlonger.Youcouldcomeupwitha

numberofdefinitions,butIdothinktherearepeoplewhowanttohaveamoreefficientexperiencethantheywouldhavebythemselves.Andifthat'strue,ifit's,ifit'struethenthere'sawholerangeof

11http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/12http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/980

efficienciesImightbeabletohave,Imighthavetopaymoreforsome,themostefficientonesmightbefree,Idon'tknow.

ButifIhaveasensethatthere'ssomebodyouttherethat,asI'msittinghereI'veignoredthe

repositoriesandI'vegonetoGoogle,I'veignoredLTSC‐LOMandI'veusedRSS,I've,youknow,I'vegoneonthesimple,highlyadoptedsideofthiswholething,notonthetechnicallearningobject,I'vegonewiththesimple,winningtechnologies.IfoundallthethingsIcanfind.

Icangiveyouagreatexamplethatisdrivingmeinsanerightnow,ItoldyouearlierI'mworkingonthis

analysisofcovarianceofsomedataI'mlookingat.Itookaclassinthistenyearsago,Ipassedtestsinthistenyearsago.Ispenthoursyesterday,Ispentonehouractuallywiththeconsultantforthestatisticsprogramme,andthenseveralhoursinGooglegoingthroughalltheseresources.Andthisis

theoreticallysomethingIknewatsomepointinthepast.I'mdiggingaround,I'mdiggingaround.IspentIdon'tknowhowmanyhourslastnight.Itwashighlyinefficient,itwasveryfrustrating.It'ssomethingthat,intheory,Ididhavesomeexpertiseinatsomepointintime,andIwouldhavegivenjustabout

anythingifIcouldhavegottenahumanbeingtherewhocould'veincreasedtheefficiencyanddecreasedthefrustratingness,ifthat'saword,ofmyexperience.Iwantedthat,anditwasmidnightandtherewasnowayformetogetitandIgaveupandwenttobed.ButIwouldchalkthatuptomybeing

sortofnoviceyinstatistics,nothavingdonealotwithitfortenyears,sinceItookthatseriesofcoursesthatIhad,andnotevenhavingenoughbasicknowledgetogointotheresourcesthatareavailable,andthere'sgoodresourcesthere,andcomeoutontheothersideabletodothekindofanalysisthatI

wantedtodo.It'sinefficient,it'sfrustrating,Iwantedateacher.

Stephen:Ijustwanttosayonethingbeforethebreak.Ithinkalot'sgoingtohingeonthisdefinitionofefficiency,Idon'tthinkyoucansustainitpersonally,andIfinditironicthatthestuffthatyoutooka

seriesofcoursesinisthethingthatyounowfindyourselfanovicein.SoIthinkthatthere'sefficiencyandefficiency,andwhatyoubelievedonceuponatimewasyourobjective,andthequickestwaytogetthere,wasinfactawayofmisrepresentinglearningthatyouhad,thatledyoudownafalsepath.You

wentveryquicklyinthewrongdirection.

David:IwouldargueIwentveryquicklyintherightdirectionandInevertoucheditagainfortenyears.Youignoreanythingfortenyears‐almostanything,maybenotridingabike‐youignoreanythingfortenyearsandyou'regoingtobeworseatitthanyouwere.

Stephen:Ridingabikeislikeaskill,it'slikegrowing,wecomebacktowhatIthoughtlearningwas.Let's

takeourbreakandwe'llcomebacktoit.

Chris:Wehaveafewminutes,we'llcontinueafterthebreak,we'llhaveaboutfifteenminutes.

David:You'reagreatmoderatorbytheway.

PartTwo‐Education,LearningandLicensingRecordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley2.mp3

• EducationvsLearningandthe'EducationalLicense'Debate• 'Enclosure',orNon‐LicenseMethodstoBlockAccesstoOERs• TheNCClauseofCreativeCommonsLicenses• MixingContent,MixingLicenses

Moderator:PaulStacey

David:SothewholereasonthatItookusdownthethirtyminutenoviceexpertpaththere‐whichIdon'tthinkIapologisefor‐wasjusttosaythatIthinkthereisroomintheworldandvalueforopeneducationalresourcesthatarehighlystructured,thatlooklikeacourse,andonesthatlooklikeaduck

becausetherearedifferentkindsofpeoplewithdifferentneeds.Iiftheydon'thavedifferentneedstheymighthavedifferentpreferences,andwhoarewetotellthem,youknow,youcan'thaveanythingofastructureputtogether,youhavetoassembleeverythingyourself?Orwhoarewetotellthemyoucan

onlyhavefullcourses,youcanneverhaveaccesstoindividualcomponents?

Ithinkthewholepointofthis,particularlyfromtheproductionside,isthatwewantpeopletosharewhateverthey'rewillingtoshareandcomfortablesharing,andifyouwanttoshareyourpictureofaduckthenthat'sawesome,ifyouwanttoshareyourcoursethat'sgreat.Andtheworldisabigenough

placethattherewillbepeoplewhofindvalueinwhateveryoushare.Partlybecauseofthedifferentneedstheymighthavebasedonpriorknowledgetheyhavecomingintothatexperience.Thatwasthewholepointofofthat.

Stephen:AndifIwantedtoestablishonething...Iwantedtoestablishmanythingsofcourse...

David:Onedaywon'tbeenough.We'llbebacktomorrow.

Stephen:ButonethingIwouldliketodrawoutofthatdiscussionisthatopeneducationalresourcesare

notnecessarilystructuredcoursesand…

David:Absolutely.

Stephen:itisnotnecessarytomountthesecoursesinordertoprovideOERs,inordertoprovideaccesstolearning.That'snottosaythatIwould,well,raisesomesortofinjunctionagainstuploadingcompletecourses,thatIwouldmarchtoOpenUniversityandgo“You,you'redoingitwrong.”WellImightbut,

butnot,notatthemoment.It'snotnecessaryinordertomaketheposition.Soifpeoplewanttoupload

fullcoursesortobemorepreciseinourlanguage,fullcoursepackages,becauseofcoursethecourseistheinteractionaswell,fine,goforit.

Butitisnotarequirementandinmywayofthinkingitwouldworkjustaswell,ifnotbetter,ifthat'snot

whatwearedoing,ifinfactwhatwewereuploadingwerepicturesofducks,tocaricaturethatabit.Butmoreaccurately,ifwewerewildlyandfreelyuploadingresourcesofwhatevertype.Andthenwemoveintothenextpartofprovidingaccesstolearningonline,whichis,provisionoftheresourcesor

mechanismforcommunitytoformaroundforthoseresources.

AndpartofmyconcernaboutthemodelofopeneducationalresourcesascoursepackagesisthatitleadsusawayfromthatpictureofcommunityformingaroundtheresourcebaseandtowardsthisideathatlearningproperlysocalledwithabigLissomethingthatcanbe,youknow,assembledand

packagedandmountedasafullcoursepackage.Andinourdiscussiontofollowwewillfind,Ithink,thatthereareadditionalproblemsthatarecausedbythat,notrelatedtolearning,butcausedwithrespecttotheobjectiveofprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Goodenoughsofar?

David:Yeah.

Stephen:Okay.

David:IactuallywanttotakeamomentandsaysomethingniceaboutMITOpenCourseWare.

Stephen:Allright.

David:Whichisn'tthevoguethingtodoIunderstand.

Thankyou(asifonqueuesomeonefromMIThandsmeabottleofwater).

Guest:Idon'tworkforOpenCourseWare.

David:YouknowIrealisethatsomeofthereasonthatpeoplecometoMITopencoursewareisbecause

oftheMITbrand.

Stephen:Right.

David:HoweverIthinkthestrokeofgeniusinMITOpenCourseWare,comparedtowhatweweredoingwithlearningobjectsinthedecadeleadinguptothat,isthatwhenyoufoundalearningobjectinits

contextfreerepositorywithitsnicelongmetadataandwhateverelse,youlookedatthatandyouhadahardtimeimaginingallthethingsyoumightdowithit,how,orsometimesimagininganythingyoumightdowithitwhenyousawit.

ThethingaboutMITopencoursewareisthatIthinkit'sactuallyasituationwhichyoucanbothhave

yourcakeandeatitaswell,becausehereareallthesethingsputtogetherinawaysothatyoudon'tfindtheminarepositorydevoidofanycontext,youactuallyfindthemembeddedinaparticularcontextthatisprobablyuseful.Butyoufindthemwithpermissionforyoutotakethembackoutofthatcontext

anddosomethingelsewiththem.

It'sjustlikefindingitintherepositoryinthatyoufinditandyoucantakeitanddosomethingwithit.Butitalsohasanexamplecontextthatgivesyousomeideasabouthowyoumightuseit.That,

structuringthosethingsasacoursebutgivingpeoplepermissiontothenimmediatelytakethemapartagainIthinkiswhatmadethatsomuchmoreusefulandintriguingthatjustlearningobjectrepositoriesoutthereintheworldbefore.SoIthinkthatpartwassomethingthattheydidwell,thatwasuseful.

Stephen:Well…

David:Idon'twanttosoundlikeI'malwayscompletelycriticalofMITOCW

Stephen:SeewhatI,IthinkofMIT,IthinkthatOpenCourseWarewasamarketingstrokeofgeniusand

hadverylittletodowithprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.That'sjustahappysideeffect.Whattheywantedtodoandwhattheywereveryclearaboutdoing,astheywentthroughtheprocessoflaunchingOCW,wastosay“Thisisn'taneducation.Ifyouwantaneducationyouhavetopaytheten,

twenty,hundredthousanddollarsandcometoMIT.”

David:Wheredid(Anya?)go?Hundredeighty‐ninethousand,Ithink,iswhatAnya(Spurrier?)said.

Stephen:Ahundredandeighty‐nine?

David:Yeah,forthefouryears.

Stephen:Okay,soI'mactuallyunderestimating.Right,that'sastrokeofgenius.They'veconvincedpeoplewhobeforewerethinkingtheinternetkillerappwillbeeducation(rememberJohnChambers?)withthestrokeofapen,almost,theyundercutthatideaandsay“No.Educationiswhathappensat

MIT.”Andsotheyreinforcedthebrandofcourse,butreinforcedtheideathatyoucan'tgetaneducationonyourown,youhavetocometoMITandlearnfromwhoever'satMIT.

David:Wellisn'tthatreinforcingtheideathatthedialogueandthediscussionandthediscourseareallcriticallyimportantpartsofthe…

Stephen:Wellthoseareallcriticallyimportantpartsbutitdoesn'thavetohappenatMIT,right?Andsoit'sarebranding,butit'salsoaconceptualisationoflearning.Learningistheorganisationofmaterialsinthiswaysuchthatitcorrespondswiththisdialoguethattakesplacewhere?AtMIT.Idon'tknowwhere

wegowiththatbut…

David:Yeah.Nothat,wellIstartedwithakindofrandomdisconnectedthoughtandnowit'sendedupdisconnectedsoweshouldn'tbesurprised.

Stephen:Weshouldn'tbesurprised.

[Nexttopic]:Educationandlicensing.Forthose,forthatonepersonwhoisnotfamiliarwiththepointofdisputehere...

David:Ithinkthisisgoingtobethemostsurprisingoneofall.

Stephen:Becauseyou'regoingtoagreewithme?

David:We'llsee.

Stephen:We'llsee.

David:Maybeyou'regoingtoagreewithme.

Stephen:Ithinkthatwewillfindsomecommongroundbutwe'regoingtohavetokeeptherestofthisstuffinthebackgroundbecause,anyhow,becauseIthinkit'simportant.

Youknow,likeIthrowglibremarksaroundlikeframingandcommercialisingandsoonbutyouknow,I

tryinthefirstsegmenttorepresentthesystemoflearningonlypartiallyasasystemoflearningbutalsoasasystemofmarketing.Andwhenyousayacourseisthemostefficientwaytogettosay…

David:Imustobjectthatit'samoreefficientwaythandoingitcompletelyonyourown.

Stephen:I,well...I'llgowithmoreefficient,thekeywordhereisn't“most,”or“more,”thekeywordhereis“efficient,”right?Andyousayacourseisthemoreefficientwayofgettingtoaknowledgeof

geometry.Irepresentthatinmymindassomethingalongthelinesof,“they'vegotyoufooledintothinkingyouneedaquote‐unquote‘Knowledgeofgeometry’.”AsIremarkedrightattheendoftheprevioussegment,they'vegotyougoingveryquicklydownthewrongroadandIthinkthat'sreally

important.

David:Theroadisthetopicofstudyiswrong?“Idon'tneedtoknowgeometry,”isthatwhatyou're,Iwanttounderstandwhatyou'resaying.

Stephen:Wellmostlyyoumightnot,geometrymightbeabadexamplebecauseitissofoundationaltomanyotherthingsthatwedobut,butyouknow,ImeanIcanimagineentirelifetimeslivedwithouta

needtoaccesstheprinciplesofgeometry,alawyermaybe.Idon'tknow.Okay,maybethat'saglibremarkaboutlawyers,butyouknowwhatImean.Imean,it'sgoingtocomeupinalotofcontexts,butinothercontextsit'snot.

Butevenmorefundamentally,therepresentationofaknowledgeofgeometryas‘thatwhichisattainedafterhavingcompletedageometrycourse’tomeisamisrepresentationofwhatcouldpossiblybeconstruedasaknowledgeofgeometry.Andyouyourselfprovidedtheexampleofhavingtakenallof

thesecoursesinwhateveritwas,factoring…

David:Statistics.

Stephen:Yeah,andstillnotbeingabletodowhatitwasthatyoutookallthesecoursestolearnhowtodoandhowcouldthathavebeenefficient,youknow?Icouldimagineyoumaybenotbeingabletodoitnowaswellasyoucouldtenyearsago,buttobestymiedandfeelinglikeanoviceagainisalmost

incomprehensible.AndsoIlookatthatandI'dsay“Wellyoudidnotinfactactuallylearnthesethings.”

AndwhenIsaythat,Imeansomethingalongthelinesof“Yourbraindidnotgrowsufficientlysoastobesomethingthathaslearnedstatistics,”orthisparticularaspectofstatistics,thatyoumayhavehadsome,touseanoldstyleterminology,superficialimpressionsthatweresufficienttogetyouthrough

testsbuttheactualformationthatwouldhavetakenplacethroughanalternative,moreimmersive,moreengagedprocessthansimplytakingacoursewouldhavebeen...mysentenceisfallingapart,but

thatalternativeprocesswouldhavebeenlearning.Thiswasn'tlearning,andthereforewasn'tmore,muchlessmost,efficient.

David:SoIwilldisagreewithyouonthesegrounds.Likemyknowledgeofstatistics,atonepointIwasaveryfluentJapanesespeaker.Icouldpassonthephoneasanativeandmeetpeopleandtheywouldbe

surprisedthatIwasagaijin.NowIdon'tusethatskillhardlyatallanymore.It'sbeenfifteenyearsnowsinceIreallymadeheavyuseofitandnowIamnotafluentJapanesespeaker.Icansortofgetby.IcanorderinrestaurantsanddothebasicthingsbutIdon'tthinkthat'sbecauseIdidn'tactuallymaster

JapaneseorIlearneditinasuperficialway.Ithinkit'sbecausewhenyouletadecadeoradecadeandahalfpasswithoutusingamoderatelytechnicalskillthatyouloseitifyoudon'tpractiseitandstayuponit.Idon'tthinkit'sthatIdidn'tunderstandJapaneseandthatIhadn'treallymasteredJapanesefairly

deeply.IthinkIjustletitgetoldanditkindofrottedbecauseIneverdugitupandpractised.

Stephen:IthinkthatyouwouldfindthatyoureacquireyourJapaneseremarkablyquicklyifyouwereinaJapanesespeakingenvironment.Ithinkthat,youknow,Idoubt,orIcantestyourcontentionthatyoudon'tactuallyanylongerknowJapanese.

David:Thebasics,yes.

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Themoretechnicalstuffno.Andthisisthesamestatisticsexample.Icanstilldobasicstatistics

butthiskindofstatisticsI'mtryingtodoisfairlytechnicalandfairlynuancedandtherearealotofassumptionsandIjusthaven'tusedthemintenyearsandI'veforgottenthem.Andreadinguponthemhasn'tbeenenoughtoputitallbacktogether.Youknow,Ineedapersontotalk',Ineedapersonto

helpmethroughthisprocess;justthematerialisn'tgettingitdoneforme.So,Idon'tthinkthatisacommentaryonthecourses,Ithinkit'sacommentaryonwhathappenstothedecayofaskillordecay

ofknowledgeorforgettingorwhateverovertimeifyoudon'tpractise,youloseaccesstothatexpertiseorknowledgeorverybasic.

Stephen:WellIcanstilldrawthesamepointoverbecausewespendtwelve,sixteenyearsofourlivestakingcoursesandthenwestoptakingcoursesatacertainpoint.Iwouldarguethatinthetenyears

thatfollow,wedon'tuseninetypercentofthestuffthatwasinthosecourses,right?Solet'stakeyourpointofviewasgiven,thataftertenyearsofnon‐useyounolongerknowthestuff,I'lljustacceptthefactasapointofargument.Sotenyearsafteryoureducationyounolongerknowninetypercentof

whatyoutookfromyoureducation.Howthen,Iask,isitthatyoureducationwasefficient?Imeanatbestyouhavetenpercentleftandyouonlyhavethattenpercentbecauseyouspentthetimebetweentheendofyoureducationandnowactuallyusingthattenpercent.Sotherestofit,youcan'thaveit

bothwaysright?

David:Actuallyitsoundslikeyou'rehavingitbothways.

Stephen:WellI…

David:Ithinkyou'remakingaveryutilitarianargumentaboutifyou'renot.“Ifwhatyou'relearningisn'tsomethingyou'regoingtouseinyoureverydaylife,you'regoingtouseitveryregularlyandvery

frequently,thenit'spointlessforyoutolearnit,”istheargumentIhearyousaying.WhydidIspendninetypercentofthetimelearningallthisotherstuffifIwasnevergoingtocomebacktoit?

Wheremyperspectivewouldbe,IcutaprettybroadpaththroughmygraduateprogrammesothatIcouldlearnaboutmanydifferenttypesofresearchthatIcoulddoandIgotworkableenoughinallof

themtothenmakeaninformeddecisionaboutwhichkindofresearchIwantedtodoandIwentdownthatpathandIleftacoupleofothermethodstotheside.I'dlearnedenoughaboutthemtobeabletomakeaninformeddecisionabout,youknow,whetherthatwasthekindofresearchIwantedornot,

decideditwasn'tandI,youknow,usedadifferentsetofmethodologies.

NowIwouldnottradehavinghadthatexperienceandmakinganinformedchoiceforsomeonesaying,youknow,Icantellthatyou'regoingtodothiskindofresearch,sowe'lljusttrainyouinonetechniqueandyoudon'tneedtoevertakeacourseintheothersbecauseyou'reneverreallygoingtousethem

anywaybecauseIwantedtomakethatchoiceformyself.Andyoumightsay“Howisthatefficient?”butIwanttomakethatchoiceformyself.

Stephen:Butthat'sadifferentefficiencyIthink.That's,youknow,we'renotonthecorecurriculumkindoftrackanymore,we'reontheDavidwantstoexplorekindoftrack,rightand…

David:Becausewhenyou'redoingaPhDyou'repastthenovicepartandmoreinsortofexpertsortof

rangeIwouldargue.

Stephen:Wellifyou'redoinggradeeightgeographyyou'repastthenovicepart.

David:Let'scomebackaroundtoOER.

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Wecandisagreeabouttheseotherthingslater.

Stephen:Wellbutitmatters.Butyeah,we'llcomebacktothis.

Allright,thelicensingdebate.Intherealmofcontent,whichiswhatopeneducationalresourcesarepresentedas‐noticehowcarefulI'mphrasingthis‐openlicensingistypicallyaccomplishedusingeither

CreativeCommonsorthe,ortheGNUFreeDocumentationLicencelessfrequently,andthat'sit.Ican'treallythinkofothers‐well,exceptyouropenlicenceaswell.

David:Yeah,althoughthankfullythelastholdoutswhoareRedHatandsomeofthoseotherfolksaretalkingfinallyaboutmigratingoffofthattotheCreativeCommonslicencesoIthinkwecanfinally

almostlaythewholemattertorest.

Stephen:AndtoalargedegreeIthinkthat'swhatwe'reseeing,theCreativeCommonslicensingisthedefactostandardforopencontent.

David:Yeah,Ithinkthat'saccurate.

Stephen:WhichsoundsfineexceptofcourseCreativeCommonsisnotasingleentitybutratherasetof

licences,andthesetoflicencesiscreatedbyallowingthelicensor(thepersonwhoownstheresourceandisofferingthelicence)tomakeasetofchoices.

Andthechoicesare:attributionversesattributionnotrequired...

David:Actuallythat'snolongerachoice.That'srequiredoneverylicencenow.

Stephen:Ididn'tknowthat.Isn'tthatinteresting?

David:Becauseinversiononeofthelicencesitwasninety‐eightpercent,doessomebodyknow?[pause]Ninety‐eightpercentofeverybodywassayingyouhavetoattributemeanywaysofromversiontwo

forwardtheyjustsaid,youknow,“Forgetit,we'llputattributionineverylicence.”

Stephen:Showsyouhowlongit'sbeensinceI'veupdatedmylicences.Ididn'tknowthat.That'snewstome.Ohwell,youlearnsomethingeveryday.Thiswastoday'slesson.

ThewayCreativeCommonsoriginallybeganwasyoumadechoices,attributionornon‐attribution.ThesecondchoiceIthinkisstillextant,youcanchoosebetweencommercialandnon‐commercial,share‐

alikeandnotshare‐alikeandthen,morerecently,derivativeuseornon‐derivativeuse.

David:Wellsharealikeandderivsarekindofoppositeseachotherbecause…

Stephen:Yeah,againthat's,itdependsonyourperspectiveonthesethings,etcetera,etcetera.Butthemainpointispeoplecanoptfordifferentlicences.MyowncontentonmywebsiteiswhatIcallopencontent.ItislicensedunderCreativeCommons,attribution‐becauseIstilluseversiononebecauseI'm

astick‐in‐the‐mud‐sharealike,non‐commercial.Idon'tcareaboutthederivatives.

Buttheargumentpresentedisthatthisisnotreallyquote‐unquote,“free,”that“free”licensingwouldbe...I'llturnittoyou.

David:Sothisargumentisveryconfusingtomebecauseyouwouldthinkthatthefreestlicencewould

bethelicencewiththeleastrestrictionsontheperson,sosomethinginthepublicdomainwouldbefreerthansomethingthat'scopyrighted,offeredunderalicence,somethinglicensedCCzero(whichbasicallysays“IgiveawayalltherightsI'mpossiblyallowedtogiveawaybylaw,”)wouldbeafreer

licencethansomethingelse.

Butthereareanumberofpeopleintheworldwhowillarguewithyouthatattributionshare‐alikelicenceisactuallythefreestlicencebecausewhatwe,wedon'tcareaboutfreedomoftheuser,thedownstreamuser.Whatwecareaboutisthelong‐termfreedomofthecontent.SoifIsayattribution

sharealikethenthatguaranteesthatcontentandallofitsderivativeswillalwaysbeavailableforfree.

AndweshouldprivilegeongoingfreedomofcontentoverthefreedomofthedownstreamusertomakechoicesaboutnowthatI'vemadethisderivative,doIwanttouseadifferentlicence,doIwantto

commercialiseit,doIwanttodothis,doIwanttodothat?

Andthisisn'ttalkedaboutalotinthelicensingdebate(welltherearepeoplethatargueaboutwhichlicenceisthefreestlicencebutwedon'tgettothenuance).Dowecaremoreaboutthefreedomoftheonesandzerosinhereordowecaremoreaboutthefreedomofpeoplewhoaregoingtomakeuseof

thoseonesandzeros?IguessI'mgivingawaymyownbiasinthewayI'mframingmycomments.Buttherearealargegroupofpeoplewhofeelliketheshare‐alikelicenceisthefreestlicencebecauseitguaranteesthefreedomofthecontentforever.Thereareotherpeoplewhofeellikethefreestlicenceis

theonethatprovidesthemostfreedomtothedownstreamuserofthematerialtodowithitwhattheywill.

Stephen:Okay,thatwasadirectiontakenthatIwasn'texactlyanticipatingbutthat'scool.FirstIwanttobracketsomething.Ijustwanttojustmakeaparentheticalremarkabouttheformofanargumenthere.

Gobacktolearningobjectsandthereusedtobe,maybetherestillisinsomecircles,abigdebateaboutwhatkindofobjectcouldbealearningobjectandtheargumentwasapictureofaduckcouldn'tbealearningobjectbecausetherewasnolearninginthe…

David:Therewasnoinstructionhappening.

Stephen:Therewasnoinstruction.

David:Happening.

Stephen:Right?

David:Right.

Stephen:And,ofcourse,myposition,whichIarticulatedinthefirsthalf,wasthatwhatmakesita

learningobjectisifitisusedforlearning.That,theideaofhavinglearningintheobjectitselfisamisconstrualofwhatwemeanbylearning.Nowwecomeback,comebackhere…

David:Therearepeoplewhocalltheminstructionalobjects.

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Bytheway.

Stephen:Yeah,andtheymaybe,theycanusewhateverdefinitionofinstructiontheywantandcall

theminstructionalobjectsbutagain,whatisthat?Well,isitanobjectthatinstructs,doesitperformsomekindoffunction,isitanobjectthatisusedtoinstruct,youknow,Imeanwerunintothesamesortofthing.Youknow,ifyoucallitinstruction…

David:...sorry.

Stephen:No,that'sfine,butthiscautionwithterminologyisimportanthere,youknow,Iknowsometimesitmakesmeseemabitpedantictogetintothat…

David:No,becauseourlaterargumentsarealwaysaboutthewords.

Stephen:Theyare.

David:Solet'sdoitatthebeginninginstead.

Stephen:Andthewords,roughlyspeaking,representwaysofseeingtheworldandsowhenI'marguing

aboutthemeaningsofwordsI'marguingaboutwaysofseeingtheworldandonewayofseeingtheworldistoimbueobjectswithhumancharacteristics.Thechairissitting,right?Thetreeisleaningoverandwantstofalldown.

David:Informationwantstobefree.

Stephen:Informationwantstobefree.Butofcourse,weknowthattheseareobjects.Theyarenot

capableofhavingthesepropertiesbecausetheyarejustnottherightkindofthings.Achairisnotthekindofthingthatsits,youknow,sittingissomethingthathumansdo.Ifyoudon'tlikethatexampletheninformationwantingtobefree.Towantistobeinaparticularcognitivestateandinformation,eventhe

mostcomplexinformationthatwecanimaginejustisn'tcapableofbeinginthatstate.Solearningobjects,thelearningcan'tbeintheobject.Thelearninghastobe,inmymind,intheperson.

David:Iwon'targuethatwithyou.

Stephen:Ah,butyoumighthaveatonepoint.Butnowwecometothepresentdebate,samestructureofargument,right?Whereisthefreedom?Okay?Informationwantstobefree.Wellinformationisn't

thesortofthingthatcanwanttobefree.Informationisn'teventhesortofthingthatcanbefreeinanysenseoffreedomthatwehaveinmind.Attheveryleasttheonlysensethatwecanmakeoutofthesentence“Informationisfree,”or“contentisfree,”isthatthepersonwhohascontent,thepersonwho

hascontentisnotchargingmoneyforitbecause,youknow,theideaof,youknow,Ijusthavethispictureofcontentroamingfreelyovertheveldt,youknow,like,sotherepresentationofcontentas

beingfreeis,inmymind,misconstrued.

