MFDP Chapter 66

CHIP NEVILLE

0309Interviewside 1 and 2Chip Neville

white maleFDP volunteerVicksburg, Mississippi

As Well, 0.X., what I was saying was that I don't know how muchgood it will do really take any record of people's personalimpressions. Because in this way you can find out what peopleare saying, but to evaluate it and to really understand it,you have to have had I think, certain experiences most peoplein this country haven't had. You know, it's - it's probablylike understanding how a soldier feels, which is pretty hard tounderstand unless somebody's been a soldier. That there isa gulf between people who've been down here, even a littlewhile and people who haven't, and there's a big gulf betweenpeople who've been down here just a little while and peoplewho've been down here a long while, because one's experiencesindicate to one over and over again that, you know, societyis not for me, I'm alienated from society - to use a well-worn worfcd - and to understand this sense of alienation, onereally has - which is at the root of a lot of what people say,a lot of the bitterness that people have - one really musthave experiencecisome of the things that they have experienced.Qs We were starting to talk about objectivity, and you weregoing to say someij^ng about that.As Yeah, well objectivity - the key word in American societyis to be objective - there are two key words - to be moderateand objective. You can indict someone by calling him an exremist,you can indict someone by calling him - saying that he is notObjective, by saying that he is making a subjective judgement.But basically all opinions are made subjectively. And anyonewho has been in the experience where he goes somewhere and hisexperience is changed and so his opinions change, is going tohave to - is going to realize this. That real objectivity meansnothing, because men have to make decisions, so - and judgements,and the subjective content of a decision and a judgement isextremely important, and it's this subjective - question of sub-jectivity which is going to make communication between peoplewho have been in the movement, or between Negroes in the South,or Negroes anywhere in the country probably, and the whitemajority very, very difficult, if not virtually impossible,except on very, very specific things.

Qs Well do you see a need or a differenee,l should say,between a person who strives for objectivity, and one whoaccepts the subjective?

As Well, I see a difference between someone who is capa - whohas a critical mind, and is capable of criticizing what hethinks and what he does, andsomeone who doesn't. But I think

're

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that one can be trapped by striving after objectivity. One canbe trapped into thinking that one knows more than one does know,one can be trapped into never making a decision, and sittingall of one's life and reading the newspaper and reading aboutpeople being killed and people being beaten and saying, "Oh,isn't that terrible, but there's right and wrong on both sides."This is a basic attitude in American society which I think iswrong. I oughta know because I once held it. You know, thatyou can be so objective that everything is like a movie and younever get involved in it - well maybe like a television, thatwould be better, because it's possible to get involved in amovie sometimes, but, you know... Our society has reached thisstage - the state where people can watch someone gun down onon television or savagely whipped with a pistol, and they won'tmove a muscle, because it means nothing to them. And then - theyisolated. And then a girl can get stabbed in New York andthirty-seven people will see it, and not one will care to getinvolved, because he's being - standing apart from what ishappening. He is being objective about it. And I reallythink that's a fair use of the word objective, because frequentlyin the academic world one finds people being so terriblyobjective that they turn everything into into a joke, and reallybecause there's emotional content behind it, there's no whatthey say and what they think, there's no driving force forbetterment of mankind behind it. It's all something to impresssomeone 0r...

Qs Well, you're equating objectiveness with lack of involvement.Don't you think it's possible for someone to be objective in adifferent way, whereas they - I mean, at least I feel in whatwe're doing I feel involved, you know, with the civil rightsmovement, but I also feel there's a need not to say since I'mfor the civil rights movement, everything about it is good,and ther can't be anything wrong with it.

As Oh yeah, well this is - I mean, Ait's true that one canbe sympathetically critical of something. And if you want touse the word objective for that, then as long as we bothunderstand what the word objective means, that's fine. I'llbe glad to use the word objective for that if you want to,just so long as we define our terms beforehand, and tell every-

body what we mean by that. And most - many people - I'd saymost people in the movement are that way, but ah - then - youknow, you can talk to someone who is not sympathetic to themovement, and he can claim he's being objective, and becausehe's so sure he's being objective there will be absolutelyno possibility of communication.

Qs What difference do you see between your subjectivitytowards the civil rights movement, and let's say, RobertShelton's subjectivity toward the XXX? Nasty question.

As Well, ah - this is something which has on occasionbothered me. And I think the differnece -

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Qs My point is

As I know you understand your point. This is - this is whyI say true objectivity is impossible. Someone who's beingtruely objective would say, Moh, they're both the same. They'reextreme," possibly, or - and at some point you have to decidewhich is right and which is wrong and where are you.

Qs So it comes down to a question of right and wrong?

As Ah, well, I mean - basic right and wrong.Qs O.K. How do you determine the difference between basicright and basic wrong?

