BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY - HAWAII CAMPUS B e h a v i o r a l and S o c i a l S c i e n c e s D i v i s i o n

L a i e , H a w a i i 9 6 7 6 2

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

NARRATOR: Alber t Like

INTERVIEW N O . : OH-149

DATE OF INTERVIEW: 15 November 1980

INTERVIEWER: Kenneth W. Baldridge

SUBJECT: Church in the Pacif ic--Hawai i

INTRODUCTION

Albert Like was born In Honolulu 19 April 1900 and has spent

his life there as a public-school educator, genealogist and, since

the age of 18, an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints. His church service has been extensive as an

officer and teacher in various church organizations. Perhaps

most unusual was his service as a bishop of Kakaako Ward, unusual

in that it is most uncommon for an unmarried man to be called to

this position.

In this interview he talked of his various church assignments,

his education at St. Louis High School and University of Hawaii,

church experiences at conferences. He describes the organization

of the Oahu Stake, the location of some of the early wards, and

the creation of subsequent stakes. He did not marry Bessie Tarn

until he was seventy years old.

He was eighty when we did the interview; his mind is as sharp

as a man half his age. He was just recently honored at a birthday

party in honor of his.eighty-fifth,birthday. The way he is going,

he will be around for nv£ eighty-fifth birthday, nearly three decades

away!

The transcribing was done by Pornchai Juntratip; Grace Pratt

audited and edited; I did further editing, and Donene Olmstead typed

the final draft and assembled the transcript.

Kenneth W. Baldridge, Director Oral History Program BYU-Hawai1 Campus

Laie, Hawaii 16 May, 1985

TABLE OF CONTENTS

TAPE TRANSCRIPT

Side A Page

OOO 1 Introduction to Mormonism as a non-member; baptism; incident in finding five dollars

217 3 Church assignments in Sunday School; attendance at Primary; Kakaako Branch

334 5 MIA contests; choirs 441 6 Education at St. Louis High School; attitudes

toward LDS Church 533 8 Mission conferences in Laie; chapels and

branches on Oahu; sacrament meetings in Hawaiian and English

649 11 Education at University of Hawaii; short-term mission to Hawaii; beginning of teaching career; chaplain at Central Intermediate

754 13 Hawaiian missionaries

770 13 END OF SIDE A

Side B

000 13 Baptism of Liliuokalani 101 15 Church assignments; Sunday School, genealogy,

missionary experience at Waiohimu, trans­portation in the mission field

346 19 ( Organization- of Oahu Stake, ordination of high priest—twice; service at Oahu Stake High Council

Bishop of Kakaako Ward Marriage in 1970; construction of Honolulu

Tabernacle and Kali hi Chapel Creation of Oahu Stake, Honolulu!, Pearl Habor,

and Waipahu Stakes Looking around Kalihi Chapel gymnasium

END OF INTERVIEW

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KB It's the 15th of November 1980. This is Ken Baldridge, I'm in the genealogical library in the Honolulu West Stake, talking to Albert Like about his experiences as a member of the Church in Hawaii. Albert, you were born in 1900, I believe you said.

AL April 19, 1900.

KB You were not a member of the Church at that time nor were any members of your family?

AL No, none of my family were members of the Church.

KB What was your first exposure to Mormonism? When did you first come in contact...?

AL Well, when I first came in contact was after the death of my dad, June 12, 1912. I lived with my aunt-in-law and she was a LDS; she took me to Primary. Those days Primaries were held at homes--in different homes of families. And at this Primary, I was introduced to the basic Gospel principles. As I grew along, got to know the members of the Church there; my aunt took me to Sunday School. So when I went to Suriday School, I was no sjtranger to the people there; I became a part of the membership of the Church there.

" So, all these years that I went to the Mormon church at Auwaiolimu-Punchbowl [just off Lusitana and Auwaiolimu iStreets]-

"T which was the headquarters--! began to participate in all the priesthood activities of the Church, in which I attended class; I went with the rest of the Aaronic priesthood boys to clean the church. On Saturday, we went there to mop the chapel, took out the rugs and then when we have the chapel clean we would turn those rugs. Then we went downstairs to the class­rooms and cleaned the classrooms. From then we went out into the yard and went into the outside restroom to clean the lavatory for the next day. And then early next Sunday morn­ing why, we would get some clean cloths and go upstairs to mop the benches down and also the benches in the classrooms. This is because of the sisters coming to church with their white dresses and some of the brothers, some of them came in the white trousers. Those days the deacons were not advanced to high offices too soon and so many of the older boys still were deacons and teachers during those years. But they did not complain. They just went along and did their chores as if they were not worried about any advancement to a higher--

[100] to their next offices in the Aaronic priesthood but we all enjoyed it ye ry much.

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So for many years I attended the LDS meetings, the Primary, the Sunday School and the priesthood meetings. And everyone considered me as one of the fami ly . And so that the president of the d i s t r i c t thought I was a member of the Church. I t was not un t i l Apr i l 19, 1918, the evening of the 18, when I approached my mother and asked i f i t ' s a l l r i gh t for me to become a member of the Mormon church. She hesitated and she s a i d , "Wel l , I am not g iv ing you my consent but w e ' l l pray about i t . " So she went in to fas t ing and prayer.

And I attended the Catholic school, St . Louis College, they cal led i t at the t ime. And i t was th is morning, my b i r thday, when we had a ra in which flooded our school out and so the boys of the Church came over and spent the morning wi th me and ta lked . At noon, a f te r they l e f t , my mother knocked at the w a l l . I went to her bedroom and she asked me i f I s t i l l , i f I s t i l l made up my mind to be a member of the Mormon church. I sa id , "Yes", and so she said to me, "You may have your w ish . " And so I l e f t home r i gh t soon without taking any baptism clothes or anything wi th me.

One of the d i s t r i c t presidents who was Elder Ernest !L. Miner, he was surprised to know that I was attending a l l these a c t i v i t i e s and I was a non-LDS. So, he asked me i f I had brought my baptism clothes wi th me. I sa i d , "No, I l e f t home; I did not want my mother to change her mind, so I decided to come soon on then." And so he sa id , "Wel l , I ' l l have you baptized in my son's pajamas." So he went home and got his son's pajamas and I was baptized and confirmed on that day as a member of the Church, and I rea l l y was very much happy about t ha t . And since that time the Lord's bless­ing has been wi th me.

But I l i k e ' t o repeat a l i t t l e incident that happened to me when I was s t i l l going to Primary. Those days Primary was not l i k e the

- Primary today, where you h a v e - l i t t l e chi ldren and they have t he i r • grades, and u n t i l they were about eleven and twelve they were moved

- r to the--no, the age group at the time was j u s t any age, as long as you were interested i n Primary. So we had boys and g i r l s who were twelve, t h i r t e e n , fourteen who would attend the Primary. We l l , one afternoon whi le I was i n Primary--!*t was in 1913-- i t was get­t i ng close to the Christmas hol iday, and i t ' s j u s t a week before the Thanksgiving week. And my thoughts began to wonder--we d idn ' t come from a r ich family and I d i d n ' t have any s u i t of c lo thes; I was barefoot. So I sat and I wondered. I said to myself, "What i f I f i nd a f i ve do l la r [ b i l l ] ? " Then I decided, "Gee', i f I f i nd a f i ve do l la r [ b i l l ] , I ' l l buy me a s u i t of c lo thes . " So while the teacher was teaching her lesson my mind wondered on th i s f i ve do l l a rs . F i na l l y , I made a decis ion, i f I f i nd a f i ve do l l a r s , I ' l l give i t to the Lord. So a f te r Primary was ove r - - I l i ved down i n Chinatown--my primary teacher and I we got on a t r a n s i t . At that time the t r a n s i t was consisted of a motorman and the conductor, the conductor was the one that col lected the t r a n s i t fares. Wel l , l i k e a l l the youngsters, I did not move in the f ron t wi th my Primary

[200] teacher; I l ingered at the back. I t was d r i zz l i ng so I moved to a seat in the f ron t and as I sat down on that seat there I turned to

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the right--there was a five dollar gold piece. Then I knew right away that I was gonna get me a suit of clothes. But then I made my decision that I was going to give the Lord that five dollars, so I took the five dollars and gave it to the Primary teacher. And from that day to this day, the Lord has blessed me. I have never been, I mean, I always have a little change in my pocket when I needed it.