Ithinkthatthedistinctionthatyoudrewisusefulbutincorrectlystated,andthecorrectstatementisthefreedomof,shallwesay,usersofthecontentorletus,tobemorepreciseagain,thefreedomofpeoplewhodonotyethaveaccesstothatcontent,versusthefreedomofpeoplewhocurrentlydohave

accesstothatcontent(andI'mseparatingbetweenproduceranduser,butthewords‘producer’and‘user’bringinawholemythologythatIdon'twanttobringin).

David:It'sfine.

Stephen:Okay.

David:Idothinkyou'remakingadifferentpointthough.I…

Stephen:ButIthinkI'mmakingamoreaccuratepoint.

David:Idisagree.IthinkthatthepeoplethatIknowinthisconversationreallythinkthatcontentismoreimportantthanpeopleandtheycareaboutthecontentretainingacertainsetoflicencesoverits

lifetimemorethantheycareaboutthepeoplebeingabletomakeawiderrangeofusesofthatcontent.Anditkindoftroublesanddisturbsmethatitreallyisclearthattheyprivilegethecontents'rightsoveritslifetimeifwecansaycontenthasalifetime,overaperson'srights.

Stephen:Ithinkit'sinterestingthatyoufindthatthelicenceisapropertyofthecontentratherthanthe

propertyofaperson.

David:Youdon'tlicencepeople.

Stephen:Peoplehavelicences.

David:Peopleapplylicencestocontent.Theydon'tapplythemtothemselves.

Stephen:Suretheydo.Ifthelicenceattachedtocontentdidnotapplytopeopleinanywaytheentirediscussionwouldbecompletelymoot.

David:Butitonlyappliestoapersonwhentheyareinteractingwiththecontent.Right,the,the…

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Idon'tputtheCreativeCommonsbadgeonmyself,Iputitonmywebpage,right?Iputalicenceonthecontentthattellsyouwhatrightsyouhavewithregardtothecontent,notwhatrightsyouhave

withregardtome.I'mnotlicensingme.Youdon'tlicenceaperson.Youlicenseapieceofcontent.

Stephen:Butaperson,thelicencethatIhavetouseapieceofcontentisnotgrantedtomebythecontent.

David:No,it'sgrantedtoyoubyaperson.

Stephen:Right.Alicenceisanagreement,howeveropenended,betweentwopeople.

David:Right.

Stephen:Withrespecttocontent…

David:Inthiscase.

Stephen:…butitisnotapropertyofthecontent.

David:It'sapropertyofapersoninstead?Orit'snotapropertyofanything?

Stephen:Ifitistobesaidtobeapropertyitisapropertyofaperson.

David:Idon'tfollowyou.

Stephen:Okay.

David:Iunderstandit'sapersonwhomakesthechoiceofwhichlicencewillbeappliedtothecontentbutattheendofthedaythelicenceisappliedtothecontent,Icansay,what'sthelicenceforyourblog?

Stephen:Icanrespondinoneoftwoways.IcansayitisCreativeCommons,non‐commercial,share

alike.

David:InwhichcaseIwouldsaythatit'sapropertyoftheblog,it,theproperty'slicence(…)

Stephen:ButwhatImeanwhenIsaythatisIallowpeopletousemycontentnon‐commercially.

David:Right.

Stephen:Thestatementofthelicenceismeaninglesswithouttheadditionofthephrase“Iallow.”Okay?

David:Agreed.

Stephen:Thatistheessentialcomponentofthelicences,meallowingyoutodowhatever.

David:Right,withthecontent.Notallowingyoutodowhatever.

Stephen:Right.

David:Todowhateverwiththecontent.

Stephen:Withthecontent.

David:Yourlicenceisastatementabouthowpeoplecanusecontent.

Stephen:It'sastatement.Thisismyproperty,thisismystuffandIletyoudowhatever,certainthingswithit.

David:I'mgivingyouthesepermissionswithregardtothestuff.

Stephen:Right,okay.So...

David:Butifthepermissionsarewithregardtothestuff,howcanthosepermissionsnotbeapropertyofthestuff?Idon'tknow,I'mnottryingtobeamoron,I'mjust…

Stephen:No,no,no,Iunderstand,Iunderstandexactlywhatyou'resaying,it'sdefinitelynotmoronic.It'strickyandagainanditdoes,itverymuchisyouknow,it'sperspectivekindofthing,youknow,lookingatitthiswaywecansay“Ohyeah,itmustbeaproperty.”Lookingatitthisway,it'slike“Well

it'snotaproperty,it'ssomethingthatpeoplearedoing.”

David:SoifIchoosetoletyoupurchaseaniPodforacertainprice,ImakeanagreementwithyouthatI'llgrantyoucertainrightsinthisiPodifyoumeetcertainconditions,paymeapriceinthiscase.Then

you'resayingthepriceisn'tapropertyoftheiPod,thepriceisapropertyofyouand,someagreementthatwemakewitheachother?

Stephen:Let…

David:I'mtryingtofindanotherexample.

Stephen:Strictlyspeaking,yes.Imean,becausetheverysameiPodundereversoslightlydifferent

conditionswouldn'thavethatpropertyatall.Youknow,attheverymostit'savery,verycontingentpropertyofaniPodandapropertythatcanexistonlywithrespecttotheinteractionthatwehavewithourselves.

David:Agreedthatitonlymakessenseinthecontextoftheinteractionoftwopeople,it'sjust…

Stephen:Soletmebeclearerbecausealotoftheconfusionismenotbeingsufficientlyclear.

David:Itmightbemejustbeingthickheaded.

Stephen:No,itisn't,becauseeveryoneelseisinthesamestateofconfusionregardingmyremarks.

That'sasign.It'sasignIseealot.

Becauseapartoftheproblemis,Iusedaverygeneraltermlike‘property’,right?Andofcourseanythingcanhaveproperties,right?Thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingwhite,right?Andsopropertyisoneofthosewords,it'sveryopenended,youcanuseit,thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingownedby

me,right?SowhatI'mtryingtogetatwithmyremarksisnotthatthecupispropertyfree.Thatwouldbesilly,right?Andit'snoteventhesensethatthecupcannothavepropertiesthatarespecifictomyowningofthecup.Thatistrue.

ButIhavepropertieswithrespecttothiscupthatthiscupcannothavewithrespecttome.Wecan

createinverseproperties,Iownthiscup,thiscupisownedbyme,right?ButIcan'tgivethiscupthesamepropertythatIhave.Iownthiscup.IcannotsaythiscupownsmebecauseI'mahuman,I'mthe

sortofthinginthisworldthatcanownthings.Wehavetwothingsthatcanownthings,well,threeifyoucountgovernments.Persons,corporationsandgovernments,right?Idon'tthinkthereisanythingelsethatcanownthings.Cupscan'townthings,right?

Wecometofree.I'mapersonthatcanbefree.Mycupcan'tbefree.Youknow,freedomisn'tthesort

ofpropertyweattachtoacup.

David:Freedomofaction,freedomofspeech…

Stephen:Yeah.

David:…freedomof…

Stephen:Theonlysenseinwhichthewordfreemakessenseiswithrespecttoprice,right?

David:Mmmhmm.

Stephen:Icouldsay,now,andallofasuddenourlogicinverts,right?Thiscuphasnoprice.Thiscupisfree,okay,thatmakessensebutnowIcan'tsayofmeIhavenoprice.I'mnotthesortofthing,atleast

underourcurrentlaws,thankgoodness,Iamnotthesortofthingthatcanhaveaprice.Okay?

Sothere'sadisconnect,afundamentaldisconnectbetweenusingthewordfreetorefertoboththepersonandthecontent.

Itmustmeandifferentthings.Sowecan'tsimplysaythefreedomoftheuserversusthefreedomofthecontent.They'redifferentconcepts.Theymustbedifferentconceptsbecausecontentisn'tthesortof

thingthatcanbefreeinthewayahumancanbefree.

David:SoshallIrestate?

Stephen:Goforit.

David:Soinsteadofsayingthattherearesomepeoplewhoprivilegethefreedomofthecontentlet'ssaytherearesomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttheongoinglicensingstatusofthecontentandallitsderivatives.

Stephen:Right.

David:Okay?Andthereareotherpeoplewhocaremoreaboutthefreedomoftheuser,let'ssaythere

aresomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsauserhaswithregardstocontentoranyofitsderivatives.Whataretheyallowedtodowithit?

Stephen:Yousee,Istillwanttorepresentthisasaclashbetweentherightsofthepersonwhohasownershipofthecontent...

David:Ofwhichweassumethere'sone.

Stephen:Right.

David:Wellthere's…

Stephen:Forthesakeofargument.

David:(…)Okay.Andthenthere'severybodyelseintheworld.

Stephen:Sure.

David:Okay.

Stephen:Okay.So,thepeoplewhoarguethatthenon‐commercialclausepromotesmorefreedomarethepeoplewhoaremostconcernedwiththerightsofthepeoplewhocurrentlyhavethecontent,whocurrentlyownthecontent.

David:Arethere‐nowyou,nowyoureallyaregoingtothinkI'manidiot‐aretherepeoplewhoargue

thatlicencesthatuseNCaremorefreethanonesthatdon't?

Stephen:Yes,me.That'swhywe'rehavingadispute.

David:Okay.

Stephen:That's,that's…

David:Ireallyamdisconnected.

Stephen:Well,likeIsaid,youknow,itgoesbacktome.It'saquestionofperspective.

David:Okay,sorestatewhatyoujustsaid,peoplewhocare,peoplewhoargueinfavouroftheNClicence.

Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicence.

David:OhagainsttheNClicence,okay.

Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicencearepeoplewhocarepredominantlyaboutthe

freedomofthosepeoplewhocurrentlyhaveorownthecontent.

David:Okay.

Stephen:Thecontentprovidersifyouwill,quote‐unquote.

David:Andforthesakeofargumentlet'stalkabouttheauthorandeveryoneelseintheworld,justtokeepit,Irealiseit'smorenuancedthanthat,butjusttokeepit…

Stephen:It'saterminologicalconventionthatwe'reusing.

David:…tokeepitcleanlet'ssay‘peoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsoftheauthor.’

Stephen:Right,(…)it'sonlyaconventionbecauseasyouknow,mostofthepeoplewhohavetheselicencesarenotinfacttheactualauthor.Right?

David:Understood.

Stephen:Myperspectiveistheperspectiveofthepersonwhodoesnotyethaveaccesstothatcontent.

David:Everybodyintheworldexcepttheauthor.

Stephen:Everyone…

David:Inourcaricature

Stephen:Inourcaricature,everyoneelseintheworldexcepttheauthor.

David:Okay.

Stephen:Okay.Theydonothaveaccesstothecontent.

David:Untiltheauthordecidestolicenseittotheminsomeway.

Stephen:Right.

David:Right.

Stephen:Okay.Now,tothosepeople…

David:...whocareabouteveryoneelseintheworldmorethantheauthor...

Stephen:Right.Iftheperson,iftheauthorchargesmoneyforthecontent,thecontentisnotfree.Soalicencewhichallowstheauthortochargemoneyforthecontentislessfreethanalicencewhichdoes

notallowtheauthortochargemoneyforthecontent(youseewhythewordauthor'ssomisleadinghere)?

David:WellIthinkthereallyproblematicwordistheword“allow,”becausethere'snolicencethatdisallowstheauthorfromchargingmoneyforthecontent.

Stephen:Yeah,wellagainthat'stheuseoftheword“author,”hasthrownusoff,right?That'swhyIsay

“thepersonwhoiscurrentlyinpossessionofthecontent”.

David:Yeah,butthere'snolicencethatpreventsthepersonwhoistherightsholder,there'snolicencethatpreventsthatpersonfromchargingmoney.

Stephen:Agreed.Iunderstandthat.

David:ButIthink,Ithoughtwhatyoujustsaidwasthat...

Stephen:Buttherearelicencesthatpreventpeoplewhohavethecontentfromchargingmoneyfromit,forit.

David:Youmeaneverybodyelseintheworld,oncetheygetaccesstoit,chargingforit?

Stephen:Right.

David:Okay,yes.

Stephen:Sotheauthorisaverysingularcase,right?

David:Let'ssaythe‘rightsholder’insteadofthe‘author’.

Stephen:Let'ssaythe‘rightsholder’insteadofthe‘author’becauseit,youknow...

David:Itcouldbeacorporation.

Stephen:Yeah,becausethereisthismythicalpre‐licencestatethatcontentmayhave,youknow,andeventhatisnotagiven,right?Imeanlikewemadeadecisionasasociety,Idon'tknow,twenty,twenty‐five,thirtyyearsagotochangethedefaultfrom,youknow,contentthatcomesintotheworld

doesnothavealicencetocontentthatcomesintotheworlddoeshavealicencebydefault,allrightsreserved,right?Thatwasn'talwaysthecase.But,youknow,Icanimaginesocietiesinwhichyoucannot

sellthecontentunlessgrantedspecialpermission,say,soeventhat'snotoutsidetherealmofpossibility.Youknow,thecaricaturecommunistsocietiesthatsomepeoplerepresent,“Ohthere'snoproperty,youcan'tsellanything,”right?Youknow,wecanpicturethatsoit'snotunimaginable.Butthe

conventionofsocietytodayisthatapersonwhocreatescontent,createsprettymuchanything,cansellit.

David:Sowhatisthedisagreementbetweenyouandme?Iwouldliketoknow.

Stephen:Allright.Youarguethat‐well,I'veseenyouargueitandifIhavetoI'lllookitup‐everyoneshouldlicencetheircontentunder,notunderanon‐commercialclause.

David:Ihavearguedthatinthepast.

Stephen:Youhavearguedthat.Whydon'tyoustatethatargumentsothatit'saccuratelyrepresented?

David:Yeah,goodidea.AndIwillstate…

Stephen:CosI'vebeentryingtofishitandjustwant,let'sbringitout.

David:And,soI'mgoingtoaddsomenuancetoitaswellhopefully.

Stephen:Ilovenuance.

David:Solet'sgobackelevenyearsbecauseyoucanactuallyblameme(wellnotjustme,I'mgoingto

throwsomeoftheblameonEricRaymondhereaswell).

Stephen:Sure.

David:Butthereisahandfulofusyoucanblameforthenon‐commercialclause,andit'snotLarryandit'snot(JamieBoyle?)oranyofthoseotherpeopleatCreativeCommons.Thisallhasitsrootsinthe(OPAL?)okay?

Stephen:Andthenon‐commercialclausewouldhavehadtoofbeeninvented…

David:Atsomepoint.

Stephen:…iftheyhadn'tofdoneitbecauseyoulookatthesurveys,thebigthingthateveryone'sconcernedaboutisyouknow,peopletakingtheirstuffandsellingit.

David:Sothat'spartofthestoryIwanttotell.

Stephen:Right.

David:Soaswestarteddoing...sothere'sactuallyalicencebeforetheOPALinninety‐ninecalledtheopencontentlicencewhichwasjusttheGNUchangedaroundtotakeallthesoftwarespecificlanguage

outbutcontentlanguagein.AndIpromotedthatforalittlebitoftimeandtheneventuallybeingan

academicIthoughtIreallywantjournalsandtextbooksandotherthingslikethistousetheselicences.SoIguessIneedtotalktoapublisheratsomepointtofindoutwhattheirconcernswillbeifthe

journalsevertoadoptanopenlicencelikethisorifatextbookisevergoingto.Bestcasescenario,(something)everybodyintheworldcanunderstand.Who'sapublisherthatunderstandsopennessbetterthananybodyelse?I'mgoingtotalktoTimO'Reilly.

SoinconversationswithTimandAndy(Orham?)whowasa,andIthinkstillisaneditorthere,andthen

withEricRaymondandsomeotherpeople,therearefourorfiveofusinthisconversation.“Tim,ifyouweregoingtoopenlylicenceabook,whatwouldittakeforyoutobewillingtoputabookunderanopenlicence?”OrmaybeitwasAndywhoresponded.Anyway,thequestion'sdirectedatO'ReillyCorp.

Stephen:sure.

David:Youknow,whatwouldittake?Andtheresponsewas,“Well,there'salotof,itcostsalotof

moneytofindauthors,tosupporttheminwritingcontent,togetitcopyeditedwell,tolayitout,itcostsalotofmoneytodoallthisupfrontstuff.Andwhatwewouldn'tbewillingtodoiswewouldn'tbewillingtomakethatbiginvestmentonthefrontendandthenhaveBob'spublishingdowntheroadjust

photocopyourbookandsellittendollarscheaperthanusafterwecomeouttomarketbecausewemakealltheinvestmentandthenwe'renotabletorecoupanyofourcosts.”

Stephen:Right.

David:Sotheopenpublicationlicencehadaclausethatsaid,whichyoucouldchoosetoinvokeornot,youcannottakethismaterialandpublishitintraditionalprintformforaprofit.Youcantrytosellit

digitally,youcantryanddowhatever,butthiswasalicencetargetedspecificallyatpublishersandwhattheywantedprotectionfromwasprintundercuttingbythenextguydowntheroadbecausetheyfeltlikeiftheymadealltheinvestmentinthebooktheyshouldhavesomeabilitytotrytorecoupthatcost

andbedefendedfromotherpeopleundercuttingtheminsomeway.

Stephen:Wellletmejuststopthatbecausethat'saveryfunnysortofthingbecauseitallowsthemtoprintitoutanddistributeitforfreewhichisasmuchundercuttingasit'spossibletodobutassoonas

theychargeonecentforit,whichislessundercutting,thenthey'reviolatingthelicence.

David:Right,right.

Stephen:It'saninterestinghistoryofit,isn'tit?

David:InfactIthinkyoucouldprobably,youcouldprobablyprintitoutandchargeyourcostforprintingandbeincompliancewiththelicence,Ijustdon'tthinkyoucouldsellaprintedcopyforaprofit.

Stephen:Soit'sprotectionfromtheotherprofitmakingentities.

David:Right.

Stephen:So…

David:Notprotectionfrompeoplethatjustwanttosharewitheachotheror,that'snotwhothey'retryingtoprotectthemselvesfrom.

Stephen:WhichIthinkisreallysignificant.

David:Yeah,andsomethingthatgotlostinthetranslationfromtheopenpublicationlicencewhichhas

averyspecificaudienceandtargetofbookpublishers(journal?)publishers,whateverintoa,becausetheclausesintheOPALwereattribution,derivativesornotandnon‐commercialor,youknow,thisprintforprofitprintrestriction.

Stephen:Soyou'resayingLawrenceLessigdidn'tjustinventallofthisfromscratch?

David:AndneitherdidI,youknow,EricRaymondhelped,theguysatO'Reillyhelped,whatever,but

whenyoutakethatandyougeneraliseitupaleveltosay“Nowwe'regoingtomakeagenerallicence,definewhatyoucan'tdo,youcan'tdoanythingcommercial.”Youknow,thenitgetstobe,youdon'tunderstandwhy,it'sconfusing,whatever,IthinkthatclauseinOPALmadealotofsense.There'sa

reasonforit,there'sapopulationthatsaidtheywanteditandtomeaskindofthedriverbehindthelicenceitwaslook,ifthat'swhatpublisherswant,thatifthere'snot,noneoftheircontent'severgoingtobecomeopen,thenthat'saconcessionthatweneedtomaketothemsothatatleastpeoplecan

shareforfreeallthestuffthattheyhaveevenifotherpeoplecan'ttrytosellit.

Stephen:Right.

David:I'mnevergoingtobeapublisher,whatever,wasmythinkingatthetime,right?Sowiththatasbackground,there'sthenon‐commercialclauseintheCreativeCommonslicences[and]therearepeoplethathaveamoralissuewiththeclause.IwishIcouldgettothepointofhavingamoralissue

withtheclausebutthere'ssomanytechnicalproblemswiththeclausethatIcan'tevengetroundtohavingamoralissuewithitbecausenooneknowswhatitmeansandifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,

howcanIhaveamoralissuewithit,exceptmaybeIhatethingsthatarevague,morally,youknow.

SotherearepeoplewhomakeanargumentthatsaysifthatlicenceisgoingtopreventmefromsellingataprofitthenwhenI'mtryingtostartmylittlemicrofranchisebusinessinJo'burgorsomeplace,sellingcopiesofCreativeCommonsmaterial,whatyou'retellingmeisit'sokayifIlosemoneydoingthat

oryou'retellingmeit'sokayifIjustbreakevendoingthatbutwhatyou'retellingmeisI'mnotallowedtomakealivingformyselfbyhelpingotherpeoplegetaccesstothismaterial.

Stephen:Funnywayofputtingthat.

David:Butthat'stheargument,right?Iwanttoprintthisstuffout,Iwanttodothisserviceforpeople,I,ifI'mgoingtospendallmytimedoingthatandI'mnotgoingtobegrowingmygardenordoing

whateverelse,I'dliketoatleastbeabletoeatoffofthatactivity,andyournon‐commercialclauseismorallyreprehensiblebecauseitmeansthatIcan'tmakealivingtryingtohelppeoplegetaccesstothismaterial.That'sthemoralityargumentaroundnon‐commercial.

Stephen:Okay,canwedealwiththatquicklyfirst,dispensewith?

David:You'rewelcometohaveago,sure.

Stephen:Well,becauseIhearthatonealotandyouknowitmakesmesoundlikethebigmeanguywho'stryingtopreventpeoplefrommakingagooftheirlivesinSouthAfricaandlike,youknow,which

isn'tmeatall.ButimaginealawthatsaidIcan'tgointoyourappleorchardandtakeyourapplesandgoontothestreetandsellthem,alright?

David:Don'twehavethatlaw?

Stephen:Wedo,butthatlawpreventsmefrommakingabusinessofsellingyourapplesforprofit.Nowthere'sreasonswhywehavethatlaw,right?Like,foronething,they'reyourapples.

David:Right.

Stephen:And,youknow,oneofthefundamentalprinciplesofpropertylawisthat,youknow,property

iscontinuousuntilvoluntarilydischarged,mostly.Inotherwords,youknow,youcan'tstealotherpeople'sproperty.Sothat'sfind,we'reallprettycomfortablewiththatlaweventhoughitmeanssomebodycan'tmakealivingsellingyourapples,right?Andnobodysays,Ithink,thatwearelessfree

becausesomeguycan'tcomeandtakeyourapplesandsellthem.Infactwe'dsaytheopposite,wearemorefreebecausewecanhavesecurityinourownpersonandproperty,right?

Sothemoralargumentdoesn'tcarryweighthereinthatthere'sanynumberofthingsyoucan'tdoinordertomakealiving.Youknow,wedon'twantpeopletopractisepiracyoffthecoastofSomalia,

right?Althoughfromtheperspectiveofthepirates,we'rejustimpingingontheireffortstomakealiving.SoshouldthepeopleinJohannesburghavethecapacitytomakealivingforthemselves?Sure.Absolutely.ThatmoralprincipleIgrant.Shouldthatcapacityextendtothesellingofthesethings?No,

thatdoesn'tfollow.Sothemoralityonlycomesintoplayinsofarasitaddressestheneedofapersontomaketheirownliving,butitdoesn'textendtotheneedofapersontomaketheirownlivinginthisway.

David:Iwillmakeanoteandthenleaveittotheside.

Stephen:Okay.

David:Thatyourargumentsaroundrealpropertymakesenseinthecaseofrealpropertybutinthecase

of,Iwon'tevensaytheotherphrase,inthecaseofdigitalmaterialswhichIcanmakeaperfectcopyofatnolosstoyou,Ithinkthatargumentbecomesproblematic.

Stephen:Well…

David:Idon'tknowthatthat'swhatwewanttospendourtimearguingaboutthough.

Stephen:No.

David:ButIdowanttobringitup.AndIthinktheotherpieceofthisis,yes,therearelawsbydefaultthatsayIcan'twalkinanddowhateverbuthere'samovementofpeoplewhoclaimtobeopenand

claimtowanttoshareandthey'recreatingthesespeciallicencesinordertodothisthingandwellnow

you'reabighypocritebecauseyou'reassociatingyourselfwiththismovementthat'sallaboutopennessandloveandwhateverandnowyou'reputtingthisparticularrestrictiononme.Mostproblematic

becauseyou'reinviolationofoneofthetenrulesofBruce(Perren's?)definitionofopensource,whichisnon‐discriminationagainstgroupsofpersonsorfieldsofendeavouroroneofthesethings,andbecausethoseareasetoftencommandmentsthatweholdinviolate,ifyoudiscriminateagainsta

groupofpeoplewhowanttomakealivingwithaparticularclauseinyourlicence,youhavebroken,youknow,you'renotinconformancewiththeopensourcedefinitionwhichweholdsacredandholyandthoseprinciplesshouldbeinviolateandyou'reviolatingthemsoyou'reanimmoralperson.That'sthe

kindofthinking.

Stephen:Iknow,Iunderstandthethinking.Idon'tthinkthat,wellit'scertainlynotalineofreasoningIwouldacceptforavarietyofreasonandthewayyou'representingitIdon'tthinkyouacceptiteither.

David:Yeah,soletmecomebacktoaccuratelystatingmypointofview.SoI'vearguedagainstthenon‐commercialclauseinthepast.Idon'tknow,Idon'tthink,althoughIwouldbehappytobeproven

wrong,Idon'tthinkI'veeverarguedagainstitonmoralgrounds.IthinkI'vealwaysarguedagainstitontechnicalgrounds.Ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans…

Stephen:Well,youhaveadvancedtheargumentontechnicalgrounds,noquestionaboutthat.

David:Yeah,ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,whywouldweadoptthisclause?IfIdon'tknowifyoucancomebackandsuemeornotorifsomeoneelsecanorwhateveryouknow,iftheauthorofthelicence

can'ttellmewhatthisclausemeans,whichtheycan't,thenwhywillIfeelcomfortabletryingtoprotectmyinformationwiththisinstrumentthatevenitscreatordoesn'tknowhowitfunctions?Allweknowisthatthere'ssomecommonsenseagreeduponnotionofwhatcommercialmeansthatweshouldall

assumeeveryoneelseisgoingtohavethesamedefinition,whichwedoknowtheydon't,basedonthestuffthat'scomingoutofthesurveythatCreativeCommonsisdoing(“whatdoesnon‐commercialmean

toyou”),andit'snotoneunifiedvoicespeakingclearlyaboutwhatcommercialisationmeans.SoI'mjustgoingtotrustthatwehavethesamedefinitionofcommercialandnon‐commercialandwhenIlicenseittoyouthisway,you'regoingtodobasicallywhatIassumedyouwereandifyoudon't,whatrecoursedo

Ihaveifeventhepeoplethatcreatedtheinstrumentcan'ttellmewhatrestrictionI'veactuallyplacedonmymaterialotherthansomeveryhighlevelcommonsenseykindof…?

Stephen:Well,ifyouputthatconstraint,let'saddressthisatacertainmeta‐levelfirst.

David:Allright.

Stephen:Becauseifyouputthatconstraintonthingsthennobodycandoanything.OrmaybeIshouldusethat,usesomething.Suppose,say,Igiveyouthiscamera,alright?Solet'spretend,andI'mnot

actuallydoingit.

David:No,it'sonvideo,you'regivingmethecamera.

Stephen:Okay,so…

David:It'sminenow.

Stephen:…let'spretend,okay,thatIsay“Iamgivingyouthiscamera.”Now,doIknowwhatthatmeans?Doyouknowwhatthatmeans?

