Book - How to Think Like a Great Graphic Designer

HOW

TO THINK

LIK E A GREAT

GR A PH IC

DE S IG NER

“The title of How to Think Like a Great Graphic Designer is all wrong. It’s not really about graphic design, and it’s not really a how-to book. It’s a delight-ful opportunity to eavesdrop on some of the most curious and creative minds of our time.” —malcolm gladwell ,

author, The Tipping Point and Blink

“Millman has gathered astonishingly frank revela-tions from acclaimed designers, and the resulting book is provocative, enlightening, and surprising. Anyone who struggles daily to create great work will be inspired and encouraged by these intimate glimpses into remarkable minds.”

—joyce rutter kaye , editor-in-chief, Print magazine

“In this collection of lively interviews, Debbie Millman does more than provide a kaleidoscopic portrait of contemporary graphic design through the lives and thoughts of its leading practitioners. She captures the passion for excellence that all great work—whatever the field—depends on.”

—virginia postrel , author, The Substance of Style and The Future and Its Enemies

“Debbie Millman and her interviewees conspire brilliantly to map the best thought and practice in the world of design. Listen in as they contemplate the future of design and its imminent colonization of innovation, product development, and someday, perhaps, all of marketing itself.”

—grant mc cracken , Research Affiliate, Convergence Culture Consortium (C3), MIT

MIL

LM

AN

cov er design: rodr ig o cor r a l

a llworth pr essw w w. a llwort h .com

copu blish ed w i t h t h e scho ol of v isua l a rts

$24 .95

g r a p h i c d e s i g n

Praise for

HOW TO THINK LIK E A GR E AT GR A PHIC DESIGNER

In a series of illuminating and entertaining con-versations, twenty-one of today’s most influen-tial and revered designers discuss, celebrate, and analyze their craft. Adeptly interviewed by brand consultant and talk show host Debbie Millman, these designers reveal their early influences, day-to-day rituals, enthusiasms, aspirations, and fail-ures. For pop-culture enthusiasts as well as long-time designers, students, and those just starting their careers, this book will prove an invaluable guide to the history, controversies, milestones, and everyday foibles of working, living, and thinking as a graphic designer. How to Think Like a Great Graphic Designer includes interviews with:

milton glaserpaula scher

peter savillechip kidd

stefan sagmeistermichael bierutcarin goldbergneville brody

emily oberman & bonnie sieglerjames victore

john maedapaul sahre

jessica helfandseymour chwastlucille tenazasvaughan oliver

steff geissbuhlerstephen doyleabbott miller

massimo vignelli

HO

W T

O T

HIN

K L

IKE

A

GR

EA

T G

RA

PH

IC D

ES

IGN

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DEBBIE MILLMANw ith a for ewor d by stev en h eller

millman_mech070817.indd 1 8/20/07 10:26:12 AM

H ow

t o t H i n k

L i k e a G r e at

G r a p H i c

De s i G ne r

Debbie MiLLManwitH a foreworD by steven HeLLer

millman_galley_FINAL_070820.indd1 1 8/20/07 12:32:09 PM

© 2 0 07 debbie millman

all rights reserved. copyright under berne copyright con-

vention, universal copyright convention, and pan-american

copyright convention. no part of this book may be reproduced,

stored in a retrieval system, or tr ansmitted in any form, or by

any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording,

or otherwise, without prior permission of the publisher.

11 10 09 08 07 5 4 3 2 1

published by allworth press

an imprint of allworth communications, inc.

10 east 23rd street, new york, new york 10 010

cover design by rodrigo corr al

interior design by rodrigo corr al design

edited by jeremy lehrer

author photogr aph by maryannerussell.com

libr ary of congress cataloging-in-publication data

millman, debbie.

how to think like a great gr aphic designer / debbie millman.

p. cm.

includes index.

isbn-13: 978-1-58115- 496 -2 (pbk.)

isbn-10 : 1-58115- 496 -8 (pbk.)

1 . gr aphic arts. 2 . gr aphic artists—interviews. i. title.

nc10 0 0 .m55 2 0 07

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2 0 07029826

printed in the united states of america


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ix Foreword bystev en h eller

1 Introduction bydebbie millm a n

5 mich a el bierut“What actually drove me to a therapist was that I had

a very unhealthy obsession with laundry.”

19 ca r in goldberg“When I was growing up, designers were anonymous.

They didn’t do schtick.”

29 milton gl aser“ At the end of the day, I would pound them into oblivion andlook forward to the next day when I could recreate the world.”

41 pau l a sch er“ I wanted to make wonderful things, things that other people liked, things that were important and mattered.”

53 stefa n sagm eister“ A famous designer is like a famous electrician.”

67 n ev ille brody“ It was time to take stock, check my shoes, buy nice clothes,live comfortably for a while, and see the world again.”

77 peter sav ille“ The sort of weird realization I got at Pentagram—onceI was in—was that they really wanted me to recant and see that they were the one true church.”

93 emily ober m a n & bonn ie siegler/ n u m ber 17

“ We should have answered each other’s questions, becauseI knew your answer, and I’m sure that you know mine.”

Contents


H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e r�i

103 ja m es v ictor e“ I try to approach everything as a ‘god job.’ ”

115 john m a eda“ The same sensitivity you can have with an A4 sheet does not apply to people.”

125 pau l sa h r e“ I thought I was going to make my fortune being like Charles Schulz.”

135 chip k idd“ Those are the closest moments to sex in graphic design.”

145 j essica h elfa n d“ I’m too obtuse one day, too vapid the next. Too abstract and intellectual. Too cultivated. Not cultivated enough.”

155 sey mou r ch wast“ After my mind has done its job, Mr. Hand takes over.”

161 lucille tena zas“ I would tell myself that I was not going to be embarrassedcalling someone for the third time in a month.”

173 vaugh a n oli v er“ I would like to get back my love for graphic design, because I think I’ve lost it.”

183 steff geissbu h ler“ I certainly danced a few rounds with the devil in my career, and he often took the lead.”

191 steph en doy le“ At that moment, I felt that Milton Glaser was on par with William Shakespeare and Julius Caesar.”

203 a bbot t miller“ Am I too concerned with conventional notions of beautyand good taste?”

213 m assimo v ign elli“Love is a cake that comes in layers.”

227 Acknowledgments

229 About the Author

231 Index


ix

Forewordby ste�en Heller

Itisnottruethattheinterviewerisonlyasgoodastheinterviewee.Whileagenerousandarticu-lateguestiskeytoanyscintillatingexchange,theinterviewercannotbepassive,laconic,or,worse,uninformed.Interviewsmustbetackledwithzeal,andtheinterviewermustcontrolthediscussionwhilewaitingforthatunexpectedrevelationtoekeout.Askilledhostmustthereforeprepareexhaus-tively:TakeJamesLiptonof“InsidetheActorsStudio,”withhisfamouslylargestackofblueindexcards,eachcontainingapointedquestionneatlyintegratedintoasystematicprogression;whilehetheatricallyexaminesthenarrativesofhissubjects’careers,heisalwaysflexibleenoughtoflowwithunforeseencurrentsofconversation.Liptonbuildsonsurprisingadmissionswhilekeepingtheinter-viewontrack.Andthisisnomeanfeat.

Interviewingrequiresconsiderableacumentoenableboththeexpressiveand,especially,thereticentguesttoopenup.Theworst-casescenario,themonosyllabicsubjectwhoresolutelyguardseachpearlofthoughtoremotion,canbeavoidedwithabatteryofinsightfulqueriesthatforcesakindofchallenge—inthegoodsense.

DebbieMillman,whohashostedtheInter-netradioprogram“DesignMatters”since2005,alwaysdoesherhomework—andthensome.Withherdulcetintonations,sheplieseachofhervisitorswithquestionsdesignedtoevoketheunexpected


H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e rx

response.Atthesametime,sheinspirestheirconfidence,owingtohersincereinterestinthelifeandworkshe’sexploring.Herstyleiscertainlynotofthe“gotcha,”BarbaraWaltersvariety,yetneitherdoesshewearkidgloves.I’vebeeninter-viewedbyheronseveraloccasions,andeachtime,herapproachissomewhatdifferent,tailoredtothemoment.Friendlyyetchallenging,shepro-ceedssmoothlyfromtheinitialintroductionstomorefree-formconversation.Debbiecomestothediscussionwell-prepared,notwithcursorycheatsheets,butpagesofincisivetalkingpointsgarneredfromextensiveresearch.

Thoughsheisthehostoftheonlyradioshowdevotedinlargeparttographicdesign,Debbiewasnottrainedasajournalist.ThefirsttimeIsawhernamewasafewyearsagoonthethen-fledglingdesignblogSpeakUp,whereshedukeditoutwithfounderArminVitaboutbrands(whichhadbecomeoneoftheforum’sbêtes noires).Debbie’sparriesandthrustswiththecriticallyskepticalVitandhiscohortsontheefficacyofbrandingmadeforacom-pellingdebate,andherargumentswerepersuasiveandeminentlylogical.Butwhyshouldn’tshebeconvincing?DebbieisapartneratSterlingBrands,aNewYork–basedbrandidentityfirm,wherehereloquenceiswell-utilized.She’sgracefullymadeittothetopofamale-dominatedbusiness,andherconsiderablestrategicmarketingsavvyallowshertobeaneffectiveadvocateofdesign.

Inlargepart,thisisbecausesheisadevotedaficionadoofdesignanddesigners,althoughherinterestsextendintorealmsofscienceandpsychol-ogy(whichshepoeticallyexaminesinherownblog,http://debbiemillman.blogspot.com).Perhapsanotherreasonsheissoadeptinconversationisthatshetrulyenjoyslearningfromothers.Herpassionateconcernforthepracticeandhistoryofdesignmakesherinterviewscaptivating,thoughlisteningtodesignerstalkabouttheircraftcould


xi

potentiallybetooarcaneevenforthoseinthefield.YetDebbiemakesherprogramrivetingbybalanc-ing,forinstance,therealskinnyonMichaelBierut’sobsessivetendencieswithinsightsabouthisdesignforSaksFifthAvenue’sshoppingbag.

IoftenparaphrasePaulRand’sstatementabouthowheintuitivelycameupwithanideaandthenfoundtherationaleforitlater,whichisn’ttosaythatcomprehendingtherootsofaconcept,orevenlearningaboutthetechnologybehindit,isbad,butittakesoratoryskillandanunderstandingofnuancetodeconstructaprojectsothatthedetailsarenotbanal.Thevirtueofinterviewswithdesign-ers—asopposedtoprosenarrativesaboutthem—isthattheycutthroughtheintellectualizingandgettothecreativeessence,whateverthatmightbe.

Whileaninterviewisnotinherentlyeasy,thebestenablethevoice—theintelligence,humor,irony,evensarcasm—ofthedesignertoemerge.Debbiehas,throughhertête-à-têteswiththedesignersinthisbook,managedtoextractthenitty-grittyoftheirpracticeswithoutsacrificingtheirrespectivehumanity.Sheallowsthemtospeak,butnevertoomuch—ortoolittle.

F o r e w o r D


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introductionby Debbie Millman

From: Steff GeissbuhlerDate: December 3, 2006 6:10:45 PM ESTTo: Debbie MillmanSubject: Re: How To Think Like A Great Graphic Designer

Debbie,

I think that we talk to ourselves, about ourselves, way too much. We have conferences where we talk to ourselves, we give each other awards, we publish each other’s work and words, and basically we pat each other on our backs.

I’m afraid that your book will be read by Graphic Designers only and therefore simply add to the incestuous writing in our profession. However, I found myself answering your questions to see how I would respond. I might be cringing when it’s published, but here it is.

I hope you don’t mind my critical point of view.

I often get questions like this from students, and whenever I do, I get the sense that they are fishing for a recipe to become a successful designer.

With best regards,

Steff

Steff Geissbuhler, PartnerC&G Partners


H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e r�

Despiteitstitle,thisbookwillnotprovidethereaderwitharecipetothinklikesomeofthemostaccomplishedgraphicdesignersofourtime.Con-sideritinsteadaglimpseintothemindsofthesereveredmasters,inordertounderstandthewaytheythinkandwhy.

Thisbookdidn’tstartoutquitethisway.Initially,Isetouttocreateananthologythatdid,infact,attempttouncovercommondenominatorsanddescribethethoughtprocessesofthoseveneratedinthedesignfield.Manyofmyoriginalquestionssmackedofsuperficiality,andeventhoughIwasmiffedwhenIfirstreceivedSteffGeissbuhler’sreply,Iquicklycametomysenses.Afterall,Steffhadapoint.Perhapswedotalktoourselves,aboutourselves,waytoomuch.Butgiventhefactthatdesignisafairlyyoungfield,isthereanythinginher-entlywrongwitharobustinternaldialogue?

Identifyingwhatconstitutesagreatmind,whetherlogicalormagicalorwhimsical,isaneces-sarilysubjectiveendeavor.Emulatingagreatmindisanevenmorecomplexproposition.Thereisnoobjectivewaytobegreat,letalonerecommendanaudience-tested,foolproofwaytocreatewithelegance,ambition,andartistry.IfIwasgoingtoaddtothediscourseofanalreadycacophonousenvironment,Iwantedtogobeyondtacticalquanti-ficationsofhowdesignerswork.Instead,Isetouttoengageindeeplypsychologicaldiscussionsinordertounderstandwhatmotivatesthesepractitionerstothinkandbehaveintheuniquemannerthattheydo.

DesigninvestsrawmatterwithwhatBruceMaucalls“performativity”—itendowsaninertmaterialwithacapacitytoinciteaction.Butinordertoaccomplishthismosteffectively,designersmustconjurethispower.Thisprocessiscompli-cated.Thefundamentalbackboneofanygooddesignsolutionismeasurednotonlybywhatmoti-vatesanaudiencetothinkinaparticularway,butwhatinspiresthemtofeelaresponse.


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Designisoneofthefewdisciplinesthatisascienceaswellasanart.Effective,meaningfuldesignrequiresintellectual,rationalrigoralongwiththeabilitytoelicitemotionsandbeliefs.Thus,designersmustbalanceboththelogicandlyricismofhumanityeverytimetheydesignsomething,ataskthatrequiresasingularlymysteriousskill.

Manyofthedesignersinterviewedinthisbookdescribedesignasaproblem-solvingactivity,yetit’sclearthatthesedesignersdofarmorethanthat.Despitetheobvioussimilarities,thereisonetraitsharedbyeachandeverypersoninthisgroupofdesigners:highlevelsofempathy.Theirsensitiv-ityhasgiventhemtheabilitytologically,poetically,andtelegraphicallytransferideasfromonemindtoanother.Itimbuesthetalenteddesignerwithawizardryofsorts,anuncannyabilitytocreateamessageandapurityofexpressionthatcutsthroughthemodern-daychaosofsensoryoverload.

Thisistheremarkablepowereverydesignerfeaturedinthisbookhasinabundance.Inmyinter-viewwithhim,MiltonGlaserobserved,“Youcon-veyyourideasbytheauthenticityofyourbeing.”Throughoutthesepages,thereareagreatmanymasterswhoofferideasandwisdomthroughtheirauthenticity.Ultimately,theconversationscon-tainedinthisbookrevealhowdesignersthinkandviewtheworld,buttheyarealsoatestamenttohowandwhygreatdesignersareabletocreatetheextraordinaryworkthattheydo.

i n T r o D u C T i o n


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Michael Bierut

When I first contacted Michael Bierut about talking with him for this book, he asked that we conduct the interview via e-mail. When I received his responses, I found it hard to believe that Bierut—coeditor of the anthology LookingCloser:CriticalWritingsonGraphicDesign and a cofounder of the blog Design Observer—could possibly have written what were easily the most uninteresting answers I had received thus far. Two examples:

What was your first creative memory?I’mnotsureIhaveanycreativememories.

Did you ever have serious aspirations to pur-sue any other type of career, and if so, what?No.

Yet Michael, a Pentagram partner since 1990, is one of the most important and acclaimed designers working today. Not only has he won hundreds of design awards, not only is his work represented in the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art, but Michael is charming, engaging, witty, and brilliant. The interview contained none of these attributes.

I was despondent: The idea of not includ-ing Bierut in a book about esteemed contemporary designers was unthinkable. After some nudging, he agreed to an in-person interview. He graciously gave me two hours of his time, and our discussion ended up being one of the funniest and most entertaining interviews I conducted for the book.



How would you say that you and your fellow Pentagram partner Paula Scher are different?

Paulasayswhatshethinks.Iadmireheralotforthat.IhavegivenupwishingthatIcouldbelikethat.I’vediscoveredI’mreallyaversetoconflict.IthinkIwasbroughtuptobetoopolite!Thenega-tiveaspectofthisisthatI’mpassive-aggressive.Ihavedeeplyrootedneurosesandflaws,whichactuallycompelmetofixthingssothatasmanypeopleaspossible—actuallyeveryoneintheworld—likesme.

You don’t seem to have an unhappy bone in your body.Thatcouldalsobedenial.PaulausedtosaythatIwasthekindofguywhocouldbelikethisfor30years,andthenonedaycomeintotheofficewithamachinegunandgopostal.ButIthinkI’vegottenoverthat,also.Ontheotherhand,asyoucanseeinthecaseofapoliticiandesperateforeveryone’sapproval,youendupgettingreallyconfusedaboutwhatyourownconvictionsare.

Intermsofdesign,Ireallyadmireandenvydesignerswhoalwaysmustdoittheirwayandcanwalkawayfromajobifit’snotdoneontheirownterms.Irememberearlyoninmycareer,Iworkedwithaguywhowasabsolutelysecureinhisconvic-tions;thoughhelikeditwhenpeopleagreedwithhim,itwasn’tnecessaryinorderforhimtofeelthathewasright.WhereasifIgointoaclientmeeting,andIcan’tsellsomething,IfeellikeI’vefailedandmyconvictionsgetshaken.

WhenIfirststartedtalkingdirectlytoclients,IhadsomemomentswhereIgotsoobsessedwithobtainingapprovalaboutaprojectthatImistookthatfordoingthejobright.Bythetimeoneprojectwasabouttogotopress,Iremembermyboss—MassimoVignelli—sayingtome,“Whatisthis?”AndIsaid,“Thisisajobforso-and-so.”Andhesaid,“Whydoesitlookthisway?”AndIstartedtosay,“Well,theydidthis,andthentheydidthat,andit


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hadtobethis,”andhesaid,“No.Thisisawful.Wecan’tletthisgo.”Hepickedupthephoneatmydeskandcalledupthebossofthebossofthebossoftheguywhohadbeenjerkingmearoundforthreeweeksandsaid,“Youknowthisthingyou’redoingfortheblahblahblah?I’mnotsureit’squiteright.Iwanttodoitright.We’llsenditoverafterwedoonemorethingtoit.Wehavetime,right?”Thenhesatthereandscrapedoffalltheshitthathadaccruedonitoverthepastthreeweeksanddidsomethingcrispandrightandperfect.