So after I was baptized, my first assignment was the Sunday School teacher. And I was assigned to go way down to Kalia which is now where the Ala Moana [Shopping] Center is. At that time there used to be an open duck pond and you had to go on past. Well, that was a home Sunday School, the family that lived there stayed upstairs and the Sunday School was held in the basement. And that was where I first taught my first Sunday School, with one Elder W. W. King. And we used to walk that distance and we taught Sunday School. And when we had the district conference at Auwaiolimu we would gather these youngsters and catch the transit and go up and carry out our assignment on the program.

KB Were there any other families besides' the people that lived in that house?

AL Yes, see, they gathered the other LDS families that were in the neighborhood there, and they came. We had quite a number of members there that attended.

KB How many would you think were in attendance?

AL Well, at that time we had one family, two--we had, I think, about six families and that was the home Sunday School, that we held in the basement.

KB When you were going to Primary you said the classes were somewhat .. r different. Did they have the children divided into age group

classes or did everybody just meet together?

AL Well, when we came up here to Kalia, we all met as a group. Of course, we had two Primary teachers. But these were older children that gathered together. We did not have younsters, little child­ren, like they have today attend the Primary.

KB You said that the older children could go to Primary. Do you remember how long you went to the Primary?

AL Well, as I said I started in 1912, '13 then '14 then after that, a little, got involved in Sunday School. And then we went up here to Auwaiolimu, which is the Church center at the time.

KB Where were you going to Primary when you were twelve and thirteen?

AL We went down here to--you know where the Kukui Plaza is. There used to be Buckle Lane. There used to have lot of homes in the

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lane. We held our Primary at the home of Sister [Helen] Notley.

KB You went to priesthood meeting even though you did not have the priesthood yourse l f , you were not yet a member. Where did you go to priesthood meeting?

AL Wel l , up at Auwaiolimu, tha t ' s where the headquarters of the Church were. And we boys would get together and walk up to the--because I l i ved in Chinatown--we would go up to the Isaacs f am i l y - - t he i r boys--and then we a l l would walk up to the Auwaiolimu Chapel there.

KB You mentioned that the president was unaware that you were not a member. Because of them not knowing that you might not have been a member were you ever given any priesthood assignments?

AL No, no, I j u s t attended the c lass. Brother Joseph B. Musser was

our priesthood teacher at the t ime.

KB When you were bapt ized, was i t at the font there?

AL Yes, at Auwaiolimu.

KB Who b a p t i z e d y o u ? Do y o u remember?

AL Yes, Joseph Dayne. I was confirmed by David 01 sen. [300]

KB When you had th is Sunday School respons ib i l i t y and you v i s i t ed I the home Sunday School there in Kalia [ s i t e of Ala Moana Shopping

Center now] your assignment was as a teacher?

AL As a teacher.

KB - Were you assigned to teach any par t i cu la r age group or j u s t . . . AL -T No, we j u s t taught there. Wel l , they divided the younger and the

o lder , you see, I taught the younger and Elder King taught the o lder . Later Kalia became Kakaako, became a branch. And they organized a branch at the Kakaako--it was a home Sunday School again at Kakaako and soon Kakaako became a branch.

KB The Primary that you attended f i r s t , when was that held?

AL j Wel l , i t was held in the afternoon. I t was a f te r school hour.

KB So i t was somewhat comparable to the way i t was held un t i l f a i r l y

recent ly then.

AL Yes, i t was.

KB It was after school for an hour?

AL About an hour. We had some wonderful times.

KB The other meetings, of course, would a l l be on Sunday. Did they have any MIA at that time?

AL Oh, yes, they had the MIA. They had the MIA on a week n ight .

KB Tel l me about your involvement wi th t ha t .

AL With the MIA? Wel l , these Isaacs brother used to come by and used to i n v i t e me with them to go to the MIA. And here we had the young people organizaiton and most of them were older than I was, see. But the a c t i v i t y was lessons and, what they c a l l , programs, ac t i v i t i es—usua l l y each branch, when they came to the d i s t r i c t conference, they would compete against each other in publ ic speak­i n g , quartets, ; steel gu i t a r , and the male chorus, the women's chorus, and so there was qui te an a c t i v i t y . I t was an is land-wide program. So that when they had th is [ i n the ] missions, then the representatives from each is land would represent them in the f ina ls down at Laie.

I par t ic ipated- - three of us from Honolulu par t ic ipated in th is publ ic speech contest , and everyone who won out from the other is lands. Brother Wil l iam Isaacs, now who is the patr iarch [o f the Honolulu-Hawaii West Stake] , and then Brother [Solomon] Ka-ne and then myself. And the subject of the speech was: "Mormonism as a Practical Re l ig ion , " that was the subject and we used to p a r t i ­cipate in them. We used to have our tourneys from the other is lands, you know. And so they were the MIA of that year. And then came a f te r that came the set programs of the Church.

KB So you had tournaments w i th ' the other islands?

AL Yes, yes, when the mission came together, they would par t i c ipa te - in th is is land contests, and everybody enjoyed i t .

KB ,,T Tell me about these mission conferences that they used to have.

AL Wel l , i t was a great t h ing . When there was a mission conference, then everybody would go to Laie. The people from the islands would come by boats; they did not have any a i rp lane. They came by boat and then they catch the t r a i n , and they would r ide the t r a i n a l l the way down to Kahuku. They get out at Kahuku and then they had those cane t ra ins from Laie come in and they get up on th is t r a i n s , on th is loaders and they go over to Laie. And then some of them come down by, what you c a l l , stage--horse stages. Some of these stages carr ied ten or more people. But the Oahu people always wanted to r ide the t r a i n , so they would go down to the depot and they would get the t r a i n . They would go down and have a glorious t ime.

They they would have dedications on the other is lands. Then the people from Oahu here would go to the other is lands, and they 'd go by boats to attend these d i f f e ren t dedicat ions. And those were the days that they were in charge and then came the set organization of the stake and then we became a stake and we d i d n ' t . . .

[400] We used to have a, what you ca l l , mission but i t was smaller than a mission, i t was more of a d is t r ic t choir. The Honolulu choir used to be the outstanding choir in the community and they used to sing at many of these public functions. And later they became the Honolulu Stake Choir. And then again break down to ward choir and so on when no longer these mass choirs that they used to sing at the public functions.

KB Were t h e Mormon c h o i r s a s k e d t o s i n g f o r non-Mormon g a t h e r i n g s ?