David:Itmeansit'smine.Mytwoyearold,sorry,Ihaveyoungkids.

Stephen:Well,yeah,but…

David:It'smine!

Stephen:Butthat'sfine,right?

David:Uhhuh.

Stephen:Nowassoonaswe'vepushedthiswecangetintosomenuance.Forexample,unknowntome,

Ihavegivenyouthecamerawiththeflashmemorystillinitandwithpicturesontheflashmemory.HaveIgivenyouthosepictures?

David:Givenmeanswhat?

Stephen:Exactly.

David:You'vetransferredthemtomephysically.

Stephen:Yeah,but,but…

David:Butyouholdthecopyrightonthemastheirauthor.

Stephen:SomaybeIhaven'tgiventhemtoyou.

David:Right.

Stephen:Soassoonas,yousee,youcan'tjustsay,“Wellbecausewedon'tknowwhatitmeanswecan'tdoit.”Right?Thatargumentdoesn'thold.

David:Iwoulddisagreeinthecontextoflicensing.Imeanthat's…

Stephen:Whatismorebasictolicensingthanthetransferofacamerafrompersontoanother?

David:…fifteen,twenty,fortypageslongbecausetheycovereverysynonym,everypossibility,everywhateversothatnorightthinkingpersoncanstandinfrontofwhoever,standinfrontofyoulikethisandsay“Oh,whenitsaidpromises,covenants,contracts,agreements,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,

blah,blah,blah,whatever,Ididn'trealiseitmeantthisthingthatIsaidIwoulddo.”

Stephen:Okay,youknowandIknowthatwhentheysay“Ididn'trealise,”they'relying,right?AndyouknowandIknowthatthelicences,thethirty,fortypagesaremechanismstoallowforthiskindoflyingtobecomeinstitutionalised.BecauseyouknowandIknowIgiveyouthecamera,that'saperfectly

straightforwardtransactionthatdoesnotinfactneedfortypages.AndyouknowandIknowthatadefinitionofnon‐commercial,verysimplelikeyoucan'tmakemoneyoffofitissomethingthatyouandI

canbothunderstandinlessthanaparagraphofdefinition.

David:Idisagree.So…

Stephen:Butnotreasonably.

David:No,IbelieveIreasonablydo.Soforexample,Itake…

Stephen:I'mtakingmycameraback.See,Ididn'treallygiveittoyou.

David:Youdidn'treallygiveittome.

Stephen:Sure,so…

David:Soforexampleyou,ifItookyourcontentfromyourwebsite,reproduceditonmyownwebsite,ranGoogleadsonthatwebsite…

Stephen:Thenyou'remakingmoneyoffit.

David:ButnotifIonlyrunads'tilI'vecoveredmyhostingcostsforthemonthbecausethecostformetoprovidethatcontenttotheworldismyhostingcostssoIdon'tprofituntilI'vecoveredmycost.So

I'monlygoingtoselladsuntilI'vemadethesevenninety‐fiveamonththatIneedtopayformyhostingandnowIhaven'tprofitedfromyourcontent,allI'vedoneiscovermycosttoprovideittootherpeople.HaveIuseditcommerciallynowornot?

Stephen:Sowhenyoumakeyoursevenninety‐fiveyou'regoingtotaketheadsoffor…

David:Yeah.

Stephen:...you'regoingtotellGoogle“stoppayingmenow”?

David:No,I'mjustgoingto…

Stephen:Doesanybodyeveractuallydothat?

David:WhatI'msayingis…

Stephen:Becausewe,youknowaswellasIdothat…

David:No,no,no.

Stephen:…theadsdon'tjustcoverthehostingcost.

David:Alotoftimestheydon'tevencoverthehostingcostbutthisis…

Stephen:ThatisGoogle,yeah.

David:Thisisoneofthemainpointsofargumentinthecommunity.AmI,ifIcovermycosts,amImakingacommercialuseornot?

Stephen:Right.

David:Andit,there'sverylargegroupsoneithersidewhosay“Yes,ifyou,ifapennycomestoyouasa

resultofyouruseofthatcontentyou'vemadeacommercialuse.”Andthere'sanothergroupofpeoplethatsays“Look,ifItakeitdowntoKinko’sandtheychargemethirtydollarstoprintitalloutandIpaythemjusttocoverthecostforprintingorwhatever,that'snotacommercialusebecausetheyhaven't

profited.”Andthereare,there'saveryreasonable,rightthinkingdisagreementaboutthis.IfIcovermycost,isthatacommercialuseornot?IfIprintitoutforyouandcharge,orifIburnRedHattoadvd,wellRedHat'ssoftware.Anyway,iscoveringmycostacommercialuseornot?Theworld'ssortof

evenlysplitonthatquestionsowhenyoulicenceyourstuffwithNClicenceyouhopethepeoplethatuseitaretheoneswhoagreewithyourviewoftheworldandabouthalfofthemmaybedon't.

Stephen:No.But,no,it'snotthatsimple.See,your,howdoIwanttopresentthis?Thesimplefactthatsomepeoplethinkcoveringyourcostsmakesitacommercialactivitydoesn'tentailthatinfactcovering

yourcostsmakesitacommercialactivity.SoIdon'tneedtodefendtheperspectivethatcertainpeoplehavesimplybecausetheyhaveit.Ithinkthatshouldbeclear.

David:ButyouunderstandthatwhentheyseetheNCclauseonyourblog,that'swhatthey'regoingtounderstandittomeanandthey'regoingtogocovertheircosts,they'regoingtogogeneraterevenue

fromyourcontentandyou'reokaywiththat?

Stephen:Generate,well,but…

David:Notprofit,revenue.

Stephen:Butthethingis,okay,let'sbackup,let'sbackup,okay?

David:Andtheworstpartofmystory'syettocomeso…

Stephen:No,no,no,I'mfinebecause,themistakethat'sbeingmadewiththissortofcharacterisationisthepresumptionthatwecandistinguishbetweencommercialandnon‐commercialusingsomeessential

featureoftheactivity,right?It'scommercialbecauseyoudidthis.It'snon‐commercialbecauseyoudidnotdothis,right?So,andinthiscasewehavethecasewhereapersonissaying“It'scommercialbecausetheychargedmoney,”asopposedto“It'scommercialbecausetheymademoney.”Okay?Buta

commonsenseunderstandingofcommercialisn'tonebasedonthisonefactor.

David:No,therearemanyotherfactorstheydisagreeonaswell.

Stephen:Yeah,but,buttheconcept“commercial”isacombinationofalargenumberofpractices,oneofwhichis‘makingmoney’,anotherofwhichis,say,‘derivingalivelihoodfrom’,anotherofwhichis‘settingyourselfupasacertainkindofentity’,aka,acompanyoracorporation.DoyouseewhatI

mean?AndIarguethatareasonablepersonwho'snotcaughtuponthisonefactordefinitionofcommercialcanlookatanactivityandsaywhetherornotit'scommercial.

David:Soit'sapornographytest?It's“IknowitwhenIseeitbutit'simpossibletodefineaheadof

time?”

Stephen:Exactly.

David:Isthatwhatyou'resaying?

Stephen:Anditisamistaketoattempttodefineitaheadoftime,andevenmoresignificantlytheattempttodefineitinvariablyleadstoloopholesthatareusedbypeopleattemptingtosubverttheintentofthedefinition.Youknow,“It'snotreallycommercialbecauseeventhoughI'vesetupa

companyandeventhoughI'mchargingmoney,IhadsuchabadyearIdidn'tmakeadimesoit'snotcommercial.”It'sjust,youknow,“Ourcompanylostfiftymilliondollarslastyearsoit'snotcommercial.”Right?Wellweknowwhatcommercialiswhenwelookatit.Andwehaveagoodcommonsense

understandingofthedistinctionbetweenaprivatedomainandevenaphilanthropicdomainandacommercialdomain.Andthesearesufficientlywellunderstoodthatwedon'tneedtoappealtoacertainnecessaryorsufficientconditiontoestablishthatitisso.

David:Sotwocomments,thebrieferonefirst.Itseemslikeifyoucan'tdefineasetofpermissionsthen

it'soddtotrytoputtheminadocumentwhichspecifiesthepermissionsthatyou'regrantingtoapersonifyoucan'tdefinewhatthepermissionsare.

Stephen:Thepermissionisyoucan'tusethiscommercially.Your,ifImaysay,errorissayingthatmyconditionisreductivetoanadditionalsetofconditions.Thereisnoreductiontoanothersetof

conditions.Right?Thereisonlyusingitcommerciallyornotusingitcommercially.Andthenyouusethetestofreasonableness,thewaywedoinlaw,todecide,right?

David:So,so…

Stephen:Nobodywouldeversaytheftconsistsofthisandthisandthisandthisaction.Firsthehasto

breakintothestore,thenhehastoactuallypickupthe,youknow,youdon'tdothat.Youlookatthetotalityofhisactionsandyouask,wasthattheft?

David:SotakeCreativeCommonsitself,theorganisation.TakeMITOpenCourseWare,bothofwhomwewouldthinkofasbeingreasonableentities,intelligentpeople,theyevenshareacommonboard

member,etcetera.SoyoucangototheMITopencoursewarewebpage‐andI'llgetitwrongifIdon'tsopermitmejustafewseconds‐YougototheMITopencoursewarewebpageandreadontheirtermsofusewhatnon‐commercialmeansandtheysaynon‐commercial,thecommercialversusnon‐

commercialjudgementhasnothingtodowiththeuserandthenatureoftheuserwhetherit'sanindividualorforprofitornon‐profitorwhatever,it'sallaboutthenatureoftheuse.Okay,soitiscompletelypossibleforIBMtouseMITOpenCourseWarelicensedstuffforinternaltraining,for,well

internaltrainingcoversalotofstuff,orientation,fortrainingtheirownpeoplebecausethey'renotouttheretryingtoprofitfromit.They're,sothey'renotusingitcommercially.

Stephen:Sure.

David:AtCreativeCommons,it'sdefinedbythenatureoftheuse,notthenatureoftheusers.

Stephen:That'sfine.

David:Now,onCreativeCommonswebsiteforaperiodoftime,althoughuntil,onceIpointeditoutitwasquicklytakendown,therewasaroughdefinition,here'swhatwethinknon‐commercialusemeans.

Itsaidithasnothingtodowiththenatureoftheuse,it'sabouttheuser.Soareyouaforprofitcorporation?Yes?There'snopossiblewayyoucanmakeanon‐commercialuse.Areyouaneducationalinstitution,alibrary,whatever,andtherewasthisflowchart.

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Andherearetwovery,Ithink,veryreasonablegroupsofpeoplewhohavethemost

fundamental,youcouldn'thaveadisagreementmorecontradictoryaboutthedefinitionofnon‐commercialusethantheydid.Onesaid“It'snotaboutX,it'saboutY,”andtheothersaid“It'snotaboutY,it'saboutX.”Andthesearetwo,Ithink,veryreasonable,intelligentgroups.SoIdon'tthinkwecan

appealtoacommonsenseunderstandingbecauseevenintelligent,reasonablegroupsthatsharepeopleontheboardcometotheexactoppositeconclusionaboutwhatnon‐commercialmeans.

Stephen:Wellifyou'regoingtostartreducingnon‐commercialtothesecomponentparts,you'regoingtogetthatkindofdisagreement,right?Lookatthewayyousetitup.Right,Ijustfinishedsayingthere

arenosubpartstonon‐commercial,yousaid“Welllookatthisexamplewheretherearesubparts,therewasaproblem.”Wellyeah.Right?Becausesomebodymade…

David:Reasonablepeoplearethinkinginsubparts.Creativecommonsisthinkingaboutthelicencethattheyofferinsubparts.MITopencoursewareisthinkingaboutthelicencetheyadoptedinsubparts.

Stephen:Anditis…

David:Whetherwewantthemtoornot,eventhepeoplethatcreatedthelicencethinkaboutitinthoseways.

Stephen:Reasonablepeoplecanthinkaboutthingsinsubpartsbutyoucan'ttakethatreasoningtobecomedefinitiveoftheconceptthatyou'reattemptingtoworkwith,right?Isaytoyou,“Youruseof

mystuffwascommercial.”Yousay,“Wellwhatdoyoumeanitwascommercial?”Isay,“Welllook,youdidthis,youdidthis,youdidthis.”Right?Thatdoesn'tsuddenlyconstituteadefinitionofcommercial.WhatI'mdoingisdrawingouttheevidencewhichtomesuggeststhatitwascommercial.

So,youknow,everythingwasfine,youknow,ifyoustartsaying,“welllookatthenatureofthe

institution,lookatthenatureoftheuse,right?”Andpeoplewouldwritethisdown,awellmeaningpersonwrote“non‐commercialcompany”ontheCreativeCommonswebsite.Finesolongashedoesthat,butassoonashesay“Ohthat'swhatwemeanthat'sdefinitiveofcommercial,”that'swherethe

problemcomesin.Andthat'swheretheproblem'salwaysgoingtocomeinwhenyoutrytodefinetheseintosubsetsofnecessaryandsufficientconditions,becausethesearecomplexconcepts.

David:Soyou're,you,atadeeplevel,you'reactuallyhappyandthinkit'sapreferredstatetohavethe

definitionbe,tohavenon‐commercialbeundefined?

Stephen:RightandinfactIwouldgofurther.Themoreyoudefineit,themoreyouhavecreatedroomforabuseofit.Thecrooksdependonyoudefiningitbecauseit'sthecrooksthatarelookingfortheseloopholes,right?

David:Butifyoudon'tdefineityoudon'thaveanyguaranteethatwhenyougotocourtthatanything

willhappen.Youcanpresentanargumentthatyouthinkisreasonabletoyoubutitalldependsonwho'ssettingupthereandyoumight…

Stephen:Wellifyoudon'thaveamilliondollarlawyeryoudon'thaveanyguaranteebutthatdoesn'tmeanhavingamilliondollarlawyerispartofthedefinitionofnon‐commercial.Youknow,Imean,there

arenoguaranteeswhenwegotocourt,period.

David:ButIthoughtlicencesweresupposedtobeaboutgivingmeconfidenceandgivingmeguaranteesthatIdohaverightstodocertainthings.

Stephen:Wellthat'spartofthecon.Toputitbluntly,that'spartofthecon,right?It'spartofthis,youknow,it'spartofthelegalisticcon,it'spartofthecommercialcon,right?YouknowandIknowina

commonsensesortofway,whensomebody'stakingyourstuffandusingitcommercially.Weknow,weseeit,wecanrecogniseit.

David:WellwhenIthinkthey'reusingitcommerciallybuttheymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.

Stephen:Andiftheyare,andthenifthereis,well,theymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.

David:Andtheymayberightthink',ImightbeCreativeCommons,theymightbeMITOCW,wemight

betworightthinkingpeoplewithverydifferentdefinitionsandIcandisapproveandtheycansay“No,thewaywereadit,thisis...”

Stephen:ButIwouldsuggestthatthat'sverymuchtheminorityofthecasesandIthinkthatthosearethesortsofcaseswherethereisagenuinedisagreementthenyousitdownaroundthetableorifthe

stakesarehighenoughinaformalenvironmentlikeacourtroomandyougetabunchofotherreasonablepeople,youtalkaboutit,youthinkaboutitandthen…

David:Andthenyougetprecedentandnow...

Stephen:Andyou'vecreatedcommonlawbecauseprecedentguidesbutitdoesnotdefine.

David:Soletmecomeroundtothemostdistastefulpartofmystory...

Stephen:Ohgoody.

David:…ofallwhichisthataftermakingalltheargumentsI'vejustmadearoundnon‐commercial,FlatWorldKnowledge13,thetextbookcompanythatIworkwith,usesthenon‐commercialclauseontheir

textbooks.

Stephen:Becauseyou’reapublisher…

David:AfterallthoseargumentsIjustmadeabouthowundefinedandwhateverelseitis,becausethat'sthebestmechanismavailabletous,themostwidelyrecognised,themostwhatever,tosharethisinthewaywe'retryingtosharethismaterialwiththeworld.There'snotabetterone.There'snotabetterone

that'saswellrecognisedbecausetome(andthisisprobablyaplacewherewealsohavesomeunspokendisagreement)thepointofthelicenceistocommunicateveryquicklytomeinabasicallyfrictionlesskindofwaywherethere'snoadditionalexchangeneeded,youhaveourpermissiontodo

thesethings.Youdon'tneedtoaskus,youdon'tneedtotalktous,we'vegivenyouallthesepermissionsrighthere.Runawayanddoallthesethingsandthepointof,insteadoftherebeingthirtyopenlicenceswithCreativeCommonsandGFDL?andOPALandwhateverelse,thattheusefulthing

abouttheworldstandardisingonadefactosetliketheCreativeCommonsonesisthatnowinsteadofhavingtounderstandthedifferencebetweentheBSDandtheApacheandGPLandwhatever,youknow,whenyouseeit,it'stheonethateverybodykindofuses,youknowwhatitmeans,youknowwhatrights

youhaveandyoucangoawayandbeconfidentinexercisingthoserights.

SoifFlatWorldhadcreatedsomeboutique,one‐offspeciallicenceforourtextbooks,evenifthelanguagehadalmostmirroredexactlyby(CreativeCommons)NC‐SA,peoplewouldlookatitandsay“SowhatamIallowedto...?”Imean,ifthey'dusedCreativeCommons,IwouldhaveknownwhatIwas

allowedtodobutnowyouknow,youusethisotherthing.

SoIguessItoldthatstoryatthebeginningaboutO'Reillytocomebackround,youknow,toFlatWorld.Textbookdevelopmentcostsalotofmoneyandtheywanttomakethosetextbooksandtheywantto

share,they'rewillingtosharethemwiththeworldforfreebuttheydon'twanttogetundercutinthecommercialmarketsotheyusethisnon‐commercialclausebecauseasbadasitis,it'sthebestthingwehaveavailable.

Stephen:Soifyouweresomebody,say,livinginJohannesburg,tryingtogetyourlittlemicropublishing

thingofftheground,reallythethingtodoistousethenon‐commerciallicence.

David:Ifthey'retryingtogetifofftheground,ifthey'retryingtosellcopiesofthings?

Stephen:Wellyeah.Becausethat'showtheyprotecttheirmarket.Because,asyousay,isn'tthatwhyO'Reillywanteditinthefirstplace?

David:Wait,youmeanifthatperson'sproducingtheirowntextbooksthentheyshould,theyshouldputthenon‐commercialclauseonit?

13http://www.flatworldknowledge.com/

Stephen:Well,ifthatpersonisattemptingtostartabusinesssothattheycansupportthemselves.I'mnottalkingaboutwhattheydo.

David:ButwhattheydoisimportantbecauseNConlyappliesifwhattheydoisthey'reproducing

content.

Stephen:Okay,so,nevermind.Let's…

David:Okay.

Paul:Wejusthaveacoupleofminutesbeforelunch,IthinkifIcanhearJack,aninterestingquestionseemstobearoundwhetherthenon‐commercialisallowingfinancialtransactionsofanykind.AndIknowfrommyownsituationthatanissuehascomeuparound,doeschargingtuitionforusinganOER

resourceconstitutecommercialuse?Eveninapubliclysubsidisedinstitutionwhereit'snotthatthey'reforprofitinstitutionandIjustwonderifyouwouldperhapswrapupthissegmentaroundsomeofthat.

Stephen:Yeah.Theshortanswerformeisyes.

Paul:Itconstitutescommercialuse?

Stephen:Yeah,nowthat'stheshortanswer.It'sinterestingbecause,youknow,education,whenweweretalkingaboutthedefinitionofcommercial,IrememberwhenDavid,youwantedtosetupan

educationalconditionunderCreativeCommons,rememberthat?

David:Waybackintheday,yeah.

Stephen:Yeah,andofcoursethequestionthereiswhatconstituteseducationaluseandthedefaultunderUSlawwassomethingalongthelinesofusebyaneducationalinstitution…

David:Orapersonaffiliatedwithone.

Stephen:Right,whichmeantthat,okay,it'sfreeforthepeoplewhopaidtuitionbutthepeoplewhodidn'tpaytuition,thereforewerenotpartofaneducationalinstitutioncouldn'tuseit.Whichislikea

nightmarescenario.It'sinstitutionalisingtheexistenceoftheseeducationalinstitutionsthatchargetuition.

David:Whichiswhyweabandonedthatoncewegottotheproblem.

Stephen:Originally,itwouldhavebeenniceif,nevermind.BecauseyouknowIneverdidgettheemail

saying“Youwereright,”butthat's…

David:I'msureyouwererightatsomepoint,Iwilladmit.

Stephen:Butwhenwelookateducationalinstitutions,andofcoursethesituationisverydifferentinCanadathanintheUS,nonetheless,torepresenttheseinthenormalcourseoftheirbusinessasnon‐commercialentitieswouldbeamisrepresentation.Iknowtheyare,quoteunquote,“nonprofit,”butI

thinkveryclearlytheyareoperatinginacommercialfashionandtheevidencethatthey'reoperatingin

acommercialfashionistheleveloftuitionthattheychargethepeoplewhodaretodreamofaccessingtheselearningresources.

Whatwouldconstituteanon‐commercialusebythesesameinstitutionswouldbeifwhenthey

mountedthesecontentsontheirwebsitetheydidnotputinaloginwithyouruniversityIDandpasswordtoaccessthem.Soauniversitycanusematerialsnon‐commerciallybyusingitinsuchawaythatitdoesnotrestrictaccessonlytothosepeoplewhohavepaidtuition.Assoonasyoumakepaying

tuitiontheconditionforaccessingthisstuff,nowyou'reusingitcommercially.You'reusingaccesstothisstuffasthewayyoumakemoney.Sothat'showIwouldrespondtothat.

David:IwouldsayIdon'tknowwhatIthinkanditdoesn'tmatterwhatIthink.No,itreallydoesn'tbecauseI'veheardpeoplearguethatUtahStateUniversitycouldusethingsnon‐commercially,witha

non‐commerciallicence,buttheUniversityofPhoenixcouldnotbecausethey'reforprofit.Nowwe'rebacktoadefinitionaroundthenatureoftheuser.I'veheard,I'veheardeverybodysayeverythingunderthesun,andtheonlythingthatmattersiswhattherightsholderimaginedintheirmindwhenthey

appliedthenon‐commercialclausetotheirmaterialandtheniftheyfindyoudoingsomethingoutsideofwhattheyimaginednon‐commercialmeantthentheysendyouaniceemail,thentheysendyouaceaseanddesistorwhateverhappens.

Itdoesn'tmatterwhatIthinkbecausethereisnodefinitionandthere'snowaytoknowaheadoftime

whetherwhatyou'redoingviolatestheimaginedcriteriainthemindofthelicensor.Andsothisiswhyyouhearpeoplesaythingslike,“Iwouldnevereverusenon‐commerciallylicensedcontentbecauseIcan'tprotectmyself.Idon'thavespelledoutformewhatI'mallowedtodoandwhatI'mnot.Idon't

knowwhat'sbeenimaginedinhismindwhenhesaysnon‐commercial.SoIcan'tcomply.OrIcan'tbesurethat,Icantrytocomplyinmycommonsensewaybut,Ithinkonethingthatwedoknowisthat

differentpeoplehavedifferentcommonsenses.”Sothere'sawholegroupofpeoplewhowillsay“Iwillnevertouchitwithatenfootpole,”andifyouwerereally,reallyworriedaboutbeingsuedthat'stheonlystanceyoucouldtake.WhatIthinkdoesn'tmatter.It'swhatthepersonwholicenseditthinksand

thatmeansthereisamilliondifferentdefinitions.

Paul:Iwonderifwecouldjusttakelikefifteenminutes,hearanythingfromanybodywho'sbeenlisteningtoyoubothaboutwhatwasconvincingoneitherthisissueorsomeofthepreviousonesthatthey'vebeendiscussing,anythingthattheyfoundparticularlycompellingorconvincing?

[pause]

Stephen:Sowe'vespenttheentiremorningandnobodyhasfoundanythingconvincing?

David:You'reaskingthemtotakesideswhich…

Stephen:Pickmyside.

Paul:Maybetheytokindofreflectonwhatthey'rehearingandseewhethertheyagree.Allright,we'll

takeabreakforlunch,we'llpickupagainatonethirty.

Stephen:Onethirty.

David:Andwedowanttocomeroundtoenclosure.Wedidn'tgetthereyet.

Stephen:Yeah,absolutelybecausethat'skey.

David:That'strue.

Stephen:Well,andthewholetuitionthingisrelatedtothat,yeah.

(Applause)

David:Ithinkweshouldapplaudtheendurance.

Stephen:Nokidding,yeah.

David:ImeanIhopeyou'reFacebookingorreadingyouremailordoingsomething.

Stephen:Wedidkidbeforethestartthatweweregoingtodotheentirethinginmonotonejustforfun,seehowlongyouallendured.

David:Iwasgoingtodomybestprofessor(…)I'dliketowelcome(…)

PartThree‐Institutions,AccreditationandCommercialismSegment3(1:30‐3:00)

Recordedaudio:Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley3.mp3

• Commercialvs.Non‐commercialOERProduction• IntrusionofCommercialvaluesintopersonalandnon‐Commercialspace• OpenEducationandtheLong‐TermRoleofInstitutions• ModelsforOpenAccreditation:CanTheywork?

Moderator:JeffMiller

Jeff:We’realmostreadytostartthisnextsession,whichmeansI’llquicklyintroduceeverybodyasItalk

andgetitoutoftheway.Justincaseanyoneiskeepingtrack,currentlyonGoogleyoucanfindtwelvemillion,threehundredthousandpicturesofducks,sowe'remakingsomeprogress,maybewithoureffortswecangetituptotwelvemillionfourhundredthousandandifweputourcollectivemindat

work.

Someone:Wow.

Someoneelse:Well,yeah,let’s...

Someone:(Laughs)

Jeff:Sothere’sonesuccessoutofthis.So,allright,inthisnextsessionwe'regoingtotalkaboutinstitutions,accreditationandcommercialismandperhapspickingupalittlebitonwhatweleftoffwiththismorning,startingwithcommercialversusnon‐commercialopeneducationalresourceproduction

andI,Iassumeproductionasopposedtolicensing,theintrusionofcommercialvaluesintothepersonalandnon‐commercialspace,openeducationandthelongtermroleininstitutionsandmodelsforopenaccreditationandthequestion,cantheywork?Sowe'll,we'lltakethisuntilthreefifteen.Thankyou.

Stephen:Well,yeah,me,guesswhowrotemostofthetopicsinthissegment.

(Shortlaugh)

David:Andlet'snotforgetenclosurebeforewe...

Stephen:Yeah,and,andwedidn't,thatwasontheprevioussectionwasn'tit?

David:Yeah.

Stephen:Yeah.Welllet,letmesketch,becauseIthinkitisanimportantargument,soimportantthatitgetsmusicalaccompaniment.

(Shortlaugh)

Stephen:Sorry,Iloveworkingthosein.Overtheyearsitbecomesachallenge,howcreativelycanyou

workin...

David:Incorporatethephoneringing.

Stephen:So,here,letmesetthisup,becausetheargumentisoftenmadethatiftheresourceisavailableinanopenmanner,thatis,youknow,openlyavailable,howeverwedefinethat,thatitdoesn'tmatterthatthere'snocommercialversions,becauseeventhoughtherearecommercialversionsofthe

resource,youcanalwaysaccessthenon‐commercialversion.Anditseemslikeaprettyappealingargument,right,andyeah,onthefaceofitweshouldsortofbesuspiciousbecause,youknow,onthefaceofit,welliftheverysameresourceisavailableforfreewhywouldanyonepayforit?