As Now you know that if I could answer that - I mean (laughter)Let me explain what I mean. I think that the movement standsfor needed social progress. I think the movement stand forrighting social injustice. I think the movement stands forgiving human beings dignity. And because it stands for thesethings and because I think it is ah - it is one of the few -it is one of the few forces in American society which reallyattempts to do something about these things, which is reallydoing something about achieving these things, I am for themovement. And this is what I mean when I say the movement isright and wrong. Now smetimes, themovement makes mistakesI guess, and some individuals do things which are wrong all thetime. You know, I mean after all, we're only human, and ah-under quite a bit of pressure sometimes. But, overall I wouldsay the difference between the movement and the Klan is that themovement wants cotton choppers in the delta to get #1.25 anhour. The klan is still - feels that Southern womanhood isbesieged, which is horse shit. The Klan now believes inlynching people, and believes in beating niggers and niggerlovers, and it believes in night riders who will shoot peopledown, it believes - it will even glorify these people, as in thecase ofMrs. Luzio. And the movement is either non-violent, orbelieves in, as in the case of the Deacons, in shooting back onlyin self-defense. Now I think this is a tremendous difference.The issue of - yes both the Klan and the movement break laws,but the movement does it - is non-violent, and the Klan is aviolent organization.

Qs Where did your subjectivity originate from?

As My subjectivity? We11...

Qs Why do you think one man - why do you think you end up inthe movement, why do you think another man ends up in theKlan?

As Well - because - because I moved from wishy-washy liberalismto the left - a little bit - I would still classify myself as

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basically a liberal - and someone on the Klan I suppose movesfrom ah - wherever he moves from to racism-,:and conservatism.I was never a racist, and this is one thing that certainlywould never have allowed me to join the Klan.

Qs What factors motivated you to move from wishy-washy liberalismto the left?

As Urn - well I ah - well, it was a long drawn out process.I grew up in the lily-white suburbs, you know, and neverreally had much contact with Negroes, and even when I wasin college I never did, because it was an exclusive easternschool. And when I went to graduateschool I met Negroes whoI became friends with, and so I startedlooking on them as humanbeings. This was the beginning of it. And, I mean, you know,theoretically I was in favor of the rights of man and was unpre-judiced, but actually I wasn't. And it took a couple of years,and finally - like most Americans I was appalled at the ideaof people breaking laws, and appalled at the idea of peoplemarching in the streets, and thought, "Oh, wouldn't it be niceif we could solve it under the table quietly and with moderation."And the thing which finally changed me was Reverand Reebgetting killed. Now it's interesting, when Jimmy Lee Jacksongot killed, in the first place I don't really think I wasaware of it, and evenif I had been, it wouldn't have moved meso much, because at that time I was not capable. And Ithink this is true of the srast majority of white Americans.I was not capable of looking on a Negro as a human being.At least a Negro in the South. I mean, Jimmy Lee Jackson,I could not have looked on as a human being really. But ReverandReeb I did, because he was close to me, I could identify withhim. And when got killed I was extremely upset, and I wasextremely upset at the ah - ah general recalcitrance of theSouth, and the fact that the South had been - you know, afterall, it was eleven years since the Supreme Court decision,or maybe twelve, I guess it was in what - fifty-four?Qs {54.As So it's eleven. And.

Qs Did you know Reverand Reeb?

As No, I didn't. I mean it was just someone who I couldidentify with, you see. I mean that - that - I'm not a religiousman, but I respect preachers to a certain extent, and thisupset me greatly. I keep saying to myself well here's a manwho thought so much of this that he died. Well, yeah, I wasbasically in favor of it, but I was a lot like that whitesuburbanite in the recent issue of Ebony, I think. Coupleof years ago. And ah - well, I was in favor of everythingbut demonstrations - no. (chuckle) You can go too far - thatkind of idea. I mean, I can remember when I was thinking

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that Reverend Reeb had given his life and that maybe it wastime for me to do something. And so I went to Montgomery,and I had some experiences there, like police driving motor-cycles into crowds.. .posses riding over me, and a friend ofmine, the guy I drove down with, got his head cut open bya club or cane - cane I guess it was—wielded by a posse-man.And I began to realize that...you know, that demonstrationswere the only answer because when there is so much...uh...when the police along with all the rest of society looksdown on people so much, then...you simply have to demon-strate.

Qs Do you think you feel guilty over the death of ReverendReeb?

As Possibly.

Qs It's the most recent issue..

As Pass it off as being a liberal instead of a guilty man,you mean? That's true...

Qs Do you think this is a reason that all through theMovement " " "As Uh, weil, the issue of guilt is a very difficult onebecause... in—I can only speak for myself on this—but it'sextremely difficult for me to figure out what I feel guiltyabout. Yes, I think I feel a certain amount of guilt.You know, I like to be proud of the country and...l think...I still think it's a great country to be in, but, but...uh...the treatment the Negroes received all this time pun-ishes it, and...

Qs ...your Identification with the whites or with thecountry 0r... What dows this guilt artse from?