AL Yes, well, that 's where they participated, you see. Like, they had this big Aloha Week and on Sunday evenings they would have this very religious program. And they would call on the--what you call--the Mormon choir to participate in that choir. Then we had one of the most outstanding Men's Glee-men, way back in '27. They were called the Liahona Glee-men and they competed with every other glee-men that was in the ci ty, and no one could compete with the LDS men's chorus.

KB Who was in that chorus, do you remember?

AL I remember i n my q u a r t e t was m y s e l f , A r t h u r Keawe, E r n e s t Rankin and Maniau Kamauoha, Jo seph Lima, David Kua, C l a r e n c e Lua and Alfred Apaka, Sr. And they were our outstanding tenors, this Ernest Rankin and Alfred Apaka. And those days we were known as the Liahona Glee Club, Men's Chorus.

KB When you joined the Church, you were eighteen years old; did you have many non-Mormon friends at that time?

AL Oh, n o t many.

KB <- By that time most of your friends were already LDS. What were • you doing when you eighteen, were you in school or . . .?

AL Oh, I was still in school.

KB You were going where?

AL At St. Louis. See, all of my education was In the Catholic school until I graduated.

KB Was there any difference, do you feel, in the treatment you received as a Mormon?

AL Well, when we attended the Catholic schools, the Catholic teachers were v e r y much aware of the LDS boys, see. And the Catholic boys would take Catechism and Bible History. But because we were non-Catholics, we took ethics, which is the rules of right and wrong, as our basic religion. But we had a brother there, that we really loved him. He was our teacher in ethics and he said to us, "Boys, you don't belong to my church." He says, "You just hold on to your church." He said, "You may have a higher place in high heaven.

But," he said, "if you question your church then by the grace of God I would that you study my church." And none of the LDS boys have joined there, joined the Catholics.

Then when I graduated from St. Louis, I went to get my transcript to go to University of Hawaii. And the vice-principal was my science teacher, and he knew me well, so I walked In and we talked while my transcript was coming in. Then he said, asked a question, "Do you believe in Joseph Smith?" See, well, I was not fully, what you ca l l , indoctrinated in the Joseph Smith story, which nearly caught me. But you know what saved my--was the telephone rang--just when he asked me the question the telephone rang, so he excused me and I never had the chance to te l l him the Joseph Smith story, [laughter]

KB Saved by the bel l .

AL Yes, saved by the b e l l .

KB How was the Church generally regarded, at that time?

AL Well, when we were in the intermediate grades, we were not accepted by the Catholic students. They used to kid us along; they called us Mormee. Oh, "How many wives your father have?" But they kid us along but we knew i t did not bother us too much. But then the, what you ca l l , the Catholic ones were studying us. And when I got the transcript, before he asked me the question, he said, "You know, we have been watching you boys all this time in this school." He said, "You were sincere. We know if you become a Catholic, you will become \fery good, devoted and sincere Catholic." See, they noticed us the way we behaved, the way we participated. And so they saw that LDS quality in Us and they admired the quality ifl

- us and said,,, "If'we were Catholics, we would be wery good Catholics."

KB "•* Unless you're not Mormon, you can make a good Catholic. But they really did not put any pressure on you at any time?

AL No, not any pressure. We had several brothers--the Catholics [500] brothers were very open-mirided even the English teacher that we

had, he was really--when we were in this school, didn't have too much problem. Now this Harim Kaakua, who was an outstanding foot­ball player during the high school years, he today works in the [LDS Hawaii] Temple. He was very, very well known during the high school years as a football player.

KB Was he there at St. Louis?

AL St. Louis. Everybody knows him w e l l .

KB Did you ever go out to any of the mission conferences at Laie before you joined the Church?

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No, no; only after I joined the Church.

After you joined the Church. You joined in 1918.

See, after I joined the Church then I began to participate In the MIA program, you know, and participated in the singing contest and the speech contest and all that.

But you had not gone to MIA before you joined the Church?

No.

Just Primary and Sunday School? All right, so you'd gone to Primary and Sunday School before you joined the Church and after you joined the Church, you got involved in MIA as well, and then in your speech activities and music activities. Were you out at Laie for the temple dedication? [November, 1919]

No, I was not at the temple dedication. I did not get to the temple for the dedication.

So you don't remember the chapel being up on the hill where the temple is, then, I guess?

No, not that I know, whether I could remember.

It was moved when they started building the temple.

So it was down when I saw the chapel, down below, not at the top.

When they used to go out to the conferences, did you usually travel out as a branch together, everybody together?

• Yes, everybody went together. And they were assigned to each home. » And those days the Laie people would furnish the pigs--the meat.

They would go to each home and find out how many families and how many people there and they would distribute them accordingly, [mean­ing housing for visitors] And when they came to food, they had a lot of food down there because Laie had their own cattle too, you see. So, when mission time came like that, they took care of those.

So when you used to go out there the school was still located behind the chapel?

Yes.

Did you ever ride the stage out there?

No, not to Laie. When I rode the stage, I went to Kaneohe. It took us--we left Kaneohe, coming up to the Pali--we left them at 5:30 and we got to Honolulu by 8:00. We used to go down to Kaneohe to Makapu across the Bay. We had some families down there so we went across to them. . .

KB And th is was horse-drawn, you say?

AL Yes, horse-drawn car r iage, stages. Then l a te r when they had these Fords and Stars, then the people would go down by cars. But the road was not as good as the roads today. They had a d i f f i c u l t time climbing the Pa l i . When they got up to the steep c l imb, then the passengers would get out and walk alongside the car, so that the car could go to the top.

KB How abou t t h e horses and t h e h o r s e - d r a w n s tages when you went t o Kaneohe?

AL Wel l , they were a l l r i g h t .

KB D id you have t o wa l k then?

AL No, no t he horses were ab l e t o draw t h e s tages up t h e h i l l .

KB So j u s t when people were t r a v e l l i n g by car they had to get out and walk. Wel l , a f te r you were involved in Sunday School as a Sunday School teacher-- th is would have been about 1920, was i t , 1919--how many chapels, how many d i f f e ren t branches were there over on th is side of the island? You were at Auwaiolimu, what else was there?

AL Wel l , there were only three at the t ime. Auwaiolimu was the only chapel that they had although they had a branch out at Waik ik i - -at Ainahau [about where the Princess Kaiulani Hotel is now located]-and then down at Laie. Those were the only three that I remember, because a l l the rest of the' branches were holding the i r meetings in schools, you see. Niuhelewai tha t ' s up at which is today Lanaki la, but they held t he i r Sunday School at Kaiulani School. They they,had Papakolea which is now the Auwaiolimu Ward. [The present Auwaiolimu Ward chapel is now located at 1931 Lusitana

"* St reet , several blocks from i t s o r ig ina l l oca t ion . The former Kakaako and Papakolea Wards are now contained w i th in the Auwaiolimu Ward.] They held t h e i r meeting in the school there. Then Kakaako used to hold the i r meetings in a home there, and then they got a chapel there. That was l a t e , a f te r the stake was organized. But in the beginning there was only two chapels that I knew that ex is ted.

KB The only chapels that you recal led then was the one you went to

in Auwaiolimu . . .?

AL That one in Auwaiolimu.

KB And one in Laie?

AL That one in Laie.

KB Where was the other one?

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AL The other one was out in Wa ik i k i , but I did not know. I had never been there. I 'd heard there was one at Ainahau [ i n W a i k i k i ] , a branch. . .

KB What were t h e sacrament meet ings l i k e ?