Okay,goaheadDavid.

David:Convenience.

Stephen:Right.

David:SoI'vepaidforDVDs,LinuxdistributionsIcouldhavedownloadedforfreeifI'dwantedtowait

fourgigabytesworthoftimeforittocomedown,andI'vealsopaidforprintedoutversionsofthreehundredandfifty,fourhundredpagebooksIdidn'twanttoreadallthatonthescreen,Iwantedaprintedcopyofit.Becauseeventhoughthefreeversionwasavailable...

Oh,andinthecaseofFlatWorld,theopentextbookpublishingcompany,youcan'tbuythecommercialbookwithoutgoingtothefreebookpagetobuytheprintedbook,andstilloversixtypercentofthestudentsbuyaprintedbookbecausetheywant,presumably,theconvenienceofholdingitintheirhand

andnothavingtoreadtheentirefreethingonline.SoIthinkconvenienceisonereasonthatpeoplepayforstuffthatisavailabletothemforfree.

Stephen:AndIthinkyou'reprobablyright,butyouknow,convenienceisoneofthesethingsthat'sverymalleable,andI'mtrying,tryingtothinkcarefullyabouthowIphrasethisbecause,because,well,I'm

justtryingto.

David:Yeah.

Stephen:The,theargumentthatIwouldliketoofferhereis,let'staketheconveniencething,ifyouhaveacommercialresourceandanon‐commercialresourceandyou'rethevendorofthecommercial

versionoftheresource,whatyouwanttodoismaximisesales.Ifconvenienceisthethingthatmaximisesyoursales,thenwhatyouwanttodoismaximisetheconvenienceofyourresource,right?Well,butconvenienceisarelativething,right?Convenienceisnotanabsolute.Yourresourceis

convenientonlywithrespecttotheotherresource.Right,iftheother,ifthefreeresourceexisted...

David:It'scomparative.

Stephen:Yeah,it'scomparative,sothatmeansthattherearetwowaystomakeyourresourcemoreconvenient.Onewayistomakeyourresourcemoreconvenient,theotherwayistomakeaccesstotheopenresourcelessconvenient.Itturnsoutthatthelatterisamuchmoreeffectivewaythantheformer,

it'scheaperandeasiertomakeithardtogetthefreeresource,thefreeversionoftheresource,andthereareallkindsofwaysthatcompaniescandoit,allkindsofwaysthattheyactuallydodoit,anditwaskindoffunnybecauseIwassortofthinking,wealmosthaveananalogyforthatinoursessionhere

today,oursessionisfree,it'sreallyhardtogetto.

(Shortlaugh)

Stephen:Butthat'sjustanaside.Whenyouthinkaboutit‐Ialludedtothisbeforethebreak–thewayopeneducationalresourcesbecamelearningobjects,theywereappropriatedbypublishersandturnedintopublications.Youknow,it'sfunny,it's,it'sasimpleconcepttobeginwith,youknow,afreelearning

resource,butthentheygotattachedtoeightysevenorwhateverentriesoflearningobjectmetadatawhichinSCORMareallrequired,theSCORMbeingthemorecommercialsideofthings.

Andthencontentpackagingandthen,youknow,the,theideathatthesethingswouldbe,actuallybezipped,soalearningpackageisnolongersimplyvisibleinthebrowseryou,youhavetodownloaditand

thenextractitbeforeyoucanactuallyuseit,and,andzippingitalsocreatesahurdleifyou'recreatingsomethingyourselflikea,apieceofsoftwareorsomethingthatwilluseit,it's,particularlyback,you

know,tenyearsago,itwasn'tstraight,sostraightforward,youjustaddanunzipmodule,youactuallyhadtodoawholepileofworktogetyoursoftwaretounzipthisstuff.

Andthenlegalrestrictions,thewholefear,uncertainty,doubt,Icanmake‐andtherewassomeallusiontothisbeforethebreakaswell‐Icanmakeyouropenresourcelessconvenientsimplybythreateninga

lawsuit.Idon'tevenhavetoactuallythreatenalawsuit,allIhavetodoisactuallysuggestthatalawsuitisapossibilityandthenallofasudden,useoftheopenresourceinvokes,youknow,scenariosoflawyersandlegalcases,Imightaswelljustpay,sobecausethisisthecase,the,thecommercialisation

oflearningresources,the,theuseofcommercialversionsofagivenresourceactuallypushesustowardustowardthatcommercialuseandpushesawayfromtheopenuse,makesitharderandhardertoaccesstheopenversionoftheresource.

There's,there'sallkindsofexamples,youknow,andtheO'Reillycaseisagoodone,becauseO'Reilly

knewthisortheO'Reillycompanyknewthis,right,youallowcommercialuseofyourpublications,otherpeoplewilltakeadvantageofthatandactuallypushyouasideifthey'rebigger,morepowerful,theycan

justwipeoutthemarketplace.Ialluded,again,beforethebreak,toanotherinstanceofthis,wherethepublicationofcommercialRubytextbooksmakesitlesslikelythatanyonewillbotherproducinganopen

versionofaRubytextbook.

Ihadabitofanexampleofthisinmyownlife,Icreatedaguidetothelogicalfallaciesandforyears,itwastheonlyguidetothelogicalfallaciesonline.Theproductionofacommercialguidetothelogicalfallaciesitselfwoulddissuadepeoplefromcreatingopennon‐commercialversionsofthatguidetothe

logicalfallacies,sofloodingthemarket.

Andweseethiseventodayinjournalpublicationsandtextbooksand,youknow,andit'sreallyhardtoevengetoffthegroundwithopentextbooksbecauseoftheexistenceandtheprevalenceofthecommercialmarketplaceintextbooksmakesitseemsofutiletodoso.

TherewasoneotherexampleI'mtryingtothinkofhere,ohyeah,theWikipediaexample,nowI'mjust

waitingforthistohappen,therewasatime,it'snotthecaseanymore,buttherewasatime,anytimeIwouldsearchonGoogleforagivenWikipediaarticle,I'dgetoneofthesecommercialclonesofWikipediaandbasicallywhattheywoulddois,they'd,they'dtakeWikipedia'scontent,whichyou're

allowedtodo,putitonlinewithawholebunchofadsaroundit,andthenusesearchengineoptimisationtodrivepeopletotheircontentratherthantoWikipedia,andforawhilethere,untilGooglechanged‐andGoogleactuallyhadtointerveneandchangethealgorithm‐butuntilthen,that

wasallyoucouldfind,youcouldneverfindtheactualWikipediaarticle,you'dgetthisthingpollutedwithalltheseadvertisementsonit.

Andwhenyouaredrivingrevenuefromyourclonedversion,youcanspendmoneyonsearchengineoptimisation,youcanspendmoneymakingithardertogetthefreelyaccessiblecontent,andyoucan

spendmoneytomakeitprettymuchimpossible(toaccess).

WesometimestalkaboutthecaseofopeneducationalresourcesinAfrica,andyou'veheardtheargumentandI'veheardtheargumentwherethereareplacesinAfricawhere(thereareplaces

everywherebuttheargumentusuallyaddressesAfrica)internetaccessandindeedevencomputeraccessisveryhardtocomeby,andsoyouneedtoprintthestuffoutand,andcarryitinandthat'showpeoplecangetaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Except,youknow,thisalwaysinvolvesagreat

cost,andthereforeneedstobecommercial.Otherwiseitsimplywouldn'tbedoneatall.Butthethingis,whathappensinthesortofenvironmentwherethere'sacommercialindustryhastakenaholdisthattheynowhaveanincentivetodissuadegovernmentfrominvestingininternetaccessbecausetheir

marketdependsontherenotbeinginternetaccess,sotheexistenceofacommercialmarket,particularlywherethecommercialmarketistheonlyaccess,actuallypreventsthedevelopmentofanopenmarket.

Youknow(andIhesitate,butnotverymuch)tostepintotheUShealthcaredebate,butweseethe

samesortofthinghere,wheretheexistence,themereexistenceoftheprivatehealthcareshereisinitselfbeingusedtocreateanentirecampaignagainstapublicoption.TheUSisjustbeingpresentedwithapublicoption,right?Notevenlikewhatwehaveherewhereit'spublichealthcareperiod,buta

publicoptionandthey'resaying,“No,youcan'tdothat”,andthelinewealwayshearisquote‐unquote,“Unfaircompetition”.

InBritain,theBritishBroadcastingCorporation,BBC,asyouknow,putsmaterials,learningmaterials

online.There'sahugelobbyfromthepublishersandtheprivatebroadcastersinBritainagainstthatbecauseBBCisoffering“unfaircompetition”totheireducationalmaterials.Soagain,privateindustrywilllobby,willtakesteps,willtakeactionsinordertopreventtheproductionanddistributionofopen

educationalresources.

Sothisis,allofthistogetheriswhatIcallthe‘enclosureargument’andtheideahereisthat,evenifopeneducationalresources,opencontent,freecontent,exists,ifyouhaveanenvironmentwherethecommercialalternativetoaccessthesamecontentisinplace,theprovidersofthiscommercialaccess

willattempttoenclosetheopencontent.Andtheyencloseinawidevarietyofways,makingitessentiallyimpossibletogettothatcontentwithoutpayingforit.

Artworksinmuseums,youknow,somethingpaintedinthe1200s,presumablycopyrighthasexpiredbutyoustillcan'tgetacopyofitwithoutpayingforit,becausealthoughtheartworkispublicdomain,no

photographsareallowedinthemuseum,sonopersonhasthecapacitytoactuallygointhereandgetacopyofthisthingwithoutbreakingthelaw.AndyouseethesamesortofthingtechnologicallywithdevicessuchastheKindle.

The,theotherpointIwanttomakethoughtooisthatwhenwehavethiskindofset‐upwiththe

commercialmarketplaceandtheopencontent,thetendencyistosqueezeoutandsqueezeoutandsqueezeouttheopencontent.Lookatthebookstore‐I'msurethere'sabookstorearoundheresomewhereinthemiddleofVancouver‐gotothebookstore,seehowmanyfreebooksyoucanfindin

thebookstore.Therearenone,allright,andtherearenonenotbecausetheydon'texist,notbecausetheywouldn'texist,butbecausethebookstoreresolutelyrefusestoallowthem.

Andsimilarly,youknow,and,andwhetherornotitisinfactthecasethepotentialisforittobethecase

withmarketplaceslikeiTunes,withmarketplacesliketheKindle,whereshouldtheyachieveanythinglikeubiquity,itwillbeimpossibletogetfreecontentonthem.SomepeoplehavebeenpublishingtheirblogonKindle,Iaskedthem,“IsitpossibletopublishyourblogforfreeonKindle?”,apparentlynot,

nowthismayormaynotbethecasetoday,whoknows,thingschangesomuch,but,butthatisstillthedirectionwhichthistravels.

ThisiswhywhenIproduceopencontentforlearning,IthinkthatIampromotingmorefreecontentforlearning,bymakingitnon‐commercial,becauseassoonthecommercialsideofitcomesintoplay,as

soonasthere'sacommercialversionofthiscontentwe,westarttheclockonhowlongit'sgoingtobebeforetheycloseoffaccesstoallthenon‐commercialpartofthecontentandwecomebacktotheoriginalstartingpoint,wheremypositionisIamthinkingoffreedomasitimpactsthepeoplewhodo

notyethaveaccesstothecontent.

And,youknow,Idon'tcare,frankly,howfreeornon‐freethepersonwiththecontentfeels,Idocareagreatdealabouthowfreeornon‐freethepersonwhodoesnothaveaccesstothecontentfeels,

becausethetheprinciplesdon'tmatterthe,thenamingdoesn'tmatter,ifasamatterofpragmaticfactyoucannotaccessthecontentwithouthavingtopay,withouthavingtogothroughawholelotof

contortionsorwhatever,thenitisnotopenandifitisnotopen,you,yourfreedom,yourcapacitytobecomeeducated,tomakesomethingofyourself,tohave‘thegoodlife’,isimpaired,andsothat,that'swhyItaketheattitudethatIdo,andthatinanutshellistheenclosureargument.

David:So,quickresponseandthenweshouldgetontothesupposedtopicofthis.

Stephen:(Laughs)(...)thisisaprettycoretopic.

David:Yeah,yeah,noIthinkthisimportanttoo.IguessontheonehandI'mnotsure,Iseehowit's

easierforanevilperson(let'sjustcharacterisethem)whowantstocomeinandoverwhelmyouropencontentandmakesurenoonecanfinditandthattheybuytheirproprietaryversionandnottheopenversion,itisslightlyeasierforthemifyouallowcommercialusesofyourworksotheycanjustpickitup

anduseitagainstyou,butiftheyreallyhaveamotivationforpeopletobuyfromtheminsteadofusingyoursforfree,they'lljustcreatetheirownversionorgolicenseitfromsomeoneelseorfinditsomewhereandcompetewithacopyrighted(content).

Youknow,theRubybooksinthestore,theO'ReillyRubybookwillbemarketedanditwillcompete

againsttheopenRubybooks,eventhough,youknow,some,the,ithadtobecreatedfromscratch,itwasn'tleveragedfromexistingopencontentbackagainsttheoriginalauthorortherightsholder.

WhenyouthinkaboutthingslikeOpenOfficeversusMicrosoftOfficeortheGimpversusPhotoshop,andif,ifyoudon'thavetheresourcestodoSEOyourself,tocompetewiththecommercialpublisher

who'sgoingtoinvestinSEOagainstyou,youstilldon'thavetheSEOresourcesevenifthatperson'snotthere,soif,ifyoudon'tknowhowtomakeyourstufffindable,evenifyouproduceitunderanopenlicenseif,ifyou'renotwillingorableorcapableorwhateverof,ofusingSEOonitthatway,it'snot

goingbeeasilyfindable,whetherthere'sacommercialcompetitorornot,Ithink,there'sjustsomuchstuffoutthere.

IfpeopleknowhowtousetheadvancesearchinGoogleorsomething,youknow,tolookforopenly

licensedthings,thenthey'llfindit,butthosepeoplewillfindstuffevenif(it’senclosed),they'regoingtofindstuffanyway.SoIunderstand,now,whereyou'recomingfromintermsofenclosure,butI'mjustnotsure.IcanseehowusingtheNClicensemakesitalittleharderforthenextguy,becausenowhehas

toproducehisowninsteadofjustreusingyours,butusingtheNClicensedoesn'tpreventthemfrombuyingsomebodyelse'scontentorlicensingitorproducingtheirownanddoingthesamethingtoyouanyway,itjustmakesitalittleharder,Ithink,wouldyouagree?

Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Ihavetoagreebecausethatpartofit'sprettyobvious.

David:WellsomethingsIthinkareobviousareapparently(not?).

Stephen:WellImeancouldsomebody,couldacommercialcompany,producearesource,yeah.Right.

Couldacommercialcompanyproducearesourcethatiskindoflikeyours?Well,yeah,right,andsothatpartofit'sprettyobvious.

David:If,ifthemarket'sbigenoughforthemtowanttotakeyourmaterialanddosomethingelsewithit,ifthey'regoingtogotoallthateffort,becausethere'senoughofamarketthere,Ithinkthey'dalsobe

incentivisedtoproducetheirowntocompete.

Stephen:Well,yeah.Butthere'sabig,bigdifferencebetweenjusttakingwhatyou'vedone,copyingitandputtingitoutthereandcreatingyourown,as,youknow...

David:Mmm‐hmm,admittedly.

Stephen:...becauseyouknow,ifwejustlookat,onecompany,oneperson,wellyeahokay,it’snotareallybigchallengeforthecompany,butifyoulookatthebalance,onecompany,fivehundred

thousandpeople,nowallofasudden,thefivehundredthousandpeopleproducingopenresourcesareamassingresourcesthatthecompanycan'tmatch.Right?Fivehundred,youknow,nocompanycanproducethatkindofcontent,it'slikeWikipedia.Whatcompanyintheworldcouldpossiblypaypeople

toproducethatmuchcontent?It’sjust,justbeyondthescaleofcomprehensionofanycompany.

Theycancertainlycopyit,it'sjustsomesimplelittlecomputerprogramme,right?Read,write,read,write,realsimple,youcandoitinoneline,socopyingisreallyeasy,recreatingfromscratch,alotharder.Oncewegetintothesortofeconomicsofmassproductionofopencontent,it'snotaboutmeas

anindividualfacingoffagainstJoePublisher,whomayormaynotbeevil,wecanactuallyleavetheevilpartofitout,right,it'sjustJoePublisherdoingbusinessaspublishersdobusinessinthetwenty‐firstcenturyWesterneconomyandthis,thiswholemarketplacemanipulationispartofnormalbusiness

practice.IsometimesrefertoShaperoandVarian,InformationRules14,theymapallofthisout.Noneoftheseare,areunusualtactics,illegal,they'renotevenunderhanded,they'reopenlydone,it'sjustthewayyoudobusiness.

David:But,butifanopencontentproducerisn'twillingtoengagewiththosethings,whyshouldthey

expecttoshowupabovethecommercialpublisher.

Stephen:Typicallyyouwouldn'texpectthecommercialpublishertoevenhaveaversionofwhattheopenpersonisdoing,okay,rememberwe,we,wetalkedearlier,rightattheverybeginningofthe

sessionaboutthespecificityoftheresourcethatyoucangetatwithopencontent,right.

David:LikeWhy’s,mmm.

Stephen:Exactly,right,now,imaginethevariouspeople,howevermanypeoplewhoareoutthereinthecommunity,doingtheirowntakeonRuby,right,apublishermightmatchoneortwoofthem,butapublisherisn'tgoingcreateaversionofeverysingleoneofthem.It'sonlyifthepublishercancopyand

repostthattheycanproduceversionsofalloftheworksthatarecreatedbypeopleinthecommunity,soyourtypicalwayofreachingthetopofthesearchengineis,thereisnocommercialresourceofthattypeavailable,andtheonlywaythatthat'sthecaseisifthepublisherfacesthesamesortofbarrierthat

youdid,theactualbarrierofcreatingtheresource.Doesthatmakesense?

14http://www.amazon.com/Information‐Rules‐Strategic‐Network‐Economy/dp/087584863X

David:It,itdoesmakesensebutI'mtryingtothink,soit,itactuallyparallelsalittlebitargumentswe'vebeenhavingaboutdraftopentextbooklegislationintheUS,ithasn'tbeenintroducedyet,we'restill

workingonit,butthereisaquestionthereaboutwhichlicensewouldbethebestlicensetousefor,saythegovernmentwasgoingtocreateacompetitiveprogrammeandawardgrantspeopletocreateopentextbooksand,andwhat,shouldwerequireaspecificopenlicense?Andwhenwedidthat,thefeeling

wasyes,okay,sowhichopenlicenseshouldwerequirethemtouse,andsomepeopleimmediatelysaidwehavetodonon‐commercialandallthisotherstuff,andotherpeoplesaidwellattributionisenough,ifthepeople'staxmoneypaidforit,itoughttobeavailabletoallthepeopleonthesameterms,it

belongstothemand,eventually,me.

The,thepartofthatargumentthatwasmostinterestingtomeisgoingandlookingatRich(Bearnecks?),DSPtextbookinConnexions,whichisthe,thecorepieceof,the,theoriginalpieceofcontentinConnexions15.

Stephen:Right,Connexions,forpeoplewhodon'tknowisRiceUniversity'sConnexions,spelledwithan

X.

David:WithanX,right.So,hereandRichisaNationalScienceFoundationcareerawardwinnerandalltheseother,theseoutstandingelectricalengineer,reallygoodqualitytextbookonDSP,it'sbeeninConnexionsforlikeeightyearsnowunderthemostliberallicensepossible,justattribution,andinthat

eightyearperiodoftimewiththisreallygreatqualitypieceofcontent,there'sneverbeenapublisherpickitup,republishitandtrytosellitanywhereandinfactofalltheopenlylicensedtextbooksthatexistintheworld,like,youknowtheLightMatterseriesorwhatever,thathaveliberalopenlicenses

thatwouldallowapublishertoscoopthemupandrepublishthemandtrytoburytheopenversion,ithasn'thappenedasingletime,andsomeofthemarelikeRich'sbookislikeeightyearsoldnow.

Andsointheargumentaboutwhatwasappropriateinthelicense,westartedaskingthisquestionof,

obviouslythiscouldhappenanditwouldbeveryeconomicalforapublisherjusttoscoopupthatcontent,reformatitand,youknow,startsellingitanddoSEOthingstoburythefreeversion,whatever.

Stephen:AnditdidhappenwithWikipedia.

David:Welltheydidn'tburythe,accesstoWikipedia,youknow,Imeanpeoplehavescoopeditupandtriedtoresellaccesstoit.

Stephen:They,theyburyitintheGooglelistings.

David:The,thetextbookpublisherswetalkedtosaid,youknow,the,youknowthecontent'sdone,

thereisafairlysignificantinvestmentintaking,gettingitreformatted,itwouldneedsomeartworkadded,needsomestuffdone,butbecauseithasthatreallyliberallicense,wecouldn'tgetanexclusiveangleonit,andsoit'snoteven,it'snotworthourtime,becauseifitbecamereallypopular,everyother

publisherwouldjustgopickupthattextanddothesamethingandthere,there,there'snorealwayforustocompetewithitbecausethelicenseistooopenonitsowejust,wewouldnevertouchit,it'snot

15http://cnx.org/

worthinvestingthemoneyin.Andjustas,asactual,youknow,notquiteadecadebutactualyearsoflivedexperienceofpeopleavoidingitandreportingtheiravoidingitforthatreason,itseemslikean

interestingcounter‐argumenttotheenclosuremodelthatyou'reputtingforth.

Stephen:I,Ithinkmaybeyou'remoretrustingofwhatpublisherssaythanIam,because...

David:WellbutRichcantellyou,there,thereisnocommercially(talkingtogether)versionof...

Stephen:OhIwouldfreelybelievethat,thatpartofitIhavenoproblembelieving,thereisnopublishedversionofthiscourse,right.

David:Youthinkit'snot,ithasn'tbeenpublishedforadifferentreasonthantheonethat's...

Stephen:...it'snot,it'snotsomethingthatwouldbepopularenough,it'snotsomethingthatwouldhaveawideenoughmarket.Publishers...

David:EveryengineeringstudenttakesDSPthough,Imeanasfarastextbooksgo,that...

Stephen:Butnoteveryengineeringstudenttakesthattextbook.

David:Right.

Stephen:So.

David:Butthatdoesn'tstopeachpublisher...

Stephen:...theyalreadyhavetheirowntextbooks,right,so,theydon'tneedthisparticulartextbook,

theyalreadyhavetheirown.Imeanthe,the,thesuggestionthatthepublisherwouldn'tpublishitbecausetheycouldn'thaveexclusivityisnotbelievableonthefaceofitbecauseweknowthatpublisherspublishbookshaveformanyyearsbeeninthepublicdomain,liketheIliad,right,wegoto

theself‐samebookstore,wecanfindacopyoftheIliad,published,probablybyPenguin,right,and...

David:Whatabout,but,butthesebookscostlikefivebucksandit'snotatextbook.

Stephen:Buttheystilldoit.All,allIhavetoshowisthattheydoit.Sopublishersdopublishbooksthatareinthepublicdomain,thattheydon'thaveexclusivity,sowhenthepublisherssaytheywon'tpublish

bookswheretheydon’thaveexclusivity,it'snottrue.

David:Welltheysaytheywon'tbecausethere'stoomuchinvestmentneededtotakeitfromwhereitis,toturnitintoaqualitytextbook,whereaswiththeIliad,youjustputacoveronitandpublishit.Youdon'thavetodoalottoit,yousay,hey,thisistheIliad,youknow,andthenpeoplewillbuyitforfive

bucks.

Stephen:Ourmoderator'stryingtogetourattention.

Jeff:I'dliketotaketheprerogativeinbeingthemoderator,butjustaskforapointofdistinction,we'retalkingalotaboutpublicationsintermsofnowtheIliad,books,monographsandsuchandcouldyou

offerussomedistinctionbetweenpublicationsthatareopeneducationalresources,courses,learningresourcesandsuchandthekindofissuesthatcomeupintermsofwhatweconsiderpublicationthere

asanimperative,thingsthatlike,textbooks.It’sadifferentthingthanpublishingacourse,andthatthepublicationofacourseisperhapssimilarordifferentthanthepublicationofamanuscript.Canyouperhapsnarrowinalittlebit,onthatdistinction?

Stephen:WellnowIthinkthatmightbetheanswertowhywedon'thaveapublicationofthiscourse,

it'scourse,it'snotabook,right,and,andthecontentonConnexions,youknow,isn'teasilydraw‐uppable,we'llpretendIdidn'tsaythat...

Jeff:Oh,Ijustwroteitdown.

Stephen:Ohoh,it'son,it'salreadyonTwitter,it'stoolatenow,youknow,cannotbeeasilydraw‐uppable,beturnedintoabook.

David:Well,actuallyIthinkthere'sabuttonyoucanpushthatwillgeneratethewholethingasaprint

readyPDFsoIthinkit'sactuallyinthecaseofConnexions,Ithinkit'sveryeasily,infactIthinkit'saseasilydraw‐uppable,assumingthepossible,inthecaseofConnexionsbutformostotherplacesit,it'snot,really.

Stephen:Then,youseenow,yousee,justafewminutesagoyousaidthepublishertoldyouthey'dhave

todoallkindsofthings,andnowwehearthethingsthattheyhavetodoispushabutton.

David:Oh,no,no,no,no.

Stephen:Well.

David:Todrawitup,tohaveitinPDFsoyoucanprintoutisabuttonpush,butifyoulookatthat,Imean,it'snotlaidout,it'sjusttextonthepage,there'snotanydesignworkoranythingputintomakingitlooklikesomethingthatifyouhadachoicebetweenthatandfourothercommercial

textbookslaidoutinfrontofyou,ifalltheydidwasprintwhatcameoutofConnexionsandjustsetitthere,you'd,you'dflipthroughitlikethisandthenyou'djustpushitasidebecausethere'snocolour,

there'snothis,there'snothat,there'snoneofthecoachingandguidinganddesignthatgoesintowhatweexpectoutofaqualityresource,it'sjustbeenbundledupandmadeeasyforyoutoprint.There'salotofdesignworkonthe,onthebackendofpublishingsomethingthatlookslikeadecentquality

textbook.

Stephen:And(Pause),howwillI,willIputthis,seeagainit'sthe,you'rehavingitbothwayskindofthing...

David:WellIliketowhenIcan.(Laughs)

Stephen:Yeah,it'sreally,reallyeasytoprintthisoutbutit'swaytoofarfrombeingatextbook,youknowwhatImean,it'sjustlike,thelicensethingsaredifficulttorespondtobecausethey'remushy,and

IknowI'mthelastpersontoaccusesomebodyofbeingmushybut...

David:WellwetotallyduckedhisquestionbutIthink...

Stephen:Yeah.

David:...we'restartingtoanswerit.

Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Imeanlet,let,let'scometothiswholethingof,ofcoursesor,orevenwhatyou'vejustsaid,youknowlike,liketake,takethosesortsofstatements,andanalysethem,it'sgotto

havethis,it'sgottohavethat,it'sgottohavecolours,it'sgottohavelayout,it'sgotto,whatbeprintedinTimesNewRoman,whatever,ifit'sacourseit'sgottohavethis,it'sgottohavethat,youknow,even,youknow,the,theConnexionsstuffhasalotofthisstuffbuiltintotheenginesothatyoucanputinall

theseaspectsofacourse,orifyoucreateacourseonMoodle,youknow,you'vegotyourdiscussion,andyou'vegotyourresources...

