Charles Chapman Deposition
169
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR HENDRY COUNTY, FLORIDA WILLIAM STEPHENS, CAROL GREY and KEELY CINKOTA, Plaintiffs, vs. Case No. 2014-CA-633 HENDRY COUNTY, Defendant. ___________________ DEPOSITION OF CHARLES CHAPMAN DATE TAKEN: August 18, 2015. TIME: 10:00 a.m - 2:37 p.m. LOCATION: Barnes Reporting 150 South Main Street Suite 2D LaBelle, Florida 33935 REPORTER: Renee' R. Miller, Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida at Large. _____________________________________________________ BARNES REPORTING 150 S. Main Street, Suite 2D LaBelle, Florida 33935 Phone 863-675-7600 Fax 863-675-7601 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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Transcript of Charles Chapman Deposition
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR HENDRY COUNTY, FLORIDA
WILLIAM STEPHENS, CAROL GREY andKEELY CINKOTA,
Plaintiffs,
vs. Case No. 2014-CA-633
HENDRY COUNTY,
Defendant.___________________
DEPOSITION OF CHARLES CHAPMAN
DATE TAKEN: August 18, 2015.
TIME: 10:00 a.m - 2:37 p.m.
LOCATION: Barnes Reporting 150 South Main Street Suite 2D LaBelle, Florida 33935
REPORTER: Renee' R. Miller, Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida at Large.
_____________________________________________________
BARNES REPORTING150 S. Main Street, Suite 2D
LaBelle, Florida 33935Phone 863-675-7600Fax 863-675-7601
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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
For the Plaintiffs:
JUSTINE THOMPSON COWAN, Attorney at Law, Cowan Consulting For Nonprofits, PLLC P.O. Box 533507 Orlando, Florida 32852-3507 e-mail: [email protected]
KELSEY EBERLY, Attorney at Law, Animal Legal Defense Fund 170 E. Cotati Avenue Cotati, California 94931
For the Defendant:
MARK F. LAPP, County Attorney, Hendry County Attorney's Office P.O. Box 2340 LaBelle, Florida 33975 e-mail: [email protected]
Also present: Margaret Emblidge
_____________________________________________________
I N D E X
PAGE
Direct Examination by Ms. Eberly 3
Cross-Examination by Mr. Lapp -
Redirect Examination by Ms. Eberly -
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E X H I B I T S
NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
1 Hendry Co. Code of Ordinances 1-53-2 50
2 Copy of pages from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Eleventh Edition 75
3 Copy of pages from Webster's New World Dictionary Second Concise Edition 76
4 Copy of Animal Husbandry definition from dictionary.reference.com 77
5 Copy of Animal Husbandry definition from thefreedictionary.com 78 6 Copy of Animal Husbandry definition from Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary 79
7 Copy of Animal Husbandry definition from Random House Dictionary, dictionary.com 84
8 Copy of Animal Husbandry definition from Mirriam-Webster 85
9 Memo dated March 23, 2015 109
10 E-mail dated July 23, 2013 125
11 Hendry County Planning & Zoning Department letter dated July 23, 2013 132
12 E-mail dated April 26, 2014 140
13 Hendry Co. Press Release April 28, 2014 143
14 E-mail dated May 2, 2014 147
15 Statement from Primera dated May 1, 2014 148
16 Hendry County Press Release May 1, 2014 152
17 E-mail dated July 22, 2013 154
18 Memo dated July 10, 2015 164
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* * * * * * *
CHARLES CHAPMAN,
the witness hereinbefore named, being first duly
cautioned and sworn or affirmed to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Kelsey Eberly, I am an attorney
representing the plaintiffs in this case, Keely
Cinkota, Billy Stephens, and Carol Grey. And would
you please state your name for the record and spell
your name?
A. Sure. Yes, ma'am. Charles, C-H-A-R-L-E-S,
Chapman, C-H-A-P-M-A-N.
Q. And could you give me your current
address?
A. It is 1244 Captain Hendry Drive, LaBelle.
Q. And how long have you lived at that
address?
A. Almost a year now.
Q. Okay. And before that, did you also live
in Hendry County?
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A. Yes, ma'am. I did.
Q. And where did you live?
A. 864 County Road 78, LaBelle.
Q. Great. Thanks. Before we go into the mete
of it, I'm going to just sort of layout a few ground
rules.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever participated in a deposition
before?
A. Yes, ma'am. I have.
Q. So are you familiar with sort of the way it
works?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. We'll just go over this briefly, then.
A. Okay.
Q. So I'll ask you a series of questions,
you'll answer them under oath, the court reporter
will take down everything that we say. It's crucial
that you hear and understand my questions, so please,
you know, if you don't hear me or understand what I'm
saying, ask me to repeat it.
A. Okay.
Q. Please use yes and no, rather than uh-huh
or nodding your head.
A. Okay.
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Q. We'll try not to cut each other off.
Normally we can anticipate what the other person may
be saying, so I'll try to let you finish your
sentence, and if you would do the same for me.
A. Certainly.
Q. If you remember additional information that
you'd like to add later, you can let me know, and
I'll -- we can talk about that. If you think of a
document that might help your testimony, please let
me know.
A. Okay.
Q. So as I ask questions, Mr. Lapp will have
the right to make objections. Those are just being
made to preserve on the record, and your -- you
answer my question after he makes his objection,
unless he specifically tells you not to answer
because of privilege.
A. Okay.
Q. And I don't mean to be intrusive or
embarrass you, but I have to ask if you've ever been
convicted of a felony?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Okay. Are you suffering from any illness
or taking any medication that would prevent you from
giving your full and best testimony today?
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A. No illnesses, no medications; however, I do
need to make you aware of two things: One, I don't
think it will be a problem in this room because I'm
hearing you just fine, but I have a slight hearing
impairment.
Q. Okay.
A. Too many years as a rock musician, ringing
in the ears, sometimes it's hard for me to hear what
you said, so I may have to ask you to repeat it,
because it gets muddled when I hear.
Q. Of course. Yeah.
A. So far the acoustics are pretty good in
this room. I can hear fairly well, but I'll just let
you know I may need that accommodation.
Q. Okay.
A. The second thing is I have a slight speech
impediment, due to no feeling on the right half of my
tongue.
Q. Okay.
A. So if I muddle something to you and you
can't understand it, please ask me to repeat.
Q. Okay.
A. Because sometimes I'll be speaking, I think
I'm annunciating clearly, and I'm not.
Q. Okay. That makes sense, and I'll try to
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speak clearly and slowly.
A. All right. Thank you.
Q. Is there anything else I should be aware of
that would prevent you from --
A. No, ma'am. There's no other medications,
illnesses or things, other than just those two little
bumps in the road.
Q. Great. If you need a break at any point,
just let me know, and we can take a five, ten minute
break. We'll be breaking for lunch a little bit
later.
A. Okay. Wonderful.
Q. Okay. What did you do today to get ready
for this deposition?
A. Had a brief conversation with my attorney
in preparation for the deposition, but other than
that, that's it.
Q. So did you review any documents?
A. Just a couple of things that he showed me
from some e-mails that I had sent that were part of
the Discovery phase for this case.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me what you reviewed?
A. There was one memo in particular that was a
draft memo that I had asked for comment that had to
deal with projects that could be controversial. And
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we just had a brief discussion about that just to
remind me that I did send that in March.
Q. Okay.
A. Nothing more, nothing less.
Q. Okay. That memo that was sent in March
concerned controversial facilities?
A. Controversial projects, in general. It was
at a point I was having a very frustrated morning. I
remember that morning very clearly. Not only had it
to deal with the matters of this case, but we had a
landfill project that was coming up, we had been in
court for an FPL case. There was a lot of stuff that
came to a bulkhead, and I drafted up a letter in my
temperament and sent it off as a draft, and about an
hour later, I thought better of it, because it was a
decision I was making out of anger, and it wasn't
within my authority to do so.
Q. Okay. I'd like to wait and talk about that
a little later.
A. Okay.
Q. Once we have gotten a little further along,
but any other documents that you reviewed for
preparation?
A. I had access to documents, but to be honest
with you, I've been so busy, I didn't get a chance to
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open up the e-mails to even take a look at them, to
be honest.
Q. Okay. Did you bring any documents with you
today?
A. Nothing on my person.
Q. Other than Mr. Lapp, have you spoken with
anyone about this case?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Okay. None of the County Commissioners,
anything?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And I meant in preparation for this
deposition.
A. I assumed that, ma'am.
Q. Have you read any news articles or news
reports about the case?
A. I see every news article that comes out.
There are -- we have a Google alert set up for Hendry
County just as a general blog, and I see those on my
phone consistently. So I see a lot of the news
articles that come out, right, wrong, or indifferent,
editorial or otherwise.
Q. Do you read them?
A. I typically don't, to be honest with you.
I have a person in my office that handles that, and
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she then reports to me if there's any action items
that I need to take care of related to relations with
my Board members, or if we need to prepare a response
statement.
Q. Are you aware of any articles in particular
that you paid attention to especially?
A. None that I recall, ma'am. Nothing is
sticking out in my mind as being something that I've
been dwelling on or analyzing, so no.
Q. Okay. Where did you go to high school?
A. Crestview Senior High School in Crestview,
Florida, Okaloosa County. Go Bulldogs!
Q. When did you graduate?
A. 1999. May of 1999.
Q. And after high school, did you attend
college or serve in the military?
A. I went directly to college at the Florida
State University for undergraduate and graduate
studies.
Q. And what did you study in college?
A. I have a Bachelor's of Science Degree in
Education, with specific study in Recreation and
Leisure Services. The particular field I was
interested in was Commercial Recreation. Then my
Master's Degree was also an extension of the
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Recreation and Leisure Services program through the
education college, with an emphasis in commercial
recreation, but then I discovered I liked some public
administrations aspects of it, so I minored in Public
Admin.
Q. What was your first job after graduating
from your Master's program?
A. Parks and Recreation Director in Gadsden
County, Florida.
Q. And after that, your next position?
A. I was there nine years. I worked up
through a variety of different positions, all the way
up to Assistant to the County Administrator, Public
Works Director. To be specific, roads, bridges,
storm water. Very blue collar work.
I also served as the Legislative Officer,
Public Information Officer, the Emergency Management
Liaison to the Sheriff's Office. Our county did not
have emergency management control directly, that was
couched to under the sheriff, so it was completely
managed by him. I was just a conduit for information
to our Board. Animal Control was something that I
did oversee for awhile, until it was moved under Code
Enforcement. Solid Waste, Recycling. Honestly,
ma'am, I'm probably forgetting a couple of my
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assignments. I did a little bit of everything,
except for Planning and Zoning, Building Enforcement,
and Code Inspection.
Q. Okay. While you were overseeing Animal
Control, did you handle any matters involving exotic
animals?
A. I did Not. Gadsden County doesn't really
have that kind of an issue. It's still kind of lower
Georgia. Our biggest issues was puppies and kitty
cats. That's it. Occasionally, we had to deal with
a cow, but that's it.
Q. Okay.
A. It was very limited, very small community.
Q. And after that, where did you -- what
position did you move to next?
A. I came to Hendry County in May of 2013.
Q. Okay.
A. Late May have 2013.
Q. Okay. And did you come for the position of
County Administrator?
A. I did.
Q. Okay. So you've been in that same position
since you arrived?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. What led you to take that
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position?
A. Career advancement. Honestly, in this line
of work, political winds will blow your ship just
about any which way it wants to go. You really don't
have that much control over that. Being at the time
I was 33 years of age, there wasn't really much room
for advancement within Gadsden County. And trying to
get a job with Leon County or Tallahassee, right next
door, even with the state of Florida, that would have
met my income requirements, as well as what I wanted
to do for a living, it just wasn't there. It was
kind of a constrained economy.
So, I actually applied for over 30 some odd
positions in Florida, and California. And Hendry
County is very close to where my in-laws live in West
Palm Beach, and it just seemed like a pretty good fit
for me and my family to be in South Florida again, be
an hour and 30 minutes away from Grandma, and just
put down some roots and give this area a try. I'm
used to rural counties, being in Gadsden, and seemed
like it might be a good fit. So we decided, hey,
we'll give it a shot. Why not.
Q. Okay. Did you receive any specific
training to do your position here in Hendry County?
A. I have. I've been a part of the Florida
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City County Managers Association since 2009. I also
took a few case courses with the International City
Management Association. My Master's Degree, I
mentioned before, that I took several classes as my
minor in my Master's in public administration. I
have a lot of on-the-job training. I have
certificates in Emergency Management, National
Incident Command Systems.
I'm literally maybe a few credit hours away
from being Emergency Management Director Certified
Employee. Budget training, financial, government
offices training. I can go on ad nauseum, but
basically, if anything popped up from the time I was
25 till I was 33, I was taking that class. And I
continue to take educational opportunities. In fact,
I just finished Leadership Florida this past May.
Q. Have you taken specific training in
Planning and Zoning matters?
A. Briefly. It's not necessarily my strong
suit. I'll be completely honest with you. I'm
learning it as I go. That's another thing. In my
experience, I'm a home school student from
Kindergarten till 9th grade. And so my style of
learning is very hands-on and experiential. So, when
it comes to matters, I tend to lean towards that
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experience first, and then I go and get more
technical training as time goes on, where I may feel
uncomfortable with my understanding.
Q. Who do you report to, anyone?
A. The Board of County Commissioners as a
whole.
Q. As a whole, no Commissioner in
particular?
A. We do not have a strong mayor, so there is
not a individual person that is my boss. I report to
the majority of the Board, at any numerical dichotomy
that that may show up. So, if it's a 3-2 Board, 4-1,
5-0, I report to the majority of the Board, so.
Q. So does that mean that if there's a
disagreement among the Board that you play any
particular role?
A. Not really, other than just helping to
encourage them to bring it up under public forum,
public comment, try to work through their differences
as allowed through provisions of the law. If there's
things that they ask me information about
individually, when I turn that technical report back
in, I make sure I provide the information to all of
the Board members, so that I'm not favoring one
Commissioner over another.
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Just trying to play the balancing game to
keep them informed, and do my best do encourage
comradery and collaboration, but if you know the
tenure of county administration in the state of
Florida, it's only an average of four years. That's
a very difficult job trying to build consensus on a
reality TV show. It's very difficult.
Q. Who do you supervise?
A. I supervise -- well, technically, I'm in
charge of all of the departments of Hendry county,
but directly, I supervise six employees, and they are
listed as division heads. I can rattle them off, if
you'd like me to do that, in that detail, but I
supervise Shane Parker, the County Engineer. I
oversee the Office of Management Budget Director. I
oversee the Planning and Community Development
Director, the IT Director, the Human Resources
Director. Then my Executive Assistant, who also does
purchasing, special projects, and the agenda process.
Then our Strategic Initiatives Coordinator, who
oversees tourism, development, media relations,
and legislative affairs. So, I'm sorry, seven, not
six, when I count them all.
Q. Seven. Okay. Who is the Planning and
Community Development Director?
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A. Margaret Emblidge. She's in this room.
Q. Oh,. So you've already sort of described
some of your responsibilities, but if you could
elaborate a little bit more, and talk about sort of
some specifics of your day-to-day work.
A. And I'm trying to think of how to answer
your question, primarily because day-to-day my world
changes drastically. If I were a private CEO running
a company like Amazon, it's pretty myopic. There's
only a couple things that you have to deal with.
Within my direct reports that I outlined for
you, there's close to 18 to 20 different type of
departments, which could be listed as small
businesses. So on any given day, I could be pulled
in 18 to 20 different directions, just from the
moment I hit the door. So for me to give you an
atypical day in the life, that's like also trying to
tell you how to find a unicorn. There's not such a
thing.
I have my best laid plans. Typically, when I
hit the door in the morning, I try to go through my
e-mails, I see what fires are burning, but like for
instance this morning, we have a leak at the roof of
the courthouse. I didn't intend to be dealing with a
leaky roof and upset judge this morning because
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there's a roof leak. But my entire day has just been
side railed.
I intended to sit down, and remember those
e-mails I was talking about that I was going to read,
never got to them, putting out that fire. So in
transitioning, we have to submit our budget. So a
lot of times I'm trying to do a little bit of budget
during the course of the day, make sure that the
expenses and revenue are coming in the way they need
to.
I did a lot of diplomatic relations working
with the State Legislature. We have a special
session going on right now for regis (phonetic)
between the Congressional Maps, so I have to stay on
top of that. I read a lot of articles, I try to stay
informed. And then I have my seven staff members
that I need to visit with on a daily basis, and just
make sure they have the resources that they need to
handle any troubleshooting items that may take place.
I have my own work that I have to do as well,
but it tends to be something I do at night and the
early morning hours. I have three small children, so
2:00 a.m. is a common work hour for me, but other
than that very broad brush work. I'm not trying to
be elusive --
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Q. No, I understand.
A. -- it's just hard for me to say a typical
day in my life consists of checking freight
logistics, and how many orders did we get. That's
not my life. My life moves as a moving target
between the issues, so.
Q. How often do you communicate with the
legislators, and do you just communicate with the
ones who represent Hendry County?
A. Primarily I try to communicate about once a
month. Some months are better than others, where I
can get more frequently. Other times it may go two
or three months before I talk to our Representatives
or our Senators. I do try to branch out and build
allegiances with other Senators and Representatives.
It's often a smart strategy to have more allies than
not. So, it just depends on the issue.
If I know it's a, say it's a water quality
issue. I know I have a friend in Representative
Pigman that represents a whole different district. I
can send him an e-mail with some data about things
that we are concerned about, and he can kind of wrap
that into his legislative language.
If it has to deal with Juvenile Justice or
the Correction System, Representative Katie Edwards
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over in Broward County out of Davie is a good ally
and a good friend of ours, so I can send her
information about things I'm concerned about. So,
the answer to your question is I take a total State
approach when it comes to politics and dealing with
the legislature. We do have our Representatives, and
we are very grateful for the work that they do, but
sometimes there's more power in numbers when it comes
to a legislative session.
