Broussard Depo
Transcript of Broussard Depo
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1 24TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT
2 FOR THE PARISH OF JEFFERSON
3 STATE OF LOUISIANA
4
5 NO. 624-459 DIVISION "I"
6
7 CHICAGO PROPERTY INTERESTS, L.L.C.AND ZOE ALDIGE, INDIVIDUALLY AND ON BEHALF OF
8 THOSE SIMILARLY SITUATED
9 VERSUS
10 AARON BROUSSARD PERSONALLY AND IN HIS CAPACITYAS PRESIDENT OF JEFFERSON PARISH AND JEFFERSON
11 PARISH
12 CONSOLIDATED WITH
13 CASE NO. 624-778(LEVY), 625-145(LOGA),
14 626-415(KACZMAREK), 625-988(SCHMIDT),
15 635-539(BROWN), AND 635-883(MENARD)
16
17
18 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF AARON BROUSSARD,
19 given in the above-entitled cause, pursuant to
20 the following stipulation, before Sandra P.
21 DiFebbo, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and
22 for the State of Louisiana, at the Law Offices
23 of Burglass & Tankersley, 5213 Airline Drive,
24 Metairie, Louisiana, on the 28th of November,
25 2007, at 9:11 am.
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 PLAINTIFFS' MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE:
3 JACOBS & SARRATBY: DARLEEN M. JACOBS,
4 ATTORNEY AT LAW823 St. Louis Street
5 New Orleans, Louisiana 70112
6
RICHARD MARTIN,7 ATTORNEY AT LAW
20 Versailles Boulevard
8 New Orleans, Louisiana 70125
9
LAW OFFICE OF ROBERT J. CALUDA10 BY: THOMAS G. ROBBINS,
ATTORNEY AT LAW
11 310 Rue St. AnnMetairie, Louisiana 70005
12
13 PLAINTIFFS' LIASON COUNSEL and COUNSEL FORCHICAGO PROPERTY INTERESTS and ZOE ALDIGE:
14
15 MURPHY, ROGERS, SLOSS & GAMBEL
BY: E. CARROLL ROGERS,16 ATTORNEY AT LAW
701 Poydras Street
17 400 One Shell SquareNew Orleans, Louisiana 70139
18
19 DEFENDANTS, AARON BROUSSARD AND THE PARISH OF
JEFFERSON:20
21 BURGLASS & TANKERSLEYBY: DENNIS PHAYER,
22 ATTORNEY AT LAW -and-
BRUCE BURGLASS,23 ATTORNEY AT LAW5213 Airline Drive
24 Metairie, Louisiana 70001-5602
25
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1 APPEARANCES CONT'D:
2
DEFENDANT, NATIONAL UNION FIRE INSURANCE3 COMPANY, PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA:
4 LEAKE & ANDERSSONBY: KAREN DICKE,
5 ATTORNEY AT LAW
1100 Poydras Street6 1700 Energy Centre
New Orleans, Louisiana 70163-17017
8 DEFENDANT, AMERICAN ALTERNATIVE INSURANCECORPORATION:
9
SIMON, PERAGINE, SMITH & REDFEARN10 BY: DAVID F. BIENVENU,
ATTORNEY AT LAW -and-
11 JOSH HUDSON, ATTORNEY AT LAW1100 Poydras Street
12 30th Floor, Energy CentreNew Orleans, Louisiana 70163-3000
13
14
15 Videograppher: Greg Cassen, Depo-Vue
16
17
18 Reported By:
19
20 Sandra P. DiFebboCertified Shorthand Reporter
21 State of Louisiana
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1 And, of course, you know that everything that
2 you are answering right now is being taken down
3 by the court reporter and also by the
4 videographer?
5 A. Yes, ma'am.
6 Q. Do you have any questions before we
7 begin the deposition?
8 A. No, ma'am.
9 Q. Also, if you need to take a break at any
10 time, just stop the deposition, and we'll try
11 to accommodate you, either to answer your phone
12 in connection with parish business or personal
13 matters.
14 A. I've taken my phone off my person, so I
15 won't get interrupted that way. If I have to
16 go to the bathroom or take a break to nibble on
17 a snack or something, I'll ask for a break.
18 Q. Would you please state your full name
19 and address for the record?
20 A. Aaron F. Broussard, 100 West Esplanade,
21 Kenner, Louisiana.
22 Q. What is your date of birth?
23 A. January 6, 1949.
24 Q. How old does that make you currently?
25 A. 58.
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1 Q. Are you taking any medications today
2 which might impair your ability to give answers
3 in this deposition?
4 A. No, ma'am.
5 Q. Are you on any medications for anything
6 today?
7 A. I take an Allopurinol for gout, as a
8 gout prevention, and I take a Vytorin as a
9 cholesterol reducer.
10 Q. Do either of those medications impair
11 your ability to think?
12 A. No, ma'am.
13 Q. Were you on any medications two days
14 before or within five days after and during
15 Hurricane Katrina?
16 A. Same medications.
17 Q. Are you in any way impaired so you
18 cannot give this deposition today, whether it
19 be medically or for any other reason?
20 A. No, ma'am.
21 Q. Is there anything that might have
22 impaired your memory or your ability to give
23 testimony?
24 A. No, ma'am.
25 Q. Have you had any psychological or
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1 psychiatric breakdowns since Hurricane Katrina?
2 A. No, ma'am.
3 Q. Is your recollection of the Katrina
4 events impaired in any way?
5 A. No, ma'am. Just the time that has
6 passed.
7 Q. But you have a pretty good recollection
8 of the events of Hurricane Katrina; is that
9 fair to state?
10 A. I will give you my best recollection.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you married?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is the name of your spouse?
14 A. Karen Broussard.
15 Q. Where does she work? Is she employed?
16 A. Yes. She is employed by the parish.
17 Q. What particular area does she work in?
18 A. She works in the parish attorney's
19 office.
20 Q. Is she an attorney?
21 A. No. Paralegal.
22 Q. Is this your second marriage?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many times have you been married,
25 twice?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What is the name of your first wife?
3 A. Patricia Barrilleaux.
4 Q. Do you have any children?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what are their names and ages?
7 A. Troy Broussard, approximately 36 years
8 old now, and Amy Broussard. Well, Amy
9 Broussard Corale. She is married. She is 30
10 years old.
11 Q. Does your first wife work, or is she
12 unemployed at this time?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Do you know if she is in the
15 Metropolitan Jefferson Parish Area?
16 A. Yes. She lives in Jefferson Parish.
17 Q. Where are you currently domiciled in
18 Jefferson Parish?
19 A. 100 West Esplanade, Kenner, Louisiana.
20 Q. Now, the next question that I have to
21 ask you, as you know as an attorney, is pretty
22 perfunctory, but we have to ask you the
23 question. Have you ever been arrested?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would you please tell us about your
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1 educational background.
2 A. I am a product of public education in
3 Jefferson Parish. I attended Deckbar
4 Elementary, Kenner Junior High. I'm a graduate
5 of East Jefferson High School, 1966. I
6 attended several universities. LSU in Baton
7 Rouge, USL, at the time it was named, in
8 Lafayette, and got my bachelor degree in
9 history, minor in sociology from then LSUNO in
10 New Orleans. Then went on to Loyola Law School
11 and got my juris doctorate degree in law from
12 Loyola Law School, graduated in 1973.
13 Q. Do you hold any advanced degree in the
14 practice of law?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you hold any other degrees?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Tell us about your employment history
19 since high school.
20 A. I was a self-employed -- oh, since high
21 school?
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. In high school, I worked in a number of
24 different capacities. Since high school.
25 Q. Uh-huh.
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1 A. Well, I was the lead singer in a rock
2 and roll band during my college years.
3 Q. What was the name of that band?
4 A. That was The Other Guys, was the name of
5 that band, and that was the most productive way
6 that I was able to earn money to go through
7 college, but I also worked in the cabinet
8 manufacturer in the summertime. I did forklift
9 work, air freight transport work with the
10 forklift operation involved. Mostly those were
11 the summer jobs.
12 Q. When you went to law school, did you
13 work through law school?
14 A. Continued as an air freight forwarder.
15 Worked for an air freight forwarder company,
16 again, mainly forklift operating and sorting
17 and transferring packages for an air freight
18 forwarder.
19 Q. Did you go to night law school or day
20 law school?
21 A. I went to day law school. Also, during
22 the summer, I worked in a printing company as
23 well during the summer.
24 Q. When you graduated from law school, I
25 take it that you went into the immediate
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1 practice of law; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. I was a self-employed attorney,
3 sole practitioner.
