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Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
CLIENT : University of the Witwatersrand – Historical Papers SUBJECT : Recce Group 09/2005 IDENTIFICATION : Tape 13 CONTACT PERSON : Michele Pickover DATE : 28 November 2008
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1. When typist is unsure of names, speakers will be identified by title. 2. Transcriptions are typed verbatim, and typist, when unsure of jargon,
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Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
INTERVIEWER: Its September 24th and we are in Pretoria and I am doing an
interview with some of the members of the Recce Group from operation Tudor
[inaudible] …which took place in Savate [inaudible] I think we will start by
everyone doing an introduction and just tell me briefly…just give me your name
and your background, when and how you joined 32 Battalion.
MIKE KILEY: Right I am going to start, my name is Mike Kiley, it would have
been October 1978 that Gert Nel came down to 32…to infantry school and …I
don’t know about you guys but I think I jippo’d it, I think they were going to have a
lecture on some guided missile and I think half of infantry school went down to
the parade ground to get away from the lectures and at the parade ground they
talked about 32 Battalion and I think half again you could still stay out of lectures
and most of…I think half the parade ground again went to listen to more about
32…and I think that’s when you were saying Twelve C spoke about starting a
Recce Group and doing bats…part of the deal was if you joined the Recce group
you could do bats…certainly for myself having a brother in Parrabats this was
like a double whammy, I could do Parrabats and join the Recce group and 32, I
don’t know about you guys but we didn’t really, I don’t think much was known
about 32 Battalion in those days, and then Gert Nel did interviews with all of us
and that’s how we were…eventually hand picked, not hand picked but we
certainly did individuals interviews if memory serves…and then you were called
in. I remember my Corporal Pretorius at infantry school said I wasn’t allowed to
go…and Gert Nel said he would make the judge around me and I could go…so I
was fairly pleased to have gone. Yes, that’s how it started, so it was very much
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
what you were saying Angela, like an incidental, not specifically saying I am
choosing that…so it was a double whammy I think for most of us, Recce
Group…I think we all had it in us, we wanted to do something so it was Recce
group and Bats and then we landed at Rundu as Grobbie said…first of
November 1978 and we went straight to Buffalo…
MALE SPEAKER: No we attested that the next day, 2nd November we all
attested a short service…
MIKE KILEY: For the extra year and then we went to Buffalo and we did the
…soon after that we did selection …there were 30 white guys who started and 20
that made it.
MALE SPEAKER: I don’t know how many started off…
MIKE KILEY: It wasn’t much more, but 20 of us …they wanted 20 and we were
of the 20 that finished the selection.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember that there were some guys who came
through the platoons and were in the selections with us…and Gawie did selection
with us…
MIKE KILEY: Gert van der Merwe…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes a couple of guys and they decided to continue with
the platoons and that’s why [inaudible] but the guy that came from infantry school
…we wanted to go and Recce him…
MIKE KILEY: Yes we certainly were going to that.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And as our selection finished we went straight onto
[inaudible] and the platoon guys went back to the platoon for whatever reasons.
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MALE SPEAKER: Ek wil net weer sê ek bliksem julle.
MIKE KILEY: I think that’s it. From the early days how we started up.
We…Gert gaan jy praat of gaan ek praat?
GERT: Nee praat maar.
OPPIES: Okay Oppies, we did an interview before so you should have my
particulars…I joined because I was in trouble in infantry school….so I just wanted
to get out of there …I was in flying squad, full kit like hierdie rooi doilie goed wat
ons altyd gehad het…I was running all the time with full kit with rocks in my bags
and all that.
INTERVIEWER: Why?
OPPIES: Because is caused shit, but anyway my apologies for the
language…but, so I wanted to get away from there and when they called us to
the parade ground I thought they were going to cashier me, or take me to DB
when we were all called to the parade ground that afternoon. There was going to
be made an example out of me…how they chuck somebody out of the army into
jail or something like that. So then when I heard there was this opportunity to go
somewhere, I didn’t know about 32 Battalion or nothing, that was the first time in
my life that I heard about it and I decided to join, because I wanted to go to
Recce even before when we started as a troop with basics and I went to infantry
school to prepare myself better to be able to go there, and there was this
opportunity…not only bats or whatever, you could go to the Recce’s as well …go
and do the selection, so that was a further step closer to the Recces and I was
gone and I was out of trouble at least.
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
MIKE KILEY: Not for long.
INTERVIEWER: Out of the frying pan into the fire.
OPPIES: Yes but I soon realised when we started doing the training we started
off with the initial selection…after the first day three out of the four of my group
…we were two left…Frans and I were there, Gert Greeff, his team left so Gert
joined us so the three of us finished as a stick there….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You are joking, after day one?
OPPIES: After day one…actually day two when we came back to the border,
that morning there the people just left and you were left, the only one from your
group and you joined Frans, Gert and I.
GERT: I think it was the second or third day that the guy…I think his name was
also Oppies, his name was Opperman….
OPPIES: No it was Roelie Brits…and that day, the Sunday we had to cross the
river. Third day was when you and Frank and I went past the crocodile down the
river, when he came upstream and they shot at them at the bottom, that crocodile
came up and the three of us were floating downstream past it, and the next day,
it was the morning of the fourth day …when Pep and them came to see us off for
the day, and they said Roelie Brits was caught that night.
GERT: Ek het gedink [cross talking]
OPPIES: They were killed in September when we were up there with infantry
school…Opperman was killed,
GERT: Also by a croc?
OPPIES: No he was killed in action at Enombi on the way up to an ambush
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there that had an effect on me many years later when we took him, some
companies or whatever.
GERT: Whose funeral did we attend in Mossel Bay…
OPPIES: Okay, but that’s how I got there by just wanting to get away from
infantry school.
PETER LIPMANN: Theo Lipmann, I was initially called up to the megs, and I
decided I didn’t want to become a tampax dippie…so then I volunteered for
Parrabats…and they came around and did a little selection and that and went out
to bats, so I did my basics with bats and then on PT course I got a hernia in my
stomach muscles and so I couldn’t carry on with the course and then I heard via
the lines about 32 and what a great organisation it was and I decided to volunteer
for 32 and that’s what I did and I arrived at 32 and Big Daddy said to me what do
you want to do here, and I said I want to fight….so he said he had never had that
request before but he would see what he can do, and a couple of days later
that’s after off loading two magillis loads of shit for the PF’s …and came back to
me and said okay I must go and do the basics with Bravo Company again. So I
went and did basics again with bravo …slept with the troops, ate and drank with
the troops, was treated like a black and after that we did a selection and went to
the Recce group and then I joined Mike and Oppies and all of the guys and
carried on from there.
MIKE KILEY: Did you join us as a launcher?
PETER LIPMANN: Yes I joined as a launcher…no troop.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You were a Lance Corporal when you came down?
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PETER LIPMANN: I was a Lance Corporal in the army…
MALE SPEAKER: Peter what time was that…where in the year because I can’t
remember …
PETER LIPMANN: I battle to recall that.
MALE SPEAKER: Middle of the year or….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Maybe sometime in 1979 Peter.
PETER LIPMANN: Yes in 1979 sometime.
MIKE KILEY: We got there at the end of 1979 and you only joined us after
that…[cross talking.
PETER LIPMANN: You guys were the first and we did the second.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Ours was the real selection…
MIKE KILEY: The second selection was only at the end of that year.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes they walked about 10 kilometres so they could get
fit.
INTERVIEWER: Listen…the 32 Recce selection differed from normal Recce
selection, more difficult.
MIKE KILEY: More difficult yes.
INTERVIEWER: Silly question, they are always slightly different.
MIKE KILEY: But it was a very unique on site what they could do with us…they
had to walk about 30 – 50 odd kilometres a day without food.