AL Oh, the sacrament meetings--you went there and you sat through the meeting and there was reverence because the ushers would have one of those long s t icks and, you know, those long t e s t i ­mony meetings. . . ? And they would come down the a is le and i f anybody was asleep j us t tap them and kept on.

Wel l , in the former days they did not have these, what you c a l l , cups. They used to dr ink from the big cup, you know. Af ter they passed the sacrament, then they passed these big cups and they

[600] took a s ip and on. Later they had cups and they had t rays , but the olden days they had not dr ink ing cups, something l i k e a cha l i ce , you know.

KB So eve ryone w o u l d d r i n k o u t o f t h e same c u p . Who were t h e ushers who had the respons ib i l i t y of tapping the sleeping people on the head?

AL Oh, they were the e lders , or today, we ca l l them prospective e lders , you see. We had one man by the name of He!el a. He was rea l l y one hundred percent on the job . And they were not t a l k ing or whispering in those days. You s i t s t i l l , even the chi ldren keep qu ie t , and they would sleep because those testimonies were long meetings, and they used to have meeting p rac t i ca l l y a l l day.

KB On days that they did not-have testimony meeting-- in other words, j u s t the regular sacrament meeting—what was that meeting l i ke? Was i t long, too?

AL - r Wel l , the other meetings were [ j u s t l i k e ] th is meeting. But the regular sacrament meeting was held a f te r Sunday School and the priesthood [meetings!]; they had the same schedule--the priesthood and the sacrament and testimony meetings.

KB Was the sacrament meeting qui te s imi la r to what i t is today?

AL Yes, j us t l i k e .

KB Except longer?

AL It's longer. There the people spoke two languages. After they got through speaking Hawaiian they just move over to the English and back to the Hawaiian. Very fluent speakers, those days.

KB The speaker would get up and deliver his sermon, or his message, in Hawaiian and then do it again in English?

AL Oh, yes; he would more or less move from English into the Hawaiian We had some very, very fluent speakers, but I just spoke

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Hawaiian r i g h t through.

KB So some might t a l k a l i t t l e b i t in Hawaiian, a l i t t l e b i t in English and then back to Hawaiian and then back to Engl ish, kind of back and fo r th but others would give the i r en t i re message in Hawaiian?

AL Give t he i r message in Hawaiian, yes. A l l the e lders- - the mission­ar ies—in those days, a l l spoke Hawaiian, you see; they a l l spoke Hawaiian, you see. So they understood the language. So you only had one language, that was the Hawaiian language.

KB Were there any other races in the Church, any Japanese or any haoles?

AL Oh, yes, we had a few Japanese converts and we had a few Chinese converts. Of course, the haoles which [would come] were usually those from Salt Lake--that come here [as tour i s ts or to work] . But the converts from the local haoles, the community, I don't th ink we had any at a l l . They had t he i r big churches to go t o - -the Central Union, Episcopalian, St . Andrews and . . .

KB But generally speaking, the Mormons were f a i r l y wel l treated?

AL . O h , yes.

KB What was your f i r s t job a f te r you l e f t — w e l l , l e t ' s see, a f te r

you l e f t St. Louis, you went on to the University?

AL Yes.

KB Was t h e r e any p r o b l e m up t h e r e as a Mormon? AL Oh, no. -Like every un ivers i ty you have your own classes to go t o .

I d i dn ' t have much problem there. I was f i n i sh ing my jun io r year at the un ivers i ty when my dean of education, Thayne Livesay, met me out on the campus. Those days, the student body wasn't so la rge ; everybody knew everybody e lse . So I happened to cross the campus, i t was in ear ly May, and he sa id , "A lbe r t , I want to see you in the o f f i c e . " And I sa id , "OK." So I walked in the o f f i c e . He sa id , "You know, we got word already—the department of education—to get you record to go out teaching. So, what's your decision?" He sa id , "You can make a choice: you can stay and f in ish" your senior year or you can go out there and we ' l l make arrangements for you to come back to f i n i sh your credi ts for your degree."

Wel l , I had a hard time a l l the time I was going to un ivers i ty cause I d i dn ' t have the money. So I sa id , I wanted to teach i f they paid me. I f they paid me w e l l , I 'd go out to teach. He sa id , "Don't you worry about the money; you make the decision [ i f ] you want to go ou t . " I decided I 'd bet ter go ou t , so I d id . I sa i d , "OK," and so I t ransferred a few credi ts from the

12

university. I went to normal high school to get educational training and then--the June month was over, my application went in; July came in, no word from the—we called it DPI at the time.

Then I got a call from the Church, from the mission president, "I want you to go on a short term mission to Hawaii. You leave on August the first." And yes, on August the first I received my assignment to go to teach but I went on a mission and I came back and I came back on August the 31st, and went to teach, and I taught. And so I came back and they made all the arrangements for me to get my credits for my bachelors. I went out teaching '27. I was to have graduated in '28 but '31 I received my bachelors. And then I went back again and worked for my secondary professional. So I received my bachelors, making better than h.1

thirty credits in education. So, that's that and from then on I , stayed.

Then when World War II came, I was teaching in elementary at the time. When World War II came I had just come back from taking the children. . . . You see, where I was assigned was a special school of the active leprosy children, you see, and no one wanted to go down there. And that school was just made a public school. And this person who knew me, he was a member of the senate,

[700] Lawrence B. Judd, who later became governor of the state, he made arrangements so I went down there. On December 7, 1941, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor we had a front seat. I was home; it was a Sunday. I got a call to come down and we were just right across where we could see Pearl Harbor from where we were. And, luckily, our school had a big cross so the Japanese probably pass­ed us over./ And so in May* the next—May that year, we had to transfer the children over- to Kalaupapa.

And when they got back, I went to the classroom—no, I was assigned to go to another special school which was a Salvation Army—a boys'

..T school. And there was a call that came from Central Intermediate, needing a substitute. So I moved in that morning and right on the blackboard there was a formula of the mercury oxide and it was just right down my alley, 'cause I took chemistry. And I did such a good job that day that the next day the teacher who I substituted—he was [George Fukuoka] came back; the boys' counselor was called to in to service. So he went out, the other teacher from the other class came into his office, and I took his class and I stayed there twenty-three years. I retired n'n 1965 because of age. So the Lord had been good to me through all these expe­riences .

KB So it doesn't appear from your experiences that there was ever any problems of your being a Mormon. You never experienced any pre­judices of any kind?

AL No, no, when I came to Central Intermediate, you see, there were several different faculty. Well, after a while they got to know me well. And so every time we had a social, we always had to have

A 13

B

a prayer and I was the chaplain of the school. Everywhere we went to outside social dinner—we were teachers as a group--! was the chaplain and so they knew me from then on, you see. We'd go to different social a c t i v i t i e s at the night club and l ike t h a t , and many teachers wanted to take me along. They sa id , "You're the only sober guy we have." So we'd get into the bar and the f i r s t thing they'd t e l l the bartender, "Ginger ale for him, nothing e l se . " And so t h a t ' s how they treated because I was an LDS. [ laughter] So they respected me because of my membership in the Church. So a l l my promises—they all the same. S is te r Like says, "You see , t h a t ' s the best teaching we ever had." And they [the s tudents] know when I'm angry. Cause those days, you spank them, and I did spank them.

KB The conferences that they had, were they always out a t Laie?