4 Q. For how long?
5 A. I guess until about 1977, '78.
6 Q. Then did you join a firm?
7 A. Actually created a partnership.
8 Q. Who was that with?
9 A. Glenn Ansardi.
10 Q. How long did you and Mr. Ansardi
11 practice?
12 A. Until about 1982, when I was elected
13 mayor. At that point, I left that partnership
14 and became mayor and did really a very minimal
15 practice of law during the early years of my
16 mayorship.
17 Q. Were you associated with any law firm
18 after you and Mr. Ansardi broke up the
19 partnership?
20 A. I worked with Golden & Fonte for a
21 while, of counsel, and then became of counsel
22 with Martini, LeBlanc Law Firm. Now it's
23 called -- the name has changed, D'Aquila, Volk,
24 et cetera, law firm.
25 Q. Are you currently associated with any
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1 law firms?
2 A. That's the one I'm presently associated
3 with.
4 Q. What is the correct?
5 A. D'Aquila, Volk, Mullins & Contreras.
6 Q. It's four lawyers, and then you make the
7 fifth lawyer?
8 A. I'm of counsel. I'm not a partner of
9 the firm.
10 Q. Of counsel, what are your duties with
11 that firm?
12 A. Basically, I don't have specific duties
13 with that firm. I'm allowed space in that
14 building, and I refer cases to that firm and am
15 allowed access to the receptionist and office
16 equipment. It's an of counsel relationship.
17 Q. Do you have a fee sharing arrangement
18 with them?
19 A. No, I don't. There is a retainer that I
20 have from them that I get each month that,
21 again, allows me the opportunity to be in that
22 place and also to refer work to them.
23 Q. When you refer them a case, do you get a
24 percentage of the proceeds from that case?
25 A. It can vary. I don't have a fixed
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1 contractual relationship with them in that way,
2 so there could easily be cases that I refer
3 which I get no referral fee. It just depends
4 on the case and the outcome of the case, but
5 nothing is written in the contractual form.
6 Q. So it's correct that you don't have any
7 type of written contract with them regarding
8 fee arrangements?
9 A. No. That's correct.
10 Q. Have you ever been associated with
11 Wendell Gauthier?
12 A. In my early practice, there was a
13 building that was built on Florida Avenue and
14 which was shared by Wendell Gauthier, myself,
15 my dad, some other independent attorneys as
16 well, in which we had a co-op arrangement of
17 sharing our receptionist, sharing resources of
18 the same office space. That was in Kenner.
19 Then, for about six months, I had
20 an affiliation with that firm in which I worked
21 with the firm for about six months to test out
22 that format for my style of practice of law.
23 After about six months is when I met Glenn
24 Ansardi, and we formed a partnership after
25 that. So that affiliation, that formal
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1 affiliation with the firm, lasted approximately
2 six months to less than a year.
3 Q. Have you ever been affiliated in any way
4 with Chehardy law firm?
5 A. Not of counsel, no.
6 Q. In any other capacity have you been
7 affiliated with them?
8 A. Other than a possible referral or two
9 over the years of my practice, that's possible.
10 None that I recall at the moment.
11 Q. Now, you said that you currently receive
12 a monthly retainer from the current law firm
13 that you are with; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How much is that retainer, and what is
16 it based on?
17 A. It's $1,500 a month. It's been the same
18 retainer amount since I began there, and it
19 basically just anchors me at that site. And I
20 believe the law firm sees benefit in me being
21 affiliated with the firm. And, as I said
22 earlier, there is referrals that are generated
23 as a result of my presence there.
24 Q. Do you have to pay any of the lights or
25 overhead in connection with that?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. So, in other words, the $1,500 is net to
3 you?
4 A. Net to me.
5 Q. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Have you ever served in the military
8 service?
9 A. No, ma'am.
10 Q. I know that you are currently parish
11 president, and you're in your second term; is
12 that correct?
13 A. I'm in my first term as we speak. My
14 second term will begin in January of next year.
15 Q. What other political offices have you
16 held in the Parish of Jefferson?
17 A. I've been a member of the Jefferson
18 Parish School Board.
19 Q. Tell us what year that was.
20 A. That would have begun in 1974, re-
21 elected, I believe, in 1976. I was elected to
22 the district seat on the Jefferson Parish
23 Council, which at that time had four district
24 positions, elected to that to fill the
25 unexpired term of George Ackel in 1977. I was
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1 reelected to that position, on the Jefferson
2 Parish Council, in 1979. I was elected mayor
3 in 1982. I was re-elected as mayor three
4 additional times subsequent to that, and then
5 was elected as chairman of the Jefferson Parish
6 Council in 1995 and then re-elected to that
7 position and then elected in 2003 but
8 inaugurated in 2004 to the term of Jefferson
9 Parish president, which I'm serving now.
10 Q. Is it correct that that term expires at
11 the end of the year?
12 A. It will expire inauguration, which is
13 preliminarily set for the second week in
14 January.
15 Q. What are your parishwide responsi-
16 bilities in connection with the presidency?
17 A. Well, they are spelled out in the
18 charter. They're basically managerial. The
19 legislative body, the council, makes the laws,
20 creates the laws, and the parish president and
21 his employees and directors basically manage
22 the parish on a day-to-day basis.
23 Q. Is there a document or a statute or an
24 ordinance which sets forth or describes the
25 office's parishwide authority?
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1 A. Yes. That would be in the charter.
2 Q. Where is it located in the charter?
3 A. It would be located under the title of
4 parish president and its duties.
5 Q. Are you empowered to act on a parishwide
6 basis in the face of impending natural
7 disasters, such as a hurricane?
8 A. Yes, and that's spelled out in two
9 different set of laws. That would be the
10 parish laws and the state laws of Louisiana
11 regarding emergency situations.
12 Q. If I were a lay person looking to find
13 out exactly how you could act in the face of an
14 impending natural disaster, such as a
15 hurricane, where would I find the documents
16 which set forth your ability to act and your
17 responsibilities to act? In other words, is
18 there a particular statute, document,
19 ordinance, charter, et cetera, which I would
20 refer myself to?
21 A. Generically, I would say the charter. I
22 would say any specific ordinances that were
23 passed regarding these emergency situations and
24 the state law as it applies to emergency
25 situations. Those would be the three generic
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1 sources that I would guide you to. And
2 specifically, in the office of emergency
3 management, they would have policies and plans
4 in effect that would be a part of their
5 department records.
6 Q. Can you give us a title of the statute
7 or the number of the ordinance that gives you
8 your authority?
9 A. I do not recall that at the present
10 time.
11 Q. If I would need to get that information,
12 whom would I be referred to?
13 A. Why don't you simply refer that possibly
14 to my attorney, and then certainly my office
15 will provide any information you need in
16 regards to that. Everything we have at our
17 disposal will be available to you.
18 Q. You say your attorney. That would be
19 Mr. Phayer?
20 A. Yes. For the purpose of that request.
21 MS. JACOBS:
22 I would like to make a request for
23 that right now, Dennis.
24 MR. PHAYER:
25 What is it specifically you are
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1 looking for?
2 MS. JACOBS:
3 We want to know what documents,
4 statutes, ordinances, or charters, and the
5 specific instances that give him the right to
6 act on a parishwide basis in the face of
7 impending natural disasters.
8 THE WITNESS:
9 I would include state laws in that
10 as well.
11 MS. JACOBS:
12 Right, exactly.
13 MR. PHAYER:
14 Sure. We can do that.
15 BY MS. JACOBS:
16 Q. As parish president, are you vested with
17 parishwide emergency powers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What documents, statute, or ordinance
20 gives you those powers?
21 A. All of the above that we've just
22 mentioned.
23 Q. As parish president, are you empowered
24 to order parishwide hurricane evacuations for
25 civilians and parish employees?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What particular statute, ordinance, or
3 charter would give you that particular power?
4 A. All of the above that we mentioned
5 earlier.
6 MS. JACOBS:
7 Dennis, once again, I'm going to
8 make the request for specifics.
9 MR. PHAYER:
10 Certainly.
11 BY MS. JACOBS:
12 Q. In the case of Hurricane Katrina, were
13 you solely responsible for the decisions for
14 the evacuation of the pump operators?
15 A. No, ma'am.
16 Q. Did anyone else aid you in that
17 decision?
18 A. I made no decision in that regard.
19 There was a plan in effect. The plan is based
20 on benchmarks and guidelines of the emergency
21 at hand. That plan was implemented as
22 designed.
23 Q. So are you telling us today that it was
24 not you who made the decision to evacuate the
25 pump operators following Hurricane Katrina?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. Was it any particular person, or did you
3 just follow a plan?
4 A. The plan was implemented as designed.
5 Q. What plan are you referring to?
6 A. It's named the Doomsday Plan.
7 Q. Do you have a copy of the Doomsday Plan
8 with you at this time?
