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razgovarali | interviewed by Vjera BakiÊ i Matthias Kulstrunk

Intervju: Stephan MäderVlasnici su smatrali da je razdoblje proizvodnjezavrπeno i da zgrade treba sruπiti. Odgovorili smoim da su te zgrade za nas katedrale 20. stoljeÊa,da bismo ih rado iskoristili

Interview: Stephan MäderThe owners considered that the building had to betorn down. We told them we thought of thesebuildings as 20th century cathedrals and that wewould love to use them

> U samom gradskom centru, nasuprot jezgre srednjovjekovnog grada, uWinterthuru se u 19. stoljeÊu razvilo industrijsko podruËje poduzeÊa Sulzer.Od svog osnutka 1834. godine pa sve do 80 tih godina proπlog stoljeÊa, Sulzerpostaje jedan od svjetski najznaËajnijih industrijskih koncerna u podruËjustrojogradnje.Krajem 80.tih godina produkcija se sa industrijskog podruËja u gradskomcentru premjeπta na rub grada. Za industrijski grad Winterthura traæe se novenamjene. Prvi veliki graevinski poduhvat ostvaren je u Hali 180. Pilot projekt.Nekadaπnja kovnica grijaÊih kotlova 1991. godine postaje visoka πkola zaarhitekturu.»IP: Winterthur je bio jedan od najznaËajnijih industrijskih gradova u ©vi-carskoj. Jesu li se i arhitekti bavili propaπÊu ili povlaËenjem industrije kojeje poËelo 80-ih godina proπlog stoljeÊa?Mäder: Arhitekti ili Visoka πkola za arhitekturu nisu to iskusili u velikoj mjeri,ali jesu proæivjeli. ©kola se prije bavila sama sobom, radila je za sebe i nije seni teæilo uspostavljanju kontakta s gradom. To se posljednjih godina promije-nilo. Radimo projekte u suradnji s gradom i industrijom. Od 1990., dakle odtrenutka kada je prestala proizvodnja u vaænim dijelova industrije strojeva,

> In the center of Winterthur, across from the medieval town, the industrial areaof the Sulzer company evolved. Since its foundation in 1834 until the 80's ofthe last century, Sulzer had become one of the worlds most established enter-prises in the range of engine construction. At the end of the 1980's, the pro-duction was moved from the central area to the outskirts of the city.For the central industrial estate, new utilisations were looked for. The first bigdevelopment was realized in the Hall 180. The former production facility hasbeen turned into the architectural faculty of the technical college.»IP: Winterthur was one of the most significant industrial cities in Switzer-land. Did architects also deal with industry decline or withdrawal that beganin the 1980s?Mäder: Architects or the Winterthur School of Architecture did not experienceit to a great extent, but they did live through it. The School had been self-con-cerned before, it had worked for its own benefit and there had been no aspira-tion to establish contacts with the city and industry. But that has changed in thecourse of last years. We are working on projects in cooperation with the cityand industry. Since 1990, i.e. from the moment when the production in theimportant parts of machine industry was suspended, the Sulzer company zone