Q. How do you typically communicated, are you
an e-mail person, phone, all of the above?
A. I do a lot by e-mail. Occasionally, I will
pick up the phone, if it's something that I feel
would be better to be communicated with a voice.
E-mail is so cold at times, and dealing with the
politics of issues, it's better for me to pick up the
phone, and just say hey, here's what I'm thinking
about, here's where we are going with this. So they
can tell tonal inflections, and they can get that we
are just kind of working through the concept.
Sometimes we throw out an e-mail, and unless
you are a really great writing communicator, it gets
lost in communication. So I do a mix or blend of
both, you know. I also do a lot of in person. I'm
not opposed to getting in the car and driving to
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Clewiston and having a face-to-face meeting, if
that's what it takes. I've been known to go hop in
the car and go to Naples, and talk to a business
owner down there, because they need to see that face
to face. They need to see that presence. So, I'm
open to all forms of communication, but I typically
do e-mail and phone.
Q. Have you ever been disciplined in your
job?
A. As County Administrator in Hendry County?
Q. Or in any of your positions.
A. Okay. So let me ask a follow-up question
to make sure I understand your question. So, you are
talking about discipline as in demotions, as in
firing.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. I've never been fired, but I have been
demoted twice. And both times, the first time was a
dumb decision that I made. It's kind of stupid on my
part, but I reported an ethical issue about a former
County Administrator to an HR Director, and he found
out, and I got demoted for it. Again, small
community in lower Georgia. Interesting Dynamics.
The second time was I was the second place
finisher in the run for County Administrator in
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Gadsden County. The gentleman that did get the job,
he and I were oil and water, and he promptly removed
me from my position of Public Works Director, and
demoted me to a very low level position, which was
one of the catalysts for the reason I wanted to look
for a different opportunity. That happened in March
of 2013, and I came to work in Hendry of May of 2013.
It was quite the motivating factor. So, those were
the two disciplinary actions that I've experienced.
Q. Okay. Would you say that Public Relations
for the County is a core part of your job?
A. It is, and it is developing. The prior
administration was not very concerned with press
relations. We are attempting to get into that game,
but understanding our limited financial resources, we
do not have a PR professional. And while I'm used to
doing just press releases about news that come out,
press releases and public relations are often times
two very unique different elements to that game.
So, I would say yes, it's something we need
to be concerned about, but I would not say it is
ultimately a primary function. Our biggest concern
is staying within the bounds of the law. And if the
public likes the law, great. If they don't like the
law, that's tough. Change the law.
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Q. I think I was speaking a little bit more
broadly, as far as in communication with the -- your
constituents with the County citizens, generally?
A. Community relations is definitely something
that we are trying to improve upon as well. We are
working on that dynamic, trying to find ways to get
the community engaged, but that's also been very
difficult. The Hendry County population tends to be
quite elusive. They kind of want to just tend to
their own business, and if you are with the
government, they don't really want you involved in
their life at all. So it's been a redefining moment
for Hendry County.
Q. And how do you sort of communicate
information to constituents? What's the primary way
that you might do that?
A. Primarily we use newspapers are most
common, but we have started to branch out into
Facebook, and the Twitter, and other social media
outlets to try to get a greater impact or penetration
into people's information world, but that's a whole
lot of noise to try to cut through. And if they
don't want to hear from their government, they are
not going to pay attention to it.
Q. And when they do contact you, what sort of
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matters do they contact you about, or does it run the
gamut?
A. Most of the time it has to do with code
enforcement issue, you know. I got dinged for having
barbed wire in a rural residential zone. Why? I
can have animals, I can have a cow, but I can't have
barbed wire to keep them in the fence? Other things
run from I need help getting a job. Do you know of
any job openings? Can you connect me with a
workforce Board? Or I've got this great idea for
bringing in a festival, or here's a tourism draw. It
runs the gamut. I can't give you a consistent one.
Right now, the hottest topic is recreation.
The East Recreation site that's a partnership with
City of Clewiston, so. Depending on the time of the
year will dictate what the constituents are calling
me about. And we are getting ready to end mosquito
season. I get beat up a lot about mosquitoes.
Q. Do you meet with constituents ever?
A. If the matter dictates it. I try to be
very accessible. I have an open door policy. If a
resident comes in and they really want to see me,
they are welcome to come on back if I'm available, if
I don't have an appointment. Other times I'll try to
listen to the constituent on the phone, or try to
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read through the e-mail, and then I'll delegate the
matter off to the proper person that can handle it
within their expertise there.
I'm a generalist. I just try to keep the
flow of information moving. So, if it is a Planning
and Zoning issue, I'll send it to the young lady over
here on my left, and she can take it and run with it
within her world of expertise.
Q. Do you typically explain County Laws and
Policy to the public?
A. On occasion I will. Most of the time it's
a policy matter. I'll go a little bit more in
detail, and I usually provide them copies. So it's
not just me giving a verbal tradition of here is what
it says, but I also try to provide them the hard
evidence, so that they are able to actually read it
for themselves. I find it works better that way, to
help people educate themselves about the matter
completely.
Q. Can you give an example of when you've done
this?
A. Local vendor preference within our
Procurement Policy and our Ordinances. Had a
pharmaceutical company that bid on our Inmate
Pharmaceutical contract, and they were very upset
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because we picked a local vendor, and they wanted to
know why did they get all these bonus points. And I
had to provide them the State Statute and our Local
Ordinance that authorizes me to give preference to
our local vendor.
So while I pretty much retorted it to him the
same way I just did to you, and said "Here's copies
so you can read about it." And said "I'm sorry.
It's frustrating, but this was a policy decision of
the Board."
Q. Are you involved in any way with providing
the public about information related to land use and
zoning? I think you mentioned a few examples.
A. On occasion I will be approached with those
questions, but to go back to my earlier comment,
that's not necessary the strong part of my game. So
what I normally do with that is explain to the
residents that while I do have a functioning working
knowledge of it, let's me let you talk to the expert
and get more deep into details. I know where my
strengths and weaknesses are.
Q. So you wouldn't say that you are sort of an
expert on the Hendry County Land Use Code at this
point?
A. No, ma'am. Not even beginning. I'm a
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great generalist when it comes to just policy and
politics. I look at my job more as a hired
contractual political consultant. I'm trying to
mitigate not only the needs of the elected body, but
also trying to keep the business end of things
flowing on our side, and hopefully have the two goals
and objectives meet in the middle and move things
forward.
So, when it comes to subject matter
expertise, I can't look at a Site Development Plan
from an engineering prospective and give you two
pennies to rub together. I couldn't tell you the
Land Use Codes that come off the top of my head that
would have any meaning or merit. I'm certainly not
about to make a decision based on my own knowledge;
however, I do higher people that are smarter than me,
which is always a good business management practice.
And I get them in subject matter expertise, so that I
don't have to. I can just make sure they have the
knowledge, skills, and resources that they need to
achieve their job, and I let them do their work, and
I try not to micromanage them.
Q. Could you name the County Commissioners for
me?
A. You have Commissioner Carson Turner, who is
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our Chairman. You have Commissioner Janet Taylor,
who is our Vice Chairman. You have Commissioner Don
Davis, Commissioner Mike Swindell, and Commissioner
Darryl Harris.
Q. And do you know each of them personally?
A. I try to touch them all at least once a
week and say hey, how are you doing? What's going on
with you and your family? Is there anything I can do
to help you out? What's on your mind today? What
are you being approached about? What can I take off
of your plate to make your life easier? If they are
going to be traveling for work, is there anything my
Executive Assistant can do to help you with your
hotel accommodations. That's the most common
conversation we have. Commissioner, I heard your
family member was in the hospital, how are they
doing?
Q. Do you know how long each of them has been
a Commissioner?
A. I couldn't rattle that off the top of my
head. I have a cheat sheet sitting at my desk, but I
know several of them have been there for many years.
I think Darryl Harris and Janet Taylor have had three
or four elected runs. Mike Swindell is brand new. I
think Don Davis has held elected seat at least once
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in the past three decades each for a variety of
different tenures. Carson Turner I think has been on
board since 2008. That's just a rough guess. I may
be off a little there, but I think I'm right.
Q. But to your knowledge, none of them has
been there for 20 years?
A. I think if anyone has, Commissioner Taylor
would have been there the longest, and she may be
getting close to her 20 year pin.
Q. So you described sort of the relationship
between you and the Board. Can you go into a little
bit more depth about the exact nature of your
relationship?
A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Q. The relation between your position and the
Board.
A. From a professional standpoint?
Q. Yeah.
A. Again, I'll go back to my statement about
being a contractual political consultant. So a lot
of what I do is in my conversation with the Board is
say hey, what's on your mind lately? So, a big issue
recently had been Medicaid and how the State's been
dealing with that. So just about every meeting that
I've had with my Board members for the last year has
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been -- something has come up about Medicaid. So I'm
I always trying to brief myself on the issue. Okay.
This is something that has to be housed in my
office. I have to become the subject matter expert
in this. I don't have anyone I can delegate it off
to, so let me drill into a little bit more. So I'm
prepared if they want to talk about it. So I try to
stay up to speed, up to current with my file, and
just go in and talk to them about issues.
Now, if they have something, like recently
Commissioner Taylor wanted me to do research about
facility naming policies. So we'll have a
conversation, and I know of some of the things that
are going around the State, and we'll just converse
about it, and I'll ask her questions to see do you
really want to go down this road? You know, these
are some things that we may need to look out for.
What kind of conventions do you want? This will
restrict your flexibility, are you are of that?
Those kind of things.
Just trying to ask them questions to dive to
which way the policy is going to go. And then if
they say yes, I really want to do this, then my next
advise to them is okay, bring it up at the next Board
meeting. And if a majority of the Board agrees with
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you that this is something we need to spend staff
time on, then I'll start working on it.
Q. So, in terms of sort of issues that come
before the Board, would you say that generally the
Commissioners decide what is heard? For instance,
at Board meetings, or do you have any input, in terms
of if you think something really needs to be on the
agenda?
A. I can contribute to things that the Board
should -- might need to be aware of. Most of the
time I'm reporting a problem. And then, but again,
my personal stance on how I operate this job is I
never want to just take a problem to my Board. I
want to bring light to the issue, and then provide
them a set of options to consider.
I don't like people bringing just problems to
me, and say it's my time to fix it. I want them to
bring me solutions, so that we can be effective in
our conversation. So it just depends on what the
issues are. There are a few things that I can handle
within my powers and duties, but when it comes to
policy, whether it be Human Resources Policies,
Purchasing Policies, Customer Service Policies, Comp
Plans, Land Development Codes, any number of those
things, that's way without beyond my bounds of
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decision-making process. That's at the Board level.
Now, I can raise a hand and say Board, do you
want me to delve into this? But other than that, my
powers are very restricted when it comes to those
matters. And most of it is implementation,
verification, and confirmation, and that's it.
Q. In terms of policy, we were just discussing
that you often provide advice, policy advice to the
Commissioners or have policy discussions. Do you
make specific recommendations to them?
A. I can on occasion. It depends on how
comfortable I feel with making that recommendation.
It also depends on what information I've provided to
them that leads to a very clear conclusion in my
mind. In my tenure here, more often than not, things
have been very clean. I've been able to say I
recommend you take option one. Other times I've had
to throw it back at the Board and say the water is
very muddy on this issue, the Board needs to provide
direction.
Q. So when you -- when a policy is unclear,
that's a situation in that you might recommend that
to the Board?
A. I'll take it to the Board, and they need to
give me direction. Yes, ma'am.
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Q. Do you recommend that they bring those
issues before the public and their meetings?
A. The only time I do that is at the public
meeting. So it is voted on or considered at the
public meetings. I want to be very clear on that,
though. I do not poll my Board, and I do not take
unofficial majority votes. Everything that I do that
is a direction of the Board is done at a public
meeting that's been advertised and falls within the
proper bounds of the law. So we do not poll
Commissioners. That is restricted. I cannot do
that.
Q. So in terms of -- I'm not sure I
understand. In terms of when you are explaining,
when you are sort of formally presenting a policy
matter before the Board, you always have to do it at
a meeting?
A. Yes. If I want Board direction. If I want
Board direction.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, I can get a sense of what maybe the
concerns that the Board members may have
individually, but then I am compelled to bring it at
the Board meeting with all the information available.
And I cannot take action until a majority of the
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Board gives me a direction.
So I'll even make it something as benign as
we were planning on doing some sort of a bus tour of
the county. For everybody, get on the bus. It
sounds like a really good idea. Get everybody on the
bus. We are all going to ride around the County and
look at various issues with our facilities, with, you
know, properties that we are looking to develop, like
the Everglades Airport, and some of the different hot
topic items.
Well, the problem with that is Sunshine Law,
publicly advertised meetings, getting more than one
or two council people in the room together and
discussing issues that they could vote on. So, I had
to -- I got a request from a Board member to look
into it. We talked. We determined that it's
probably not a good idea to do that. We brought it
back up at a Board meeting, and we killed it.
Harmless as that may have seemed, it could have
created a huge amount of issues. So, that -- does
that help answer the question of how that process
kind of works?
Q. Yeah.
A. It came up at a Board meeting, we analyzed
it. We brought it back to a Board meeting. It
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either goes up or down.
Q. Okay. Are there policies that you feel the
Board should address in a public meeting that haven't
been addressed, or do you ever have disagreements
about whether something should be brought before the
public?
A. I'm trying to make sure I understand your
question.
Q. In other words, what are the -- what are
some of the criteria that bring something before a
public meeting, and who gets to decide that?
A. Unfortunately, at this point, I've been
here a little over two years. We are still very
reactive to a lot of things. Purchasing policy, the
prime example. We didn't realize it hadn't been
touched in a very long time. So once we become
knowledgeable of something, then we bring it to the
Board's attention, and we get their direction, if
they feel there's a deficiency there.
Now, it's well within the Board's right to
say we don't have a problem with it. Live with it.
It's just my personal responsibility to make the
Board aware of it. There a variety of issues that we
have been living in within Human Resources. We have
adjusted sick leave donation policies, where there's
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been a problem with an employee who's terminally ill.
We had a cap on how many hours you could receive on
sick leave.
Brought that to the Board, they liked that
one. So they allowed me to amend it, and bring that
provision back, and the Board approved. So, it just
depends. We are still very reactive. We have not
gotten to a place where we are proactive or trying to
modernize certain things yet. We are still mining
deficiencies, so.
Q. Can you think of a situation in which
you've provided Policy Analysis or Evaluation
regarding Zoning and Land Use matters to the Board?
A. Where I have?
Q. Um-hmm.
A. Honestly, not off the top of my head. I'm
not recalling anything off the top of my head. I'm
not saying I haven't done it, I'm just not recalling
it off the top of my head.
Q. But typically that process would occur as a
discussion between you and the Commissioners?
A. Typically what happens is, let's say
Commissioner Harris has a question about a Land Use
issue. He'd come to me and say "Chapman, I've got a
concern." I'd promptly say "Okay. Let's get the
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subject matter expert in here, and let's walk through
this together," so that I can hear what is being said
to the Board member, and help interpret the policy
lingo for this Commissioner who's a lay person. They
are less than a part-time employee. They are not
going to know the ins and outs and the depths of the
policies. So I try to serve as an interpreter to the
best of my ability.
Q. Can you describe the situation in which
you've had a disagreement or a difference of opinion
with the Board, any of the Board members, regarding
the application or interpretation of a Statute or a
County Ordinance?
A. I can honestly say I've been very, very
fortunate that we haven't disagreed about much at
all. And most of the time, it's should you vote for
Governor Scott or Charlie Crist in the last election,
it's more of a haha kind of moment. It's not been
Policy or Statute issues that we disagree upon. Most
of the time, we pretty much see eye to eye on issues.
I understand that the Board has very clear
expectations. They want to be as friendly and
efficient to the residents and to the businesses as
possible.
Q. So I read on the website, your County
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website, that you also provide -- you sort of provide
internal and external guidance, or you serve sort of
internal/external customers.
A. Yes.
Q. The internal customers being the County
staff who might seek Policy and Operational guidance
from you; is that correct?
A. Sometimes I'm approached by internal staff
on policy for, you know, Chapman, do you agree with
the way I'm reading this? Am I verifying or
confirming this correctly? And just being able to
help them verify or confirm things. Now, from if we
find something that's confusing where there may he
need to be a point of discussion with the Board for
interpretation, decision, definition, then that's
when we bring it up to the Board, and let the Board
make that call.
Q. Can you provide an example of policy
guidance or direction that you've provided or had
with the County Planning Department?
A. Well, we had a workshop about some
consistent issues that we are having, remember that
thing I said about barbed wire in the rural
residential? That's one of them. We workshopped
that issues in a publicly advertised meeting with the
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Board. The Board gave several directives from that
workshop.
Most recently, I think it was at the last
meeting, kick me if I'm wrong, is we set a schedule
to address some of those issues, whether it's
concurrency, or cleaning up some minor language that
our residents have complained to us about that seem
to be consistent problems.
Q. Do you remember sort of what the language
or Policy is that the residents were confused or
concerned about?
A. Not in totality, ma'am. The barbed wire
one sticks out in my head, because I literally got
chewed out by a Commissioner because that was, in his
mind, a dumb policy, and I needed to fix it. That's
the only one that stands out. I couldn't tell you
all of those policies off the top of my head. Again,
I have a cheat sheet at my desk to remind of me of
what's going on.
Q. Was it sort of the landowners who were
facing that issue who sort of initiated the workshop
process, or was it the Board?
A. Mixed bag. It's a mixed bag between the
State of Florida having some issues with concurrency
between our documents, and some landowner issues,
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some things that were brought up from the Economic
Development Council to say this would help our
businesses get permits faster. Things like that,
from a very broad macro level.
Q. How often would you say you engage in that
process where you might workshop an issue and bring
it, you know, before the public?