Massimohadthissaying:“Onceaworkisoutthere,itdoesn’treallymatterwhattheexcuseswere.”

It doesn’t matter if you didn’t have enough time or if the client was an idiot. The only thing that counts is what you’ve designed, and whether it’s good or bad.

Thesearewordstoliveby.Ihaveovercompensatedbytryingtodolotsandlotsofworkinthehopesthatsomethinggoodwillgetoutthere.Ithinkmybat-tingpercentageissolowthatIjusthavetogetlotsofat-batsinordertoeventhescoreatall.

Do you really believe that?Yes.Ilikeworkingfast,andthoughnowI’moldenoughtoknowbetter,I’vegottenaddictedto“closingmyeyesandshooting.”It’sabadwaytohitatarget,actually.

Well, if you had missed the target a number of times, you probably would have stopped working that way. The fact that you haven’t stopped means you’ve had some success.

Yes.Sometimesifyou’refast,it’smistakenforgenius.ButIdon’tthinkit’snecessarilygood.Youcangetacclimatedtoacertainwayofworking;yougetsomeusefulhabits,butyoualsopickupothersthataren’tverygood.

M i C H A e L B i e r u T



TherearetimeswhenIknowthatIhavetowritesomethingforDesignObserver[theblogaboutdesignandvisualculturefoundedbyBierut,JessicaHelfand,WilliamDrenttel,andRickPoynor],andI’llkeepremindingmyselfthatIhavetopostitonThursday,andyetI’llkeepputtingitoffandputtingitoff.AslongasIknowwhatthesubjectis,andaslongasI’vebeenthinkingaboutitforaweekorso,whenI’mready,Icanstartwritingandcontinueonwardallthewaytotheend—oneparagraphafteranotheruntilit’sfinished.It’sasifI’mworkingwithanoutlinethatwaswrittendowntomyelbow.WhileitmightseemthatIhaven’tbeenworkingallthattime,Iactuallyhave—itwasjustunconsciousor“sub-conscious”working.

You were germinating.WhenIfirststartedwriting,oneofthereasonsIlikeditsomuchwasbecauseitwassohardtodo.IwouldfinishapieceIhadwrittenandgobackandlookatitandrereaditagain,andI’dthink,“Wowthisreallyisgreat,it’sreallynicethewayIdidthis.”ItremindedmeofthewayIfeltaboutdesignintheverybeginning.IrememberlookingatthefirstprototypeIdesigned.Ijustcouldn’ttakemyeyesoffofit;itwassobeautiful,soreal,andsoperfect.Butoverenoughtime,itbecomesalltooflawed,orworse,youbecomeboredwithit.

Likewisethefirsttimeyoureceiveafinishedpiece;I’vegotmyfirstprintedpiecesomewhereinmybasement.I’vegotsamplesofallsortsofthings:abrochureforalampcompanythatIdid25yearsago.Itwasatwo-colorpiece,andIthinkIhave20copiesofit.Atthetime,Ithoughtitwasreallyimportant,andIhadtohavethatmanycopiesofitbecauseitwasjustsobeautiful.Andofcourseitwasn’tthatgood,butitwasoneofthefirstthingsIdesignedthatgotprinted.Iwasmesmerizedbytherealnessofit.Ithadmeallagog.


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Ithinkreallybrilliantpeopledoanumberofdifferentthingswhenthey’reworking.They’reabletoforcethemselvestoputalotoftimeintothingsandgivethemalotofattention,andnotsuccumbtotheshortcutsthatregularpracticecanleadto.StefanSagmeisterworkslikethis.OrelseyouhavesomeonelikeTiborKalman,whopurposelyfixeditsothathedidn’trepeathimself.

How did he do that?Hewoulddotwothings.One,he’dbeveryambi-tiousaboutdoingthingsinanewgenre.Ifsomeonecametohimtodesignabrochureforamuseumexhibition,andhe’dalreadydesignedabrochureforamuseumexhibition,he’dsay,“No,Iwanttodesignthe exhibition,”eventhoughhe’dneverdesignedanexhibitionbefore.

Healso—andIthinkthiswasakindofpathology/genius—hewasabletoburnhisbridgesbehindhimsohecouldensurehewouldn’trepeathimself.Afterhedidtheanimated“NothingButFlowers”videofortheTalkingHeads,hereceivedalotofcallsfromtelevisiondirectors.Theywouldsay,“HeyTibor,couldyoudothattypographythingonmycommercial,couldyoudothis,couldyoudothat?”

Tiborhatedbeinghiredbecausesomeonethoughtheknewhowtodosomethingwell.Ilovebeinghiredforit.Ihaveanunrestrainedenthusi-asmforbeinghiredtodosomethingthatIdowell.Itcangettobetoughwhenyou’vedonesomethingoverandoveragain,especiallyifit’sagenreofworkthatyouhaveareputationforandyoukeepgettingcallstodoanotheroneandthenanotherone.Even-tually,yourunoutofwaystodoitdifferently,andyoufindthatit’shardtodisguisethefactthatthisverythingthathasgivenyousomuchpleasureisnownotenough.

It’sabasicpsychologicalreaction;it’slikeratswithpelletsinamaze.Youknowexactlywhatgave



H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e r�0

youpleasurethefirsttimeyoutriedit,andyoutrytokeeprepeatingthethingthatledtothatsuccess.Andjustlikeanyaddict,youknowthesubsequentpaybackisinsufficient.Yourememberthatthefirsttimeithappened,itwaswonderful;andbythetenthtime,it’s,“Hohum,here’sanotherone.I’mnotevengoingtotakeapictureofit,nevermind20copiesinthebasement.”

Are you addicted to anything?Reading.

Reading? You consider reading an addiction?Ihavearealfearofbeingalonewithnothingtoread.Ofbeingonaplanewithnothingtoread.Itakeittoanextreme.There’ssomethingreallyextremeaboutgoingtoanamusementparkwithmykidsandneedingtotakeabookwithmejustincasethelineforridesistoolong.Ithinkalotofitistoinoculatemyself,tokeepmymindfullsothatIdon’thaveanytimeforself-reflection.I’vereallytriedtoimprovethis.

Do you think that you’re trying to distract yourself, trying not to confront something?

Ithinkonsomelevel,yes.ButIthinkontheotherhand,it’sjustlikealotofcompulsions:Ialsohavetojogthreemileseverymorning.

What happens if you don’t?Well.Youreallywanttoknow?Ihaveachartinmybasement,andIhaveyearsandyearsofcalen-darsonclipboards.Theyallhavedifferentmark-ingsondifferentdays.TherearemarkingsImakewhenIdocertainthings,andcertainmarksImakewhenIdootherthings.SometimesIgivemyselfaspecialdispensationnottorun,whichiseitheroneofthreereasons:EitherIhavean8:30a.m.appointment,it’srainingprettyhard,orit’sbelowtendegrees—notincludingthewindchill,


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buttheactualthermometerreading.Forthesereasons,I’mallowednottorunthatmorning.Nooneelsecares.Literally,nooneelsecares.

Why did you choose ten degrees as the cutoff point?It’ssingledigits.It’sreallycoldwhenit’sninedegrees,evenwhenyou’rerunning.Twelvedegreesyoucanrun—it’snotsobad.Lessthanninedegrees,runningbecomesunbearable.

IfIsleeplate,Idrawalittlesadfaceforthatdayonthecalendar,afrownface.IfIdon’trun,I’llmakeanX.It’shorrible,allthesereallycompulsivethings.Ontheotherhand,exerciseisgoodforyou.

So this calendar is sort of a hieroglyphic diary of your life.

Yes,itis.Butit’snothingI’mproudof.Ithinkit’sfucked-upandembarrassing,totellyouthetruth.Itisnotworthemulatingatall.Oh,andthere’smore.Ikeepnotebooks.Ihave79ofthem.Theygobackto1982.They’reallunlined,whichisreallyhardtofind,hardertofindnowthanever.

Do you have boxes of these notebooks stockpiled?Newones?I’mabouttorunout.Ihadsomeonescoremeawholecacheabouttwoyearsago.IcanfindthegenesisofeverysinglethingI’veeverworkedoninthem.Andthentherearealotofnotesfrommeetingsandlotsandlotsofphonenumbers.

How many do you carry around at a time?Icarrythecurrentoneandthepreviousone.

When you’re first carrying around numbers 79 and 80, how does it feel to put number 78 away?

Ihonestlycan’tsaythere’sthatmuchceremonyinvolved.TheonlythingIcansayforsureisthattherearetwothatI’velost.Irememberbothofthemverydistinctly.OneofthemIhadjuststarted,andIlostit,soIsimplyrestartedit.Theotherone



H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e r��

wasalmostcompleted,andIleftitinabathroominHeathrowAirport.

Now,youmayask,“Whywasitinthebath-roominHeathrowAirport?”Well,Iwassittingonthecan.Ihadnothingelsetoread.Ididn’thaveabook,Ididn’thaveanewspaper,andIdidn’thaveamagazine.That’smynightmare:tryingtogotothebathroomwithnothingtoread.SoItookoutmynotebookandstartedlookingatit,andthenIfinishedandwashedmyhandsandwentawaywhistling.IforgetwhenIrealizedthatitwasgone.It’sinterestinginthatIfoundIcouldsurvivequitewellwithoutit.

Sometimes,I’llgotoameetingandforgetmynotebook,soIcan’twritethingsdown.WhenI’mworkingonaproject,I’llhaveameetingwithclientsandasklotsofquestionsandtakelotsofnotes,allwiththeideathatI’mgoingtobeporingoverthematgreatlengthlater.ButIreallydon’t,becauseit’salreadyinmymind.Sometimes,I’llgobacktochecktosee,“Whatwerethosethreethingstheysaid?”Ithinkjusttheactofwritingsomethingdownhelpsclarifythingsinyourmind.

Rightnow,I’mmovingmydeskatPentagrambecausetheavailableseatforLukeHayman—whojoinedPentagramasapartner—isrightontheend.Itwouldberudetoputthenewguyontheend.SoI’mgoingtositatthatdesk,whichmeansthatIhavetomoveallofmystuff.Mystuffincludesallthosenotebooks,all77ofthem.AndIhaveabunchofcalendarsIusedbeforeIwentdigital.Everyonceinawhile,I’llopenuponefrom1991andlookatallthenamesandappointmentsandthingsthat,atthetime,seemedsoimportant.MeetingsthatIwasreallyworriedabout,thingsthatIwasgettingcallsfourtimesadayabout,andIwonder,“Wherediditallgo?Wherearetheynow?”It’ssostrange,everythinghasdisappeared.Theonlythingthatstaysbehindisthework.


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I think I keep things I’ve worked on around me as evidence that I’ve participated in something, though they do become useful when you’re the victim of a random IRS audit.

Yes.I’veoftensaidthatifI’meverthevictimofarandomaudit,I’mjustgoingtokillmyself.Andpeo-plesay,“Why?Youhaven’tdoneanythingwrong.”AndIsay,“Ihavedonewrong.Idon’tknowwhatI’vedonewrong,butI’vedonelotsofthingswrong.Idon’tknowwhattheyare.ButIamsoguilty.”

What frustrates you?Physicalthings,stupidthings.I’llgetreallymadatadrawerthatwon’tcloseproperly.Ibangitshutoverandoveragainwhileshouting,“Thismotherfuckingthingjustwon’tstayclosed!”NowthatI’mawareofthis,I’mmuchbetteratit,actually.IhadaperiodinmylifewhenIhadangerissues.

What about your wife, did she ever see it?Ohyes,shewouldseeit.ButIwouldn’tgetmadather.Iwouldgetmadatanyonewhowouldn’thanguptheircoats.Iwouldgetobsessedwithneatnessissues.WhatactuallydrovemetoatherapistwasthatIhadaveryunhealthyobsessionwithlaundry.I’minchargeofdoingthelaundryinmyfamily—andI’vegonefromsimplydoingthelaundrytohavinganentireweekend-longmethodologyfordoingthelaundry.

Withoutgoingintotoomuchdetail,ithadtodowithwhatorderthingswerewashedin,andmostimportantly,howtheclothesarefoldedandstacked.Now,keepinmindthatfivepeopleliveinmyhouse.IgottoapointwhereIwouldfoldmyson’spantsinacertainway.Allofthejeanswouldbetogether,thekhakiswouldallbetogether,andtheshirtswouldbeorganizedinacertainway.

Hehasthreebasickindsofshirts:short-sleevedpoloT-shirts,short-sleevedshirts,andlong-sleevedshirts.Sotheywouldhavetobeorganized




likethis:collaredpoloshirtsfirst,thenlong-sleevedshirts,thenshort-sleevedT-shirts.AndIwoulddothisoverandoveragainforallfivepeopleinthehouse.Actuallygettingallofthisstagedproperlytakesalotoftime.

Whatmadememadwasthatnooneseemedtoappreciatemyefforts.Theywoulddemonstratetheirlackofappreciationbyjustgrabbinganygoddamnthingtheywantedrightoutofthepile.Andthepilewouldtoppleover.Yet,whilesomeonemightthinkIhadalegitimatecauseforirritation,itturnsoutthiswholethingwasreallyanattempttoattainsomesortofcontrol.

Did it give you great joy to see those stacks of neatly folded clothing?

Sure.Doyouliketocook?Ihatetocook.I’lltellyouwhy:Yougetitallreadyandpeoplejustmessitup.Iliketowashthedishes.Yougetthemwashedandthenthey’reneatlyorganized,perfectlyclean—sometimesthey’recleanforweeks.

Are there any areas in your life where you’re messy?Unfortunately,notanymore.Iwasn’tlikethisasakid.Well,mydeskisalittlemessy.Mybooksaremessy.

It’s funny; I’m a fairly messy designer. It doesn’t show in my work, but my process is messy.

Sometimessomeonewillask,“Oh,we’redoingapieceaboutprocess,canyoushowusyourdesignprocess?”AndIknowexactlywhattheywant.Theywantthissequenceofroughsketchesleadingtoalmost-roughsketchesleadingtoalmost-finishedworkleadingtothefinal,chosenpiece.

Idon’thavethosethings;Idon’tworkinasortofmethodicalway.Alotofyourquestionsareaboutcreativity,andIdon’tthinkdesigninvolvesthatmuchcreativity.Itinvolvescreativityinthewaydoingacrosswordpuzzleinvolvescreativity.


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Youneedsomeimaginationandknowledge.Ithinkofartistsascreativebecausetheyhavetoinventsomethingoutofnothing.Ithinkdesignersdesignbecausetheycan’tinventsomethingoutofnothing.Oratleastthat’swhyIdesign.

So you see design as more of an exercise in connectivity rather than creativity?

Yes.OneofthethingsIadmireisseeingadesignerre-purposingsomethingratherthaninventingsomethingbrand-new.IrememberwhenIfirstsawthe1990TimeWarnerannualreportthatKentHunterdid—the“Why?”Annual.Therewasn’tasinglethinginitthatwasnew.ItwasallrippedoutofoldSpymagazines.Buttherewassomethingabouttheaudacityofit.Beingabletoputallthosethingstogetherforthisparticularpurposewasamazing.Butifyouactuallyexaminedit,therewasn’tmuchoriginalform-making.Otherpeoplehaddonetheoriginalform-making.

AlotofitwastakenfromRickValicenti,whoisverycompelledtomakethings.Hecanstartwithablankpieceofpaper.Hisformsseemtocomeintuitively,andhisclientsalignthemselveswithhisinterestinmakingthesethings,andtheygetthebenefitofit.

WhenIgetarequesttocomeupwithsome-thingbrand-new,it’sreallyhardforme.Reallyhard.Ienduphavingtoinventaprobleminordertodoit.AndthatissomethingIjustlovedoing.Itgivesmegreatphysicalpleasuretosolveproblems.Iremem-berwatchingMassimoVignellidothingsoverandoveragain.Buteachtime,theywerealwaysslightlydifferent.Hefoundenormouspleasureinfindingslightlydifferentwaysofdoingthethingthathelovedtodo.

Andgooddesignerscan’talwaysdothat.Theyarewhotheyare,andsomehowastheirworkdevelops—nomatterhoweclectictheythinktheyare—theyendupfindingthatthere’sacertain




handiworkthatcomesoutofthemthatisjustascompulsiveasalotofthecompulsionsthatweall—someofusatleast—aredrivenby.

Given your self-admitted sense of being deeply flawed, to what do you attribute your success and popularity?

Irememberbeinginhighschool.ThiswasbeforeItooktheSATs,andIwantedtoprepareforthem.Thiswasbackinthe’70s,andtherewerenoSATpreparatoryclasses.Iremembersomeonesay-ing,“Youcan’tstudyforthesetests.It’snatural.”Irememberthinking,“Can’tstudy?Excellent!Inthatcase,letmenotstudy.”IrememberIcarriedtwonewNumber2pencils,andIshowedupontimeandIsatdownandtookthetests.

AndIgotverygoodSATscores.IremembermyguidancecounselortellingmetheyweresogoodthatIcouldgetascholarshipandgotoanIvyLeagueschoolwithmyscores.AndIrememberthinkingthatIwasgoodatart.Ialreadyknewwhatgraphicdesignwas.MyguidancecounselorthoughtIwasreallysmartandfeltitwasawasteformetogointoartinsteadofbecomingadoctororalawyer.IthoughtthattheremustbealotofsmartdoctorsandlawyersbutIdidn’tthinktherecouldbequiteasmanysmartcommercialartists.AndIrememberthinking,“Ibetasmartcommercialartistwouldreallyhaveanedgeonthings.”

Andthat’swhatIthinkIam.I’masmartcommercialartist.TherewereatleasttwootherkidsinmycollegeclassesthatwerebetternaturaldesignersthanIwas.Butattheendoftheday,havingsomethingissueforthfromjustyourimagi-nationwillonlygetyousofar.

Thatdoesn’twinyouaproject.Thatdoesn’tfindaspecificsolutiontoallowyoutoindulgeyourcreativity,thatdoesn’thelpyouexplainthatsolu-tiontoyourclients,thatdoesn’thelpyoudoallthe


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hardworkthatwillmusterupbiggroupsofpeopletodomajorthings.

Allofthosethingstakesomethingelse:brains.IactuallythinkthatI’vecompensatedforwhateverflawsandshortcomingsIhaveasacreativepersonbybeingsmartandwell-readandbyworkingreally,reallyhard.Andbygettingmoreat-bats.IseemtohitalotofhomerunsbecauseIhavetentimesasmanyat-batsaseveryoneelseintheleague.Mean-while,thestandsarelitteredwithfoulballsandstrikeouts.AndnooneknowsaboutthembecauseIdon’tcountthose.Right?