As 0h... 1 think it's from my identification with thecountry—a basic sense of patriotism that...if, if—I don't,I mena, I don't feel personally identified with people whohave oppressed the Negro. I realize now that I was iden-tified with the people that didn't do a damn thing about it...the Negroes being oppressed, and. . .uh. . .but in thisrespect it's very embarrassing for somebody to come up andsay, you know, "Look yow the FBI stands by while peopleget beaten," you know, because I learned to believe inthe country... You can't just believe in the federalgovernment as a force for progress and protection of humanrights when people are getting beaten and the FBCE isn'tdoing anything about it, I mean, even though they have thepower. Uh ...that was a bad example, and there are numerousothers, but. . .there' s a conflicat between our ideals andour... our practice on racial issues, and... this—there's atremendous gap, and this is also an extreme degree of

0309-6hypocrisy... They hypocrisy, I think, Is as great as thehypocrisy—our hypocrisy in regard to the racial issue,I think, is as great in this country as was our hypocrisytoward sex in the Victorian age, and, you know, everythingis supposed to be coming up roses, and nobody really knowsit's not...but when someone really gets down to brass tacks,it comes out that things aren't coming up roses, and every-one feels embarrassed. And possibly the fact that all overthe country now people who want to feel that they're un-prejudiced very carefully set Negro apart is similar tothe way that they never say (inaudible) chicken because tosay (inaudible) chicken is too sensual.

Qs Well, as you express this sense of guilt, It doesn'tseem to be... 1 mean, it doesn't seem to be anything to beashamed of or to be guilty about in itself, so why do youthink that—well, you know, like the magazine articlemakes such a...we11, treats it as something to be made funof sort of.

As You mean by Louis Lomax.

Qs Yeah, I guess that was the.

As Well, uh...1, I guess Louis Lomax is a witty man, and hewrites that way. I don't think it is something to be madefun of, really. It's...the United States is a tremendouslycomplacent nation, because, I mean, you say they've beensuccessful.. .all through history we've been successful, andeverybody firmly believes that we're going to continue beingsuccessful, I think, basically, and. . .the. . .this can...andbecause we've been successful before, we begin to think thatwe're right, and that even though people may say it differ-ently, no one believes. . .everyone believes that the Americanway is the b^st way, and if only the rest of the world wouldfollow the American way, look h0w... 100k how better off therest of the world would be, and this not only extends to,I would say the liberal elements in the democratic party,whl&h have waged a long f ight. . .urn . ..starting with Rooseveltand within the context of the...2oth century... to createcertain institutions and social change. " .well, liberalopinion in America says that If only we can finish carryingout our program, everything will be great. Uh...and lookhow onwthe side of progress, I mean, look at the Medicarebill after all, look at the Civil Rights Bill, look at theVoting Rights Bill, look at the Soci^al Security, look atTVA and...you know, we are the pattern that stands for thepeople. We give the people what the people need. Uh...now as a result of... and I think it was because of thiscomplacency. . .that Mr. Lomax was attempting to puncture; hewas attempting to puncture the balloon. I mean, it's prettyeasy to be a liberal now, after a11...y0u can. " .there's alot of success—liberalism has been very successful in thiscountry and has created a lot of things which helped to turn

0309-7the depression and has created a lot of things. TVA is awonderful achievement, and the poverty program, and if peoplewill spend enough money on it, maybe it will be very success-ful. So... and I think, in order to come to grips with theracial question, the people who feel this kind of compla-cency have to be embarrassed about it.

Qs Well, why do you think...why does he attack the whiteliberal? Abat complacency, instead of the conservative ormoderate?

As Well, he feel the white liberal can be saved.

Qs ..to a certain degree.

As Probably he feels that the white liberal can be saved.

Qs But is he saving them, really?

As Well, you know, t0.. .y0u have to get the question ofrace out in the open, I think, in order to deal with it.You just can't afford to spare people's feelings too much.Besides which, I don't think he was saying anything parti-cularly insulting about the white liberal. The whiteliberal is an unhappy m4nd, and the white liberal believesvery strongly rin...in the things the Declaration of Inde-pendence says. Liberals firmly believed in social progress,and he has to understand that if... that sometimes by beingmoderate, he doesn't really serve the cause of progress.He has to live in fear of the fact that there may really beno moderate solution to the...in the sense that the PovertyProgram is a moderate solution. . .that is, you know, peopleworking together quietly, you know, quietly to improve theeconomy and make the pie bigger so everyone gets a biggerslice... Urn, n0w...1 think this is a fundamental flaw thatpeople in the Movement have with liberalism. I think aliberal would believe. . .the present system is pretty good,and we can just tinker with it a little bit, and it'll benearly perfect, and uh...1 think,,, I think someone who hasbeen in SNCC for a while, who has been with the Movementfor a while, doesn't do this because he's had so many ex-periences telling him that there is something wrong withAmerican society. Now, my experiences still have not con-verted me from the. . .liberalism. I'm a liberal, and I thinkthe poverty program is a great thing and...l don't distrustthe federal government. I know that... that many people inthe Movement do mistrust tte federal government, uh, almostas much as they distrust the state government because theycondeve of it as being part of the same power structure.And this is what I'm trying to get at. A Liberal is liableto see himself as championing right and justice, and he islikely to excuse playing around with Senator Eastiian4 in orderto get other things passed as being a necessity of politics.