PETER LIPMANN: We didn’t get food, we had a lekker chow that one time with
the bread with diesel and the stew…that was a nice chow.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I think we did, as long as we did the 70 kilometre
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stretch…
MIKE KILEY: The first night on our way up to the first sleep over point Frank
and I and the other two we got a puffadder snake and we braai’d it there that
night…
PETER LIPMANN: With Tony Buren…
MIKE KILEY: No it was not with Tony…it could have been.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember us rocking up with RV point and they were
slitting the snake open, it has 17 babies in it…
MIKE KILEY: Yes we all got a little piece, we shared it…you even like headed
towards Dominee those days, and you share with the others. Only 50 kilometres,
I did that in the morning….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: How long was the selection, two weeks?
MIKE KILEY: But did you also walk to Amani….and to Omega?
MALE SPEAKER: Yes…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: No we didn’t go to Omega, we did the selection at
Buffalo…[cross talking] and water poled back, I [cross talking]
PETER LIPMANN: The Gamma Feinstra…speaking like a Zulu….
OPPIES: Okay there are still some that need to ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Come Gert, don’t be shy….
GERT KOTZE: Gert Kotze, I have been in Delta company with infantry school
in 1987 …Gert Nel Oudtshoorn.
OPPIES: You mean 1978? [inaudible]
GERT KOTZE: Bottom line is because I was immediately…because I like to
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
fight, don’t want to talk…I am not a lover I am a fighter…I tend when I go to 32
and I decided to join up with it…that’s all. And I blew off the Blue Bull supporter.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Tell me about the souties that were up there with you in
the Recce group, didn’t they drive you bossies?
GERT KOTZE: I tried to convince them to speak the A-programme language
but f….it didn’t help. They had to speak that horrible language [cross talking]…
DIRK LOUBSER: My name is Dirk Loubser, I am originally from Namaqualand
so that’s why I got called Daisy…and also I was recruited with the 1978 group
and I remember we landed on the Oudtshoorn parade ground and that day there
was also the guys from the 31 battalion…and he …
INTERVIEWER: Who was recruiting for 31, was it Delville Lindford?
DIRK LOUBSER: I couldn’t remember his name but I couldn’t remember the
name of Gert, but I remember both of them were there, and they got a chance
just to say that they were coming here to recruit people for the two battalions and
I was also like Oppies …just looking to get out of infantry school, so I remember
half the parade ground left to left hand side of the parade ground and then they
had an opportunity just to tell us in short what we are going to do there and then
half of that, or three quarters of that group left again back to the normal parade
grounds and then we got in the SOS selection and we went there, and what I
remember except for all the walking of the first selection process was the fact
that we had to go over the river twice…and we went over the river just the day
after or two days after that Rudi got caught by the crocodile.
OPPIES: That was the same night, the last time…we crossed three times, first
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day, that night we came back and the third morning there where the Pontoon
used to be that’s where we were supposed to cross and Frank and Gert and I got
lost terribly right up…five or six kilometres up river …I did the mistake on the map
reading.
DIRK LOUBSER: I know the second time we got to the waters…we used what
is the Owambo population….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Didn’t we bend Oppies’ rifle [inaudible] that
night…remember you tried to shoot with your rifle, you tried to shoot and the
barrel was skew and you couldn’t understand what….
DIRK LOUBSER: Pity it didn’t explode when he shot with it.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Diddies and Kloppies was there as well….they were
making us run [cross talking] and now we are shooting our R1’s off…I am sure it
was your R1 man, you used it to try and break the lot on the [inaudible] and he
kept on shooting miss and when he held up the thing, he checked that the barrel
was skew…whets wrong with this thing…I said we got it from the stores
staff….meanwhile….
DIRK LOUBSER: Yes, that was the way that I joined, I couldn’t actually
remember how we got split into the groups and platoons and the guys in the
Recce …I don’t know how we got selected for the Reconnaissance Group but
any case from there on.
PETER LIPMANN: We volunteered from the beginning and we specifically you
guys go to platoons and you guys go to ….
MIKE KILEY: Yes but we had to pass the selection before...we went up saying
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we want to join [cross talking] you guys were there and you went to selection and
you carried on from there.
DIRK LOUBSER: I couldn’t remember that but in any case I joined the
Reconnaissance Group and I was with Oppies in a team…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And life has never been the same…
DIRK LOUBSER: Yes and all the [inaudible] that [cross talking]
KEVIN FITZGERALD: My name is Kevin Fitzgerald and I am commonly known
as Fritzy to most of my military mates …Angela has already interviewed me on a
previous occasion so much of my biographical data will be with her, and for
purposes of this interview I was also with, as most of us predominantly from the
infantry school where Gert Nell and C1 commander came down to do recruiting
drive…now I had heard quite coincidentally during my school matric year that the
stepson of our Principal by the name of Hugo Ackerman…his stepson went by
the name of Kevin Beck…Kevin was in one Recce at the time and he gave our
matric group a talk on his career in the military and the unit he was in and so on,
and he mentioned in that talk that the Recce guys often did operations with a unit
called 32 which was staff with mainly black Angolans and so forth and his opinion
of this unit was that the unit saw the most fighting in the SADF…as soon as I
heard that I thought I must get myself picked, and like all of us here I went
through day to day…infantry school hoping like hell that the end would come
sooner rather than later, because I think for most of us it was a incredible
diminishing experience and as with Oppies I think most of us there were running
against the grain in trouble most of the time, we were a bit individualistic with the
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system and when 32 came along, oh boy this was it for most of us, and a day
came when Gert Nel rocked up and 32 came into my consciousness again, that’s
what Kevin Beck told me about…so that was me gone, and I had a couple of
school friends in C2 with me, one of them was in Foxtrot, Frankie and another
chap Lance Mostert was in the platoon next door to mine in Alpha
Company…and I signalled to both of them to come across and most of them
gave me a quick firm shake of the head…we are not interested thank you very
much, so I hung around there by myself and then I went for the interview with Nel
and I made it quite clear to him that I really wasn’t interested in canon fodder, I
wanted to go into the Recce group etc, and from there I landed up mainly with
you guys and I had a hell of a nice time in the Recce group …that’s the reason
why we are sitting here today.
THABO MAREE: My name is Thabo Maree, I also joined the 78 group, the end
of 78 and I also didn’t know anything about 32 Battalion until then…and then that
started the most interesting time of my life.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And he is a rep[inaudible] in the Free State…are you
happy now.
THABO MAREE: It’s okay…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Is [inaudible] office still okay with you?
THABO MAREE: I managed to co-squash a couple of them ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Okay, that’s using initiative hey…
MIKE KILEY: I think the group to maybe just get the record straight as well…we
started off doing training with the Recce’s…Diddies and Kloppies came down
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
and taught us minor tactics and…..
INTERVIEWER: That was Andre Diedericks.
MIKE KILEY: Andre Diedericks and Stefan Kloppers…
MALE SPEAKER: en dan Samajooor de Beer….
MIKE KILEY: Yes but they came afterwards….[cross talking]
OPPIES: At that stage I realised I will never be a Recce because I wanted to be
a dominee by then and I won’t make it, I will get killed there …if you want to go to
the Recce’s that must be your career and it was not my career choice, so I
decided I would finish up there at 32 and then go and study.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And your conversion period was pretty quick.
OPPIES: No, that was before me ….
INTERVIEWER: How old were you all at this time, seventeen or eighteen…
OPPIES: Eighteen going on nineteen.
INTERVIEWER: And you all pretty much accepted that you were going to the
military, you had done your National Service, you sent to infantry….
OPPIES: That was part of National Service…yes.
DIRK LOUBSER: Dit is verplig…ek meen…
PETER LIPMANN: We were called up to do our National Service.