PRENAMJENE | CONVERSIONS

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zona poduzeÊa Sulzer postala je Ëestim podruËjem istra-æivanja za projektne radove studenata. Bilo je tu hipote-tskih pitanja, ali i praktiËnih projekata po narudæbi treÊih.Sulzer-Immobilien AG i grad Winterthur poduprli su teprojekte.»IP: Prvi sluæbeni projekti za prenamjenu industrijskezone poduzeÊa Sulzer predlagali su ruπenje i izgradnjupotpuno novih objekata u toj zoni, takoreÊi simulacijuna slobodnom graevnom zemljiπtu. Kakav je danasstav prema takvoj vrsti urbanizma?Mäder: Brojni arhitekti tada nisu imali znanje i iskustvoza prenamjenu takvih industrijskih zona. Projekti su bilipreveliki i zamiπljeni suviπe objektno, suviπe projektno.Cijeli proces preobrazbe, moguÊnost reagiranja na raz-liËite uvjete, bili su zanemareni. Upravo jako veliki projektinisu mogli biti realizirani. Danas se dogaa neπto drugo,u cijeloj zoni rade se manji projekti i postoji opasnost daÊe najbolja zemljiπta biti prodana i izgraena. To bi zna-Ëilo da neÊe ostati dovoljno vanjskog prostora i da zgradeneÊe moÊi biti adekvatno povezane.»IP: Zbijenost srednjovjekovne jezgre Winterthura usuprotnosti je s prostranoπÊu hala i prometnih povrπinaindustrijskog grada. Na tu posebnu vrstu urbaniteta u-tjecali su pogoni za strojogradnju. Kako su uopÊe u 90-im godinama, kada je proizvodnja premjeπtena, otkri-vene arhitektonske kvalitete i razvojni potencijali oveindustrijske zone, odnosno kako su prepoznate kvali-tete tog novootkrivenog “zabranjenog grada”?Mäder: Postojale su dvije skupine koje su otkrile poten-cijal te zone. Neki investitori rano su doπli do spoznajeda industrijske zone u gradskim srediπtima imaju velikuvrijednost kao nekretnine. Nas arhitekte viπe su zanimaleprostorne kvalitete tih graevina i prostora izmeu njih.Premda se radi samo o natkrivenim radnim mjestima, tegraevine posjeduju jedinstvenu raskoπ i arhitektonskulogiËku strogoÊu. To nas je zaintrigiralo. S vrlo malo ma-terijala graditelji su postigli veliku prostornu kvalitetu. Nijebilo jednostavno pronaÊi specifiËnu namjenu za te gra-evine. Takvim objektima ne mogu se nametnuti bilo ka-kve namjene, nego treba “osluπkivati” zgradu. Kao πtopokazuje ova montaæna gradnja (pokazuje rukom u smje-ru ËeliËnih stolova u hali 180, op. a.), moæe se postiÊi ja-ko puno uz vrlo malo sredstava. “Osluπkivati” zgradu zna-Ëi pitati: Kakva je struktura? Kakav je prostorni poten-cijal? Prije svega treba provesti odreena ograniËenja iliprilagodbe u odnosu na potrebe korisnika, te biti svjestanda se ovdje ne mogu i ne moraju realizirati svi uobiËajenistandardi kojima se teæi u novogradnji.»IP: Moæda baπ iz tog suæivota sa starim objektom na-staje i neka posebna kvaliteta. Neka vrsta kulturne re-ciklaæe.Mäder: Upravo tako. I viπe od toga. Adaptacija Sulzerhale 180 je bila zamiπljena kao privremeno rjeπenje zapet godina. Bilo je vrlo malo vremena za projektiranje.To je naizgled bio problem ili prepreka, no kasnije smoshvatili da je upravo taj Ëimbenik bio odluËujuÊi za uspjehprojekta. Radili smo brzo i jednostavno. Projektirali i gra-dili. Gradske vlasti nisu imale na temelju Ëega takav pro-jekt joπ i kritizirati, a kako je bio zamiπljen kao neπto pri-vremeno, bile su velikoduπnije u propisivanju uvjeta negoda se radilo o definitivnoj prenamjeni.»IP: Hala 180, nekadaπnji pogon za proizvodnju kotlo-va, sagraen 1925., prenamijenjena je 1991. u Visokuπkolu za arhitekturu. To je bila prva velika prenamjenajedne tvorniËke hale u sklopu industrijske zone Sulzeru kojoj je ugaπena proizvodnja. Moæete li ukratko opisatikoncept ugradnje?

became a frequent subject matter of students' researchprojects. There have been hypothetical questions, but alsopractical projects commissioned by third parties. Sulzer-Immobilien AG and the city of Winterthur supported theseprojects.»IP: The first official projects for the reassignment of thezone proposed tearing down of the existing and construc-tion of entirely new buildings in the zone, a free play-ground so to say. What is the current viewpoint aboutthis urban design aspect?

Mäder: At that time, many architects did not have theknowledge and experience needed for the reassignmentof such industrial zones. The projects were too large, tooobject-like, and too project-like. The entire process of trans-formation and the possibility of responding to differentconditions were pronouncedly neglected. Typically, it wasprecisely the very large projects that could not be real-ised. However, something different is happening today -smaller projects are being carried out in the entire zoneand there is a threat that the best plots will be sold andbuilt on. That means that there would not be enough out-side space and that buildings would not be adequatelyconnected.»IP: The compactness of Winterthur's medieval core con-trasts the spaciousness of the halls and utilisation of newconstruction land in the industrial part of the city. Thisspecial type of urban design was influenced by machinemanufacturing plants. In the 1990s, when the industrywas relocated, how did you discover the architecturalqualities and development potential of this industrialzone, how did you recognise the features of this newlydiscovered "Forbidden City"?Mäder: There were two groups that discovered this zone'spotential. Some investors realised very early on that in-dustrial zones in city centres are very valuable real estate.We architects were more interested in the spatial quali-ties of these buildings and spaces between them. Al-though they are nothing but covered work spaces, thesebuildings possess unique lavishness and architecturallogical strictness. That was what intrigued us. With verylittle material, the constructors achieved great spatial qual-ity. It was not easy to find specific purposes for these build-

Intervju: Stephan Mäder, Visoka πkola za arhitekturu Winterthur | Interview: Stephan Mäder, Winterthur School of Architecture