0309-8Whereas if someone—if this playing around with SenatorEastifeani means that there's no minimum wage legislation forcotton choppers in the delta, urn, and so they get 30^ andhour, then the ...a man who works. ..a man who has worked onthe delta, or someone who's chopped cotton isn't going to letthe liberal off quite so lightly. I mean, they're not goingto excuse him for playing politics because he's playingpolitics with people's lives. Now, this illustrates thedilemma we're in. If you extended the minimum wage tocultural laborers, uh, you know, it wouldn't benefit every-body, and it would give people a decent living—cottonchoppers a decent living, or at least a much better onethan they have now; it would increase the amount of moneyfloating around and would probably start some sort of boomin Mississippi. Even the whites would benefit, but...uh...and there certainly have been people--liberals —who havetried to do this and failed— tried to extend the minimumwage to agricultural labor. It's because, I think, that theliberal still feels himself besieged by the forces of con=servatism and reaction, and he conceives of himself as*fighting for right and justice, and part of Mr. Loman'sarticle says now he's In the driver's seat; now he's inpower, and so it's his responsibility to clear up many ofthese things, and he is really no longer beseiged, no longerable to excuse social iniquity on the grounds that he triedand wasi't able to do anything about it because he didn'thave the power, because todya he probably does have thepower. And the Lomax 's article—if I can remember correct-ly—the point of it was that the moderate solutions had maybeten years to work, and if they won't work, then thingsmight get pretty bad.

Qs Because the new militant generation is going to takeover.

As Well, I don't think it's a case of the new militantgeneration taking over; I think it's a case 0f...uh...1don't think this ten years is going to... is very accurate.I think we have considerably longer than that, but let'sface it, you cannot continue to keep people in bondage in-definitely and expect them to love you. You can't keep...you can't give people the wrong end of the stick all theirlives and not expect something to happen eventually ...that .. .our lovely society is going to be disrupted if we do notmanage to secure a large measure of social justice forNegroes.

Qs What do you think is the central difference between aliberal and a radical?

As We11...

Q s ...expediency . . .

0309-9As Well, no. I think, I mean, the radicals don't do any-thing that's possible to solve any of the problems throughfederal programs and federal action. They don't believeit's really possible to solve very much with the...withinthe existing context of politics as it is in America today.Uh...well, you know, it's hard to tell. I mean, when youcome down to concrete issues lots of times, I mean, I per-sonally agree with many people who would be called radical,but in theory I guess I don't. I would never say that thePoverty Program is useless as someone who's a radical might.I mean, he would just score... he might just think it wasof no use to anyone because he would claim that it's hypo-critically buying people off, and that just isn't going towork because he would claim that it really doesn't come togrips with the central issues facing us. Well, I think thePoverty Program is a good idea. On the other hand, youknow, he and I would agree that it is. " .probably necessaryto build a new populist party in many portions of thecountry in order to represent the people when they want tobe represented.

Qs How would you approach it from anjeconomic viewpoint? Imean, does it make a difference that way too?

As Urn, well, I don't think ftreally has to do with econ-omics. I mean.. .remember Harry Truman tried to nationalizeUnited Steel during a steel strike. People who are liberalscan believe in a certain degree of state ownership 66 indus-try, and government ownership of industry, however, I thinkit comes down to the fundamental issue of the plight ofmodern man and whether you think our society as a whole isworth anything and how much you're willing to put up withthe stupidities of bureaucracy as they exist today and whatyou're willing to be treated as a cipher, well, as a nameon a college transcript or as a figure in somebody's statis-tic...book of statistics, as a casualty figure in Vietnam,maybe, or. ..as. . .someone on the 16ft feels apalled at thefact that the president of the University of Illinois canrefer to students as units of production or something. . .someabsurd phrase. I think he calls them units of productionand how he want to get as many units of production possibleout of the University of Illinois because that's how youmm an efficient factory. Uh. . .possibly someone whoclassified himself as a liberal might be unhappy about this,hut he would put up with it because he believes that thesystem is basically feood, and everyone is going to have agood slice of the pie.

Qs Earlier you said that people in SNCC are alienated, andthen you said that the alienaaion is part of the definitionof radicalism.

As I think it is.

it

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Qs Do you think...would you call SNCC a radical group?

As Uh...in the sense that I just defined it as the peoplewho are alienated from society as it presently is. Peoplewho feel that society is rofcten, that there's somethingbasically wrong with our society. People who feel that oursociety is apathetic and really incapable of meeting thechallenges that face it, fascist. And people who are con-vinced that this cannot be changed within the context ofexisting. . .political and social institutions, so that theseinstitutions themselves must be changed. Now you see, Iwant to say right here...