DIRK LOUBSER: And we were the first group that the National Service was
announced to be two years…1977 / 1978.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Okay, just to put the record straight here, in 1977 the
intake was originally a one year intake…towards the end of the year they said
those of you who are not registered for a tertiary education institution will remain
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on to do two years, like Kevin Caiton did…the guys who hadn’t registered in time
for university were registered and then rejected found themselves having to do
an additional second year. But the 1978 group were the first group that did two
years from the outset …we then had to do two years National Service stint and
you ran through it…but what happened with us was that Oppies quite rightly said
this was a career kind of situation where they put a heck of a lot of training and
money and so forth, we also had to sign up short service…that was [inaudible]
condition by the..[interjected]
DIRK LOUBSER: We were doing three years, not two.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes so short service was a contract extending your
military service by a year, now by that stage I was already permanent force…so I
went up as a Permanent Force member …but predominantly the guys in the
National Service had signed on for an additional year. Peter’s situation was a bit
different, you stayed on in National Service, and you didn’t sign a short term….
PETER LIPMANN: No I came back to sign on and it was my 21st birthday and I
didn’t end up going back, that was just after Willem got shot.
DIRK LOUBSER: Yes there were people who were signing short service after
the two years of their National Service and they were signing up for another
year…we signed up after the first year…after the first year we signed up for the
short service.
PETER LIPMANN: Do you guys remember that there was a mistake at the end,
do you remember that, the short term guys and that happened to most of the
short term guys…we signed up for one extra year and we actually signed up for
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
two, do you remember that, and I think …
DIRK LOUBSER: Yes because we did two years short service …one year
National Service and then the second year National Service coincided with the
first year.
PETER LIPMANN: Yes, and that was a mistake, when we left in the December
and suddenly we started getting phone calls to say that you have still got 12
months, I don’t know if you guys got that, I got a call to say you still have 12
months…you need to come back, but I didn’t go.
INTERVIEWER: What did you know about Angola at this stage in your life?
PETER LIPMANN: Nothing….
DIRK LOUBSER: Most of the infantry school troops were in August and
September …Thabo jy moet my help…I think it was August and September, we
were there for a certain period on the border…
MALE SPEAKER: Delta group didn’t go because they were a supporter
group….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Normally we used to do school rotation…a school used
to go up for about two months or something.
DIRK LOUBSER: By that time that we were up there we didn’t …Thabo we
didn’t really …they were just chasing us around there and …
INTERVIEWER: So did the …so you knew who FAPLA were…did you know
anything about UNITA at this stage or the FNLA?
MALE SPEAKER: Nothing.
PETER LIPMANN: You said it earlier, a lot of it was about adventure and
Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13
certainly for me a lot of it was we were going to earn R1500 with danger pay and
everything, its also saying R27 after haircut money and all that crap was taken off
at infantry school…all of a sudden you are going to earn R1500 or R800 it was a
lot of money, so it was also a motivation for me personally, it was the money and
adventure…the fact that we were going to Angola was an incidental for me.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: The fact that you were going to kill people that was it.
PETER LIPMANN: I didn’t want to say that in front of you, because I know you
are sensitive…..especial about people.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: [inaudible] historical records [inaudible]
INTERVIEWER: You had at some stage heard that 32 Battalion was
composed largely of black Angolans …who had been recruited out of the FNLA
and….
OPPIES: I heard it when I got up there…I never knew before.
DIRK LOUBSER: I think Gert just briefly told us what is the battalion and what
they are doing, and as I said in my introduction that’s why a lot of the people left
up there, went there to hear what Gert is telling, and they also went back after he
explained what 32 Battalion is doing.
INTERVIEWER: So he must have told you something about operation
Savanah…because I think at the stage that you guys were coming in I think 32
Battalion was sort of regrouping themselves up to Operation Savanah…and
Colonel Breytenbach had left.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Angela as I said to you initially we had a lot of
Portuguese and a fellow Angolan came to Potch Boys and through them I had
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become aware of the scenario that had developed in Angola and Mozambique
and so forth, so I had a bit of knowledge of what was happening up country and
when we arrived at 32 I think the leadership in 32 was about tenuous at the
time…with the departure of Breytenbach…Nel coming on board.
DIRK LOUBSER: Nel was there already the second year.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes, with Nel coming on board I don’t think quite
grasped the gorilla warfare mentality that Breytenbach had and expect these
soldiers to have an exercise and remember we were sitting around the fire one
night at Big Daddy and Big Daddy said to us we still had to move off Buffalo to
Amoni because there were other guys who were still doing their survival training
and he said to us the biggest favour that you guys can do yourself, is to think like
SWAPO and Breytenbach and these people did that naturally, and when you
came out of a more formal military thing where your background was very
conventional, 32 was a pucker genuine gorilla unit.
OPPIES: From the infantry school we realised that we didn’t know anything
about warfare, bush war….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And here we were suddenly amongst these FNLA guys
that had been fighting ever since they were fourteen or fifteen years old…these
guys had more battles behind them than we had had hot meals, and that’s why I
am not exaggerating, it’s a fact of life.
INTERVIEWER: Was this a bit intimidating for you, what was your first
impression of the Black Angolan troops? What were your expectations?
THABO MAREE: I didn’t know what to expect, but when we drove up to Buffalo
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I remember these guys, these mean looking black guys came out…there was
this boom at the entrance to Buffalo…and they came out with their
rifles…swinging them up to us and my first impression was this mean black
guy…and what I know and feel about the war and I sort of anticipated what they
knew about the war…felt inferior in that sense to their experiences.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: People sort of more or less started that way …these
guys had a lot of battle hardened experiences…and we were coming there and…
MIKE KILEY: Yes but I think it didn’t last for long…we realised quickly that even
with the experience …call it wind gat or whatever, but it didn’t take us a hell of a
long time and we were better than them with most things in the book….with
tracking, bush craft…fighting, carrying, walking everything.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: The leadership skills we brought with us as well.
MIKE KILEY: And that was within a month tops…initially it was…when you get
to the bush with these guys you think gee these guys are mean and …okay they
are not that whatever, we just ….
PETER LIPMANN: We basically set an example for them. We actually
had…they had the bush knowledge and in a week or two and to me it was
literally …maybe I am exaggerating but certainly it wasn’t a month and we
worked better than them.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes but we did minor tactics, we did the Bud Woskins
and Spoorsny with Dewalt De Beer.
PETER LIPMANN: Bottom line they did the course we had the experience.
THEO LIPMANN: We wanted to be good at what we were doing.
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KEVIN FITZGERALD: We brought that critical leadership capacity…which I
think most of the troops didn’t have, if you see how…they needed it and we went
in there as novices and the fighting platform, but really carried the leadership
platform to level…they couldn’t really achieve amongst themselves….and very
shortly after arriving there, we had been recruiting these guys down, these guys
might be mean and nasty and true grass war veterans, but we are not far behind
them, and in a short period of catch up and by mid year of our first year there, by
the June of that year we were pretty on par with their skills…in tracking bush
craft, the works.
INTERVIEWER: Did you at any stage feel there was a testing or sussing you
out or, can you remember any incidents where you felt like these guys are really
putting me over the coals to kind of test me out there…
MALE SPEAKER: Well I certainly did, I was basically the only white guy in the
platoon…I was initially by myself and I was certainly an example…they always
said can this whitie do it or cant it…and if I came through there then I was
accepted…slowly but surely and then I became part of them.
RESPONDENT: I had a troop, he was a Lance Corporal, Costa…geel Costa
and he challenged me by running and all that, but eventually I would, he was
tall…probably my length maybe a bit more. He was a big guy and a youngster
still, younger than we were…at that stage and when we would run up the air strip
and back …I would just keep up with him and he lost eventually because the last
five yards I would push it and then I would leave him behind and eventually I
showed him that he was still behind me…but that was a challenge.
