Did Sri Ramakrishna Embrace Christianity and Islam

7/27/2019 Did Sri Ramakrishna Embrace Christianity and Islam

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Did Sri Ramakrishna embrace Christianity and Islam? Koenraad Elst

Posted on August 19, 2013 by IS

The Ramakrishna Missions ambition to outgrow Hinduism and be

universal is a form ofhubris. In Greek religion, hubris, or mans will to be equal to

the gods, is the cardinal sin. In Christianity too, Adam and Eve committed hereditary

sin, not by lust but by hubris: initially innocent creatures, they wanted to be equal

to God, who knows good and evil. In this respect, at least, manyit would be hubris

to assert allreligions agree, and they happen to be right. So, let us stop this bad

habit of making claims about all religions, including those that we know only

hazily or not at all. Dr. Koenraad Elst

The Ramakrishna debate, continued

The debate on the Ramakrishna Missions claim that Ramakrishna, the 19th-century Kali priest,

also practised Christianity and Islam, and that he distanced himself from Hinduism to found a new

universal religion called Ramakrishnaism, has taken the form of some hostile reactions from

sympathizers of the Mission. They may be members or have some other status, I dont know, so we

may just focus on what they have to say.

Ramakrishna Mission is Hindu

One person scolded me for even thinking that the Ramakrishna Mission is non-Hindu. He cites the

Hindu atmosphere and the many Hindu rituals and practices at the Mission centres. I might add the

fact that the Mission only recruits among Hindus. No Christian or Muslim would join this Pagan

outfit. That fact alone refutes the Missions own claim that it has somehow embraced all religions.

TheMission is a typically Hindu group, and even its pompous claim of validating all world religions

is a claim made by many Hindus. When Mahatma Gandhi said: I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim, I am a

Sikh, I am a Christian, Mohammed Ali Jinnah dryly commented: That is a typically Hindu thing to

say.

But I am surprised to hear that the Ramakrishna Mission has not disclaimed Hinduism. Not only

has the organization shouted from the rooftops and on all kinds of public forums that universal

Ramakrishnaism is superior to narrow Hinduism, it has evengone to court to be officially

recognized as a non-Hindu minority.
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Logic

Then there were some who, expectedly, took the opposite position, viz. that the RKM follows its

saint Ramakrishna in embracing non-Hindu religions and their founders. One of these deserves a

closer and more detailed reply. Not that he had said much beyond several lengthy e-mails full of

personal abuse (a poor advertisement for the effects of being a Ramakrishnaite). He belonged to a

type I have become sadly familiar with on the internet: born Hindus who muster endless

argumentation, often cleverly twisting issues and deploying a sophisticated discourse, all in order

to defend a case that is downright silly; and that is, moreover, harmful to Hinduism.

For instance, Ive had to face endless argumentations in favour of the belief tha tJesus lived and

died in India. This belief stems from a book (1887) by the Russian aristocrat Nicolas Notovich, whoclaimed to have found notes about Jesus stay in India in a monastery in the Himalaya. This

manuscript was never found and the monasterys abbot denied ever having had or seen such a

text. The contents of the text which Notovich claimed to have seen was also very suspect by its

contents: the themes of Jesus alleged controversies with Brahmins are typical for the late-colonial

age, not at all for the 1st century. Although the polemic about it involved such worthies as Max

Muller and yielded no proof at all, and although Notovich finally admitted to having made it all up,

in 1899Mirza Ghulam Ahmed(founder of the hereticAhmadiyyasect of Islam) used the story to

bolster his claim that prophets could just as well be native to India rather than to the Middle East,

so that he could be a legitimate prophet too. And even now, the story has numerous defenders

among Hindus. Passionate believers, sometimes even clever and argumentative believers, in a

story that is patently false.In the present case too, we have a learned display of rhetoric in the service of an illusion. Of

course, he doesnt try to prove his claim. Either this claim has not been proven, as we maintain, or

it has been proven. In that case, it would be well worth the extra trouble to spell out this proof

clearly, once and for all. But alas, this proof was not forthcoming. To be sure, this proof is not that

according to a second person, Ramakrishna had had a vision, then according to a third person
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years later, this vision was perhaps of Mohammed, and

according to a fourth person, later again, it is dead certain that he saw Mohammed. For the

founding moment of a religion, Ramakrishnaism, one is entitled to expect proof of higher quality

than testimony (?) at several removes.