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Carin Goldberg

It was the summer of 1983. David Bowie, The Police, and Evelyn “Champagne” King filled the airwaves. When a little-known artist burst onto the scene, the way our culture viewed celebrity and the cult of visual reinvention was changed forever.

I am, of course, alluding to Madonna. The moment I saw her first album, I knew something was forever different. I am not, however, referring to the singer herself. I am describing the profound impact of the album cover. Unapologetically in-your-face, the cover was charismatically smart and sassy. But here’s the kicker: The cover conveyed an attitude that was distinctly Madonna long before the singer had culti-vated her characteristic bravado. And that cover (and the necklace that graced Madonna in the photograph) was created by Carin Goldberg.

Carin has been working in the field of graphic design for over 30 years, completing design and advertising commissions for major publishing, music, and TV corporations. She’s headed her own firm, Carin Goldberg Design, since 1982. She designed and authored her first book, titled Catalog, in 2001, and has been working on Home, a second collection.

Carin and I talked over lunch at a Manhattan eatery and lingered until the restaurant began to serve dinner. We discussed career relevance and longevity, her dispute with Tibor Kalman, the impor-tance of taking risks, her longtime friendship with Paula Scher, and, of course, fishing for flounder.



What do you love most about design?Thereissomethingverygratifyingwhenyou’reinvolvedinyourwork—onceyou’vehitthatpointoffocusandyou’rereallyinit.That’swhatwealllookfor.Weallwaitforthatmomentwhenwe’reinit,andwelovethemakingofthepiece.

What don’t you like?Theschtick.

The schtick?Alotofdesignhasbecomeaboutschtick.Peoplemighttakemetotaskforthis,butyouknowwhatitremindsmeof?It’slikethis:Someonestartsoffinlifeverybeautiful.Thenthere’ssomeoneelsewho’snotsobeautiful.Butintheend,bothpeoplegetwrinkledandold.We’reallonthesameplanet,anditreallydoesn’tmatter.Therealdilemmaisthis:Shouldwejustgrabtheschtickwhilewecan,anduseit?Becausewhenwehitourfiftiesorsixties,we’llallbeinthesameboat.

It’sreallyhardnowadaystomaintainacareeringraphics,particularlyinthefieldofgraphicdesign.It’sayouth-orientedbusiness.Ioftenwon-deraboutwhetherI’mrelevantornot.Butthat’snothowIwasbroughtup.It’snotwhatIsaw.

WhenIwasgrowingup,designerswereanonymous.Theyweren’tcelebrities.Theydidnotwritebooks.Theydidn’tdoschtick.Notoneofthem.

Soitbecamecleartomeatacertainpointinmycareerthatbeingpubliclyclevermightbetheonlythingthatcouldgivemycareeranykindoflongevity.Ithasbeenaroughthingtocometogripswith.I’mcertainlynotashrinkingviolet,butIdon’tgetgreatenjoymentoutofgettinguptherepubliclyanddoingthatkindofthing.I’dratherdothework.Ialsothinkthatalotofpeoplefindthatwhentheschtickreallyworks,they’reonplaneshalfthetimedoingtheschtick.


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Iwonderwhentheyhavethetimetodothework,andI’malsosuspiciousastowhethertheyactuallyhave“thework.”

You’ve had a long and illustrious career. How would you describe it?

I’lltellyouastory.WhenIwaslittle,Iusedtogofishingwithmyfather.Hewasanoutdoorsman,andweusedtogoouttotheLongIslandSoundinalittleboat.We’dputourrodsout,andwewouldhopethatwewouldhitbigpocketsofflounder.Andsometimesyouwouldhitthem,andsometimesyouwouldn’t.Butsometimesifwehitthathole,wecouldfilltwogiantgalvanizedcanswithflounder,andwewouldbringalloftheflounderhometotheneighbors.Everyonewouldwaitforustocomeback,andthentheyknewthey’dbeeatingflounderfortheentirewinter.

Andthat’showIthinkofmycareer.Ihitsomeflounderholes.Ihittherecordbusinessatatimewhenflounderswerethereforme.Ihitthebookbusinessatatimewhenflounderswerethereforme.MycolleaguesandIwereundertheradar,spin-ninguptheseflounders,andIrememberthinking,“Isanybodywatchingthis,whyaren’ttheywithusgettingtheflounders,too?”Wecouldnotbelievewewerealoneinthisgreatdiscovery.

Thatwaswhatitwaslikeforme.Iwasveryluckytofindtheseflounderholes,thesemomentsofutterfertility.Iwaslucky.Luckytobethere,whileitwasallhappening.Butaftertheluck,therewasallthehardwork.That’sthepartthatmakesmejustabsolutelylivid,whenIhearmentalkingaboutwomenandtheircareers.Inmyowncareer,Ihadtobeastenaciousasadogwithabone.

ImadesureIwasobservingandwatchingandlookingovertheshouldersoftherightpeopleandlearningfromthemandkillingmyselftolearneverythingIcould.Somycareerhasbeenaboutluckandhardwork.

C A r i n G o L D B e r G



Having projects come your way might be luck but doing a good job with them is much more than that. Let’s talk about security. How important has security been to you?

Irememberthemomentin1983whenIknewIwouldneverbeapainter.ItwasbecauseIwouldneversurvive.I’vegivenlecturesonthis.Iopenitupbysaying,“I’magraphicdesignerbecauseIlikenicesheetsandtowels.”AndIrealizetoothatIdon’tliketobealone.OccasionallyIdo,butoftenIdon’t.Thereisasmallpartofmethatlovesbeingsolitary.Asakid,Iusedtorunawaytobebymyselfanddraw.That’showitallstarted.

As a graphic designer, I like collaboration. I don’t want to be in a cold garret somewhere smoking unfiltered Camels all by myself with paint all over my body—because I like sheets too much.

Speakingofcompromise,IrememberformyfirstjobatCBSRecords,IhiredMiltonGlasertodoanillustrationforaCaroleKingad.AsIwasdialinghisphonenumber,Iwasshakinginmyboots.Itwaslikecallingthepope.IrememberIranghimup,andIaskedhimtodoanillustrationforafull-pageadforCaroleKing.Hesentmeanillustrationthatwas—well,let’ssayitwasn’thisbest.Iknewit.Evenatthatage,Iknewit,eventhoughIthoughtofhimasGod’sgifttotheuni-verse.SoIcalledhisrepandtoldhimwewerehopinghe’dgiveussomethingdifferent.

Miltonabsolutelyrefused.Hejustsaid,“Sorry,whatyouseeiswhatyouget.”AndIwenthomeandcriedanddidn’tsleepforaweekbecauseIthoughtIhadoffendedMiltonGlaser.Itwasn’tuntilmanyyearslaterthatIrealizedthathehaddonetherightthingbystandingupforwhathethoughtwasright.Ifyoudon’t,peoplewilltakeeverythingyouhave.Youmayrisklosingajob,butinthegrandschemeofthings,Ibelievethat


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bystandingupforyourself,you’redoingthegraphicdesignbusinessaservice.

Iusedtogetangrywithfriendsofminewhowerealsodoingbook-jacketdesignasfreelancers.Theywouldn’tchargeformessengerbillsandtheywouldn’tchargeformechanicals,andI’dsay,“Youknow,you’refuckingitupfortherestofus.”Andthey’dsay,“I’mafraidIwon’tgetcalledagain.”Anditjustdrovemecrazy.I’mabigbelieverinthebun-geejump.Ithinkyouhavetodotherightthingandthefairthingevenifyou’reafraid.

WhenIstoppeddesigningbookjackets,itwasahugebungeejump.IknewIcouldhavebeenshootingmyselfinthefoot.ButIcouldn’tgetupinthemorninganymoreandgotomydesk;IcouldnotdealwiththepeopleIwasdealingwithany-more.Itwasover.AndIthinkyouhavetotakethoserisks.Ittakesawhiletorecover,butintheend,youendupaheadofthegame.Morallyandemotionally,you’veevolved.

Back in 1989, Tibor Kalman said that you and Paula Scher and Louise Fili were pillaging design history. Why do you think he felt that way?

Insomeways,whathesaidwasvalid.Inretrospect,Ican’treallyfaulthimforwhathewassaying.Itwasatimewhenwewerechangingthings.Chang-ingthewaydesignwasbeingdone.IfyoulookatwhatIwasdoing,whatPaulaScherwasdoing,andwhatLouiseFiliwasdoing,ithadtohappen.Designwasevolving.Ifyoulookatthearchitectureofthattime,ifyoulookatphotography,itwasallhappen-ingatonce.Therewasadiscoveryofsomethingthatwehadpreviouslynotknownabout.Itwasinexplicable.Youcancallitpostmodernism,forlackofabetterdescription.Myhusband,JimBiber,wentthroughitinarchitecture.It’sthenatureofthewaythesemovementsoccur.Allofasudden,therewerebooksaroundthathadn’tbeentherebefore.Suddenly,wedidn’twanttobeartdirectors




anymore.Wedidn’twanttoshootapictureofsome-bodyandstickanameonthecover.Wewantedtodesignthings.

So how did that make you a pillager of design history rather than, say, a catalyst for change?

PaulagotcrucifiedforherSwatchwatchcampaignbecauseitwasanhomagetoHerbertBayer.MybookcoverforJamesJoyce’sUlyssesgotkilledbecauseitwasanhomagetomodernistposters.Iwasaskedtodosomethingthatwaspurelytypographicbecausethefamous1960scoverbyE.McKnightKaufferwasabigU.Thepublishersdidn’twanttolosethattradition,andtheywantedmetodoyetanotherbigU,soIdid12bigU ’s,anditjustsohappenedthattheUtheyendedupwithwasinfluencedbyaSwissdesignIhadseenwhiledoingmyresearch.

Now,ifyouthinkaboutit,thereisnocon-tentinaU.Thepublishersdidnotwantcontent.Iwantedcontent.TheydidnotwantmetoreadUlyssesandthencomeupwithacontent-orientedcover.Today,ifyoudon’thavecontentinsomewayembeddedinyourjacketdesign,youareconsideredtonotbedoingyourjob.

Thesamethinghappenedtomewhiledesign-ingtheOliverSacksbook,The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.Thepublishers,innouncertainterms,didn’twantmetodoanythingthatwasintel-lectual.Iwantedtodosomethingverysurrealistic,veryMagritte;Iwantedtogocrazy.ButIcouldn’t.NowI’vegotthiscoveroutthere,andonceit’soutthere,itbecomesfodderforpeoplewhoareinapositiontodenouncewhatyou’redoing,bycriticiz-ingyouaspartofagrouporasanindividual.

Ifyou’redoingacoverforthepoetryofRainerMariaRilke,youareessentiallydealingwithworkthatcan’tchange.Thepoetryitselfisaworkofart.Youinvestigateitasaworkofartcomingoutofaparticulartime.Youask:WhowasRilke?What


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didtheworklooklikethen?Howdoyoumakeitrelevant?It’snotlikethe“newandimproved”Rilke.It’sstillRilke.Howcanyouvisuallyeducateyourpublic?ThepublishersarereissuingthisRilke,it’snotbeingrewritten.It’snotlikeDaveEggersisrewritingRilke.

Sowhatdoyoudo?Doyoudosomemod-ern,weird,wackything?No,yougotothesource,becauseyouwanttomaintainthework’sintegrity.Atthattime,inthe1980s,thegeneralpublicwasnotawareoftheWienericht,andnooneknewwhattheBauhauswas.But20yearslater,thisstylehasbecomeubiquitous.Atthetime,wewereunearthingwhathadnotyetbeenverbalizedasavisualstyle.

Do you ever want to do anything besides graphic design?

Yes.Iwantedtobeapainter.IstillwouldliketofindawaythatIcanmakemyownwork,perhapspaint-ingordrawing.Istillhavealotofideas;Istillfeellikethere’sasideofmethatwouldliketosegueintothis.Ihaven’tfiguredouthowtodoityet.IthinkthisisbecauseI’mstillfundamentallyexcitedaboutbeingagraphicdesigner.

Do you ever look back on your work and say, “Damn, that was a good cover design”?

Itdependsontheday.ImightbeproudofthefactIdidit.Iwouldlikelybeboredbyit.I’dbeboredbecauseIwouldlikeanother15yearstodoitallover.IdidthosebookcoverswhenIwasprettywetbehindtheears.NowIfeelIwouldhavedonesomeofitverydifferently.SoIusuallythink,“Ugh,Iwouldhavedonethatdifferently...”Irarelythink,“Oh,IwasluckyIcoulddothat,andthatwaskindofcool.”

EveryonceinawhiletherearedayswhenImightlookatsomethingandthink,“Hmm,maybethatwasalittleaheadofthecurve...”Butit’supand




down;itprimarilyhastodowithwishingIdidn’thavetocareaboutthebodyofwork.I’mmoreinter-estedinmynextphase.Likeanythingyoudoinlife,I’mproudofthefactthatI’vegottenbetterandthatIhavewisdom.I’mproudthatIcanimpartthatwisdomtomystudents,andthatIcanhelpmyselfgrowandmoveonwiththatwisdom.Thatisveryexcitingtome.Icanlookbackandsay,“Wow,I’vereallylearnedalot.”ButI’mnotdoneyet.

How do you know when something you’ve designed is really good?

Whenyou’rehavingfun.“Fun”isatrickyword.Peoplethinkthatifyou’rehaving“fun,”you’reignoringcontent,oryou’reignoringtheimportanceofthepiece.Butthat’snottrue.Itrytocreatevisualimagerythatisfunandfunnyandwarmandartful,withoutbeingsuperficial,andworkthathasapoint.I’vealwaysthoughtofmyself—Imean,thisisadirtyword,maybethere’sabetterwordforit—butIhavethoughtofmyselfasapopulistontheonehand,andacompleteelitistontheotherhand.

There is a part of me that wants to speak a common language, and there is a part of me that wants to scramble the language.

Idohaveaconsciousnessaboutthat.Idon’thaveamanifestothatI’vewrittenaboutthis,butIthinkthatIhavetwoverydistincttakesonwhatmyjobis.IfeellikeIstraddlethefenceoftheAbbottMiller,“Whatisthemanifesto?”approachwithMichaelBierut’s“DogFood”approach.

Idon’tthinkeithercanexistonitsown.Ithinkwemustalwaystrytoelevate.It’sthejobwe’resupposedtobedoing.Wehavetotrytogetpeopletofeelcomfortable—butnottoocomfort-able.Idon’tliketalkingabovepeopleormakingthemfeelthattheyhavetoworktoohardto


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understandthedesignthat’sinfrontofthem.Idowantthemtowork,butIdon’twanttoboremyselftodeathandmakesomethinguncomfortableeither.

There’snoquestionthatIwanttheretobeavoiceinmywork.Whetherit’saconceitofsome-thingverysimplisticoraconceitofambiguity.I’mveryclearaboutwhatIwanttosay.Peoplehavesaid—andsometimestheysayitnicelyandsome-timestheysayitwithanagenda—thattheyseemyworkasbeingbeautiful.Forme,thathasalwaysbeenaprerequisite.Iwantmyworktobebeautiful.Iwantittobesmart,butIalsowantittobebeauti-ful.Idon’thavealotofpatiencefor“justsmart,”andsometimesIseeworkthatisjustsmart—andit’snotbeautiful.Sometimesthetypographyisn’tbeautiful,andthecraftisn’tthere.Thatdrivesmenuts.Ithinktypographyshouldbebeautiful;other-wise,youshouldjustbeawriter.

Ifeellikethere’ssomuchmoretobeexplored,butatthesametime,I’mquiteproudofwhatIhavedone.IgetveryemotionalabouttheluckytrajectoryofmycareerandthefactthatI’vebeenaroundsuchinspiringpeople.Icouldnothavebeenmorenourished.Withallofitsupsanddowns,andstrangeness,andshiftsinexpectations,andwhateveritisthatweallgothrough,Idon’tthinkIwouldhavewantedtodoanythinganydifferently.I’mreallyproudofwhatI’vedone.

To be honest, before I knew you as well as I do now, I was intimidated by you.

It’ssoshockingbecauseIthinkIamabsolutelyoneofthemostboundarylesspeopleIknow!Ihaveveryhighexpectationsofmyself,andIwilltellyouthatIamveryproudofwhoIamasahumanbeing.Ihavenoreservationsaboutthat.Whatyouseeiswhatyouget,andIknowthatIhavetremendousgener-osityofspirit.Icanattributethatonsomeleveltomymother;IcanthankPaulaScherforhelpingto




teachmethingslikethat.Isaythistoyou—andI’mnottryingtosoundhumble—butit’sbeyondmethatanyonewouldfindmeintimidatingatall.Ifeelthatifanything,I’minvisiblemostofthetime.


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Milton Glaser

Legendary. Brilliant. Intellectual. Sweetly naïve. These are just some of the qualities attributed over the years to Milton. I use his first name intentionally, but with no disrespect; as with John, Paul, Mick, or Keith, Milton’s name is instantly recognizable.

And he is very much the superstar of graphic design. Yes, Mr. Glaser designed the Dylan poster and the I♥NY icon. Yes, his work as part of Push Pin, WBMG, NewYork magazine, and at his eponymous studio has meaningfully inspired generations of designers and pop-culture devotees. Yet while other great designers have created cool posters, beautiful book covers, and powerful logos, Milton Glaser has actually lifted this age he inhabits. Because of his integrity and his vision, he has enabled us all to walk on higher ground, and it is that for which we should be especially grateful.

Milton has often talked about the confusion many people have about the word “art.” He has suggested that we replace the term with “work,” and proposed the following maxim: “Work that goes beyond its functional intention and moves us in deep and mysterious ways we call great work.”

Milton Glaser is a creator of great work. He is also a great man. What is so unique and precious is that he has achieved his stature honestly and authen-tically, without gimmicks, without hype, and without artifice. His work has a purity and an elegance that is timeless, profound, and dazzling.



My first question is one that I borrowed from you: What’s your first creative memory?

Idon’tknowifIcanidentifythefirst.Mymemoryofthepastisthattherearesomanyareasthatareopaque,andIfeelthattherearesomanyareasthatImadeuplaterinlife.

Why is that?Becauseretrievingthepastisalwaystreacherous.ThestoryofhowIdecidedtobecomeanartististhis:WhenIwasaverylittleboy,acousinofminecametomyhousewithapaperbag.HeaskedmeifIwantedtoseeabird.Ithoughthehadabirdinthebag.Hestuckhishandinthebag,andIrealizedthathehaddrawnabirdonthesideofabagwithapencil.Iwasastonished!Iperceivedthisasbeingmiraculous.Atthatmoment,IdecidedthatwaswhatIwasgoingtodowithmylife.Createmiracles.