David:Yourstandardsetoftools.

Stephen:Yeah,andthere'sthispresumptionthattheproductionoftheseresourceswillinvolveallofthat,it'syour,“Ohit'ssoexpensiveandhardtoproduce”kindofargument,youknow,youknow,we,

“Wewouldn'tevenbotherunlesstherewasenoughofareturnbecauseit'ssohardtodo”,youknowwhatImean,I'm,I'mcaricaturingit,italittlebitbutthat'sbecauseIwanttocontrastthat,againwithmypictureofaduckwhichasitturnsoutisremarkablysimpletoproduce,thereare,howmany?

Jeff:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandone.

Stephen:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandonepicturesofaduckavailableontheinternet

and...

David:Thesearetheopenlylicensedones.

Jeff:But,butonlyninemillionpicturesofcows,so,there'sworktobedone.

(Laughter)

Stephen:So,there'scorrespondinglymoreofamarketforpublisherstoproducepicturesofcowsthanpicturesof,nevermind.Now,but,soifyouwanttospecialiseintheproductionofpicturesofducksasa

commercialenterprise,right,merelyproducingapictureofaduckisnotgoingtobesufficientanymore,right,ithastobehardtodo,itmustbeamallard,itmustbeSeptember,thetwelfth,from,youknowwhatImean,it'slikeyougetmore,andanythingthatisn'toneofthoseisalowerqualityduck.Aswell,

theduckmustbemetataggedanditmustappearintheregistryofduckphotographs,forwhichyoumustpayand,Icouldgoon,but,butyousortofgetthepicturethatI'mdrawinghere?The,thispresumption,this,thisargumentthatyouneedtodothis,youneedtodothis,youneedtodoallof

thosethingsandthephrasingwasthat,youknow,I'mparaphrasingyou,thatpeoplewouldassociatewithagoodtextbook,alotofthatisinvention,alotofthatisexpectationsthathavebeencreatedforus.

David:That,that'sabsolutelytrue,butwhenthestatereviewboardsitsdowntodecidewhichtextbooksthey'regoingtoallowtobeadoptedstatewide,ifyourthingissofaroutinleftfieldthatit

doesn'tevenlooklikewhatwe'reconsidering,thenthechancethatyou'regoingtohaveabigimpactonalargegroupofpeopleisverysmall.Andthat'sokayifyoudon'twanttohavealargeimpactonthatparticulargroupofpeoplebutifyouwanthighschoolstudentstosave,ifyouwantschoolstosave

money,becausetheyadoptedthisopenresourceinsteadofpayingfortextbooks,thenyouhavetodowhatneedstobedonesothatthatopenresourcefeelsacceptabletothepeoplethatmakethatdecision.

Stephen:Well,letmeseeifIcan'tfindithere...

David:Andyoudon'thaveto,butifyoudon'tmakethateffortyoujustcan'tcomplainwhentheydon't

adoptyouropencontent.

Stephen:Letmeseehere,I'mjustlookingforthisbecausethiscameup,okay,it'shardtoreadandtalkatthesametimebut,therewasthe(Longpause)...

David:Wewouldtalkwhileyou'researchingbutIwouldprobablychangethesubject(...).

Stephen:Yeah,sorry,wellthisisoneofthethings,thisisoneofthereasonswhywe'retakingthetimetodothis.

David:Right.No,whatIwouldsayisthatifyougointoGoogleandusetheiradvancedsearchtofind

onlyCreativeCommonslicensedphotosofducks,you'llseethatthefirsttwo,andthreeofthefirsttenarephotographsofHowardtheDuck...

Stephen:(Laughs)

David:...comicbookcoverswhichareclearlycopyrightedandyetthesephotoshavebeenpostedwiththeCreativeCommonslicenseonthemwhichisslightlyproblematic.Anyway.

Stephen:Withthataside,yeah.

David:Justanasideasyousearch...

Stephen:It's,it'sallthedatathatthey'renotallowingcommercialuse,Imeanyouknow.That'sthething,yougetintocommercialuseyougetintoallkindsofliabilitiesandyouknow.ThisisMaysixth16actually;thisisthethingthatactuallypromptedmetosaysomeofthisstuff...

David:Areyougoingtoreadmebacktomenow?

Stephen:No,I'mgoingtoreadmebacktoyou,yougotitworse.

David:Okay,good.(Laughs)

16http://www.downes.ca/post/48860

Stephen:Ah,okay,here,I'lljustreadit,it'sfaster,“DavidWileyproposestorevamplegislationthatwouldproduceopentextbooks,”nowI'mquoting,“Thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefunding

opportunities...”‐rightoffthebatit'sabitofaredflagforme,butthat'sacompletelydifferentissue‐“thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunities...”,becausethere'sthispresumptionthatcompetitionactuallyproducesbetterresultsbut...sorryDave.

David:(Laughs)

Stephen:“...wouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunitiestocreateopentextbooksinanycontent

area.Thesewouldbemulti‐stagegrants(liketheSBIRprogram),withadditionalfundingtiedtothesuccessfulcompletionofinitialprojectgoals."

Okay,nowthisismeagain,peoplewouldfile,I'mparaphrasingwhatyousaid,peoplewouldfileproposalsansweringkeyquestionssuchasthenatureofthebook,thecostofexistingbooks,

management,marketingplans,andaproposedlicensingscheme,disbursementwouldbeincrementalbasedonmeetingprojectgoalsand,quote“Acontent‐completeversionoftheopentextbookmustgoonlinewithalltext,images,andotherfeaturesoftheprintedversionavailabletothepublicforfree,

unrestricted,unfetteredaccess,”unquote,okay,nowmeagain,“IammostlyinagreementwithWiley'sproposal(Iopposethe(quote)‘letterofsupportfromareputablepublisher’asthiswouldtorpedothewholeproject),andwouldsupportasimilarmechanismhereinCanada.”

Thinkaboutwhatyou'vejustdonewiththat.Thepublishersaresupposedtowritetheselettersof

supportfortheseopenresources,right?Myfirstquestion:whatincentiveintheworldwouldapublisherhavefordoingsuchathing?Andtheanswerofcourseisnone,butevenmoretothepoint,whatthepublisherwilldoisdemandtheproductionofresourceintensive,veryspecific,well,youknow,

like,youknownatureofthebook,costofexistingbooks,marketingplans,management,allofthoseelements,right,the,thepublisherbasically,inacasewhereyoudidn'treallyneedanythingtoofancy,

thepublisherwouldrequirethisCadillacversionofatextbookandthatiswhatwouldcountas“quality”andonlythatwouldbeadmissibleforthesestatewidethings,thestatewidedeploymentandofcoursethosearerequirements.

It'swhatIcallthehighbarrequirement,right?Yousetthebarsohighthatnogenuineproduceroffree

andopencontentcouldevermeetsucharequirement,butit'snotagenuinerequirement.It'sgenuineinthesensethatthestateactuallyasksforit,butthestate'saskingforitontheadviceofpublisherssothepublisherisofferingthesortofadvicethatmostpromotesitsownbusiness,so...

David:SoshallI?

Stephen:Yeah,okay.

David:So,Brandon,howmuchmoneyhasNSBLspentthelastfifteenyears?

Brandon:Abouttwohundredmilliondollars.

Stephen:Howmuch?

David:Twohundredmillion.

Stephen:Twohundredmillion.

Brandon:Yeah.

David:US,yeah...

Brandon:Whichvariesovertime.

Stephen:Yeah.

David:Yeah,yeah.SoyoulookatHewlett?,and(Andey?)howmuchhasHewlettinvested(onyour?)?Sixtyeightorsomething?

Andy:Yeah.

David:Anyway,so,frommyperspective,wehave,sothisisjustoneNSFprogrammethatwe're,results

largelyintheproductionofopeneducationalresources,yeahifHewlettfundinggoingintothingslikeConnexionsandtheotherprojects,thisis,bevery,veryconservative,takethosetwonumbers,roundoff,andsaythreehundredmilliondollarsofpublicorphilanthropicmoneyspenttoproducecontent

thatshouldostensiblybeopen.

Stephen:Andyet...

David:Ifyoucomeback,ohit,it's,it'sopen,whatit'snotdoingisifyoulookatelementaryschools,middleschools,publicschools,universities,it'snotdisplacingcommercialcontent.

Stephen:Ofcoursenot.

David:Andthereforeit'snotsavinganyoneanymoney.Sowhatwetry,andI'mstillnot‐andsothisisthelegislationIwastalkingaboutbefore‐I'mstillnotsurewhatit'sgoingtolooklikeattheend,whenit

doesgetintroduced,whatwewantedtosaywas,weonlywanttogiveyoufunding‐thisifIwaskingoftheworld,thisisthewaythegrantpartwouldwork‐yougooutandyoulookandseehowmany

studentsbuyatextbooklikethisinthecourseoftheyear,what'stheaveragenewcost,what'stheaverageusedcost,whatdostudentsintheUSinthiscase,spendonthistextbookeveryyear,that'stheopportunity,that'sthemoneysavingopportunitythatwehavewithanopentextbookthatcould

displacethat.

SostudentsareblowingfivehundredmillionayearonAlgebraOne,orcalculustextbooksorsomething.Thatcomparedtoalittlegraduateleveltextonanalysisofcovariants,wherepeoplespendtwohundredandfiftythousanddollarsayearonthistextbook,sothat'sonemetricofwhichonewewouldwantto

investin.Howmuchmoneycouldwepossiblysavepeople,ifwedothisright,becausethiswouldbegovernmentmoneycomingthrough.

Stephen:Right.Andthispresumesaneducationalsystemotherwiseunaltered.

David:Right,thisiswhatcanwehack,howcanwehacktheexistingsystemnow,asopposedtotryingtodocatastrophicreformofthesystem.Thisisoneplacewherewediffer,you'reacatastrophicreform

guy,I'maverysmallincrementofwhatcanwecanhackintotheexistingsystem...

Stephen:No,you'rea,you'reacatastrophicstatusquoguy.

(Laughter)

David:Oneofthethingswewantedtodo,orthatIwoulddo,ifIwaskingoftheworldIshouldsay,isthatasyouproducethisopencontent,you'dhavetopartnerwithacommercialpublisherthatknowshowtomarket,knowshowtodistribute,knowshowtosetgoalsonforecastsales,andcancomeback

withareasonableestimatetosayifthisbookturnsouttobeanykindofqualityatall,wecanahundredthousandunitsofitinthefirstyear,andifit'sfreeonlinetoeverybody,for,wellahundredthousandunitsmeans,ahundredthousandstudent'sworthoffacultywhoadoptthetextbookastheofficial

textbookfortheirclassbecauseifthefacultymemberdoesn'tadoptit,youhaven'tsavedanybodyanymoney.

Stephen:Nowlet's,let'sanalysethis.

David:Now,nowletmefinishandthenyoucananalysethewholething.

Stephen:I'llforget.

David:Allright,goahead.

Stephen:Wellbecause,I'll,I'llsayitverybrieflyandthen,thenyoucancontinue,wewereattheverybeginningofourtalk,talkingaboutveryspecific,verynicheorientedmaterials,andthatwasthe

strengthofopeneducationalresources,butnowwe'reintomarketingplansandmassproductionandreplacingentirestatesworthoftextbookswiththisonething,twoverydifferentthings.

David:Yeah,andIwouldconsiderthemdifferentbecauseoneistheidealandoneiswhatyoucan

actuallygetdonetomorrow.

Stephen:Exceptthegettingitdone,howmuchmoneyhasbeenspentandthey'restillnotreplacingthetextbook,soagainthisisthisefficiency,you'regoingreallyfasttonowhere.

David:Wellithasn'treplacedanytextbooksbecauseallthefundingthatwe'vedoneinthepasthasbeentothreefacultymemberswhoknowtheircontentandcanwriteagood,agreat,textbookbut

don'tknowhowtomarket,don'tknowhowtogetitinfrontofotherfaculty,otheruniversities,theylackallofthebusinessexperience,businessexpertise,businessprocesstogetthattextbookinfrontofanotherfacultymember,sothatheorshecanadoptit,sothatitdisplacesthetextbookthatprofessorX

iscurrentlyusing.

Sowe'vewastedhundredsofmillionsofdollars,wehaveawebfullofgreatcontentthathasn'tsavedanybodyanymoney,intermsofformaled,andhere'sanopportunityifyoutookopencontentandyoubroughtthepublisherinasapartnertogooutandsay,hereitisafreelyavailableonlineandit's

inexpensiveinprint,whatever,thirtybucksinsteadofahundredandfiftyorsomething,andyousayinthefirstyear.

Sooneofthethingswe'vebeencalculatingwithFlatWorldKnowledgeishowmuchdowethinkwe're

goingtosavepeoplethiscomingfall,takingthetextbooksthatwe'vedone,weknowhowmanyofthemaregoingtobuyaprintedversion,howmanywe'rejustgoingtouseonline,weknowwhatbookstheywerebuying,howmuchtheycostandwe'reguessingthatwe'regoingtosavestudentsintheUS

betweentwoandtwoandahalfmilliondollars,justthisfallbythefacultyadoptinganopentextbookasopposedtoadoptingthePearsonthattheyusedtoadopt.

Andsothatmetricofhowmuchmoneycanweactuallysavepeoplegoingtoschoolwhoarepayingoutrageoustuitionsandwhateverelse,thatmetricseemstomelikeoneweshouldcareabout,andif

wecontinuetodoitthewaywe'vedoneitforthelasttenyears,justproducingcontentandthrowingitonwebsitesandprayingthatsomebodycomesandfindsitandadoptsit,whenthatcommercialpublisher'sputtingreviewcopiesoffourdifferentbooksontheirdesk,it'snotgoingtodisplaceanything

andasfarastheimpactonformaleducation,it'sgoingtocontinuetobezero,so,thisproposalwasonewayofsaying,“howcanweactuallygetopencontenttodisplaceexpensivetextbooksandhaveopencontentactuallysavestudentsmoney?”that's,that'sthegoalofthatproposal.

(HandUp)

Stephen:Yeah,goahead.

Questioner:Isthattosetanexampleoristhattomovethatacrossasforbeforebecauseoneofthe

greatthingsaboutwhatthatdoesissomethingpeoplecanunderstand,andthenschooldistrictscanactuallypointtoyou,soifyou'vegotanagentofchangeinaschooldistrictsomewhereinMichiganwhogoes,“Lookatthedollarfigurethatwe'vegothere”,youcanactuallypresentthatdollarfiguretothe

administrationandthenstartdoingotherthings.Thegoalsgrowifyou'redoingtheirfurtherpathswhereyouare,like,ifyouhaveoneprimarygoalprocessyou'redoing,isitmoreaboutsettingan

exampleofthepossibleorisitforwardingtheactualprojectthatyouhavethere?

David:WellI,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningful,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningfulexampleofwhat'spossibleifyoureallymakethatprojectsucceed.So,ifthe,ifthefirstgoalisn'ttomakethespecificprojectsucceedthenthereisnodownstreambenefits.

Questioner:I'msorry,Imeangettingthenumbersuptothebillionswhereitwouldneedtobetomake

amassive,widechange,becausethat'swhatwe'retalkingabouthere.

David:Wellit,Ican'tchoosebetweenthesetwochoices(...).

(Laughter)

Questioner:Youdon’thaveto.

David:Imeanit,soIdon'tthinkoneprojectcanscaletosolveallthoseproblems.ImeantheUSnow,isitfivehundredmillion,somebodyhelp,inthenewObamaeducationplan,overthenext...

Questioner:Yeah.

David:...tenyears,fivehundredmillion,overthenexttenyearsforopencourses,openmaterial,

whatever,forhighschoolandcommunitycolleges.

Stephen:Happilythat'sstillabitundefined.

David:Yeah,Imean...

Stephen:Isay‘happily’becausetheinitialpresumptionwas,ohit'llbelikecourseware,buthopefullynot.

David:Orliketextbooks.It'shardtosaywhereit’sgoing,butatsomepointthoughthey'regoingtohavetodispersethemoney,andbeforethathappensitwillhavetobedefinedandthere'llhavetoberules

forwhogetsit...

Stephen:Becauseeverytimeyouinvolvemoneythat'swhathappens.

David:Right.Sothatanswertoyourquestions:both.Itneedstosucceed,itneedstoreachadecentnumbertosetanexampleforotherstogetinvolvedindoingitbecauseit'sgoingtotakealotofpeopleworkingonthatmodeltoreachthescaleyouwant,but,andmaybe,youknowI'mjusttooeasily

pleasedorI'mtooconservativebut,butIthink,kindoffirstit’simportantforFlatWorldtosavetwoandahalfmillionbucks...

Questioner:That'sareplicablemodel.

David:...isa,wellit'sareplicablemodel,butIalsothinkthat'sadecentfirstsemesterforacompany.Ohyeah,ifyouwantedtobeabletosay,not,that'snotthebottomlineofhowmuchmoneythey(get?),

it'showmuchmoneytheysave,it'sadoublebottomlinethat,youknow,thattheycallit,what'sthesocialgoodthatwedid,inadditiontomakingenoughmoneytokeepthebusinessgoing,youknow,so...

Stephen:But...there'sacertainpointatwhichthat'smoremarketingthanitisreal.

David:More...

Stephen:Because,Imean,Iput(sawstartsinthebackground)mythingon‘Stephen’sGuidetoLogical

Fallacies’17,in1995andsincethen,Idon'tknow,demonstrablytenthousandpeoplehaveusedthatinsteadofatextbook,thereforemyresourcehassaved,youknow,howevermanythousandsormillionsorwhateverofdollars.

David:Don'tyouwishyouhadabetterhandle,don'tyouwishyouactuallyknew,orhadabetter

estimateof?

17http://www.fallacies.ca/

Stephen:Nobecauseit'sjustmadeup...

David:How,how,howisitmadeup?

Stephen:...madeup,it'smadeupinthesamewaythat,youknow,the,thesalesfiguresthatCDcompaniessaythey'velosttopiratesismadeup.It'smoneytheythinkthattheywouldhavemadehad

thesethingsotherwisenotbeenshared.It'smoneythatwasnotactuallyspentbutthroughsomecalculationtheysayitwouldhavebeen,andit'sthe‘wouldhave’beenpartthatmakesitmadeup.Yousee?Alternativescenario,right?FlatWorlddoingwhateveritdoes,savestwoandahalfmilliondollars

overthecourseofayear,right?Isthattheonlywaytoreplacethattextbookcontent?Wellprobablynot,therearemaybeotherwaysthatsaveevenmore,andmaybehadoneofthoseotherwayscomeintoplaceinsteadofFlatWorld,that'swhatactuallywouldhavebeenspentthatyear,right?Andso,if

weapplyourhypotheticalthatway,theuseofFlatWorldactuallycostmoney.

David:Right,butthat'sahypotheticalandthisissomethingthat'sactuallyhappening.

Stephen:Butnotnextyear.

David:Thisfall.

Stephen:Thisfall,it'sinthefuture,ithasn'thappenedyet.

David:Thefacultymembershavealreadyadoptedthetextbooks,Imeanthat,thatallhappenedinMarchandApril.

Stephen:Yeah,butit'safutureevent,itcouldhavecomeoutdifferently.

Jeff:There'sanotherquestion...

(Laughter)

Questioner:...roleofinstitutionsandmodelsforaccreditation,cantheywork,soperhapsafteryourquestionyoucangoontothoselasttwotopics?

Stephen:Iprobablydon'twanttothrowoffaccreditationuntillaterbut...

Questioner:Yeah,sure.

Stephen:...I,Ithinkthere,thereisanimportantpointhereandthatI'mreallystrugglingtobringout,butIexpectsuccessatsomepoint(Shortlaugh)but...

David:Ireallyamtryingtounderstand.

Stephen:Yeah,no,that'sfairenough.

Questioner:Idowanttoreallypointitout,commercialentities,becausewe'rekeenonwhatyou'redoing,becauseforourproject,formyuniversity'sprojectthatwassomething,thatwasariskand...I

guesswhatI'mreallycuriousaboutisforcourseslikeaspecialistartanddesign,mediaandperformance

institution,sowedon'treallyhaveanyuseoftraditionaltextbookskindofinthewaythat,thatyouwoulddiscuss.Wouldyouuseamarker?I'mjustwonderinghowto,inadifferentcontext,whatyou

mightthinkconcernsforothermediais?Imeanforus,whatwe,whatwedoiscreatefullunitsofcourses,notanentirecoursebutfullunitsandmakethemfreelyavailable,soit'sthelectures,it'sthevideos,it'sabasisforstudentstoputuptheirworkandtocollaboratewitheachotherand....

David:And,andwhat'stheriskthatyou'reperceiving?I’mjustwonderingifthere'saparallelriskto,

again,possibly...

Stephen:Yeah,letme.I'mnotgoingsayrephrasebecauseI'mnotrephrasingwhatyousaid,butI'minterpretingitinaway.Let'stakethecoursethatGeorgeandIdidlastfall18,andwhatGeorgeandIdidlastfallisinsteadofdoingitthenormalcoursekindofwayweopeneditupandsaid,“Anybodywho

wantstocanparticipateandshareallthecontentandalltheresources”,veryOERthatsortofmodel,butalsothe,thequote‐unquote‘instruction’,andwhathappened,andthisisreallyimportant,isthatthenatureoftheinstructionchangesandsoalso(asanaside)thenatureoftheassessmentchanges,

butkey,thenatureoftheinstructionchanges,becauseit'snolongeracaseofaninstructortryingtoleadacohortthroughabodyofmaterials.It'smoreGeorgeandIsortof,Idon'tevenwanttousetheword‘orchestrating’becausethat'stooorganisedaword,butwealmostbecameliketwoamongthis

massofpeopleworkingwithalloftheseresourcesandworkingwithallofthisconversationandthere,thereisn'tevenacentretothecourse,it's,it'sdistributedacrossdifferentapplications,differentplatforms,differentlanguages(becausewehaveastrongSpanishlanguagecomponenttothecourse)

andsowhathappenedhereis,theverymodelofyourtypicaluniversitycoursebreaksdown,nowthisisthesortofthingthatworksbestandpossiblyonlywithoutthecoursetextbook,withoutthestandardcurriculum,withoutthetrappingsofthemodelthatisbeingpreservedthroughthetwoandahalf

milliondollarsavings,right.

David:SoyouandGeorgedidn'tsetoutasetofreadingsandasuggestedorderinwhichpeoplehadtoreadthosereadings?

Stephen:Wesetout,wellIwanttobecarefulherebecauseinasensewedid,wesetoutsomereadings,

wecertainlydidn'tsaythatpeopleshouldreadthereadings,wesuggestedinfactthatpeopleshouldpickandchoosefromamongthematerialsthatwesuggested,orthatotherpeoplesuggested,therewasnosenseofa‘bodyofcoursecontent’thattheywereexpectedtomaster.Infactwesaidvery

specifically,Isaid,andIthinkGeorgeechoed(maybenotasdirectly),selectthematerialsthatarerelevanttoyou,toyourowncircumstance.Weexpectpeopletoeachhavereaddifferentthings,becausethere'ssomuchstuff,right?Andwhathappensis,peoplereaddifferentthingsandthenwhen

theyinteractwitheachother,that'swherethenewknowledgeiscreated,wherethelearninghappensbecauseeachpersoncomesintotheconversationwithadifferentperspective,adifferentpointofview,sotherearereadings,thereisanorder,butthereadingsareentirelyoptionalandtheorderismostly

optionalaswell,doesthatmakesense?So,the,theidea...

David:Soundsalotlike(Long?)actually,there'salotofstructurebuteverything'soptional.

18http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/

Stephen:LikeLong?

David:Lotsofstructure,everythingoptional.

Stephen:Yeah,exceptthestructureexistedonlybecausewehadtoputitonawebpage.Imean,thestructureisanaccidentalfeatureofthepresentationandnotanessentialfeatureofwhatwewere

tryingtocreate.Whatweweretryingtocreateisthisnetwork,andtheprocess,allweweredoing,wasattemptingtoconnect,andmostlywewereattemptingtoconnectnotbyinstructingpeopleonhowtoconnectbutbydoingitourselvesinanenvironmentwhereotherpeoplecouldtakepartandshare.

David:Somodellingitratherthantalkingaboutit.

Stephen:That'sright.Okay,now,youmaythinkthat'sagoodwayoflearning,youmaynotthinkit'sa

goodwayoflearning,theremaybeotherbetterwaysoflearningthatcomealong,that'sfine,thepointis,isthatthingsthatacttopreservetheexistingstructureoflearningmakethingsliketheConnectivistcourselesslikelyand...

David:D'...

Stephen:...that,that'sreallybadlyargued.(Shortlaugh)Idon'twanttosayitlikethatbecausethat'snot

whatImeanbecausethenI'minthepositionofhavingtodefendthislittlecausalargument,right?Idon'twanttodefendthislittlecausalargumentbecauseit'snotagoodcausalargument,but,butIdowanttosuggestthat,when,whenyoudothingsthathelpentrenchtheexistingmodeloflearningwith

existingcoursesandexistingresourcesliketextbooks,likecourses,youknow,allthesecoursepackages,andsay,thisisthebarwemustsetforlearning,andthisisthethingthatpeoplemustdoinordertoqualifyforfundingor,or,orevenqualifyforbeingallowedtodoit(whichisreallywhatitis,because,

youknow,youpulloffwhatGeorgeandIdidwithverylittlefunding)youknowyoulockyourselvesintothismodelwhichreallyisaveryexpensivewayofdoingit,thismodelofhavingaclass,ofmarching

throughatextbook,ofhavingateacher,ofhavingassignmentsthattheymark,isaveryexpensiveway,thatmodelisexpensive,andsavingtwoandahalfmilliondollarsoffofafivehundredmilliondollarmodeldoesn'treallycutit.

David:OhIagree,that's...

Stephen:Youknow...

David:...Imeanthat'sthefirstsemesteroutofthechutewithonlysixtextbooksand...

Stephen:Yeah,butnonetheless,preservingthatmodelisn'tgoingtosolvetheproblemthatI'mtryingto

address,andtheproblemthatI'mtryingtoaddressisaccesstoeducationforallthosepeoplewhodon'thaveaccesstoityet,notsavingmoneyfor,forlargecommercialinstitutionsthatareofferingittopeoplewhoareabletopaytuition.

David:Ohtheinstitutionsdon'tsavemoney,the,thestudentsdo.

Stephen:Buttheystill,youknow,theyonlysavemoneyifthey'reinthisprogrammeandpayingtuition,so,youknow,youhavetoberichenoughtosavethatkindofmoney.

David:YouknowIwonderif‐ohand,sorry,Iacknowledgeandunderstandthe,thehypothetical

enclosurerisksthatStephenwastalkingabout,Ihaven'tseenthemplayoutineightorsoyearsofworkingwithlicensedstuff,Iwouldn'tworryaboutitalotbutStephenwillworryaboutitalotsoyougetnoconclusiveanswerfromthetwoofus.

Stephen:Butyou'reworkingfromwithintheenclosure,ofcourseyou'renotgoingtoseeit.