A. A couple times a year where we really drill
in deep on some issues. Again, I've only been here
two years or so. So we are just now getting past
that reactive stage, and starting to get where we
need to do deeper dives on issues.
Q. Do you have the authority to direct County
Staff as to the meaning of any of the Ordinances?
A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by
"direct."
Q. So, say you think a County Department
applying a law incorrectly, and you think the law is
clear, and they are not applying it correctly. Would
you be able to say you should be applying it this
way, this is the right way?
A. If I felt like it was a gross
misinterpretation of the law, then I would raise
concerns, but ultimately, I would never do so without
first consulting with legal to make sure that I
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wasn't reading it incorrectly, because I'm not an
attorney. I'm not trained to interpret Statute in
that manner. So I would have to confer with my team.
I do -- I manage by team. So while on the
rough edge of the Ordinance that gives me my power
and authority, that may be included, but that's
something that I always confirm with legal before I
start hopping into those issues. They seem very
sensitive.
Q. Can you think of any examples of when this
has happened?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Okay.
A. No, ma'am. Not here.
Q. I'm sorry, continue.
A. Not here. I'm sorry. Not here. We have
not dealt with that issue here.
Q. But it happened at your previous
position?
A. In Gadsden County, yes, ma'am.
Q. What was the subject of the --
A. TDC, Tourism Development Council. Hotel,
restaurant, sales taxes, and the way they were
governed, we had problems.
Q. But in that situation, you weren't the
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administrator, correct?
A. No, ma'am. I wasn't even involved. I was
on the sidelines, and I helped do the analysis, so.
Q. Okay. So I know that you mentioned you are
not an expert on the Land Use Code, but how familiar
are you with the Zoning Codes and Ordinances?
A. Just very broadly from a nomenclature
standpoint. I get lost in the finer points of
things, but if you were to say Ag 1, Ag 2, Rural
Residential, Residential, Commercial, Industrial, I
can probably paint Fenway Park for you about what
happens within that zone.
But as far as specifics, if you were to come
to me and say I have A, B, C projects, and I'm in
this zone. Time out. We need a meeting. We need to
really drill into this, so I don't mislead you in any
direction when it comes to interpretation of the Code
or Comp Plan.
Q. Are you familiar with sort of the process
by which a business or a land owner might develop
property?
A. Somewhat familiar. I mean, if it's a -- if
they wanted to change their Future Land Use
designation, then I know there's a process that we
have to go through. First we have to consider it,
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then we ship it up to the State for their review, and
then they send it back with comments. And it's about
a nine-month process.
I know about the metric that it takes to walk
down that trail. It could take nine months to 12
months depending on the aggression of the applicant,
how good of a consultant they have helping them
through that process, are they doing certain levels
of State review. There is a lot of curve balls that
go into that question. So I can help guide from that
perspective. A lot of times I've the guy in the
corner asking the dumb questions saying hey, have we
thought about this, have we thought it about that. I
call it the spaghetti noodle syndrome. Throw it up
against the wall, and see which one sticks.
Q. Are you familiar with the sort of the
specific process that a developer has to go through
in order to build, say a new business on a plot of
land in Hendry County?
A. There's a lot to that question. It
depends.
Q. From a Planning and Zoning perspective.
A. There's obviously a Zoning Verification
that has to happen beforehand to confirm that the
uses are allowable by the Code and Comp Plan. If
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it's not, then there's a lot of things you have to do
to try to get variances or special exceptions with
it. If it is, it's a buy right approval, and you
know, if you are lucky enough to buy a residential
lot that's zoned residential that you want to put a
house on it, that's great. That's easy. You are in
and out in no time.
If you buy a commercial lot and you want to
put a residential dwelling on it, you've got a
problem. And we have to go through some processes,
and it has to go back before the Board for a variety
of things, whether it's a variance, special
exception, or a change in zoning. Any number one of
those vehicles that you want to ride. So, you know,
I'm familiar with it enough to say that if it is a
use that is designated that follows what you want to
do, the land and what you want to do on it matches
up, you are good. No muss, no fuss. You picked the
right property.
Q. Did you ever -- are you ever involved in
the process of submitting Site Development Plan
applications, or have you ever been involved sort of
in a more detailed fashion than that?
A. No, ma'am, I'm not. I've always been just
the person that allows the specific specialist to
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handle that. They bring information to me that I
review from a generalist perspective to make sure
that it's as jargon free as it can be, and easy to
understand for our Board, so that if I'm asked
questions, that I can communicate it effectively with
the Board.
Also, if residents call me that they can
interpret it easily, and then I allow it on the
agenda for a publicly advertised meeting, and then we
put it out there. So, that's the only time I get
involved is if something is going on the agenda or
has to go to the Board, and I just want to make sure
that it's easy to read, because it can get technical
in a hurry. And honestly, our populous needs a
little bit more clearly common language written so
that it's not confusing.
Q. So that's in terms of, for instance, the
language that might appear in the newspaper ads or
the way something is described in the Board agenda?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay.
A. Correct.
Q. Where you familiar with the process by
which the Department analyzes a Zoning
classification? Say you have a business that wants
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to come in and they look at Land Use Codes.
A. I have a very general overview of what
takes place, but I've come to know that every planner
is like dealing with a doctor, they have their own
way of walking through, checking out a patient. So I
allow them to do it within their own expertise. And
I've been around this gig long enough, for the last
14 years, to understand that every planner handles it
differently. So just depends. Just like every human
is different, every planner is different. Just like
every attorney approaches a case differently.
Q. How would you describe the sort of the way
that you determine a Zoning Classification? Is it a
verification, an interpretation, an application; what
word might you use?
A. Well, there's definitely -- at some levels
there's an application process, once they are very
serious about moving forward. But then often times
what I see happen is someone will call and say hey,
can I do X, Y, Z on this piece of property? They'll
look up the parcel ID, they'll consider what the
person is talking about, and then they will verify
and confirm that it's allowed within the Comp Plan
and Development Code.
If it isn't, then they'll give them direction
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as to which step in the process they need to go
through to be able to achieve those goals, through
the public hearing process, amendments with the
Board, public meetings, all of the above within the
procedures as outlined by Statute and Ordinance.
Q. I think I was trying to get at something a
little bit different, which is so I know that this
isn't your particular area of expertise, but you
would just, in your opinion, when you are reading a
Code and you are sort of looking at the words, what's
the process, or what would be a name for the way that
you would tell what that means? Is it an opinion, a
judgment call, an interpretation, a verification?
A. It would be a verification and a
confirmation. I mean, you are looking at the
language to ultimately see if things were
contemplated, or if they were left restricted, or
left loose, either which way, and you just verify it.
What's your flexibility here? And then you move
forward with a verification or confirmation based on
what you've read.
Q. So in your mind, sort of the plain meaning
of the word should govern?
A. Yes, I mean, depending on if it's a
conservative or a liberal issue on that particular
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piece of document. Basically, the Comp Plan and Land
Use Plan rule. They are supreme. And as they walk
through that interpretation of what they are saying
and verifying what this person is telling them, they
just need to be honest and say okay, this is
contemplated or this was left gray, you fall into
that level, then it's a verification or confirmation.
Q. What are some situations in which something
might be left gray in the Zoning Code?
A. There's broad brush strokes all over the
place. You get things like petroleum operations in
industrial. Well, is that drilling? I mean,
there's things that are very broad. Is it a gas
station? Is it a depot? What could it possibly have
as an industrial? So have you to think through that
broad term. Why was it left broad and what could it
encompass.
Q. How do you -- so say something is broad or
could be ambiguous like the petroleum thing that you
were describing, how would you come to a
determination of what it specifically means?
A. I would go back and look at precedent. I
would go back and look at other interpretations that
the Board may have undertaken in the past to provide
clarity on that issue. There must be a reason why it
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was left vague. And so I would go back and look
through meeting minutes, do searches, and see have
they ever taken up this issue before, and if so, see
what was the decision on the Board level.
MS. EBERLY: So I'd like to just grab some
of the Zoning Code, and just look at a few of
the Zoning Classifications with me.
(Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So as I list the categories, if you
wouldn't mind sort of just describing very briefly,
you know, what you think each one means, and to name,
you know, a facility that might fall under each one.
So Agriculture Conservation.
A. Agriculture is agriculture. It's the
growing of products or animals for mass market sale
for food or any other type of commodity that could be
beneficial from an agricultural-type operation. One
of the things that comes to mind is the cattle
industry. We have several of those around here.
It's a variety of things from whether it's
beef or leather for textiles, or whether it's hooves
for chew toys, or whether it's, you know, semen that
they send off for animal husbandry issue or
practices. Something I got educated on is ranch
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herders don't necessarily like to have their bulls
impregnate their own cows. They want to diversify
the genetic makeup, so they extract sperm regularly.
They could deal with having to do some
medical procedures for the health and well-being of
those animals. There's a lot of stuff that goes into
agriculture. It's a very broad industry that
overlaps into some other industries. So it's
definitely a very interesting, interesting
institution for this State.
Q. In terms of the -- so just talking about
the A 1 is Agriculture Conservation. What's your
understanding of the conservation part of that?
Obviously, it's not general agriculture, it's
different in some way.
A. Off the bat when I see a conservation with
agriculture, I immediately go to water issues, and I
immediately go to Panther Primary Zone. So, just
doing nothing more than reading this front page,
that's where I couch immediately, which is what have
you got to do for Wetland Mitigation, and how is the
Panther going to inhibit you on what you want to
do.
Q. And I think General Agriculture, you sort
of covered that?
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A. Extremely broad category. There's a lot of
stuff that can happen with that, whether it's horses
or ostrich farms or alligator farms, you name it. It
could be anything.
Q. What about General Commercial?
A. I that I could go a variety of ways again
with that. Just having a very layman's perspective,
general perspective on General Commercial, I would
think that that could be maybe a business
headquarters, maybe a warehouse, maybe a distribution
center.
Q. And what about High Intensity Commercial?
A. I would think that's a manufacturer. I
would think that would be something like a refinery.
Q. So if you wouldn't mind just flipping to
the definition of High Intensity Commercial. It's on
the last page, I believe.
A. The very last page of the packet?
Q. Yeah. So if you could just read this.
MR. LAPP: It's not the last page.
THE WITNESS: I'm not seeing it.
MS. EBERLY: This one.
MR. LAPP: Do you have a page number there?
MS. EBERLY: It's alphabetical.
MR. LAPP: That's not the last page, then.
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THE WITNESS: Oh, I see, you've highlighted
it.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. I'm sorry.
A. It's actually page 5.
Q. Okay. I don't have any page numbers, so.
Sir, could you read that definition, please? Not the
enumerated items, but the main.
A. "High Intensity Commercial means those
activities which require outdoor storage, have higher
trip generations than general commercial uses listed
above, or have the potential for greater nuisance to
adjacent properties due to noise, light, and glare,
or typical hours of operation. This group of uses
includes the following list of specific uses and all
substantially similar activities." And then you
requested I don't read those, so.
Q. Can you -- so if you look at number 5,
veterinary offices and animal hospitals with outside
kennels, why might that kind of a facility be
classified as High Intensity Commercial?
A. It sounds like it's a very specific
individual medical type of an operation.
Q. What about it, though, would make it High
Intensity from a perspective of Zoning
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Classification?
A. I'm not really certain. Most veterinary
offices I've ever been to have been quite quiet
operations, so I'm not really sure why it was put in
High Intensity Commercial. I'd have go back and look
in the records of why it was put there.
Q. So would you say it's possibly because
reading this definition it has the potential for
greater nuisance due to noise, that sort of thing?
MR. LAPP: Objection to form. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: It might. It could be. I
don't know. I haven't dealt with this
particular piece before, and like I said, I
don't know what was contemplated when they put
this language together.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you think it's arbitrary that they would
have that under this classification?
MR. LAPP: Object to the form.
THE WITNESS: Again, with my background
with Comp Plan and Land Use Code, I find that I
sometimes don't understand a lot of things that
are put into these Codes. And until I go back
and look at the record, I'm not able to expand
upon that intelligently. Just on the surface, I
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can't answer that question.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Okay. Next going back to Agriculture and
Agriculture Conservation, I believe it's on the first
page after the classification.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. So, are you familiar at all with the
difference between those two, General Agriculture and
Agriculture Conservation?
A. Not specifically, but usually if you have
an A 1 and an A 2 and an A 3, there's varying levels
of restriction that go into each one.
Q. Can you think of a facility that might be
properly zoned in General Agriculture, but not in
Agriculture Conservation?
A. I couldn't get that specific with you,
ma'am. That's more micro than I'm able to interpret,
to be honest with you.
Q. Do you think there's a reason that the
General Agriculture and Agriculture Conservation are
separated?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: Again, without knowing what
was contemplated when this Comp Plan was
written, I can't answer that. I don't know why
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they would put one thing in Ag Conservation and
others in General Agriculture, and what the
defining moments were. Again, not -- I've only
been here two years. I'm not intimately
involved with the Comp Plan. I'm not intimately
involved with Land Development Codes, but I just
can't answer the question to be specific without
having gone back and done some analysis and
reading on the issue. I'm unfortunately
ignorant when it comes to that.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So in terms of your work, you haven't had
the occasion to use or review the Comprehensive Plan
with any regularity?
A. No, ma'am. That's why I higher specific
specialists to take care of that for me, because
honestly, in my daily schedule, I don't have enough
time to delve into the depths of these documents.
They are too dense and they are too complicated. My
job is to make sure that people have their finances
and resources that they need to do their job well,
and they are meeting their deadlines and their
benchmarks.
Q. Okay. So we are gonna put this aside just
for a second. Sir, I realize this might be going
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more into detail than you are aware of, but if there
is a disagreement between an applicant for a Zoning
Permit and, you know, the Planning Board between what
classification they fell into, how do you think that
would be resolved?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: Well, without having a
specific instance to go off of, depending on
what it is, if it's clearly interpreted, that's
fine. If it's a disagreement because I have a
hard-headed resident that just doesn't like the
way the law reads, I would probably call for an
independent opinion, and I would review it with
our County Attorney, and allow him to give me
some guidance, as far as his legal
interpretation, and whether or not it involves a
decision to be made by the Board, to see if we
can put it -- if we are not clearly verifying or
confirming the intent. And then we would have
to take it to the Board for further
determination and decision. All the while
dealing with a very grumpy resident. Can I beg
a bathroom break?
MS. EBERLY: Yes, of course. Let's take
ten minutes.
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THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
(Brief recess was taken.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Switching gears a little bit, I wanted to
talk a little bit about the Hendry County Economic
Development Council.
A. Okay.
Q. So I believe you are on the Board of
Directors for the Hendry County?
A. The General Board, not the Executive
Board.
Q. Okay. What's your role on the Hendry
EDP?
A. I listen to issues they bring up from time
to time. Usually it's more about fundraising or
education improvement tax force, to be specific.
Other things are like a labor shed study that we are
undertaking. General business items that they are
trying to accomplish for marketing or recruitment
strategies, or whatever they may possibly be.
There is also incentive that we talk about
from time to time, but mostly I end up reporting on
what's currently going on within County Government to
them, so. It's not one of my more business intensive
type boards, it's more kind of anecdotal than
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anything. I know that's kind of harsh for me to say,
but you want me to be honest, but it seems like more
of a cluck session than anything.
Q. And you are sort of the liaison between the
Board of County Commissioners and the --
A. If I need to be, from time to time. Most
of the time it's just monitoring, and if something
pops up I think the Board needs to be aware of, I'll
report it, but usually I just take in the reports,
file away their agenda with the minutes, and that's
usually just another month goes by.
Q. Do they have regular meetings?
A. I believe they have monthly. I've not been
a regular attender. I'll be honest. I've been very
busy this past year, so I've missed a lot of meetings
within the last nine to ten months.
Q. What's the council's relationship to the
Board of County Commissioners?
A. They are an independent council. They do
provide reports to the Board periodically, because we
do fund them, but as far as them being a direct
report to me or considered a Department of the Board,
no. They are a third-party separate arm.
Q. Do you know what the EDC sort of does to
encourage businesses to come here?
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A. I know they try to be as customer friendly
as they can. A lot of southern hospitality that goes
into that. There is significant amounts of
conversations that they have as far as our benefits,
such as being intermodal logistics, meaning rail. We
have railroad here. We have U.S. 27, and we are
literally two and a half hours from every
metropolitan hub that you could possibly ever want to
be at. So compared, our taxes are low, and our land
is cheap, and we think we are a good spot, so come
consider us. I'm paraphrasing horribly. I would get
kicked by the marketing firm.
Q. So let's say a business would like to come
locate in Hendry County?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How does the EDC sort of help them with
that process of locating here?
A. A variety of different things, depending on
the business. Some businesses have their mind
completely made up of specific things that they need
to check off their inventory. Others have no clue
what they are looking for. None whatsoever. So it's
a little bit more laborious process. So again,
similar to kind of the way I've answered my question
about what does my day-to-day look like, it just
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depends. It depends on who the client is, it depends
on what their needs are, it depends on what they are
looking for, from quality of life variables to
infrastructure.
Q. Is the council involved in sort of the
zoning and development process with regards to new
businesses?
A. They typically want to help the business
verify or confirm that what they want to do matches
up with the land they are looking at. So, they will
call for verification or confirmation, but as far as
an involvement beyond just that, no.
Q. So from your understanding, does the -- do
any of the members of the EDC participate in zoning
meetings, for example?
A. I think they go and attend, and they may
speak up about a project, but as far as, if what you
mean by attend is actively engaged in the decision
being made by that advisory council, outside of maybe
just speaking to a particular applicant, or sitting
in an office and observing what's going on so that
they can then advise the client on what may need to
take next, then that's just a very broad, a small
interpretation. They really don't get engaged that
much on those issues. Not like that.
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Q. Does the council communicate with the
Planning and Zoning Department regarding sort of when
a business might have an application coming in?