Q s . . . ( inaudible ) . . .As Just a minute. You've got to be careful here becauselots of people think they want to overthrow the government,and I don't really think that's true. When people talk aboutthis sort of thin&, I think they're talking about a pro-cess of gradual change or fairly slow change. It's, it's...how does one...well, you see, here we have the fact thatpeople in the Movement nan act just like politicians whenthey come down to some concrete issue. It's what I alludedto earlier when I said that...on concrete issues very oftenpeople in the Movement and people who are liberals willagree, and you know, exactly on what to do as long as itdoesn't involve direct action. I don't think there are verymany liberals who are in favor of direct action like sit-insand demonstrations, but...voter registration, now, is apre-requisite to political power. If you want to changesociety through political powerathen you have to registervofeers. All right, so people go around registering voters,and a lot of people in the Movement who are unhappy aboutthe emphasis that is placed on registering voters, and theyview the problem as a problem—I think everyone does—asa problem or organizing a community into a political entity,and then actually giving it the means of political power,that is, the vote is only one small step in this. One alsomust create iHstitutions like the New England town meetingwhere people can get together and talk about their problamsand carry out the discourse.

Qs What about—getting bakk to the white liberals —thepsychology of the white liberal —in that cartoon by Pfeiffer,the one that was in the (inaudible name) —it was reallybiting.

As I don't remember it.

Qs There was a Negro speaking to a group 0f...

As Oh, yeah, yeah. ..(chuckle) .. .Qs ...and he said, "I hate you as a liberal and I revile you.

0309-11Yeah, yeah. ..( chuckle) .. .

Q " Please come down next Tuesday."As I don't know, you know.

Qs Is that a masochistic guilt feeling or what?

As Well, I think that...

Qs ...for a white liberal...

Qs I think the Pfeiffer is talking about New York society,which is intellectual society, which is something I'm notreally familiar with. I think...it was... it was biting allright, and it hit home to a certain extent. Liberals like tofeel guilty sometimes... (end of side one) I want to getback to something I've wanted to during this whole inter-view and haven't been able toreally say, and I think I'vefigured out how to really say it now. Urn..the...a radicalwould. . .someone on the left today, as I understand it, wasgoing to absolutely appalled by the fact that people in theUnited Ssates today are apathetic. We don't have institutionslike the New England town meetings, that people. . .well, mayvote, but they'll leavw the decision by and large up tothe people they 're...up to the representatives, and... trustthese people to muddle through for them. Now, the...aliberal is perfectly happy with the situation as long as thedecisions are what he would call the right ones, which meansthat everybody gats an ever- increasing slice of the economicpie, and I think that's the difference. It's not so mucha fight over how big a slice of the pie we should get. It'sa fight over what is to be the whole texture of politicallife in America in the future. Are people to... are peopleto run their own affairs as much as possible, or are they toleave it up to experts? Or people who have been chosen bythem?

Qs Well, then it's sort of a quest for individualism...what you would class as radicalism...

As Not individual lsm. ..this is a quest for politicalcommunity.

Qs Political involvement?

As No, political community. Political involvement canmean going out and working very hard for John Doe to getelected to the House of Representatives, but this is adifferent thing from having. . .from having a town meetingwhere people decidedthat they're going to, well, keep thelake from being silted up or something, and I think thatthe liberal reaction was, "well, it's terrible that lakesget silted up; let's have the federal government do some-

0309-12thing about it, and we'll fix up the lakes for the peoplemaybe." Someone on the left would say, "It's terrible thatthe lake gets silted up; let's create a political communityso that they'll demand that something be done about it."This is the best way that I can express what I think is thedifference.

Qs (inaudible)

As Well, see, this is a difficult question. I think ano-ther characteristic of the left from people I've talked to,is that they don't really care which gets the lake cleanfastest. It's the question of people. ..of forming thepolitical community. They're willing to accept the lakenot getting clean quite so fast in order for the principlethat the people will decide for themselves what to do.

Qs Wereas the liberal wotid rather get the job done thanhave the people do it.

As Well, he wants to get it done as fast as is humanlypossible. Now, I don't really —this may be unfair in thatcertain things are never going to be done unless peopledemand it. Agricultural are not going to get the minimumwage legislation extended to them unless the demand it.Uh, the civil rights program would not have occurred—d>twould not be in force today ifpeople hadn't demanded it.There are still lunch counters in Vicksburg which are deseg—segregated, and these will continue to be segregated as longas these people tolerate it, so that... the basic difficultyin the liberal position is that you can't have an^elite,even if it's an elite of counter- intellect. . .Bedding thingsfor people and really satisfying them all the time becauseeventually power corrupts, and absolute power corruptsabsolutely, to finish the qu6te.

Qs But you still class youself a liberal.

As Well, yes, because I'm not really any... l don't believethat power has corrupted the system yet. I dont believethat power has corrupted the liberal end of the Democratic.Party yet, and someone who was on the student left wouldbelieve that power has already corrupted...

Qs Is that citing the issus. . .pardon me... Do you thinkthat the radical solution would be more...which do you feel...

As I feel that it's absolutely necessary to create a poli^tical community in the country, and I think that some thingsare so imperative that they have to be run the fastest waypossible.