David:Right,that'swhatIwasjustabouttosay,insomewaysit'slike,and,andmakingthisargument

doesn'tbodewellforme,butifyouthinkaboutthereformationofthechurchacoupleofcenturiesago,youhadpeopleinsidethechurchworkingtoreformitandthenyouhadpeoplethatjustpunchedoutandsaid,“Forgetit,we'rejustgoingtogodoourownthing”,andyoueventually,youknow,something,

nowthereis,Idon'tknowifyou'dcallitamarket,maybe,maybeecologyisabetterword,butthere'ssomepeoplethataremembersofthischurchandsomethatarewiththatchurch,whatever.

ButsomethingthatIthinkthisdialogueishelpingmeunderstandisI,IthinkI'msomewherebetweenaninformal,internalreformerandhackeroftheexistingsystemwehave.Andyou’remorelikethe

PresbyteriansortheLutheransortheMethodists,“I'mjustgoingpunchoutandgostartsomethingbetter,”kindofapproach,soisthatafaircharacterisation?

Stephen:Ithinkit'safaircharacterisationexceptthatIdon'twanttojustsetupanotherchurch,youknow.ImeanIthinkthat'sreallyimportant,so,Imeanthat'spartofthereasonthis,ofthereformation

argumentis,youknow,allwegotoutofitwasmorechurchesand...

Jeff:YouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou.

Stephen:AndyouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou,youknow,andthat,that'snotreally,youknow...

It'smorelikereading,therewasatimewhenonlypeopleinthechurchwereabletoreadand,and

maybeafewselectedfewnoblesprovidedtheyhadallegiance,andreadingwasthesecretgatewaytotheknowledgeoftheothersandallofthat,andifyou'reanaverageperson,yousimplydidn'treadandprobablythebigchangethatLutherbroughttothechurchwas,wasnotLutheranism,butthe

movementofthelanguageofthechurchfromLatintoGerman,andeventuallytoEnglishaswell,themovementand,andthecapacityforpeopletobeabletoreadtheGospelsforthemselves.ItwasalwaysthecasethattheydependedontheprieststoreadtheGospels,right?Andyouhadtohavethis

intercession.

David:Wellandifyouthinktwentyninethousanddollarsforoneninetyninecentsongisaharshpenalty...

Stephen:Yeah,yeah.(Laughs)

David:Okay,thisisatopicIknowalittlebitabout.SothereweretimeswhenjustpossessinganEnglishcopyoftheScriptures...

Stephen:Absolutely.

David:...wouldnotonlycostyouyourlife,life,butyou'dalwaysforfeitland,goodsandlifefromyour

heirs,soyou...

Stephen:Yeah,youloseeverything.

David:...havetheEnglishScriptures,youdie,yourfamilydies,werepothefarm,allthecattle,everything.ImeanyouthinktheDMCAisharsh.

(Laughter)

Stephen:So...

David:It'sgotnothingontheearlychurch.

Stephen:Soyoucanseewhyworkingforwithreformwithinthechurchontheonehandpeoplewouldseetheadvantagesofthat,butontheotherhand,therewasgoingtobeacertainlimittowhatyou

couldaccomplish,youknow,andeventoday,Imeanthere,it'sstillLatin,wellnonotreallyanymoreisit,but,butwasupuntilnottoolongago...

David:Itdependsonwhereyouattend.

Stephen:Yeah,that'sright,.AndIthinklearningisthatwaynow.Comparelearningnowtoliteracyinthepast.Nowyouneedtogotothechurch,akatheuniversity,andhaveyourlearningmediatedforyou,

andwhetherthatmediationtakestheformofacoursepackageoratextbookoraprofessor'slecture,nonethelessthemodelstillisthat,andtherereallyisn'tverymuchtinkeringyoucandowiththemediation,maybeyoucanmakethemediationalittlebitmoreefficient,maybeyoucanmakethe

mediationalittlemoreresponsivetotheneedsofthepeasants,butit'sstillmediation,andwhatweneedistofindawayofmovingbeyondthatbecausemediationisaveryexpensivewayofenablinga

populationtolearnandithasthedangerofbeingusedinthesamewaythatthePopewasused,notsimplyto,tospreadtruthbutalsotospreadpoliticsandpropagandaandtherest.Ithasthepotentialofbeingabused.

David:Sure,everythinghasthepotentialofbeingabused.

Stephen:Youknow,no,notsomuch,but...

David:Isn't,isn'tonlinecontentjustanasynchronistmediation?

Stephen:Wellnow...

David:BecausesomebodyelseisgoingtoproducecontentandI'mgoingtositdownandI'mgoingtousethatcontent,it'snotfreeofpoliticsandbias,amongstotherthingssuddenlyjustbecauseit's

asynchronous.

Stephen:Butnowwearein,nowweareintoamuchmoreinterestingdiscussion,right?BecauseifanOERissomethingthatwaspaidforthroughhundredsofmillionsofdollarsofgovernmentorfoundationmoneyandwascreatedbysomeuniversityprofessorinhisofficeaccordingtosomesetofstandards,

thenyes,it'sexactlythat,it'saunitofmediation,ifontheotherhandanOERisaresourcecreatedbyandformembersofacommunity...

David:Itdoesn'tmediatethelearningprocess?

Stephen:Notinthesameway.Imean...

David:How,how'sthat?

Stephen:Not,wellImeannotremotely,Imeanit'slikeyou'resaying,tojustdrawaparallelofyourargument,I'mcomplainingthattheGospelshavebeenmediatedbecausethey'recomingtomethrough

thelecturesofpriestsorthingslikethat,andI'msaying,reallyweshouldbeabletoreaditforourselves,inourownlanguageandyou'resaying,“Wellisn'tlanguagekindoflikeamediationtoo?”,andwell,yeah,itis...

David:NoI'msayingit's...

Stephen:...butit'sanorderofmagnitudedifferent.

David:I'msayingthattheScripturesarethemediationandwhetheryoutalktoapriestaboutitor

whetheryoumeetwithbunchofotherpeoplelikeyouinBiblestudyandtalkaboutit,that,thatcontentismediation,itwaswrittenbysomebodyatsomepoint,yousitdown,you'restudyingit,you'reeitherhearingitinterpretedbyanexpertoryou'retalkingwithagroupofyourpeersaboutit,butthefocusof

thatwholethingisthepieceofcontent,andwhetherit'sproducedbyaprofessororbyJo‐Bobinwherever,there'sthispieceofcontentnowsittingonmyscreenthatI'mlookingatandI'mhavinga

discussionwithotherpeopleaboutthatcontent'samediating...

Stephen:Butit'saverydifferentthingforyouandyourcommunitytobesittingtheremessingaroundwiththelanguageoftheScriptureitself,andforyoutobesittingthere,takingsomeguy'swordforitthatthisiswhattheScripturesays,twoverydifferentthings,andthesameistrueforopeneducational

resources,ifmembersofthecommunityarecreatingthese,usingthese,sharingthese,doingwhateverwiththese,that'sverydifferent,tohavedirecthandsonaccesstothisknowledge,tothisdomain,verydifferentthandependingonsometrustedexpert,professororwhatevertobesaying,“Thisiswhat

knowledgeinthatdomainis”.

David:Butistheonlydifferencetherewhetheryoutaketheperson'swordforitornot?Oristhattheprimarydifference?

Stephen:If,ifthepersonistrustworthy,right?Well,goodquestion.Iwasgoingsay,ifthepersonistrustworthythenreallyitboilsdowntothesamething.ButIdon'tthinkso,because,Imean,Ithink,the

provenanceoftruthmattersasmuchasthecontent,youknow,beingabletoseeforyourselfisworthmorethanbeingtoldbyatrustedpersonthathesawsuchandsuch...

David:Right,but,but(talkingtogether)...

Stephen:YoumaybelievethatPinbothcasesbutthere'ssomethingdifferent.Seeingitforyourself,evenifyoucometothesamebelief,hasmoreofameaninginyourlifethancomingtothatbelief

throughthemediationofsomeotherperson.

David:Butifyou'vecometothatexperienceoryou'vecometothatconclusionoryou'vedrawnthatmeaningfromapieceofcontent,thenwhetherthatcontentwascreatedbyaprofessionalorbyapeer,thatpieceofcontenthasstillhasstillplayedthatcriticalroleinyourmakingofthatmeaning.

Stephen:Yeah,butit'sthedifferencebetweenonevoiceandathousandvoices,youknow,likethe,the

professorwillusewordsandyourfriendswillusewordsandthosewordsareinbothcasesmediationsofwhateverisoutthere,butyourprofessorhasonepointofviewandyourfriendshaveathousandpointsofviewandevenifthetwomechanismsresultinthesamebelief,themechanismthatresulted

fromathousandeyes,athousandvoicesisgoingtobemorereliable,goingtomeanmorethanthemechanismthatreliesonsetofeyesandonevoiceand,anditneedsmore,notsimplybecauseyouthinkit'smorelikelytobetrue,whatevertheresultingfactis,right,you,youcanbelievethatPjustas

stronglyinbothcases,butinthecaseofthecommunity,youareapartoftheproductionoftheknowledge,thatP,andinthecaseoftheprofessor,youarenotapartoftheproductionofthatknowledge,andconsequently,yourrelationtothatknowledgeisverydifferent,thisknowledge,where

youarepartoftheproduction,alsoservestoempoweryou,thisknowledgemakesyouapassiverecipient.

David:Nowtherearesomeassumptionsthereaboutthekindofinteractionsyouhavewith...

Stephen:Absolutely.Thereareassumptions.Butwe'rebeingwrappedup.

Jeff:It’stimewewrappedup,wedidnotgettoaccreditationandtrans‐substantiationbut...

(Laughter)

Jeff:Weneedtopickupatthreefifteenso,takeabreak,getsomeairandwe'llcontinuethiswonderful

conversation,thankyou,thanks.

David:WellIdidn'tthinkIwasnearthat….

Stephen:Therearelotsofthingswedidn't...

(Laughter)

PartFour‐What'sNext?WhyBother?Segment4(3:15‐4:45)

Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley4.mp3

• RatesofOERReuse:IsAlltheTroubleWorthIt?• IsitEverOKnottobeOpen?• WhatNeedstoHappenNextfor/to/withOpenEducation?

Moderator:DaveCormier

DaveCormier:Welcometosessionnumberfour.I’mthemoderatorforsessionnumberfour,mynameisDaveCormier.Inormallygetchosenforthesesituationswhensomebodywantssomeoneto

aggravatesomeoneelse.Iamuniversallyknownasthatkindofaggravatinginfluence.ButI’mgoingtotry,givenagreementfromthefellowsoverhere,thataskforthirtyminutesofthenexthourandabit,totryandaggravatethem,andaskaspecialkindofquestion.

IthinkitwasonSaturdayIgotthepiecesforthispartanditwas“WhataboutOERreuse?”AndIthink

that’smostlyamathematicalquestion,wekindofprettymuchknowtheanswertothatquestion.“Wheredoesitgofromhereandwhydoesitmatter?”Ithoughtitmightbeinterestingtohaveacoupleoffiveminutegoesatthreesuccessivequestions.Thefirstoneis“Lookintothefuture,andimaginethe

mostdystopicsituationpossibleforOER,whatareyouafraidofhappening,ifthisthinggoesthewrongway?”

WhenIthinkaboutthat,Isortofcontextualisethatquestionby“What’sgoingonintheUKrightnowtomymind?”WhichistheBritishgovernmenthasstartedtotalkaboutputtingoutOERinasenseof

raisingEngland’sstatus.Andthere’saconnectiontherethatIfindpotentiallydistracting.Andcertainlythere’sacontrollinginfluencetherethatmaybeoneofthosepotentialdystopicfutures.

Thesecondquestionis“Whatdoyouexpecttohappen?”andthethirdoneis“Imaginethewonderfulfuture,withtheperfectthingthatwillneverreallyhappen,butyou’dreallyliketohavehappen,would

actuallyhappen.”Daviddidtouchonthatalittletinybit,butIwonderifwecouldexplorethatquestionalittlebitfurther.Becausethereareacoupleofothertopicsonthetable,I’mnotaskingfortheentirehour,fifteenminutes,butratherfortwenty,twenty‐two,twenty‐threeminutes.Three,fourfiveminute

piecesfromeachofyou.Andthenyouguyscangetbackandwrapstuffupattheend.Howdoesthatsound?Thatsoundlikefun?

David:Soundslikeyou’redictatingthetermsofourconversation.(smiling)

Dave:I’mjustsuggestingapossiblealternative,inafriendlyopenway.

David:No,soundsgood.

David:Okay.Dystopicfirst.

Stephen:Sogoahead.

David:I’mtryingtodecidewhataretheawful,awfulfuturescenarios.Sooneawfulfuturescenariowouldbe…IthinkitwouldbeanawfulfuturescenarioifOER,ifsomeversionofOER,saythisOERthat

ObamaisfundingnowintheUS,becamesopopularthatitbecamethedefactokindofstandards.There’sonlyonealgebracoursethatanyonereallyevertook.Andeventhoughitwasopen,youdidn’tmesswithitbecauseit’stheonethatwasdesignedbytheexperts.OERsomehowturnedintosomekind

ofanationalcurriculum.That’sadisasterfutureforusIthink.

Isupposeit’s,Iusedthewordecologyearlierintheday,inthesamewaythatIthinkthatwehaveLinuxandOSXandWindowsinanecologyofcompletelyopen,completelyclosed,someclosedstuffbuiltonsomeotherstuffthatwasopen,kindofspreadacrossthecontinuumthere.IseeOERincommercial

content,inaminuteI’mgoingtosayIthinkreallytheyjustkindofbalanceout,andsomepeopleadopttheopenandsomeadopttheclosedandwhatever.

ButIsupposethereissomekindofscenarioequivalenttothenon‐nativepredatorbeingintroduced,thatcomesinanddestroyseverythinginthenaturalenvironment.WhereOERcansomehowputallof

thecommercialpublishing,thecommercialpublishersoutofbusiness.Whichwouldthenhaveanimpactonotherthings,whichwouldthencollapsedownandwould,youknow...StephenhasajobandIhaveajob,butwe’repaidtodoonething,butwegettoproducealotofOERontheside,andjustcallit

partofwhatwedoandwegetourrentpaidanyway.Isupposethere’ssomecatastrophicchainreactionthathappensasOERcannibalisescertainthings,thatmakeitsothatevenStephenandIdon’thavejobs

anymore.Andwe’releftwithoutrealcommercialalternatives,andwithoutalotofpeoplethatcanactuallycreateOER,andthewholethingjustcompletelycollapsesinonitselfintoablackholesomehow.Sortofsimilartowhatmayormaynotbehappeningwithnewspapersrightnow,sopeople

aresiphoningoffnewspapercontentordoingwhateveryouwanttocallit.Ifthenewspapersactuallyallwentoutofbusiness,wouldthebloggersbeabletoreallygenerateenoughnewsoftheirown?Insteadofjustpointingtoothers?Ifthatcollapsed,andthenthisbecameunstable,andthenitcollapsedaswell,

thenwhatareyouleft,startingoverfromscratchagain.Icanimagine…you’reaskingforworstcasescenario.Icanimagineonelikethatintheworldofeducationalcontent.

Dave:That’ssuitablydystopic.Thankyou.IknowthiswillbeastretchforyouSteven,canyouimaginedystopic?

David:AndI’vetakentheeasyonessofar.

Stephen:Yeah,he’stakentheeasyones.Imean,‘oneOERforall’isprobablyasbad‘asoneringforall,’19youknow.Sothatobviouslyisaprettybadfuture.Therearevariationsonthatbadness,ifyoucan

believeit.Becauseyouknow,justlikethedictatorship,whereyouhaveonerulerforallright,youcanhavebenigndictatorshipsandyoucanhavetrulyhorribledictatorships,andtheneveryshadeinbetween.AndsowecanimagineaversionofoneOERforallwherethepurposesofthatOERare

genuinelyevil.Youknow,whereit’snotsimplyoneOERforall,butoneOERina1984‐ishsense,wherethepurposeofeducationbecomesnotlearningandedification,anddevelopmentofyourownpersonalgood,butrathersubserviencetothestate,orsomecorporaterepresentativethereof.Youknow,the

sacrificeofyourowninterestforthegoodsofthemany,asdefinedasthegoodoftheonepersonwho’sinchargeofeverything,youknowwhatImean.SoImean,andthisiswhywequiterightlyareafraidofoneOERforall.It’snot,Imeanit’snotanumberthing,it’snotthatonenessisinherentlybad;it’sjust

thatwhenthere’sonlyone,whenitgoesbad,itreallygoesbad,youknow.Andthere’snowayout,anditcangosouthinahurry.SoIthinkthere’sthat.

Dave:IsgoingsouthareferencetotheUS?

Stephen:No,goingsouth…Butitcouldbe,itcouldbe.AlthoughweliketothinknowthattheUnitedStateshasturnedandisgoingnorth.Althoughthat’snotnecessarilyagoodthingeither,now,never

mind.

Soletmefocusontheotherdystopianfuture,becauseit’stheonewhereallthepublishersareputoutofbusiness.Andit’stheonewhere,likewithnewspapers,they’recannibalisedbytheblogs.Andthatwasrepresentedasabadthing.Andyouknow,theworldwherethesepublishersandthesenewspapers

aretheoneswhoactuallyprevail,andtheirviewoftheworldbecomescurrent,seemstometobethebadthing.

Overtime,andtherearesomesciencefictionbooksthatdealwiththis,andforthelifeofmeIcan’t

rememberatitle–I’vebeentrying‐heremoreandmoreandmoreofourcommonordinaryeverydaylivesbecomecommercialised.Somuchsothattheverywordsthatweuseinourconversationareinfactownedbyconsortia.Andsoformetobespeakinglikethis,Iwouldactuallyhaveapocketmonitor

thatrecordseverywordthatIsay,anddeductsanamountoutofmybankaccounttopaytotheownerofthatword,fortheuseofthatword.

Andnotjustwords.Wordsrepresentsimplythefirstelementofthissystemofpropertyownership.Butalsosequencesofwords.SoifIusedthephrase“sequencesofwords”,IhavetopayMicrosoftforthe

useoftheword“sequences”becausetheyobviouslyownsequences.“Of”,thatgoestoCocaCola.And“words”goestoWebster’s,right.ButthenIhavetopayinadditionforthephrase“sequencesofwords”IhavetopayAppleforthat.Thatwouldbeworse.

Andit’sworsebecausewhatitmeansis,youknow,theverycapacityforthoughtthatImayhaveispre‐

owned.Youknow,Icannothaveanythingthatisnotalreadyownedbysomeoneelse.Andit’snotsimplythatIhavetopaythemmoney.It’sthatbecausetheyownthesewords,notonlycantheycharge

19http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Ring

memoneyforthem,buttheycanregulatetheappropriateuseofthosewords.Solike“sequenceofwords”,thatphrase,therewouldbeattachedtomyuseofthatphrase“sequenceofwords”,aclick‐

throughlicenceifyouwill,thatallowsmetouse“sequenceofwords”onlyincontextswhereIamreferencingorsupportingthecommercialuseofthephrase“sequencesofwords”,andnotinanywaycriticisingorsuggestingsomealternativetotheownershipofthatphrase“sequencesofwords”.

Andyoumightthinkthat’sprettysilly,butthat’stheAppleAppstorenow.Soit’snotthatfarfetched.I

thinkthat’sworseeventhanoneOERforall.IfwehadoneOERforall,butitweretrulyandgenuinelyshareableandwecoulddowhateverwewantedwithit,thatwouldn’tbeasbadasthisworldinwhicheverythingisowned.Andthenfinally,whatwouldbereallybadwouldbetogobacktothatworldin

whichourunderstandingoftheworldiscreatedforusstrictlyandsolelybypublishersandnewspapers.It’snotthatfar,it’snotthatlongagothatthatwasourworld.AndI’moldenoughtorememberit.

David:I’mnot.

Stephen:No.AndIwasactuallygoingtosaysometimeduringthesession,youknowweweregoingtosaywe’rebeingveryciviltoeachother,butthat’sbecauseI’molderthanyou.

David:Respectforelders.

Stephen:No.You’regoingtooutliveme,whichmeansIhavetobenicetoyou,ormyreputationwillbe

trashedafterI’mgone.

David:Putdowns.IrememberIcanusethatone.

Stephen:Butyouknow,Imean,theGulfofTonkinincidentoryouknow,alloftheserealitiesthatwerecreatedforusandshapedforusbymedia,andthenpresentedtousastruth,orattheveryleastasobjectiverepresentationsofthestateofaffairsoftheworld.Which,asweknownow,turnedouttobe,

toalargedegree,false.Eveninthisdecade,therepresentationofthingslikeweaponsofmassdestructioninIraq,right?Imean,thatwaswhatwewerebeingtold,period,endofstory.Ifyoudidn’t

believethat,youwereacommunistoranAlQaedasympathiserorsomethinglikethat.Certainlynoonetobetrusted,muchlessallowedtopublish.Sothatwouldbeworse,ifourknowledgeoftheworldcamefromthesesourcesthewayitusedto?Canyouimaginethiscenturybeinglikethelast?Likewereally,

reallydon’twantthat.

David:Atthesametimeifthe,ifyoujustturnthetablesandyoureplace…ifinthenameofdiversityofperspectiveanddiversityofviewpoint,westompedoutnewspapersormagazinesortelevisionorwhatever,Iwouldthinkthateventhoughyoucanarguerathereasilythattheperspectivesthey

representarebiasedinonedirection,orbiasedinanother.

Stephen:Orboth.

David:Whatever.Both.Idothinkthatthey’revaluablecontributionstotheconversation,aslongasyouareparticipatinginaconversationjustnotwatchingFoxnewsallnightlong.SoifOER,ifyouendupinaworldwhereonlyjustlikeoneoddortwooddguyswerejusttalkingaboutstuffandyoudidn’thave

biggerpeopledoingmorein‐depththings,regardlessofwhatbiastheybroughttoit,Ithinkthatwouldbeaworseworldthanwehaverightnow.

Dave:JonStewartisverywellservedbymassmedia.

David:JonStewart’sgoingtobepresidentintenyears.

Dave:Ithoughthewasalready.

David:Official.

Stephen:Afterhelosestheshowandhe’slookingfornewwork.It’sgoingtobethebesthecanfind.

Dave:Iwanttogetyouguysbackontrackeventuallytotheend,wrapuptheotherconversation.So

maybeit’seasierifweaskthethirdquestionnext,aboutthespeculativeawesomefuture.Andthengobacktoexpectationsofthefutureandallowyoutowrapupthecoupleofquestionsthatwerelaggingfromearlier.

Stephen:CanIsayjustonething?

Dave:Sure.

Stephen:Thankyou.Ithinkthisisareallyimportantlinktodrawjustatthispointintime.Thedystopian

futurethatIdepictedwherecompaniesownallofourwords.I’vesaidonanumberofoccasions,andotherpeoplehavemadethesamepointaswell,thatourlanguageoftodayisamultimedialanguage,thatpeoplecommunicatetodaynotonlyinwordsanymore,butinthesemultimediaartefacts.These

multimediaartefacts,picturesofducks,arethewordsthatpeopleusetocommunicatewitheachother.So,anditistheownershipofthesewords,thesemultimediawords,thatwearedebatingatthispoint.Andsothat’s,thedystopianfuturemightseemreallyfarfetched,thatyouhavetopayforeveryuseof

yourword,butifthewordisanimage,nowthatjustisthesortofschemethat,youknow,AssociatedPressforexamplerightnowishatching.Whereyouknow,youusetheirphrases,youusetheirpictures,

you’regoingtobemonitoredandcharged.

David:That’sthedangerofthesemanticweb.

Stephen:Itis,seriously.Everythingispartofthegreatconversation,andeverypartofthegreatconversationisownedbysomeone.Andthatsomeoneisnotyou.Sorry,Ijust,Ineededtothrowthatin,becauseweneedtounderstandwordsinawidercontext.Becauseotherwisetheargumentseemsreally

absurd–whoownswords?Butthat’swhatdidworkinthepast,andthat’sexactlywhatpeoplearetryingtobreakaboutthefuture.SorryIjust…I’mdone.

David:Youhavetogofirstontheperfectfuturevision.

Stephen:Me?

David:Please.Iwentfirstonthelastone.Ibetneitherofushaveactuallyspentverymuchtimethinkingaboutthis.

Stephen:Iactually…

Dave:IaskedbecauseI’vebeenfollowingtheconversationbetweenyouguysforyears.It’sjustoccurredtomethat,havingthehappyconversationbetweeneachothermaybeoneyou’venever,ever

heardbefore.AndIthoughtitmightbeinteresting.

David:That’swhatI’msaying.

Stephen:Imeantherearedifferentperfectfutures,right.There’smyperfectfuture,oneinwhichIliveforever.

(laughter)

Dave:Youcouldmakethathappenifyoureallywantedto.It’sinyourcontrol.

Stephen:Yeah,andthenthere’stheperfectfutureofsocietyasawhole.OneinwhichwealloutliveIdon’tknow…IwasgoingtosayFrankSinatra.It’sbeenalongday.

David:Yeah,it’sgettinglate.

Stephen:Butno,ifIhadtocharacteriseitinaphrase,I’dwimpoutandquoteJohnStuartMill,asIhave

already,“Eachofuspursuingourowngoodinourownway,insuchawaythatwedonothinderotherspursuitoftheirowngoodintheirownway.”Whatdoesthatmean?Imeanformethat’saworldofmaximalexperience,maximalenjoymentoflife.Aworldinwhichwe’renotstrugglingforsurvival

anymore,butratherweareconcerned,ifwedefinegoodinthisway,tobecomethemostofwhatwecanbe.Whateverthatis,whateverwethinkthemostof.

Andtherewillbepeopleoutthere,andIcelebratethemforthis,whodefinethatasdrinkingthemostbeertheypossiblycan.Andthat’sokay.Becausetherewillbeotherpeoplewhodothesamethingby

tryingtobethefastesttheypossiblycan.Orgothefurthest,orthinkthedeepest,orsolveFermat’slasttheorem(exceptthat’sbeendone20,becausesomebodyactuallydiddefinethatastheirowngoodin

theirownway).Soit’saworldofself‐determination.It’saworld,wellit’saworldoffreedombasically.

AndIseeopeneducationresources,Iseealltheseresourcesastherichexpressivelanguageandtapestryinwhichwemanifestthisfreedom,inwhichwemanifestourselves.Inwhichweprojectourselves,ourexperiences,ourvalues,ourbeliefs,toourfriendsorfamily,totherestoftheworld.To,

youknow,asmuchoraslittleaswewant.SoIseethisasaworldinwhichweareimmersedandengaged,youknow,asfullyaspossibleinallthepotentialpossibilitiesofexperience,ofbeinghuman.AndIknowthatyouaskedforautopia,soyougetthatkindofutopiawhenyoupushmeonit.You

askedmetogofirst.

David:Istilldon’tknowwhattosay.Iwasstallingbyaskingyoutogofirst.IfIanswerthequestionofwhat,whattheutopiawouldlooklike,Iwillendupwaxingspiritualveryquickly.Soforthebenefitofeveryoneintheroom,I’lljustpassoverthatpartofit.Butwhat’stheutopianendallforOERorforthe

20http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/proof/wiles.html

openeducationmovementorsomethinglikethat,isstillsomethingIdon’tknowtheanswerto.OhI’mgoingtototallycopoutwithagreatquote.

Dave:YoucanquoteStephennow...

David:No.I’mnotgoingtogotoMill,I’mgoingtogotoLinusTorvaldsactually.So,sointalkingabout

thedesignofsoftware,Linussaidthat,said“Don’teverthinkthatyoucandesignsomethingbetterthanwhatyougetfrommassivelyparalleltrialanderrorwithafeedbackcycle.Becauseit’sgivingyourintelligencewaytoomuchcredit.”