A. I think they do out of a courtesy. One of
our, again, in the last year, since Miss Emblidge
came on Board, which was in January, so that's what,
eight months. We have really gotten aggressive with
pre-application meetings, and helped the clients to
identify whether there are potential road blocks to
getting permitted, and layout a timeline with
milestones of, you know, what can they expect.
And we try to clear the air for them. It's
not just us, there's State and Federal regulations
that you have to meet, depending on your business,
and you need to get those ducks in a row, too. It
might be all fine and good, you get a permit from us,
but it's going to be conditioned on being compliant
with State and Federal Regulations.
Q. Is the EDC involved with making sure that
the company gets those regulations?
A. They are a big cheerleader.
Q. Okay.
A. They are a big cheerleader on trying to get
them to make sure they have the proper materials, and
to get them through those regulations to get
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permitted. So yeah, they cheerlead. They try to
encourage, they push them along a little bit, tell
them they are a good person, and kind of move the
ball. I mean, I look at the EDC as a facilitator.
They are a facilitator and a cheerleader. They are
really just trying to keep the energy and momentum
behind the client to do what they need to do, if they
still want to come to Hendry County.
Q. So I think you mentioned earlier, totally
switching gears, that you are very experienced in
emergency planning and that you are sort of one
credit away from being --
A. I have all my certifications to potentially
be qualified for emergency director, but now as far
as having perfectly put an Emergency Management Plan
or a COOP Plan or any of those deep down distinctive
documents, other than my one or two distinct
emergency service functions, I haven't done it.
Now, if you want me to write an ESF based on
debris management, I'm your guy. I can tell you how
to move heavy stuff with big yellow equipment. I can
knock that out in about ten minutes. If you want to
talk about how we can use parks and recreation
facilities as housing during a catastrophic event,
I've got your back there, too. But for me to make
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the arrogant claim that I have extensive experience
on planning and emergency management, no, ma'am. I
can't even begin to tell you how utilities work or
how all of that works at that level of need.
Q. In terms of Hendry County, are you, have --
you participated at all in emergency planning for the
County?
A. To date, no, ma'am, I have not. I have
not.
Q. I'm sorry.
A. To answer your question, I did serve as
Interim Emergency Management Director for a few
months while we were trying to find a new one, but
basically my job was try to keep the rudder in the
middle of the river, and not deviate. Lights on,
doors open. That was it. We didn't make any
modifications, and I'm not engaged in that today. I
hope to in the future, but not now.
Q. Are you familiar sort of with the County --
does the County have a Formal Emergency Management
Plan?
A. We do have a CEMP. I forget what all of
that is, Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.
Q. Okay.
A. But without having to physically reach up
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and physically grab that thick 4-inch binder and
throw it in front of me and just kind of read through
it, but I couldn't retort off to you what it says,
other than I can assume it has everything for all the
18 emergency service functions, what roles do they
play, who do they report to, you know, who is the
contact list for X, Y, and Z, so.
Q. Do you know when that document was last
updated or when it was produced?
A. I want to say they finished an update in
the 2014 season. And that was under my tenure as
administrator, but I didn't engage on that process.
I actually had -- they had a consultant that was
wrapping that up when I was getting here. For me to
have hopped in at that point would have been a
serious issue. And there was nothing on the radar at
that point for us -- to compel me to have to get into
it at that point, so. If it was compliant with the
State Standards, that was good enough for me at the
moment.
Q. Does the County have any facilities, for
example, that handle sort of chemicals or anything?
A. I think there is a liquid fertilizer plant,
or there used to be. That may be dated information.
I know we have a refinery over at U.S. Sugar, and a
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few others, but as far as anything that sticks out in
my mind as being hazardous material intensive, like
ethyl-methyl kill me quick, or whatever it may about
possibly be. I'm not aware of it personally. I'm
sure our Emergency Management Director is, but I'm
not directly, no.
Q. Would sort of a discussion of that
facilities be in the Emergency Management Plan; do
you know?
A. It could be contemplated, but I've never in
my cursory just flipping through it, I haven't
drilled in on anything like that. I'm sure it's
something that as we expand our proficiency, we
probably will do, but we are probably a year or two
away from that kind of a deep dive. We are still
very young in that department.
Q. Okay.
A. Trying to get a little bit more
sophisticated.
Q. Do you know whether the plan sort of
discusses hurricanes or does it just talk about all
emergencies generally?
A. It's very hurricane centering, given our
location. I mean, we are sweating bullets now
watching the Tropical Depression off of Cape Verde.
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So, hoping to God it just, not that I wish any ill
will on the Yucatan, but please, not here.
There is some contemplation for, say if a
train derails, and it has, you know, again, the
ethyl-methyl kill me quick, what are going to do
about that? There is some contemplation about flash
flooding. We are right here on the river of the
intercoastal waterway. It can be contemplated.
Tornados, hail storms, the freak freeze.
Whatever they possibly -- there's some things
that are contemplated on there, but it's almost like
he was checking the boxes from a macro document sent
out by Tallahassee. As far as it being extremely
custom, it's not there yet. It's not there yet. We
had to change department heads in the last eight
months because it was such a poor job being done. So
when I say we are very young in that department, we
are very young in that department.
Q. I'd like to talk a little bit about
agriculture operations in the County.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Can you describe some of Hendry's
agricultural industry?
A. There's always the big three: Cattle,
citrus, and sugar cane. There's also, I believe,
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there's an alligator farm nearby, there's some deer
farms, or deer ranch. What do you call a deer farm?
I have no idea what that proper term is. There's an
equine facility somewhere around the Seminole
Reservation. Of course the facilities we are talking
about here with the non-human primates. There's
several that are falling in nursery categories.
There are several that follow grow crops. We have a
huge mosaic of agriculture that happens in this
county.
Q. Have you visited any of the local
businesses?
A. A couple when I've had time. I've been out
to the Hilliard Ranch. I've been out to the Alico
Ranch to see their cattle operations. I do quite a
bit of business with U.S. Sugar, so I get to see
their Glades, and go to the refinery every now and
then, just to take it in, and see what's going on,
but that's about it. I've had very limited field
trips out to see these places, primarily because most
of my days are in an environment like this.
Q. What is agriculture, how would you define
it?
A. Oh, wow, that's a huge definition. I think
I said earlier that it's the growing and the
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producing of animal, plant product for consumption,
sale, or use. I know that's kind ever a very generic
maybe third-grader way of saying it, but you are
growing something, you are sending out to a needed
market.
Q. And do you feel that that definition is
sort of the common understanding of the --
A. In this County, yeah. Absolutely. They
have a very broad definition of agriculture here, as
far as the residents are concerned, and they are very
proud of that agricultural history. So if it's
dealing with either plant or animal life, they are
about agriculture. They are very proud that they
have a long-standing cattle history, or they have a
very long-standing ability to grow any type of animal
or plants. So yea, I think it's widely accepted from
the majority of the people in the County, as well as
the majority of my governing Board.
Q. In terms of just sort of the lay person's
understanding, would you say that the County, its
residents, or the government's interpretation is
unusual or differs?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form. Go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: No. I can honestly say the
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majority of the people that I run into say
agriculture is you're growing stuff. You are
growing it for a needed market. And we are
happy with how the County is interpreting
agriculture at this time.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. And when you say "we," you mean you, or --
A. I mean the governmental agency from the
direction of the Board, all the way through to the
staff.
Q. And would you say that goes as well for the
majority of the citizens in the County?
A. Our citizens and residents, yes, ma'am.
Q. What evidence have you seen of that?
A. Everything from coffee shop talks, to bar
mitzvah's, to birthdays, to EDC meetings, to TDC
meetings, to Rotary Club meetings, Kiwanis meetings,
I can go an and on. Church devotional groups.
Q. Are you familiar with how the definition of
agriculture was developed in the Land Use Codes?
A. No, ma'am, I'm not.
Q. Are you familiar with when it was
revised?
A. Broadly early 2000, maybe. I'm guessing
there. That's a shot in the dark.
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Q. Do you know if when it was formulated,
there was public involvement?
A. I believe so. For it to have ended up in
those two documents, it would have had to have public
involvement.
Q. Okay. I noticed a few agriculture uses,
and I'd like you to just tell me what you think each
one means.
A. Okay.
Q. And these are from the definition of
agriculture in the County Ordinances.
A. Okay.
Q. So farming.
A. Um-hmm. Farming to me could be row crops,
could be -- it's typically plant-based in my mind,
but it also could encompass animals, a variety of
sorts. It just depends on how the nomenclature runs
with it. I mentioned what do you call a deer farm?
I don't know what the proper term for that is. I
know for a horse raising operation, it's more of an
equine, I think they call it an Equine Center, or
something. Some fancy term.
So when I hear farming, I immediately go
first off the cuff, I'm thinking plants, but then I
start thinking about swine operations, I think about
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chicken farms, I think about some of the exotic
things I've seen in the past, some of the other
different things, owner specialty-type farms, whether
it's ostriches or alligators, reptiles, snake farms,
as gross as that is. I have an issue with snakes.
Q. Are you familiar with a snake farm?
A. I just don't like snakes, personally.
Q. I know.
A. I ran into one at one point in Georgia.
It's a creepy operation. Have you ever watched
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?
Q. Yeah.
A. It's kind of like that. It's really gross.
Q. Do you know what the snakes -- was it for
meat?
A. It was meat. It was python for meat and
for shoes, and belts.
Q. Okay. Dairy?
A. Dairy, yes. Mostly a cow operation, but
could encompass anything that lactates. Again, you
can milk any type of Marsupial, you can milk a
primate, you can milk a goat, you can milk a cow, you
can milk a lot of different things. Dairy is a very
broad thing. Most people think white and black cow
on the side of a milk carton. Dairy is a wide
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variety. And depending on the market, it could be
determined in a variety of different ways.
Q. When you think about sort of the common
definition of dairy products, what would that be?
A. Milk, cheese, yogurt.
Q. Would it include the milk of a lizard, for
example?
A. Sure.
Q. That you might buy in the grocery store?
A. Sure. Why not? People buy strange stuff.
I'm not gonna make an assumption of somebody's choice
and what kind of milk they want to drink, or rub on
their skin, or whatever that may possibly be.
Q. But that's not something you've seen in a
grocery store before?
A. No, but I have seen Oleander milk that has
been sold as a beauty product.
Q. Do you think someone would describe that
farm as a dairying operation?
A. Potentially. If they had an idea that it
was taking milk from an animal, yes.
Q. So, in your mind, sort of the way you
interpret these terms is any possible --
A. Ag is -- I'll go back to my prior comment.
Ag is such a huge industry that overlaps in a lot of
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different ways, to many different things, to many
different people. So I've learned being married to a
very liberal, organic, fix yourself,
homeopathetic-type person, that the definitions on
this stuff is constantly changing. So I need to not
be closed minded about these categories, because
otherwise I'll be shocked.
Q. Do you think there is sort of a common
definition, and I'm not talking about Hendry County
specifically, but say if you polled everyone in the
United States and said "What's dairying?" Do you
think there would be a lot of variation about what
people said?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: At this point with the
prevalence of information that moves in this
country, I can't answer that question. I really
don't know. I could make some very
stereotypical assumptions that would be biased
and probably discriminatory, but I'm just not
willing to say that they would all say it comes
from a cow, because it could be offensive to
somebody that's lactose intolerant.
I mean, it could be a wide variety. What
about almond milk? That's in the diary aisle,
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and that's a common thing that you see on prime
time television in the commercials. The
definition of dairy I think is still being
redefined in this country, so I don't know how
that would turn out.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Okay. What about animal and poultry
husbandry?
A. Animal and poultry husbandry. Again, you
are getting a mama animal and a daddy animal
together, and you are making more animals.
(Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So I'd like you to just look at a few
definitions.
A. Oh, Mr. Webster. Sorry, I felt like it was
a standardized test, I'm not supposed to open it
until proctored.
Q. Go ahead and break the seal.
A. Okay.
Q. So, on the first page, if you could find
the definition of animal husbandry on the left-hand
column --
A. Okay.
Q. -- and most of the way down, and just read
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it for me.
A. Okay. "Animal husbandry: A noun, a
parenthetical reference of 1898, is a branch of
agriculture concerned with the production and care of
domestic animals."
Q. Do you agree with that definition?
A. That seems fairly limited. It's dated
1898, it's been around for awhile. It may need to be
redefined but overall, it seems like an okay
definition.
(Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. We can go through a couple of them, so the
next one is 3. Okay. Oh, actually, you can use the
hard copy. We have a hard copy.
A. Oh, wow. A well-read copy.
Q. Okay. So I think the first blue tab.
A. The first blue tab.
Q. Yeah.
A. Okay.
Q. If you could just go to that page, I
believe it's page 28.
A. All right.
Q. And so Animal Husbandry is on the right,
sort of near the top; could you read that there?
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A. There it is. "Animal husbandry: The
raising of domesticated animals as cattle, sheep,
horses, et cetera."
Q. Okay. Thank you. And do you agree with
that definition?
A. Generally, but I'd be curious to see what
et cetera means.
Q. You think et cetera would be interpreted in
terms of the other words in the definition?
A. Well, I think that's -- they spelled out
what they wanted to spell out, and then they have
encompassed a more broader scope by putting et
cetera, so I don't think it would be circular
reasoning for them to go back to what they have
already spelled out.
(Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. All right. So this one is now -- here you
go. So this one is from dictionary.com, and I
believe there's a few -- actually, no. Just the,
yeah, there's one on the first page, and then one on
the second page. If you could just read the one on
the first page.
A. Okay. "Animal husband is a noun, and it's
the science of breeding, feeding, and tending
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domestic animals, especially farm animals."
Q. Okay. And the second page, sort of halfway
down.
A. Okay, from the British Dictionary.
Definition of "Animal husbandry is also a noun. The
science of breeding, rearing, and caring for farm
animals."
Q. Do you agree with these definitions?
A. Going to the first one, generally. I don't
take any broad exception to it, other than
"especially farm animals." It just seems it's kind
of a clarification statement to give you an example,
but it doesn't mean that it's completely limited to
farm animals.
And then the second one is a little bit more
specific, has a, I'm assuming because it says British
Dictionary, that it's more a European approach. That
is more specific to farm animals, so I do take
exception to that, because it seems like it's too
limited of a definition.
(Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. All right. 5. So, same thing, there's
three actually on this page, and if you could read
each one.
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A. Okay. The first one, it's sourced at
American Heritage, is "The branch agriculture
concerned with care and breeding of domestic animals,
such as cattle, hogs, sheep and horses."
The next one is the Collins Dictionary, and
it's a noun. Agriculture is the -- "Animal Husbandry
is agriculture parenthetically referenced, as "the
science of breeding, rearing, and caring for farm
animals."
The last one is from the Random House, and
it's "the scientific study or the practice of
breeding and tending domestic animals, especially
farm animals."
(Exhibit 6 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Okay. Thank you. 6. Okay. So could you
read this definition for me?
A. It looks like it is cited from Cambridge
Advanced Learners Dictionary, and that is "the
farming of animals to produce foods, such as meat,
eggs, and milk."
Q. Okay. What would you say these definitions
have in common?
A. Some of them are very limited in scope, but
others are more broad. That's my first observation.
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Q. Any other observations?
A. The use of the term domestic, that is true.
They do also mention a variety of different animals.
It seems like there's a little bit of a discussion
that needs to be had between the farming animals, and
their referencing things like cattle, hogs, sheep,
and horses, et cetera, but then they also mentioned,
I think somewhere, that there was dog or a cat or
something, I may have misread that.
Q. I don't think that was in any of them.
A. But it just seems like some are more
comfortable with making specific examples, and others
just more broadly scope it. So it sounds like
there's a little bit more work to do to define this a
little bit better.
Q. Would you say that most of them use the
term domestic or domesticated animals?
A. Yes, ma'am, I think I said that.
Q. Another of them use the term farm
animals?
A. Some of them do, others don't.
Q. What's a farm animal?
A. It would be a wide variety of things, as
far as my perspective. It could includes some of
those animals that we mentioned there, but also, I
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mentioned I have experienced with snake farms and
ostrich farms, so it's a broad range of different
things. I've been exposed to alligator farms and
I've been exposed to these non-human primate
operations, which they are growing and rearing
non-human primates.
So for me, it is seems like these
definitions, although they are from very broad
dictionaries from a wide variety of different
originations, it seems like some of their definitions
give sort of a nod to some of these things, but they
seem to be limited. I think the world has advanced a
lot further than these definitions have
contemplated.
Q. So these are current definitions listed in
dictionaries online today, and you feel that they are
not current?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I think that by reference of
the first definition provided me, it was defined
in 1898, and I think the world has evolved a lot
since then.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. I was referencing the ones we printed out.
A. I don't know. They didn't give a date
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reference of when they cited that definition.
Q. What's a domestic animal?
A. It determines on what you are meaning by
domestic. Are you talking about something that's
been imported or exported, or are you talking
about --
Q. How would you define it?
A. A domestic beer versus an import beer. To
me, domestic tends to be more along the lines of
something that you've grown locally or that you've
produced locally.
Q. In terms of the word "animal."
A. In terms of animal?
Q. Or domestic animal, taking that term as one
term.
A. Something that has been cared for and is
fairly common, I would think. Like first thing that
comes to my mind when you talk about domestic animals
are the standard kindergarten definition of what a
farm animal is.
Q. And what would be the kindergarten
definition of a farm animal?
A. Maybe a cow, pig, chicken.
Q. So I'd like to go through a few more
definitions. So the first, actually is, so in
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Exhibit 2, if you could switch to the third page of
that document, or the fourth page of the document.
And if you could look on the left-hand column.
A. Okay.
Q. Halfway down. And could you read that
definition of domestic animal, please?
A. Domestic animal. Okay. "Domestic animal
is a noun, established in 1743, is any of various
animals (as the horse or sheep) domesticated so as to
live and breed in a tame condition."