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KEVIN FITZGERALD: But I think the typical thing of the African pride
there…they had their pride and they have to see who is up to the muster.
RESPONDENT: You had to prove yourself that was it. We were superior to
them, bottom line, whether it’s politically correct or incorrect it doesn’t matter to
me, they were yellow, the mulato’s were black, done deal we were better than
them.
INTERVIEWER: This is the attitude that you had, that you just.
RESPONDENT: We were better than them, we still are.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Can you remember that small tactic course, and that to
my mind learnt me the most of, and I think all of us, I remember the first night
when they chased us out of our TV’s and we all started to grab our stuff and ran
in all different directions…and they just kept on shooting over our heads. Then
the next day they told us but why do you run, you must just sit in the shadow and
wait for him to come by…because we cant see you, and then the next night we
laughed at them…they started to shoot at us and we just sat in the shadow of the
bush and he cant see you…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: The training that they did in Kroppies gave us an
incredibly firm foundation, incredibly tough, these guys couldn’t read us, they had
to teach us as much as they possibly could in a terribly short space of time.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: It was about two weeks, one week.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And they really revved us, and we walked away from
there with an incredible benefit.
MALE SPEAKER: I would say that lecture that I think Kloppies gave us, and he
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used two words, was one of the most incredible lectures that I have ever heard in
my life, and he kept…it was about escape and evasion …and he just said Go
Now….and he would talk and say ….Go Now….I think Gavin actually fell asleep
in that lecture…so it wasn’t very impressionable for Gavin…but every five
minutes he would….Go Now….it was incredible, maybe its eighteen years older,
but that had an impression.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: But look at Gert’s experience when you had that
accident and you thought you were in a foreign hospital…Gert had applied
everything that fell from that lecture….try and use as much of what it had, try and
snibble away as much as possible….
MALE SPEAKER: I was only prepared to kill the rooster.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Gert ended up in hospital after a car crash, and thought
he was in captivity …hid forks away, did this and that, and the next thing he had
engineered his escape. And it took a lot of convincing for the hospital staff to
actually convince Gert that he was in hospital …lets just say in Durban…there is
a hospital in Durban.
MALE SPEAKER: That was in Pretoria, where were you…Pietermaritzburg,
they transferred me to One Military.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: That’s what I was telling you, the impression that Diddies
and Kloppies formed on us, in our young minds, I mean he is still with us today,
and I am telling you …Diddie has passed away a while ago….
MALE SPEAKER: No, I didn’t know that. What happened?
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Cancer.
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THEO LIPMANN: I think the time that we went to 32 for me personally was the
most informative years…for me, the most impressionable, if you take whets
happened in the 26 months that we were there, how it influenced and then some
of the friendships…although Thabo you and I were seeing each other a lot, you
cannot explain it, the days when we haven’t seen each other, it’s the most
incredibly thing. That friendship that you still have, quarter of a century after we
have left, but it was absolutely unbelievable, it was fantastic, I wouldn’t take it
away for anything.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: I can also remember the training works of Kloppies and
Diddies, except for that night when they revved us the two nights, it was the day
after we wrote the exam, I think it was a Friday morning…and we had that whole
week we were just chased around, they inspected our weapons, as good Kobo’s
and veterans….on the last day and then they saw that most of our weapons were
dirty and they asked in those exams, we thought that everything was over, and
done…and they put us on the shooting range, but they chased us, that day I was
nearly, we had done all that training for selection, and then small selection, minor
tactics…but that day I was…I think the next day like Savate was the same…I
was so tired after that ….
OPPIES: I would like us at this point maybe just to check on the initial
pleas….the names and …because there is a bit of vagueness there and we need
to put Piet straight on the facts in his book, to get the full picture…I was kind of
personal and I realised my name is not in the book, and I was at the trust where
we actually granted him the money for the book.
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THEO LIPMANN: Maybe you didn’t give him enough.
MALE SPEAKER: My name wasn’t in there either, I was also a bit pissed off.
MALE SPEAKER: I actually felt like a box….[cross talking]
OPPIES: Suddenly a friend came to me and said your name is not in the book
and I thought he must think I am the biggest bull shitter around, so if we look at
the different teams….Frans Fourie and Piet Uys number one. Zac and Fritz
number two…then Billy Botes and Thabo Maree as number three…myself
Oppies and Daisy Dirk Loubser number four. Number five was Theuns Maree
and Gert Kotze…number six was Willie Botha and Piet Nortje…and then from
here it becomes a bit vague for some or other reason, I think we stayed too far
apart …I don’t know if he stayed next to you….were you on the opposite side
with Pierre Dahl….
MALE SPEAKER: I think I was initially with Pierre Dahl and then….you started
with Billy Buys.
OPPIES: No Thabo and I started together and Daisy and Boats had a fight…so
Blue Kennedy decided to change us around so Thabo took Boats and Daisy
came to me and that’s how we carried on from there. We had Willie Botha …he
was staying next to, as far as I can remember, next to Theuns …with Piet
Nortje…I think Piet Nortje was his Sarg….then we had Chrisjan Poole ….
MALE SPEAKER: Was that with Gert van der Merwe.
OPPIES: Yes, I suppose with Gert van der Merwe…then Stef Naude…who was
Stef Naude….Gabmon [?] Stef Naude was the last team …he was number
ten….Dave Ledderly….and then Pierre Dahl and yourself. Okay those were the
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initial ten …I don’t know if Ron Greary was with us at that stage…he joined us
later on….Blue Kelly was there.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: No Ron was there from the start…..
OPPIES: No, Blue was there from the beginning….unfortunately.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Who was the guy who decided to teach you
Portuguese…can you remember him….
OPPIES: At Amoni?
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Oppies will jy nie vir Chrisjan prober bel en hoor …seker
maak watter span was hy gewees nie?
OPPIES: Okay, please ja. Dit sal nice wees. Chrisjan….I tried to phone him
two days ago, the number didn’t work. Okay so those were the teams…that
makes up the ten teams and that’s how we started off, those were the ten guys.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Happy days.
OPPIES: I couldn’t remember if Gert was with us from the beginning …I but he
was…Gert van der Merwe….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Him and Piet Uys were at the top….I don’t have a
memory of Piet being on selection, I must be honest. [cross talking]
OPPIES: But from there….[cross talking] that was in that year. Weet julle wie
mis ons uit hierso….waar is Piet van Eeden hierso? Piet van Eeden came after
Peter Lipmann….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: What happened to Piet van Eeden…was he [cross
talking]
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OPPIES: Ore het ons ook later gejoin, Ore Venter nadat hy gefire was by
infantry skool…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes but he came as a base tiffy though….
MALE SPEAKER: Kim was there…they weren’t part of the Recce group.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: They were mainly personnel….
OPPIES: After Dave Ledderley got shot up and whatever and left, when did
smoothie join us, only a year after.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: He came with the lecture input intake…the next year
intake.
MALE SPEAKER: He shot himself in the foot while he was drawing…..
OPPIES: He wanted to draw and the towel was over the revolver and he shot
himself through the foot.
THEO LIPMANN: He told the guys in Pretoria on his crutches that it was one
hell of a battle. [cross talking]
OPPIES: He died as well…apparently he did these morning chopper flights for
traffic and he crashed his chopper and died.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I have no comment to offer on that but…..seriously you
tell me something, he does all the training for the ops, everything for the op but
the moment he puts his foot in the clepper and go, suddenly he had an
accidental discharge, how’s that.
OPPIES: So are you happy with the teams as we put it together more or less?
Those were the ten teams….