Why?Becausehehad,outofpencilandpaper,createdalivingthing.Andinmymemory,itwaswell-drawn.Upuntilthatpointinmylife,IhadneverthoughtaboutdrawinganythingotherthanwhatIcouldillustratesymbolically:smoke,sun,tree.Toactuallyseesomethingthatlookedlikewhatitwasandseesomebodyintheactofmakingitconvincingly—thatmomentbecameidentifiedwithmydecisiontomakethings.Mylifebecameaboutmakingthingsanddrawingthings.

Here’sanothermemory:Iwaseightyearsold,andIhadrheumaticfever.Iwasathomeandinbedforayear.Inacertainsense,theonlythingthatkeptmealivewasthis:Everyday,mymotherwouldbringmeawoodenboardandapoundofmodelingclay,andIwouldcreatealittleuniverseoutofhouses,tanks,warriors.Attheendoftheday,IwouldpoundthemintooblivionandlookforwardtothenextdaywhenIcouldrecreatetheworld.


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SoIknewthatmylifewaslinked.MylifeandmypsychologyandmysenseofselfwerelinkedtomakingthingsandthesatisfactionthatIderivedfrommakingthings.ThefactthatIcouldmaintainmyattentivenessthewholedaytomakingthingswasaverypowerfulstimulusinmylife.

How did you feel at the end of the day when you dismantled your creation?

Thatwasanothergreatpart.DismantlingitmeantIwouldhaveanotherpoundofclaytostartagain.

So there was no sorrow?Quitethecontrary.Thepleasurewasinmakingitanddestroyingit.Ihaveneverthoughtaboutthis,butbasically,Irealizedthatinordertohavetheexperience,IhadtoeliminatewhatIhaddone.

I think that, to some degree, this is part of my character as a designer: To keep moving and not get stuck in my own past. This is what I try very hard to do.

Ithinkatthatmomentinmylife,Ifoundapeculiarpath:TocontinuallydiscardalotofthethingsthatIknewhowtodoinfavoroffindingoutwhatIdidn’t.Ithinkthisisthewayyoustayaliveprofessionally.

Idon’tthinkIlikedthisideaofdestroyingyouruniverseattheendofeverydayinordertostartagain.Butitseemstomethatitisaveryprofoundprinciple.

I think a lot of people collect memory and accomplish-ments and use these things to remind them of what theyhave done in their lives.

Idothat.Ilookbackoccasionally,thoughnotthatoften.ButIhavehadaverypeculiarcareerintheprofession.

You said memory was treacherous. Why?Thinkaboutsomeonewhohasgonebacktowhere

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heoncelivedanddiscoveredthatitwasathirdofthesizehethoughtitwas.Memoryistreacherous;youcan’tdependonit.Itisbasicallyalwaysrecre-atedtoreinforceyouranxietyortomakeyourselflookbetter,butwhateveractuallydidhappenistotallysusceptibletosubjectiveinterpretation.Iabsolutelydon’ttrustmymemory.

How important was financial success when you first started out?

Notatall.Ineverhadthemodeloffinancialsuccessasbeingthereasontowork.WhenIwasatPushPin,noneofthepartnersmadeenoughmoneytoliveon.Ittooktenyearsforustomakeasmuchasajuniorartdirectorinanagency.Weweremaking$65aweek!Butmoneyhasneverbeenamotivat-ingforceinmywork.IamveryhappytohavemadeenoughmoneytoliveaswellasIdo,butIneverthoughtofmoneyasareasontowork.Forme,workwasaboutsurvival.Ihadtoworkinordertohaveanysenseofbeinghuman.IfIwasn’tworkingormakingsomething,Iwasverynervousandunstable.

Why is that?Becauseforwhateverreason,workiswhatIdo.Irecentlyreadastudyofhappiness.Thosepeoplewhoaremosthappyarethosewhoaremostfullyengagedintheirwork,whateverthatworkhappenstobe.Soitisn’tasurprisetomethatsomuchofmysatisfactionandhappinessinlifecomesoutofmyrelationshiptomywork.AndIstillhavethefeelingthatIhaveenormousopportunitiesandpossibili-ties.Thereisalwayssomuchmoretounderstandaboutthenatureofcommunicatinganddesignandcolor.Youreachapointinyourlifewhenyourealizethatyouknownothingaboutcolororshape!

Or you don’t know anything about anything!Andthatisagreatfeeling:whenyoufeelthepossibilityoflearning.It’saterriblefeelingtofeel


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youcan’tlearnorhavereachedtheendofyourpotential.

I think it’s interesting that you weren’t concerned about survival or making a living—that doing the work was more important than security.

Well,somebodysaid—andit’soneoftheprinciplesoftheNewAge,butIalsothinkit’strue—thatifyouperceivetheuniverseasbeingauniverseofabundance,thenitwillbe.Ifyouthinkoftheuni-verseasoneofscarcity,thenitwillbe.AndIneverthoughtoftheuniverseasoneofscarcity.Ialwaysthoughtthattherewasenoughofeverythingtogoaround—thatthereareenoughideasintheuniverseandenoughnourishment.

AlotofpeopleIknowthinktheuniverseisoneofscarcity,andiftheydon’tgetenoughmoneyorenoughfame,it’sbecausethereisn’tenoughtogoaround.Ithinkthereismorethanenoughofeverythingtogoaround.Iftheworldcouldshiftthisconsciousness,thesenseofabundancewouldbeoverwhelming.

It’sliketheoldstoryofprimitivesocieties:Whenthesegroupsarelivingattheedgeofsur-vival,everyoneeats,andthereisenoughfoodforeveryone.Assoonasthereisasurplus—thisisabsolutelycharacteristicofprimitivetribesandeverythingelse—peoplestartstarving.Becauseassoonasthereissurplus,peoplebegintohorde.Itisasimpleproposition,butalmostuniversallytruefromananthropologicalpointofview—withsurplus,comesstarvation.

Over the years, I’ve talked with people about your ethical critique, “12 Steps on the Graphic Designer’s Road to Hell.” One of the comments that I hear from young designers is that when you can’t pay your rent, it’s a lot easier to go to Step 3 [“Designingacrestforanewvineyardtosuggestthatithasbeeninbusi-nessforalongtime”] or Step 4 [“Designingajacket




forabookwhosesexualcontentyoufindpersonallyrepellent”]. But if you’re in a position where you’re well-known and financially secure, then you don’t have to worry about survival.

As a designer, you’ve reached a point in your life where you have an innate sense of “No matter what happens, I will survive.” Some people have that innate sense of survival without being at a point where they are well-known and financially secure, and other people I know are well-known and financially secure, but don’t have even a smidgen of innate security.

Itisafascinatingconundrum.Anotherwayit’sputveryoftenisthis:Doyouperceiveyouliveyourlifethroughloveorfear?Theyareverydifferentmanifestations.MyfavoritequoteisbytheEnglishnovelistIrisMurdoch.Shesaid,“Loveistheverydifficultunderstandingthatsomethingotherthanyourselfisreal.”Iliketheideathatallthatloveis,isacknowledginganother’sreality.

Acknowledgingthattheworldexists,andthatyouarenottheonlyparticipantinit,isapro-foundstep.Theimpulsetowardsnarcissismorself-interestissoprofound,particularlywhenyouhaveaworryofinjuryorfear.It’sveryhardtomovebeyondtheideathatthereisnotenoughtogoaround,tomovebeyondthatsenseof“Ibettergetminebeforeanybodyelsetakesitawayfromme.”

You started your career with a strong sense of “work first, and survival will come.” What advice would you give to students who are just graduating?

Ioftensaythatthemostimportantthinginthosefirsttenyearsoutofschoolisnottotakeajobthatwilldetermineyourentirelife—whichhappenstoalotofpeople.Theystartworkingforamagazineandtheystartbyassisting,andthentheybecomeajuniorartdirector,andthenanartdirector,andtenyearslater,they’remarriedandhavechildren.Andthentheoptiontochangecoursehasbeenreducedtoalmostnothing.Soyouhavetobecareful.One


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ofthegreatthingsatPushPinwasthatwedidnotearnalotofmoney,anditdidnotimproveourlivingconditions.Onceyourlivingconditionisimproved,it’sveryhardtomovebackfromit.

When you’re working on a project, how do you know when you’ve created something that’s good or successful?

Well,rememberthatIhavebeendoingthisforwelloverahalfacentury.Thisisnotanamateureffortonmypart!

Foronething—andhereyoucanusemem-ory—youcanlookattheworkyou’vedoneinthepastandgaugeitseffectiveness,itspower,anditsgrace.Butyouhavetobetough-minded.Youmustbeabletoself-evaluate.Youhavetobeverytoughaboutyourworkinordertogetanywhere.Likeeverythingelse,theissuesurroundsnarcissismandself-protection.Youjusthavetobeabletolookandbeabletoassesswhatisnotverygoodornotasgoodasyouhoped.WhatIalsofindinterestingisthatasyouprogressinthisfield—asopposedtomostotherfields—therearesomethingsyoucan’tdoanymore.Ican’tdothethingsIwasabletodo30yearsago.

For example?Certainkindsofdrawingandcertainwaysofputtingthingstogetherthataremorephysicallydemanding.Andmymindhaschanged,too.Myideashavechanged.AsCharlesOlsonsaidinthepoem,“Maximus,tohimself,”“Ihavehadtolearnthesimplestthingslast.”Overthelastcoupleofyears,Ihavebeenlearningaboutthosesimplethings.TheworkhascircledfromamodernisteducationinhighschoolandatCooperUnion,thenarepudiationofmodernismandsimplicity,andnowareturntotheideathatyoucanbepower-ful,direct,andsimple.Idon’thaveanideologicalstanceaboutcomplexityandsimplicity.




Whenachefistested,theyaskhimtocookanomelet.It’saverysimpletest,nothowtomakeacomplexstewusingtruffles.Aperfectomeletin-volvesknowinghowmuchairtogetintotheeggs,howmuchheattoapplytothepan,andhowtoturnitovercleanly.Itturnsouttobeaveryprofoundtest.Yourealizethatthestandardcanbereducedtoverysimpleacts.Butthesehavetobeperfectlypro-duced.Atthispointinmylife,IammostinterestedinnotrepeatingwhatIalreadyknow.IstillhopetofindthingsthatIdon’tknowandcanstrugglewith.

Ihadagoodfriendwhowasaverygooddesignerandwasveryindebtedtotheideasofmoney,success,andtherewardsofaccomplish-ment.Andthen,likeeverybody,hebegantofade,andhewassobitteraboutthefactthattheworldwasnolongercomingtohimforwhathehaddoneallhislife.Andhebecameuninterestedinworkinganymore.Helostallhisappetitefordoingthings.AndIrealizedthatthefocusofhislifewasabouttheconsequencesofhisworkratherthantheworkitself.AndIthinkthatisakindofsadness.Becauseitleavesyouwithnothing.Becauseeventually—particularlyinanindustrythatdealssomuchwithfashion—youaregoingtobeoutoffavorsomeday.

So what do you attribute your longevity to?Idon’tknow.JuststayingatthedeskturningouttheworkandtryingtodoitaswellasIcan.Iamalsoaverypersistentman:astubborn,persistentman.Andtherewardisstillthesamereward:doingthingsthathavequality,thatarestillpowerful,andthatreachpeople.And,ofcourse,thesheerjoyofdoingit.Ilovecomingintomyofficeandworking.

Tell me about the peaks and valleys in your career.IthinkthattheworstperiodofmylifewasthefirstyearofdoingNew York.Ididnotknowhowtodoit!Iwasproducinghorrible,horriblemagazinesweekafterweek.Theeditorialteamdidn’tknowwhat


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theyweredoing,either.Weknewhowweweregoingtodothefirstissue,andafterthat,weweresurprisedthattherewasgoingtobeasecondone,whichwasdueattheprintersafewdayslater.Doingaweeklyistough.Andpriortothatexperi-ence,Ihadneverreallybeenanartdirectoratamagazine.Ihaddonealotofmagazinework,butneverart-directed.

Wegotofftoashakystart.AndIdidalotofbad,badwork,anditwaspublic.Everyweek,peoplewouldsay,“Ohboy,haveyoueverseensuchanugly—...”Forayear,itwasveryembarrassing.Itwasveryhardtofixwhileweweremovingsofast.Eventually,Ibeganfiguringitallout,andthemagazinefounditsvoice.

Are you ever insecure about anything now?Insecure?Whatistheretofeelsecureabout?Thereisnosecurityintheworld,orinlife.Idon’tmindlivingwithsomeambiguityandrealizingthateventually,everythingchanges.Itendtobesome-bodywhowantsrecurrenceinlife.ItseemsthateverythingIhaveeverdone,Ihavebeendoingfor50years.Ihavebeenworkinginthisbuildingwheremyofficeissince1965.Ihavebeenmarriedfor50years.Ihavebeenteachingforabout48years.

SoIguessthereisacertainsecuritythatIhavealwayssoughtbymakingthingsrecur.Youhavecertainthingsinyourlifethatyoudoallyourlife.Idon’tthinkI’vebeenveryadventurousinmylife.

Is there anything you would have liked to have done or still hope to do?

Nothing.

How would you define “adventurous”?Beingphysicallyadventurous—doingthingslikesnorkelingandwater-skiingandputtingmyselfatrisk.




My adventure has all been in my mind. The great adventure has been thinking. I love to think about things. I think that the lack of drama in my life has produced a platform for me to be fundamentally adventurous in my thinking.

Ihaveveryfew“interests.”Ihavenotbeentothemoviesin12years.Ilistentomusicathome,butIdon’tgotoconcerts.Ijustreadandwork.That’sallIdo.AndIteach.

AndIfinditallthrilling.Ilovetoteach,Ilovetheexperienceofteaching.Ilovetheresponsepeoplehavetoteaching.AndIlovefeelingusefulinteaching.AndIthinkIhavebecomeagoodteacherbyunderstandingthatwhatyouteachiswhatyouare.Youdon’tteachbytellingpeoplethings.

Can you elaborate on that?[Giorgio]Morandiwasoneofmyfirstgreatteach-ers.WenevertalkedaboutartduringtheyearsIwasthereinItaly.HeneversuggestedwhatIshoulddowithmyart.Nothing.ButIsawhisdevotiontohisworkandhowhewaswillingtoteachahighschool–levelclassinrudimentaryetching,andthen,afterclass,hewouldpromptlyleaveandspendtherestofthedaypainting.Hewastotallydevotedtohiswork.

Heusedtotellme,“Ifyouwanttopaintlike—insertfavoritepainter—youmustputinyourtime.”Hisideaofstandingforsomething,ofhavingastanceinlifethatisimmediatelyconveyedtooth-ers,wastotallyunderstood.Theminutehewouldwalkinaroom,wegotit.Thereisanelementofthatwhichisdidactic,buthewasalwaysconveyingideasevenwhenhewasn’t“teaching”perse.

Ibelievethatyouconveyyourideasbytheauthenticityofyourbeing.Notbygliblytellingsomeonewhattodoorhowtodoit.Ibelievethatthisiswhysomuchteachingisineffective.Peoplearenotwhattheyteach,andthestudents


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immediatelyknowit.Goodteachingismerelyhavinganencounterwithsomeonewhohasanideaofwhatlifeisthatyouadmireandwanttoemulate.

What do you think you stand for?IthinkIstandforanattempttothinkresponsiblyaboutthepracticeofdesignintermsofitseffectsonsociety.Idon’tsaythatself-righteously.Ibelievethatyouhavetothinkabouttheconsequencesofwhatyoudo.Itrytobeconsciousaboutthis,andraisetheissuewhereverandwheneverIcan.IalsothinkIstandforanopennessaboutwhatthedesignprofessioncanbe,andhowthingsbeyondtheprac-ticeaffectandmodifybothsocietyandthewaywethinkaboutdesign.

You started the “Designism” movement, which stresses designers’ work for social change. Do you feel that we are not doing enough?

Iwouldn’tcharacterizedesignersasbeingdiffer-entfromeverybodyelseintheuniverse.Ithink,tosomedegree,everybodysuffersfromsimilarissues.Ithinkeverybodyshouldbemoregenerousandmoreconcernedabouttheeffecttheyhaveontheworld.Beingadesignerisalsoaboutbeingagoodcitizen.Whatdoesitmeantobeagoodcitizen?Itmeanscaringaboutwhat’sgoingonandtakingarole.Designershavetheuniqueopportunitytohaveadifferentrolethananaveragepersonwhodoesn’thaveaccesstoproductionandmanufacturinginthesamephysicalwayasadesignerdoes.Sothereismoreopportunityandmoreresponsibility.

Therealityofbeingintheworldandcaringaboutthatworldisultimatelyinourownself-interest.Whenyoucreateacompetitiveandacri-moniousenvironment,yousuffer.Ifyouplaythatgame,thenyouhavetopaytheconsequencesonapersonallevel.



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Do you think the part of the brain that seeks commu-nity is awakened by communal brand experiences like MySpace, YouTube, or the iPod?

Yes.Butthereisadarksidetothis.Peopledevelopcommunitiesthatdefinethemselvesandisolatethemfromothers.Thisleadstoakindofestrange-mentfromeveryoneelse.Andbeforeyouknowit,there’saclassorstatuswar,orsomeothersensethatwe’remoreimportantbecauseofourdesires,orasenseofbettermentbecausewehavegoodtaste,orbecauseweearnmoremoney.Thatcollectiveidentificationquicklyturnsintoawayofexcludingothersfromhumanity.Wehavetobesocautiousofthis.Itisanendlesscycleofhumanhistory.Acollectiveconsciousnessdevelopswithinatribe,andeveryoneoutsidebecomesworthless—it’saprevailingpatterninhumanity.

Did you ever have a vision that this would be the life you would be leading?

ThisistheonlylifeIcouldhaveimaginedformyself.Sincethatdaywiththepaperbag,Ihavenotdeviated.Iwantedtospendeverydayofmylifemakingsomething,andthatisallIhaveeverdone.Ithasbeenatotallyunwaveringpath.


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paula scher

Manhattan’s visual canvas is defined by an electric, exhilarating collage, whether in the sensory overload of 42nd Street’s LED screens, the handmade signs painted for local businesses, or the advertisements towering over the cityscape.

Paula Scher’s compositions have made an unmistakable imprint on the visual symphony of New York and American popular culture. Her work for arts organizations such as The Public Theater showcase her ability to capture the vitality of her subject mat-ter with heady assemblages of type and image. Her record covers for Atlantic and CBS Records from the ’70s remain classics of the genre, their intelligence and wit poignant to this day.

Paula joined Pentagram as partner in 1991, and she has since completed projects including a redesign of the Citibank identity, show openers for PBS, book design for Jon Stewart’s America, and environmental signage for a host of clients. She is perhaps best known for her use of type, but she tells me that it wasn’t until after college that she came to understand typography. “I didn’t seek it,” she explains. “It found me.”