Q. Do you agree with that definition?
A. Broadly, yes. Again, the first thing that
comes to mind is the date that it was established, in
1743, and so it may need review. Language has
changed significantly since then, so. Other than
that concern out of the gate, it seems a fair
definition.
Q. Okay. You can put this one aside again.
And now can we grab, does this one have domestic?
MS. THOMPSON COWAN: Yes.
MS. EBERLY: We'll go back to this one.
MR. LAPP: What exhibit is that?
MS. EBERLY: This is Exhibit 3.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So, I think it's on page 223. So, if you
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could look at the definition of "domestic," and just
read the fourth one.
A. So "Domestic" is an adjective. The fourth
interpretation of domestic is "domesticated: Tame,
said of animals."
Q. Okay. And do you agree with that
definition?
A. Again, broadly, yes.
(Exhibit 7 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. This is Exhibit 7. So if you could read
this definition for me.
A. "Domestic animal: The citation is
dictionaryreference.com. Noun, 1. an animal, as the
horse or cat, that has been tamed and kept by humans
as a work animal, food source, or pet, especially a
member of those species that have, through selective
breeding, become notably different from their wild
ancestors. With an Origin of domestic animal: 1850
to 1855."
Q. Do you agree with this definition?
A. Broadly. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Is there a particular part of it that you
disagree with?
A. The thing that's hanging me up is the pet
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part, because I know people that have weird pets that
act differently than some of the their wild
counterparts, such as a spider or different things
that normally would come and hide from a human, but
I've seen them do even tricks. So, again, I think
there's just some dated context on some of these
definitions that may need to be addressed.
Q. In your mind, is there a difference between
the origin of the word and the date at which the
definition was developed?
A. No. Not really. I can't really tell when
the definition was developed. There's not a
reference as to when it was accepted into this citing
of dictionary.com has provided.
Q. If you'll see below, it says "Based on
Random House Dictionary, Random House 2015."
A. Okay. Is that the definitions copyright of
2015 or that the copyright of this version of the
Dictionary in 2015? I'm not familiar with Copyright
Laws, so I don't know if the edition of 2015 thereby
makes everything current and it's acceptable, or if
it's an individual definition date, so. I'm not sure
how they define that.
(Exhibit 8 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
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Q. Okay. And could you just read this one for
me?
A. Okay. Merriam-Webster is the cited source.
"Domestic animal. Definition of domestic animal:
Any of various animals" (as of the horse or sheep),
I'm sorry, "(as the horse or sheep) domesticated so
as to live and breed in a tame condition."
Q. And what do you think about this
definition?
A. I can agree to it broadly, just like the
others. I really don't have anything that I take
exception to.
Q. Is there something that these definitions
have in mind that you've noticed?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I mean, they are making
references to having been exposed to some sort
of a treatment or otherwise to render them tame.
Tame condition, but I don't have any further
information from these documents to tell me what
they mean by "tame condition."
The term domesticated has, again,
approached itself into several of these, not
necessarily all. It's sort of been inferred by
the name of the definition, but domesticated as
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a verb or a descriptor is included in just a few
of these, not all of them.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you think that rhesus macaque monkeys
are a domesticated animal?
A. In the terms that they have been tamed?
Q. Just would you describe them as a domestic
animal?
A. I don't know if I know enough about the
species to make that qualification. I mean, I know
they are not -- if I'm looking at it from a Budweiser
than Heineken, then no, they are not a domesticated
animal, unless they were grown and birthed here
in the United States. But if I'm looking at it from
a tamed animal due to handling by humans or
treatment, then I would need to have more information
to make that definition.
Q. What about like a wild African monkey that
has been imported into the United States; would that
be a domestic animal?
A. No, of course not.
Q. So turning back for a moment to the
definitions of animal husbandry, do you recall that
several of them mentioned the raising of domestic
animals?
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A. Yes. Yes.
Q. So, in your mind, would raising rhesus
macaque monkeys qualify as animal husbandry under any
of those definitions?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: It could possibly, if by
treatment and time with the human exposure, and
the way they are being dealt with, that they
have become domesticated, they could potentially
form into those very limited scope definitions
that were provided, but within agriculture, it's
hard for me to agree with animal husbandry as
only being inclusive of the limited definitions
that have been provided domesticated animals,
because like I said in my opening preamble, that
to me, animal husbandry is mama animal, daddy
animal, get together and make baby animals. Not
really a clear understanding of anything more
than that.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you think that raising and selling wild
African imported monkeys to research, research
industries, would be considered animal husbandry
under any of the definitions that you've read?
A. It's a possibility. I'm not going to say
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it is or isn't, but it is something that could be
considered if they have been -- if there have been a
seed unit that was imported, and then has been
treated over time, has become more familiar with
humans, and the type of operation, then certainly.
But if it's just snatch and grab out of an island and
bring them over here, then they may need a little bit
more time and exposure to the farmer, or the rancher,
or I don't know what they call that industry, but to
begin to fit in that definition.
Q. Do you think that agriculture has anything
to do with the reason that animals are being raised?
So, for example, the snake farm example that you were
describing before, the snakes were farmed for their
meat and their pelt.
A. Well, there's also venomous snakes that are
raised for scientific research to make anti-venom,
and they are sent off to these different harvesting
centers. So, as far as this particular field, and I
assuming you are referring to the non-human primates
in your line of questioning, is if they are being
bred to be shipped off someplace else to have
research conducted on them, and there's a market for
that that's regulated at a Federal level, then by all
means. Just like there is with snakes that are being
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raised to develop medicines and anti-venom.
Q. Do you see how two reasonable people could
disagree about the definition of animal husbandry?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I could definitely see where
there could be a disagreement, but I could also
see a disagreement between what's a blue dress
and what's a white dress, as proved in the
social media in the last year.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So what's that disagreement sort of based
on, in your mind?
A. Relative experience, exposure to different
industries, life experiences, travel experiences, I
don't know. Whatever makes up a person's filter is
how they look at words and definitions, and how they
identify things.
Q. In terms of the Zoning Code, what's the
purpose of providing a definition in the Zoning Code,
in your opinion?
A. To clarify, to give meaning and
identification to what was intended.
Q. And who is the audience for that
clarification?
A. I think it's a little bit of everybody.
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It's the governing Board that wants to be held
accountable by that definition, or the staff to be
able to verify and confirm based upon that
definition, and for residents to be able to base off
that verification and confirmation of that
definition.
Q. In terms of reading the definition, so
residents read the definition, should it be given a
sort of lay person's, each word given a lay person's
understanding of what it means; do you think that's
reasonable?
A. On occasion, unless there was some
extenuating circumstances surrounding it that led us
to believe that it wasn't clear that it should be a
lay person's interpretation.
Q. What would those circumstances be?
A. Maybe something that's been redefined, such
as marriage.
Q. And in that circumstance, would it be
something that would have to be redefined in the
code, or would it just adopt a new understanding?
A. At some point. At some point it would have
to be made known to the code, and within a reasonable
time frame.
Q. But in your mind, do you need particular
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zoning expertise to read and understand the Land Use
Code?
A. It would be highly advisable that you have
someone to help you through it, because those
documents can be very laborious, just as a lay person
could pick up the Florida Statutes right now. They
can read it, but chances are they may miss something,
because not every person within the education system
of this country is able to interpret law. And Land
Use and Comp Plans are legal documents, and they can
sometimes be confusing.
Q. And in terms of that goes as well for the
definitions of terms?
A. It can. It can at times.
Q. Why do you think terms are defined in the
Zoning Code?
A. Well, to go back to my other point is to
try to set some common nomenclature that can be used
to hold things accountable, but again, they can be
dated.
Q. Can you sort of explain why you think a
facility that holds 3,200 primates in outdoor kennels
might be considered agriculture, whereas a facility
that may have a hundred or 200 cats in outdoor
kennels would be considered high intensity
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commercial?
A. I don't honestly don't know enough about
either one of the species to answer that
effectively.
Q. Just sort of your back of the envelope
take.
A. I think for one is that cat operations that
you are mentioning like that are not as highly
regulated. They don't have a lot of Federal
oversight or State oversight. And that's my
assumption. I mean, honestly, most of the time when
I see an operation like that, it's usually a mom and
pop that's working through maybe a registration
organization.
I don't know what registers cats, but for
dogs it's American Kennel Club or Westminster, or any
of those others that have regulations, but that's not
a governing entity. That's not a governing body.
But with these type of primates, you have U.S. Fish
and Wildlife involved, you have U.S.D.A. involved.
You have any other number of branches of government
that I can't even begin to think of, CDC, et cetera,
that are all engaged with this thing.
So that's where the clear definition for me
is between the two, is one is farming, and one is a
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whole different type of operation by simply oversight
from Federal and State levels.
Q. I think I'm confused. So I was talking
about why you think one is agriculture, and the other
is considered high intensity commercial. Do you
think that the oversight of Federal agencies has
anything to do with whether something is considered
high intensity commercial versus agriculture?
A. I think there's a little bit of both in
both of those definitions, but I think with a kitten
operation, I'm just not familiar enough with it to
really answer that intelligibly. With the primate
operation, due to the exposure that we have had
through this process, I've found out it's very highly
regulated. And so just like with, I'll go back to
your dairy definition, with a dairy cow, it's a
highly regulated industry.
I really don't see much difference between
that agriculture operation, and the other agriculture
operation. With the kittens, I know there's a lot of
things involved with that. I'm just not familiar
enough to be able to say why that has been classified
as high intensity within our Code, and the other is
not. I really don't know what that decision was
based off of.
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Q. Yeah. I'm sorry, I think I'm trying to get
to a different point, which is do you think an
industry being highly regulated would make it
agriculture?
A. If it has to deal with the growing and the
producing of animals, yes. But as far as it being
high intensity classified within our Code or Comp
Plan, I don't know why it was classified like that.
Q. But you don't think it was arbitrary to
classify it like that?
A. I do not know. Like I said, I don't
know.
Q. Just in your opinion.
A. In my opinion is that there are some things
within all of our policies from procurement to
otherwise that I don't understand why they did it.
As far as being arbitrary or not, that's an extremely
judgmental stance for me to take. I would rather say
that I'm clouded as to what their intent was.
Q. Does their intent make sense to you?
A. Without knowing where they were when they
made that definition or that determination, I can't
really say that. I would need more context around it
to be able to say yes, that makes sense, or no, it
doesn't. Right now it seems very confusing.
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Q. Do the animal shelters with the outdoor
kennels practice animal husbandry?
A. I would imagine it's kind of hard to keep a
daddy monkey and mommy monkey from getting together
in a kennel. Just, I've never been down there. I
don't know their best business practices. I was not
one to go down and visit with the site visit to see
those facilities, so I don't know what their
management practices are there.
Q. I'm sorry, I was talking about animal
shelters.
A. Oh.
Q. So we were just saying, we were talking
about animal shelters with outdoor kennels, which are
classified as high intensity commercial. What I'm
asking is, is an animal shelter, you know, like that,
that houses homeless animals, does that practice
animal husbandry?
A. Maybe by accident, but as far as it being a
forthright part of their business practice, I think
it's probably something that they had to contemplate
as being an accidental operation, but I think that's
probably not the goal.
Q. Is the goal of a primate, one of these
primate facilities, to practice animal husbandry?
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A. I think that's something that all of them
have agreed upon is to produce baby monkeys.
Q. Do you know anything about their business
model?
A. No. I don't. All of these predated my
administration, and I've purposefully left them alone
because my understanding is that they are compliant
with the Code.
Q. So, on that specific subject, when did you
first learn about the practice or the policy of
treating primate breeding facilities as animal
husbandry under the agriculture --
A. I couldn't tell you the date, but IT'S been
within the last year since a lot of the news started
picking up. I want to say my first, and I'm probably
wrong, but I think my first exposure was an expose
say that Jane Velez-Mitchell had done. I can't
remember when it was, to be honest with you. It's
definitely been within the last 12 months.
Q. And regarding the -- so I'm speaking sort
of more specifically about the policy or the
interpretation of the Zoning Code?
A. Well, once somebody pops up in the media, I
start asking questions. I want to inform myself, and
so I found out at that point that it had been
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interpreted as a buy right within the Code, and that
the Board was clear on that, and staff had verified
and confirmed it from that point on.
Q. Who told you about it, if you remember?
A. I think it was a conversation between the
attorney and Miss Emblidge, the Planning and
Community Development Director.
Q. Was this an in-person conversation?
A. It was in person. It was in person.
Things like that I just run down the hall and hey,
tell me about it.
Q. Okay. And this was about the time that the
first news article came out?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And do you know what the basis for
the opinion that a macaque breeding facility that
sells monkeys to bio-medical research is properly
zoned in agriculture; can you describe the basis of
that?
A. To be honest with you, not really. I know
it was something that was discussed at a Board
meeting, the Board gave a decision based on
information provided to them by the Planning
Director. And I think the County Attorney at some
point had weighed in on the issue. The Board said
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yes, that's the way we want it defined, go forth
verify and confirm from this date forward. And
that's the genesis of how, I think, the first
facility came to be, and then the second, and now we
are dealing with the current one we are talking
about.
Q. Do you know if that's a written policy?
A. I believe there's probably meeting minutes
that echo the will of the Board, which is something
we use quite frequently as a matter of policy. I
think there's also a memorandum that explained the
analysis from those early 2000 meetings. Year 2000
meetings, I'm sorry.
But just like any other small local county
government, ma'am, as far as written policies go, we
haven't evolved to that point where there's a book of
policy that you can say here it is, and as an
individual segment. A lot of times we are going back
on a scavenger hunt to make sure that we are getting
the meeting minutes and the decisions from the Board.
Q. So, you mentioned that the Board made a
decision. Do you think it's the Board's job to make
that kind of a decision?
A. Yes.
Q. And not your job?
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A. They are setting the definitions, and they
are setting the decisions of how things are
interpreted, and it's staff's job to carry out that
policy decision.
Q. Other than the memo that you mentioned from
the 2000 meetings, are you aware of any other
documents that talk about this, this policy?
A. Other than the early 2000, that's about it,
as far as I'm aware of at the moment. As I
mentioned, we have had several fires brighten up. I
had intended to prepare better for this, but
apologetically, I didn't have time, so.
Q. Understood. Are you aware of whether there
have been discussions about the policy, other than in
the 2000 meetings?
A. Not that I'm aware of, other than we have
bantered internally to make sure that we clearly
understood the decision of the Board, and we were
verifying and confirming moving forward. Now, I made
mention at the opening that I did send a very
hot-headed, temper-driven memo because I was just fed
up with controversy that morning, and I overstepped
my bounds, very clearly. And then subsequently,
recalled that memo because it was not within my
power, it was something that I had stepped into the
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Board's world, and it was not mine.
Q. We will get to the memo. So other than
that memo and the kind of conversations that you had
around the news article, have you had any other
discussion with the County Commissioners about that
policy?
A. No more than just reporting to them that
this was the decision of the Board in early 2000's,
this is how staff has been verifying and confirming
since that date.
Q. Okay. So, just taking some sort of -- some
animals that might come up in the County's Planning
process. Are you aware at all of the Florida Fish
and Wildlife Commission Classification of Exotic
Animals?
A. Not off the top of my head, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So, for example, Class 2 animals
include a variety of monkeys, including Macaques,
also includes leopards, jackals, wolverines,
giraffes. So let's say someone wanted to come in and
build a giraffe farm with, you know, a thousand
giraffes over 30 acres, and they wanted to breed the
giraffes, and sell them to zoos. In your mind, is
that the kind of facility that might need a heads up
to the Board of County Commissioners?
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MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I would probably just pop off
and e-mail, and let them know it's coming
through, and that it could potentially be
verified and confirmed if the land is in the ag
zoning that allows animal husbandry. I would
certainly be confirming with legal at all
elements of this process, and make sure that we
weren't doing something inappropriate.
And if we did determine that it needed more
direction or decision from the Board to further
define or refine how we are verifying, what we
are verifying or confirming, or the language of
that particular provision in the Comp Plan or
Land Use Code, then we would put it on the
agenda and move forward. But again, there's a
lot of little boxes we would have to tick off
before I put it on the agenda.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Would that be, that particular facility
that I was discussing, would that be the kind of
facility that if it came before you, you would
escalate to the Board?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: If it did not fit within the
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zoning of agriculture, I mean, if their intent
is to breed animals and it falls within how the
definition of animal husbandry has been defined
by the Board, then I would have to uphold the
interpretation of the Board and verify and
confirm.
Now, if they were trying to put this
giraffe breeding operation in a residential
district, that's a whole different game. That
requires a zoning change, Land Use Map
Amendment, the whole nine. So it would go to
the Board. It would have to go through a more
rigid process.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. But if it was coming into agriculture, for
example, and there was a --
A. I think we would be seriously looking at it
as a by-right provision.
Q. Let's say there was a neighborhood right
next to it.
A. If it's zoned agriculture, it's a by-right
provision.
Q. So putting aside for a second the right,
would you or the Board notify neighboring landowners,
regardless of whether it's a right?
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A. I think we would have to look at it on a
more in-depth case basis and see what is actually
surrounding it, how far away is the neighborhood, is
it surrounded by ag, do the property owners have any
reasonable thought process that they could be dealing
with agricultural-type operations when they bought
the property.
I mean, if you buy in a subdivision that's
surrounded by agriculture, I mean, buyer beware. You
know what you are getting into whenever you buy the
property. So, I think we would have to do a deeper
dive onto the elements of said residential
subdivision or meaning before I go off and say we
would do anything exceptional.
Q. But you would look into, for example, how
close the facility was to the residential --
A. I would see what was reasonable.
Q. And so you think, let's say you have a
house that's right next to a agricultural zone.
Should those landowners reasonably expect that, let's
say, a hippopotamus farm that breeds hippopotami and
sells them to zoos, to come in right next door?