AL No, they had the d i s t r i c t conference up here. [Kalihi] Then the children would come up and par t ic ipa te in the program. And those days, the children of Primary of Sunday School children would have to know the Ten Commandments, the Articles of Faith, the Beatitudes and some of them, the Eighty-Ninth Section [of the Doctrin and Covenants.] And they would get up and rec i t e these without books or anything. And t h a t ' s how we remembered the Articles of Faith and the Ten Commandments.

KB Do you remember some of the Hawaiian missionaries , I mean the

local Hawaiian missionaries when you f i r s t came in to the Church?

AL W e l l , we had s e v e r a l o f t h o s e ; we had Samuel Kaeo , and . . .

KB Was Abraham F e r n a n d e z o n e ? AL - Abraham F e r n a n d e z w a s ; Abraham F e r n a n d e z w a s . P e t e r K e a l a k a i h o n u a

was; [also Steven Ki la ] , Jonah--! forgot his name—lona, they -T called him lona—he was a very outstanding missionary. And Ben

Lauahi.

KB Do you remember hearing anything about Liliuokalani having been baptized? Do you remember hearing tha t a t that time?

AL No, no I was t o o y o u n g . I d i d n o t go t o Church a t t h a t t i m e . That was 1907, you see. That 's the one I l ike to make a study because Brother Elwin Jensen wrote to me. . .

[770] END OF SIDE A

SIDE B [000] AL And that's the only way she was to get back [her kingdom] was to

get the sympathy of these different organizations, and so this baptism could have been one of the means of her getting the people's sympathy on her side. But it could not be in 1907. Already the government had been established; the Territory had been established

14

you see, cause we were annexed to the U.S. in 1898 and werwere admitted as a territory in 1900. That was seven years back so there was little chance of that being a very good reason, because she knew right at that time there wasmo possibility of [having the kingdom restored.] And then again, they said that on the day she was baptized, she was not in the island, she was somewhere else. That was what I want to do some research, to find out if she did, where did she go on that date.

KB But you came in to the Church in 1918, and you don't remember hearing anything about her being a memeber of the Church at that time?

AL No.

KB She passed away before. . .

AL In '17, yes. She used to drive along Kali hi Street. She'd come up by School Street and I used to see her eyery time when she passed by. She used to nod at us. But this baptism is one big question which the Church will want to verify. But that':s what I want to see about this date in July 7, if there's any way we can establish the fact that she had left the island on that day.

KB Well, her journal of 1906 tells about her going to Hilo. This would have been about May and then there's no more entries in the journal until about September.

AL 1907?

KB ' No, 1905. ' July 7, 1906.

AL ~ Oh, I see...

KB "T But I don' t know whether she was on the Big Island a l l during that time between May and September or no t ; I don' t know; i t did not appear in her j ou rna l .

AL When was she baptized?

KB July 7, 1906 is the date that Fernandez gives.

AL 1906.

KB From your own knowledge, do you know anything at all about her association with Relief Society; do you know anything at all?

AL No, I don't know too much. But the queen used to go and live with my grandma when she went to Hilo. Every time she went to Hilo, she would stay at the home of my grandma, not my grandma, my grand aunt.

KB But, you don't personally know of any association?

B 15

AL No, no personal knowing of he> association.

KB You remember when you first heard about her having been baptized?

AL Well, through the records, because I cleared all these in master records. See, after I became a genealogist, mission genealogist, . I was sent by President Castle Murphy to go to all the islands and check the master cards with the books of the Church. And so that's why you see the cross. But then what happened, these two sisters went back and got the same books and brought them back and so this was sent off to the cards from the membership book.

KB So you had not heard anything about her baptism until you became a genealogist in the 1930's?

AL No, and then when Brother Elwin Jensen was here, he found the book [100] in which this record was entered.

KB Right. Let's talk about your being called as a genealogist. Well, let's go back to you Sunday School responsibilities when you first joined the Church. What about during the 1920's; what Church assignments did you have during that time?

AL Well, that was the only assignment I had, was a Sunday School teacher.

KB Did you serve as a Sunday School teacher for most of that period then, the 1920's?

AL 1920's. Then in 1930 the branch had changed the presidency and President Arthur Parker became president and so he asked me to be a member of his presidency. And I was ordained a--priest back

• in 1921, and like everything else, people forgot. And so in 1930 --* when he said to me, he wants me to be his counselor, I said, "I

couldn't be your counselor because I'm not an elder." I was just a priest. He said, "What! You're just a priest?" I said, "Yes, I'm just a priest." So he said he would go over and check about this. So he went to see the authorities. President William W. Waddoups was the mission president at that time. When he found that out, he said, "Why was he not advanced?" So they ordained me an elder right at that time. After being nine years as a prospective elder and being as active as I was, so they forgot. So in 1930, I was ordained an elder and then became a member of the branch presidency.

Then I was called to be member of the Sunday School superintendency and with the MIA and I began to have many of these branch offices. When I got into the stake after that I stayed in the stake all through these many years. I didn't go back to the ward again. When I was released as a bishop from Kakaako, then I was called to be a ward clerk; I came back as a ward clerk. Then the stake called me back to be the stake clerk. So I went back to be the

16

stake clerk and I wasn't there long enough when another person came in as the stake clerk and I went as a member of the high council.

KB Tell me about your first genealogy assignment.

AL Well, my first genealogy assignment, it's go down there and go over the 1930 census and to sort them out and put them in the proper order according to the branches, you see. 'Cause this was openly taken, you see. They had the elders to go and take these census.

KB So this wasn't the government census?

AL No, this was the church census on family group sheets. That's when the family group sheets first came out.

KB So you were assigned by President Murphy to be the district genealogist?

AL No, to be the mission genealogist.

KB Be the mission genealogist. So you traveled throughout the misssion?

AL Yes, with President Murphy. I travelled down to Kalaupapa, we stayed over there. Then I was assigned to go to the different islands to be with the missionaries there, to go over their membership cards because each district had its own membership cards. And we would get these record books and we'd go over those as we went along. If there was no card in the file, we would make a card for it and then we brought the books all back to Honolulu.

KB So really'at that time you were serving more as a clerk than as a ...T genealogist?

AL Yes, clerk and genealogist in serving. And because of that I became familiar with the organization. When the genealogy orga­nization was established,-all these instructions came out to organize the temple assignments, then I began to take over them.

[200] But then all the sheets that were going to the temple from the mission had to be approved by me.

And I had one of these experiences when I went to Waiohinu, Ka'u [near southern tip of the Big Island]. My companion and I, we tract all day and it was just late afternoon that we were coming home, yery tired. And on our way back to the home that we were staying for the day, we met some youngsters who were playing on the roadside. And one of them said to me, "Did you go down to post office?" I said, "No." "On, there's some people down there that are members of the Church." So my companion and I we back tracked to the post office. And their windows were still open and so we knocked. This fellow came on. He was a big, strapping fellow.

17

We said, "We understand you folks are members of the Mormon Church." He said, "Oh, no." Oh, so we went back and met these same youngsters again. We said, "We were down there but nobody there that wanted us." "Oh, no, not the man, the lady." Oh, the lady. So we back track again. We went into and up the stairs and just as we were going up the steps, I saw a shadow pass. So we went knocking, out came the same big strapping fellow. And we told him that we're missionaries. We understand that their family—that the wife—was a member of the Church. "Oh, yes, but she is not feeling well." So we walked out and when we walked out, I was kind of a little disappointed because we were quite sure that the shadow that passed was his wife. So we passed on.