Paula defines design as “the art of planning.” This description seems particularly apt, as her design and typographic explorations have increasingly moved from the two-dimensional page to the three-dimensional scale of architecture and buildings. If only we could enjoy the visceral delights of living in a city planned and composed entirely by Paula Scher.


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What was your first creative memory?Imadeamuralinsixthgrade.Itwasatransporta-tionmural.Irememberitbecauseitearnedmesomepraise,thoughI’msureIdidalotofthingsbeforesixthgrade.Butatthattime,Igottopaintatransportationmuralshowingahighwaywithcarsonit.Imadethehighwaywiththetrafficlanes“backwards,”andmyteachersaid,“Oh,itcanbeanEnglishhighway.”

When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Asinger,dancer,pianoplayer,andbarebackrider—Iwantedtoperform.

I have a theory that graphic designers secretly wish they were rock stars. When did you know you wanted to be a graphic designer?

WhenIwenttocollege,Ididn’tknowwhatgraphicdesignwas.Itwasn’tuntilmyjunioryearthatIdiscoveredit.AndIthinkIwantedtostudydesignbecausetheschoolIwenttotaughtaveryBasel-orientedbasicgraphicdesigncourse,whichwas“whiteonwhite”:takingpiecesofwhitepaperandlayingthemovereachother.ButIwasverysloppy;Iwashorribleatit.Iwasterribleatanythingthatinvolvedrubbercementandrubbercementpick-up.ThesewerethingsIjustcouldn’taccomplish.Iwenttothedesigndepartmenttobeanillustrator,notadesigner,becauseIdidn’tthinkIhadtheskillstobeadesigner,whereasillustrationseemedtobemoreexpressive.

Did you have aspirations to be an illustrator or designer specifically, or was that something that happened more serendipitously? Was it something you knew you were going to do?

IalwaysknewIwasgoingtomakethings.Iwascompelledtomakethings.Iwantedtomake


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wonderfulthings,thingsthatotherpeopleliked,thingsthatwereimportantandmattered.IwantedtodothisbecauseIlikedtheactofdoingit,andIwantedthatformofapproval,andsoIwouldhaveawayofexpressingmyself.

Atfirst,whenIwasatcollege,Ireallydidn’tunderstandtypographyatall.Iactuallylearneditonthejob;Ididn’tlearnitincollege.Ididn’tseekit.Itfoundme.AtonepointIhadateacherwhogavemesomevery,verycriticaladvice.Hetoldmetofindonethingyoucando.Andonlydothat.Bethebestatit,nomatterhownarrowitis.Andgetridofallthestuffyoudon’tdowell.AndIfoundthattobeanamazingpieceofadvice.Igobacktoitallthetime.

How would you define the term “graphic design”?Iwouldstartfirstwiththeterm“design.”Ifyoulookitupinthedictionary,itsays,“aplan.”AndIseedesignastheartofplanning.There’sanimpli-cationingraphicdesignthatitinvolvesbothplan-ningandsomethinggraphic,somethingproduced,somethingthatmayhavebreadthorhavewordsorimagesattached,orhavesomeimpact.It’sanebu-lousdescriptionofdesign.IactuallyprefertosayI’mavisualplanner.

Do you find that people understand what you mean when you say that?

No.Theydon’tunderstanduntiltheyseeit.Ibelievethatpeoplearefarmoreawareoftheimpactorimportofdesignthantheyrealize,thoughtheydon’tknowhowtodescribeit.IrecentlyjoinedtheArtCommissionoftheCityofNewYork.Theycreatedaseatforagraphicdesigner,whichtheyneverhadincludedbefore.Theydiditbecausetheywereconfrontedwithsomanysignsystemsthattheyhadtodealwith—andenvironmentalprojectsthathad

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goneawry—thattheyrealizedtheyneededagraphicdesigner’sexpertise.

Whensomethinglikethishappens,youknowthatdesignhasreachedabroaderaudienceandunderstanding.ServingwiththeCommis-sionhasbeenterrific.There’sanartist,architect,engineer,andanarthistorian,andtherearetwoseatsfromtheMetropolitanMuseumandtheBrooklynMuseum.It’sourresponsibilitytosignoffoneverybuildingtobebuiltinNewYorkCitythatreceivespublicfunding.IthastogothroughtheArtCommission.It’stotallyfascinating.

Do you consider yourself to be successful?Itdependsonhowyoudefinesuccess.

How do you define success?IthinkI’msuccessfulincertainways.IthinkthatI’mluckyinthatIlikewhatIdo,andIgettodoit.ThatisafactorinhowIseemyselfassuccessful.

I consider the fact that I have been able to continue to grow a very important part of how I perceive success. To me, success is not about money, it’s about what I design. If I get up every day with the optimism that I have the capacity for growth, then that’s success for me.

Do you consider yourself a confident person?WhenIwasyoung,Iwasnotaconfidentperson,butIpresentedmyselfasifIwas.Iwascocky,andIhadacertainkindofattitudeandpanachethatIrolledoutwhenIneededit.Butitwasapieceofarmorandahouseofcards.After25yearsofworking,IthinkI’vegottenmuchmoreconfident.Iammorecomfortableinmyownskin.Idon’tlookaroundsomuchforapproval.Ifindmyselfcomfort-ableenoughtobemyself.


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How would you describe yourself ?Short.Little.Perfectlyformed.Littlepersonwithabigmouth.

How would your husband describe you?Probablyexactlythesame.

How would Michael Bierut describe you?Thesame.

Do you have a process that you use when you’re designing? A way that you initiate a project, a way that you work through a problem?

It’salittledifficulttosaywhatIdofirst.Idon’tdoanythinginanyparticularorder.There’sacertainamountofintuitivethinkingthatgoesintoevery-thing.It’ssohardtodescribehowthingshappenintuitively.Icandescribeitasacomputerandaslotmachine.Ihaveapileofstuffinmybrain,apileofstufffromallthebooksI’vereadandallthemoviesI’veseen.EverypieceofartworkI’veeverlookedat.Everyconversationthat’sinspiredme,everypieceofstreetartI’veseenalongtheway.AnythingI’vepurchased,rejected,loved,hated.It’sallinthere.It’sallononesideofthebrain.

Andontheothersideofthebrainisaspecificbriefthatcomesfrommyunderstandingoftheprojectandsays,okay,thissolutionismadeupofA,B,C,andD.Andifyoupullthehandleontheslotmachine,theysortofrunaroundinacircle,andwhatyouhopeisthatthosethreecherrieslineup,andthecashcomesout.

When you’re thinking this way, is it something you’re doing alone, or with a lot of other people?

Icouldbedoingitrightnow.I’mdoingitrighthere.Mydayisverypacked,andit’sfilledwithmanyinterruptions.I’mthinkingaboutthebriefwhileI’minanopenspacewithtonsofpeople,

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intheoffice,withtelephones,mystaff,whilegossip-ingwithmypartners,whilethinkingaboutwhat’sgoingonintheworld,duringwhatever’sgoingonatthatmoment—plusthebrief.

Iamconsciousofresolvingthebrief,butIdon’tthinkaboutittoohard.Iallowthesubcon-sciouspartofmybraintowork.That’stheaccumu-lationofmywholelife.Thatiswhat’sgoingonintheothersideofmybrain,tryingtoalignwiththisverylogicalbrief.

AndI’mallowingthattoflowfreely,sothatthecherriescanlineupintheslotmachine.Idon’tknowwhenthat’sgoingtohappen.I’vehadperiodsoftimewhenthecherriesneverlineup,andthat’sscary,becausethenyouhavetorelyontricksyoualreadyhaveupyoursleeve—thetricksinyourknowledgefromotherjobs.Andveryoftenyourelyonthis.

Butmostlywhatyouwanttodoisinvent.Andtoinvent,youhavetotaketheoddandthestrangecombinationoftheyearsofknowledgeandexperi-enceononesideofthebrain,andontheotherside,thenecessityforthebrieftomakesense.Andyou’redrawingfromthatknowledgetomakeananalogyandtofindawaytosolveaproblem,tofindameansofmovingforward—inanewway—thingsyou’vealreadydone.

Whenyousucceed,it’sfantastic.Itdoesn’talwayshappen.Buteverysooften,youtakeabunchofstufffromonesideofyourhead,andaverylogi-callistofstufffromtheotherside,andthroughthatosmosisyou’refindinganewwaytolookataproblemandresolveasituation.

How are you able to evaluate your own success at solving a problem?

It’sveryhard.IknowwhenImakeabreakthrough.There’samomentof“Eureka!”Andthatcomesfromknowingwhatpreviouslyexistedinthatareaorarenaandpushingitforward.Ifit’samagazine,


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there’sahistoryofmagazines;ifit’sanidentity,there’sahistoryofidentities.Ifit’sanidentityforacertaintypeofbusiness,there’sahistoryofidentitiesforthatcertaintypeofbusiness.

Generally, there’s a paradigm of what things look like in any arena. What you want to be able to do is find a new way to stretch that paradigm forward, to break its own mold.

Sometimestodothat,youbor-rowfromanotherarea.That’swhyIliketoworkonalldifferenttypesofprojects.

Rightnow,I’mdesigningabuildingasauser’smanual.I’mtakingaformofprintandmarryingittoathree-dimensionalsystem.Thentheknowledge“overthere”informssomethingnew“overhere.”Thatiswhenit’spossibletomakeabreakthrough.AndthatisreallywhatIwantoutofdesign.Iwanttocreateunexpectedthingssetinawaythatmakeslogicalsense.Iwanttoreinterprethowthingscanbeputtogether.Thischangestheexpectationsofwhatispossible.

What do you do when you experience the feeling of “eureka” about a design solution and your client doesn’t? How are you able to convince them to see things your way?

Idothatinavarietyofways,andI’mnotalwayssuccessful.Thebestwaytobesuccessfulwiththisistobedoingthejobforfree.Veryoften,Idoalotofworkfornonprofitorganizations.Iliterallydonatethework—sothatIcanmakeabreakthrough.IfI’mdoingajobforfree,they’renotchallengingme,they’reacceptingwhatIcreate.Iftheypayme,theyhavearighttoparticipate.

Occasionally,wemakeabreakthroughwithaverywell-payingclient.Withoneparticularclient,ImadeapresentationbeforeIshowedanyworkandlogicallyexplainedwhytheyhadtodowhatIwaspresenting.Iprovedmythesisbeforepresenting

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creativesolutions.I’vedonethatanumberoftimes,andI’mgettingbetteratit.It’salotofwork,butI’vebeentryingtodothismoreandmore.IknowIhaveatendencytojumptoananswerwithouttakingthetimetoexpressthelogicalsteps.

BackwhenIwasinhighschool,Itookgeom-etry.Intheclass,weweretaughttowriteatheoremtoshowhowwegottoananswer.ButIjustrushedandwrotetheanswer.Idon’tknowwhyorhowIknewtheanswer,Ijustdid.Icouldn’texplainit,andmyteacherinsistedthatIproveitout.Thistypeofproofisastruggleforme.ButslowlyI’vebeengettingbetteratexplainingtopeoplewhy“this”istheanswer.

Irecentlydidajob,andmyclientswantedmetotweaksomething.Ithoughtitwasanawfulidea,andIdidn’twanttodoit.TheycamebackandaskedmetotellthemwhyIthoughtitwassoawful,andwhytheyshouldn’tmakethechange.ImadeaveryseriouspresentationarticulatingwhyIthoughtwhattheywantedtodowassobad,andwhyitwassooff-target.Itwasverypersuasive.Afterthepresentation,theyrealizedhowpoortheideawas.SoI’mgettingbetteratthis.Butthatdoesn’tmakeiteasy.

Would you say your work is more intuitive or intellectual?Ithinkit’sboth.Actually,thisiswhatIthinkmyhusbandwouldsayaboutme:thatI’memotionalandanalyticalatthesametime.

So how do you know when a project is done? How do you know when you’re finished?

Thatishard.SometimesI’mdonebecauseIrunoutoftime.That’sasgoodawayasany.I’vedoneverygoodthingsthatway.Sometimesadeadlinegetsyoutostop.Ilovedeadlines.Sometimesaprojectisdonebecauseyou’vedonetoomuchandyou’vemadeitworse.Andyouhavetostopandgoback.


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Sometimesyou’reneverdone.ButIthinkthatit’sdangeroustohaveanykindofsatisfaction.Youalwayshavetobestrivingtoimproveonthenextproject.Thenextprojecthastobewhatyou’reaspiringfor,notwhatyou’vejustcompleted—you’vealreadydonethat.

When you look at the work you’ve created, in the last five or ten years, do you feel that it’s good enough, or do you feel that it’s too soon to tell?

It’snotaquestionofjustlookingatthework;it’saquestionofunderstandingwhereIwaswhenIdidthework,thecontextofwhenIdidit,andwhereIamnow.Ifindthatyouhavetocontinuallyrenew,thatgrowthiswhatmatters.Youcan’tdothesamethingforfiveyears.Youhavetogetridofit.Itdoesn’tmatteranymore.Justletitgo,evenifit’syoursignature.Evenifeverybodyexpectsyoutodoit.Trytofindanotherwaytowalk.It’seasytosayintheory,buthardertodoinpractice.

Forme,that’swhythebreadth,thecore,matters.BecausewhenIchangewhatI’mdoingfromeditorialpackagingtoenvironmentaldesigntoidentitytomotiongraphicstosomeformofWebwork—aslongasIcandothat—it’sgoingtotakemyworkinanotherdirection.ParticularlybecauseI’vebeenpracticingfor25years,Ihavetokeepwalkingforward.Ican’tlookatthepastandworryaboutwhetherit’sgoodorbad.It’scriticalformetomoveontothenextproject,todiscoverthenextthing.

How do you find those new things?Youneedtobelogical.Youhavetogooutandgetthekindofprojectsthatallowthistohappenforyou.Ipayoverhead.Imaintainastaff.I’mnotworkinginsomeivorytowerwhereIgettocreateworkformyself.I’mworkingintherealword.TheprojectsdictatewhenIcangototheextreme,and,toadegree,whenIcaninvent.

p A u L A s C H e r



Are you able to hold on to success and happiness, or are they fleeting experience?

Idon’tevenknowthatIfeelit.HalfthetimeIcan’tevenbelieveit.

Do you worry a lot?Iworryaboutmyfuture.

In what way?I’m58yearsold;Idon’tknowhowlongIcankeepitgoing.

What do you do when you need a role model? Where do you look for inspiration? I’m not talking about movies or books, I’m talking about people.

Peopleinspirationishard.Thereareafewwomenwhohaveachievedanenormousamount.Therearen’talotofthem.Youknow,StefanSagmeistertoldmethatnoonehasabreakthroughintheirfifties.ButIdid.Sonowhesaysnoone’shadabreakthroughintheirsixties.

So he’s setting your bar. Are you afraid of anything?Beingoverthehill.

Do you really think that will happen? I mean, honestly?It’sinevitable;itwillhappensoonerorlater.Youcan’tdefythatforever.

What do you think is the secret to your staying power?Idon’tthinkIhaveaverybigopinionofmyself.

You’re just driven? Trying to prove yourself ?Ifyouthinkyou’reonlyasgoodasyourlastjob—whichIdo—there’smoretobedone.IknowwhatIdidtoday.Iknowexactlywhatlevelit’sat,andthereareallkindsofproblemsandcompromisesthatImustnegotiate.Thingsthathavetobeheldonto,thingsthathavetobeprotectedtomakesomethingmoveforward.Andit’svery,very,very


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hardwork.Itdoesn’thaveanythingtodowithfame.Ithastodowithdoingiteveryday.

Thatisallthatmatters—nothingelsematters.Ibelievethatweallwanttoleavesomethingbehindthatisreally,trulyterrific.Andwehavethisfiniteamountoftimetoaccomplishit.Everythingelseisunimportant.Ilikethatyou’redoingthisbookbecausewhatmotivatesitisareallyimportantdis-cussionaboutaccomplishmentsingraphicdesign.Theaccoutrements,andtheawards,andmypictureinabookdon’tmatter.Whatmattersisthenextproject.Ifyou’resittingbackandsaying,“Gee,thatwaswonderful,”thatisdeath.You’rekillingyour-self.Youcan’tdothat.Youcan’tdothattoyourself.

If you could fantasize for a minute, it’s five years from now. We’re that much closer to our imminent demise. How do you see yourself, your life? Are you painting, are you still designing? Are you still at Pentagram? What are you doing?

Iamnotreallysure.I’mfacingthatrightnow,andIamreally,totallyconfused.WhatIthinkisterrificisthatIactuallyhavethepossibilitytopaintfull-time.Iwoulddoit.Ontheotherhand,whenfacedwiththechoice,Iwouldn’twanttogiveupdesigningbecauseIreallylovedesign.Ireallylovedesigning.IguessI’maveryluckywoman.

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stefan sagmeister

Stefan Sagmeister and I nearly got arrested together. While working on a conceptual design project utiliz-ing my office in the Empire State Building, Stefan dangled out of my 17th-floor window with a sign that simply read, “OVER.” It never occurred to me that the crowd below would think that the sign read, “IT’S OVER” and was the parting message of a jumper. When hordes of police and press showed up, accompanied by every fire truck and ambulance in the vicinity, it dawned on me that the whole of Manhattan was watching the flawless execution of a true master at work.

That’s the thing about Stefan Sagmeister. He has the unique ability to turn life into art. He makes you look, and then, when you take it all in, he makes you wonder why it took you so long to notice what he’s known all along—that “you can have an art experi-ence in front of a Rembrandt . . . or in front of a piece of graphic design.”

Stefan is the closest thing the design field has to both a conceptual fine artist and a rock star. Yet even with all of the accolades and fanfare, Stefan is humble, down-to-earth, and incredibly generous with his time. He and I conducted this dialogue both by e-mail and in person. The result makes for an inter-view that is equal parts insight, inspiration, and performance art.



What was your first creative memory?WhenIwaseight,Irememberhavingtopaintvari-ousblueandyellowwatercolorsonboards,thensubsequentlycuttingtheboardsupintotinylittlesquares,andpastingthesetoformanillustrationofanexplodingyellowballooninabluebathtub.Theentireconcoctionwasassignedbyourmini-malistartteacher,HerrPfitzer.Minewasdeemednotverygood.

When you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up?

ACatholicpriest.

I hear you’re thinking about taking another year off without clients. What made you decide to do this in the first place?