A. I think having dealt with some real estate
in the past, buyer beware is a very real thing. And
if they were wanting to buy that property, they
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should have checked around what the neighbors were
allowed to do before they got in there. So, if a
hippopotamus farm moves in to an agricultural zone
and it's allowable by-right use, the property owner
that owns that agricultural land is allowed to do it.
And the residents that bought his house right next to
it, sorry.
Q. So, let's say they brought their house
years ago, before any of the facilities were -- the
primate facilities, for example, were in the County.
Do you think the same logic applies, buyer beware?
A. I think so.
Q. So, hippopotami in your back yard --
A. I think buyer beware is always applicable,
particularly in this state.
Q. Are you aware that hippopotami kill more
people in Africa than any other animal?
A. No, ma'am. I wasn't aware of that factoid.
Q. In your mind, does that have any relevance
to this question?
A. I mean, no offense to the lady that gave me
the factoid, please don't take that. I'd probably
independently verify your stat, and then contemplate
in that needed to be changed, in my mind, if there
needed to be something else done.
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Q. But as a sort of matter of best practice,
you wouldn't feel it was necessary to notify
neighboring land owners in that situation?
A. Unless there it was compelling reasoning
that could be obtrusive into that person's life, and
that would have to be compelling reasoning, then I
would probably just allow it to roll as standard.
But if it was something like you are mentioning,
where a hippopotamus can come out and kill an entire
subdivision, well, I mean, the Rambo hippo might be a
problem, and we may need to talk about it, but, that
would be an extenuating circumstance.
And there would have to be a lot of evidence
about the hippopotamus operation that would tell me
that they experience a lot of escapes, and they are
not properly managed, and not properly regulated.
Q. Do you know sort of whether any of those
questions were asked of the primate breeding
facility?
A. I have no clue. As I mentioned, this all
predated my administration, so I'm literally kind of
answering this in the vacuum of not having dealt with
this at all, personally.
MS. EBERLY: Why don't we break. Do you
want to break?
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MR. LAPP: Let me just ask as a
suggestion -- we can go off the record for
scheduling.
(Lunch recess was taken.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So could you talk about your document
retention policy?
A. Ad nauseum, no. I know we have to comply
with the Public Records Law through the Statute. I
know we just wrote a Public Records Policy document
outlining procedures. That's fairly new, but to give
you any details about it, no, ma'am. I haven't even
cracked the -- I haven't broke the seal on that one.
Q. Do you typically keep your work e-mails?
A. Always keep my work e-mails. And if you
are talking about my personal policy, not my company
policy --
Q. No, your County's policy.
A. The County policy is as I outlined it.
It's taken the State Statute, rolled into a policy,
and then it's being implemented. And that I have
confidence with because our attorney's office has
managed it the entire part of the way.
The way I handle my business with my notes is
I don't do anything by paper. I'm 35 years old,
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everything is done by e-mail. So, even my meeting
notes are typed into an e-mail, and I e-mail it to
myself. So that's how I make that accommodation, so
that individuals like yourself that may be interested
in my public records, it's easily accessible from our
IT Department.
Q. And like every type of file, e-mails, memo
files are kept in the regular course of business?
A. Yes, they are kept in the course of
business. What I prefer is for it to be scanned, and
kept electronically on the server. I don't like
having any paper in my office. In fact, if we could
go paperless, I would prefer that.
Q. We might have talked about this, but how do
you typically communicate with the Board, is it by
e-mail, phone?
A. My answer earlier was by e-mail and
phone.
Q. Do you write memo's to the Board?
A. Occasionally I'll write memo's, yes.
Q. When you communicate with the Board, is it
important for you to be precise, to be accurate?
A. Absolutely. I don't want to misrepresent
anything that I'm saying. And so often times I will
circulate my information amongst my other staff
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people to make sure that I have my information
correct.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. So I think we are going
to have another exhibit.
(Exhibit 9 marked for identification.)
MS. THOMPSON COWAN: This is Exhibit 9.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. I was the author of it.
Q. Is this a true and accurate representation
of a memo that you sent on March 23rd of this year --
A. Yes.
Q. -- to Margaret Emblidge?
A. Yes, ma'am. It is a draft memo, to be
specific.
Q. How long did it take you to write this
memo?
A. This is the memo I've been mentioning
throughout the course of our deposition, where I was
aggravated that morning.
Q. We are going to talk about your feelings, I
just want to talk about this document.
A. I'm giving you the context of the time
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frame. It probably took me less than 30 minutes to
write this.
Q. Did you -- I'm sorry, continue.
A. That's why there was a draft sent to the
attorney and Miss Emblidge to discuss. What's
missing from this is the e-mail that this was
attached to.
Q. What did that e-mail say?
A. Please review for discussion and revise.
Something to that content, because it was in draft
form.
Q. Did you proofread it?
A. I did, to the best of my knowledge. I felt
like it was accurate, but again, like I said before,
I'm not a subject matter expert in Development Code,
so I wanted my Attorney and Planning Director to
review it.
Q. And you typed this up on a computer?
A. Yes, I did. My work computer at my office.
Q. Did you print it out?
A. Did I print it out? No. I sent it
electronically.
Q. Did you save it as a PDF file?
A. It's probably saved as a Word document, and
my documents are on my desk top.
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Q. When did you start thinking about writing
this memo?
A. About ten minutes before I sat down to
write it.
Q. And so you wrote it in half an hour?
A. Approximately, yes, ma'am.
Q. Is there something special you need to do
to put it on County letterhead?
A. No, ma'am. It's just a template that I
write in.
Q. Do you typically use County letterhead for
draft documents?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Was there a reason that you didn't put
draft on the memo itself?
A. Because the e-mail that was the vehicle
carrying this attachment stated as such, that it was
for review, revision, and comment.
Q. So I notice that you sent it to Margaret
Emblidge, and you CC'd Mark Lapp, and also the Board
of County Commissioners?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you decide to CC the County
Commissioners?
A. Anytime that I'm talking about how we
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conduct business that reflects their policy decision,
I try to inform my Board. So it's a standard
practice for me. And again, with it being a draft, I
was contemplating at the time sending this to the
Board, so they'd be aware of it.
Q. Okay. So just talking about the subject,
you know, the subject matter, the e-mail -- or the
memo, excuse me. You wrote "It is apparent the prior
administration had a level of comfort and set
precedent for administrative review being sufficient
for these types of projects," speaking about the
non-human primate facilities that are the subject of
this lawsuit. What did you mean by that?
A. I meant that they felt very comfortable
with the precedent and the definition as set by the
Board at that time, with the makeup of the Board at
that time, and they had a level of comfort with it.
Q. And you went on. "Controversial projects
under my administration will be processed differently
and highlight our agency's commitment to improve
transparency." What did you mean by that?
A. I was getting at my level of frustration,
that I felt like we needed to look at not only this
particular project that I reference, but also power
plants, landfills, anything that could be possibly
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hitting on that controversial margin.
Again, my temperament at the time of the
writing was aggravated, frustrated. And so I,
especially when I write under those conditions, I
threw that in there to highlight that I do have
experience with a very strong Planning and Zoning
Government, as in Gadsden County, where practically
everything went to public hearing. But that was also
attributable to the fact that they had very -- a very
strong tie to the State Government, as well.
So, it's an apple and orange comparison, but
I was just in a, I don't want to say a fit of rage,
but I was extremely aggravated when I wrote this
memo.
Q. Do you typically write memos when you are
extremely aggravated?
A. On occasion, to be honest with you. I'm
not gonna lie. Because usually when things pop up, I
have to address it, and I don't have the luxury of
waiting a long amount of time. And so I try to take
action, and at least put something down in writing
that I can massage, I can work through. Obviously
this was not sent to the Board, this was sent to two
people by an e-mail. It was a draft form, this did
not go to the Board. It is in the draft form having
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the Board CC'd, and the County Attorney, but please
remember, this is a template document.
What consists of the template as a makeup of
this document? If I will turn to, your example, this
headline of the letterhead, memorandum, the date
filed, the to, the from, the subject, the line, and
typically I am CC'ing the Board and the County
Attorney. So if I take you to another document or
any other document, and I just pulled up my template
on my desktop, you are going to find that those
elements are consistent in every single one of my
drafts.
Q. So this memo was never sent to the Board?
A. The Board has never laid eyes on this memo,
and to my knowledge, they have no knowledge of it.
Q. So given that you've proofread the memo,
did you think to remove the CC before you sent it on,
just in case someone might misunderstand the intent
of it to go to the Board?
A. No. If you look at parenthetical, it was
for Internal Communication Only for us. It was a
draft format. It's my standard practice, and I
understand your point, that it's a little sloppy and
a little bit risky that I put that in there, but to
be honest, I never contemplated this memo getting out
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of the bounds of its draft state and becoming a part
of the Discovery process, so.
Q. Mentioning the template, if you'll look at
the top, can you just look at the word "memorandum"?
A. Um-hmm. There's a misspelling. It's part
of the draft issue.
Q. Would that --
A. I have to fix that on every single
template, every single time.
Q. Your template has a misspelling of
"memorandum"?
A. Um-hmm. I have to fix it every time.
Q. Okay.
A. It's a macro-locked, and I don't know how
to fix it.
Q. Okay.
A. My IT guy has got more important things to
do than fix a spelling error.
Q. So going back to the subject matter of the
memo. You kind of wrote "controversial projects will
be processed differently and highlight our agency's
commitment to improve transparency." What kind of
improved transparency did you think was necessary?
A. To be honest with you, it was more of a
leading statement to encourage Miss Emblidge to look
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at ways that we could improve transparency through
the process. I really didn't have anything
contemplated when I wrote it.
Q. But in terms of transparency from -- from
whose perspective, the Board, the public?
A. All of the above. Making sure that our
e-tracking system is updated with frequent
information for by-right projects. If there's
something that is not by-right that is an exception,
to make sure that it goes through the public hearing
process, or goes to a public meeting. Make sure we
are advertising, make sure it's making it into the
paper, make sure it's on social media if it's really
controversial. A variety of different things. It
was a complete shotgun statement.
Q. So why do you think the public was
surprised, or why is it controversial to treat the
primate breeding facility --
A. Honestly, it was less about the facility
and more about the proverbial wave of e-mails and
letters that I was receiving from people that do not
live in Hendry County, both International, and within
the Continental United States that were weighing in
on this opinion, and quite honestly, I was frustrated
by it, particularly when they ended up crashing my
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e-mail.
Q. So by "improved transparency," you didn't
mean any kind of further public notice about
controversial projects?
A. It was a shotgun approach. It could have
included that, it could not have. Basically it was
the highlights for Miss Emblidge to have transparency
at the forefront of her mind for all projects.
Q. And I'm just trying to understand what you
mean by "transparency"?
A. Like I said, make sure we advertise
meetings, make sure that all of our documents that
are accessible to the public, put through our
e-tracking system on our website is up-to-date,
current, and easy to get to, make sure that we are
responsive to information requests, get out articles
on, you know, different types of projects that we are
undertaking the public may want to know about through
social media.
A variety of things is what I could define as
transparency. Now, how Miss Emblidge took my
guidance on this, and interpreted in accordance to
Comp Plan and Code Enforcement, verification and
confirmation, we would have to talk about it, but I
can literally tell you it was taking buckshot,
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shooting at the barn, and just covering it.
Q. Well, let's talk about it because actually
you were more specific about what you meant. You
said you issued sort of a directive, "if we receive
future projects related to non-human primate
operations, or any other operation that might create
public concern of any kind related to animal
husbandry or specialty farming must be reviewed
through the public hearing process in accordance with
Section 1" --
A. I did drill into that on that issue, and to
be honest, I had no right to make that assertion.
Q. I just want to understand why you issued
that particular directive.
A. Again, I'll go back to my reference to
Gadsden County, where basically everything went to a
public meeting. They had a very different Board. It
was very discombobulated, and they were not
consistent. So everything went to public meeting.
So, in my -- under my anger, I wrote this out there
as a knee-jerk reaction. I went back to what I knew.
Q. So had you -- did you -- had you memorized
Section 1.51.1.10?
A. No. I looked it up real quick. I'm a fast
study.
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Q. So, how could that be studied as a
knee-jerk reaction?
A. Because I can look at it in five to ten
minutes, and say I know what I want do, and I want to
cite something and make this legit. So, I hopped
into it. My mind works very fast, ma'am.
Q. So you had to look through the Code, you
didn't know exactly where the public meeting
provisions of the Code were?
A. No. And in fact, to be very specific for
it, I think I actually grabbed my Code book and
walked down to Miss Emblidge's office and said
"Where's the public hearing provision within this
code?" I didn't tell her what it was about, she just
pointed it out, and I went back to my office.
Q. So, given that you had been doing that, why
didn't you just have a conversation with her about
this, why did you issue a memo?
A. Again, I was aggravated. I didn't
necessarily want to have to deal with someone
face-to-face. Again, I'm 35 years old. I am much
more comfortable typing something behind a screen
than I am dealing with someone face-to-face,
particularly when I'm angry. My position is not
suited to have a temperament issue. If I lose my
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temper, it does more harm than good. So, my
intention was to do this in a very sterile-type
environment through e-mail, and just get the thought
out and circulated. That's why.
Q. And what was Miss Emblidge's response to
your memo?
A. She actually did not respond, to my
knowledge.
Q. Did you have any conversation that -- about
the memo with anyone else?
A. I did. With our attorney.
Q. When did that happen?
A. Within one hour of me sending it.
Q. And why did -- who initiated that
conversation or why did you have that conversation?
A. The attorney called me.
Q. Oh, so did you CC him?
A. No. I emailed the attorney and Miss
Emblidge with the draft document.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, he is CC'd on the e-mail as a formal
acknowledgement that he is to receive this, but with
the e-mail in draft form, it only went to Mr. Lapp
and to Miss Emblidge.
Q. Okay. And what did you discuss, in terms
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of the memo?
MR. LAPP: Objection. Privilege.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. So did you ever consider sending this to
the Board?
A. No. After our conversation, I was actually
en route to a spring training game. And as I was
pulling into the parking lot of Jet Blue Stadium to
catch the Red Sox, I realized my statement was
defining and directing, and not verifying and
confirming. And so therefore, it was not in my
control, it was out of my County Administrator
sandbox, and I hopped into the County Commissioner's
sandbox inappropriately, and I needed to repeal this
draft before it became fact or became part of our
operation.
Q. So when did you, I know you were just
describing the situation when you had that
realization, but when, when did that happen in
relation to when you sent the e-mail?
A. Within an hour, hour and 15 minutes. I
literally was on the phone with my attorney on I-75
headed to Jet Blue Park.
Q. And is there any kind of e-mail or other
written documents in which you retracted the memo?
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A. There is a follow-up e-mail to this that
should be Monday, March 23rd, around 1:00 o'clock
that should be in the file that says that I'm
retracting this -- I'm paraphrasing horribly -- I'm
calling this back, and it's no longer an issue.
We'll discuss at some future date.
Q. And have you ever discussed it?
A. No, ma'am. We haven't.
Q. Why not?
A. Primarily because we are waiting to see
what happens with this lawsuit.
Q. Is what happens with this lawsuit -- I
don't see how that has anything to do with your
opinion about the proper process?
A. It is just my opinion that I think we need
to see how the Court's rule on this before I make any
further judgment on the particular topic at hand.
Q. Do you feel it's your place as County
Administrator to provide your opinion about matters
to the Board?
A. I think in a lot of ways I have opportunity
to express opinion, but when it comes to matters of
this, where they have clearly defined their position,
that I need to not be a robot, but to basically
uphold their policy direction, whether I agree with
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it or not. And at certain points, if we were ever to
get to a point where our level of disagreement was
too far, then I need to find another place for
employment.
Q. So about that, that policy that was being
referred to here.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And we can put this away for now. So you
are aware of how that policy was developed?
A. Within the three and a half minutes that I
took a look at it, I only read it directly out of the
book, cited it as a reference, and rocked on.
Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Not the Land Development
Code.
A. Okay.
Q. About the primate policy, in general, that
was developed in 2000?
A. From what I explained to you in my prior
comments, yes, ma'am.
Q. Are you aware exactly how that issue came
before the Board?
A. No, not really. I mean, I think I could
probably dredge it up out of the background of my
memory, but it's not something that I dwelled on.
Q. What do you know about it at all?
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A. I think it may have been PPI, Primate
Products when they came in the early 2000's. And
there was -- I know there was a letter by the
Planning and Zoning Director at the time. I forget
Easton Bircher, is that -- I think that's correct.
There had to be some sort of, some sort of discussion
with the Board. I think there's some meeting
minutes, according to it.
I'm really reaching here trying to remember
everything involved, but I think it was a clear
definition. I think later on, a County Attorney,
Kate English, even gave a further legal opinion about
it, which was upheld by the Board, and kind of given
as a definition and a decision that yup, we interpret
it that way, that's what we want to have happen.
Q. Do you know if this matter was on an agenda
at the Board meeting?
A. Oh, that's a level of detail that I can't
answer. I don't know.
Q. And do you know whether Commissioner Taylor
was at that meeting?
A. Well, she's been on the Board nearly 20
years, so if it fell within that time frame, she
quite possibly is on that Board.
Q. Do you know of any other Commissioners that
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are on the Board now that might have been in that
meeting?
A. I think it's been a complete turnover.
Q. Other than Commissioner --
A. Other than Commissioner Taylor. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay. So now --
(Exhibit 10 marked for identification).
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Sir, now I just want you to look at an
e-mail. Do you recognize this document?
A. Vaguely, but yes.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. Well, if I'm to believe that it comes from
my e-mail address, that is my e-mail address at the
top of the page.
Q. Is this a fair and accurate representation
of an e-mail exchange between you, Sarah Catala, and
going back, Commissioner Turner, and some other
individuals?
A. I agree.
Q. Okay. So if you could turn to the second
page.
A. Okay.
Q. The e-mail from Susie Campbell.
A. Um-hmm.
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Q. This was sent to the Board of the
Commissioners?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Do you know Miss Campbell?