9 A. No, ma'am, I don't.
10 Q. Where is that located in the Jefferson
11 Parish records or ordinances or minutes of
12 meetings?
13 A. It would be located in the Department of
14 Emergency Management.
15 MS. JACOBS:
16 Dennis, I'd like to call for
17 production of that document.
18 MR. PHAYER:
19 I believe we've already produced a
20 copy of that.
21 MS. ROGERS:
22 Yes.
23 BY MS. JACOBS:
24 Q. Knowing that Hurricane Katrina was
25 approaching, did you all have a meeting of the
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1 city council to discuss what you would do in
2 case of an emergency?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No one had a meeting?
5 A. Oh, you said a meeting of the council.
6 There was no meeting of the council.
7 Typically, what would happen in the face of an
8 upcoming hurricane would be a meeting at the
9 emergency management office to discuss the
10 status of a storm that's approaching.
11 Q. Who was present at the emergency
12 management meeting when the evacuation of the
13 pump operators was discussed?
14 A. I don't know that there was such a
15 meeting to discuss that. I'm not aware of a
16 meeting to discuss that. I was not present at
17 any meeting to discuss that, if in fact it
18 occurred.
19 Q. When the pump operators were evacuated,
20 did anyone have to sign an order?
21 A. No, ma'am, not to my knowledge.
22 Q. Who told them that they could evacuate?
23 A. When a plan is implemented through the
24 emergency management department, the department
25 issues to the parish directors and
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1 administrators what phase of the plan is now in
2 effect, and they give those instructions based
3 on the timing of an approaching storm, how far
4 out, what's the anticipated wind speeds that
5 will be coming into our area. They give
6 direction to the relevant departments of what
7 to do next.
8 Q. Who was in charge of emergency
9 management at the time of Hurricane Katrina?
10 A. Walter Maestri.
11 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Maestri -- his
12 training is in economics; is that correct?
13 A. I don't remember exactly what his
14 degrees are in. He was the department head
15 when I took office, so I'm not as familiar of
16 his personal background.
17 Q. It is correct that Mr. Maestri has no
18 formal training in engineering?
19 A. I don't know the answer to that
20 question.
21 Q. Or in predicting the weather?
22 A. I don't know the answer to that
23 question.
24 Q. Would he be the only one that would know
25 the answer to that question?
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1 A. I don't know the answer to that
2 question.
3 Q. How was he selected to head emergency
4 management?
5 A. He was chosen by a previous
6 administration. I'm not familiar with the
7 process, the advertisement or the selection of
8 Mr. Maestri.
9 Q. Do you know how long he's had that post?
10 A. No, ma'am. I can tell you that he had
11 it from the time that I became parish president
12 until the time that he resigned from the post.
13 Q. When was that?
14 A. I don't remember the exact date. It was
15 after Katrina, but I don't remember the exact
16 date.
17 Q. Is it correct --
18 A. Personnel records could reflect. If you
19 request that through my attorney, we can
20 certainly provide it.
21 Q. It was shortly after Hurricane Katrina
22 that he resigned; isn't that correct?
23 A. I don't recall the word "shortly" being
24 appropriate. I think some time had passed
25 before that. It might have been as much as a
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1 year. Again, I don't remember the exact date
2 or month.
3 Q. Is it correct as you sit here today that
4 you're telling us that it was Walter Maestri
5 who told the pump operators that they could
6 leave their posts?
7 A. I don't know if it was Walter Maestri
8 personally that told them. Again, as I said
9 earlier, the emergency management department
10 gives directions to various department heads
11 and other administrators about what phase of
12 the plan is now in effect, so exactly the chain
13 of dialogue, I am not familiar with. I was not
14 there when that chain of dialogue occurred.
15 Q. Knowing that there was an impending
16 hurricane coming, you did not make any attempts
17 to find out what Mr. Maestri would tell pump
18 operators with regard to their evacuation?
19 A. No, ma'am.
20 Q. Is there any particular reason why you
21 did not?
22 A. No, ma'am.
23 Q. Did anyone else in your administration
24 contact Walter Maestri to find out what the
25 evacuation plans would be, if any, for the pump
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1 operators and inform you of what those plans
2 were?
3 A. What point of time are you talking about
4 now?
5 Q. At any time before the arrival of
6 Hurricane Katrina, which would be probably
7 eminently within four days before the striking
8 of the hurricane.
9 A. Why don't you repeat that question so I
10 have a thorough understanding of it?
11 Q. Did anyone in your administration, or
12 anyone working for you or under your direction,
13 make any attempts to contact Mr. Maestri and
14 find out if he had any plans to evacuate the
15 pump operators and then inform you of what
16 those plans would be?
17 A. Prior to the time that these men were
18 evacuated from the position?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No, ma'am, no, ma'am.
21 Q. Did you make any attempts or inquiries
22 to determine what the plans would be?
23 A. No, ma'am.
24 Q. Are you telling us today that you had no
25 knowledge that the pump operators were going to
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1 be evacuated until after the fact?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Before the arrival of Hurricane Katrina,
4 and knowing that there was a dangerous
5 situation in the Gulf with regard to that
6 hurricane, did you bother to find out what
7 qualifications Walter Maestri had for making
8 those decisions, about whether or not pump
9 operators could be evacuated?
10 A. No, ma'am.
11 Q. Did anyone else under your control or
12 under your direction or in your administration
13 make any attempts to find out?
14 A. Not to my knowledge; however, again, Mr.
15 Maestri was in that position when I took
16 office, therefore, I am not aware of any
17 conversations that anyone had with Mr. Maestri
18 since I became parish president.
19 Q. Going back to the news media
20 teleprompts, et cetera, there was a command
21 post that was set up somewhere in Jefferson
22 Parish prior to the arrival of Hurricane
23 Katrina; is that correct?
24 A. There is an emergency management
25 facility located on Ames Boulevard.
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1 Q. Ames Boulevard is located on the west
2 bank?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. Were you part of that -- were you in
5 that facility?
6 A. I was in and out of that facility,
7 depending on the timing of your question.
8 Certainly, I was in and out of that facility at
9 various times.
10 Q. Who else would have been at that
11 facility, at the command post facility?
12 A. It would be best probably to provide you
13 an actual list rather than me making a guess at
14 exactly who was in that facility. There were
15 many different agencies represented in that
16 facility, a number of different jurisdictions
17 represented from state police to National Guard
18 to local law enforcement. They had a number of
19 different presences in it, and I'd prefer, so I
20 could be exact, as to forward you a list at
21 your request of what we can recall or my
22 administration can recall of who might have
23 been in that building.
24 Q. Was there a sign-in sheet for people as
25 they came and went into that facility?
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1 A. Not that I recall, no, ma'am.
2 Q. I'd probably ask --
3 A. There was a -- well, I'll tell you.
4 There was a guard at the base. It is a --
5 there is a check-in point. I don't recall if
6 there was a sign-in sheet, but there certainly
7 was a point of entry in which the credentials
8 of a person being in that building would have
9 been asked for.
10 MS. JACOBS:
11 Mr. Phayer, I ask for production of
12 the list of people who were at the command
13 post.
14 MR. PHAYER:
15 This is parish personnel you're
16 interested in?
17 MS. JACOBS:
18 Anybody that was at the command post
19 on Ames Boulevard.
20 MR. PHAYER:
21 At what point?
22 MS. JACOBS:
23 At any time prior to or during,
24 following Hurricane Katrina.
25 MR. PHAYER:
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1 I'll be happy to search for what you
2 are looking for. That's a very broad time
3 period you are talking about.
4 MR. BIENVENU:
5 Thursday to Tuesday?
6 MS. JACOBS:
7 That's fine.
8 MR. PHAYER:
9 36 hours before the storm?
10 MR. BIENVENU:
11 From Thursday.
12 MS. JACOBS:
13 And after the storm.
14 MS. ROGERS:
15 Through Tuesday.
16 MR. PHAYER:
17 Sure.
18 BY MS. JACOBS:
19 Q. When did the command post actually set
20 up on Ames Boulevard? When did it become
21 operative?
22 A. It houses the Office of Emergency
23 Management, so it is continually operating as a
24 department office for emergency preparedness.
25 So, in that regard, it's always staffed. So
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1 maybe rephrase the question, and knowing that,
2 what I've just said, is there another level of
3 --
4 Q. As parish president, when did you first
5 go to the command post?