Iwouldsaytherewerenumerousreasons.Beingboredwasprobablythesimplestone;Iwassimplybored.We’dbeeninthemusicbusinessforsevenyears,andIwasboredwiththeprocessofdesign-ingCDcoversandvisualizingmusic.Actually,Iwasmorefrustratedwiththefactthatwehadthreeclientsoneveryjob:therecordlabel,themanage-ment,andtheband.Andwewereoftenthelittleballthatwasthrownbetweenthosethreebigentities.Also,EdFellahadrecentlyvisitedthestudio,andIwasveryimpressedwithhisexperimentaltypo-graphysketchbooks,whathereferstoas“ExitArt.”IalsothinkTiborKalman’sdeathhadsomethingtodowithit.

In what way?Itwasareminderofwhatashorttimewehavehere,andhowimportantitistodotheworkthatyoufeelyoushoulddo.Inpreviousyears,IhadworkedinHongKongandViennaandNewYorkandinbetweenthosevariouscities;Ialwayshadalittletimebeforestartinganewjob.ThisallowedmetoconstantlyrethinkandchallengewhatIwasdoing.


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Aftersevenyearsatthestudio,IknewIstilllovedNewYorkverymuchandthatIhadnorealreasontomoveanywhereelse.ButIwantedtocreatealittleartificialgaptoallowforreconsideringwhatIwasdoing.IalsorealizedIwashavinglessandlessfunintheoffice,andknewIhadtodosomethingaboutthat;Iknewifmyhappinessinthestudiowentaway,everythingwouldgodownthedrain.IthasbeenalmostsixyearssinceI’vebeenbacktowork.Inowhaveafairlygoodperspectiveaboutwhetherornotthiswasworthwhile.AndIwouldsayveryenthusiastically,yes,itwasworthwhile.

Were there any moments during this year off when you were worried about not being able to make a living when you came back?

DuringtheyearafterImadethedecision,Ididn’tworryverymuch,becauseIhadalreadymadethedecision.Butbefore,verymuchso.IthoughtthatIwouldbeforgotteninasecond.Iworriedthatallofmyclientsmightleaveandnotcomeback,andIwouldhavetostartupalloveragain.ButIalsothoughtitmightbeaninterestingthingformetostartupalloveragain.

What was the most important thing you learned in that year?

IthinktherewerenumerousthingsIlearned.IrealizedthattheangerIsometimeshadtowardclientswasnotnecessarilyabouttheclients.Itwaswithinme.WhenIdidn’thaveclientstotendto,Iwasjustasangry,ornotangry,asIwasbefore.OneofthethingsIrealizedthatyearwasthattherewasacertainamountofangerinmethatwasfairlyun-client-related.

What makes you angry?Disorganization.Peoplewhoarenotinterestedinwhatthey’redoing.ButIdon’tthinkthatI’mangrierthananyotherperson.Ithinkthereisa

s T e F A n s A G M e i s T e r



certainamountofangerineveryhumanbeing.Andalsohappiness.IspoketoDannyGilbertaboutthis.HeisapsychologistfromHarvardwhohasdonealotofresearchonhappiness.Allhisstudiesshowthatoutsideeventshavesurprisinglylittletodowithourhappiness.Hesaidthatwithafewexceptions—likethedeathofachild—thereisalmostnothingthathappensinourlivesthathasaprofoundimpactonourlivessixmonthsaftertheevent.IalsothinkIansweredanimportantquestionformyselfthatyear.

What do you mean?Intheverybeginningoftheyear,IthoughtthatImightratherbeamoviedirectorthanagraphicdesigner.Forme,thisseemedlikeanintriguingoptiontopursue.Havingbeensomewhatclosetothemovieindustry—directingamusicvideoforLouReedandhavinganumberoffriendswhoareinthebusiness—Iwasnotverynaïveaboutdoingsome-thinglikethis.Ifigureditwouldlikelybeaten-yearprocessuntilIcouldhopetohavemadesomethingIwouldbehappywith.Istartedtomapouthowthosetenyearswouldlook:WhatIwoulddo;howIwouldlearn;whichschoolIcouldgoto;andhowIcouldmakeithappenfinancially.

AsintriguingasIfoundtheprocess,IcouldnothelpbutwonderwhatwouldhappenifIwentthroughthisprocess—thislearningofanewlan-guage—andaftertenyears,Ihadnothingtosayinit?ThenitoccurredtomethatitmightbesmarterifIstuckwiththelanguageIalreadyknewandtriedtoreallysaysomethingwithit.Irememberwritingthisdowninmydiary,andIchallengedmyselftotrythis.Andthewholeseries“ThingsI’veLearnedinMyLifeSoFar”cameoutofthisprocess.

It seems to me that you’re the kind of person who could succeed at anything, if you put your mind to it. Do you really doubt that you could have been


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successful as a filmmaker if you chose to pursue it with all of your heart?

I’llneverknowuntilIputtenyearsintoit.ButIthinkI’vefoundwhatIwanttodoindesign.Justyesterday,IreadanarticleinaveryoldissueofThe New YorkeraboutanIndianman.Hewasspeakingaboutkarmaandwhatitisliketofindoutwhatyouarereallyputonthisearthtodo.Forme,themixofwhatwedealwithasdesigners—themixofwords,images,andmessages—thisiswhatIwasmeanttodo.

I like the fact that design is audiencerelated. I like the fact that it’s not “art” and that you’re typically collaborating with other people.

ThereisahostofparticularitieswithindesignthatIenjoy.Iliketoworkwithclients.Butonlydesigningisdifficultforme.Ican’tsitdowneverydayandactuallydesignfortenhours.Icandesignfortwoorthreehours.ThenIamveryhappytodootherthings.

In the design world, you are a big rock star. How does that make you feel?

Iwouldsaytwothings:“Rockstar”hasbecomequiteagenericexpressionformanythingspeopledo.Afriendofminerecentlyreferredtoanotherfriendofmineasa“rockstar”becauseshehadaneasytimedeliveringababy.Secondly,designisourlittleworld.Whichis—andI’mveryawareofthis—awonderfulkindof“fame”tohave.Asadesigner,you’reverymuchinchargeofyourfame.Yougotoaconference,everybodyknowsyou,likesyou,youregoisfilledup.Yougetoutoftheconference,andyoucandowhateveryouwantandnobodybothersyou.

Havingbeenaroundmanyactualrockstars,I’veseenthedifferentcharacters,andtherearesomerockstarsouttherewhotrulyenjoyit.StevenTylerofAerosmithlovesbeingarockstar.Others




reallysufferthroughit.Theyhavebecomefamousthroughatrueloveofmusic,andtheybasicallywanttobeleftalone.IseesidesofthatinLouReed.Famecanbecomearealpainintheass.Asadesigner,youhavenoneofthat.Youfeellikeyouhaveonlythepositiveaspectsofit,andnoneofthenegative.AndasIhavesaidbefore:“Afamousdesignerislikeafamouselectrician.”

When did you realize that you wanted to be a graphic designer?

At16,whenIstartedtowriteforasmallmaga-zineanddiscoveredthatIlikedgluingthelayoutstogetherandhandwritingtheheadlines—thee ’swerealwaysmissingonourdonatedLetrasetsheets.Iwasalsoamemberofaterriblebandandstaredatrecordcoversforhoursonend—asanexcusetoavoidrehearsing.

When did you realize you had design talent?Ifeelthattalentistheimplementeddesiretoexcelatsomething.IhadadesiretobegoodatdesignwhenIwas18or19andfirstenteredartschoolinVienna.

Did you have an experience since then when you knew you had reached a level of being a really good designer? Did you ever have a moment when you thought, “Aha! This is what I wanted. This is what I was hoping for”?

Rarely.Perhapshereandthere.Occasionally,whenIhavecompletedsomethinganditcomesbackfromtheprinter.Ithinkthere’sonereasonwhybeingadesignerfitsmewell.I’mverymuchchangingwiththeopinionoftheaudience.Verymuchlikeawet-fingerpolitician.Iputmyfingerupintheairtoseewhichwaythewindblows.IthinkthiswouldbeverydetrimentaltomyworkifIwereafineartist.Butinthefieldofgraphicdesign—whereyouare


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alwaysdesigningsomethingforanaudience—itworksverywelltobethisway.

Why do you think it would be detrimental if you were a fine artist?

Ithinktheexpectationisthatfineartistsbasicallyworkforthemselves,andtheaudiencegetswhat-evertheycanfromit.I’msuretherearefineartistsouttherewhokeeptheaudienceinmindwhentheywork.Butit’snottheacceptedtrajectoryoftheprofession.Conversely,it’sveryclearindesignthatwhatwedoneedstobeseenandunderstoodbyanaudience.

How would you define the term “graphic design”?Surelyyoumustbejoking.Smarterpeoplehaveshottheirlittletoeoffoverthis.

Come on, give it a try.Ifyouinsist,howabout:

Graphicdesignistheworkthatismadebyagraphicdesigner.

Or:Thecombinationofvisualandwrittenexpressionofanidea,process,andsystemforthebettermentofclientinterests,humanlocomotion,notexcludingtherecenttrendofalowerx-heightamongDutchtypographers.

Do you ever feel insecure about things? Do you ever worry about not being good enough?

IthinkIworrymoreaboutcertainpiecesnotbeinggoodenoughormyworkbeingmediocre.Some-timesIgetstuck,andIcan’tseemtopushtheworkfurther.

What do you do when that happens?ItdependsonwhatkindofshapeI’min.IfI’mina




veryenergeticshape,Imighthavethegutstothrowitoutandstartanew.IfI’mnot,Imightletitgoandproducesomethingmediocreorslightlyabovemedi-ocre.ItdependsonhowstrongIamatthatgiventime.Iassumethishappenstomanypeople.Itisalwayseasiesttodothingsthatyou’vedonebefore.Thoughsometimesitcanbegoodtorepeatyourself.

Why do you feel that way? In what way is it good to repeat yourself ?

Sometimesit’sgoodtorepeatsomething,andtopushit.WhenIfirststartedout,mymantrainthestudiowasthatforeveryproject,wehadtotryoutsomethingtotallynew.Whichofcourseprovedhumanlyimpossiblefairlyquickly.Itwasnotsup-portable.AndIdon’tthinkitissupportablebyany-body.Sothestudiohassettledintomultiplewaysofworking.

Sometimes we do something totally new, but sometimes it’s okay to use handwriting again.

Thereisaproperwaytodevelopthings,butsometimesit’sdifficulttodecide:Areyoujustrepeatingyourself,orareyoudoingsomethingreallydifferent?

You said sometimes you just let something go that might be mediocre. How often do you think that you do that?

Probablyquiteoften.IfIlookedovertheworkwecompletedlastyear,IwouldsayIamreallyhappywithaboutthreeprojects.Andweworkedonatleast15projects.SothatmeansIletsomethinggo12times.ButIdon’tseparatethegoodthingsfromthebad,andIknowthatmanystudiosdo.OnecompanyIknowsays,“Thisone’sforthemeal,thisone’sforthereel.”BecauseIkeepmystudiososmall,there’snotverymuchwehavetodoforthemeal.

Now,tobeclear,those12projectsthatI’mreferringto,I’mnotembarrassedbythem.Mostof


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themhavegoodcontent,andIwouldsaythatallofthemweredoneforclientswhohaveaproductthatisworthwhile,andtheyallhadarighttobeinterest-ing.Butforonereasonoranother,theyarenotquitewheretheotherthreeare.

Do you find that you have a process for initiating your design work?

Yes.Thereareseveralprocesses,tobecombineddifferentlyforeveryproject.

Theyincludelist-making;switchingfromoneprojecttoanother;goingaloneintoacaféwithnothingtoreadandnobodytomeet,thuswindinguplikealonelyfoolandbeingshamedintoworking(stolethistechniquefromdirectorStevenSoder-bergh);andstartingaprojectwheretheseedoftheideahasabsolutelynothingtodowiththeproject,likedesigningacampaigntopromoteliteracyusingtheword“air-conditioner”—atechniquedevelopedbyEdwarddeBono.

Do you turn down a lot of work?Yes.That’safunctionofasmallstudio.Roughly,wecandoadozenjobsayear.Roughly.Wearenowatjobnumber140,andwehavebeeninbusinessfor12or13years.Ofcourse,thenicethingaboutthisiswecanpicktheonesthatseemthebest.

Do you regret anything?NotacceptingtheZadieSmithOn Beautycoverdesignwhenitlaterturnedouttobemyfavoritenovelofthatyear.

Do you ever see yourself wanting to have a bigger studio or joining forces with anyone else?

No.BeforeIopenedthestudio,Iworkedformanycompanies,largeandsmall.IfeellikeI’vegottenmydoseofthelargecorporateworld,ofthemidsizedcorporateworld,andofthesmallishcorporateworld.AndIhaveworkedinstudiosthatwereten,




20,30people.AndIfeelthatwhenIlookattheworkemergingfromanyoftheseentities,thereallygoodworkwasmostoftendonebythreepeople.When20peoplewereinvolved,itmostlysucked.Soforme,itneverseemsthatsizeworksinfavoroftheclient.

Frommyownperspective,asmallstudiohasnumerousadvantages.Youhavelowoverhead,soyoucanbefinanciallyindependent.Youarealsoabletoremainadesigner,somethingthatmanyofmyfriendshavelostastheirbusinessesgrewto10or20people.Ilikedoingthelittlebitofmanage-mentthatmysmallcompanyneeds,butIdon’twanttodoitfull-time.Idon’twanttobecomeafull-timedesignmanager.

Is there anything that you haven’t done yet that you want to do?

Indesign?

In life.Ohyes,thereareacoupleofthingsonmylistthatIhaven’tdone.Ihaven’tdrivenatruckthroughAntarctica.Ihaven’tmovedtoSriLankaforayear.Iwouldliketodoboth.Indesign,twothingsIhavenotdoneincludedesigningaCDcoverforKingCrimson,eventhoughwedon’tdomusicpackag-inganymore.KingCrimsonisabandthatwasclosetomyheartforavery,verylongtime.AndIwouldlovetoworkonabig,worldwidebrand,butonlyifIwouldhaveaccesstothedecision-maker.

Theonlydisadvantageofthesmallstudioisthatmostvery,verylargebrandingprojectstendtogotoverylargeinternationalfirms.Frommypointofview,thisisentirelymisbegotten.Ifyoulookatthesuccessfulbrandsworldwide,almostallofthesuccessfulidentitieshavebeendesignedbysingleentities,fromNiketoAppletoIBM.It’spartlybecausetheycomefromatimewhenPaulRandorSaulBassdesignedthem.


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I’mvery,verywellawarethatbrandingismuchmorethanlogodesign.Atthesametime,whatinternationalconsultanciesdonowisprimarilycenteredonconsultingandnotdesign,thoughtheypretendotherwise.Theseconsultancieswouldmuchratherbeoutofthedesignbusiness.However,whenyousitdownwiththeownersorwiththefoundersoftheseconsultanciesatabarafteracon-ference,it’sapparentwhattheydo.Andeverythingelsethattheyclaimtheyaredoingiscertainlynotatthecoreofwhattheyaredoing.Ifyoulookatabrandholistically,theconsultanciesdonotdowhatisprobablythemostimportantthingthatabrandreallydoes.

What do you think that is?Theyhavenoinfluenceorimpactonthequalityoftheproduct.Thequalityoftheproducthasmuchmoreinfluencethanwhatthedesignerdoes.EveryconferenceIgoto,peopletalkaboutthesameproducts:It’salwaystheiPod;it’salwaysStarbucks;it’salwaysthesuccessfulproductsfromthelastdecade.Despitethefactthatthesearedesignconferences,thereareconstantlyallthesetheoriesbeingpresentedabouthowthecompaniesthatmaketheseproductshavefiguredoutbranding.Butwhatitreallycomesdowntoisthefactthatthesecompanieshavefiguredouthowtomakeareallygoodproduct.

Ifyoulookattheadvertisingandbrandingbudgetsofthesecompanies,theyaretiny.IfyoulookattheadvertisingandbrandingbudgetofStarbuckscomparedtoMcDonald’s,it’sasmall,tinypercentage.Ithinktheconsumerisprettysmartinmakingchoicesbasedonquality.How-ever,whatdesignersdohasanunbelievableimpactonacoupleofsectorswheretheconsumerdoesn’tknowthedifference.

For example?Water.Vodka.Thereisnowayfortheconsumer




totellonewaterfromanother,oronevodkafromanother.Whateverwedo—beittheadvertising,beitthebottle,orbeitthelogoonthebottle—itreallymakesadifference,becauseitistheonlythingfortheconsumertoevaluatewhilemakingthedecisionaboutwhattobuy.Whentheconsumerreallydoesknowthedifference—withcars,orwithacupofcoffee,forexample—whatwedobecomesfairlyinsignificant.

So if you could work for any brand at all, what brand would you want to work for?

Itprobablywouldbeonethathasworldwidedis-tribution.Itwouldbeagoodproduct—perhapsonethatIusemyself,andI’minfavorof;andaproductthatdoesn’tdoanyharm.Verizonwouldbeagoodcandidate.

When was the last time you cried?AvideoofaliveperformanceofIggyPop,showninfrontofthePeterSavilleexhibitatLaforetMuseuminTokyo:Theconcertmusthavebeenfromtheearly’80s,afterthereleaseofLust for Life.Inthevideo,thebandstartsbyplaying“ThePassenger.”

Theguitargoes:dadadam, dadadam, dadadam, dadadam,dadadam, dadadam, dadadam, dadadam,

Theaudiencegoesnuts,it’sIggy’sbighit.


Iggyissupposedtojoinin,butjuststandstowardthebackofthestageinstead,smiling.


Iggysmiles,theaudiencegoesnuts.


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Iggywaits,theaudiencewantshimtojoinin,youseethemgetupontheirtoes,theyneedhimtojoin,Iggywaits.


Iggyslowlywalkstothefrontofthestage,surelynowitcanonlybesecondsaway,surelytheaudiencewillgetsomerelief.


Iggyturnsaround,possessingallthetimeintheworld.


Heiscompletelyandutterlyincontroloftheroom,alleyesandheartsonhim.


Heslowly,slowlyraisesthemicrophone,theaudi-enceneedssomerelief.


Andfinally,finally,finally:“i am the passenger,

and i ride and i ride, i ride through the city at night . . .”




Hemovestowardsthefrontofthestage . . . and—withoutgivingitanythoughtandwithoutlook-ing—he walks right off it,rightintotheoutstretchedhandsoftheaudience,walksontheirhands,likeJesusonthewater.That’swhenmytearscame.


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ne�ille Brody

It is entirely safe to say that Neville Brody is one of the most influential graphic designers of our time. His story begins in the U.K. music scene of the 1980s, when he designed record covers for legendary labels including Rocking Russian, Stiff Records, and Fetish Records. This led to his appointment as art director of the magazine Fetish, where he began experimenting with a new visual language that drew upon a striking combination of visual, architectural, and editorial elements.