MALE SPEAKER: I just want realise that is originally…we have got a bit of
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movement around us, I don’t know if anybody…did anybody stay originally stay
at one through to …..
MALE SPEAKER: I did, he did….
MALE SPEAKER: Because I ended with Boats quite a bit I remember, I don’t
know why …I just.
OPPIES: It might have been with Lieb and all that….we must remember Willie
stopped operating at some stage…after that…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Piet Nortje stopped after the first contact….
OPPIES: The first one we had up there, there was a second one….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: It was Willie Botes’ crowd that had that one.
OPPIES: That’s where Piet, he was on that one as well. He was my Corporal,
so Gert and I we had a major night that first night because whenever I sleep I
get these little jerks in my sleep and I would hear Gert scuttling for his rifle….and
then I would be awake and say whets it, and I would say whets it, he said no you
moved, I said no you moved…that whole night we were ….
MALE SPEAKER: Did you eventually work out that it was him.
OPPIES: Yes. Maar as ‘n ou se gewete jou pla, dan pla die gewete.
INTERVIEWER: So you guys were the first recce wing.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Probably the longest serving of the [inaudible] by the
way. I get preferential service but ….
OPPIES: One thing I must also mention, we operated that first year without any
real leadership…we had Lukie as Staff Sergeant…we ….then Willem only joined
us after one year….Frank Fourie took over from [?] Kelly when we [interjected]
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KEVIN FITZGERALD: I don’t think Francois was ever officially appointed but he
filled that role [inaudible]
OPPIES: Yes, for a good six months before Willem came. We had a little vote
there about who it was going to be. I can remember, Francois Fourie and
INTERVIEWER: [inaudible]
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Angela we are just trying to take you to the uniqueness
that you found in the unit and the uniqueness that was in the recce group was
something incredible. Rank didn’t count, what counted was who you are on your
own merits as a person and as you know Francois went on to have incredible
career in the military and Oppies was always in leadership, that surprised me.
There was no question about I have the senior rank here, so I am taking over, it
didn’t work that way. If your peers thought you were competent then they gave
you their vote of confidence and that’s how it worked, and likewise if they didn’t
feel confident with you, they would let you know too. And it could happen.
MALE SPEAKER: [inaudible] arrived there the one day and had a heck of a
reputation, because we also used to know rank etc., and [cross talking] that’s like
a very unusual statement that he said….[cross talking]
KEVIN FITZGERALD: He only got shot at a few times….Lieutenant shall we go
forward or stay, and he would say get the f….out of here. So that’s sorted it out
very quickly. [cross talking]
MALE SPEAKER: He was right in a sense….he was a trooper but became
Captain quite soon after that.
OPPIES: About six months or maybe….
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MALE SPEAKER: He was used to the rank for a normal military.
B SIDE
DIRK LOUBSCHER: You must help me on that Thabo, Oppies I think there
was only the one base that 32 Battalion had and that was Buffalo,
OPPIES: As a unique camp …
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes but we were the first guys who went to Amahoni…
OPPIES: Maar dit was operasionele basis Amahoni.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes it was only used as an operational base.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Gert actually Rundu was operational base, that’s where
the guys used to appoint [cross talking] Amahoni was like a small logistical sort
of….prior to having been used by the Hott’s people, remember we got a …a chap
landed there one day and he got [inaudible] looked at the stables, they got
talking to this guy and said no …but two three years time he said this use to be
the Bereda…the horses operated from. [ cross talking] we must try and preserve
as much of the history of the base as possible.
MALE SPEAKER: But there was no stables there.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: No there were, behind the main stores, there was like a
wooden …don’t you know there were stables up there. The structure of the
stable might have been gone, but the remnants of it were there, and they said to
me this is where the horses used to be, and this and that and the next thing.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: We were the first group of 32 Battalion to stay there.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Permanently located there.
THEO LIPMANN: It was specifically our base….
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OPPIES: And they also, like I know Diddies after that the operations that he did
on his own, he came there and he did his preparation there…that small group….
Toy Fondso also came once….Smith….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: What did he [inaudible] did you ever get a
meeting….what was his proper name.
MALE SPEAKER: Kaffir …he is white…his mates didn’t like him.
OPPIES: I think the guy can also remember we stayed with our troops in one
tent…the teams were like …
KEVIN FITZGERALD: The great Blue Kelly [inaudible] [cross talking]
INTERVIEWER: Was this Blue Kelly’s idea that everyone should be integrated
and ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes, Blue had this mindset that listen you little racist
whities you were brought up in a racist society….
INTERVIEWER: He is Australian.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes he was an Australian…it was his attempt to get us
sort of integrated with our fellow compadres….
MALE SPEAKER: Its because Blue liked black nannies…he thought that
we….[cross talking] at a party the one day, one of his Zulu nannies [inaudible]
MALE SPEAKER: Guys let on this last pass …I got a black nanny, I could see
my face in her sweat, to make us cross remember….[cross talking]
MALE SPEAKER: You want our unbiased opinion of Blue Kelly, ask Mike he
got on very well.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Peter did you join us that day in Rosebank when we
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were saying cheers to Mike Rogers…did you join us that day…we had a farewell
lunch for Mike…but Mike…anyway Michael is running late and Blue pitches up
and he was with Executive Outcomes at the time….and he said Fritzy or might
be joining us…do they still want to kill me….
OPPIES: Maybe just for the record as well, Rita just asked me the troops….2
white guys’ three troops in a stick….5 man teams. My original troops were
Chisandre he was my Corporal….Costa came later….because it was …it was
Alfredo….you are right…it was Costa, Alfredo and Chisandre …when Chisandre
got killed we got hy is nou ‘n pastor daar op Pomfret….I will get to his name
now….he replaced Chisandre….
DIRK LOUBSCHER: All these guys, also yellowies….
OPPIES: Yes shortish guy…Thabo…I know Collibo was with you and Costa.
THABO MAREE: We had four troops in the [inaudible] and three of them ran
away that day…and those three were fired from the Recce group after that, so
we [inaudible] [cross talking]
DIRK LOUBSCHER: They showed us like Thabo said that they take us as
mean soldiers but when we really got to the frontline we saw it was very
courages for them to pick up a swastika and run.
OPPIES: At the end of that first year we lost most of our troops…they went back
to the platoons, they couldn’t face the reality of small teams…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: They were more comfortable in larger teams…the
[inaudible] twins survived, Caniba stayed on…Dellsure …
MALE SPEAKER: Dallsure, he was a strong thing, short and stocky …and
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Carlo Manuel he was a youngster…he was only about 17 when he was with
us…he also stayed for a long time. Kevin who got shot through the
hips….[cross talking] Kevin Santos was his name…we used to call him
sandsak….and Kevin had [inaudible] and Theun’s troop, they were within their
rifle [inaudible] and they came…they came back from the shooting range and
they hadn’t made it safe properly and it was in the vice and he was standing,
passing in front when the other one pulled the trigger …you know what, my
brother actually gave him blood in Oshakati that day….I heard that afterwards.
That was on the operating table and my brother actually gave him blood there,
arm to arm.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: After this Oppies was actually telling us the story that he
told us last night.
OPPIES: Okay, we have to get to Savati at some stage…I think this is kind of
getting the picture straight at the beginning group.
INTERVIEWER: I think maybe we can start on Savati.
OPPIES: I wish Willem was here, but okay …he will probably pitch up.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: He is in Pretoria…I drove all the way from Johannesburg
last night to get to the restaurant first …and the guy comes half an hour
later…explain this to me.