A. Nope.
Q. Have you reviewed or read her e-mail
before?
A. I probably did the day that this was sent,
but probably haven't touched it since then.
Q. So you've never spoken with her?
A. No, ma'am, I haven't. Not that I recall.
I may have seen her at Dunkin Donuts and not known
it.
Q. And just to be clear, the e-mails like this
would be something that you would keep in your
regular course of business, file away?
A. Yes, ma'am. I don't delete a thing. It
stays within my Outlook inbox, so that it's
accessible by the word search.
Q. Okay. So, regarding the e-mail from Susie,
do you know whether any of the Commissioners
responded to that e-mail in any way, by phone or
e-mail?
A. Other than Commissioner Turner, no.
Q. Did Commissioner Turner respond to Susie?
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A. I don't know if he responded to Susie, but
he definitely directed us to provide him some
information, or asked us to provide him some
information. Now, as far as his interaction with
Miss Campbell, I have no idea.
Q. Okay. So you don't know whether anyone --
A. No, ma'am. I don't know whether anybody
talked to Mrs. Campbell, or Miss Campbell.
Q. Why do you think she was surprised about
the primate facility?
A. As I mentioned in any prior comments, it
was a buyer beware issue. She probably wasn't
contemplating agricultural uses happening so close,
or within her region, and just kind of taken by
surprise, which happens a lot.
Q. You don't think she was aware that the area
next to her was zoned for agriculture?
A. I would only assume so. I'm just now
reading this after two years of not even seeing it.
Q. So we have been talking about e-mails, you
mentioned that your e-mail was crashed?
A. I'm overexaggerating with that. Let me be
very clear. I had so much volume coming in, my
e-mail account was not crashed, it was just so full,
I went from zero to 22,000 in a matter of two hours,
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that I could not filter through. So, I didn't lose
any documents. I want to be very clear.
The definition of crash means something was
lost, and there was data recovery effort. That never
happened. I'm basically saying I was bombarded with
e-mails, if that's a better way to say it. I could
not filter through between what was the forum that
was being sent through by the activists group, versus
what could have been County business, or residents,
or anything as that time. To further explain what
was going on. There's been no loss of documents.
Q. I understand. So, in terms of e-mails
about the primate facility or facilities, do you have
any sense of whether, or have you seen ones coming
from people in Hendry County in particular?
A. If I had, there's probably less than six
people.
Q. How would you know that?
A. Just trying to keep a tally. I have a
little mental thing that I'm doing on this issue to
make sure that I'm getting an understanding of what
does Hendry County residents want, versus what the
coastal community want, what's kind of the
penetration point Internationally. Really, it's very
anecdotal. It's not scientific.
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It's just kind of a running tally in my head.
I'm probably off by one or two, but the way my mind
works is I deal fairly well with numbers, so I feel
pretty confident you are not in just in Fenway on
this, I'm probably between first and second base.
It's less than a dozen, I can tell you that much,
that has been Hendry County resident-driven
complaints, or issues of concern, or even accolades
for what we have done. Now, if you want to talk
about coastal, statewide, nationally,
internationally, I've got probably close to 150
thousand something e-mails.
Q. Do you have any way of knowing where each
e-mail is coming from without opening it up?
A. Well, I have to open them up to see where
they are coming from, but I also -- we have the main
registry that can track where it came from, and all
of that. If we started working through that issue,
we could tell you specifically what the metrics, if
that's what you want, but.
Q. No, I'm just asking if you had done that
yet.
A. Even the physical letters that come in,
every physical letter that I get, I check to see
where it's coming from. Arizona, Pennsylvania,
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Indiana are in the lead.
Q. So this e-mail was sent to Commissioner
Turner, and so I'd like to just go up one e-mail.
And he said that "I'm under the impression that we
have sent out all the necessary notifications"?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Do you know what he meant by that?
A. He always assumes that there's a public
notification process, and he tends to forget that we
have by-right provisions. He defaults to that
there's some sort of a notification process. That's
atypical of him in the my last two and a half years
of dealing with him. With this particular matter,
once we educated him that the process was a by-right,
then he was fine.
Q. In terms of the primate facilities, in
particular, given that it was a Board policy not to
bring it before, you know, to do it administratively,
why do you think that he was misunderstanding that
policy then?
A. Probably because he hadn't seen it in
awhile. If you've ever met Commissioner Turner, he's
more ADD than I am. And I love the guy like a
brother, don't get me wrong. He and I get along and
fight like brothers from time to time, but trying to
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get him to focus for more than a few minutes on an
issue? I wish I could say that he had a great memory
retention as well, but most likely, if you ever meet
him, you'll understand. He goes zero to 150 miles an
hour. He probably just defaulted on basic
procedures, and didn't remember the context of this
particular project.
Q. So you don't have any knowledge of
whether -- what he meant by it was on at least one
other Board agenda quite some time ago?
A. I don't know what he's referring to. It
hadn't happened under my tenure. This was literally,
I think, less than two months since I had been on the
job, so I don't have that history of reference.
Q. Okay. Did you ask Commissioner Turner
about this statement, other than in your e-mail
above?
A. No. This was pretty much the context of
our discussion. I was just letting him know that
staff would be ready to answer any questions if it
came up at the meeting.
Q. So, in that e-mail that you responded, you
said you would have Sarah look into the past line up
for clearance on this development; what did you mean
by that?
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A. Just what was the process of getting this
approved. Once we find out it was by-right, then it
was all said and good. Then she sent a write up in
her e-mail at the time stamped at nine o'clock.
"Here is my write-up on SoFlo Ag. Please let me know
if there are any changes." It's a summary, and that
sufficed for the Commissioner, and I just said "Looks
good." I didn't find any spelling errors, I didn't
find anything that raised any eyebrows in my opinion
at 6:30 in the morning, and I sent it on to the
chairman.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. If we could turn to
that memo very quickly. This is 11, I believe.
(Exhibit 11 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. That's the attachment to Miss Catala's
e-mail that I was just discussing.
Q. Is this a fair and accurate representation
of that memo that we have been discussing?
A. It looks like it.
Q. Why specifically did Miss Catala write this
e-mail or this memo?
A. Because I inferred that I wanted her to be
able to field questions at the next meeting. And
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Miss Catala tends to be a little anal retentive at
times, so she went ahead and typed up this letter and
sent it to us, so that there was some fair and
distributable record that we could all operate off of
at the meeting should Miss Campbell, I believe that
was inferred, or anyone else were to show up at the
meeting, and we would need to address their concerns.
Q. Did you speak with her about this memo?
A. Sarah? On that day, no.
Q. Do you know what sources she relied on to
prepare this?
A. I do not know what she pulled out
specifically to write this, but I can assume that it
was the Comp Plan, Land Development Code, Meeting
Minutes, or otherwise. She was very good about going
to her sources.
Q. So Commissioner Turner mentioned that he
wanted to -- he said he wanted to know what our
expectation is at the Board meeting for letting the
public know what steps we have actually taken and
what is left to be done?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Do you feel that this memo answers those
questions?
A. I think it did.
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Q. Does it proved the full information that
the Commissioners would need to communicate the
County's role in the primate breeding facility zoning
process?
A. I mean, I think to be able to give a full
accurate representation, it probably would have taken
five or six pages, but I think on this specific issue
that was addressed by Mrs. Campbell, that it did a
fair job.
Q. Okay. So, other than the e-mails we have
just discussed, have you communicated in any way, and
the memo we mentioned, with any County Commissioners
or Commissioners about the SoFlo Ag facilities, the
most recent one?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Tell me what you know about what the
Commissioners knew about the SoFlo Ag facility?
A. What I know that the Commissioners know
about the SoFlo Ag? Just that the few that were on
the Board got to see a, you know, this write up. I
don't know if they saw this particular write up, but
I know they had access to Sarah. How much in depth
conversation they had with her about this, I'm not
sure. I honestly couldn't even tell you what
knowledge they have of this. I'd be speaking on
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their behalf, and I'm really not comfortable with
that.
Q. You don't know when they learned about
it?
A. I couldn't. I don't know, ma'am.
Q. And you don't know whether they have ever
met with representatives of --
A. I can't speak to that I don't know.
Q. Do you know if any of them have discussed
this with the Hendry County Economics Development
Council?
A. Other than Commissioner Turner, no. But
Commissioner Turner had alluded to me in this e-mail
that he would have copied Gregg, meaning Gregg
Gillman. I don't see that name spelled anywhere
around here that could even refer to anybody else,
that he would normally have copied him. So, I can
only infer from that reference that he had talked to
EDC members about this.
Q. Is there anyone other than the
Commissioners themselves who would know about these
communications between the Commissioners and the
company or the EDC?
A. Again, inferring that there is putting the
EDC into this, I would say members of the EDC, maybe
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the EDC Executive Board. I'm reaching on that,
though. That's a very grey shot in the dark that,
you know, Gregg is kind of an odd duck. Sometimes he
tells people everything, sometimes he keeps things
very close to the vest. I can't account for what
Gregg would have done.
Q. Do you have any understanding of his
involvement in the process of this company coming
here to the County?
A. Before I got here, I don't know.
Q. So you are not aware of whether he was the
primary point person for the EDC with the County?
A. I'm sure he was. That's his normal role on
an every day basis. I can tell that you much, but as
far as what he did to serve in that capacity, I can't
tell you. I don't know.
Q. How many facilities are there in Hendry
County that house Macaque monkeys?
A. I believe there's three locations.
Q. Can you name them?
A. Well, two locations. Sorry. Primate
Products that's active near the Hendry/Collier line,
Mannheimer, which is right here on State Road 80, and
SoFlo Ag, if it would ever be built would be the
third.
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Q. How many monkeys are housed in the
facilities in total?
A. No clue.
Q. What do you know about the facilities,
anything?
A. Just that they meet Florida Building Code,
and that they are compliant with our Land Development
Code and Comp Plan.
Q. You mentioned agencies that might oversee
them. How do you know that information?
A. In our recent discussions. I know Miss
Emblidge has been conducting a notice, or an
investigation into their Code Compliance, and it's
popped up, and they were some of the agencies that we
conferred with.
Q. But you've never visited any of them?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Other than the e-mails that we have been
discussing related to -- and just in the last year,
have you ever received complaints about any of
them?
A. No.
Q. So, and I realize you might not know
anything, but just tell me everything you know about
the SoFlo Ag Company.
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A. Really, I only know who their agent was
that we were dealing with, or that was seeing Sarah,
that was Rock -- I butcher his name every time.
Aboujaoude.
Q. We had trouble with it yesterday.
A. I'm trying. Rock. Everybody just calls
him Rock. That's about all I know. If I've met
anybody that was a part of their executive team, I
wouldn't have been aware of it. I couldn't pick them
out from a line up if you asked me to.
Q. And you are not familiar with the companies
they are related to, if any?
A. No, ma'am. I don't do that for any company
that comes into this County. So, it would have to be
a great exception for me to drill into that.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of the activities
that will go on at the facility?
A. Only broadly, that they are going to be
breeding these animals, and that there's some
regulations that they have to have basic medical
care. And they are going to be shipping them out to
other facilities around the Country, or maybe even
internationally. That's about it. It's a very
summary explanation.
Q. Okay. So regarding Primate Products, are
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you aware that they built or were building a new
facility or, let's call it an expansion, or a new
facility?
A. I knew they were, I think they were
expanding. Yes, ma'am.
Q. We'll call that Panther Tracts.
A. Okay.
Q. What do you know, if anything, about that
facility?
A. Very limited at this time. Again, I think
this -- it may have happened under my watch. I don't
remember seeing a file on it. Again, it was a
by-right provision, so it would not have even
elevated up to my level, it would have been handled
right there in the department. So I really don't
know much about it, to be honest with you.
Q. Have you ever heard of the company
Bioculture?
A. Only by reference in some of those news
articles we started off this conversation with. And
to be honest with you, I only skimmed a couple of
those. And unless my PIO Assistant says you need to
read this because we need to respond, I've got a lot
of stuff on my plate.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. This is 12.
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(Exhibit 12 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Well, I know it came from our e-mail, but I
need just a quick second to just kind of look through
this, if you don't mind.
Q. Sure. Yeah. Take all the time that you
need.
A. It's not something that I recognize
readily. Okay. It's coming back to me now. Yes,
ma'am, I recognize the document.
Q. And it's a true and accurate representation
of an e-mail exchange that you had with Gregg
Gillman, Commissioner Turner, that came from a
forwarded e-mail?
A. Yes, ma'am. I recognize that.
Q. Okay. So turning to the second page.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Do you know -- and this is an e-mail that
you would keep in the normal course of business,
correct?
A. Absolutely. I don't delete anything.
Q. So do you know Miss Misotti, the woman who
sent this e-mail?
A. I've met her a couple of times at community
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meetings, but to say that I know her beyond just name
and recognition that she's tied to the Talkin'
Monkeys Project, no, ma'am. I just know her by
nomenclature.
Q. How do you know her from the meetings?
A. She's one of the officers in the
Homeowner's Association in the Pioneer Community.
Q. And she's the owner of that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Do you agree with her assessment of the
situation that she expresses in this e-mail?
A. I'm not going to confirm or deny her
position statement on this. It looks like she was
very aggravated, and I mean, she's using some very
choice language in here, so, and apparently she
didn't take time to spell check or check her grammar,
so I'm not going to confirm or deny her position.
Q. I'm just asking if you agree with it, sort
of like whether you would adopt it as your own
opinion.
A. No. I don't have a habit of adopting
somebody that's writing like this and taking a very
temperamental standpoint, without doing my own
research and my own opinion. She has her right to
express what she wants to express, but I'm not going
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to adopt her position as mine.
Q. Do you know if Commissioner Turner
consulted with her about this matter related to the
e-mail?
A. I have no idea, ma'am.
Q. So turning to the front page, so just
reading the e-mail you say that you have included
some language from her e-mail to Commissioner Turner
in this draft of a press release that you were
preparing. Why did you include language from her
e-mail?
A. Well, first of all, I don't think that
Turner sent it to Gillman.
Q. Sent what?
A. I don't think Chairman Turner sent it to
Gregg Gillman.
Q. Sent what, I'm sorry?
A. Sent the language from Misotti to Gregg
Gillman for his knowledge. I don't see that in the
heading at all.
Q. I'm just asking --
A. And why I would include it is that there
may be some factual statements in here that could
have some merit, but if you notice, I ended that full
sentence and said "I have included some language from
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Dr. Misotti's e-mail to Commissioner Turner, those
facts need to be checked."
Q. Yes.
A. Because I'm not adopting them as my
statement, I want to make sure they are independently
verifiable. And then I asked Commissioner Turner to
please run this by Dr. Misotti. I never got a
follow-up from that. The reason I asked him to check
it by Dr. Misotti was because I don't typically take
people's words that they have said without their
knowledge.
MS. EBERLY: If you could just look at the
press release that you prepared in relation to
this e-mail.
(Exhibit 13 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, ma'am, I do.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. Because it came from my staff, and I had to
approve it before it was released.
Q. Is it a true and accurate representation of
a draft press release you prepared in response to
this story?
A. Yes. Let me clarify this, I do believe
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this is still a draft version that we are working off
of, because there is all caps, so this may not be
what was sent to the media.
Q. Oh, yes. I'm aware of that.
A. Okay. I just want to make sure that's
clear.
Q. Yes, that is clear. So, in this draft, you
wrote at the time, this is I believe the fourth
paragraph, "Hendry County's position is one to
communicate the limited scope by which the Board of
County Commissioners is able to engage in the
regulatory function of such primate facilities," et
cetera. What did you mean by "the limited scope"?
A. Well, I clarify that in the next sentence,
which says "This scope is only to address the proper
land use and zoning of such a facility."
Q. So let's say the County wanted to have a
public meeting about this, but it's not in the --
it's not in the Land Code, but they thought it might
be necessary. In your view, is that prohibited by
the Land Code?
A. Well, at this time we have precedent that
it's not required to go to a public meeting. So, for
it to reverse tack, for us to change course, the
Board would need to provide us that direction and
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that policy interpretation to change the current
direction.
Q. Yeah, I'm saying is the -- could the Board
have a public meeting on this if they wanted to?
A. If the Board and three of them, at least
three of them said yes, we want a public meeting,
absolutely. They have home rule.
Q. So with regard to the zoning of this
facility, essentially the County is obligated to
approve the facility if it meets all of the
requirements?
A. Based on the precedent, the interpretation,
the definition, and the direction of the Board of
County Commissioners and the proper affirmation and
confirmation by staff, yes, ma'am.
Q. So later on in the statement you wrote, on
the top of the second page, "Hendry County Government
had concerns at the time of reviewing the various
planning and permitting documents regarding the
treatment of the these animals. We were assured by
the company that they would exceed regulations."
What were those concerns?
A. I do not know, ma'am. And what you read is
a quote from the County Commissioner Chairperson
Karson Turner. I did not have independent knowledge
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of that particular statement. That came from his
mouth to our Public Information Officer's ears, Janet
Papinaw, who drafted this draft for review.
Q. So you didn't speak with him about that?
A. No. I did not.
Q. Or what assurances the company provided?
A. We have never had that conversation.
Q. So do you have any personal knowledge of
the content of this release? Did you review it
before you sent it?
A. I read it for grammar, we circulated it
amongst our internal team, which included I think at
the time, what's the date on this? Is there a date?
Q. April 20th.
A. Okay. So Catala would have been here, Lapp
was here, Papinaw was here, her direct boss Miss
Davis was here. I think we all fact checked and make
sure that we weren't saying anything that was
egregious or false. That it was all true to the best
of our knowledge and ability, and then sent it out.
Now, as far as independently me researching and
getting a data file and analytic on every little
piece of it, no, ma'am. We were trying to get this
back out to the media in a responsible fashion, but
also we knew we had the clock ticking.
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Q. And so you might not know, but the last
quote from Commissioner Turner talks about
"acknowledges real animal rights concerns exist in
this type of industry." Do you have any knowledge of
where or how he provided that quote, or what he feels
about that?