Even if this very flaky and very suspect sequence were to convey the truth, such a vision would

in no way be what the RKM now claims, viz. the practice of Islam/Christianity. As a Muslim

commented, you cannot take a holiday and be a Muslim for a while, then revert to goddess-

worshipping. Neither Christianity nor Islam consist in having a vision of the founder.

Nonetheless, this RKM sympathizers reformulation of the challenge to non -Ramakrishaites is

interesting:

The scope of my discussion is quite limited and is focused on only one thing: Ramakrishna

believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ and he did practice some discipline of Christianity on the

results of which his such belief was based. The same can be said of his feeling for some discipline

of Islamthat he practiced it and derived divine/spiritual satisfaction from it. I think it is for

Koenraad Elst to spell out his clear position on this observation once and for all.

As a matter of walking the extra mile, I will spell out my position. However, let it be understood that

I am under no obligation to explain anything or give proof for anything, as I am not putting forward

any claim. I am merely skeptical of a claim made by the RKM and this fellow. Because it is he who

has put forward a claim, it is up to him to prove his point. Even if nobody comes forward to offer

any kind of counter-proof or refutation, the mere fact that the claim is put forward, does not annul

its need for proof. As long as the claim is not proven, it was right for sterling Hindus like Ram

Swarupand Shiva Prasad Ray to express scepticism of it. The burden of proof is for 100% on the

maker of this challenge.

Belief in Jesus
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Now, my position. If Ramakrishna had found that his own Hinduism was insufficient, if he had

founded a new religion which the RKM calls Ramakrishnaism, if Ramakrishna had found

Christianity and Islam to be part of this new religion, and if he had personally verified the truth

of these religions by means of visions, then this would be such a momentous revolution that he

would have spent the rest of his days discussing and elaborating it. Instead, absolute silence, and

[the continued worship of] Kali. So, this already pleads against the RKMs claim. Now that we are discussing this, it strikes me that in the 24 years that I have followed this debate, I

have not seen the RKM people come up with an actual quote from the master in which he claims

Jesus divinity. Surely, such belief would have been big news to his Hindu and non -Christian

followers. Our critic too has eloquently beaten around the bush in several replies, but he has

spurned the occasion to present to us the only thing that would finish this debate, viz. proof (as

opposed to mere claims) that RK worshipped Jesus as a divine being. The best proof would be a

statement to this effect by Ramakrishna himself, but this time too it is not forthcoming.

But to really evaluate Ramakrishnas beliefs about Jesus, it would be useful (from a scholarly

viewpoint, even necessary) to get the facts straight about Jesus himself. I have not brought Jesus

into this discussion, it is the RKM that insists Ramakrishna had a vision of Jesus and believed in

Jesus divinity. So, lets discuss Jesus. But let me warn you: Hindus by their upbringing may knoweverything aboutpujaor other Hindu things, but their knowledge of Jesus tends to be very hazy. I,

having gone through the whole Catholic education system and moreover having made a

purposefulstudy of the character Jesus, know more about this subject than the RKM sympathizer

will ever know in his lifetime. I have studied Jesus, he has not. That is not some colonial utterance,

in fact two Hindus sceptical of the RKM claims set me on this path, but it is simply a fact that

someone who has assimilated the scholarly findings on Jesus knows the subject better than

religious types who have only interiorized some missionary sermons calculated to fool a gullible

audience. Conversely, Hindus who have not made a specific study of comparative religion and

especially of Christianity are ill-equipped to pontificate about Jesus.

So, what I know about Jesus, is that he was no more divine than you or me. He was a wandering

healer, with his ears open for the wisdom going around, which he relayed in his own logia,sermons with parables, a few of them goodbut still revered by the people mostly because of his

reputation as a healer. To be sure, his friends and relatives who knew him, saw through his act,

which is why he performed no miracles in his home town. Elsewhere, he could often pull it off,

but still he was less powerful than proper medicine. Thus, he healed someone from epilepsy

(ghost-possession), making him rise after his epileptic seizurebut such fits always subside and

end in a return to normalcy. And in one case, the Gospel says in so many words that the disease

later reappeared. Nothing scandalous, but nothing divine either, about false beliefs in healing

powers.
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Jesus had a rather big idea about himself, just like Mohammed

and some other religious leaders. Thus, he believed that he was theMessiah. He repeatedly made

the prediction that he himself would return within the lifetime of some in his audience. Today weare two thousand years and dozens of generations down the line, yet Jesus has not come back.