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Mäder: Hala je dugaËka pribliæno 120 m, πiroka oko 30do 35 m i visoka otprilike 15 m. Osnovna zamisao bila jedobiti πto viπe radnih mjesta za studente putem otvorenemontaæne gradnje s galerijama. Vanjski zidovi odnosnoovojnica zgrade pri tome nisu dirani. Na obje razine ga-lerija ponuena su radna mjesta za 240 studenata, a doljeu natkrivenim podruËjima, na blago poviπenim pode-stima, smjeπtena su radna mjesta za predavaËe, te re-cepcija i knjiænica. Na drugoj strani organizirana su Ëetirivelika podruËja za odræavanje seminara. »etiri velikaËeliËna elementa, “ËeliËna stola”, smjeπtena unutra, je-dna velika pristupna cesta, te - kako bi se udovoljilo za-htjevu vatrogasne sluæbe za omoguÊavanjem direktnogizlaska iz zgrade u sluËaju nuæde - mostovi, koji se isto-dobno mogu koristiti za uspon na platforme.»IP: Dakle, πkola je poput parazita ugraena u staruljuπturu, ovojnicu. Samu halu nije se puno diralo, sa-Ëuvao se doæivljaj velikog prostora. Je li bilo potrebnomnogo uvjeravanja za provedbu tako radikalnog kon-cepta?Mäder: I opet nam je posao olakπala Ëinjenica da smoradili neπto privremeno. No, uvjeravanje je svejedno bilopotrebno, jer su vlasnici - industrijsko poduzeÊe i njegovizastupnici - mislili da je razdoblje proizvodnje zavrπeno.Smatrali su da zgrade treba sruπiti. Odgovorili smo imda su te zgrade za nas katedrale 20 stoljeÊa, da bismoih rado iskoristili. Naπe oduπevljenje i simpatije i na njihsu djelovali zarazno. Nakon toga je sve iπlo vrlo brzo.Sulzer je financirao cijelu adaptaciju, kanton Zürich uzeo

ings. A purpose cannot be imposed on these facilities,we need to "observe" the building instead. As this prefab-ricated building shows (points with his hand in the direc-tion of the Hall 180 steel tables), a lot can be achievedwith very limited resources. To observe a building meansto ask: What is the structure? What is the spatial poten-tial? First of all, we need to define certain limitations oradjustments in regard to the users' needs and be awarethat not all of the usual standards of newbuilding can beachieved here.»IP: Maybe a special quality can arise from this very co-existence with the old building. A sort of cultural recy-cling.Mäder: Precisely. Even more. The remodelling was envis-aged as a temporary five-year solution. There was verylittle time for designing. It did not seem a problem or ob-stacle at first sight, but later we realised that precisely thisfactor was key to the success of the project. We workedquickly and simply. We designed and built. The city gov-ernment did not have a precedent for judging a projectlike that, and since it was foreseen as a temporary thing,they were even more generous with the brief then theywould have been if it had been a definite remodelling.»IP: The Hall 180, the former boiler manufacturing plant,built in 1925, was reassigned in 1991 to become a Schoolof Architecture. That was the first large-scale reassign-ment of a factory hall within the Sulzer industrial zonewhere production was put to a halt. Could you brieflydescribe the concept of the built-in construction?Mäder: The hall was approximately 120 meters long, 30to 35 meters wide and about 15 meters high. The basicidea was to get as much work space for students as pos-sible through open built-in construction with galleries. Theoutside walls of the building were left untouched. On bothgallery levels we offered room for 240 students, whiledownstairs in the covered areas, on slightly elevatedbases, there are work spaces for lecturers, a receptiondesk and a library. On the other side, there are four largeseminar areas. That's it (points to the collage). Four largesteel elements, located on the inside, one wide accessroad and, in order to satisfy the wish of the Fire Brigadefor a direct exit from the building in a case of emergency- bridges that can also be used to get up on the platforms.»IP: So, the School was built in into an old shell like aparasite. The hall itself was not altered much, the im-pression of a large space was kept. Did it take a lot ofpersuasion to carry out such a radical concept?Mäder: Again, our job was made easier by the fact thatwe were engaged in something temporary. But persua-sion was definitely needed because the owners - the in-dustrial company and its representatives - thought thatthe manufacturing period was over. They considered thatthe building had to be torn down. We told them we thoughtof these buildings as 20th century cathedrals and that wewould love to use them. Our enthusiasm and fondnessacted contagiously. After that, everything went quickly.Sulzer financed the entire remodelling, the Zurich cantonleased the entire building and built-in prefabricated ele-ments. The remodelling costs were paid off by the rentand writing off. In the beginning the rent was paid at theprice of 160,000 CHF a month. After five years the invest-ment was paid off. Today we only pay the rent for theland. The built-in prefabricated elements are paid off.»IP: We do not very often see a case when the designercontinues to teach at the school he has built. Besides,this is also an experiment: the School of Architecturewas placed in an industrial hall. Today, you manage this