6 A. In regards to?
7 Q. Hurricane Katrina.
8 A. I recall that it was Friday afternoon,
9 the Friday before Katrina hit, that I got a
10 call from Tim Whitmer telling me that the
11 direction of the storm was taking a more
12 westerly direction and that we needed to meet
13 that Friday afternoon to hear from state
14 officials and hear from -- I think it was the
15 weather service. I'm pretty sure it was one of
16 -- it was either one of the regular calls that
17 began to happen when you're tracking a
18 hurricane in which the state agencies get on
19 the line with the weather service and get on
20 the line with the officials from the other
21 parishes. It was either one of those, or it
22 was a meeting that we held in preparation for
23 one of those calls that was forthcoming.
24 So I don't recall exactly which it
25 was, but that was the first time that I was
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1 called to EOC to discuss Katrina and its
2 possible impacts for the area.
3 Q. Was Walter Maestri with you on Friday?
4 A. Although I don't have a specific
5 recollection, I would be surprised if he would
6 not have been there for that meeting.
7 Q. Was he there at the command center for
8 most of the time directly before Hurricane
9 Katrina and following Hurricane Katrina?
10 A. I don't know the answer to that as far
11 as the actual time that he was in that building
12 or out of that building. I would refer you to
13 Mr. Maestri or to whatever records there are
14 available of indicating when that person or any
15 other personnel might have been in or out of
16 that building. It was, as you can imagine, a
17 lot of people coming together at about that
18 time.
19 Q. Do you recall seeing Mr. Maestri there?
20 A. Oh, yes.
21 Q. On a lot of occasions; is that correct?
22 A. I saw him often there, yes, ma'am.
23 Q. Did you and Mr. Maestri talk?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did he discuss with you that he was
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1 going to make a decision to remove the pump
2 operators from their places in Jefferson Parish
3 and close down the pumps?
4 A. No, ma'am.
5 Q. He never discussed that?
6 A. No, ma'am.
7 Q. Did you have any knowledge that he was
8 going to make that decision?
9 A. No, ma'am.
10 Q. Do you know if he made that decision
11 independently, on his own, or did he consult
12 with other people?
13 A. My understanding, after the fact, is
14 that that was part of the plan that was devised
15 by emergency management.
16 Q. Is it stated in the Doomsday Plan that
17 if a hurricane is approaching, pump operators
18 would be removed from their positions?
19 A. I would let the plan speak for itself.
20 Q. Well, you have read the plan, haven't
21 you, Mr. Broussard?
22 A. I have reviewed the plan, yes.
23 Q. After having reviewed that plan, can you
24 show me anywhere in that plan where it says
25 that when a hurricane is approaching, pump
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1 operators will be removed from the pumps?
2 A. Ma'am, if you'll show me the plan right
3 now, I'll read it in front of you.
4 MS. JACOBS:
5 You want to give him a copy of it
6 Dennis? You have a copy.
7 MR. PHAYER:
8 I don't have a copy. I'm sure we
9 have a copy in the office.
10 MS. JACOBS:
11 Can we temporarily go off the record
12 and get a copy of it? Because I do have some
13 questions to ask him about that, and in
14 fairness to Mr. Broussard, I want him to be
15 able to adequately answer my questions.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
17 Off the record at 9:43.
18 (BRIEF RECESS)
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
20 Back on the record at 9:53.
21 MS. JACOBS:
22 Miss Reporter, would you please
23 read back the previous question that we had to
24 the deponent?
25 (COURT REPORTER READ BACK)
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1 THE WITNESS:
2 After reviewing a copy of the
3 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan that's
4 in front of me, which I have just reviewed for
5 the purposes of making this answer, there are
6 two areas in this plan that would constitute an
7 answer to your question.
8 The first would be under the title
9 of Personnel, in which it states that ALL, and
10 that is in bold and underlined, ALL activated
11 Jefferson Parish Emergency Personnel under the
12 direct authority of the parish president, and
13 it defines that as Jefferson Parish Employees,
14 will immediately evacuate to the Jefferson
15 Parish Employee Shelter at Mount Hermon High
16 School in Mount Hermon, Louisiana. Then it
17 states a number of exceptions.
18 The second reference would be under
19 Logistics, which is underlined. On the second
20 page, the last sentence of Logistics, it says,
21 "Special," and it says, in quotes, "Wet Fleet"
22 vehicles will be used to ferry teams working at
23 isolated pump stations to shelters. It says
24 see Appendix A.
25 Q. In furtherance of the questions, the
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1 Catastrophic Weather Event, also referred to as
2 the Doomsday Plan, can you tell us when that
3 was enacted?
4 MR. PHAYER:
5 Do you mean in connection with when
6 it was implemented during Katrina or when --
7 MS. JACOBS:
8 No. When it was enacted, when the
9 plan was enacted.
10 MR. PHAYER:
11 Drawn up?
12 MS. JACOBS:
13 Yes.
14 THE WITNESS:
15 It was previous to my
16 administration. What I remember being told was
17 that it was approximately 1998. I could be a
18 year off on that, but I recall being told 1998.
19 BY MS. JACOBS:
20 Q. When you took office, did you review the
21 plan?
22 A. No, ma'am.
23 Q. Did you make any changes to the plan?
24 A. I did not, no, ma'am.
25 Q. What is meant by a catastrophic weather
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1 event? What does the term "catastrophic" mean?
2 A. This plan, under the title of Prologue,
3 says, "In the event that Jefferson Parish faces
4 a catastrophic weather event, defined as a
5 confirmed forecast from the National Weather
6 Service/National Hurricane Center of a Category
7 IV or greater hurricane, making landfall within
8 the Metropolitan Region, the following plan
9 will be implemented immediately."
10 Q. But it's correct that Hurricane Katrina
11 never was a Category 4 hurricane when it came
12 into land; is that correct?
13 A. Well, this says a confirmed forecast,
14 which means that this is, as is defined in a
15 prologue, this is what is being confirmed by
16 the National Weather Service in advance of a
17 hurricane coming into the area.
18 Q. Isn't it a fact that when they were
19 predicting landfall right before the hurricane
20 came in, they never said it would be a -- it
21 would strike with Category 4 winds in the
22 Jefferson Parish area?
23 A. I do not recall the exact predictions
24 that were made by the weather service at
25 different times, but I'll just refer to the
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1 public record that does itemize what the
2 National Weather Service issued as its
3 forecast, because this relates to forecast. It
4 doesn't say here what times. It just says
5 forecast.
6 Q. Do you have anything in writing that you
7 can refer us to today that would say that you
8 received information that Hurricane Katrina
9 would make landfall with Category 4 winds?
10 A. I would again refer you to the public
11 record of the documents that we have in
12 Jefferson Parish's possession that would
13 confirm what the predictions and the forecasts
14 were of the National Weather Service.
15 As I mentioned to you earlier,
16 there were phone conferences that were
17 conducted at regular times. I don't remember
18 when the first one began, but once they begin,
19 they're usually at regular times each day that
20 the weather service makes their forecast and
21 gives up-to-date forecast information as part
22 of that phone conference, and that phone
23 conference was shared by a multitude of
24 different agencies, as I've described earlier.
25 Q. Can you give us the name of any person
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1 associated with the weather bureau or
2 forecasting from the National Weather Service
3 who told you that when Hurricane Katrina came
4 on shore, it would strike the Metropolitan
5 Jefferson Parish Area with Category 4 hurricane
6 winds? Can you give us a name?
7 MR. PHAYER:
8 Who told Mr. Broussard personally or
9 told the parish?
10 MS. JACOBS:
11 Right. Well, let's take it both
12 ways. Told Mr. Broussard personally and then
13 told the parish in which he may have heard it.
14 THE WITNESS:
15 The only communication that I would
16 have been -- that I was privy to with the
17 National Weather Service, that I recall, were
18 these conference calls in which the weather
19 service would make their forecasts known to
20 everyone on the conference call. As far as any
21 communications that may have been held between
22 the weather service or personnel of the weather
23 service directly to my emergency management
24 office, I don't have any recollection of who
25 that person might be.
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1 BY MS. JACOBS:
2 Q. So you cannot give us a name as you sit
3 here today; is that correct?
4 A. I cannot, as we sit here today, but I'm
5 sure public records will reveal that name or
6 those names that were representing the National
7 Weather Service at that time.
8 Q. It is correct, as you sit here today,
9 that Hurricane Katrina did not come on shore
10 with Category 4 winds; is that correct?
11 A. Well, I don't have the expertise to make
12 that assessment. I'd refer you again to those
13 experts who make those category judgments.
14 Q. So as you sit here today, you're telling
15 us in this room that you do not know what the
16 velocity of the winds were when Hurricane
17 Katrina came on shore?
18 A. My recollection is that there have been
19 different assessments of that storm since it
20 hit landfall, and those assessments have, if I
21 recall, been changed by various experts, and
22 I'm not an expert to render judgment on the
23 scientific category of that storm.