Now, wrong predictions are human, in fact they are ten a penny.Jehovahs Witnessesput their foot

between your front door to predict the end of the world, butit didnt come in 1914, nor in 1975.

What makes Jesus wrong prediction an even worse failure is that, while the Witnesses make a

prediction about someone else, Jesus did so about himself. Unlike other diviners, Jesus merely

had to look in his own agenda to see when he was scheduled to return, and still he failed! So,

nothing divine about wrong predictions.

But at least Jesus overcame death by his resurrection? This is the core of the Christian belief

system. Now, the difference between the living and the dead is that you can run into the living, not

the dead. But, like the dead, Jesus is beyond meeting. People have reported seeing Jesus in

visions, but no one has met him in person. So his condition is the same as that of other mortals.The wages oforiginal sinare mortality and child-bearing in pain, and it would be somewhat divine if

Jesus had overcome mortality to live endlessly and still be among us. But no, hes gone. The New

Testament writers have spirited him away through the trick of the Ascension: though somewhat

spectacular, he did the same thing as the rest of us, mortals: he went to heaven. So, nothing

particularly divine about mortality.

I will of course not go through the numerous findings of Bible scholarship, about which so many

books are available. But for now, I have said enough to underpin the conclusion: Jesus was not

divine. If Ramakrishna was a Muslim, as the RKM claims, then he was al ready convinced of Jesus

non-divine status, which is a basicbelief of Islam(and in that respect, Islam is more rational than

the personality cult which is Christianity). If, however, as our RKM sympathizer claims,

Ramakrishna believed in the divinity of Christ, then he was badly informed, not to say that he wasmistaken.

In fact, this sympathizer wants you to venerate a silly Ramakrishna who believed the sop stories of

the missionaries, to the point of self-hypnotizing and seeing a vision of Jesus. By contrast, I (or

rather Ram Swarup and Shiva Prasad Ray) give you a Ramakrishna who was discerning enough to

keep the missionaries at a distance. He was not a Christian nor a Ramakrishnaist, but simply a

Hindu, worshipping Krishna and Hanuman and most of all Kali. You too can live a happy, healthy,

holy life while staying a Hindu and ignoring Jesus.
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Being a Christian

The second claim is that Ramakrishna practised a Christian discipline, and that as a result, he

found that Christianity is equally true and yields the same results that he had already reached

through his Hindu sadhana. Now, being a Christian or being a Muslim has a precise definition,

which Ramakrishna did not fulfil. He was not recognized as one of theirs by any known mullah or

padre. The missionaries sent bulletins home in which they reported the conversions they wrought;

surely they would not have neglected reporting thechristianizationof a leading Hindu saint? And

the RKM has had more than a century to get and show the document that proved their case, viz.

that Ramakrishna turned his back on narrow Hinduism.

Even in the different sects of Hinduism, you only become a member by going through a formal

ceremony, you are given a yajnopavi t(sacred thread) or you getdiksha(initiation)

orshakt ipat(transmission of energy). Ramakrishna never went through the formal ceremonies

making him a Christian or a Muslim. He was notcircumcisedand never uttered theIslamic creed.

He was not baptised and never uttered theChristian creed. No matter what vision he had, it did not

make him either Christian or Muslim.

Further, there is no such thing as practising Christianity or Islam. Either you are in or you are

out. Imitating the behaviour of a Muslim/Christian all while remaining a Pagan does not make you a

Muslim/Christian. In fact, we would like to know what these practices were. Our RKM sympathizer

has repeatedly spurned the occasion to spell this out. Did he observeRamadan, or did he

preferLent? Did this vegetarian offer sheep sacrifice, as is prescribed for Muslims? Did he eat fish

on Friday, as Christians do? Did he condemn caste, which is an intrinsic attitude of Christianity, at

least according to contemporary missionaries? And again, was hebaptised? Which Christian

worthy accepted him as a Christian? We would like some straight answers to these questions.

Not that they would make any tangible difference. Ramakrishna may have been pure gold, but even

his acceptance of the quintessential Christian belief in Jesus divinity would not make Jesus

divine; at least not more than you and me. If, after all these years, the RKM were at last to prove

that Ramakrishna did worship Jesus, we would have to conclude that he was mistakensurely not

the conclusion which the RKM would like us to draw. Fortunately, there is no indication that he did.