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je u najam cijelu zgradu i ugraene montaæne elemente.Tako su troπkovi adaptacije vraÊeni najamninom i amor-tizacijom. U poËetku se najamnina plaÊala 160.000 CHFmjeseËno. Nakon pet godina investicija je otplaÊena.Danas plaÊamo samo najamninu za zemljiπte. Ugraenimontaæni elementi su se amortizirali.»IP: Rijetke su prilike u kojima se moæe sagraditi πkolau kojoj arhitekt sam i predaje. Uz to, ovdje se radi i oeksperimentu: Visoka πkola za arhitekturu ugraena jeu industrijsku halu. Vi danas vodite tu Visoku πkolu zaarhitekturu. S jedne ste strane ukljuËeni u projekt kaoarhitekt, a s druge kao voditelj πkole i to se isprepliÊe.Da ste ovdje jednostavno najmoprimac, kako biste toocijenili? Biste li i dalje æeljeli ostati ovdje?Mäder: Naravno, postojala je sretna okolnost da smoadaptaciju mogli realizirati sa zainteresiranim kolegama

School of Architecture. On one hand you are involved inthe project as an architect, and on the other as a schoolmanager - the two are interconnected. If you were sim-ply leasing it, how would you rate it? Would you still wantto stay here?Mäder: Of course, luckily enough we could carry out theremodelling with interested colleagues with broad views.We took this hall in our possession, in a manner of speak-ing. We still design, build, enhance, and optimise certainstructures. That is important to be able to experience abuilding as your own home. Without knowing the back-ground it would be difficult to answer your question.»IP: A special type of school was generated: all five gen-erations of students can work together in a large space,they can experiment together. The concept of classes ina single space. To what extent was the teaching con-

Intervju: Stephan Mäder, Visoka πkola za arhitekturu Winterthur | Interview: Stephan Mäder, Winterthur School of Architecture

PROJEKT | PROJECTPrenamjena industrijske hale u Visokuπkolu za arhitekturu, Sulzer Halle 180

ARHITEKTI | ARCHITECTSEppler Maraini Schoop Architekten,BadenMäder + Mächler Architekten, Zürich

LOKACIJA | LOCATIONTössfeldstrasse 11, 8406 Winterthur,©vicarska | Switzerland

NARU»ITELJ | CLIENTSulzer Immobilien AG, Winterthur,Kanton Zürich

GODINA PROJEKTIRANJA |PROJECT DATEPrenamjena: 1990.Proπirenje: 1996.

GODINA REALIZACIJE |CONSTRUCTION DATEPrenamjena: 1991.Proπirenje: 1997.

UKUPNA TLOCRTNA POVR©INA |GROSS SURFACE AREA5533 m2

UKUPNA TLOCRTNA POVR©INAPRO©IRENJA1999 m2

UKUPNI TRO©KOVI IZGRADNJE8.048.000 CHF

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πirokih pogleda. TakoreÊi smo prisvojili ovu halu. I daljeprojektiramo i gradimo, te poboljπavamo i optimiramoodreene sklopove. To je vaæno za doæivljaj zgrade kaovlastitog doma. Bez poznavanja te pozadine bilo bi teπkoodgovoriti na vaπe pitanje.»IP: Nastala je posebna vrsta πkole: svih pet generacijastudenata moæe zajedno raditi u jednom velikom pro-storu, zajedno eksperimentirati. Koncepcija nastave ujednom prostoru. U kojoj se mjeri koncepcija nastaveprilagodila arhitektonskom konceptu? Moæemo li ovuzgradu danas promatrati kao novu tipologiju πkole ili jeona neπto doista specifiËno za industrijsku arhitekturu?Mäder: Za nastavu je odluËujuÊa jedinstvena atmosferai rad u otvorenom ateljeu. Naravno, dobro bi nam doπloviπe manjih prostorija za prenoπenje teorijskih znanja iseminare. No, to πto nedostaju i nije tako loπe. U tomsmislu ova hala moæe imati karakter uzora. Jean-PhilippeVassal iz pariπkog arhitektonskog ureda Lacaton&Vassaljednom je ovdje jako dobro primijetio da bi moæda bilojednostavnije napraviti tvornicu raketa i zatim je prena-mijeniti u Visoku πkolu za arhitekturu, nego odmah pro-jektirati πkolu. Jedna od spoznaja ovog projekta je daprogrami skrojeni po mjeri zapravo ne posjeduju onufleksibilnost i prisutnost kao neπto πto se prisvoji, πto sezapravo mora zaplijeniti da bi se moglo koristiti.©kolaskrojena po mjeri bila bi moæda bolja kad je rijeË ofunkcionalnosti, ali ne bi bila bolja u pogledu prostora isvjetla. A to su zapravo osnovni elementi i ovdje ih imamou izobilju. Dobro svjetlo i prostrane prostorije.»IP: To je, naravno, velik dobitak za sve, u prvom reduza arhitekte koji πkoluju svoju vlastitu predodæbu pro-stornih proporcija.Mäder: Mislim da studente obogaÊuje to πto mogu raditi