Qs Like what?

As We11...

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Qs (inaudible)

As There's a good example. I mean, I'm not in fa^or 0f...I'm not opposed to the idea of ...( inaudible) .. .doing thingsof his, and I don't think it's going to work in the longrun that a political community does have to be developedand that things—I've already mentioned some of them—aregoing to come to pass until a political community is devel-oped...Among people here in Mississippi for instance.There are other things in the North which will never come topass unless a political community is developed there.

Qs You speak of the student left. What sort of connectiondo you see between the student left and the Civil RightsMovement?

As Well, I'm really not qualified to answer that questionon the grounds that I'm not raally a member of the studentleft.

Qs What is the student left, or what would you consider itto be?

A: Exactly what I have been describing as radicalism.

Qs Are you a student?

a s xes .Qs At...?

As The University of Illinois. I'm a graduate student there.Urn.. .there's an essential element of humanism in it... in thestudent left as I understand it. How was I. ..( inaudible) .. .It comes down to the fact that people don't want to betreated as a name on a transcript. They want to be thoughtof as human beings. And in, in our society as it is todp^c,in return for matenal abundance, someone on the studentleft is liable to think that he's learned a great dealabout the predicament of humanity. . .that is, that he'sallowed bureaucracies to develop which de-humanize him,in the same sense that in The Trial the man is de-humanized,in Kafka's The Trial. Uh. . .that. . .l dont think it's inthe book, but in the movie there was a very good scene ofsomebody sitting in anoffice with just millions of peoplearound him looking almost the same, doing exactly the samething, and it's sort of assembly-line de-humanization whichhas been extended to many spheres in American life, includingeven love, because Playboy magazine gives us a prototype,you know, of what's acceptable in love, you know, 36-24--something-or-other, -36.Qs What do you think. . .perhaps we should talk about thefeoals and potentialities for success of radicalism. Do you

0309-14think it's gaining success, or do you think it's just anideal? Will its goals always be ideal, should I say?

As Well, I think that the possibility fo creating politicalcommunity is. ..this can be met with success. Well, thereis another characteristic of liberalism, that the liberaldistrusts the great unwashed. . .the people... you know, heidentifies himself with their welfare, and- to a certainextent I do too, which is why... this is why I have to classi-fy myself as a liberal. I don't have ultimate faith inpeople. I think man is inherently eve ll, and even if wedevelop these institutions, I think we have to put lots ofchecks on them.

Qs Someone we were talking to said that part of the conceptof leaving decisions to the local people was also trustingthem and being willing to accept their decisions eventhough they may be wrong.

As Yes, well, this is a very important part of the movement.Uh, although actually I think the local peopla are rightabout as much of the time as anybody else would be, but...for the simple reason that they know more about the economics,but ...Qs ...the problems that concern the country as a whole.

As Well, yeah, so here's. . .suppose you get a question abouteconomics, suppose you get a question of econ6mics, I mean,what do we do to reform the national monetary system?Now, I think this is something that should be left up toexperts. There are people I've met in SNCC who don't thinkit should be left up to experts.

Qs What about something that's ef a little more generalconcern, like Vietnam? Some people say it should be leftup to experts.

As Well, here...the people down here—well, you wee, theyagree with me, so I think they have a (chuckle) much betterviewpoint on the war than people in...than the majority ofAmericans. But the people down here, a lot of them, areexpressing great concern for what's being done to fehe peoplein Vietnam. They're... l mean, especially guys who havebeen overseas in Europe or in Korea. I mean, they knowthat if you're going to fight a war, you're going to tearthe country up, and they can identify with the Vietnamesepeople and the, you know, the peasant who has to sufferbeing bombed and having people fight battles over hisvillage because they're poor, and they've had to suffer alot, whereas the...the white middle-class American isn'treally so capable. . .isn't capable of sypathizing and identi-fying with the Vietnamese peasant. I've hear guys say atteach-ins, "Well, what's the matter if a few people getkilled or not. It's a question of strategy and..."; nobody

0309-15down here would say that—or not very many of the MississippiNegroes—and this is something that's to me very beautifuland very commendable and something which we, white middle-class Americans could well emulate. We could show...wb shouldshow more concern for people being kikled. We should showmore concern for the ravages and the wast c of war, and realconcern in that we would be willing to limit our actions toa certain extent, like to getting out of Vietnam, even ifit means that Vietnam is taken over by the Viet-cong,simply on those grounds because it simply isn't somethingthat...you know, a life of death matter for the country.Fundamentally, I believe that if a country is In a life- or-death situation, it has the right to defend itself, but Idon't—I think that beyond that, you know, we should onlygo if we're really asked. Now, if the Russians rolledover Berlin, the people in Berlin I think would reallywant us to come to their rescue., although this is mypersonal opinion from having been in Berlin... But.. Idon't really think the people in South Vietnam really wantus to come to their rescue.. I think they're tired ofbeing rescued, because being rescued means that yourchildren get killed

Qs Do you think perhaps the difference between SouthVietnam and Berlin perhaps is the difference in politicalawareness... Do you think this has anything to do with it?