Some further problems with the RKMs claim
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Another problem: a Christian cannot be a Muslim, and a Muslim cannot be a Christian. Leaving

aside Hinduism and Ramakrishnaism, please focus only on Christianity and Islam. How could

Ramakrishna be a Christian while also being a Muslim? No Christian or Muslim authority would

accept his being the one while also being the other. Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God,

both God and man, whileMuslims consider him just a man. Christians believe he was resurrected

while Muslims disbelieve that he even died on the cross. How did Ramakrishna combine thesemutually exclusive beliefs?

Finally, Ramakrishna is known to have died while worshipping Kali. By Christian and Islamic

definition, he was a goddess-worshipper, hence an out-and-out Pagan. If he ever was a Muslim or a

Christian, his dying as a Pagan meant that he was an apostate. If being an ignorant Pagan is bad

enough, being a wilful apostate, who has known but rejected the truth and reverted to the false

belief ofPaganism, is really demonic and a sure ticket to the fires of hell. So, according to the

RKM, Ramakrishna has spent the last century braving the fires of hell. For that is what Islam and

Christianity (which the RKM holds to be true) promise to a Pagan like Ramakrishna.

The RKM professes a syncretism, combining elements from different religions. Ramakrishnaism is

the syncretism par excellence, affirming all religions to be true. As theChurch Fatherswrote,

syncretism is typical of Paganism. The Roman-Hellenistic milieu in which the first Christians had tofunction, was full of syncreticism, with Roman matrons worshippingIsis with the babe Horus(an

inspiration for theimage of Mary holding the babe Jesus), legion soldiers worshipping Persian-

originatedMithras, and imperial politicians worshipping the Syrian-originated Sol Invictus( .

Against this syncretism, they preached religious purity: extra ecclesiam nulla salus, outside the

Church no salvation. They had no problem admitting that Paganism was naturally pluralistic, but

what is the use of choosing between or combining different kinds of falsehood? They as Christians

had something better than pluralism, viz. the truth. And once you have the truth, you are no longer

interested in any other religion. So, from the Christian viewpoint, the RKMs dissatisfaction with

mere Hinduism is an admission that Hinduism doesnt have the truth.

Swami Vivekanandas claim

The best argument in favour of the RKMs claim is a statement apparently made by Swami

Vivekananda:

The next desire that seized upon the soul of this man [Ramakrishna] was to know the truth about

the various religions. Up to that time he had not known any religion but his own. He wanted to

understand what other religions were like. So he sought teachers of other religions. He found a

Mohammedan saint and placed himself under him; he underwent the disciplines prescribed by him,

and to his astonishment found that when faithfully carried out, these devotional methods led him

to the same goal he had already attained. He gathered similar experience from following the true

religion of Jesus the Christ.
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Our RKM sympathizer wants to point [out] to KE that the burden of proof is on him to disprove the

observations of RKs chief disciple (and official spokesman?), as otherwise, by default, they

should be assumed to be true. Would KE care to share his compelling reasons to believe that SV

lied?

Once again, he has got things backwards. It is he who makes a claim, and the burden of proof is

thus for 100% on him. SwamiVivekanandawas not an eye-witness and made this statement, whichI will for now assume to be true (Ram Swarup was a great reader of Swami

VivekanandasComplete Worksand doesnt mention it), many years after the fact. Nothing of the

above loses any of its force by this early version of a claim later made into the official line of the

RKM, but for which any proof is missing.

It is no surprise that somebody ignorant of the rules of logic should use an argument from

authority as his trump card. He plays upon the expected indignation of the Indian-born majority of

the readership if I dare to say that Swami Vivekananda lied.

But in fact, I dont need to put it down as a lie. In the world of religion and the occult, I have rarely

seen anyone who deliberately said something that he knew to be untrue. But I have met or

witnessed or read thousands of people who spread falsehoods which they believed to be true.

Even Swami Vivekananda was just a fallible human beinga statement which may scandalize hisfollowers but which he himself would wholeheartedly accept. The processes which have led the

RKM to believe and propagate the falsehood about Ramakrishnas visions, may have taken him in,

too. Or he may simply mean that Ramakrishna had that commendable Hindu attitude of curiosity

and respect for whatever other religions draw his attention. At any rate, while we dont know which

processes were at work in Vivekanandas case, we have his naked statement and this, at least, we

can evaluate. And we find it, if taken literally, to be simply false.