cept adjusted to the architectural concept? Can we con-sider this building today as new school typology, or is itsomething truly specific for industrial architecture?Mäder: The critical thing for classes is a unique atmos-phere and work in an open studio. Naturally, we coulduse a larger number of smaller rooms for theoretical knowl-edge transfer and seminars. But their lack may not besuch a bad thing after all. In that sense, this hall can beviewed as an example. Jean-Phillipe Vassal from the Pa-risian architectural office Lacaton&Vassal once rightlyobserved that it might be simpler to build a rocket factoryand then transform it into a school of architecture, than todesign a school in the first place. One of the things thisproject brought to conscience is that tailor-made pro-grammes actually do not possess the flexibility and pres-ence like something taken over, something that reallyneeds to be captured to be used. A tailor-made schoolmight be better in the sense of functionality, but it wouldnot be better in terms of space and light. Those are theessential elements and here we have plenty. Good lightand spacious rooms.»IP: That is, naturally, a great gain for all, first of all forthe architects who sometimes have to learn somethingnew about their ideas of spatial proportions.Mäder: I believe the students are enriched by the fact thatthey can work in this space for 3 or 5 years. The reactionof outsiders is also interesting. Some of them are im-pressed by the space, others are reserved, thinking theycould never work here. Some judge negatively, thinkingthey could never come to terms with something like this.That is a shame, because they do not see that qualityamenities can be achieved even without a lot of money.»IP: So there is a polarisation in the sense that the projectis a bit provisional?Mäder: Yes, but that might have something to do with thefact that guests and visitors coming here lack the oppor-tunity to withdraw. My belief is that it was even worse be-fore, or at least manifested more strongly. Today, whenall university education facilities have to accept new teach-ing forms, we suddenly notice that the Hall 180 can besuitable for contemporary classes.»IP: The project also has urban design implications. It ispartly viewed as initial condensation factor. This part ofthe industrial zone has in the meantime been assignedwith numerous temporary purposes. Are there any inter-actions with other temporary or final users?Mäder: Yes, of course. Entering the Hall 180 was in factthe first step of the land reassignment, containing ware-houses, i.e. areas between Tössfeldstrasse and the rail-road. In that sense the remodelling of the Hall 180 wasvery important for further development of the zone. Otherusers moved in later. Recently they established an asso-ciation, whose objectives we support. However, our handsare tied, because the Canton sometimes has ideas regard-ing the use of the Hall 180 s that are different from ours.Our goal is to stay here or do everything in our power tobe able to stay here. But we are not the ones to decide on

uzduæni presjek

longitudinal section

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u ovim prostorima 3 ili 5 godina. Zanimljiva je i reakcijaljudi koji dolaze izvana. Jedan dio njih pod dojmom jeprostora, drugi imaju neke rezerve, misle da ovdje ne bimogli raditi. Neki su pak negativno nastrojeni, smatrajuda s neËim ovakvim ne bi mogli izaÊi nakraj. To je πteta,jer ne uviaju da se i bez mnogo novca mogu dobiti dobriprostori.»IP: Dakle, dogaa se polarizacija u smislu da je projektpomalo “trash”?Mäder: Da, ali to moæda ima i neke veze s time da gostimai posjetiteljima, koji dolaze ovamo, nedostaje moguÊnostda se povuku. Mislim da je prije bilo i gore ili se baremjaËe manifestiralo. Danas, kada sve visokoπkolske usta-nove moraju prihvatiti nove oblike uËenja, iznenada seprimjeÊuje koliko hala 180 moæe biti prikladna zasuvremenu nastavu.»IP: Projekt ima i urbanistiËke implikacije. DjelomiËnose na njega gleda kao na Ëimbenik kondenzacije. Ovajdio industrijske zone u meuvremenu je dobio brojneprivremene namjene. Postoje li interakcije s drugimprivremenim ili krajnjim korisnicima?Mäder: Da, naravno. Ulazak u halu 180 zapravo je bioprvi korak prenamjene zemljiπta na kojem su bila skla-diπta, dakle podruËja izmeu Tössfeldstrasse i æelje-zniËkih traËnica. U tom je smislu adaptacija hale 180 bilavrlo vaæna za daljnji razvoj zone. Poslije su se doselilidrugi korisnici. Nedavno su se organizirali u udrugu, Ëijeciljeve i mi podupiremo. Nama su, meutim, ruke vezane,jer kanton u vezi s koriπtenjem hale 180 ponekad imazamisli koje se razlikuju od naπih. Naπ je cilj ostati ovdjeili poduzeti sve πto je u naπoj moÊi da moæemo ovdje o-stati. No, odluku o tome ne donosimo mi. Udruga ili ko-risnici snaæno se identificiraju s lokacijom i dali su Sulzeruponudu za kupnju. SliËnu situaciju imamo u Baselu i onanam moæe posluæiti kao putokaz. I tamoπnji privremenikorisnici æele kupiti objekte koje su uzeli u najam, dakleæele doÊi u posjed velikog dijela zone kako bi je samidalje razvijali.»IP: Privremeni korisnik moæe si nakon nekog vremenai sam priuπtiti investicije?Mäder: ToËno. Postojala su dva modela razvoja: jedan