A. Well, I know he watched the CNN Headline
News episode with Miss Mitchell -- Valez-Mitchell,
and he is an avid reader, he is involved with Audubon
Society. I think he's also done some work with, I
may be reaching and getting this wrong, but he's done
work with a variety of different animal and wildlife
NGO's. So, again, the guy is zero to 150 miles an
hour. I can't tell you how he comes up with some of
this stuff.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. EBERLY: So now I'd just like to look
quickly at a revised statement and e-mail.
(Exhibit 14 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how do you recognize that?
A. Because it came to me from Gregg Gillman,
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and I forwarded it on to the Commissioners.
Q. Is this a fair and accurate representation
of an e-mail exchange you had with Gregg Gillman and
the other Commissioners on Friday, May 2nd?
A. Yes.
Q. So turning to the e-mail from Mo Khan, he
provided a statement from Primera to the County,
correct?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. Okay.
A. Well, he provided a statement to Gregg
Gillman with the EDC, who then provided the statement
to me --
Q. Okay.
A. -- as indicated by the chain of e-mails. I
know that's technical, but it is important at least
from my perspective. It did not come directly to me.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. Now looking at the
statement.
(Exhibit 15 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, ma'am I do. This is the document we
were just discussing that was sent to Mr.
Gillman that was then forwarded to me.
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Q. And is this a fair and accurate
representation of the statement from Primera to the
Hendry County Board of Commissioners and Residents
made on May 1st, 2014?
A. It is the account. Now, whether it's fair,
accurate, and reasonable, that's for somebody else to
determine, because it's not my words.
Q. And is the statement that was forwarded via
e-mail something that you would keep in the regular
course of business?
A. It's in the public records file; otherwise,
you wouldn't have got it through Discovery, so.
Q. So the statement says Primera's "focus is
aligned with the principles of the 3 R's." Are you
at all familiar with what that means?
A. Just now having read it, Replacement,
Reduction, and Refinement, with the document in front
of me. I couldn't have told you what the three
R's -- it might be reading, writing, and arithmetic.
Q. Okay. So you don't know at all what
they --
A. Couldn't tell you.
Q. It says "Primera has assembled a team of
industry experts," "who have taken into consideration
the variables (whether by acts of nature or human
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error) and consequently designed a state-of-the-art
facility," et cetera. What are they referring to by
"the variables," if you know?
A. I honestly couldn't even begin to guess
what he's talking about.
Q. What would you describe as an act of
nature?
A. Hurricane, tornado, storm, earthquakes,
locusts, plagues, rivers turning to blood, frogs.
Q. And with similarly with human error?
A. Humans are faulty creatures, so they have
tendency to make accidents.
Q. Are you familiar with the facilities plan
for preventing the kind of variables that they are
referring to?
A. I've never held it, nor read it, but I'm
sure they must have one to stay in compliance with
Federal and State Regulations with dealing with the
kind of animals that they are dealing with. And that
is an assumption by me.
Q. So you don't know whether they have any
emergency management plan?
A. I've never touched it. I can't speak to
that. I've never touched it.
Q. Do you know if that's something that the
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County requires in their permitting and zoning?
A. It's a possibility, but I'm not aware of it
at the top of my head.
Q. So the statement names several prominent
animal rights and welfare organizations on the second
page, I believe, and states "The unbalanced and shock
value-style of portrayed in the media reflects a
prejudicial and biased image of Primera." Do you
agree with that?
A. That's their opinion.
Q. Is it the County's position that anyone who
criticizes their questions about primate breeding
facilities is an animals rights extremist?
A. No. From my viewpoint, we have freedom of
speech, and if you want to talk to me about
something, by all means, let's talk.
Q. Are you aware of anyone associated with the
County referring to the plaintiff's in this case or
their lawyers as animal rights activists?
A. No. Not off the top of my head, no,
ma'am.
Q. Are you aware of anyone making derogatory
comments about anyone who opposes the primate
facilities?
A. Not that I'm aware of. We have a zero
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tolerance for anything that could be discriminatory
or derogatory.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. Thank you.
(Exhibit 16 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. It was produced from our company, and it
looks like this is a final version.
Q. Is this a true and accurate representation
of the press statement that you prepared in response
to that news article?
A. I believe so, ma'am.
Q. And is this something that you keep in the
normal course of business?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Okay. Do you know why the release changed
so dramatically from the one that was originally
developed?
A. As with everything that we do, we start
with a very large draft. And then we work through
it, and we think about what we are saying, and we are
making sure that we can back up what we know. And so
we don't want to ever misguide the public. So the
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reason it went from being two pages to a one-page
document is because this is what we were comfortable
with asserting and standing behind. What you have as
the two-page document is truly a working draft that
was subject to change.
Q. So do you know at all why the specific
quotes were removed?
A. I do believe we called the chairman and
asked him what his thoughts were and if he still
wanted it in the statement. And I think he told us
that, you know, on second thought, pull my quotes out
of it. Which is his right. I mean, I didn't want to
put words in his mouth and shouldn't have.
Q. And regarding the statement from Primera
that was originally part of the County's statement --
A. We felt like if we put it within our
statement that we would be acknowledging their
position and taking up their side. We felt that it
needed to be a separate release, so that they stood
on their own merit, not on the County's shoulders.
Q. Are you aware of any statement from Primera
being forwarded directly to any concerned party?
A. Other than the statement you just showed me
that was sent to the Commissioners by virtue of that
e-mail chain, I don't know what else they did with
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it. I'm assuming it made it to the newspaper. I
think I saw it in the newspaper, but it's so long ago
that I can't tell you for sure. And like I said,
my -- I have a staff person that was helping me
throughout that process. At this time, it was Janet
Papinaw.
MS. EBERLY: Okay. Can we take a five or
ten-minute break, just to see.
THE WITNESS: Sure. Sure.
MS. EBERLY: Thanks.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. As long as can I still
reserve the right that if we are going to go
past three that I can take five minutes and just
make a couple phone calls.
MS. EBERLY: Yeah, of course.
(Brief recess was taken.)
MS. EBERLY: Okay. So we are going to pull
one more exhibit.
(Exhibit 17 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Vaguely, but yes.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. Came from our e-mail system, has my e-mail
account.
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Q. Is this a fair and accurate representation
of an e-mail you received on July 22, 2013 from Sarah
Catala?
A. I don't have a direct my memory of it, but
it looks like it's okay. Yes.
Q. And this e-mail is something you would keep
in the normal course of business?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So Miss Catala's e-mail says "I have
all the e-mails that were sent to the Board last
August regarding this same facility. This is not the
first time these e-mails have been sent." Do you
know which e-mails she's talking about?
A. I can't recall, to be honest with you.
Q. And do you know about the first time they
were sent, do you know what she's referring to?
A. I have no knowledge of the first time,
second time. I'm lost here. And I don't remember.
Q. Okay. So skipping down, she says in the
third paragraph, or sorry on the second paragraph she
says she doesn't know if it was discussed with the
Commissioners on an individual basis, but it
certainly was not discussed in the Board of County
Commissioners meeting. What's your understanding of
that statement?
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A. It is that she didn't have firsthand
reference of whether or not there was individual
briefings with the Commissioners on the project. And
it looks like she is putting that onto Gregg Gillman
the EDC president, but she knew that it wasn't on an
agenda at a BOCC meeting, because she would have had
to do that, or she would have definitely been
knowledgeable about that.
Q. She said it was not discussed, yet you
understand that as it wasn't on the agenda?
A. It wasn't on the agenda, and she knew it
didn't come up at a meeting, because she basically
attended every meeting in her tenure here.
Q. So we are talking about the policy that
animal husbandry is an allowable use in agriculture,
as it pertains to the primate issue?
A. Right.
Q. So, is your understanding that this issue
has not come before or been discussed in a Board
meeting?
A. Not since I've been here, as far as any
will to change it, uphold it, or anything of that
nature. At least not to my memory, sitting here.
Q. Okay.
A. I know she makes the statement that if the
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BOCC wants to consider specifying animal husbandry or
changing uses within the zoning district, they need
to direct staff to do so. I know there was never a
staff report written to be put on an agenda, and I
don't recall any Commissioners ever bringing it up
under business by district.
Q. So then she says "This was something that
came up at the first primate breeding facility years
ago. It was very controversial." Do you know what
she means by that?
A. No, but I could go read the minutes and
find out, but I don't have any knowledge of that.
Q. She says it's her understanding that the
contract County Attorney, Kate English, at that time
gave an opinion that the breeding facility is animal
husbandry. Who is Kate English?
A. She currently is an attorney employed by
the Pavese Law Firm in Naples.
Q. How do you know her?
A. She's been the attorney on record for the
recent landfill project we have been dealing with,
and I think a couple of others, but the landfill one
sticks in my brain, because we had a meeting with her
recently, in the last three or four months.
Q. Can you think of any others in
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particular?
A. No, ma'am. I can't.
Q. How long have you known her?
A. By name and facial recognition together,
maybe three or four months since the last meeting we
had on the landfill. I mean, I've heard her name.
It's kind of a fairly common name around here on some
issues, but to say that I know her beyond that one
meeting, that would be extremely liberal of me. We
would have no common ground to even begin
discussions.
Q. So do you know whether she represents the
SoFlo Ag facility?
A. She might. It sounds familiar, but I don't
know that. I couldn't testify to it.
Q. And do you know whether she represents the
Mannheimer Primate Breeding Facility?
A. I have no clue on that one. No clue.
Q. Do you know whether she represents any of
the other primate breeding facilities?
A. No. I mean, it sounds familiar with SoFlo
Ag, like I stated, and it could be correct, but as
far as with Primate Products, Panther Tracts, being a
part of Primate Products or Mannheimer, I have no
idea what Kate English has, if anything, to do with
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them. I'm just not familiar with it.
Q. What's your understanding of her role in
developing the Primate Zoning Policy?
MR. LAPP: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if she had a
role with developing the policy at all. I think
she provided an opinion as to what was written.
At least that's what I'm going off of, of what I
know.
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. I think you stated earlier that she
provided an opinion, and the Board ratified it?
A. They accepted it and made it a policy and
definition, but I think they took her opinion and
they said that's what we want to do under the plan,
and gave the direction to staff. So, but I don't
know if it was intended to be a policy analysis for
the Board to consider, or if it was a legal memo
advising the Board of her interpretation. I know
that sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but I just
don't know what that formal -- I've never seen that
opinion.
Q. Do you know if she participated in the
adoption of the Zoning Laws in any way?
A. I can't speak to that. I don't know.
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These were done early 2000, so there's a good chance
she was, but I don't know that.
Q. As the County Attorney, would she have had
the authority to interpret the Zoning Code?
A. I would think so. To give an opinion on
it, certainly.
Q. Is it fair to say that that interpretation
that we have been speaking about that the Board
ratified, that that has been adopted by the County
Commissioners as formal policy?
A. It certainly looks like it.
Q. Are you aware of any documents confirming
that policy?
A. Not that I'm aware of. No, ma'am. Other
than the referred to meeting minutes, and the
opinion.
Q. And I know that you might not know, but I
just have to ask these questions.
A. Understood.
Q. Are you aware whether County Staff were
asked whether primate breeding was allowed in 2000?
A. No. I have no idea. I was still in college
at the time that that was going on.
Q. Do you know whether there was conversations
between the Board members before that 2000 meeting in
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which it came up?
A. No, ma'am. No, ma'am.
Q. Do you know whether there were
conversations with the Board members and the staff
members either prior to or after that 2000 meeting?
A. I don't know, but it is pretty common for
Board to, a Board member to address a staff person
and ask them questions. It's a common practice on a
wide variety of things. So it probably did happen.
I can make a good guess at that, but that's all it
would be is a guess. I have no knowledge of it.
Q. Do you know if there was any discussions in
that meeting that did not appear in the minutes of
the meeting?
A. Not that I'm aware of, but of course I
wasn't there when it happened, so I wouldn't be able
to testify to the accuracy of the document.
Q. Are you aware there was a meeting on July
10th, 2001 in which the Agriculture Land Use was
discussed in relation to the primate issue?
A. I have no knowledge of that specific date.
I know in 2001 there was discussions about a project,
but I don't know what happened on that date.
Q. Regarding the 2001 discussions on the
project, what do you know about those?
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A. Just that there was a meeting, and there
was an affirmation of confirmation about the use, I
guess. Very roughshod. I don't have a lot of
details. I just know there was a meeting, and they
were talking about this issue.
Q. Do you know which primate facility it was
in regard to?
A. Maybe Mannheimer. I may be getting them
backwards. It had to be either Panther -- Primate
Products or Mannheimer, one of the two. I just don't
know which order.
Q. Are you aware that there was a meeting on
September 10th, 2002, in which the same issue was
discussed?
A. Again, I knew something happened in '02,
but I didn't know the date, and I don't know what
happened at the meeting, other than this was a topic
that they were talking about.
Q. Are you aware of whether it was on the
agenda?
A. No, ma'am. I don't know.
Q. Are you aware of any conversations between
the County Commissioners either before or after the
meeting concerning that issue?
A. I couldn't speak to that. I don't know. I
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wasn't here.
Q. So just turning back to something that you
said just a few minutes ago. We were talking about
Kate English, and you had mentioned that it sounds
familiar that she represented SoFlo Ag, but not that
she represented Primate Products. Why does that
sound familiar, do you have any recollection of
that?
A. It may have been -- we'll go back to who we
refer to as Rock. I don't want to butcher his last
name. I make personal apology to the man for that,
is I think he may have said Kate was on their team.
Maybe my attorney mentioned her name as being a part
of the team. Maybe both. I just -- it just sounds
like she was a part of the SoFlo Ag project. I just
think I remember that being a key part. It just
didn't stand out in my mind.
I just, I honestly don't really care who
their attorney is. No offense to attorneys, but I
just want to know who the engineer is, because that's
usually who I'm having a gripe with because they are
either too slow or trying to push too fast to get
their projects through the door, so.
Q. Are you aware whether Kate English
represented any primate facilities in 2001?
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A. No, ma'am. I have no knowledge of that. I
don't know who her clients are.
Q. Are you aware whether she worked for the
Pavese Law firm in 2001?
A. I know she worked for the County as a
Contract Attorney. I don't know which firm she was a
part of at the time. I've never dug back into those
procurement records to see who that professional
contract was with and through to get Kate English as
our attorney. I don't know.
MS. EBERLY: Okay.
(Exhibit 18 marked for identification.)
BY MS. EBERLY:
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes. This is the memo we talked about
earlier. It was an earlier exhibit, this was the
draft memorandum we were discussing.
Q. Oh, this is actually a new exhibit. You'll
notice the date on it is Friday, July 10th.
A. Okay. I thought for certain we talked
about there earlier.
Q. No. We talked about one -- maybe there's
some confusion. We talked about one that was sent on
March 23rd, 2015?
A. I was talking before our break. This was
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my draft to Margaret Emblidge and Mark Lapp, and then
I went to the Red Sox game.
Q. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
A. Okay. I was just making sure I understood
that we had addressed this earlier.
Q. Yeah, so it looks like the same memo, and I
believe it is, it just has the date is July 10th,
2015, and I'm just wondering --
A. It's an automatic update-type think. So,
if they opened up this document to print it out for
you, it would have updated automatically as a part of
that macro. As you notice, memorandum is still
misspelled.
Q. So this wasn't something that you re-sent
on July 10th?
A. No, ma'am. This thing died in the water
the day that -- march 23rd. It's never been
produced, it's never been sent. It actually was
probably opened up to provide this to you in
Discovery.
Q. That's what I wanted to check.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So we have been discussing and, you know,
using all of these documents. I just want to be
clear that those documents are ones that you would
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keep in your normal course of business as part of
your job responsibilities?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. EBERLY: I think we are done.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
MS. EBERLY: Thanks very much.
THE WITNESS: Thank you so much. I
appreciate it.
MS. EBERLY: Of course, yeah, I know. We
are meeting the deadline.
THE WITNESS: I really do appreciate you
working with me on that. Thank you.
MS. EBERLY: Yeah, thanks very much.
MR. LAPP: I don't have any questions, and
he'll read.
(Whereupon, the above-matter concluded at
2:37 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE OF OATH
STATE OF FLORIDA )COUNTY OF HENDRY )
I, Renee R. Miller, Certified Court
Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida at
Large, certify that on the 18th day of August,
2015, CHARLES CHAPMAN personally appeared before
me and took an oath or affirmation for the
purpose of giving testimony in the foregoing
matter.
Said witness produced the following
identification:
Driver's License C155-158-80-202-0
Identification Card _____________________
Witness my hand and official seal this ______
day of ______________________, ___________.
____________________________________ Renee R. Miller, Court Reporter
and Notary Public, State of Florida.
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C E R T I F I C A T E
STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF HENDRY )
I, Renee Miller, Certified Reporter and Notary
Public in and for the aforesaid county and state, do
hereby certify that the testimony of said witness was
taken by me in machine shorthand and was thereafter
reduced to typewritten form by me or under my
direction and supervision, and that the foregoing
transcript is a true and accurate record of the
testimony given, to the best of my understanding and
ability.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for,
related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the
action in which this proceeding was taken; and,
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto,
nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the
outcome of this action.
Dated this ______ day of _____________________,
____________.
_____________________________________Renee Miller
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READER SHEET
I, the undersigned, CHARLES CHAPMAN, do hereby
certify that I have read the foregoing deposition and
that, to the best of my knowledge, said deposition is
true and accurate (with the exception of the
following corrections listed below):
PAGE/LINE CORRECTION AND REASON FOR CORRECTION
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
________________________________________________See attached sheet(s) for additional information:
___YES___NO
_______________________________CHARLES CHAPMAN
STATE OF FLORIDA)COUNTY OF HENDRY)
Subscribed and sworn to before me this
______ day of ___________________, ___________.
_______________________________Notary Public
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