Liberation, the goal of theUpanishadic seersand of most Hindu schools since, is not the goal of

Christianity. No Christian ever claimed to have achieved it, nor was he claimed by other Christians

to have done so. The case applies even more bluntly to Islam: the goal of the five pillars of Islamis

simply to obey Gods commandments as given in the Quran, not any Liberation. The goal of a

Hindusadhanawill not be achieved by a Muslim or a Christian sadhana, and vice versa. Ifsomeone said that a Christian discipline led him to the same goal he had already attained, he

was most certainly wrong. However, it is possible that the state of consciousness which

Ramakrishna had already attained in his Hindusadhanaremained with him when he practised

whatever thissheikhgave him to do. But would that state still be so easily achieved if he had

practised only these IslamiccqChristian exercises?

Conclusion

Sita Ram Goelonce said that Hindus think they know everything about everything. Thus, while it

is hard enough to study a handful of religions, numerous Hindus routinely make claims about the

equal truth of all religions, as if they had studied them all. In this respect, at least, the RKM

monks are certainly Hindus.The RKMs ambition to outgrow Hinduism and be universal is a form ofhubris. In Greek religion,

hubris, or mans will to be equal to the gods, is the cardinal sin. In Christianity too, Adam and Eve

committed hereditary sin, not by lust (as many superficial people think) but by hubris: initially

innocent creatures, they wanted to be equal to God, who knows good and evil. In this respect, at

least, manyit would be hubris to assert allreligions agree, and they happen to be right. So, let

us stop this bad habit of making claims about all religions, including those that we know only

hazily or not at all. One thing that initially attracted me to the Hindu cause was the humbleness and

simplicity of the ordinary Hindus I met. It would be nice if all megalomaniacs climbed down from

their high horses and rediscovered this simplicity.

Secondly, I find it sad and not spelling anything good, that Hindus who are so laid back about the

enemies of and challenges before Hinduism, get so worked up when their own little sect ischallenged.Arya Samajspokesmen dont have 1% oftheir forebearsconcern with the Christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekanandahttp://cwsv.belurmath.org/http://cwsv.belurmath.org/http://cwsv.belurmath.org/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokshahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokshahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokshahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islamhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islamhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islamhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikhhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikhhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikhhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadit_quaestiohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadit_quaestiohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadit_quaestiohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita_Ram_Goelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita_Ram_Goelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubrishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubrishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubrishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_Samajhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_Samajhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_Samajhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Dayanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Dayanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Dayanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Dayanandahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_Samajhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubrishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita_Ram_Goelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadit_quaestiohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikhhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islamhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokshahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityhttp://cwsv.belurmath.org/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekananda


9/17

and Islamic threats, but they really get into the act when defending against other Hindus their pet

beliefs about Vedic monotheism and non-idolatry. TheISKCONpeople never confront Christianity

or Islam, but they get really nasty against fellow Hindus who are not as Krishna-centred (such as

the pre-Krishna Vedic Rishis) as they themselves are. And here too, the RKM is alarmed when

some Hindus disbelieve its pet doctrine of Ramakrishnas visions of Jesus and Mohammed. It

would be good if they shed this obsession with their sectarian unique selling proposition andreturn to a broader consciousness, one that would be recognizable to all Hindus.

Hinduism existed before Jesus and Mohammed. It was good enough for the Vedic seers and non-

Vedic sadhus, and it didnt need those two. I think Hinduism will only survive if it forgets about this

false incarnation and this false prophet. The RKM ultimately has no choice but to admit that for the

past so many decades, it has been spreading an erroneous and harmful belief. It should announce

out loud that all struggles over its exact identity are over, because it owns up to its natural Hindu

identity. Indeed,it should rediscover and second its founder, Swami Vivekanada, who declared:

Say with pride, we are Hindus!