As Of the people?

Qs Of the people.

As Oh, it's... it's the difference between "" between twodifferent societies, between people who... are prosperousand very much like white amer loans, and people who aredesperately poor, and just coming inb6 their own, onlyemErging, just emerging from colonialism. It's the differenceof.,

of.,

of,, two thousand years of Western culture versus. . two thousand years of Eastern culture. " . and fundamentallyit gets down to the difference between being wealthy andindustrialized and being poor and not industrialized... ormaybe just between wealthy and being p00r... People in WestBerlin are faii?ly well-off... for them, I mean, freedom is.,freedom and democracy are real things, because they have itnow. In South Vietnem freedom and democracy aren't realthings because they have never had it and they don't haveit now and ... they're suffering because people are fightinga war over their country. And it's absurd to assume theywill have freedom and democracy. Freedom and democracydoesn't really mean very much "" in that sort of a con-... inthat sort of a context. It only ... it only.. I think, i?othe average man, it only means something if it deliversthe goods., if it really helps to., right social wrongs, ifit helps to., better the lot of the common man., and... thenwe have to face the fact that the Germans .. hate the Rusians

0309-16and., the .. seem to be pretty much in favor of our beingthere, and the people in South Vietnam maybe beaause theydon't tell us when the Viet Cong are snaaking up, maybethey're in favor of Ho Chi Minh... It would seem that way,from the way the war's been going.

Qs Well, do you think t^at Southerners... or Negroes, NegroSoutherners, tend to ..How politically aware do you thinkthey are, do you think they get their views more from thepeople around them, with whom theycomelneontact , such asSNCC people, or do you think that it's really a case ofindependent thinking?

As We 11... it depends on the generation and on theindividual.. Boy, I've met some very sharp people down here."" Add also there's., there are many people who aren'tpolitically aware., and this is something the Movementtries to do., to make them politically aware., there, there."" well, maybe I shouldn't say politically aware, maybe Ishould say afraid, Idon't really know which it is, andbecause I'm white, it's very difficult to find out. "" Thereis a danger, though, in using the word politically aware,that is, one is going to think, well, look, those whohave college educations are politically aware, and., so reallywhat we want to do is educate everyone, and., and that wouldlead us to despise people who don't have as much educationas we have ... and., that, I think, is extremely dangerous.Qs I wanted to talk about something that, we got in adiscussion,about a week ago about, some of the people inSNCC are cry.. the dogmatic radicals, and I wondered if you'dcome in contact with any of those sort, you know, youmentioned that thought the (loual?) people whould decideabout the international monetary system...

As We11... now, the man who said this I wouldn't call adogmatic raidcal, he's an extreme-.... I mean.. I have alotof respect for him... but.... and maybe he wasn't., when Isay I wouldn't consider him dogmatic, 1., my impressionwas that he was capable of criticizing himself and thisposition.... fully understood the consequences of it...

Qs Um-hmm. But I mean just in general..

As We11... this... my experience has mainly been confinedto Vicksburg, which is by and large a white project, becausethe Negro guys on it all went to work on Project Headstartthis summer, and., they're in jailw .|r?or most of the timewe were segregated by the Jackson cops... So.. I reallyhaven't had enough close personal contact with., what youwou33d call, I suppose, what you would call a dogmatic

0309-17radical (unintelligible phrase) to really evaluate it..

Qs What about among the rest of the white volunteers inthe project or just, not even, you know, in this project,but that you know, in the student (work?), say?

As Uh... well.. "The Leftists I have Known"(?), whateverthat is!

Qs .... a group like SDS, for instance, what would youthink of SDS?

As Well., you know, this shows you how far I am from theswing of things, that I don't know many people in SDS,except here in this project, possibly, I don't even knowthat, and., it . . I know that we have been hung up on thisproject at times, we have ... been incapable of doingthings because many people on it firmly believe that weshouldn't do something until the local people said we should.,but somehow the local people always said that we should,and we went ahead with it anyway., but we didn't do itquite as fast... And since our objective here is to builda political community, this was probably best. The NAACPis very strong in Vicksburg, it has a very fine voterregistration drive going, so it's really not tremendouslyimportant that we go out andregister people as soon as,you know, on the first day that we... it wasn't importantthat we go out and register voters on the first day wegot here., although every little bit helped... we couldafford to wait And in places where ther's a very strongmovement, to let the people speak works very well.

Qs (What about?) back at youcoown campus... are you just...which year are you in graduate school(?)?

As This 'll be my fourth.

Qs Your fourth. What field are you in?

As Math.

Qs First math major we've talked to.As There's another one, a guy from Australia, in HolmesCounty. " "Qs Bob?

As Bob, yeah.

0309-18Qs(?l've got another question to ask you.) Do you feelanything odd about being a math major and being down here?

As Well..

Qs Do you feel that it's odd that there aren't more mathmajors?

As Well, you see, Western society is so compartmentalizedthat., what you just said show that... No, I don't thinkthat it hurts.