OPPIES: Okay, what happened at Savati…
INTERVIEWER: Let me just to refresh your, well what Piet has written in his
book….is that at the time UNITA was starting to take the towns along the
Cuvango River…and there was actually a request from UNITA …a direct request
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from Savimbi to the Generals to take the town of Savate…and the intelligence
officer for UNITA at the time was a guy called Pessito who is currently the head
of the Institute for Military….[Portuguese ] in Angola which is their Military
Academy. But at the time I think it was the same person, I think he was the head
of UNITA intelligence.
OPPIES: So Boats and I came back from leave…met up, when we landed at
Rundu I was requested to stay behind in Rundu, Boats was sent back to
Amahoni …Willem was there and I found myself in this strange situation where it
was like in the headquarters in a planning session …probably the first that I had
experienced in my life where it was done in a building and not at Amahoni where
we sat on the ground and ….
DIRK LOUBSCHER: If I can just say something that I remember now…that
was the time when Savate was our second year and I think that was the time
when we didn’t really operate much in those times as teams…we …there were
one or two groups who were doing reconnaissance …with Willem and then the
other group was like more like a fighting force for real fights….if I can remember
something like that.
OPPIES: It started off that way so we started planning for Savate…I was taking
a group to do the access route, to reconnaissance the access group to the
dispersal point…where the whole fighting force would disperse from there.
Willem went in with another group …he went in to check up the base
itself…with…in choice I chose Thabo, Boats, Caliba, the machine gunner, and
Casu was the medic…so the five of us went in to do the route in…Willem had,
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we had a discussion last night about it, and a difference of opinion eventually
…Piet van Eeden with him….Paulu….Piet van Eeden and Paulu and then a
UNITA ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: No, that’s a different context.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Costa was the one who went with Willem, I remember it
was there where he walked in the base….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Piet and Costa stayed behind to guard the Kleppers and
things…Willem and Paula did the base recce….
OPPIES: And this is where this …a Senor Lopez…he took us in…with one of
their vehicles, the two teams.
INTERVIEWER: He was a UNITA intelligence person who was working for
Chief of Staff Intelligence at that time…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Intelligence, and one of his dubious qualities is that he
can [inaudible]
OPPIES: Okay so we did the aerial photographs and the …we also took the
maps and that, and they would have taken us up …dropped us off at a specific
point where we would walked…it would have been a night in and out to get to the
dispersal point …check out the area…because we were supposed to lead in the
remaining fighting force. Willem and his group they took two kleppers …his
canoe type folding …..
KEVIN FITZGERALD: These are disassembled kyaks….
OPPIES: So they dropped us off that afternoon about three, four o’clock around
there, but the middle of the day, we travelled most of that night and day until they
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dropped us off. We each had one water bottle and because it was in and out, we
were dressed lightly. They took Willem further on and we started walking and
walking and walking….eventually came daybreak we were out of water at that
stage …we still couldn’t find the road, and we started doing a 360…meaning you
go one kilometre, one kilometre, then two kilometres, then two kilometres,
making a square to find this road. By one o’clock that afternoon we didn’t find
anything…by then we were basically stuffed because the water was gone and we
were thirsty, it was a hot day …by then probably 40-50 kilometres that we have
walked and not finding anything, so we started talking back to Amahoni to the
main fighting force was at that stage…and said we have got a problem…so they
sent Big Daddy with a spotter and he started looking for us, and for some or
other reason I told him listen you are still south of us…I can hear the aeroplane
but to me it sounded like they were still south of us…eventually they were like 30
odd kilometres north of Savate…there is another establishment there…and they
said but they are going to get into trouble now if I am going that way, they are
much too far north…so they came back and it was just before sunset…suddenly
the plane passed overhead…we said wait you just passed over us….and so then
they realised what happened. The road we were supposed to take was a quite
northerly directed road, but they took the complete different route which went
basically north west, so the time scales as we had it and where we were
supposed to be dropped got sucked up by this other road, and we went through a
UNITA establishment…that was the first time in my life that I actually saw UNITA
in the veldt…we went through one of their towns or bases and from there we
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went north…meaning that they dropped us off about five to ten kilometres too far
to the west and about five kilometres south from where we were supposed to be
dropped off, so we were in no-man’s-land ….that’s where the river makes the
turn from North-South to a very North-Westerly, South-Easterly direction and we
were in that no-man’s-land there. Willem on the other hand when they went in,
they heard this base in front of them, they heard the noises from the base and
they thought it was the northerly base where the aeroplane turned around
from…so they went south into the river and started rowing down the river. At
some stage the guide said wait I know this place, its very far south of the
base…so they were actually walking into Savate and thought it was the northerly
base so they rowed back up towards the base and went onto the opposite side,
onto the eastern side of the river bank and they established an observation post
from that side. By then we were…they said no we must just walk back to the
river, they will pick us up when they come in, the main fighting force…and we
said no way we are stuck…we slept there that night and the next morning we
started drinking drips because we didn’t have any water and saline drips and it
tasted so shit that is put condense milk in it and the condense mile actually made
it worse …but we, by then we were dehydrated and I was finished…..I said I am
not walking, if you want me come and fetch me, and big daddy said from base,
no just go to the road we will find you …I said there is no ways….if you want us
you come and fetch us…eventually they came and fetched us by chopper. Flew
us back and took us into the ops room there, showed us on the map what
happened, and then we got onto the vehicles and we started driving in. We slept
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over the first night just on the opposite side of the border, next day by nightfall we
were close to the dispersal point from where we deboned from the vehicles. We
took the force to the dispersal point …the recce group was about a kilometre
ahead of the main force…at that dispersal point Zac would have taken over the
recce groups operation. As we entered that bush, the one vehicle came from
behind and we all jumped into the bush …that is my recollection of it. We all
jumped into the bush and that vehicle as he entered the bush area, I think he
saw the tracks on the road and the dust still hanging in the air and he made a u-
turn…he stopped and turned around and went right slap bang into the main
fighting force. They shot him up like …we didn’t hear any shooting but they shot
the whole vehicle up but never hit the driver or anything…he got away and ran
away, and I think that might have been one of the results of what happened
eventually in Savate…he may have made his way back to Base I don’t know, so
we eventually got to the dispersal point, the main group went down, we prepared
from there and that’s where Zac took over with the recce group, and he would
have then lead us into our stopper group position….to the north of Savate…I still
remember talking to Rassie …he was the IO….Captain Erasmus…he got killed
there. I still put black is beautiful on his bless…and said remember you have got
a wife and kids…so look after yourself. That was my last words to him and then
we eventually dispersed …who was the guy with the mortars…Buddies…he went
to the south…Mortar Buddies, because he started the fight that morning with
putting mortars on the town.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember standing around and listening to those
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mortars going off…we had no idea that they were [cross talking]
OPPIES: We were not in position yet when they started bombing…we were at
the road about at that stage, and we started dispersing from there….that when I
fell asleep, that night because we were in single file going towards our place and
I just fell asleep, because it was now for the last three or four days that we had
been at it since we started, and when I opened my eyes again I couldn’t see the
guys in front of me, and they were gone. Eventually I …Boats was behind me
…we were in a single file behind each other and he saw and said no they went
that way, so we caught up again. He was walking with his hands in his pockets
and at some stage he stood on a branch and his foot slipped off and he fell
down…so we had kind of fun that night, but we were stuffed…so come sunrise
we were at the road and we stayed behind. We were supposed to be three/three
in proper groups all the way down…but the terrain did not allow that…so I think
two or three of our sticks stayed there at the road and as the bushes allowed or
whatever with enough cover and that, we went into groups and …at the
river….we thought the most obvious escape route would be from the …might be
on the road and that’s why we actually took three groups there at the road…with
enough fire force to stop vehicles coming in.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: I think there was one group on the right hand side of the
road as well….