Dr. Koenraad Elst is a Belgian wri ter and oriental is t (wi thout ins t i tut ional aff i l iat ion). He was an

edi tor of the New Right Flemish n at ional is t journalTeksten: Kommentaren en Studies from 1992 to

1995, focusing on cri t ic ism of Is lam. He has authored f i f teen Engl ish language books on top icsrelated to Indian pol i t ics and com mun al ism, and is one of the few western wri ters (along with

Franois Gautier) to actively defend th e Hindutv a ideology .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCONhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCONhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCONhttp://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5344http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5344http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5344http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5344http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCON


10/17

The Secretarys

let ter is dis ingenu ous to s ay the least. He says the great rishis and acharyas of Hinduism were not

Hindus b ut that the Ramakrishna Mission is not n on-Hindu. Yet the RKM had approached to the

court to argue that they were a non-Hindu mino ri ty rel ig ion cal led Ramakrishnaism . Eventual ly the

court d ecided that the Ramakrishna Math and Mission were indeed Hindu and that there was no

such r el ig ious sect cal led Ramakrishnaism. IS

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Filed under:christianity,hinduism,india,indian politics,islam,legitimizing power,mohammed,neo-

vedanta,pagan,psychological warfare,theology,universalismTagged: |christianity,hindu

universalism,hinduism,islam,ramakrishna mission,ramakrishnaism,religion,sri ramakrishna,swami

vivekananda

With Pakistan, India must act as an adversary. Tufail AhmadThe Vamadeva Sastry Interview

Rajiv Mehrotra

20 Responses

1.

Chirag, on August 20, 2013 at 2:44 AM said:

RK and SV both re-fueled hinduism with improved ideas. In that sense, they have done a great job

indeed! SV was influential on many freedom-fighters and his words led them to fight for freedom.

Their contributions in these two regards are definitely immeasurable. The rest is not important and

must be removed if RKM is propagating that!

Reply

o

IS, on August 20, 2013 at 7:24 AM said:

No doubt SV was a great nationalist and motivator and he is to be honoured for that. His

darker sidehe was something of an enigmawould never have come up for review if the

big wigs in Belur Math had not decided to renounce Hinduism and project Sri Ramakrishna

as a non-discriminating universalist who had embraced Christianity and Islam.

Reply

Chirag, on August 21, 2013 at 7:37 PM said:

In travelling from Naples to Port Said, on SVs way back to India, in January 1897,

the Swami had a dream of an old and bearded man, he appeared before him,

saying This is th island of Crete, and showing him a place in the island, that he

might afterwards identify. The vision
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went to say that the religion of Christianity had originated in the island of Crete

and in connection with this gave him two European words, one of which was

Therapeutae which it declared, were derived from Sanskrit. Therapeutae meant

sons (from the Sanskrit putra) of the

Theras, or Buddhist monks. From this the Swami was to understand that

Christianity had originated in a Buddhist mission. The old man added The proofsare all here, pointing to the ground. Dig and you will see!

As he awoke, feeling that this was no common dream, the Swami rose, and

tumbled out on deck. Here he met an officer, turning in from his watch. What o

clock is it?, said the Swami. Mid-night! was the answer. Where are we? he

then said; when, to his astonishment, the

answer came back fifty miles off Crete!

Our Master used to laugh at himself for the strength of the impression that this

dream had made en him. But he could never shake it off. The fact that the second

of the two etymologies has been lost is deeply to be regretted. The Swami had to

say that before he had had this

dream, it had never occurred to him to doubt that the personality of Christ wasstrictly historic. We must remember, however, that according to Hindu

philosophy, it is the completeness of an idea that is important, and not the

question of its historical authenticity. The Swami once asked Sri Ramakrishna,

when he was a boy, about this very matter. Dont you think! answered his Guru,

that those who could invent such things were themselves that?

original text from RKM book

itself:http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/

Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Sen

Reply

IS, on August 21, 2013 at 8:49 PM said:

What exactly is your point?

It is a well known fact that Christianity was influenced by Buddhism and

that there were both Hindu pundits and Buddhist monks in Alexandria

and the surrounding area by the 3rd century bce.

How does this justify the claim made by some of Sri Ramakrishnas

devoteesand later the RKM gurusthat he saw Jesus and Mohammed invisions and thereafter embraced both the religions?