24 Q. I'm talking about your own personal
25 knowledge as parish president, following
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1 Hurricane Katrina, can you tell us the velocity
2 of the winds when it struck the Jefferson
3 Parish area?
4 A. No, ma'am, I cannot tell you that.
5 Q. It's correct, though, that the
6 Catastrophic Weather Event, referred to as the
7 Doomsday Plan, should be implemented only when
8 the National Hurricane Center says that there
9 is a Category 4 or greater hurricane making
10 landfall within the metropolitan region?
11 A. That's what the plan says, make landfall
12 within the metropolitan region.
13 Q. So if there is no forecast of a Category
14 4 or greater hurricane, is it correct that this
15 Catastrophic Weather Event, or the Doomsday
16 Plan, should not be implemented?
17 A. Well, the prologue says exactly as I
18 read it. I'll let it speak for itself.
19 Q. A Category 4, according to my experts,
20 is a 135 miles per hour and above winds. Can
21 you tell us with any certainty whether or not
22 you know that Jefferson Parish experienced 135-
23 mile-an-hour winds or above following Hurricane
24 Katrina, during or following -- rather during
25 Hurricane Katrina?
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1 A. No, ma'am.
2 Q. Going back, once again, to my previous
3 question, as parish president, reviewing the
4 Doomsday Plan, it should not be implemented
5 unless it's a Category 4 or greater hurricane
6 that's being forecasted, according to the
7 written document?
8 A. Yes, ma'am. I think you are recounting
9 the document just as I read it.
10 Q. Now, this particular document says that
11 the following people will remain in the Parish
12 of Jefferson throughout the event. It lists a
13 bunch of people. It also lists the pump
14 station director; is that correct?
15 A. That title is there, yes.
16 Q. Who was the pump station director during
17 Hurricane Katrina?
18 A. I would refer you to public record on
19 that. I do not recall who --
20 Q. You don't know who he was?
21 A. I do not recall the name, no, ma'am.
22 Q. Do you know whether or not he remained
23 in Jefferson Parish?
24 A. No, ma'am, I do not.
25 Q. Did you make any attempt to see whether
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1 or not he remained, as parish president?
2 A. No, ma'am, I did not.
3 Q. Do you know if anybody else made any
4 attempt to see if he remained?
5 A. No, ma'am, I don't.
6 Q. As parish president, do you know if the
7 other people listed in this category, the chief
8 administrative assistant, the parish attorney,
9 the emergency manager, et cetera, all these
10 other people that are listed here, remained in
11 Jefferson Parish during Hurricane Katrina?
12 A. Certainly, I knew that Tim Whitmer was
13 here. Certainly, I knew that Tom Wilkinson was
14 here.
15 Q. Who were they?
16 A. Tom Wilkinson is the parish attorney.
17 Tim Whitmer is the chief administrative
18 assistant. Walter Maestri would be the
19 emergency manager.
20 Q. Was he here during the entire event?
21 A. To my recollection, yes.
22 Q. Look at the other people. General
23 services director, the director of engineering,
24 do you know if they were there?
25 A. I don't have any independent
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1 recollection of them.
2 Q. You don't know even know who they are;
3 is that correct?
4 A. No recollection at this time.
5 Q. Turn to the second page. It says, "It
6 will be the responsibility of the Directors of
7 Pump Stations, Streets, Drainage, and the other
8 field based departments to make sure that their
9 employees are at the "in parish" employee
10 shelters at the appointed time." Does it say
11 that?
12 A. Yes, ma'am.
13 Q. What is an in-parish employee shelter?
14 A. That would have to be defined by the
15 director of emergency management, because there
16 is no definition given in this plan.
17 Q. So you don't know what it is, where it's
18 located, or where it was located during
19 Hurricane Katrina?
20 A. No, ma'am.
21 Q. As you sit here today, do you know
22 whether or not any pump station operators were
23 in the in-parish employee shelters?
24 A. No, ma'am.
25 Q. As you sit here today, at the time of
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1 Hurricane Katrina, it's your testimony, under
2 oath, that you don't know where these in-parish
3 employee shelters were located?
4 A. If in fact they existed at all in
5 Katrina, no, ma'am, I don't.
6 Q. So before Hurricane Katrina made
7 landfall, and knowing that a Doomsday Plan was
8 going to be implemented, as parish president,
9 you never made any attempt to look at this plan
10 and determine whether or not the plan was going
11 to be implemented as directed?
12 A. Your question says that I knew that the
13 Doomsday Plan was going to be implemented.
14 I've already testified that I did not know this
15 plan existed calling for the evacuation of the
16 pump operators. So your question to me would
17 not be a question that I could answer any other
18 way than I've answered before, that I was not
19 made aware of this plan prior to Katrina.
20 Q. So you didn't know if it existed. Do
21 you know if Walter Maestri followed this plan,
22 and I'm referring to the Catastrophic Weather
23 Event Doomsday Plan, at the time of Hurricane
24 Katrina?
25 A. I would assume, assume, that he followed
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1 these plans. I don't have any personal
2 knowledge that he followed every element of
3 every plan that was in front of him. I don't
4 have that knowledge as we speak.
5 Q. He never gave you a copy of it and said
6 that this was the plan that was going to be
7 followed?
8 A. No, ma'am.
9 Q. As parish president, "the head of the
10 ship," as we may say in admiralty and maritime
11 law, wasn't it your responsibility to know what
12 type of plan was going to be implemented in the
13 case of an impending disaster which could be
14 catastrophic?
15 A. I would have assumed that all directors
16 would forward to me all information that I
17 needed to know on a need-to-know basis. That's
18 an assumption that I would always make of my
19 directors under emergency plans or any other
20 plans. I would make that assumption.
21 Q. You had no meeting with them to
22 determine what they were going to do or what
23 course they were going to follow prior to the
24 arrival of Hurricane Katrina?
25 A. Except in regards to, as I mentioned
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1 before, the conference calls that were held on
2 a regular basis, and then the determination
3 about citizen evacuation was an independent
4 discussion, because that is a matter of
5 coordination with other parishes and
6 coordination with the state in regards to
7 contraflow. So that is a decision that I was
8 asked to participate in and to make a decision
9 on.
10 Q. I think my direct question to you was,
11 as parish president, as head of the ship, as we
12 say in admiralty and maritime law, did you make
13 any attempt to meet with your directors or
14 emergency management chiefs or personnel to
15 determine what plan they had for the parish
16 with regard to the evacuation of essential
17 personnel, such as pump operators, prior to the
18 arrival of Hurricane Katrina?
19 A. No, ma'am.
20 Q. Is there any particular reason why you
21 did not, because you were parish president?
22 A. Again, emergency plans are written in
23 advance of emergencies, and these plans are
24 implemented according to their own benchmarks
25 and their guidelines. I trusted the people
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1 that were in place.
2 Q. You said that you read the Doomsday
3 Plan. Is it correct that you did not even know
4 they had a Doomsday Plan before Hurricane
5 Katrina?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. You didn't read it until after Hurricane
8 Katrina?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. When did you read it?
11 A. I do not remember the exact day or the
12 exact time, but it was after the event, at the
13 time that this became an issue, and I asked --
14 Q. In other words, the lawsuits become an
15 issue?
16 A. No. I don't think the lawsuits were
17 filed at that time, but I don't recall the
18 exact timing. Once it became an issue for
19 questioning by the press, I recall wanting to
20 see a copy of this plan myself and to review
21 it.
22 Q. The parish president is a very important
23 position. It's the top echelon. Would you
24 agree with that?
25 A. Well, it is one of the top positions in
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1 the parish government. There are eight elected
2 to run the parish, seven councilmen and one
3 parish president, so certainly I'm one of
4 eight.
5 Q. Would you say that the buck stops with
6 you as parish president, generally, in decision
7 making?
8 A. I think from an accountability stand-
9 point in the public eye, that's certainly a
10 perception.
11 Q. As parish president, didn't you keep an
12 hourly track on what was happening prior to
13 Hurricane Katrina?
14 A. I did not. I assume that there are
15 records with emergency management that would be
16 tracking the conference calls that I mentioned
17 earlier and other events, such as press
18 conferences that were held.
19 Q. So you didn't feel that that was your
20 responsibility?
21 A. No, ma'am.
22 Q. You relied on others to make the
23 decisions regarding the emergency situation
24 created by Hurricane Katrina?
25 A. I relied on others to implement all
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1 plans.
2 Q. Not knowing what those plans would be?
3 A. Not knowing exactly what those plans
4 would be.
5 Q. Did you ever inquire to Mr. Maestri or
6 anyone else whether or not the pump operators
7 would be available to man the pumping stations
8 when Hurricane Katrina made landfall?