Qs What we should ask is how you got... you know., how amath major..

As Well, now, I mean..

Qs Despite the compartment alizat ion. . .As Well, now., now lots of people I know, you know, readnewspapers, even if they're in science, and "" oh, this iswasting the tape, but alot of people in mathematics...are not scientists, they really drifted intfa mathematicsthrough the liberal arts, so it's not that... thepeople ther^are frequently politically aware. . . And atthe University of Illinois the math department... doesmore for causes like civil rights than any other depart-ment... I don't know why, it seems odd, but..

Qs It's true that math is different from something likeengineering.... (I think... they're kind of interested ?)..

As But., but what 1.... well, go ahead..

Qs (Mumbling between two interviewers.) Maybe you couldtalk about, just go into your own background, howyou did, you know, become involved, to make this

As I already... described that earlier, didn't If WithReverend ( ? ) and (?)....?

Qs But this sounds like... just/the straw that put youover, wasn't it.... (?)

As Um-hmmm.

Qs Were there.... what sorts of influences tip to thattime Had you been a member of a civil rightsorganization?

As No.

0309-19

Qs Were either of your parents?

As No. My

father.,

at least before I came down here,I believe, was a segregationist... and In fact made hisltving off the system of segregation....

Qs What does he dot

As He 5e115.... he promotes segregated cemeteries, andmy mother, I believe, wa§7Y9yFavor of the idea that allmen are created equal, and...

Qs What (place?) are you from?

As Washington D.C., I was raised (in there?)... infairfax County in Virginia, which is a suburb ofWashington.

Qs Where did you go to 5ch001.... I mean, didn't you...say you were just going to graduate school in Illinois?

As I went to Yale.your views went through

Qs Do you think/; [ a big change whenyou were in college, undergraduate?

As N0... because, at that time... Ssile University wasa very conservative place ... and.. I .. no, it was hardenough just being a liberal. My views went through aMy views went through achange when 1., went to the Midwest.

Qs How old are you?

As 24.

Qs Are either of your parents politically active at all?How do they stand?

As Well, my father... well, they're both staunch Democrats.And my father used to work for Senator (o 'Mahoney?) . . . hewas an- .Assistant Councilor on the Anti-Trust and MonopolySubcommittee of the Senate... and before that he wasan. anti-trust lawyer in the Justice Department.

Qs And now he., promotes segregated....?

As It's a long story.. I don't really feel like goinginto that...

Qs Okay.

0309-20As The history of my family's economic misfortunes...

Qs He is a segregationist?

As Uh-huh. (yes)

Qs Did you go to high school in the Washington area?

As Yeah.

Qs Whereabouts?

As Fairfax High School.

Qs Is that a very liberal, liberal....

As Well, I mean, it was... it was a political mecca.

Qs Were you a minority of one, a minority of the groups....(partially inaudible) ?

As When I was in high school I was in the minority........... The minority of people in high school who aresincerely interested in something... (unintelligible phrase)learning, which was... and., maybe things have changed sinceI was a boy, but, when I was a boy, not many people reallycared whether they learned., in college.... I don't know,I wasn't., that much of a minority, I was just a little bitmore on the liberal side than my roommates, for instance.

Qs (Should? Did?) we talk about the Movement in the capital,(in the ' capital before?)?

As Did we talk about it? I don't know.

Qs What is the Movement as opposed to the Civil RightsMovement?

As Well, I don't really know if there is a Movement asopposed to the Civil Rights Movement. Uh, yeah, there'sSDS I guess. .v.

Qs I mean, the term Movement as opposed to Civil RightsMovement .As Well, I think

Qs ..Do you think that the two are the same?

As It's possible that as a result... that the war in

0309-21Vietnam will create a pacifist, a very strong pacifistmovement in this country... and experiences in Northernslums may., well, this is., well, anything involved withslums is intimately involved with civil rights, and cantbe.... because in many, so many slums are Negro... slums.,but, I mean, in the North the Movement reaches white peopletoo in the slums. I don't know how effectively it reaches...reaches them, I've never worked in the North., but..I guess both CORE and SDS.. have done work among whitepeople from Appalachia who migrated to the North.

Qs Do you plan to stay down here this year?

As No, I'm going back

Qs Do you plan to do any more civil rights work in thefuture .(than you have In the past?)?

As Yeah.

Qs (Are you coming back down here?)?

As Next summer, very possibly. That's, you know, that'sdifficult to say... What I wanted to say about., studyingmathematics was that.. I think that... I think that the.,my personal view of what the country should be.,like, well, you should have people who are doing what they'redoing now, only they should also be involved enoughpotake time off to work on other things, like politicson a very, on a very personal level... by that I mean,willing to., enter things similar to the Civil RightsMovement, willing to take direct action, willing to becivilly disobedient if that is necessary. And I supposethat will always remain (an Ideal ?)!

Qs I suppose. (Oh, we've got a physics major ? rest unin-telligible), (two unintelligible sentences betweeninterviewers.)