Reply


I am saying that SV was of the opinion that christianity/Jesus are

based on some falsehood truth. So, how would RKM claim tohave Jesus/christianity acquisition/vision?
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Senhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Senhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Senhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Senhttp://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15738#respondhttp://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15738#respondhttp://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/#comment-15741http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15741#respondhttp://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15741#respondhttp://rutmandal.info/http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/#comment-15743http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/#comment-15743http://rutmandal.info/http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15741#respondhttp://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/#comment-15741http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/did-sri-ramakrishna-embrace-christianity-and-islam-koenraad-elst/?replytocom=15738#respondhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Senhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Conversations_and_Dialogues/II_-_V_Shri_Surendra_Nath_Sen


13/17

Reply

2.


In the article above, Dr. Elsts interrogator asks if Swami Vivekananda was a liar. Well yes, indeed,

he was when it served his interest. For example there is the scandalous matter of Totapuri who

according to Vivekananda was the Dashanami sannyasi who initiated Sri Ramakrishna into Advaita

Vedanta.

Vivekananda required a direct link to the Dashanami Sampradaya in order to claim that his own

sannyasis were also Dashanamis. So he invented Totapuri. RKM sannyasis could then carry the

title of Puri attached to their names, indicating that they were Dashanami sannyasis through

Totapuri and Sri Ramakrishna.

My information on good authority of old devotees attached to the Mission in Kolkata, is that there

never was a Dashanami sannyasi called Totapuri, allegedly from Harayana, associated with SriRamakrishna.

Totapuri was a fictional character whom Vivekananda invented to serve the purpose of creating a

bogus parampara link to the Dashanami Sampradaya and its great gurus Adi Shankara and Rishi

Vyasa.

Oh, there is more of these RKM deceptions in the queue that could be related here, but I will leave

the recounting of them for the time being.

Reply

o


Totapuri was not a fake personality. Check this

source:http://www.prajnanamission.org/bioGurudev.shtml

Reply


I have stayed some time in Nanga Babas ashram in Puri and have questioned the

ashram managers and devotees closely about Nanga Baba and Tota Puri.

All deny that Nanga Baba was ever known by the name Totapuri, or, indeed, by

any other name than Nanga Baba.

All the evidence points to the strong probability that Totapuri was a fictitious

person invented by SV in order to claim Dashanami linage.

But all this redundant. The religion of Ramakrishnaism and its adherents do not

have a Dashanami connection as they have renounced that possibility along with

their Hindu identity.

Reply
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14/17


I am disciple of shri Anandi Ma thru her shaktipat initiation (dyc.org) andmany of her lectures confirm that Totapuri is of the same lineage and

initiated shri Ramakrushna. Anandi Mas guru Madhusudan Dasji is

contemporary of shri Ramakrushna and shri Totapuri.

Reply


So it is still all hearsay evidence from authority (which as Dr KE

points out above is not a valid argument).

Sadhus and saints will repeat the most blatant falsehoods firmly

believing the stories to be true.

But this doesnt change the fact that the stories are untrue or at

least highly suspect.

Reply

Chirag, on August 21, 2013 at 10:44 PMsaid:

I am sorry to say IS that your information too is based on

from authority. So, I cannot deny and you cannot

accept with the same strong evidence available now, I

think!

Reply

IS, on August 22, 2013 at 5:02 AMsaid:

Yes, my information is also from authority.

The difference is that my information comes

from an authority close to Nanga Baba and not

some second or third hand source.

There is no reason for you to be sorry about it!

Reply
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15/17

3.

Dr. Vijaya Rajiva, on August 19, 2013 at 5:43 PM said:

A timely intervention by Dr. Elst. Who BTW is this idiotic Hindu who goes out of his way to bring inIslam and Christianity by the backdoor?

My opinion: it could be Romain Rollands books on Ramakrishna and Vivekandanda which have

led Hindus of a certain generation to speak such utter nonsense.

Meanwhile the small town and village RK Missions in India continue to hold prayer meetings with

Hindu gods and goddesses prominent.

Reply

o


Yes, the small town missions with their dedicated swamis do do good work. Except at

Christmas and Easter when they are obliged to do the Missions Christian pujas.

Tiruvannamalai and other sadhu haunts like Haridwar, Rishikesh and Kashi have a fair

number of RKM sannyasis who have left the Mission because they identify as Hindus and

do not at all approve of the goings-on in Belur Math.

Reply

4.

R.Nanjappa, on August 19, 2013 at 11:30 AM said:

Such a hard-hitting response is long over due. I have been a student of Ramakrishna-Vivekananda

literature for 50 years and appalled by the many falsehoods which RKM is dishing out about RK.