that. The association or the users identify strongly withthe location and have submitted an offer for purchase toSulzer. We have a similar situation in Basel, which canpoint the direction. The temporary users there also wantto buy the facilities they leased, meaning they want to owna large part of the zone in order to continue developing itthemselves.»IP: Can a temporary user afford investments after awhile?Mäder: Yes, exactly. There were two development mod-els: one of them was to let the space for temporary use.However, the owner did not make profit that he could havemade by leasing the newly built structures. But that is whyin the shortest possible period of time we created a diver-sified offer and lively urban scene. On the other hand, theprices in the newly built areas are relatively high and there-fore there is no vivacity to be felt yet. Moreover, there arealso clear target groups that can afford it. Stylish living orluxurious shops. There it is hard to accommodate publicpurpose spaces on the ground floor, but finally that is thedetermining factor in order to achieve liveliness in theentire zone. What happens automatically in the remod-elled spaces is hard to achieve in newly built ones. It sim-ply takes time. Compared to Zurich, Winterthur was abackwater for a long time. It did not evolve that dynami-cally. But that fact can later turn into advantage. Therewas more time to think. The projects were smaller, wecould react according to the situation, and that can bemore goal-oriented, depending on the circumstances,than large-scale projects.»IP: Is there maybe an idea of a lesser density of usealready, meaning that the School could stay in this zone?Mäder: I already said during the tour: the owner, the SulzerCompany, follows the strategy of land sale, and the can-ton is not absolutely ready to take over thisbuilding be-cause in the case of permanent construction they wouldhave to respect the regulations for thermoisolation andhazardous waste disposal. Three projects are currentlyunder way in the zone ("Superblok by Adolf Krischanitzfrom Vienna at the Katharina-Sulzer-Platz; the Hall 52/53projects by Diener+Diener from Zurich; and the project

tlocrt 1. galerije

1st gallery floor plan

Intervju: Stephan Mäder, Visoka πkola za arhitekturu Winterthur | Interview: Stephan Mäder, Winterthur School of Architecture 31

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od njih bilo je davanje prostora na privremeno koriπtenje.Vlasnik od toga, doduπe, nije ostvarivao prihode koje bimogao ostvarivati iznajmljivanjem novosagraenih obje-kata. No, zato je u najkraÊem moguÊem vremenu stvo-rena raznolika ponuda i æiva urbana scena. S druge sustrane u novosagraenim podruËjima cijene relativnovisoke, pa se joπ ne osjeÊa æivost. Zatim postoje i posveodreene ciljne skupine koje si to mogu priuπtiti. Stano-vanje sa stilom ili prestiæni duÊani. Teπko je smjestiti pro-store za javnu namjenu u prizemlje, no to je na kraju kra-jeva odluËujuÊe za postizanje æivosti u cijeloj zoni. Onoπto se u adaptiranim prostorima dogaa automatski, unovosagraenim zonama teπko se postiæe. Jednostavnotreba vremena. U usporedbi s Zürichom, Winterthur jedugo bio u zaleu. Nije se razvijao tako dinamiËno. No,ta se Ëinjenica naknadno moæe pretvoriti u prednost. Biloje viπe vremena za razmiπljanje. Zahvati su bili manji, mo-gli smo reagirati primjereno situaciji, a to, ovisno o okol-nostima, moæe viπe voditi prema cilju, nego veliki projekti.»IP: Postoji li moæda veÊ danas neka ideja o neπtomanjoj gustoÊi koriπtenja, tako da πkola moæe ostati uovoj zoni?Mäder: Vlasnik, dakle poduzeÊe Sulzer slijedi strategijuprodaje zemljiπta, a kanton nije bezrezervno spremanpreuzeti ovu zgradu, jer bi se u sluËaju trajne izgradnjenaravno morali poπtovati i propisi o toplinskoj izolaciji,te ukloniti opasan otpad. U zoni su zasad aktualna triprojekta (“Superblok” Adolfa Krischanitza iz BeËa naKatharina-Sulzer-Platzu, projekt arhitekata Diener+Dieneriz Basela oko hale 52/53 i projekt Martina i ElisabethBösch iz Züricha na prostoru oko hala 180/189/191). Tisu projekti zapravo tako zamiπljeni da u njima bude smje-πtena i Visoka πkola za arhitekturu. Postoji interna ocjenatih projekata i Ëini se da je lokacija, na kojoj smo sada, usvakom sluËaju prikladna i kao buduÊa konaËna lokacijaVisoke πkole za arhitekturu Winterthur.»IP: To bi onda zahtijevalo mjere sanacije.Mäder: Po mom miπljenju neke bi prostorije trebalo na-novo sagraditi. Novi objekti mogli bi biti prikljuËeni nahalu na naËin da se veÊi dio hale zadræi.»IP: HoÊe li se onda dirati u strukturu hale ili Êe se to