OPPIES: Yes, but just to cover up a little bit…for the fighting part of it…and then
eventually we, but when we reached the road that morning, the first mortars
already started falling, I think it started at six o’clock that morning, on the dot that
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we heard the mortars coming in. And then the fights started and okay we didn’t
see anything for that whole day but we started hearing the vehicles going up the
river side, that’s where Fritz and them were….at this stage I want to give over to
Fritz because ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You must have been sleeping.
OPPIES: I was…I was, but then we woke up and so we followed the fight on the
radio …we heard that Rassie got killed and Charle was missing…and with the
vehicles going through that side we decided to all move down towards …by then
your troop was been shot, Alfredo, Alberto Rodriques….he was space monkey…
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Remember we threw him in the air and we didn’t catch
him…and he landed on his head, and he was never the same, we called him
space monkey after that.
OPPIES: They came back but what happened was, after the vehicles …at some
stage when we realised that Charle was gone, we thought they had abducted
him…and we could not allow that, and then the choppers started shooting at the
convoy…that was going out and then there were hundreds of people fleeing to
the north, [cross talking]
MALE SPEAKER: Remember we weren’t allowed any air support….only for
casualties. They only came in for Charle.
MALE SPEAKER: No not even for Charle…when space monkey came in…he
got shot….Sam Heath still came out, he had been wounded remember….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes we had already called in chopper casu-vac …then
the choppers came in and we already had heavy casualties before that. They
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thing about this op and we need to put it into perspective here…you were
mentioning intelligence earlier on and so on and so forth…now we were not
really privy to the mechanisms behind the whole issue…safe to say they even
involved UNITA there was some sort of shenanigans going on …we all accepted
that…they really were very clever at disguising the real motives why they actually
requested the South Africans….I think the South African Defence Force actually
didn’t control UNITA strongly as perhaps they could have. We were very
subservient to them. We helped them on may occasions, things that you will
never know about happened and I think a certain amount of illicit trade off also
occurred for the benefit of certain people in higher echelon….I am saying it for
the record, he made quite a [inaudible]
MALE SPEAKER: But you go back to the orders before this even started, go
back to the orders at Amahoni…that was, I think it was very well done, remember
we were in the mess….and Captain Erasmus had talked about, remember his
comment there….he still had one of those pointers and he still made a joke at the
end, remember, and said if SWAPO cant take a joke, best they are not there.
And the [inaudible] was there…and we all laughed and this was going to be
funny…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: One of the things that you realised about this whole thing
was you were not going to have the advantage of air support…we were all very
conscious of that. This was going to be a hard battle and we knew it was going
to be hard, and it turned out a lot more intense.
OPPIES: Yes, the reason why is because we went in clandestine as
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UNITA…and they knew UNITA did not have air coverage, so that…they didn’t
have choppers and that kind of thing, so we would have gone in…intelligence at
that stage said 200 odd people in base, and five or six vehicles…there was a
main force coming down from the north, and we had to take the town before they
came in. Eventually there were 2000 and something in base…we were a main
force of 400 odd because we said two to one…we will take the town and get
them out…eventually we were outnumbered by five to one…
MALE SPEAKER: Just to jump again, did we lose 17 on that day?
KEVIN FITZGERALD: 60….
OPPIES: What we counted about 560 – 580….so the reason why we did not
have the air support and there was a very odd part of the orders were that only if
a white person gets killed or wounded they would come in and fetch him….[cross
talking] I know because I was part of the planning process….
MALE SPEAKER: But why is that odd?
KEVIN FITZGERALD: I thought they would be general for casu-vacs …
OPPIES: That was a very specific order….[cross talking]
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You know why I think that order came out, because they
didn’t want any whites landing in NPLA hands because it was meant to be a
supposedly UNITA exercise, and that was the thinking behind that, because
when Charle…went missing, I mean the hunt to find him was intense and
exemplas what I am saying is…if it would appear that they would have a white
person in their hands, to show now that the so called UNITA stuff doesn’t exist,
its actually a 32 …saying that all along, and here it is to show you.
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INTERVIEWER: It would have been a big propaganda.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: That was the principle reason why they wanted to get
while wounded officers and NCO’s out so that these guys weren’t left there
wounded, and the intensity of the fact was that it had to happen. The intensity of
the battle would have actually left behind…the battles we fought, the NPLA lines
would sweep around behind and that’s how a lot of these guys were killed, they
were isolated, with the medic [inaudible] all of a sudden there are twenty or thirty
people streaming out of the bushes here and they are dead ducks…and the big
fear was that if any of those bodies were ever put on parade the SADF would
have a lot of explaining to do….egg on their face basically.
DIRK LOUBSCHER: The other thing that I also remember was the black is
beautiful that we use…they were very tense on that operation that you had to
make sure in the morning and in the evening that you have to be recovered…
OPPIES: I can remember…so when Charle disappeared the whole recce group,
from the road we decided we were going down to help Fritz and Zac down at that
the river …because they took all the fighting the whole day, and by then the….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Fritz and Lipmann my boy.
OPPIES: Yes I was there with you, running down that river there and getting
clawed at the back from your [inaudible] that blue up.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Zac sat passively by while I [interjected]
OPPIES: Great but whichever way I wasn’t there so you can talk on that…so we
all grouped together and we took on all the groups as we were in the stopper
groups and we realised then that they are not going to use the road and we went
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down that way and by then they were streaming by their tents…and as we went
down that way we started shooting…Daisy stayed behind for some other reason,
I think we left a skeleton group behind in each location…and he went and saw
two guys running and he shot the one from far off, and he said I got one, and we
said ja, ja, ja,….to Boats and I we saw the two guys so we split off from the main
group and went in to look for the one that he shot…he was talking us into the
location where the guy dropped, so we wanted to go and get him…there was
another one he went into the grass….so Boats and I we were about 40 yards
apart…he was on the far side and I was on the near side and the main group
then swept up the river bank and suddenly this one guy popped his head out of
the reeds and I shot at him but my rifle was on automatic and the second shot
actually landed right in front of Boat’s toes…I nearly shot Boats and he was the
moer in with me, he said hey you nearly shot me, and I said sorry, sorry….so I
ran up to the guy and the first shot actually got him and he was wounded and
lying there, and so I ran and jumped on him so he could not shoot us, but in the
meantime Swannie in the main group put fire to the vlei there….
MALE SPEAKER: What had happened there….we were sitting and three guys
walked up…the two Viera [?] twins and I was on the side and three guys walked
up, and at that point in time my bowls said time to get emptied…so I was actually
having a crap and these three guys were walking up and I said to Viera’s
[inaudible] because I was still to pull my pants up and get my rifle…they thought
I said fall…so they [inaudible] and I was pulling my pants up and grabbing my
rifle and shoot and whatever, they then got into the reeds and that’s when we
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through the white fos to try and get them out, and that caused the initial …the fire
where …then the battle carried on …we will get to that later, but that fire ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: That memory with the ruck sack in the tree…
MALE SPEAKER: But we didn’t know what it was, because we were fighting
down the side taking fire from wherever and we heard the noise behind, not
knowing it was your machine gun noise.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: We had met up with you guys we had just had one of
our little fire fights so we dumped all our kit and got into the fire fight and you
guys had had your action, and we were actually coming back together, walking
back together when the thing suddenly let rip and we thought we are in bit shit
here, and looked around that dead silence, and we went out and realised, our
machine guns and we ran back and ….
MALE SPEAKER: Not our machines your one that you left behind.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You guys had also dumped your machines….
MALE SPEAKER: Yes and ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: And from the perspective of battling death that day,
without a question Peter and I were actively almost didn’t stop, the whole day.
MALE SPEAKER: Remember we saw the guys and we ran down and chased
them, we saw a vehicle coming up that you shot at and it did a u-turn remember
it came back.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: We shot at a convoy bud….