And the day we left for our mission and we were set apart. President Murphy in his prayer of being set apart, he said, "If you are to visit any family and by chance you are not received into that family, do not shake your dust at the doorstep." I remembered that. So we came out and walked up and then we had another youngster come up and this youngster put an envelope in my hand. So I said, "Well, I wonder if she relented then and had some message." So we walked home and we opened that envelope and, lo and behold, it was two silver dollars. And these two silver dollars was from the mother that we had visited that afternoon who had fourteen children. And she said, "Here's two dollars to help you on your mission and service. Please take it." And then my companion and I in our prayers thanked the mother for this contribution.

You know, we came home [and] no more than six months after that, I received a temple sheet coming down. And on that temple sheet was—she'd, sent by this person—the mother-in-law and she was a temple woman and genealogist-^in and behold, you know whose name

jeared on that was the u m person who refused us into his house,

KB This big strapping Hawaiian fellow you were talking about?

AL He was a part haole.

KB The fellow that was there at the post office?

AL It was him. He died of a heart attack after we left.

KB Oh, I see. . .

AL And then that sheet came in.

KB Came in by his wife?

AL By his mother-in-law. . . . So I thought to myself, who am I to judge this; let the Lord judge it; so I sent it in.

18

KB Ohh. When you were on th i s mission, that you are ta l k ing about, was th is kind of a genealogy mission at th is time or was i t j u s t a regular proselyt ing mission?

AL Wel l , i t was j u s t proselyt ing mission, i t was a proselyt ing mission that I was on. See, we were going through the is land of Hawaii, my companion and I and a l l through th is mission, we d i d n ' t have a car. But we always had a [prayer ] in the morning. When we got up in the morning we said our morning prayer, my companion said to me, "How are we going to the next place?" I sa i d , "Wel l , the Lord w i l l provide. We' l l j u s t walk." So we get up and we j u s t get ready down there. This o f f i c e r says, "Where you fo lks going?" "Wel l , we're going down to the next area and then we got to go across." He s a i d , "How you fo lks going to get down there?" "We gonna walk." "Oh, you don' t walk," he sa id , "we ' l l take you." So he'd take us down and we'd proselyte that s ide.

Then he sa id , "Wel l , I can ' t go across because my boundary is j us t here. But I ' l l t e l l you what I ' l l do. I ' l l ca l l my brother o f f i ce r from the other side to come up here and pick you fo lks up." So he ca l l s up his other brother o f f i c e r to pick us up.

We don' t get a nap; we walk a l l the way for another f o r t y miles to that other. . . Then on our way up I sa id , "Gee, I wish I could

[300] go and v i s i t t h i s p a r t i c u l a r - - " And while we were on our r ide there, th is one person there who was member of the Church s a i d , " I want you to v i s i t my family way up th is other place, way out of the way in the s t i c k s . " Off we went. That was one of the places I wanted to v i s i t and so a l l throughout the mission, for good three months we never walked.

KB So these were pol ice o f f i ce rs tha t . . .

AL . Yes, t ha t ' s the two pol ice o f f i c e r s . . .

KB In that one case?

AL Yes, then when we got to Pahala, th is place here, th is lady t o l d us, "Why don' t we stay overnight , " because the next day the bread wagon w i l l come and take us home. I sa id , "No, we're on the way home. We have to get back because we're o f f schedule." And then the pol ice o f f i c e r sa id , "Wel l , l e t me take you down to the town; there might be some trucks coming up." And, lo and behold, t h i s truck came up here from H i l o . And he said to us, "Well?" The pol ice o f f i c e r said to the d r i ve r , "You going back?" He sa id , "Yes." " I have two fr iends that want to go back, too . " He s a i d , "Oh, yes," So he put us on the f ron t seat and we got down and pick up some logs. And the F i l i p i no who owned the logs gets on the t ruck. He wants to come in the f ron t seat but the dr iver sa id , "No." He sa id , "You set behind i f you want to go down to H i l o ; when you get out you can get a t a x i . " So he never complained u n t i l we got to H i lo . [chuckles]

B 19

KB So on your mission did you labor on the Big Island entirely?

AL We labored on the Big Island entirely.

KB And that was a three-month mission?

AL Yes, it was three months. That was my summer vacation. Soon as I got out of school I went on this mission. So we had a wery wonderful [time]. And as I say, we never walked.

KB Now you say summer vacation; this was while you're still going to the university?

AL No, this's when I was teaching. It was in '35.

KB When the stake was organized, had you been serving as the Mission Genealogist prior to that time?

AL Yes, I was the Mission Genealogist.

KB Had you been on the District High Council?

AL No, no; I was not on the District High Council.

KB Tell me about the organization of the stake, as you remember it.

AL Well, at the time when we organized the stake, of course, they had already chosen the stake president, which was Ralph E. Wool ley. Then Ralph E. Woolley chose his counselors and then all the bishops were chosen and their counselors. Then all the heads of the stake auxiliaries were called. And then, on that particular, afternoon—they did it two days—it was on the 4 of July. [July 4 and 5] Then President Heber J. Grant and President J. Reuben Clark took everyone by turn. So we had this one and

-r then the next one. So when it came to my turn, it was President J. Reuben Clark. That was how the organization was started and all these branch presidents were now ordained bishops, and they all went back to their different wards. Then they organized their wards according to the stake pattern.

KB So the organization had already been pretty well been set up, just changed from district to stake.

AL Yes; because they were already functioning under the district, I mean under the mission. President Castle H. Murphy had foreseen the change that was going to come as a stake, so he organized the mission under that. Of course, he was the mission [president], but this was just the District of Oahu. And this was how they did: The president Castle H. Murphy, ordained Edward L. Clissold. Edward L. Clissold ordained, you see, the next person. The next person, the next person, the next person and so when they came down to the twelve high council. He was about the fifteenth person that was ordained, not including the one prior to Castle H. Murphy.

20

And so when I was ordained to the office of high priest , i t was s t i l l under the d i s t r i c t . I was ordained by Clinton Kanahele. He was the last one on that high council, so I was ordained by him. So if I want to trace my authority, I have to trace from me to Kanahele to Plunkett to so and so, and so and so, and so and so, suntil I get up to Castle H. Murphy. Oh, yes, I have one, my ordination cert i f icate , I ' l l give you one of those [lines of authority.] But then when [George] Albert Smith came down and ordained me—this time i t was the stake—and ordained me a member of the high councilman, ordained me a high priest .

[400] Then my chain of authority began to get small from me to George Albert Smith, George Albert Smith to his father. From them I got to the Three Witnesses sooner than that..- On the other way i t was a lo-oo-ong. . .

KB What was i t that Clinton Kanahele ordained you to?

AL Off ice o f High Pr ies t .

KB And then you were ordained another time?

AL Yes, that 's by President George Albert Smith when he came down

and ordained me to be a high council, you see.

KB What were you when C l i n t o n o r d a i n e d you?

AL Oh, high priest already.

KB So you were ordained twice? AL Yes, I was ordained twice. Of course, the one that Clinton

Kanahele would be not the valid one, you see. Not knowing, I suppose/not knowing that I "was a high priest already when he laid his hand on my head. Usually, when they ordain you 1n, I mean set you apart as high council} thsy usually ordain you

"T a high priest .

KB But you had already been ordained a high priest by Clinton? And were you a member of the dis t r ic t high council?

AL No, no, I was not a member of the dis t r ic t high council.

KB But you were ordained a high priest to function in the genealogy responsibility, i t that i t? Ok, so you were ordained a high priest before the stake was orgainized and then after the stake was organized about 1936? Well, the stake was organized in 1935

AL Yes.