by Martin and Elisabeth Bösch from Zurich for the areaaround the Halls 180/189/191). These projects were infact envisaged to accommodate the School of Architec-ture. There is an internal assessment of the projects andit seems that the location we are at now is in any casesuitable as the future final location of the Winterthur Schoolof Architecture.»IP: In that case, that would require renovation meas-ures.Mäder: To my opinion, some of the rooms need to berebuilt. The new facilities could be attached to the hall insuch a manner to keep most part of the hall.»IP: Is there going to be interference with the hall's struc-ture, or will you do this so that the hall will not be usedthroughout the entire year as an internal air-conditionedspace?Mäder: No, the use of the entire hall is foreseen. Some ofthe contents, more demanding in the sense of acoustics,comfort or technical equipment, might be located in thenew layers or construction parts.»IP: We can therefore picture it more like a concept oftransitional atmosphere than like an industrial hall with awinter coat.Mäder: Yes, precisely.»IP: In the history of architecture, temporary buildingsoften turn out to last much longer than originally planned,or they keep living as examples. Could the School of Ar-chitecture in a plant for boiler manufacturing also be-come one of such examples?Mäder: It should be like that, to my opinion, which will bevery hard to achieve because the government is associat-ing more and more with investors regarding construction.These investors, naturally, have fixed criteria of profit mak-ing, as well as orientational values for land and spacelease. Achieving maximum profit or, putting it differently,profit optimisation, definitely does not allow for such ex-periments. I think the problem is that the entire zone hasthe same cost effectiveness standard. Standard sizesdefine new spatial programmes and it is hard to workoutside of these rules and conditions. This is why we arelucky to use the Hall 180 for 17 years. When the hall is