9 A. No, ma'am.
10 Q. Didn't you think that that was very
11 important?
12 A. I did not review personally or
13 anticipate personally every aspect of the
14 ramifications of the approaching storm. I
15 trusted the people that were in the positions
16 they were in. I trusted them to implement the
17 plans that had been prepared in the advent of
18 an emergency.
19 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Maestri
20 has a degree in economics, would you say that
21 he is imminently prepared to make decisions
22 regarding Jefferson Parish safety, with
23 a degree in economics?
24 A. I'm not an expert that can give you an
25 answer to that. I know that emergency
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1 management personnel go to seminars and
2 trainings and specialized conferences. I don't
3 know how many of those Mr. Maestri attended.
4 I don't think I'm qualified to give you that
5 answer.
6 Q. Is it correct that it was Mr. Maestri
7 who gave the order for the pump operators to
8 evacuate the pumps?
9 A. I don't know that for a fact. That is
10 something that, again, public record would have
11 to reveal.
12 Q. What public record?
13 A. Whatever record that we have at our
14 disposal to let you view.
15 Q. He never told you prior to the
16 evacuation that the pump operators were going
17 to be evacuated?
18 A. No, ma'am.
19 Q. Would you have agreed with that
20 decision?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. You don't know if you would have agreed
23 with it?
24 A. (Witness nods head.)
25 Q. When did you first find out that the
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1 pump operators were evacuated?
2 A. After they left.
3 Q. Was that before the arrival of Hurricane
4 Katrina or afterwards?
5 A. It was before.
6 Q. How soon before?
7 A. I don't recall the exact hour or time.
8 I remember it being approximately Sunday
9 evening when I was told.
10 Q. What did you do at that time?
11 A. I asked whether or not the canals had
12 been pumped down to the lowest possible degree
13 and whether or not debris had been cleared away
14 from the screens so that there would be as
15 little impediment to pumping as possible when
16 the pump operators returned to their duties.
17 Q. Who informed you that the pump operators
18 would not be manning their pumping stations?
19 A. Tim Whitmer.
20 Q. What was his occupation with the
21 administration at that time?
22 A. He is the chief administrative officer
23 of the parish.
24 Q. Did he tell you who made the decision to
25 remove the pump operators?
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1 A. No, ma'am.
2 Q. Did you ask him?
3 A. He said it was the plan that was in
4 place. Yes, I asked him.
5 Q. Did he give you a name of anybody?
6 A. He said it was in the plan to do it that
7 way.
8 Q. Did he tell you that he made that
9 decision?
10 A. No, he did not.
11 Q. Did you ask who made the decision?
12 A. Yes. He said it was in the plan.
13 Q. Now, after the fact, and now knowing
14 that a lot of your parish flooded, have you
15 gone back to do an independent investigation to
16 determine who made the decision to remove the
17 pump operators?
18 A. It was this plan that we have in front
19 of us at this moment. That is the basis of the
20 decisions that were made regarding evacuation
21 of all personnel. This is the plan that was in
22 effect, and the plan was implemented.
23 Q. I understand that you have a plan, and
24 that the plan was implemented. Who gave the
25 authority for the plan to be implemented?
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1 A. Well, if a plan is in effect, and it has
2 its benchmarks that are incorporated in the
3 plan, then the plan is activated according to
4 benchmarks that trigger those aspects of the
5 plan.
6 Q. Who activated it?
7 A. Well, I would assume it would have been
8 the Office of Emergency Management, who has the
9 direct oversight of the plan and the
10 implementation of the plan, as I said earlier
11 in my conversation.
12 Q. Would that be Mr. Maestri?
13 A. Yes. That's my assumption, it would be
14 Mr. Maestri.
15 MS. JACOBS:
16 In connection with the testimony of
17 Mr. Broussard, I'd like to offer, introduce,
18 and file into evidence the Catastrophic Weather
19 Event Doomsday Plan as B-1 and ask it be filed.
20 MR. PHAYER:
21 Darleen, can we use this copy?
22 This is Bates stamped. This is what we
23 previously produced.
24 MS. JACOBS:
25 We'll mark it B-1 and give it to the
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1 court reporter.
2 BY MS. JACOBS:
3 Q. Could you, as parish president, have
4 vetoed the decision to remove the pump
5 operators?
6 A. I don't know the answer to that.
7 Q. Did you have any reservations about
8 whether or not they should remain in their
9 pumping stations?
10 A. I was told after the fact.
11 Q. Well, I thought you just told us that
12 you actually were told Sunday, the Sunday
13 before the storm, that the pump operators were
14 going to not be at their pumping stations?
15 A. What I said was that they had already
16 left, by the time that I was told that they had
17 left the stations. They had already evacuated
18 the parish.
19 Q. Do you know where they had been
20 evacuated to?
21 A. I asked at that time, and I was told
22 Mount Hermon.
23 Q. Did you know they actually went to
24 Tangipahoa?
25 A. I know that because at the time that
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1 they arrived in Mount Hermon, there was
2 communication back to the EOC that the
3 designated shelter was filled to capacity. So
4 I contacted the parish president in Washington
5 Parish and asked for assistance for all of the
6 emergency personnel. There was a large caravan
7 of vehicles and a large contingency of
8 employees that were involved.
9 Q. So it's correct then that they were not
10 in the parish, in in-parish employee shelters?
11 A. I do not know if in-parish shelters were
12 set up as a prelude to Katrina and whether or
13 not these essential personnel that are
14 described in this plan went to an in-parish
15 shelter as a staging area, as a loading area.
16 They could have easily gone do an in-parish
17 shelter as a loading area. I don't know that
18 for a fact. You're asking me that question.
19 My answer is I don't know that for a fact, but
20 an in-parish shelters could have been set up as
21 collection points for essential personnel for
22 transport purposes.
23 Q. Let's's go back to that plan,
24 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan. It
25 says, "It will be the responsibility of the
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1 Directors of Pump Stations, Streets, Drainage
2 and the other field based departments to make
3 sure that their employees are in the
4 'in-parish' employee shelters at the appointed
5 time." On Sunday night, you knew, or you were
6 told that the employees, or the pump operators,
7 had been evacuated, not to any place in the
8 parish but actually to Mount Hermon. Is that a
9 fact, yes or no?
10 A. That's what I was told, yes.
11 Q. The person that told you that was whom?
12 A. Tim Whitmer.
13 Q. As you sit here today, you do not know
14 who gave the order to send them to Tangipahoa?
15 A. No, ma'am.
16 Q. Because you did not review a copy of the
17 Doomsday Plan, you had no knowledge at that
18 time as to what the Doomsday Plan required to
19 be implemented?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. If you had had a copy of the
22 Catastrophic Weather Event Doomsday Plan, you
23 would have known that the plan says that it
24 would be the responsibility of the director of
25 the pump stations to have their employees in
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1 the in-parish employee shelters at the
2 appointed time?
3 A. I did not have a copy.
4 Q. You would have known it if you would
5 have had a copy?
6 A. If I would have had a copy, I would be
7 reading the same language that you're quoting
8 to me now.
9 Q. Did you know on Sunday that there was a
10 Doomsday Plan that was being implemented?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Nobody told you that?
13 A. No, ma'am.
14 Q. As parish president, you never made any
15 attempt, knowing there was a hurricane
16 approaching, to get a copy of the Doomsday
17 Plan?
18 A. No, ma'am. I did not know it existed.
19 Q. You never asked anyone?
20 A. About a plan that I did not know exists?
21 No, ma'am.
22 Q. I'm a little bit curious, because, as
23 parish president, you're the, quote, as we said
24 before, the head of the ship. Are you telling
25 us today, as we sit here, that everybody around
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1 you, apparently, knew that there was a Doomsday
2 Plan. Mr. Maestri knew it, the gentleman you
3 just mentioned who was the head of operations
4 knew it, but you, as parish president, didn't
5 know there was a written plan?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. You did not?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Whose responsibility was it to get a
10 copy of this plan to you?
11 A. All responsibilities involving emergency
12 preparedness would have come under the Office
13 of Emergency Preparedness. The director was
14 Walter Maestri. He was the director at the
15 time. You're asking me a question about whose
16 responsibility it was. I don't know where that
17 responsibility is spelled out in any document,
18 et cetera, so I don't know the exact answer to
19 that question. My assumption is, anything
20 regarding emergency preparedness usually comes
21 through the director of that department, as
22 with any other department.
23 Q. You knew that the Doomsday Plan, though,
24 was being implemented on Sunday, Sunday
25 evening, I think you testified?
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1 A. After all essential personnel had been
2 evacuated, including the pump operators, that's
3 when I became aware that the evacuation of the
4 operators had taken place, after the fact.