But it was his groundbreaking work as art director for TheFace magazine, from 1981 to 1986, that allowed him to thoroughly reinvent the way in which both designers and readers approach the idea and expectation of what a magazine should look like. This innovation became a much-imitated example. TheGraphicLanguageofNevilleBrody, a mono-graph published in 1988, showcases that work as well as other projects both high- and low-profile.

Based in London, Neville now operates from the multidisciplinary design firm Research Studios. His contemporary design oeuvre includes everything from a redesign of the British newspaper TheTimes to typefaces to an identity for Dom Pérignon.

Neville was unguarded and uncensored in our interview. We talked about design celebrity, invented identities, the “eternal conundrum” of the design business, and the difficulty of doing anything truly rebellious in today’s visual culture.



Can you tell me about the first time you remember doing something creative?

Well,that’sreallydifficult.BecauseIwasdrawingbeforeIwaswalking.

Could you be a little more specific about that?Well,no,becauseIhavenomemoryofit.

Really? So you know this because your parents told you that you were drawing before you were walking?

Yes,ifIwaswalkingatoneoroneandahalf.

So what kinds of things were you drawing? Did your parents tell you?

No.I’venoideawhatsoever,I’mafraid.AllIcansayisthatfromthatpoint,therewasneveranydoubtastowhatIwasgoingtodo.Ineverspentmychild-hoodthinking,“WhenI’mgoingtogrowup,I’mgoingtochooseacareer.”Itwasthere.Itwaschosenforme.

In terms of your career, a love of drawing might have led to a career in fine art.

Ibegtodifferonthat.IthinkIamafineartist.IntheU.K.,wedoafoundationcourse,which

isapregraduatecourse.Everyonedoesithere,it’sayearortwo-yearcurriculum.Itallowsyoutodoeverythingfromtypographytodrawingtopotterytophotography.Andit’safabulousthing.Soevery-onedoesit,andtheyusethatyeartofigureoutwhattheywanttobedoing.

Oneofthethingsweweretaughtwasthatifyouhadsomethingtocommunicate,youshouldcommunicatetoasmanypeopleaspossible.Ididn’tseethepointintheelitistworldoffineart,whereyouwerecommunicatingtoanarrowfew.Especiallysincethatnarrowfewisself-elected.Furthermore,thefine-artworldwaslargelyaworldofcommerce.Atthetime,Ifeltverystronglythatitwasafakeculture.


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Do you feel there is something more real about the graphic design culture?

Ithinkthatthereissomethingmorehonestaboutit.Itisacommercialindustry.AndIliketheideaoftryingtohavesomethingcreativefunctioningwithinacommercialindustrymorethanIlikethenotionofpretendingyou’reinaculturalindus-try—whenit’sreallyallaboutmoney.Also,atthatparticulartime,theworldofpaintingwasahypo-criticalone.Itwaslimited,itwaselitist,anditwasexclusive:allofthethingsIabhorredatthetime.

Do you still feel that the fine-art world is an elitist, exclusive world?

Yes,evenmoresonow.

When I first asked if I could interview you for this book, you responded that I could do a book like this without you. Why is that?

Imean,youcould.I’msureyouhavesomeverybright,clear-minded,inspiringpeopleinthebook.AndI’mreallyhappyifwhatI’vedonehasmadeacontributionsomewhere.

Itisjustbizarre,really.TherearetwoNevilleBrodys:There’sme,thepersonwhogetsupinthemorningandshowersandgetsabusandargueswiththemilkmanandallofthat.Andthere’sthisotherNevilleBrody,whichwasnotquiteaninvention,butwhocameintobeingbecauseIfeltIhadsomethingverystrongtosayintermsofmessaging.AndIfeltverystronglythatyoucan’tremainonthefringeandexpecttobeheard.Imadeaconsciousattempttousecelebritystatusasacommunicationtool.

In what way?Todrawpeopletomyworkinorderforthemtogetintouchwiththeideasbehindit.Theideasbehindmyworkarequitepolitical—withasmallp—andthemessageIconveyisallaboutawareness.It’sall

n e v i L L e B r o D y



aboutthefactthat,thesedays,graphicdesignispartofaheavilymanipulativeindustry.

Do you feel that the work you’re doing contributes to that?

Ofcourse.Totally.Weworkinacommercialservice,andinevitablythere’scompromise.It’sjustaques-tionofdegree.

Do you feel that the invented Neville Brody is still very much a part of who you are, or do you feel the two Nevilles are more integrated now?

Ithinkthepublic-domainversionhasn’tbeenmanagedthisyear.Idon’thavethetime.ButitalwaysastonishesmewhenIgotoschool.EveryyearItryanddolife-drawingclasses—asastudent,notasateacher—andIalwaysfinditveryironic,thatIcanbeinanartschoolstudyinglife-drawing,andinthenextroomtheremightbeadesign-historyclassstudyingmywork.

I imagine that this is a very heady experience.It’ssurreal.

When I interviewed Stefan Sagmeister, he and I talked about the idea of celebrity. He had a wonderful perspective on this. He said: “Being a famous graphic designer is like being a famous electrician.”

IthinkStefan’sslightlywrong.Infact,he’sextremelywrong.Becauseanelectricianisn’tanopinionformer,butagraphicdesigneris.Myargumentisthatallgraphicdesignersholdhighlevelsofresponsibilityinsociety.Wetakeinvisibleideasandmakethemtangible.That’sourjob.Wetakenewsorinformationoremotionslike“hope”or“turnleft”or“buythis”or“besexy”—aswellasnotionsofbrandimageasbroadconcepts—andwegivethattangibleform.Wemakeitrealforpeople.


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Do you feel that your celebrity has impacted the quality of your work or your approach at all?

No,notatall.Wekeepaverylowprofileasastudio.Thesedays,myworkislargelyaboutnurturingandsupportingayoungteamhere.Idon’tfeelthatthequalityorideashavesuffered.ButIdothinkthatit’shardertodoradicalthingsinmedianow.

In what way?Inthewaythatanything’spossible.Therewasatimewhenanythingthatwasn’tseenasconserva-tivewasseenasquiterebelliousandradical.Butthesedays,anythinggoes.YoucanwalkdownthestreetnakedinthemiddleofLondon,andnoonewouldbataneyelid.Youcanbuyhardcorepornanywhere,andnoonebatsaneyelid.It’snolongeranissue.Youcanchooseanyfont,useitinanyway,andit’sallgood.There’snoreasonwhyoneismoreworthythananyother.There’snoshockvalueanymore.

Then how do you think messages best get through to people?

Theproblemisthatthereisamediocritybornofgenericculturerightnow.Anycityyougotolooksthesame.Itravelalot.AndwhetherIwakeupinahotelinSingaporeorToronto,theexperienceisthesame,thecultureisthesame.Eventhepicturesonthewallarethesame.AndtheyarethesamepicturesImightfindatthefrontoftheBritishAir-wayscabinontheflightover.It’sallinterchange-able.Thissignifiesthatacoremeaninghasgottenlostsomehow.

ButthegenerationI’mpartofthoughttheworkwedocouldhelpmakesocietyabetterplace.Andthatended.ReaganandThatcherdestroyedthat.Theybelievedthatcultureisnotaboutiden-tity,butratherisaboutcoding,whichcanbethenexploitedforadvertisinguse.Itturnedeverything




upsidedown.IntheU.K.,iteventurnedcollegesintofinancialinstitutions.

Do you feel that you can make a difference with your work now?

WhatIloveaboutthisbusinessisthatit’saneternalconundrum—aneternalparadox.Ifyou’reworkinginthecommercialworld,howdoyouworkforthebenefitofpeople?Commercialworklargelymeansthatyou’rebeingcommissioned.Andthismeansthatyou’vebeencommissionedbysomeonewhowantstobenefitfromthatcommissioning,and99percentofthetime,it’sforfinancialgain.

And how do you navigate through that?Youhavetolookforopportunities.Theproblemrightnowisthatradicaldesignisjustafashionablespace.There’snothingreallyradicaloutthere.Radical,forinstance,wouldbenon-commercial.

Do you feel like people don’t pay attention unless they’re shocked?

Ithinkpeoplehavebecomeimmune.

How do you reach people now? Have you thought about how things stand out?

Yes.Anon-commercialspace.Aspacedevoidofadvertisingwouldbeashock.

How do you know when something you’ve created is good?TheworkthatItryandachieve,andthekindofworkI’vealwaystriedtoachieve,hasahighdegreeofinvestedambiguity.

What does that mean?Intheadvertisingbusiness,it’snotintheinterestofadvertisersforpeopletothinkaboutwhatthey’representedwith.It’sintheinterestofadvertisersthatpeoplechoosetothinkinthewaytheadvertisersintendthemto.It’saformulaic


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thing,wherethere’sonlyonepossibleoutcomeinadvertising.Thatcreatesaspacewherethe“righttothought”istakenawayfrompeople.

I’vealwaystriedtoapproachmyworkasbeingopen-endedandwithadegreeofabstractionorambiguity.Thispreventsitfrombeingamono-logue,becauseitisadialogue.Theworkisonlycompletedwhenaviewerhaslookedatitandmadehisorherowndecisionastothefullmeaningofthepiece.

How do your clients respond to that intentional ambiguity?

Youcan’talwaysdoit.Thereareclientswhoresistit.We’vedonebrandingexerciseswherethingshaveendedupveryfixed.Andthatispartandparcelofworkinginthecommercialdesignindustry.

What do you think are the long-term ramifications of that for designers?

Well,it’sagloriouslyhealthyindustry.Anditlooksbeautifulthesedays.Mybiggestobsessionatthemomentisthatnothingisdifficult.

Tell me what you mean by “difficult.”Idon’tmean“difficult”asinraisingachildisdif-ficult,orkeepingadogisdifficult.We’vegoneintoarealmoffearwhereinwetrytomakethingsaseasyaspossible.

No one’s prepared to engage with difficult ideas anymore. It is very rare that graphic design is a difficult, engaging space these days.

Evenfineartisnotdifficultanymore.It’ssensation-alist,butit’snotdifficult.

When do you think the last moment of “difficulty” was?IthinksomeofStefan’sworkisdifficult.IthinksomeofTibor’sworkwasdifficult,buthighlyenter-taining.Andthenyouhavetogobackawhile.In




termsoffineartintheU.K.,we’vehada“BritArt”thinggoingon,apop-artthing.It’sallbeenverysensationalist.It’swhatIcallpost-productionart.

What does that mean?Basically,youstartwithasensationyouwanttoachieve,andthenworkbackwardsandplothowtoachieveit—inthesamewaythatadvertisingdoes.It’sexactlythesame.Artthesedaysislikeanadvertisingindustry.Thepointis:

There is nothing really different. There’s nothing really dangerous, there’s nothing really difficult out there right now. And I think we need some things to start galvanizing people. I think we need things that allow people to think in noncommercial ways.

Do you feel that you had any failures in your career?Oh,totally.OneofmybiggestfailureswasThe Facemagazine.

How do you see that as a failure?Well,thewholemessageofThe Facewasthatyoudon’thavetoacceptconditionedrules.Youcangooutandchallengethingsandcreatenewspacesandnewexpression.

How would you view this as a failure?Well,thefailurewasthatpeoplecopiedit,ifyouseewhatImean.

Did they copy it, or were they trying to— No,theycopiedit,especiallyintheU.K.Itbecameacopycatculturehere.

But how do you see that as a failure?Becausepeoplemissedthemessage,theyjusttookthestylisticattributes.Anditwasn’taboutstylisticattributes.Itwasabouttheideathatlanguageisorganic,thatlanguagecanevolveassocietyevolves.


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Itshouldbeindividual,anditshouldn’tbeinthecontrolofthefew.Itshouldbeaconstant,livingprocess—notadeadthing,whichiswhatwe’vebeentaughtatcollege.

So do you see that as a failure of the work that you did, or do you see that as a failure in the way that society—

I’dsayitwasjustapersonalfailure,andthatImis-judgedit.The Facewasanopenlaboratory,really.AndeachissueofThe Facewastheresultofanothermonth’sexperimentations.Andnoneoftheseweresupposedtobefixedpoints;theywereallsupposedtobeevolutionary.

Why do you think it became so copied?Becauseatthetime,therewasn’tanythingelseouttherelikeit.

Really? Do you think that’s the only reason?No,whathappenedwasalsobecauseitwasnew.

But there are a lot of new things that don’t speak to people to the extent that they want to copy the design, or to use it to express themselves.

Maybe.MyproblemisIcan’tseemtodistancemyselffromwhatIperceivetobeafailure.ThisiswhyIdidArenamagazineafterwards,inwhichnothingchanged.WhenIwasatThe Face,therewereonlyafewofus,andweworkedlateatnight;butitwasnotamassivemovementofanykind.Nevertheless,therewasadistinctpressureofexpectationthateverythingshouldbenewallthetime.Sonewbecameournorm.Peopleexpectedthingstobenew.Whenwedidanissuethatwassimilartothepreviousmonth’sissue,wewerecriti-cizedforit.AndIendedupfeelingthattheonlywaytoreactwastodosomethingthatneverchanged.

And do you feel that was more successful?Well,intheend,itbecamesomethingelse.When




Istartedupindesign,Iwasinthismanicsearchforthenew.Thisdesperatesearchforthenewwasafutileprocess.Thiswasmyattempttositdownandtakestock.IseeArenamoreasaparkbenchthanasamagazine.Itwastimetotakestock,checkmyshoes,buyniceclothes,livecomfortablyforawhile,andseetheworldagain.Andthen,ofcourse,Icouldn’tsitstill,andwetriedtomakeHelveticaseememotional,whichiswhysomeofthelaterworkwasmuchmoreexpressive.

Attheendoftheday,Ithinkwemustalwaystrytoexpandourspectrum.Themorepeoplewetrytocommunicatewith,themoregenericourmes-sageshavetobecome.Andasourmessagesbecomemoregeneric,it’slesslikelythatpeoplewillhaveaccesstoanythingthat’sdifferent.Iknowthisisslightlynegative,butit’snotmeanttobe.It’sapleaforhumanism.


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peter sa�ille

For as long as I can remember, I have had an intense fascination with record covers. The albums of the rock band Yes, featuring ethereal, otherworldly illustra-tions by Roger Dean, first entranced me.

But my world was permanently transformed when I fell under the spell of Peter Saville’s work for Joy Division. I studied the cover art with the precision of a biologist, and the more I looked, the more I found. This, to me, is part of the magnificence of Saville’s creations. While often minimalist and nearly always postmodern, they are layered with abundant nuance and boast a magical attention to detail.

In addition to his record covers for Joy Division, New Order, Suede, and Pulp, Peter has also created a substantial body of work for an endless list of über-fabulous fashion designers, most notably Jil Sander, Yohji Yamamoto, and Stella McCartney. He has even created a brand identity for the supermodel Kate Moss.

In 2003, Peter published the monograph DesignedbyPeterSaville, a gorgeous tome that was a partner piece to a major retrospective of his work at London’s Design Museum. In 2004, he was anointed the first-ever creative director of the city of Manches-ter in England.

Peter and I had a long, sprawling conversation about the lack of intellectual rigor in cult-pop design, his controversial sojourn at Pentagram, and why, six years into his career, he didn’t know how to design a letterhead.



[Saville begins without prompting...]Beforewegetstarted,onerelevantthingtostateisthatIbelievethatcommunicationdesignisforothersandtoothers.Thisisanimportantthingforyoungerorwould-begraphicdesignerstorecognize.

Can you elaborate?Youngerdesignersandwould-bedesignersmustunderstandthatcommunicationdesignisforothersandtoothers.

As opposed to— Foryourself,toyourself.

There is a great misconception in this era of graphic design that it is a medium of selfexpression.

Why do you think that misconception exists?Partlybecauseofworkbypeoplesuchasmyself.

Why is that? In what way?ItmaynotbeevidentintheU.S.yet,butitwillbe.ItisveryevidentintheU.K.,especiallyamongdesigngraduatesofthepastfewyears.Theformsofcom-municationsartswhichhavebeenthemost“direc-tional,”especiallytoyoungpeopleinformativeyears—suchasfashioncampaigns,editorialdesigntosomeextent,andtherecordcoverinparticular—areverypersuasivemediumstoyoungpeople.Theyarriveataveryformativetimeintheirlife,andinthecontextofakindofobsessiveassociation.

Inparticular,youngmenareobsessiveaboutcertainaspectsofmusic—especiallyofthecultaspectsofmusic—andtheytendtoembraceeverythingthatcomeswithit.Soifyou’reaMarilynMansonfan,youtakeontheentirepackage.Ifyou’reintorap,youtakeontheentirepackage.Thisiswhatadolescentsdo.Thegraphicartsassociated


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withpopculturearetheentry-leveldoorwayintothisdiscipline.

Andthey’reactuallyquitemisleadingormisguidingfromthepointofviewoftheprofessionofcommunicationdesign.Cultpopisafree-formzoneofautonomousexpressionforthedesigner.Thereisverylittleornodisciplineinvolved.Forthelast20yearsorso,ithasbeenactingasan“entry-levelart”foryoungpeople,enticingthemintotheprofession.

Why do you think there is no discipline involved in cult-pop design?

Becausethereisnodisciplineinvolved.Becausenoneofitreallymatters.Theimagerytodowithpopcultureisirrelevant.

So there’s no rigor in it?There’scertainlynointellectualrigorinit.Andthere’snobusinessorcommercialrigorinit.Twenty-two-year-oldsdesignrecordcoversforothertwenty-two-year-olds.Themusicindustrymakesmoneyoutofit.Ihavenever,ever,ever—inalltheyearsIdidrecordcovers—Ineverhadwhatwewouldcallabusinessorpositioningdiscussionvis-à-visarecordcover.

And still, to this day, you don’t?No.Notinthewaywewouldexperienceinthebroaderaspectsofbusiness.It’sentirelyemotion-allyled.Imean,whatdowethinkthebriefisforaMadonnacover?Thereisonlyonebrief:KeepMadonnahappy.That’sit.Madonnahastobehappy.That’sthebrief.BecauseaMadonnaalbumisgoingtosell.Itdoesn’tmatterifthepackageisabrownpaperbag.Itwillsell.Thebiggesthurdlehereiswhetherthetalentishappy.

You blame yourself for this lack of discipline?No,notthegenerallackofdiscipline.Thisstarted

p e T e r s A v i L L e



beforemytime.It’sjustthewaythatpopcultureworks.Lately,I’vehadoneortwoclientsintheskateboardingandsnowboardingbusiness,whatIwouldconsiderthecultendoffashion.It’sallthesamething;it’sallentirelyintuitive.That’swhyyougetyoungpeopletodesignit.Theydoacoverthattheylike,andquidproquo,theirpeergrouplikesit.That’sit.

Itisallanentirelyintuitiveexperience;con-sequently,it’snotworthverymuchmoney.Youdon’tgetpaidmoreasyoubecomemoreexperi-encedormoreprofessionalorbetteratwhatyoudo.There’sabudgetfordoingarecordcoverwhetheryou’re20or50,andthat’sallthereistoit.