Stephen:Yeah.

David:AndIknowtherearepeopleintheworldthathaveagoalofthewaythattheythinktheworld

oughttolookandthewayitoughttowork.Andtheywork,theyworkthemselvessillytowardthisgoalthattheythinkisthisusefulthing.I’mgoingtoendupwaxingslightlyreligiousanyway,so…

Stephen:Goforit,Idon’tmind.

David:I’maMormon,sothat’swhatyougetwhenI’matthefrontoftheroom.MyapproachtolifeisverymuchIrolloutofbedeverydayandwhateveritfeelslikeGodwantsmetodothatdayiswhatI’m

goingtodo.Andifitmeanschanginguniversities,orchangingfieldsorchangingmyresearchdirection,whatever.WhateverfeelstomelikeisthethingthatwillbemostusefultohimiswhatI’mgoingtodo.

AndsoIthinkthatwayofthinking,combinedwiththisviewofLinus’sabout“Don’ttrytohavethisendplanthatyoudriverelentlesslytoward.”Buttrytofosteralot.Beopentoallthesepossibilitiesofthings

thatcanhappen.Andpeopletrythingsandsomewillfailandsomewillsucceed.Andifyoumakethatexperimentationlowcostenoughandlowriskenough,thenmorepeoplecanengageinit.Andthemorepeopletry,themorewillfail.Andthemorefail,themoreitwillsucceed.

Andtome,OERisinterestingbecause,asaplatform,Ithinkitlowersthecostanditlowerstheriskto

differentexperimentsineducation,withdifferentmodelsof…youknowJimleft,blowinguptheuniversity,anddoingsomethingcompletelyontheoutside.Wellthatwouldbereallyexpensivetodoif

youdidn’tjusthappentohaveallofMITopencoursewarebootstrappedforyou,orsomethinglikethat.SoinasmuchasOERwouldfacilitatealloftheseexperiments,thevastmajorityofwhichwouldfail,someofthemwouldbereallyuseful.

Andwe‐okayI’mnotgoingtospeakforyou‐I’veseenthings,I’veseenOERsthatI’vemadeopen,the

mostinterestingthingshaveeverbeendonewiththemwerethingsInever,everanticipated.Butthat’swhathappenswhenyou’reopen.SoformetheutopiangoalforOERisthatOERactuallyprovidesthislowrisk,lowcost,veryinvitingplatformforlotsofexperimentsandlotsoffailure.Whichleadstothen

success,whichturnsouttobeprogresstowardaccesstoeducationforeveryone.Whichthengoes‐youknow,justbeingeducatedisn’ttheendgoal;there’sotherideasabouthaving,livingthekindoflifethatyouwanttolive,andthingslikethat.ThereisasayingthatifyouwanttomakeGodlaugh,tellhimyour

plan,youknow.WhichIlike.Ithinkthat’saJewishsaying.I’dbehappytobecorrectedbysomeoneintheTwitterverseorsomething.That’sverymuchmyapproachtoit.

I’mgoingtokeepdoingexperiments.Thevastmajorityofthemaregoingtofail.MaybetheopenconduitthingistheonethinginmylifeI’llgetright.Orthatwasuseful,youknow,thatmadea

contribution.ButI’mgoingtokeeptryingbecauseit’sfun,andit’swhatIdo.AndifOERmakesitpossibleforlotsofpeopletodothat,thenweeventuallymakesomestepsforward,thenIthinkthat’sthebestwecanaskfor.

Stephen:Yeah,Ithinkthat’sactuallyapointofcommonality.Andthecommonalityistherecognition

thatwe’renotgoingtobeabletomanageororganiseorplanourwaytothisfuturestate,whateverithappenstobe.AndnotonlyGodlaughs,butnaturelaughswhenyoutrytoplan.BecauseImean,there’sacertainsenseinwhichit’simpossible,therearesomanythingsthatcouldhappen.Andthere’s

acertainsense,amoreimportantsensethattheactofplanningisatthesametimeanactoffoolingourselvesintobelievingthatwehaveacausalagencyandindeedanimportanceinthecourseofhistorythatwedon’tinfacthave.

I’mveryinfluencedrightatthismomentbecauseI’vebeenreadingWarandPeace21.AndI’malmost

doneWarandPeace,whichisoneofthesethingsIneverdidplanwouldactuallyhappenbutitlookslikeit’sgoingtohappen.AndoneofthethemesofWarandPeaceyouknow,ofcourseWarandPeaceisabouttheNapoleonicWarsandallofthat.AndNapoleoncausedthis,Napoleoncausedthat.And

Tolstoylooksatitandsaysyouknow“WhatcausedtheinvasionofRussia?WasitjustNapoleonsayingoneday‘I’mgoingtoinvadeRussia’?”Wellno,obviouslynotbecausealltheindividualpeople,thehundredsofthousandsofmeninhisarmyeachhadtohavesomemotivationformarchinginthatarmy

andbeingpartofthatinvasion.Anditisnotpossibletoevenimaginethefullscopeofthathundredthousandsetsofmotivations.Imean,Tolstoystruggleswithadozen,andtakesalmostathousandpagesjusttocoveradozenofthesepeopleandtheirmotivations,muchlessahundredthousand.Sowe

cannotpossiblyimaginethatwecanplanoutthisfuturesociety.Whichmeans,asyousay,wehavetotrymanythingsandfailcheap.AndactuallyTerryAndersonandRandyGarrisonhaveawholetheoryof

organisationaldevelopmentthattheyadvancedalongthisideaof,youknow,beingabletofailcheaply22,andhaving…

A2:…failfast.

A3:…andfailfast.Sothatmeansthat,youknow,themoreorganised,themorestructured,themoresetupthesethingsarethatwe’recreating,themorelikelyitisthatwe’regoingtofailexpensiverather

thanfailcheap.SoImeanabigpartofthepicturethatIhaverevolvesaroundthat.It’slikeIjusthaveamistrustinthesetheoriesoforganisation,thesetheoriesoflearningthatsay“We’regoingtomanageourwaytosuccess.We’regoingtomanageourwaytoaneducatedpopulation.Wearegoingtodoit

foryou.Justgiveusenoughmoneyandwewillhaveaplan,right.”Andweknowthroughhistorythat…

21http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/260022http://www.extension.usask.ca/CJUCE/articles/v25pdf/2511.pdf

eventhingsliketheinvasionofRussiafail.Andifyoucan’tdothat…wellIshouldn’tsayitlikethat,butyouknowwhatImean…

David:Can’teveninvadeRussia!What’sinterestingisthatlineofthinking,whichIthinkwehavein

common,leadsyoutothatconclusion.Theconclusionitleadsmetois,Ican’tseefarenoughintothefuture,(a)becausetherearesomanyvariablesandbecause(b)Idon’treallyunderstandwhatIthinkGod’splanformeallthewaydowntheroadis.WhatIcanseeiskindofthenextdoorthatopenstome.

Youknow,thenextopportunitytodosomething.Andyouknow,Itrytotakethoseopportunitiesandthatresultsinmetaking,youknow,whatIwouldcharacteriseaskindofpragmatic,withinthesystemkindofhackishapproachestotryingtomakeprogressfrominside,becausethat’sthenextopportunity

thatpresentsitselftome.That’swhatlookslikecouldbedone,andsoyouknow…that’stheconclusionthatitleadsmeto.Butitleadsyoutoaverydifferentone.

Stephen:Yeah,becauseIseethoseascoursecorrectionsintheTitanicaftertheiceberg.SorryIdon’tmeanto…butsometimesthesephrasesjustcometome.

David:No,you’reallowedtobeaspessimisticaboutthat‐notthatyou’reapessimistingeneral‐about

thefutureofformaleducationasyouwant.Ithinkitcontinuestobeavaluablepartofamoredynamiceco‐systeminthefuture.Ithinkit’sworthdoingwhatwecantosave,becauseIthinkitmakesavaluablecontribution.

Stephen:Butthere’sadifferencebetweensaying“Ican’tmanagethefuture”,and“Icanknownothing”.

Andwecouldmessaroundwithdifferentmeaningsoftheword“know”,butIwon’tgetintothat,becausewe’vealreadydonesemanticsandtheology;wecanleaveepistemologyoutofthisfortoday.But,butwhatwecanknowinapragmaticeverydaysortofwayis,wecanhavesomesenseof…howdo

Iwanttoputthis?Imean,ifyouwerebuildingabridge,youwouldprobablybuildyourbridgebasedonfairlysimpleNewtonianmechanics,right,forcesandstressesandmaterials,propertiesandthingslike

that.Andalthoughyoucouldn’tseeeverythingthereistoknowaboutthebridge,youknow,willitbeusedto,Idon’tknow…

David:…invadeRussia.

Stephen:…invadeRussia,orwillitbeusedtosendRussianwheattoFrance,whoknows,right?Nonetheless,youcanstillcomeupwithsomeideaaboutbuildingbridges,andhowtobuildabridge

thatwilllast,versushowtobuildabridgethatwillcollapse,youknow.Dependingonyourintention,youmightwantoneortheother.

AndIthinkthesameistrueoforganisationsandstructuresandsocieties.AndIthinkthattherearecorollariestothestatementthat“Wecan’tmanageourwaytothefuture”.Weneedmanyvoices,

thingslikethat.Ithinkthatwecanstructure…oratleastdothesmallthingsthathelpstructureoursystems,oursocialsystemsandourinstitutions,insuchawaythattheydon’tdependonsomebodydoingthisplan.

Asimpleexample:courses.Openeducationalresources.Ifyou’rebuildingopeneducationalresources,andyouwantthemtobere‐used,doyoubuildsomethingreally,reallycomplexandveryspecific,ordo

youbuildsomethingfairlygeneralandnon‐specific?Andyoualreadyknowtheanswertothatquestion,becauseyouwroteapaperaboutit.23Themorecomplex,themorespecific,themoretightlydefinedtheresourcethatwe’rebuilding,thelesslikelywe’regoingtouseit.

David:If,andthisisveryimportant,ifitdoesn’thaveanopenlicence.Ifitdoeshaveanopenlicence,

nowthatcomplex,veryspecificthingiswideopen.Andit’ssomething,sothisisatenyearoldlearningobject,sorry,forthoseofyoujustjoiningusathome.Ifthisresourceisveryspecificandverycontextualisedandtalksaboutlastnight’sFriendsepisodeorwhathappenedonLostorsomething,put

inthisveryspecificcontext.AndIdon’thavepermissiontomakeanychangestoit.

AndthiscomesbacktomyOERasalearningobject,plusanopenlicence.IfIdon’thavepermissiontodoanythingwithit,thenIlookatthat,andtheoddsofitbeingperfectformeareverylow,soIpassonit,justpuntonit.Butifyougiveanopenlicence,thenyoucanaddallthisflavourofthetelevisionshow

andthisandwhatthecurrenteventswerewhenithappened.AndIcansay“Notsomuchofthecartoonfoxes,mykidswouldprefercartoonokapis”.Mydaughter’sanutforokapis24.

Stephen:AndIdon’tevenknowwhattheyare.

David:Theresweetheart,Isaidokapisforyou.They’rerelatedtothegiraffe.

Stephen:Okay.

David:Anyway,Icantakethefoxesout,putokapisinandshewouldlearnRubylikeamadman,becauseitwouldbesomethingcoolforher.Thatpaperthattalksabouthowyoucan’tusethingsthatarereally

specificwaswrittenbyme,authorofoneof,youknow,opencontentlicences,justassumingthatyoucanneverchangeanything–youhadtouseitthewayyoufoundit.Nowwhenyouaddtheopen

licence,itchangeseverything.

Stephen:Nowlet’sconceptualisethat.Ilovedoingthat.Because,now,whatisoneoftheseresources?AndI’mmentioningthis,I’mgoingthisway,becauseIwanttobringinthecontextofmixinglicences.Becausewehaven’taddressedthatatall.

David:AndIhaveonequestionIreallydowanttoaskbeforewe’redone.SoI’mgoingtoholdontothat,

dothenextonefirst.

Stephen:Allright,so…BecausewecouldlookatWhy’sGuideasasingleundifferentiatedentity,inwhichcasealicencethatappliestothewholemust,bydefinition,applytoeverypart,right.Butthewayyou’vejustdescribedit,andIthinkthisistrue,weshouldn’treallythinkofitasoneindividual,one

singleentity,asabunchofthingsbroughttogether.Bitsofwhichcanbeswappedoutasneeded.ReallyWhy’sGuideis,youknow,firstparagraph,secondparagraph,image,anecdote,soonandsoforth.Allof

23http://cnx.org/content/m11898/latest/24http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi

thesethingscombined.Thethingasawhole,justaswithanassemblageofwords,hasanidentity,itmayhavealicenceattachedtoit,butthatlicencedoesnotapplytoeachindividualwordinthe

document,nordoesitapplytoeachindividualentity,picture,whateverinthedocument.

SoIthinkweneedtothinkofthesethings,youknow,theseresourcesthatweputtogether,notassingle,undifferentiatedwholes,butascollections,whereit’stheorganisationofthesepartsthatmayhavealicenceattachedtoit.Butthatlicencedoesnotnecessarily,andshouldnotapplytothe

individualparts.

Ifthat’strue,thatfirstofallgivesmethe‘words’thatIneedformyconversationforustohaveinordertodevelopasalearningcommunity.Becauseeachoneofthesepartsnowconstitutesawordinthatconversation,andaguidelikeWhy’sGuideissomebodysayingsomethingwiththesethings.Butalsoit

addressesthequestionofmixinglicences,becauseitdoesn’tmatterifthepicturehasalicenselike‘non‐commercial’andthefirstparagraphhas,youknow,whatever.Itdoesn’tmatterbecausethelicencedoesn’tapplytothoseparts–itappliestothewhole.Doesthatmakesense?Isaythatwhenitbeganto

trailoff.

David:Ithinkthere’sapossibleworldinwhichitmakessense.Doesthatmakesense?

Stephen:Ifyou’reRobertStalnaker25itmakessense.

A2:...orifyou’reTedNelson26.Ithinkifyoureallywantaworldinwhicheachparagraphandeachlicenceandeachwhatever,hasitsowncopyrightattachedtoit,andyou’renot…

Stillifyoutakeabunchofthingsandputthemtogethertoproducesomethingnew,thatnewthingthatyouproducedisathing.Andnowit’sgoingtobecopyrightedandyou’regoingtohavetotalkabout

howyouwanttolicenseit,becausethat’sjustthewayitworks.Butthatdoesn’tmeanthatthelicenceforthewholethinghas…youcansayyouknowthisparticularsequenceofthings,thisorganisation,this

wayofdoingthingshasacertainlicence.Butifyoulookdowninsideit,theindividualpartsmayhavevaryinglicencesorsomethinglikethat.Ifyoureally,ifyoudidn’twanttocombinethemintoawhole.

Stephen:Yeah,Isee,it’swhenwetreatthesedigitalresourcesasthoughtheywerephysicalthingsthatyougetintotrouble.Whenyoutrytogatheritalltogether,andproducethispackagethatyou’llputon

theshelf,that’swhenyougetintotroubleforlicences.Butyouknow,ifwejustliveinaconnectedworld,thenyoucanassembleyourresourcethewayGeorgeandIassembledourclass–wedidn’tmoveprettymuchanydigitalresourceanywhere,wejustlinkedtothem.Andsowhenyoujustlinktothem,

theresourcesitswhereitsits,ithasthelicencethatithas,andtheonlylicencethatwehaveappliestothesetoflinks,ifyouwill.Nowit’swhenwetrytogatherthingsinandtreatitasthoughitwereaprintresourceandhastobepackagedandboundandshippedoutincontainersthatwegetintolicence

problems.

David:I’llagreewiththat,butno,I’llagreewiththatand…

25http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stalnaker26http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

Stephen:Iseeyou’vebeenthroughtheprogramme.

David:Thankyou.AndIthinktherearetimeswhenitisvaluabletopullthingstogetherandgatherthemtogetherandpresenttheminaunifiedpackage.Soincaseswhenthat’strue,thenyouhavetodealwith

licencecompatibilityissues.

Incaseswhereit’snot,youjustlinktoeverything,andifthenavigationisdifferentandthecolourisdifferentandthisishere,butit’sontherighthandsideonthispageandthelefthandside…Ifalearnerhasenoughsparecyclestonavigateallthedifferentnavigationschemesandlookforthingsherewhen

theywerethereonthelastpageandwhatever,thenyou’regreat.ButIthinkifyou’reinasituationwheresomuchisbeingdemandedcognitivelyofthestudentalready,thatalackofuniformityintheinterfacemakesthemthinkenoughthatitdistractsmeaningfullyfromwhatthey’retryingtolearn,then

Ithinkyoudohavetodealwithpullingthingstogether,puttingtheminaunifiedpackage,unifyingthenavigationprocessandtryingtosimplifythatforthem.

I’mnotsayingthatyoualwayshavetodothis,butI’msayingthattherearesomecaseswhereyou’llwantto.Andinthosecases,youwillhavetodealwithlicencecompatibilityissues.Buttheopencourses

thatI’vedone,I’vedoneexactlythesamewayyouhave–I’veleftthingswheretheyare,theyhavethelicencestheyhave,Iproduceasetoflinkswithannotations.Lookforthiswhenyouread,you’regoingtoanswerthesequestionswhenyou’redone.Thathasalicenceofitsownanditdoesn’toweanything

tothatcontentthat’sstillouttherelicensedthewaythatit’slicensed.Soitcanbeavoided,butitprobablycan’talwaysbeavoidedwell.

Stephen:I’mnotsuchabelieverinthethesisthat“thereisalimitedcognitiveloadthatthestudentcanhandlesowehavetogetridofalltheextraneousstuffandfocusrightinonthecontent.”

David:Soyoubelieveinunlimitedcognitivecapacity?

Stephen:No,Idon’tbelievethatfocussinginonthecontentsomehowlowersthecognitiveload.Ithinkthatthewholeactofgettingtothecontent,thedifferentways,ispartofthelearning.Rememberweweretalkingearlieraboutwhatisittoknowasubject?Andweweretalkingabout,andyouactuallysaid

it,youhavetoknowwhatthewordsmean,youhavetoknowhowthey’reused?Allofthatisthedifferentkindsofnavigation,right.Yougoseetheseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironment,ifyouwill.Thatislearningaboutthedomain,theseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironmentistheseresources

presentedastheywouldbefoundbypractitionersinthedomain.Thatispartofthelearning.

David:It’spartofthelearning,butIwouldsayit’sconstructirrelevant.Ifyou’retryingtolearnmathandalso…sooneofthethingsIhateisyougetthesewordproblemsinmathandifyoudon’treadEnglishverywell,thennowyou’remarkeddownonmath.AndyourabilitytoreadEnglishreallyisconstruct‐

irrelevant,ifwhatIwanttounderstandishowgreatamasteryofmathyouhave.SonowifpartofmysuccessinbeingabletonavigatethewebcomesintomygradefortrigormygradeforUShistory,myabilitytonavigatethewebreallyisnotrelevanttomymasteryofhistory.

Stephen:You’vejustsketchedaworldviewinwhichyouhaveagradefortrigoragradeforworldhistory.Withsomeveryfewexceptions,nobodygoesouttolearntrigjusttolearntrig,right.I’vestarted

itfourtimes,and…Thatwasajoke.

David:Youfinallygotitrightfourtimes.

Stephen:Ifinallypassedit.No,actuallyIpasseditallfourtimes.ActuallyIpasseditthefirstthreetimesandthefourthtimeIstudieditwasonmyownandthat’swhenIunderstoodit.Soit’sactuallyagoodstory,butit’sirrelevanttothiscurrentcontext.

But,Imean,againwhatisanunderstandingofmath?Isitthisunderstandingofthispureformalismina

context‐freedomain?Independentofwordproblemsorlanguageorusageoranythinglikethat?Maybethereisasensetobemadeofapersonwhoselatercareerinlifeisgoingtobethatofapuremathematician,inwhichthatmightconstituteunderstandingofmath.Butthey’dstillhavetobeableto

communicatewithothermathematicians.Ormaybenot,they’remathematicians.ButyouknowwhatImean.

Fortherestofus,understandingmathjustisbeingabletodothewordproblems.Becausethewordproblemsareallthereisofmathtous.Andwithoutthewordproblems,therestofitiscompletely

superfluous.Youwouldn’tcare,youdon’tcareabouttherelationbetweenxandybeingthirtymilesanhourandfortymilesanhour,unlessthere’stwotrainsheadedstraighttowardseachother.That’swhenitreallymatters.YouseewhatImean?

Sowe’vetakenthesedomainsofknowledgeandslicedthemanddicedtheminwaysthatarevery

advantageoustothepublishingindustry,butnotadvantageoustoourcomprehendingwhatitisthatweneedtocomprehend.Wedon’tneedtoknowtrigonometryproperly‐so‐called,weneedtopreventtrainsfromcrashingintoeachother.Wedon’tneedtoknowgeometry,weneedtoknowhowmuch

mulchtoputontopofourgarden.Thosearethethingsthatweneed.

Andthecontexthere,youknow,thecontextofthelearning,inmymind,oughttobeyouknow,thelearningofhowtomanagetrains,orthelearningofhowtomanageagarden.Andthemathisjust

incidentaltothat.Thetakingofthismathematicalcontentandarrangingitintotheselargepredefined,almostindivisiblestructuresactuallymakesithardertogoaboutdoingthethingsthatwewanttodo.“Ijustwanttorunagarden.”“Wellyouhavetotakefortyhourcourseinmath.”Itmakesnosense.

Andtogobackeventothediscussionthatwehadearlier,we’regoingtotakethiscourse,thefortyhour

courseinmath,ninetypercentofwhichwewillneveruse,atleastnotinthenexttenyears.Andwhichthereforewillbecompletelyforgotten,andthenwe’regoingtocallthatefficient.Soit’snotmakingsense.It’snotefficient.Toalargedegreeit’snotlearning.

David:Sodoyouthinkaboutliberalartseducationasbeingefficientorlearning?Becauseitseemsto

methathere’ssomethingverybroadrangingwhichmayormaynothaveanydirectapplicabilitytoyourlife,butIwouldexpectyouwouldbeaproponentforverybroadranging,lotofphilosophyandliteratureandsomethingelse.

Stephen:Well,let’stakeWarandPeace.WarandPeaceisprettyrelevanthere.I’mreadingWarandPeace.I’mnotreadingWarandPeacetorememberit,whichisagoodthing.I’mreadingWarandPeace

becauseIwanttoimmersemyselfinthisexperience.Sotheimmersingmyselfinthisexperience,thatisthethingIvalue.That’stheliberalartsthingthatIvalue.Andthe“content”thatIgetoutofWarandPeace,isn’tsomethingthat’sgoingtobecontainedinWarandPeace.It’sgoingtobewhatbecomesof

meafterIreadWarandPeace.Soyouknow,wetalkaboutefficiency,saywell“IsWarandPeacethemostefficientwaytogetto,well…”

David:Whateveritis,theanswer’sno.

Stephen:Wellwhat…

David:Athousandpages.

Stephen:Wellnoteventhat.Thequestiondoesn’tevenmakesense.BecauseIdon’tknowwhattheresultsoftheexperiencewillbe.Itdoesn’tmakesensetotalkofhavingefficientexperiences.Isan

experienceofcampinginthemountainsmoreefficientthantheexperienceofwalkingthroughaforest?Makesnosense.Aretheyeducational?Unquestionably.Whyaretheyeducational?Notbecauseweremembersomecontent,althoughthatmightbeanepiphenomenonofthis,butbecauseofwhatwe

becomeforhavingdoneso.

David:SodidIbecomesomethingusefulfortakingastructuralequationmodelinclass,eventhoughnowIdon’trememberthespecificsofit?

Stephen:Didyoubecomesomethingthatyouwantedto?

David:Ithinkso.

Stephen:Youthinkso.Imean,Idon’tevenknowwhatyoubecameasaresultofthat.

David:This.

Stephen:This.Well…

David:Yeah,wellmaybeyoubetternotcomment.

Stephen:Iwasjustabouttosay,rightsomethingthatisnotme,okay.

David:CanIcomeroundtomyquestionbecausewe’rerunningoutoftime.

Stephen:Yeah,absolutely.

David:Soasyouknow,Iknowyouknow,becauseyoucoveredit,astudentofmineatUtahStatejust

didthisstudyoftheratesofreuseofopeneducationalresourcesintheConnexionsrepository27.Andforthoseofyouwhohaven’treadthedissertation,whathefoundisthatthere’sbasicallynoreuse.By

27http://www.archive.org/details/PatternsOfLearningObjectReuseInTheConnexionsRepository

reuseImean,Ishouldsaythere’sno,norevision,noremixing,notranslation,noenactingoftherightsgrantedbytheopenlicencebypeoplewhocometovisittheseresourcesbasically.Soinacollectionof

fifty‐fivehundredsomemodules,Ithinkhefoundtenthathadbeenchangedinanywayfivetimesormore.Andthisisoneofthebetterestablished,oldercollectionsofmaterial.

Andinadditiontohavingthematerialonthesite,thesitealsohasallthetoolsyouneedtomakechangesanddothings,andittracksitallautomatically.Andwethought“Ifwe’reevergoingtofindit

anywhere,thissiteiskindof,insomewaysthebestcasescenario,ofgoingtolookforhowmuchreuseisreallyhappening.”SowhenIstartedquotingnumbersinthesubonepercentrange,Ihadanotverybriefpanicattack.AndIsaid“Basicallyyestherearehalfamillionpeopleeverymonththatcometothis

site,whatever.Andtheyuseandreusethismaterialjustexactlythewaytheyfindit,whichisinnowayanydifferentfromthewayinwhichtheyinteractwithCNN.com,ortheBBC’swebpage.Theycome,it’sfree,theyreadit,theygoaway.”

WegotoallthisextratroubletoscrubIPanddoallthesethings,sothatwecanapplyanopenlicence,

andthenitturnsoutthatbasicallynooneactuallyenactsanyoftherightsthatwegavethembyallthishugeadditionaleffort.TheyuseMITopencourseware,theyuseConnexons,theyusecoursewarethesamewaythattheyuseCNN.comwhichistheycome,it’sfree,itdoesn’tcostanything.Theyreadit,it

mightbefullycopyright,itmightbeopen,theydon’tknow–theyusetheminthesameway,theyjustreaditandtheygoaway.SoIaskedmyselfifthisisthebestcasescenario,isitevenworthit?Isallthetroubleofopenlylicensingeducationalmaterialsworthit?Becauseitseemstomethatwegotoahuge

amountoftroubleandeffortandthenbasicallynoonedoesanythingwithit.

Nowyoucan,thereareacoupleofthingsyoucanargue.(Aroshbiss?)willarguewithmethathalfapercentisahugenumber.Whichisonewayoflookingatit.Anotherwayoflookingatitisevenifonlyone

persondoesit,thenthat’sincrediblyvaluable,becausetheycouldneverhavedoneitbefore.ButIreallyspentaperiodoftime…IthinkI’mkindofoverthecrisisoffaithstageofit.AndnowI’mjustintothe“howmuchsensedoesthisreallymake?”stageofit.