5 Q. At that time, did you ask for a copy of
6 the Doomsday Plan from anyone, Mr. Maestri or
7 anybody else?
8 A. No, ma'am.
9 Q. You never asked for it?
10 A. Not at that time, no, ma'am.
11 Q. If you had a copy of that plan, would
12 you have followed the plan?
13 A. I don't know the answer to that.
14 Q. Did you all ever have any type of
15 scenarios where you all actually planned for a
16 fake hurricane, in the event of a fake
17 hurricane, and actually went through exercises
18 to see what would happen in the event that a
19 catastrophic hurricane would approach?
20 A. Not that I was invited to participate in
21 and not that I recall.
22 Q. Do you remember the Hurricane Jean
23 exercise?
24 A. No, ma'am. Do I have an independent
25 recollection of that? No, ma'am.
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1 Q. It was a state exercise in the event
2 that they had a catastrophic hurricane
3 approaching, and a lot of agencies took place
4 in it, to prepare for a natural disaster, such
5 as a hurricane. You're telling us -- that
6 happened in, I believe, 2004. You never
7 participated in that?
8 A. I don't have an independent recollection
9 of that. I do not recall at all participating
10 in that. You're saying that was a state
11 exercise?
12 Q. Right.
13 A. No, ma'am, I did not participate in
14 that state exercise.
15 Q. As parish president, I take it you're
16 familiar with parish drainage issues; is that
17 correct?
18 A. I have a general knowledge, not
19 necessarily a specific academic knowledge.
20 Q. Do you know how rainfall events affect
21 large portions of Jefferson Parish?
22 A. In a general way, yes.
23 Q. Well, let's take, for instance, the May
24 1995 flood. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, ma'am. I was mayor of Kenner at
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1 the time.
2 Q. That was a rain event?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did that affect a large portion of
5 Jefferson Parish?
6 A. There were a number of areas that were
7 flooded as a result of that rain event.
8 Q. Based on your recollection, can you tell
9 us today what areas of the parish were affected
10 with flooding?
11 A. I was mayor of Kenner at the time. I
12 don't have an independent recollection of those
13 areas that would have been flooded throughout
14 the parish.
15 Q. So you can't remember any areas that
16 were flooded?
17 A. I remember that River Ridge and the
18 Harahan area experienced flooding. I recall
19 that specifically. I don't recall all areas
20 that were impacted as a result of that flood.
21 Q. Historically, in Jefferson Parish, are
22 there rainfall flooding problems with
23 particular areas?
24 A. Generally, rainfall doesn't fall evenly
25 when it falls, so rainfall can fall heavier in
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1 certain areas, in certain times, and for longer
2 durations, therefore, there are many different
3 factors that could affect whether or not an
4 area floods, its elevation, the amount of
5 rainfall, and its duration.
6 Q. Would you tell us what particular
7 flooding problems existed on the east bank of
8 Jefferson Parish with historical rainfall
9 flooding problems, based on your knowledge?
10 A. Well, just in general, you've had a
11 number of different areas in East Jefferson
12 that have experienced flooding, depending on
13 the rain event, as I just testified earlier,
14 depending on the amount of rain and where it
15 fell. River Ridge, for instance, in Harahan,
16 were always considered to be higher elevation,
17 closer to the river, and yet they experienced
18 flooding in the event that you've just
19 mentioned.
20 Q. Any other areas on the east bank that
21 you can remember?
22 A. Generally, as you go further north, and
23 the elevation is less, there would have been,
24 I'm certain, other events that would have
25 occurred throughout our modern history that
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1 could have created flooding problems in those
2 areas, again, because of elevation, duration of
3 rainfall, and the amount or the intensity of
4 the rain.
5 Q. What about the west bank?
6 A. West bank is, again, topographically
7 similar in the sense that the higher elevations
8 are at the river, and then they graduate in a
9 slope back towards southerly, in a southerly
10 direction, back toward the marshes. So, again,
11 elevation, duration of rainfall, intensity of
12 the rainfall, those are factors that all would
13 contribute to a potential flooding situation.
14 Q. I'm sorry. I'm referring to -- going
15 back to my previous question, I said it was
16 Hurricane Jean. I think it was Hurricane Pam
17 that was the exercise in 2004 which was the
18 imaginary hurricane going to be catastrophic.
19 Did you participate in that?
20 A. I recall that name, but I was, again,
21 not a participant in that exercise. I did not,
22 no, ma'am.
23 Q. Do the east bank drainage canals
24 interconnect so as to provide drainage for
25 large areas?
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1 A. It's an integrated system of canals,
2 east bank and west bank.
3 Q. The west bank canals also interconnect?
4 A. Yes. It's an integrated system.
5 Q. Can you tell us how they are
6 interconnected?
7 A. Basically north, south, east, west.
8 Q. Who could actually give us information
9 as to how they're connected?
10 A. I would direct you to our director of
11 drainage.
12 Q. If the canals are interconnected,
13 doesn't that mean that rain water runoff in
14 canals will flow to the lowest level?
15 A. The drainage system is a gravity system.
16 It's designed that way, so it would be "gravity
17 fed," I think is the term that they use. So
18 it's a gravity-fed system, east bank and west
19 bank.
20 Q. Doesn't it also mean the rainfall runoff
21 would start overflowing the canal banks if
22 there is no pumping going on?
23 A. That would depend again on the amount of
24 rainfall, the duration of the rainfall, and the
25 topography in which the rain fell.
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1 Q. Who can you point us to that would have
2 information?
3 A. Our drainage director would have a lot
4 of information in regards to our pumping
5 capacities and the direction of flows in the
6 canals.
7 Q. As parish president, are you familiar
8 with the parish's drainage pump capacity?
9 A. It's ever changing, so any amount of
10 capacity you want at a certain time, I would
11 again direct you to the drainage director.
12 Each pumping station has different capacities,
13 and those capacities can be altered by repair
14 schedules. They can be altered by Corps
15 improvements or improvements that we're making
16 through Corps programs, so they could be
17 changing from time to time.
18 Q. Have you ever discussed the parish's
19 draining pump capacity with anyone?
20 A. Well, certainly, through the SELA
21 Program, we're always forwarding information,
22 our parish government, is always forwarding
23 information of requests for improvements to our
24 overall drainage system that we have been
25 working with the Corps of Engineers through
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1 Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Program.
2 There are dollars that are generated through
3 this program which the parish matches on a
4 75/25 percent basis.
5 Q. Can you refer us to any sources of
6 information, such as drainage department
7 statistics, public information reports
8 concerning parish drainage pump capacity?
9 A. Yes. In regards to the SELA Program
10 that I just mentioned, we often report to the
11 citizens at least once a year what the status
12 of our SELA Programs are. That would relate to
13 pumping capacities and canal improvements.
14 Q. Is the parish drainage pump capacity
15 intended to protect the entire east and west
16 banks?
17 A. It's designed to pump as much as it can
18 pump according to the capacity that it has.
19 When you talk about the word "protection," then
20 that assumes that there is a formula that
21 guaranties protection. I don't know of a
22 formula that guaranties protection. I don't
23 have the expertise to give you that formula.
24 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina,
25 approximately how many people lived on the east
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1 bank?
2 A. I don't know the exact number. The
3 majority of people have traditionally lived on
4 the east bank of our parish. In the last
5 several decades, that's been the case, So the
6 majority of the people would have lived on the
7 east bank of the parish.
8 Q. Can give us a number, an approximate
9 number?
10 A. Roughly, 460,000 people, approximately,
11 pre-Katrina. You would have probably had close
12 to 60 percent of that population on the east
13 bank.
14 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina, do you
15 know approximately how many people lived on the
16 west bank of Jefferson Parish?
17 A. Again, that would be an approximation.
18 Approximately 40 percent, although, we have
19 population statistics that I can make readily
20 available to you that would give you the most
21 exact numbers that we have available to us.
22 Q. Where would those statistics be located?
23 A. They would probably be -- well, they
24 would certainly be in our files, as we get
25 updates on population from the Census Bureau,
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1 is one. And there is a university in Louisiana
2 that typically updates in between the census
3 tracts of ten years. So whatever information
4 we have in our files, if you make the request
5 for it, I'll provide that information for you.
6 Q. At the time of Hurricane Katrina, do you
7 know how many houses were located on the east
8 bank versus the west bank?
9 A. No, ma'am.
10 Q. Do you know if anyone would have that
11 information?
12 A. You can request it of us. Again,
13 whatever information we have may be through
14 JEDCO, possibly through our water meter counts.
15 We could certainly give you that. Our water
16 meters might be the best indicator that we'd
17 have control over. The electric company would
18 have electric meters as a means of estimating
19 the number of houses.