They claimed RK was not a Hindu in a submission to the court, just for running some educational

institutions. They even say that Vedanta is not specifically Hindu but that there can be Western

Vedanta! RKM is a creation of Vivekananda modelled after the RC Church and has nothing to do

with RK. For that matter Vivekananda did not represent RK fully. Nor was he completely true to the

genuine Hindu outlook, due to his Western education, as pointed out by Marco Pallis. I have long

learned to separate my respect for RK from any attachment to RKM. That I love you doesnt mean I

love your dog too.

Reply

5.

IS, on August 19, 2013 at 11:02 AM said:

Christianity did indeed have an undue influence on Swami Vivekananda. He cross-dressed as a

Christian priest with Roman collar, cassock-like coat, and trousersthe photo of him in sannyasis

robes is a one-time only eventand modelled the Ramakrishna Math on the Benedictine monastic
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16/17

order and its religious houses right down to the non-veg kitchens. He may therefore be identified

as an early Hindu inculturationist (though it is very likely that he did not realised the grievous harm

that would ensue when he rhetorically invited Christian missionaries to occupy every village in

India).

He believed that his universalistic interpretation of Vedanta, called Neo-Vedanta today, would be

accepted by the Christian and Muslim religious authorities of the time. He was very naive. He didnot understand the exclusive and imperialistic nature of the Christian and Islamic ideologies at all

and was simply projecting his own gratuitous interpretation of Jesus and Mohammed onto the

religions.

Hindus are always deceived by their own fanciful, ill-informed views of Jesus and Mohammed.

Sri Ramakrishna was an ecstatic saint who often had visions. He was surrounded by christianised

Brahmo devotees who were ever eager to interpret these visions for him. It is these devotees who

have projected the view that Sri Ramakishna saw Jesus and Mohammed in visions and embraced

Christianity and Islam on equal terms with his own Hinduism. They got their views recorded in

some of the accounts of Sri Ramakrishnas life, and so the false story has come down to us today.

Neither Sita Ram Goel nor Ram Swarup, both of whom had made a close study of Sri Ramakrishna,

accepted that he had seen Jesus and Mohammed in visions or embraced Christianity and Islam inany legitimate way.

Sri Ramakrishna was a jivan mukta, a realised saint of paramhamsa stature. Having attained the

ultimate state by Hindu disciplines and devotion to a Hindu deity, it does not follow that he can

then embrace Christian or Muslim disciplines and obtain the same objective. It is an absurd

contention that ignores the particular objectives of the Christian and Muslim religions which are

not the same as those of the Hindu religion. The realised state of the jivan mukta would by its very

nature override all disciplines practised after moksha was obtained and make them redundant.

The Ramakrishna Math and Mission, once believed to be Hinduisms premier religious

organisation, is in fact a disgrace to Hindu Dharma and should be censored for telling lies,

demeaning Sri Ramakrishna with their lies, and misleading his faithful devotees and the Hindu

Samaj at large.For too long the RKM has been negatively influenced by its American Christian members who, it is

reported, put them up to declaring themselves a minority religion in the first place.

Reply

o

shaastra sevaka, on August 20, 2013 at 11:44 AM said:

Finally the math has become like any other commercial organization. In their school atmysore for instance, the seats are auctioned to the highest bidders This being the case,

their hairsplitting about religious matters is silly to say the least.

Reply


The RKM is very much a central government department run by wooden-headedbabus in kavi cloth. They receive huge funds from the government to run their

schools and medical dispensaries. The government favours them because their
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17/17

all-religions-are-the-same universalism corresponds to Delhis official religion of

Nehruvian secularism.

Reply

6.

cnm, on August 19, 2013 at 10:21 AM said:

Shri Ravishankar is someone who has shamelessly endorsed this nonsense that Jesus lived and

died in India. I have read his booklet on Hinduism and Christianity where he has retailed such

crap. He says in that booklet that from akashic records it has been proved that Jesu was in India.

What nonsense.God spare us from such Hindu Gurus if they can at all be called Gurus.

Reply

o

shaastra sevaka, on August 20, 2013 at 11:47 AM said:

akashic records, do those records also say that shri shri shri shrii is destined to go to

hell because of the curse of barbers around his ashram for having brought about a cult of

ugly flowing hair and ugly flowing beards?
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Did Sri Ramakrishna Embrace Christianity and Islam

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