Stephen:Myinterpretationofthatisthatitisthesystemworkingasitwasdesignedtowork.You’vegot

peopleouttherewhoarebeingtoldthatundernoaccountshouldtheyre‐usethings.Right,sothemeetingupofcontentwhichtheycanuseistheexceptionratherthantheruletoalargedegree.Andit’snotevencontentthattheylike(nothingpersonaloranythinglikethat).ButImean,they’remuch

moreinterested,asamI,inmusicandcinemaandtelevisionandbooksthantextonwhatever.Youknow,soit’snotupthereinmylistofthingstobereusing.IfIwasgoingtobere‐writingsomething,I’dbere‐writing,Idon’tknow,WarandPeace,andnotatextbookonstatistics.

So,themainthingis,Ithinkwe’relookingstillatagenerationthathasbroughtupthinkingoflearningas

somethingthattheyreceivepassively,ratherthansomethingthattheyareengagedintheprocessofcreatingforthemselves(Iverydeliberatelydon’tusetheword“constructing”,becauseI’mnotgivingaconstructivistdiscoverylearningtheoryhere).ButIdobelievethatovertime,ifweworktowardthesort

ofeducationalsystemIthinkthatweneedtoworktoward,peoplemoreandmorewillbecomemoreresponsiblefortheirownlearning.Andforthesimplepragmaticreasonthatwecannotafford,asa

society,asaglobalsociety,toprovideitforthem–it’sjusttooexpensive.Wedon’thavetheresourcesontheplanettodoit.

Soanywayofaccomplishingeducationforallisgoingtobepeoplecreatingtheirownlearningfor

themselves.Butwearealongwayfromthat,andwearestilltoalargedegree,anditvariesabitfromsocietytosociety,buttoalargedegree,stillpresentingeducationassomethingthatweprovideforyou.Andyouastherecipientquietlyandpassivelyreceive.Andsothat’showtheytreatopeneducational

resources.Ofcoursetheywould.That’showtheytreatmovies,that’showtheytreattelevisionshows.That’showtheytreat,underpenaltyoflawsuit,music.

Youknow,Imeanweshouldn’texpectanythingelse.Sothere’sachallengeinherentintheentireprojectofopeneducationalresources,notsimplytomakeresourcesopen.Andagain,ifwegotothe

Internetwecanfindtwelvemillionpicturesofducks,fivemillionofwhichareopen.Orwhateverthosenumberswere,I’venomemorywhatsoever.ButyouknowwhatImean?It’snotsomuchthat,asfosteringthisenvironmentwhereit’sokaytocreatenewthingsoutofexistingthings.Justasyouknow,

whenasasocietywewerebecomingliterate,wehadtogothroughastagetoconvincepeopleitwasokaytomakenewcreationsoutofpre‐existingwords.Youknow,eventhenovelisarelativelyrecentinvention.Andthewholeidea‐youknowit’sfunny,novelstillmeanslongishbookandsomethingnew.

There’saninterestingcoincidencethere.I’mnotsurethere’sanysignificancetothatcoincidence,butit’sthere.ButdoyouseewhatI’msaying?

David:Yeah,itsoundstomelikewhatyou’resayingis“Yesit’sworthit.Davidyoujustneedtobepatientforpeople’smindsetandculturetocatchupwiththe,excusemeforsaying,affordancesofopen

educationalresources”.

Stephen:Notjustthat,thatbutalsodon’tbesoconcernedtobuildreallybeautifulcourses.Becauseespeciallynowit’sanawfullotofworkforsomethingthat,asyouquiteproperlypointout,isn’tgoingto

bere‐used.

David:ButtheConnectionsstuffisjustmodulebymodulebymodule.Insomecasesthosemodulesareputintosomethingthattheycallacollection,whichisroughlyanalogoustoatextbook,butthisisreallyaseriesoffifty‐fivehundredmodulesnotcourses.Thesearemuchmorebazaarthancathedral28,and

yetstill…

Stephen:Yeah,wellbut…

David:…nothing.It’skindof…Andtenyears…

Stephen:Butpeoplestill,they…

David:…stillisn’tlongenough.

28http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/

Stephen:…theyhavetodotheirlearninginsidethesecontentenclosureswheretheypaytuitionandtheysitpassivelyandthat’showtheylearn,right.Imean,nowonderthere’snothing.Theonlypeopleat

thismomentwhoaregoingtore‐usethesethingsareuniversityprofessors,andtheyactuallyhaveanincentivenottousethesethings.

David:SoifMITopencoursewarewerefullycopyrighted,butfreelyavailable,youcouldgothere,youcouldsurfit,youcouldreadit,youcoulddoeverything,youjust,itdidn’thaveCreativeCommonson

thebottom,itjustsaid“copyright”onthebottom,whatinthelasttenyears,wouldtheworldhavelost?

Stephen:Well…Pardon?

Dave:SlightlydifferentinChina.

Stephen:BedifferentinChina?

Dave:There’salotoffarrangingconsequencesIthinktothatthataren’tsomuchaboutthereuseof.

David:AlthoughIcantellyou…canIsaythiswhilewe’rerecording?

Stephen:Goforit.

Dave:Icanturnitoff.

David:You’renottheonlyonerecording.Inanearlymeeting,thiswouldbelike2002to2003,wheretwelveorsopeoplewereinaroomtogether,andtalkingaboutopencoursewareandtherewererepresentativesfromdifferentprojects.Thereisarepresentativewhowillremainunnamedfroma

Chinesegroupofpeopleandarepresentativeofopencoursewarethatwillremainunnamed.Asweallwentaroundcomplainingabout“Ohmygoshyouknow,IPandcopyrightclearanceandopenlaw,thatwholepartislikehalfortwo‐thirdsthecostoftheseprojectsthatwedo.”

TheguyfromChinajuststartedlaughingandsaid“Wedon’tcare.”Andweallthought“Ohhe’s

caricaturingyouknow,he’smirroringbacktousourstereotype”,wealllaughedathisjokeandthenhewasn’tjoking.Andifyouthinkthatthecostissomewhereintheneighbourhoodofmaybehalfofan

institutionalproject,thatMITisfourmillionayear,roughly,theongoingcost.You’redroppingtwograndover,twomillionayear,justonIPclearance.Andthenwhatare,whatarepeoplemakingofthistwomilliondollarsthatyearafteryearafteryearyou’reinvesting?They’renotexercisinghardlyanyof

therights.

Stephen:Idon’t…

David:…withtheobviousexceptionofpeoplewhotranslatedirectlyintoanotherlanguage.Whichtomeisnotthemostinterestingkindofrevisionorremixing,it’sjust…

Stephen:Let’sthinkaboutthis,ImeanthisismoneyspentonIPclearance,it’skindoflikeforeignaidmoneythat’sspentinNewYork.Imeanit’slike,it’sbeingsentdirectlytothepeoplewhoneeditthe

least.Imean,whyspendthismoneyonIPclearancetobeginwith?Imean…

David:ThisisthequestionI’masking.

Stephen:Imean,ifIweredesigninganopeneducationalresourcesystem,IwouldnotbetryingtoclearIPfromcommercialcontent.I’dtrashthat–seriously.Youknow,we’vegotawholecommunityof

peoplewhocancreatethings,createcapacityforthatcommunity,inordertocreate.AndforgetaboutclearingIP.Imean,that’sridiculous,it’satotalwasteoftime.

David:Justcreateitfromscratch.

Stephen:Justcreateitfromscratch.DoyouthinkWikipediaspendanytimeclearingIPonstuff?YouknowImean,theyhaveyouknowafterthefact,youknow,ifsomebodyuploadssomething,they’lltake

itdown.Butyouknow,theydon’tpre‐screenalloftheircontent.Theprojectwouldhavebeenimpossible.Itwouldhavecosthundredsofmillionsormore.

David:ItwouldhavebeenNewpedia.29

Stephen:WouldhavebeenNewpediaexactly,youknow.

David:Thatwasajoke.

Stephen:Yeah,butyouknow,againit’sthis“openeducationalresourcesattemptingtoreplicatewhatwastherebefore.”Forgetwhatwastherebefore.Wedon’tneedtoreplicatetheentirepublishing

structure,youknow,wedon’tevenneedWikipediaforthatmatter.EvenWikipediaisabittoomuchliketheexisting“thereisanencyclopaedia,itistherepositoryforobjectiveneutralpointofviewknowledge”.WhichintheendwillbethedeathofWikipedia.Butthat’salsoaseparateissue.Wedon’t

needtoreplicatewhatwastherebefore.Allweneedtodoissay“Wearegoingtocreateopencontent”andthenjustcreateitasacommunity.Butwehavetogetpastthisideathat“thereareexperts,andtheseexpertswillbetheoneswhocreatethecontent,andthenwe’lldisseminateitouttothemasses,

andwewillpaytheexpertsoutofthesefoundationgrantsandallofthat.”

David:Isn’ttheresomethingveryoddaboutamovementwhosegoalisreusablematerial,thatcan’treuseanymaterial,andhastocreateeverythingfromscratch?Isn’tthatweird?

Stephen:Youknowitwouldseemodd,exceptthepeopleweareentrustingtodothisarethepeople

whobenefitleastfromopencontent.Soyouknowit’slikeentrusting,youknow,apropertymanagementcompanytomanageyourfreehousing,right.Whattheyreallywanttodoisgetpeopleintothepaidhousing.Sothey’lldoalittlebitoffree,butreallythebig…Idon’tknow,thatanalogyis

fallingapart.

David:Likemostfreehousingactually.

Stephen:Wellyeah,becauseweuseconstructioncompaniestobuildfreehousing,ratherthanthepeoplewhoaregoingliveinit.Iwouldbetyouifpeoplewhoweregoingto,welllikeHabitatfor

29http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Interview_With_Wiki_Founder_Jimmy_Wales/551‐96644‐643.html

Humanity30,wherepeopleactuallydoparticipateintheconstructionoftheirownhomes,thosehomesaren’tfallingapart.Andthosehomesaren’tabandonedtheminutethey’reuninhabited.

David:Buttheydoneedtomakecode,andtheydoneedtodosomethingsthatrequiresome,forgive

meforsayingit,expertise.

Stephen:Yeah,butthe…

David:Soyoucanusealargearmyofvolunteersandwhatever,butatsomepointyou’vegottohaveacoupleofpeoplewhoknowwhattodo.

Stephen:Butagain,theentireworldisnotmadeupofnovices,right?Thereisahugebodyofexistingexpertiseintheworldnow.Andforthatmattercodeexistsinhousesmostlytoprotectpeoplefrom

commercialhousebuilderswhocutcorners.Youknow,codedoesn’texisttomakeitharderforsomebodytobuildtheirownhouse.Althougharguably,alotofcodefunctionsinexactlythatway.Ifwewereanationwherewebuiltourownhouses,ourentirehousingcodewouldbedifferent,right.And

inspectionsandcodesandallofthatwouldhelppeoplebuildbetter,ratherthanpreventingcrooksfromcheatinghomeowners.

Dave:GentlemenI’msorry,wehavetwocompetingschedules.Oneofthemsays4.30,oneofthemsays4.45,so…

David:Minesays5o’clock.

Stephen:Thereisarequesttoatsomepointtalkaboutaccreditationandweshouldprobablyaddress

that.Somaybe…

David:Okay.SoletmerestatewhatIthinkyou’resaying.Ithinkyou’resayingthatopeneducationissomethinggoodandweoughttokeepdoingit,butwedon’tnecessarilyneedformalinstitutionsinvolved;itshouldbesomethingthat’sdonebylooseknitnetworksofpeopleandformaledshouldstay

overhereandopenedcanbeoverhere.

Stephen:Andalso,tomakethepointevenmorestrongly,formalinstitutionsandactualpublishershavetodatebeenswallowingandabsorbingmostoftheresourcesthatwe’vebeenspendingonopen

educationalresources.Andthisisnotagoodthing.

It’skindoflikewehavethisbigvacuumofcommercialenterprise,suckingallthemoneyawayfromopeneducationalresourcesandprofitingthemselves,andwestilldon’thavetheresourceswewanted.Andhundredsofmillionsofdollarshavebeenspent.Anditdidn’tgotothepeoplewhocouldbe

producingtheseresources;itwenttocommercialpublishers,institutions.Thinkaboutit,ImeanMITgotfundingtodoopencoursework.MIT!Imean…talkaboutinstitutionsthatdon’tneedmoremoney.

David:It’sstunning,whenIfirstwasthinkingaboutdoingopencontent,IsentanemailtoEricRaymondandanemailtoRichardStallmanandIsaid“HeyIhavethisidea.Doyouthinkitwouldbeuseful?Do

30http://www.habitat.org/

youthinkweshoulddoit?”Ericimmediatelysaid“Yes,andyoushouldcallitopenanything.”AndRichardsaid“Yes,youshouldcallitfreeanything.Idon’tcarewhatthesecondwordis–justmakesure

youcallitfree…”ActuallyEricwasn’tnearlysodogmatic.ButRichard’scommenttomewas“Youshoulddoit.Youshouldcallitfreewhatever.Andifyouactuallycareaboutit,youneedtodropoutofyourPhDprogramme,youneedtogetoutofacademia,youneedtodowhatever.Becauseallofthatstuffis

justgoingtogetinyourwayand.Look,wouldLinuxhaveeverhavehappenedifIdidaPhD?”Richardsaystome.“Youneedtoabandonthatwholething,justgetoutofallofitandcome,liveinthewoodsordowhateveritisthatRicharddoes.”AndhetoldmethatifIdidn’tdothat,Iwasn’tamoralperson,

andyouknowtheseotherthings.Sowedon’tspeakmuchanymore.

Stephen:IgotintoanargumentwithhimwhenIwasinBarcelona,andhesaid“AnddoyouknowIhaveanofficeatMIT.”Isawit,it’sacardboardsign.Andpeoplesaythingsanddothings…

David:ButifIcansaythiswithoutmakingitsoundpersonal,thenfromyourperspective,IshouldgetoutofthebusinessofopeneducationaslongasI’mpartofthesystemofformaleducationandhavean

academicappointment.Andanswerthatwithoutconsiderationsofpersonalfeeling.

Stephen:Wellno,Imean,it’stheold,“allleftistsmustbeinpoverty”argument.Ihearthatalot,beingsomeonefromtheleft.

David:Ihearyou’resaying,butyou’resayingformaledjustneedstostayoutofthisbusiness,andI’maformaled,forbetterorforworse.

Stephen:No,whatI’msayingis,inyourroleasformaled,thatisyouknowprofessorofaninstitution,or

theownerofapublishingcompany…

David:Let’sbeclear–employeeofapublishingcompany.

Stephen:Oh,Ithoughtyouownedit.

David:Notanowner.I’mnotoneofthefounders.

Stephen:Allthatstreetcredthatyoubroughtin,youcouldn’tgetownership?

David:No,Ihavealittleownership,butI’mnotafounder.

Stephen:Yeah,butanyhow,inthoseroles,ifyouaredivertingfundingforopeneducationalresourcesto,say,youruniversity…

David:…andawayfrom…

Stephen:…awayfrom…

David:…woulditgotoJoe?

Stephen:Let’ssayJoe.

David:Joe’sgoingtosendaproposaltoNSFortheHewlettFoundation,saying“Icandosomething”.

Stephen:No,ofcoursenot.Theentiremechanismofsendinginproposalscreatesasysteminwhichpeoplewhobecomeexpertatsendinginproposalsgetfunded.Andthattendstobepeoplewhowork

atuniversitiesorpeoplewhoworkatcompanies.

David:Idon’tthinkthatfundingisdiverted.Idon’tthinkthere’sanychanceofJoereceivinganyofthatfunding;Idon’tthinkyoucanargueit’sbeendivertedawayfromhim.Therewasneveranychanceofhimreceivingit.

Stephen:Heneverhadachance.Yeah,therewasnochanceweweregoingtogiveJoedemocracysowe

don’tliveinfascism.

David:Yeah,absolutely.Iwasjustthinkingthatmyself.

Stephen:Yeah,okay.

David:Poorlydonebuteffective.

Stephen:Oursystemofaccreditationinasensemirrorsoursystemofopeneducationalresource,welloursystemofeducation,right?Accreditation,education‐andit’snotsurprisingthattheparallel’sthere,becauseit’sallpartofthesamesystem.Andweworkwithasystemofaccreditationwhichfunctions

verymuchasshorthandforit.YouhaveaBachelorofArts,you’represumedtoknowsuchandsuch.

And,whereamIgoingwiththis?WhereIwanttogoisontheonehand,thecurrentsystemistooclumsy,it’stoocoarselygrained.Ontheotherhand,thecurrentsystemperpetuatesastructureoflearningthatisitselftoocoarse(Idon’twanttosaytooinefficient,havingspentalmostanhourtryingto

undercutthatconcept).ButyouknowwhatImean?

David:Imean,tomeaccreditationisaboutprovingtosomeoneelsewhatyouknow.Butactuallystudieshaveshownratherconsistentlythatyouhaveaverypoorideaofwhatyouactuallyknow.You

don’tactuallyknowwhatyouthinkyouknow.

Stephen:Right.Andthelessyouknow,themoreyouthinkyouknow.

David:Yeah,andviceversa.

Stephen:Viceversa,yeah.Whichexplainsalot.

David:Itseemstome,andIwillgostraighttoit,itseemstomethataccreditationisaboutefficiencyandscale.

Stephen:Wellyeah,itisaboutefficiencyandscale–that’strue.

David:IamIBM,I’mgoingtohirefivethousandpeoplethisyear.I’mgoingtohavetwenty‐fivehundredpeopleapplyforeachposition,andIjustcannotreviewaportfolioofauthenticexperiencesand

argumentsprovidedbyeachoneofthem.Iwantanobjective,supposedly,thirdpartytomakesome

representationtomeontheirbehalfthattheydohavethesetofskillsthatIneedinthisposition.Andifthere’ssomebodythat’swillingtoplaythatrole,nowIcanhavealotmorepeopleapplyformyjob,I

canmakethehiringprocessalotmoreefficient,Icanscaleit.

Andtheuniversity’sroleasanaccreditorissimplythat.Becauseifyou’rejustgettingadegreesoyoucansay“Yay,Ihaveadegree”,youwouldn’tpaythemoney.You’djustreadthestuff,you’ddowhatever.Thevastmajorityofpeoplewantthedegreeasthatobjective,thirdpartyrepresentationto

anemployer.Sothefutureofaccreditationquestionformeis“Whoelseandinwhatotherwaycanyoufillthissupposedlyobjectiveroleofthirdpartyrepresentationtoanemployer?”Ithinkthat’sthewholegamerightthere,asfarasaccreditationgoes.

Stephen:Wellyes.ShallIsay“and”or“but”?

David:Say“and”.

Stephen:Andwhatwealsogotforourmoneywasasystemthatpre‐screensoutforusallthepoor

peopleandalltheforeigners.

David:Wellnottheforeigners.

Stephen:Yeah,becauseifyoudon’thaveaUSdegree,IBMwon’thireyou.Unless…

David:ThereareforeignerswithUSdegrees.

Stephen:Yeah,butthosearetherichforeigners.Andbythetimethey’vecomethrough,they’realmostnotforeignersanymore.

David:WellI’mnotgoingtogotherewithyou.

Stephen:But…

David:You’reonyourownwiththat.

Stephen:ButImeanifitwas,iftheintentoftheuniversitysystemwassimply…andtheaccreditation

wassimplytodeterminewhohasandwhohasn’ttheknowledge,therewouldn’tbetherequirementofpayingwhatwasit?Ahundredandeighty‐ninethousand?

David:…andeighty‐ninethousandforMIT.

Stephen:Imeanbecauseweknowthatitdoesn’tcostthattodeterminewhetherornotsomebodycanprogrammeacomputer,evencreatively.And,buttheguysatIBMaregoingtolookatthatMITdegree

andthey’regoingtosay“Screenhimin.”

No,notbecausetheyhaveknowledge,becausetheMITdegreeisneithernecessarynorsufficienttoestablishthatthepersonhastheknowledgethatyouneed.Notnecessaryobviouslybecauseyoucouldhavetheknowledgeelsewhere.Andnotsufficient,becausetheknowledgethatMITtaughtyoumight

notbetheknowledgethatyouneedonthejob–theremightbeamismatch.Youdon’tknowbecauseyouhaven’tlookedatit.

David:Oryoumighthavecheatedyourwaythroughclassorthere’sall…

Stephen:Yeah.Whatyouarebuyingwith,whenyouhirethepersonwiththeMITdegree,isthat

person’ssocialstanding,thatperson’sconnectionsinthecommunity,thatperson’sdemonstratedcapacitytoraiseahundredandeighty‐somethousanddollars,tobuysomethingthathasnoinherentvalue.

David:Orthebravadotogointotwohundredthousanddollarsindebtoversomethingthathas…

Stephen:Wellyouhavetohavemorethanbravadotogettwohundredthousanddollarsindebt.You

havetohaveahouse.

David:Maybethisyearyoudo.Youdidn’thavetolastyear.

Stephen:Yeah.No,wellthatmayhavebeentrueintheStates,butyouknowintherestoftheworldyouactuallyhadtohavesomeassetsbeforeyouwenttwohundredthousanddollarsintodebt.IntheUnitedStatesapromissorynoteandadog,thatwouldhavedoneit.Andthedogwasoptional.

David:Theinterestingquestiontomeisif,IthinkWesternGovernorsisaveryinterestingmodelofnext

generationaccreditation,becauseintheUSrightnowit’srealpopularforcompaniestotrytobundlephone,TVandInternetallinapackageandbuythewholepackage,andwhatever.Whichinsomewaysistheuniversitymodel–“Wecanprovidethecontent,weprovidethetutor,weprovidethe

assessment,it’sallinabundle.”Andyoueithereatthewholething,oryoudon’tgetanyofit.Whereas,whenItalkedaboutthedisaggregationofhighered,I’mtalkingaboutthoseindividualpiecespullingoffintodistinctunits.

Stephen:Sure.

David:WesternGovernorsdoesn’tofferanycourses.Theyprovidesomekindofadvising…it’snotcontenttutoring,butlike,“thesearethethingsyouhavetodoifyouwanttogetthisdegree”kindofleveladvising.Andtheyreallyarejusttheaccreditationpiece,they’renotthecourses,they’renotthe

otherthings.Anditseemstomelikethenextstepinthis,howthisunfoldsispeoplepulling…Icanimaginepeoplethatoffercourseswithnoaccreditation.Justaseasilyasyoucanimagineauniversitythatoffersaccreditationwithnocourses.

Stephen:I’vedoneit.

David:Alotoffacultieshavedoneitactually.

Stephen:Imean,eventheConnectivismcourse,forthenon‐signeduppeople,isacoursewithout

accreditation.Thisraisesthequestion‐becauseaccreditationisstillmonopolyeconomics‐whetherWesternGovernorsUniversitywillgivecredittoanyparticularstudentwhosatisfiesthecriteria.ButI

can’tofferacourse,orno,moreaccurately,Ican’tofferacredentialthatcanbeofferedthroughWesternGovernorsUniversity.Doesthatmakesense?

David:Yeah.

Stephen:SoIcan’toffermyowncredentials.

David:ThroughWesternGovernors.Youcanofferthemon…

Dave:Ahem,summaryremarks?(Voicestalkingtogether)

Stephen:I’mnotsurethatthat’slegal.

Dave:Iknow.It’salmostlikeI’mthemoderator.

Stephen:Imean,(laughter)thereexiststothisdaynonetheless,governmentsanctionedmonopolieson

credentials.Icannotofferauniversitydegree.I’dliketo.Itwouldbeagoodsourceofrevenue.Icouldprobablyretireoffoftenstudents,especiallyatMITrates.AndmaybeIcouldevenfindpeopletopaythat,butI’dprobablyhavetowork.ButinfactIcan’t.Ithinkwithinourlifetimesthatwillchange.Ithink

thatwithinourlifetimesthegovernmentsanctionedmonopolyonuniversitycredentialswillbelifted.AndinterestinglyIthinkitwillbeliftednotbecauseit’sunfair,notbecauseitkeepsoutthepoororanythinglikethat,butasawayforgovernmentsnolongertohavetopaytofundtheuniversitysystem,

whichtheywon’tbeabletodo.

David:Wellthey’regoingtonamethemderegulationoranti‐competitiveness...

Stephen:Wellthat’s,yeah,everythingispassedinthenameofderegulation.Butwhatitusuallymeansismoremonopoly.Butreally,thereasonwhythey’lldoitistheydon’twanttopayfortheuniversitysystemanymore.BecausewhatisitthatyoubuywhenyougotoMIT?It’snotthelearning,it’snotthe

instruction,it’snoteventakingatestandhavingitmarked.It’sthebuddy‐buddynetwork.Andpeopledon’twanttopayforthebuddy‐buddynetwork.

I’vesaidsometimessomethingslike,thatI’vewritteninthepast“governmentsaren’tgoingtowantto

payforsocialclubsforrichpeopleanymore.”AndIthink,especiallyasfinancesgettighter,that’sgoingtobecomemoretrue.Andwe’regoingtoseethemonopolyoncredentialinglifted.That’swhenyou’regoingtostartseeingyourreuse.That’swhenyou’regoingtostartseeingtheseopeneducational

resourcesactuallymeansomething.

David:ButIthink,soIagreewiththat,but…

Stephen:Not“and”?

David:Not“and”.Iagreewiththelastpartyousaid.IthinksocialclubsforrichpeopleareYaleandHarvardandStanfordandMITandtheseplacesthatthegovernmentgivesthemnomoney.They’renotpubliclyfunded,they’reprivate,oftenendowment.IfyoucometoUtahStateUniversity,whereit’s,well

usedtobemajority…

Stephen:Ithinkit’squaintyouthinkMITandHarvardandallthatgetnogovernmentmoney,butwe’llleavethataside.

David:YouunderstandwhereI’mcomingfromthough?

Stephen:Yeah.ButIstillthinkit’saquaintbelief.It’slikesayingBoeingdoesn’tgetgovernmentmoney.

David:No,no,no,that’sunderstood.ButyoucomparetoUtahState,orArizonaStateorsomething

else,whereit’sprimarilypubliclyfunded.Andit’snotrichkidsgoingtoschoolthere.NotlikeitisatMIT,Yaleand…

Stephen:Butit’snotpoorpeopleeither.

David:…theseotherplaces.You’dbesurprised.

Stephen:It’sUSpoor.Notworldpoor.

David:ButtheschoolsareintheUS,why…

Stephen:Yeah,butthereisn’taUtahStateinJohannesburg.

David:No.

Stephen:Andprobablyneverwillbe.

David:Probablynot.

Stephen:TheremaybeanotherMITorHarvardetcwhichwillsuckasmuchgovernmentmoneyasitcan,but…

David:Didyouwantsomekindofsummaryremark?

Dave:Itriedto,Isaidsummaryremarksandyoucalledmerude.

David:Iwasonlykidding.

Dave:Youhurtmyfeelings.

Stephen:Sowhatwe’veestablishedisDavid’sanutterfailureas…No,I’mjustkidding.

Dave:...anunusualpunishment.

Stephen:Okay,actuallyyeah,wedoneedtowrapup,andfirstofallIcan’tbelieveyou’reallstillintheroom.

David:Ican’teither.It’satestamenttotheenduranceofthehumanspiritthatyou’reallstillhere.

AudienceMember:Weheardtherewasaraffle.

(laughter)

Davvid:Mustbepresenttowin,exactly.DinnerwithStephenactually,datelatertonight,it’swhatwe’rerafflingoff.

Stephen:Wedid,wehavegifts.Sothankyoutothemoderators.

David:Thankyousomuch,wereallyappreciateit.

(applause)