popreËni presjek kroz ugradnju

cross section

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izvesti tako da se hala viπe neÊe koristiti cijelu godinukao unutarnji klimatizirani prostor?Mäder: Ne, zamiπljeno je da se koristi cijela hala. MoædaÊe neki sadræaji, koji su zahtjevniji u pogledu akustike,udobnosti i tehniËke opremljenosti, biti smjeπteni u noveslojeve ili graevne dijelove.»IP: Dakle, moæemo si to predoËiti viπe kao koncept snekom vrstom prijelazne klime, nego kao industrijskuhalu sa zimskim omotaËem.Mäder: Da, upravo tako.»IP: Privremene graevine u povijesti arhitekture op-stale su Ëesto mnogo dulje nego πto je bilo planirano ilii dalje æive kao uzori. Moæe li Visoka πkola za arhitekturuu pogonu za proizvodnju kotlova takoer postati jedanod takvih uzora?Mäder: Smatram da bi trebalo biti tako, πto Êe biti vrloteπko postiÊi, jer se vlasti u pogledu graenja sve viπeudruæuju s investitorima. Kod tih investitora, naravno, vri-jede fiksni kriteriji ostvarivanja prihoda, pa i orijentacijskevrijednosti za najam povrπina i prostora. Naravno, posti-zanje maksimalne dobiti ili, ako Êemo drugaËije, optimi-zacija dobiti viπe ne dopuπta ovakve eksperimente. Mi-slim da je problem u tome πto se za cijelu zonu utvrujeisto mjerilo kad je rijeË o isplativosti. Standardne veliËinedefiniraju nove prostorne programe i teπko je raditi izvantih pravilnika i uvjeta. Zato je moæda sretna okolnost πto17 godina moæemo koristiti halu 180. Kada hale viπe nebude, morat Êemo pronaÊi novo utoËiπte. Ne vjerujemda se svugdje moæe raditi na isti naËin. Prije bi se rekloda je rijeË o obrascu koji treba prilagoditi. Hala 180 nemoæe se realizirati joπ jednom na toËno isti naËin, zasi-gurno ne u nekoj optimiranoj novogradnji.»IP: Kada bi hala na kraju bila sruπena, biste li sa ©ko-lom i za ©kolu potraæili novu “ovojnicu”?Mäder: Da, neku staru tvornicu ili jednostavno neπtodrugo. Neπto πto se moæe “opet zaposjesti”. Moglo bi tobiti 10 kuÊa u starom dijelu grada ili 5 kuÊa u predgrau,ili klaonica, ili “Toniareal” u Zürichu. Zaπto ne bismo otiπliu Toniareal? Neki dijelovi naπe πkole ionako Êe biti tamosmjeπteni. To bi bilo neπto.»IP: Ova hala nije zaπtiÊena kao spomenik kulture?Mäder: Ne. Postignut je kompromis izmeu kantonalnogZavoda za zaπtitu spomenika, grada i vlasnika zemljiπta.ZajedniËki su definirali dijelove koje treba zaπtititi kaospomenike. To se prije svega odnosi na pogon 1, koji senalazi dalje u smjeru grada, odmah do kolodvora. Sma-tralo se da tamo prije svega treba zaπtititi ljusku, krajnjivanjski prsten zone. Na Katharina-Sulzer-Platzu postojevelike hale Ëije su dimenzije sliËne dimenzijama hale 180.One su pod zaπtitom. Ideja bi bila pronaÊi naËin koriπtenjatakvih prostora i u to ukljuËiti ©kolu, jer tamo zbog zaπtitenisumoguÊe sve namjene. Upravo to nudi projekt RogeraDienera. U vezi s halom 180, koja se nalazi u srediπnjojzoni 7, stalno postoji pritisak ostvarivanja veÊih prihoda,jer su ovdje moguÊe sedmerokatne stambene, poslovno-trgovaËke i uredske zgrade.»IP: Onda joπ jedino preostaje nada da Êe cijela πkolazajedno s ugraenim montaænim elementima biti sta-vljena pod zaπtitu. Problem bi tada bio rijeπen.Mäder: To je jedan od moguÊih scenarija, no ima ih joπ.Mi smo se prije kao predavaËi i arhitekti sami brinuli odobrobiti Visoke πkole za arhitekturu. To je danas moædapostalo teæe zbog razliËitih politiËkih instanci koje æelesudjelovati u procesu donoπenja odluka. Nije im dragokada sami za sebe radimo planove. No, sigurno Êemo ihraditi i dalje. Trudit Êemo se zadræati dobru lokaciju zanaπu πkolu ili pronaÊi novu lokaciju.

gone, we will have to find a new sanctuary. I do not be-lieve that general rules apply everywhere. I rather thinkthe pattern needs to be adjusted. The Hall 180 cannot berecreated one more time in the same way, definitely notthrough an optimised newbuilding.»IP: If the hall should be torn down in the end, wouldyou and your school look for a new "cover"?Mäder: Yes, an old factory, or simply something different.Something that can be "repossessed". That can be adozen old houses in the old part of the city, or 5 houses inthe suburbs, or a slaughterhouse, or "Toniareal" in Zurich.Why wouldn't we go to Toniareal? Some parts of ourschool will be located there anyway. That would be some-thing.»IP: This hall is not protected as a cultural site?Mäder: No. We reached a compromise between the can-tonal Institute for Heritage Protection, the city and the land-owner. They commonly defined the parts that need to beprotected as cultural sites, which refers primarily to thePlant 1, located further in the city direction, right by therailway station. Primarily the shell, the final external ringof the zone was declared as needing protection. Thereare large halls in Katharina-Sulzer-Platz whose dimensionsare similar to the ones of the Hall 180. They are protected.The idea was to find a way to utilise these spaces andalso involve the school, because not all purposes can beachieved because of the protection. That is precisely whatRoger Diener's projects offers. Regarding the Hall 180,located in the central zone 7, there is constant pressureof yielding bigger profit, because there is a possibility tobuild seven-storeys residential, commercial and officebuildings.»IP: The only thing left is to hope that the entire school,together with the built-in elements, would be placed un-der protection. Then the problem would be solved.Mäder: That is one possible scenario, but there are oth-ers. As lecturers and architects, we used to take care ofthe School of Architecture. Today, this might have becomeharder because of various political players who want toparticipate in the decision-making process. We will try tokeep this good location for our school, or find a new one.

Intervju: Stephan Mäder, Visoka πkola za arhitekturu Winterthur | Interview: Stephan Mäder, Winterthur School of Architecture

Arhitekt Stephan Mäder u prostoruHalle 180

Architect Stephan Mäder in Halle 180

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