KB Was it about 1936 that you were. . ,

AL '36, ordained by President George Albert Smith.

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22

bishop and I was single at that time. So President Woolley said, "I want you to go get all your records from Kali hi transferred to Kakaako. You're no longer a member of the Kali hi Ward; you're a member of the Kakaako Ward." And so I became a member of the Kakaako Ward for four and a half years.

KB So you were the bishop during that time?

AL Yes, I was the bishop.

KB You had been serving on the high council?

AL Yes, I was on the high councili and I was sent down to be pre­siding elder for the Kakaako Ward while I was still a member of the high council.

KB Was it a ward at that time or was it a branch?

AL It was a ward all that time. They were having internal problems with the . . . so . . .

KB So they had a bishop but still a high councilman went down there [500] as a presiding elder?

AL No, they released the bishop and then they had the presiding elder. So, in those days they did not have the ward advisor. So I went down as the presiding elder, and became bishop. And all the years I was down there as a bishop I did not have a ward advisor.

KB When was that? "]'

AL _ 1945 to 1949. . "

KB " What kind of probl§m§ were th§§§?

AL Well, it was more or less of a clique. This group here did not like this [other] group here and when the bishop appointed--took care of this group here, this [other] group became inactive. And then Kakaako was one of the hardest wards because the people they're all — that was the roughest district in the Chruch, this industrial area, the membership were inactive. They used to drink and have parties and what-not.

There was never a Sunday when I was not invited to go out and take care of a blessing of a table that was a big [indecipherable] and I could not leave them alone because they were my people, see.

KB Excuse me. You were invited to go out and do what?

AL I was invited to go to these parties, these luau, to give grace, you see.

23

KB Oh. . .

AL So I would go then. I could not leave them alone because those are my people. I want to get them back. So I would go:there and then the people would come along and say, "Well," some of them did not know my title, say, "Well, Reverend, will you have a glass of beer?" I said, "Gee, I'm sorry. The strongest I can drink is rootbeer." They said, "Oh, rootbeer, you shall have.1

And then I was really going to--and so people began to know me and I visit every family !in: that Kakaako Ward.

And one week, the first one, they were little shy. They would hide their liquor; they would hide their tobacco; but after they got accustomed to me then they talked to me freely. Then I told them that, you see, "If everybody was perfect here, I close that door, I go home." But I said, "When you folk are ready, why,you come." Before long they would come in and sit in the back, and before long I could begin to activate a little harder the inactive ones and they began to--and today, many of those little youngsters grew up while I was bishop there--today they are members of the high council, they were bishops. And today we have a present stake president in Kauai, he was a member of the ward, he went when he was a little youngster.

KB Things have changed alot. . .

AL Yes, change a lot of those inactives. I came back and their boys and girls have served foreign missions. But today you could not do that, you get thrown out of the Church, [laughter] And, part was that they hXd a brewery which was not ve ry far from their place. Those days they did not have beer in cans or beers in bottle; they had beers in barrel. You bring the barrel in and fill up those water pitcher and they go around and fill your glasses up. And they would ccrrc to me and say, "Well, Reverend,

/ how about a glass of beer?" I said, "Sorry, nothing stonger than rootbeer." They go get a rootbeer for me.

KB But you still lived in Kali hi?

AL Yes, I still lived in Kali hi, but, you see, I was teaching down the Central intermediate; that was down right in the heart of town. You know where St. Andrews Priory is or St. Andrews Cathedral?

KB Yes.

AL My school was r i gh t there. So when I got through school, I went down there and then l e f t there l a t e r . Wel l , on Sunday n ight th i s group would say, "Bishop, how you going home?" I sa i d , "Oh, I 've got to catch the bus." "Oh, w e ' l l take you home." So they 'd take me. Wel l , t h i s other c l ique wasn't going to be outdone, so they next time t h i s c l ique would say, "Wel l , how you going home?" " I 'm going home by bus." "Oh, w e ' l l take you home." So before

24

long I got a l l these chief people taking me home on Sunday n igh t .

And one of them sa id , "How about you come up to our place th is evening? We' l l have a l i t t l e social and a l i t t l e snack." I sa id , "F ine." So we'd go up there. These people i nv i t e these other people. So th is other c l ique tha t ' s the one we had [d inner ] with—before long why we had a l l these f igures and then when I l e f t th is was one big fami ly . And nobody had anything to do—if I ca l led them, wanted them to be on a ward pos i t i on , these people did not have anything to complain about. And tha t ' s how I stayed four and [one-hal f years ] . When I came back here these people j u s t shed tears ; they d idn ' t want me t o . . .

Then one good Sunday night who comes along? Elder [Matthew] Cowley; he j us t got o f f the plane. He came walking in to the old dinky chapel. I sa id , "Elder Cowley, what you doing here?" "Oh,1

he sa id , " I come to v i s i t you." " V i s i t me?" I sa id , "There's a bet ter chapel at Waikiki and the members of the ward were very anxious to hear you. " He sa id , "Oh, no, I heard about the l i t t l e chapel down in the s t icks where the dogs bark, where the people scream, where they have f ie rce f igh ts and arguments a l o t . So I l i ke to come down and see the l i t t l e church in the s t i c k s . " So we went on. And, lo and behold, next to the old chapel is a renovated home. And, lo and behold, th is Portuguese fami ly , oh, they j u s t ho l le r t he i r heads o f f . And then, on the other side there's a k id there who was pract ic ing his trumpet. You know, he's a Japanese boy and you know how Japanese, they want to be sure to get that note. So, he j u s t keep on. And then a f te r that he sa id , "How do you manage i t ? " "Wel l , because we get so used to- -our ears are t ra ined to l i s t e n to the Gospel of Jesus Chr is t , we don' t hear i t . " [ laughter ] So we had a wonder­fu l evening. Then he went out wi th me to do some admin is t ra t ion.

KB So you d i d have an ac tua l c h a p e l , t h e n , t o meet in?

AL Yes, w e l l , i t was a renovated f a m i l y home and t h a t chapel had two, what you c a l l , cu lve r ts . And when i t rains--you see our

[600] benches—when i t ra in you could see the water j us t go on and you put your feet up and the waters j u s t going on. [ laughter ]

Then a f te r that we had two wards. That was when we ca l l i t a two-ward chapel. Papakolea [Ward], they did not have any place to meet because they were meeting in the school, and the school chased them o f f because the kids were j u s t damaging some of the classroom..:. So they had no place; they had to come down. So the two bishops, he and I , we arranged so that they came at a cer ta in hour and we came on a cer ta in hour and i t worked f i n e . And then they bought th is place at Auwaiolimu—which is where the Auwaiolimu chapel--and tha t ' s where. . . But I stayed down here.

KB So did the Kakaako Ward continue in that same bui ld ing and j u s t Papakolea move out?

25

AL No, no, no. Both wards built this chapel and that's where the Auwaiolimu is now. And then we . . .

KB Is that when you were released?

AL Yes, I was released but after that. . .

KB You said you were not married but this time. When did you get married?

AL '70.

KB '70?

AL [Laughing] Yes.

KB Oh , f o r goodness s a k e s .

AL And you know what I did when I got down there. I picked two men who were e lder ly people and they were no-party men of these c l iques. So we three got along, and a l l three got along wi th i t these e lder ly people, th is e lder ly gentlemen, so we got along f i n e . Then a f te r that why, we had a younger ward c le rk . Those're some of the experiences tha t I had.

KB These two men, were t h e y y o u r two c o u n s e l o r s ?