20 Q. Can you tell us what historical rainfall
21 events have caused wide areas of flooding on
22 the east bank and west bank of Jefferson
23 Parish?
24 A. Since what date?
25 Q. Well, since 1995.
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1 A. Well, I think the one you mentioned in
2 1995 was the biggest event of any that has
3 happened since. I mean, obviously, other than
4 Katrina. Katrina would have been the biggest.
5 And '95 certainly would have been the other
6 major one that stands out in my mind.
7 Q. Isn't it a fact that even before
8 Hurricane Katrina you were aware that flooding
9 on the east and west bank was a parishwide
10 threat in certain areas?
11 A. Because we are surrounded by levees on
12 both the east and west bank, we are always
13 susceptible to the happenstance of heavy
14 rainfall coming into our area, creating more
15 rainwater than we have pumping capacity.
16 Q. How many pumping stations do they have
17 on the east bank of Jefferson Parish?
18 A. We have, to my recollection, and I can
19 give you exact records, we have six major
20 stations.
21 Q. How many pumping stations do they have
22 on the west bank of Jefferson Parish?
23 A. You have a greater number because you
24 have a number of smaller stations. In some
25 instances, you have unmanned stations. Around
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1 13 would be my approximation, but we can give
2 you the exact number at your request.
3 Q. You know where these pumping stations
4 are located?
5 A. Again, I will give you the locations of
6 each of those stations, east bank and west
7 bank. I'd rather be exact in my answer, so
8 we'll provide that information to you.
9 MS. JACOBS:
10 We'd like to call for production of
11 that, Dennis, and the locations of the pumping
12 stations on the east and west bank.
13 MR. PHAYER:
14 I'll be happy to look for that. We
15 may have produced some of this previously in
16 discovery.
17 MS. JACOBS:
18 I don't recall it being produced.
19 MR. PHAYER:
20 That's fine. We'll check that for
21 you.
22 BY MS. JACOBS:
23 Q. Can you tell us the total pumping
24 capacity of the drainage system in inches of
25 rainfall per hour for the east and west bank?
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1 A. Again, I'd refer you to our drainage
2 department. We can give you the exact numbers
3 of our pumping capacity. Are you asking for
4 that capacity now or at the time of Katrina?
5 Q. I'll ask Dennis to produce that for me.
6 At the time of the Hurricane Katrina is really
7 what we're interested in.
8 A. We can give you those figures that you
9 are requesting.
10 MR. PHAYER:
11 The pumping capacities of those?
12 Sure.
13 MS. JACOBS:
14 Exactly.
15 THE WITNESS:
16 They vary from station to station,
17 because the stations are different sizes.
18 BY MS. JACOBS:
19 Q. Are any of these pumping stations on the
20 east bank or the west bank automated? In other
21 words, can they operate with a switch?
22 A. I would prefer you get that information
23 from our drainage director. When you say the
24 word "automated," there are a lot of
25 connotations with that, as to the functionality
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1 of a station versus what ability you have to
2 turn on a certain piece of equipment. So,
3 typically, automation has a connotation to it.
4 You're asking this question at the time of
5 Katrina, so I would direct that question to the
6 expertise that could give you the answer, which
7 would be the drainage director.
8 Q. Isn't it a fact that you had knowledge
9 before Hurricane Katrina that if the pumps were
10 turned off that would increase the likelihood
11 of flooding in Jefferson Parish on the east and
12 west bank?
13 A. I don't recall any document that was
14 presented to me stating that fact.
15 Q. But because of the prior problems that
16 you've had in the parish with flooding,
17 certainly you knew if the pumps were not
18 operating, there was a propensity for the
19 parish to flood in certain areas?
20 A. Relative to the events that you
21 mentioned, there is a propensity to flood with
22 full capacity.
23 Q. But you did know that without these
24 pumps operating, there was more of a propensity
25 for the parish to flood?
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1 A. My experience is that rainfall of
2 undetermined amounts at unpredictable times can
3 create flooding in any area of the parish at
4 any time irregardless of a pumping capacity.
5 Q. That's why -- but that's why the parish
6 has pumps, to protect the parish from flooding;
7 is that right?
8 A. As best we can.
9 Q. Well, common sense would tell you that
10 the pumps are there for a reason; is that
11 right?
12 A. The pumps are there to give us as much
13 pumping capacity as we can to drain water from
14 the parish.
15 Q. If the pumps were turned off, that would
16 increase the likelihood of flooding, would it
17 not?
18 A. Well, again, that's an expertise level
19 that I would defer to experts, because you have
20 mentioned an event in 1995 that was a flood
21 event, irrespective of pumping capacity, that
22 flooded a great portion of the parish,
23 irrespective of pumping capacity. The question
24 seems to me to equate a certain level of
25 pumping capacity gives you protection against
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1 flooding. That is not the experience that I
2 have.
3 Q. Is your answer then today that you don't
4 know?
5 A. We can be flooded at any time by a
6 rainfall event of a high intensity for a long
7 duration. We can be flooded at any time
8 irrespective of pumping capacity.
9 Q. Would you agree, though, the purpose of
10 pumps is to try to reduce the flooding?
11 A. Ma'am, that requires an expert answer.
12 The pumps are there to drain water from the
13 parish. Your question begs a correlation
14 between a certain amount of pumping capacity
15 that would then give you a protection level.
16 And, again, I refer back to the example you
17 gave me. The 1995 event, despite whatever
18 pumping capacity was in effect at that time,
19 great portions of the parish were flooded. So
20 I don't have the expertise to give you the
21 answer that you're asking, because it
22 correlates pumping capacity with a protection
23 level, a protection against flooding, and I
24 don't have the expertise to give you that
25 formula.
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1 Q. Who would that have expertise?
2 A. That's a good question. I don't even
3 know that my drainage director would have that
4 question, but I would beg that question
5 possibly to the Corps of Engineers.
6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in May of
7 1995 they had 15 to 18 inches of rain that fell
8 in Jefferson Parish, and on August 29th of 2005
9 only six to eight inches fell?
10 A. Those exact statistics, I do not recall.
11 I was mayor of Kenner during the 1995 event and
12 not on the parish council or parish president.
13 On the recent events, again, I would have
14 records in my administration that I could
15 forward to you to document the statistics
16 you're quoting.
17 Q. You're not telling us, as we sit here
18 today, that every time Jefferson Parish
19 experiences rainfall, there is going to be
20 flooding in the parish, are you?
21 A. The question that I answered earlier is
22 the best way I can answer these variations is
23 that the topography of the area impacted, the
24 amount of rain that falls, the duration over
25 which that amount of rain falls, those are all
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1 independent factors that combined could create
2 a variety of different results.
3 Q. Do you know what the reservoir capacity
4 and cubic feet of the drainage canals is before
5 overflow occurs for the east and west bank?
6 A. I do not know that capacity; however, I
7 refer that to my drainage director, and we can
8 supply you the information that we have
9 regarding that.
10 Q. Did you have any knowledge before
11 Hurricane Katrina that in the absence of pumps
12 being operated, the drainage canals would fill
13 during a rain event and possibly overflow?
14 A. Again, I make reference to the fact that
15 drainage canals can overflow irregardless of
16 pumping capacity.
17 Q. Did you know before Hurricane Katrina
18 that even if a rainfall event exceeding pumping
19 capacity occurred, the amount of canal overflow
20 would be reduced, to some degree, by pumping,
21 such as that which occurred in May of 1995?
22 A. Again, pumping capacity reduces the
23 amount of water that falls in the parish.
24 Relating that to flooding is a formula that I
25 don't have the expertise to answer.
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1 Q. You would refer us again to the drainage
2 canal superintendent?
3 A. Yes, ma'am. Drainage director, yes,
4 ma'am.
5 Q. Were you living in Jefferson Parish
6 before Hurricane Katrina during any tropical
7 storms and hurricanes?
8 A. I've lived in Jefferson Parish since the
9 early fifties.
10 Q. Can you name some of those tropical
11 storms and hurricanes that occurred during your
12 residence in Jefferson Parish? I'm referring
13 to a time before Hurricane Katrina.
14 A. I don't know the name of the storm that
15 would have come, I don't recall it, in the
16 early fifties. I was a small child at the
17 time. There was one then. You are saying
18 tropical --
19 Q. Either a tropical storm or a hurricane.
20 A. I remember that was a hurricane of some
21 type. I don't remember the name of it. As you
22 would have gotten to more modern times,
23 certainly we -- Betsy was one that I remember,
24 in the sixties. That was probably the biggest
25 hurricane that hit us before Katrina. In
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1 between Betsy and Katrina, you had a number of
2 d