MALE SPEAKER: No we shot at a vehicle…and that vehicle went up, we shot,
it did u-turn, hit the tree and stopped….and we didn’t realise what was
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happening…we went to have a look and there was blood and stuff in the vehicle
and the guy was gone. When we got there was 500gram tins of Red Tuna…we
ate with bayonets and condense milk.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: But we shot up that convoy later on.
MALE SPEAKER: Yes that was later on.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Like I said last night, that was great fun….the convoy
was like a Hollywood movie…
OPPIES: Then Ekerman and the convoy came down the road and they went to
cut off the front vehicles past us that went through…the chopper actually took out
some of the convoy vehicles that has passed through our lines….so eventually
what happened, I saw this guy he had one of these Bakelite AK magazines on
his belt, the one that I jumped on where it nearly shot Boats….and I was still bent
over him and I couldn’t get the thing out so I had to loosen his belt and that, and
by then he was dead….so I tried to get this Bakelite bayonet from his belt and the
next minute the fire caught me from behind him …and my whole face was burnt, I
still remember it was about three days this left eye of mine was kind of burnt into
a little ..opgeskroei toege….
MALE SPEAKER: Have you still got the bayonet?
OPPIES: No, so what happened is I left, I just grabbed my rifle and his and I ran
out of the fire again…so Boats and I stood there and we realised we were in big
shit now because there was this wall of fire coming towards us so we looked and
looked and checked where the fire was at its lowest and we ran through the fire
towards you, the other group. So we ran through the fire and then we saw that
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guy and the guy that Daisy shot to the right…he was probably five yards from
where I was when I shot the other guy…and nearly killed both. And there were
the two guys and by then the bayonet was off the …so it was actually …
DIRK LOUBSCHER: That thing about the kill…Oppies jumped on him and
Diddies he always tell us you don’t kill, you overkill….he told us, him or Kloppies,
the only thing he wanted to say was to make sure that he is dead, and that he is
not in a position when he is still lying down there and to shoot you.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Have any of you guys been watching this program on
BBC…those of you who are crazy enough to watch DSTV…they actually had a
very interesting program on that….channel…I remember MFM….clearly
emphasising with those guys, never take them for granted, make sure the guy is
dead. Because you are walking across in his peep line, the guy is going to shoot
you from behind….I never forgot that, we never took a chance…it was drilled into
us, as much as go now was drilled into us…remember make sure they are
dead…
OPPIES: Lucky Thabo will still remember that one…when Falkons said from the
chopper now shoot Oppies, kan jy onthou…for that reason there were still guys
lying around there…I took one troop and we went out to collect the weapons and
make sure they were dead, and Falcon said there is somebody there, and Thabo
shouted don’t shoot its Oppies, and Falcon lost his cool there because I was
away from the group.
MALE SPEAKER: What op was that?
OPPIES: That was where we had those ambush things where ….
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MALE SPEAKER: Was that fire force, when we did fire force we were in
platoon…
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Butterfly was the fire course.
MALE SPEAKER: Yes we went in and …
OPPIES: We went in and we killed twelve of them that day in the area where
the chopper took off and Theuns and I and Frankie stayed behind and the
chopper…that’s where the chopper pilot shat in his overalls that day and he had
to turn back ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Our chopper pilots were good.
OPPIES: The chopper took off and as they came back I wanted to get in again
and the whole stream came out again and then we started cleaning up the area.
And Falcon said from the chopper, nou skiet vir Oppies. Thabe skreeu moenie
skiet nie dit is Oppies.
KEVIN FITZGERALD: That emphasis of making sure that they are dead, they
had quite an interesting programme run by Eddie Stone, in SAS Task [inaudible]
we had two of them, SAS are you tough enough for the jungle, and SAS are you
tough enough for the Desert thing which was Storm in Namibia, and I watched
these things in various patches and I never watched it in [inaudible] ….i was
watching a re-run the other night of one in the jungle, and it just showed you how
the male is going to go totally against the grain of what most of us are going to
say here…but some woman on those selection courses matched the men and
made it right through to the end and the one in South West Africa, two women,
and two guys got through to the end. It just shows you resilience is not always
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gender based.
MALE SPEAKER: They must have had [inaudible]
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Sorry, and in this programme they put this question to
the woman, are you sure you killed him…they had a mock attack on a terrorist
base or something…and once again they said are you sure you killed them…now
the SAS performed a raid a few years ago in the mid 80’s where they killed IRA
terrorists in Gibraltar and it was two SAS Sergeants that were actually
responsible for doing the assassination if you want to call it that, and these guys
pumped almost the entire Brownie magazine into each of these guys. The
families of these two Irish guys they went to the Human Rights Court and these
two guys were held up for trial…and the question of how many rounds they shot,
the guy turned around and said why did you stop shooting….the guy said I
couldn’t reload fast enough, that kind of comment…but they grilled this particular
candidate on the selection course for TV purposes…they grilled her and said are
you absolutely sure that person was dead…and she turned around and said but
why…and she said you cannot take a chance they have to be certain of
that…and that was grilled into us…we were taught to be very economical about
shooting, double tag, make sure they counted…if you weren’t sure you gave him
a few more…and for good measure a few more, but you make sure that he is
dead otherwise you were going to be the dead guy, and that’s what it came down
to. I was going to live and that guy was going to die, bottom line.
OPPIES: We lost people like that….Willie de Vos and Wally Coetzee was shot
like that from behind…they passed through and the guy shot them from behind.
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MALE SPEAKER: And they didn’t have black is beautiful, so they singled out
the white guys and ….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Right, but that overkill issue.
OPPIES: Savate…in the meantime what happened…Willem was on the other
side of the river…that night when we moved in, he actually crossed the river with
as far as I can remember Paulu…the worked through the base…he realised
there was big shit…because there were far more people in that base than what
was originally given to us by the intelligence…and so he took…they had a party
and he took beer cans and that and marked out the trenches…and there were
two sets of trenches as well which we didn’t know about…so he took the beer
cans and walked through the whole camp…he marked out the trenches for the
beer cans for the initial fighting the next day, for them to be able to see it…but
communication was still bad at that stage…
DIRK LOUBSCHER: Was it in that marking of him that you walked into the one
guard, and the guard was talking to him and he didn’t talk at all to the guard and
Paulu talked back to the guard and then he just carried on, Willem just carried on
with his marking…that was…
OPPIES: That was at the air strip….and during that day Rassie got killed,
Patrick got killed, he was intelligence junior…Rassie got shot right next to Falcon
through the neck…Trompie was there so Trompie will give us that …
KEVIN FITZGERALD: Patrick got struck with the white fos.
OPPIES: Yes he got shot through the white fos and he burnt out…eventually
they found Charl the next morning, I think …or that afternoon late…
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MALE SPEAKER: No that same day…we still had to go back and look for his
body.
OPPIES: That was during that attack the Thursday when we were running with
the convoy at the north….
KEVIN FITZGERALD: You are quite certain about that….[cross talking]
MALE SPEAKER: We had the radio on with a normal handset, and they cried
haven’t found haven’t found and it came through they had found his body.
OPPIES: He was dead in one of the trenches. So Engelbrecht was the only
one missing the next day, and after we regrouped his platoon was sent back to
fetch him, or to look for him, he was gone…he and another troop Willem Nel…so
what happened at that stage was the following night the platoon was sent back
…Engelbrecht was still missing and one of his troops and they went straight back
and found him actually lying there with his corporal or whatever over him, and
they both were killed and that was the kelp at that stage. It was a red head
guy…he wasn’t there for long.
END OF RECORDING
Collection Number: A3079 Collection Name: “Missing Voices” Oral History Project, 2004-2012
PUBLISHER: Publisher: Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand Location: Johannesburg ©2016
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