AL They were my two counselors, and I have a p ic ture of that bishopric

KB And they were l i k e you, too , a couple o f old bachelors?

AL Yes. [ laughter ]

KB That's kind o f strange, i s n ' t i t — t o have a b ishopr ic . . .

AL Wel l , yes, yes, t ha t ' s i t ; I cou ldn ' t understand why I was picked to be bishop down there when they could pick up someone who could be—wel l , maybe they f e l t , w e l l , he might do a bet ter job down there. He won't have a wi fe to in te r fe re wi th [ laughs] . . .

KB Did you have to do any marriage counsell ing whi le you . . .

AL Oh, yes, I performed couple of marriages there; I had the marriage l i cense - - ! mean marriage commission. And I did some counsel l ing. And now and then I meet one o f the f i r s t couples that I married and they w i l l laugh and say, "You know how nervous you were the f i r s t time when you married us?" We used to marry them at the Tabernacle, you know, out in the garden there. That's where we perform a l l of our marriages there.

KB What do you remember about the construct ion of the tabernacle i n 1941?

B 26

AL Oh, yes, well, it was our labor missionaries that assisted in the building on that. Brother Ralph E. Woolley, he was the con­tractor and the architect, I think it was. I don't know whether he was with someone. But then all the members went there; they put in their hours; they were accredited according to the amount of man-hours. Records were kept of these people's hours in there.

KB So, it was not really the labor mission. It was ward members volunteering. . . .

AL Yes, ward members participating, yes.

KB Did he have a regular hired crew or . . . ?

AL I think maybe because he was a contractor himself, you see, maybe he had these engineers. But for the manual labor and all that, the members of the different wards,[worked]. I like those days; everything was enthusiasams. So nearly everyone would participate.

KB Were you on the High Council at that time?

AL Yes, I was on the High Council.

KB Was everybody pretty good about going down to [work on the build­ing?]

AL Yes, we did not have any problem. Same as building this chapel here. [Kalihi Chapell] Everybody came; they would work until late at night. People used to pass by and see these LDS people working in the night, and the sisters used to bring the supper along, you know. Or they would cook enough for the workers in the night.

KB Tell me about when they moved the headquarters of the mission here, to Kalihi, from Laie. Do you remember anything about that?

" f t

AL No, that I don't know. But when I came. President E. Wesley Smith was the one that moved here. And so he said quite—at first it was this home that they had here . . .

KB Here on this property?

AL Yes, on this property, you see. This belonged to the Mutch family, M-u-t-c-h, Mutch family. So they [the Chruch] bought this. It was a big home and rooms for the missionaries and then they had this back place. This is where Adney Kamatsu got converted. He used to come up here and play basketball in the old gym here and began to be fellowshipped by the other Japanese boys and members then.

KB When did they build that gym?

27

AL This gym that we are talking about? Oh, I don't know. I think it became part of the building on the ground, but they converted it into a big open space.

KB Maybe what we might do; I'd like to go outside and have you kind of point out just where the buildings were, do you remember, at that time. But perhaps before we do that is there anything else that you can think of it might be well to include about your membership of the Church here?

AL Not,--[chuckle] unless there's a question there.

KB Well, you've seen a great deal of growth.

AL Yes, I have. Now, one thing with growth is, I lived here where I am, you know; well, the mission home was here [i.e., Kalihi]. We lived here and then when the mission was changed into a stake [30 June 19 35] the stake was here. This was the center so I stayed here. Then, the stake had a few wards which was Kalihi Ward, Lanakila Ward, the Kakaako, the Waikiki, and Laie. Those were the wards at the time of the division of the . . . . And then they had the branches. They had Kahana Branch; they did not have Hau'ula; it was only later than this. And so, as time went along they began to divide the Honolulu and Oahu Stake. So

[700] the Honolulu became the other side [28 August 1955]. Then the Oahu was on this side, which took care of all the, what you call--went as far as Laie.

KB So when they created the Honolulu Stake in 1955, Kalihi still continued as headquarters,... . ?

AL Headquarters for the Oahu Stake.

KB ~ Was the Oa-hu Stake, how should I say that—was Kalihi still part, physically part of the Oahu Stake?

AL Yes, physically part of the Oahu Stake, you see. On Fort Street that side went to Oahu, I mean to the Honolulu Stake which took care of Auwaiolimu, Kakaako, Waikiki, and Kaimuki. Those were the wards that were on the other side. There were not split up to [as] many wards as they are. Then they left the Oahu Stake with Laie.

Then came the division again—Laie and Oahu. When they divided Laie and Oahu, then we became a part of still—Waianae, which was in Nanakuli at the time—they didn't have Waianae [Ward] or Nanakuli, Pearl City and—our part, Kalihi and Lanakila.

KB That's when the Pearl Harbor Stake [was formed, 4 February 1962].

AL Then they named it Pearl Harbor Stake. Then came again another division and in this division we divided Waipahu and Oahu, but instead of Oahu, became Pearl Harbor. Then when Laie became a

28

stake, then we have th is wards which was K a l i h i , Halawa, Lanaki la, and then—yes, j u s t f i ve wards—Halawa, Aiea. And then we divided again Lanakila in to Nuuanu. Ok, so now we have Waipahu [20 February 1972] and so as th i s d iv is ion was being taken care o f , we're s t i l l i n the central place and we never moved out o f i t . The name changed but we're s t i l l there.

Then came the d iv i s ion of the wards, and you know what they did? They run L i k i l i k e Highway a l l the way up, down to School Street and a l l the wards—the people that l i ved above School Street and along the east side of L ike! ike Highway—went to Lanakila and so we stayed put i n K a l i h i . So we've been in Kal ihi since the organization of the mission home.

KB So you've always been in the Kal ih i Ward. . . ?

AL Yes, we've been always in the Kal ih i Ward.

KB Which had been in four or f i ve d i f f e ren t stakes. How many d i f f e ren t stakes?

AL We have been in four d i f f e ren t stakes. Oahu, then they took o f f Honolulu, so Oahu, then Pearl Harbor, now Honolulu-Hawaii West.

KB Let 's go outside and have you point out a l i t t l e b i t to me out there.

[Baldridge and Like move from the genealogical l i b r a r y to the gymnasium]

We are i n . the gymnasium now. What is i t ?

AL ^ No, here in the back here. Let 's go back . . .

KB The gymnasium was about here where the l a n a i i s? " t

AL Yes, this is it and then right beyond this used to be the old social hall.

KB Was the social hall outside the building now?

AL Yes, that was it and this used to be the home where the elders used to stay.

KB The home used to be on'this where we are standing right now?

AL But they used to be two stories: upstairs where the missionaries used to stay and below was somewhat just like a garage. Then beyond this was the social hall. Now the first chapel was that the building was facing the other way. The pulpit and the choir was here. This is where the choir was.

KB Here on the makai end of the gymnasium?

29

AL This —the church pulpit was on this side and the entrance was on the other side coming upstairs there. And this used to be a classroom, used to be upstairs and downstairs, the chapel was up and the, what you call, classroom was downstairs. Then they took it up.

KB So the chapel faced the ocean, then, did it?

AL No, the chapel faced mauka.

KB The chapel faced.imauka, ok.

AL Yes, now the chapel faces the ocean. That chapel faced mauka.

KB But the original chapel faced mauka.

AL It was, what you call, it was a two-stories. Down below was the classroom and upstairs was the chapel proper.

772 END OF INTERVIEW