Do you think that as we age, we become less intuitive?No.Wejustbecomelessintuitivetothatpop-culturesphere.Webecomeintuitivetoanothersphere.Inmyopinion,designingrecordcoversisnotanappropriatejobfora40-year-oldorevena30-year-old.Whatistrickyisthatthisareaofpopculturehasbeenofferingadoorwaytographicsforyoungpeople.Butit’saverymisleadingintroductiontotheprofessionitself.Let’sfaceit:Thereareveryfew18-year-oldsstartingoffatanartcollegewhoreallywanttogotherebecausetheylovethenewBPlogo.That’sthekey.

Ithinkthatclassesinthegraphicartsarereallyentry-levelfineart—inthesamewaythatpopartisentry-levelartfortheuneducatedandtheuncultured.

Why do you think it’s entry-level fine art?Becauseit’sdumbeddown.Thesedays,thegraphicartsarebasicallytakingtheircuesfromcontempo-raryfineart.

For example?Inthepreviousdecade,theytooktheircuesfromfashion.Inthedecadebeforethat,theytookitfrom


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popartmaybe.Butthelastdecadeisincreasinglyaboutcontemporaryfineartbecomingtheleaddiscipline.It’sdisseminatedbroadly,it’sinthemedia:Artisthenewfashion,blahblahblah.Andofcourse,youngpeoplearetakingtheirleadfromit.They’reinterestedinit.Youknow,JeffKoonsisnotallthatdifficulttoget,superficially.

How did you get started in graphic design?Igotintographicdesignbecauseofmyhighschoolartteacher.AlongwithmybestfriendMalcolmGarrett,Iwastalkingtothisteacheraboutthefuture,andheaskedusifwehadeverconsideredgraphicdesign.Andwesaid,“No,what’sthat?”Thiswas1974.Heexplainedtousthatbeingagraphicdesignerwasactuallyaprofession.Itwashardtobelievethatwhatwelikeddoingduringlunchtimeatschoolwassomethingwecoulddoforaliving—andthiswasveryexcitingforus.

Thenwewentofftocollegeandgottheverydullintroductiontothefactthatdesignisactuallydifficult.Wewereintroducedtothedisciplineofdesigninthe’70s.But—ourbig“but”—wasthis:Whilstwewereatcollege,somethingfundamen-tallyradicalhappenedinpopculture.Popculturewasbrieflytakenbackbyyoungpeople.Punkrockseizedthewheelofpopculturefrombusinessandgaveittothepeopleandtothekidsthemselves.Thislastedforabouttenminutes.

So it was sort of the perfect storm for you to be able to do what you wanted.

Yes.Bythemid-’70s,popculturehadbecomeanentirelycommoditizeddimensionofbusiness.Youwenttoseeconcertswith3,000otherpeople,andyoudutifullyboughttheproductsofmajorrecordlabels.Therewasnothingpersonalinitatall;itwasbusiness.

Thenpunksteppedin,andallsortsofinde-pendentrecordlabelssprungup.Andthishappened




atexactlythetimeIgraduatedfromcollege.SoIbecameajointfounderofarecordlabelinMan-chester.Immediately,Ifoundmyselfwithagroupofpeoplewhowereentirelynon-business,andIwasbothclientanddesigner.NobodyatFactoryRecordshadanythingtodowithbusiness.Itwasn’tevenacompany;itwasn’tajobforanybody.Itwasagroupofpeoplewhothoughtthey’dliketodothingsdif-ferently.Nomoneywasinvolved,andsoeverybodydidexactlyastheywantedoutofcompletenaïveté.

SoIdidtherecordcoversthatIwouldhavelikedtoreceivemyself.IdidwhatIwouldhavelikedtofindintherecordshop.ItwasevenmoreextremeinmypositionatFactory:Thegroupsthemselveswerenotinvolved.Theyactuallydel-egatedalldesigndecisionstome.WithalltheothergroupsI’veeverworkedwith,it’sbeenadifferenttypeofsituation.YouareactingastheartdirectorordesignerofaclientwhohappenstobeJarvisCockerorMadonnaorwhomever.Itisaprofes-sionalplayground.

WhereaswhenIwasworkingwithFactory,thegroupssteppedoutofthevisualdecision-makingprocess,andtheyleftthedesignuptome.Ihada14-yearperiodduringwhichIhadanunsupervisedplatformthatreachedanincreasinglylargeinternationalaudience.WithgroupssuchasJoyDivisionandNewOrder,Ihadadirectlinetoatleast150,000peopleforwhateverIwantedtodo.Ihadnogivencreativebrief.Ihadnogatekeeper.Andthis—partlybecauseofwhatIdid,butmuchmorebecauseofthecontextofJoyDivisionandNewOrder,andthemedium—thisbrokeredanenormousamountofinfluence.

Istillcan’tquitebelievehowgreataresponsi-bilitythislevelofinfluencewas.Butitwasenor-mous.Thereareavastnumberofpeoplewhotellmetheybecamegraphicdesignersbecauseofmyrecordslips.


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How does that make you feel?Well,Ihavetosay,“I’msorry.”Iapologize.Iusuallysay,“I’msorryaboutthat,”andtheysmileknow-ingly.Becauseit’snotlikethatanymore.Youdonotdowhatyouwanttodo.Andyet,thisnotionisratherprevalent.It’sprevalentindesigneducationatthemoment.

In what way?It’sratherdangerous.Therearealotofself-initiatedbriefsgoingonindesigneducation.Andthisishelp-fultotheindividualwhowantstolookdeepandaskquestionsaboutwheretheywanttobe.Butthatdiscoveryhastobestructuredwithinthecontextofbusiness.It’snotart.Graphicdesignisadangeroustermnow.Weshouldreallycallitcommunicationsdesign,becausegraphicdesigndoesn’treallymeananything.Whatisthejob?Thejobiscommunica-tionsdesign,andthatisconveyingsomebodyelse’smessagetoaprescribedaudience.Whoyouareandwhatyouthinkaboutitdoesn’tnecessarilycomeintoplay.ThejobistoarticulatethemessagefromAtoB.

Nowthisisverydifferenttotheprofessionalthinkingthatwemightassociatewiththegraphicdesigngreatsof,let’ssay,the’70s.

For example?MiltonGlaser,SaulBass,MassimoVignelli.Cer-tainlythePentagramfounders.Theydidhaveastyle,buttheywereworkingintheintellectualandphilosophicaldimensionofthepractice.Therewasadisciplinetohowtheycommunicatedtopeople.Theywereactingprofessionallyonbehalfoftheirclients.Theywerestrategists,nothiredkillers.Andwhenwethinkabouttheprofessionofgraphicdesign—thegrown-up,matureprofessionofgraphicdesign—itisaboutintellectandstrategy.It’sabouthowwemightbestcommunicatetheneedsofAtoaudienceB.




When did your transformation occur? You started out in a way that you felt was entirely intuitive, and now you have radically different ideas about what you do.

IhadachannelthatallowedmetodowhatIwantedtodo,whichdidbrokerenormousinfluence.Ofcourse,withinayearorso,assoonasImovedfromManchestertoLondonandactuallystartedtoworkprofessionally—certainlybythemid-’80s(assoonasImadethestepoutofthemusicindustry,outofthesortofthe“children’sland”)—thenIwasconfrontedwiththerealityofcommunicationsdesign.

Was it traumatic for you?Itwastraumaticinthesensethatittookusaboutayeartodoaletterhead.

What do you mean?By1985,IhadthreeD&ADSilverawards,butIcouldn’tdoaletterhead.AsmuchasIwasflatteredbytherequesttodoaletterheadandidentityforagallery,IrealizedthatIhadnoideawhatIwasdoing.IrealizedthatImaybesuccessfulasarecordcompanydesigner—andpeoplemaypayuslotsofmoneyforthat—butforthis,Iwouldhavetogobacktothebeginning.Ihadtostartfromnothingandlearnfromthegroundup.Thesamethinghappenedsixmonthslater,withafashionproject.Ididn’tknowhowtodoit.

Looking back at the work that you did prior to that, how do you feel about it now, looking at it from a more critical perspective?

Iseeitasartpracticeinthecontextofaplayground.TheNewOrdercoverswereclosertoartpractice,butwithnoneoftheintellectualrigoranddisciplinethatafine-artcoursewouldhaveimposeduponme.Therestischildren’sart.

Is there anything you regret about the work that you did at the time?


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Notreally.Someofitisbetterthantherest.Someofitisstillamongstmyfavoriteworkofalltime.Someofitisfantastic.

What do you think is the best of it?ThecoverforaNewOrderalbumin1983calledPower, Corruption & Lies—anditsattendantsingle“BlueMonday”—areveryinteresting,andarereasonablyinterestingasartpractice.Theywereofgreatsignificancetootheryoungerpeoplewhobecamedesigners,whobecameartists,fashiondesigners,photographers,productdesigners,etc.Theinfluencebrokereduponayoungergenerationofartists—offineartists—wasimmense.That’sthesortofinterestingthingabout14-to18-year-olds:Theyarenotyetdoctors,lawyers,artists,orarchi-tects.Thatlevelofinfluencewascompletelyacrosstheboard.

Therearenowseveralgenerationsofartistswhoquotethosecoversastheirformativeinflu-ences.Similarly,Imeetarchitectswhoarefans,fashiondesignerswhoarefans,photographerswhoarefans,endlessgraphicdesignerswhoarefans.

Currently,IamworkingwiththeManchesterCityCouncil,andIhavemet[councilmembers]whoarefans.Thesearepeoplewhoworkinthepublicsectorbutboughtmyrecordswhentheywereyounger.I’mcreativedirectoroftheCityofManchesternow,andthat’sdirectlylinkablebacktothatearlywork.

How do you know when the work you’re doing is good?It’skindofinteresting,thatone.Youknowwhenyou’vesolvedtheproblem.From1985untilnow,I’vestruggledtooperatewithintherealcontextofcommunicationsdesign.Idon’tactuallyenjoyit.Itisn’treallywhatIwanttodo.Iammoreinterestedinmyownopinions.So,Igraduallyhavefosteredagalleryopportunity.ButI’mbeingvery,verycarefulaboutit,becauseit’saslipperyslope.




Mydayjobinthemeantime—forthelast20years—hasbeentheactivityandenvironmentofworkforothers.Andfortunately,I’vegottenbetteratdoingit.IhadtwoyearsatPentagraminLondon,whichwasinvaluable.Really,reallyinvaluable.

In what way?Igottolearnsomethingfrommyelders—andIcouldsay“betters”—butreallyfrommyelders.Ilearnedenormousamounts.That’sthethingaboutbeingapartneratPentagram:Youaretemporarilyputonaplatformwiththeotherguys.AndIhadneverworkedforanybody.I’dneverhadthebenefitofamentor.So,suddenlyIhad15ofthem.Andtheyweresomeofthebestpeopleinthewesternworldintheprofessionofgraphicdesign:JohnMcConnell,DavidHillman,ColinForbes,andAlanFletcher.Youcouldn’thelpbutlearn.Imean,JohnMcConnell,DavidHillman,Alan,Colin—Ilearnedanenormousamountfromthem.Ilearnedthingseveryday.Imean,IupsetthemandIfrustratedthem,andintheend,theyaskedmetogo.ButinthetwoyearsIwaswiththem,IlearnedanenormousamountfromthecollectivewisdomofPentagram.

Did you want to leave?Yes,Ihadthoughtaboutit,andIhadtoleave.Wewerenotcompatible.Butinmyopinion,itprobablywouldhavebeenbetterforPentagramifIdidstay.

Why?IbelievedthattheincompatibilitywassymptomaticofanissuethatPentagramneededtofaceout.

Which was?Iwasakindofflyintheointment.Iwaspartofagenerationalshift.YetIactuallybelievedinthephilosophicalstructureofPentagram.IbelievedintheopportunitythatPentagramprovidedfortheindividualtobeeffectivewithinthewiderterms


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ofbusiness.Afterall,asinglepersondoingBritishAirwaysdoesn’twork.ThekindofPaulRandandIBMrelationshipdoesn’thappenanymore.Bigbusinessesneedbigcompaniestotalkto.Andyet,it’susuallythetalentorthevisionofonepersonthatdefinesthework.Butit’sverydifficulttobecomeacontenderforthatkindoflarge-scaleproject.

ThePentagramstructuredidthat.Itactuallycreatedasituationwhereonepersoncouldinteractwiththeproblem.Theproblemusuallyisthatonceyou’vebuiltupa60-or100-person-strongcompanytobeapotentialservice,you’vebecomeabusiness-person.Youarenolongeradesigner.Thatactivitydisappearedyearsandyearsago.Itiswhatalwayshappens.It’stheclassicpyramidstructureofcreativecompanies.Itdoesn’twork.

PentagramwasthisbrilliantalternativethatColinandAlanandcompanycameupwithintheearly’70s.Itwasabrilliantidea.AndIbelievedinittotally.Ijustdidn’tbelieveinthelook.Ibelievedintheessenceofit—asasolutiontoaproblem—butnotinthelook.MyreservationaboutPentagramwasthatitwasgluedtothelookofitsfoundingera.Ibelievedthattheydidn’treallyunderstandfashion,andtheydidn’treallyunderstandthekindoffast-movingcharacterofpop.

Do you still feel that way?Yeah,Ithinkthatitisahandicap.Pentagramwasasupergroupfoundedoutoffiveofthebiggest,mostradicalnamesinthelater1960s.That’swhatmadeitPentagram.You’vegottocomplementlikewithlike—especiallywhenyouexperiencegenerationalpassagesoftime.Toacertainextent,inthe’90s,Pentagramneededthenextradicalgeneration.Whethertheylikeditornot,theyneededit.AndIwasarepresentativeofthatgeneration.Butitwasjustalltoodifficultforthem.

ThesortofweirdrealizationIgotatPenta-gram—onceIwasin—wasthattheyreallywanted




metorecantandseethattheyweretheonetruechurch:“Thefactthathe’sjoinedourclubisanacknowledgmentthatweare,afterall,correct.”AndIwaslike,“Ohshit.Ithoughtweweregoingtochangeit.Ithoughtyouhadthewilltochangeit.”ThatwaswhyIjoined.

So how do you keep yourself continually changing?Well,thisquestionprobablygetstotheessenceofwhatyouneedtoaskme:whatmyworkisabout.MyworkisaboutmyopinionofwhatIseearoundme.

That’s flying in the face of what you started by saying—but is that how you started your career?

Itwasthesamethen.MyworkthenwasaboutwhatIsawaroundme.Myopinionoftheworldaroundme,andwhatIfeltitneeded.Andthat’swhatinformedmyworkatthebeginning.Factoryallowedmeacompletelyfreereintoexpressthat.WheneverIhadtoworkprofessionally,Ifoundthatpeopledidn’treallyunderstandwhatIwastalkingabout.Theyalwaysdidlater,buttheyneverdidatthebeginning.UsuallyotherpeoplesteppedinandprofitedfromwhatIhaddoneearlier.

In what way?EverythingIdidinthe’80sgotcopiedfortheHighStreet.*Idon’twanttosoundtooarrogantaboutthis,butalongwithoneortwootherpeople,thecommunicationsworldofthepast20yearslookshowIthoughtitshouldlook.

In what regard?There’saclarityofprecision,akindofquotationwithinthecontextoffashion,ofwhatwemightcall“lifestyle.”Acommunicationthroughothervisualcodes,throughsemiotics.ThisiswhereIwasat

*ABritishtermforthestreetwhereallthemajorshopsarelocated.


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oddswiththePentagramcrew.The’60sand’70sproducedatypeofcommunicationthroughvisualpun.TheNewYorkschool—whenexecutedbyitsbestpractitioners,andintheearlystagesofculturalawareness—wasveryeffective.Iseetheperiodsincethe’50sasaperiodofpostwar,socioculturaldemocratization.Iseethelast50or60yearsasaperiodduringwhichordinarypeoplehavebeenintroducedtoculture.Culturehasbeendemocra-tizedoverthelast50or60years.

How has culture been democratized?Ordinarypeoplenowhaveachoiceoffurniture,ofarchitecturalstyles,ofclothing,offashion,offood.Ordinarypeopledidn’thavethatbefore.TheU.S.isaspecialexampleofwhatyoucall“theAmericandream.”Intruth,theAmericandreamdoesn’treallybecomecommoditizeduntilmidcentury.

How do you feel about that commoditization?It’sessential.Ithasadownside,butit’sessential.Ourchoicesasordinarypeoplenow—thesearechoicespreviousgenerationsdidn’thave.Ourlife-stylesnowareakindofcheapversionofwhatwasformerlyprivilege.

BythetimeIwasatartcollegeinthelatterhalfofthe’70s,IcouldsayeverythingIwantedwiththedifferencebetweenHelveticaandFutura.Sayeverything!Icantranscend20yearswiththosetwofonts.

Idon’twishtocommunicatetoeverybody.Veryfewthingsareforeverybody.Ifyoudon’tunderstandmycommunication,that’sfine,becauseit’sprobablynotforyou.Buttheoneswhodounder-standaretheonesthatit’sfor.Sothelate’70sarethebeginning—theearlystages—ofwhatweunder-standasdesignercultureandlifestyleculture.

Now,thatisstillthepredominantmethodol-ogyincommunicationsdesign.Andmyerabringsthatin.AndIwasgravelyatoddswithmytutorsat




college,whorejectedit.AndIwasgravelyatoddstenyearslaterwiththeoldguysatPentagram,whojustdidn’tgetit.Theydidn’tseethismethodologyasdesign.Theycouldn’tsee,youknow,becauseitupsettheirbelovedidea.Theycouldn’tseeit.Andthesewerethenewcodesofcommunicationsdesignthatarenowubiquitous.

Do you feel like your older work is as relevant now as when you created it?

Well,peopleseemtothinkitis.Ithinkit’smorerelevantinitsattitudesthaninitsforms.Afterall,it’s25yearsago.

TheonlyworkthatIcandonowthat’srelevantistheworkIwouldputintoagallery.OrwhenIoccasionallyhaveafree-formproject.

I think everybody feels that the work you were doing when you first started out in your career was very much an influence for the times and the ensuing years. And you just said now that the only work you could conceive to be relevant was—

Self-expression,yes,self-expression.

So how could you conceivably do relevant graphic design?

Idon’tthinkyoucan.

Do you think anybody can?Whenyou’reworkingforthepublicsector.Ascre-ativedirectorofacity,Ifindtheprocessincredibly,incrediblydifficult,andnotparticularlyexciting.AdayinManchestertownhallisnotquitethesameas,youknow,backstageataJilSandershow.

How do you feel about the fact that design is now being used as advertising?

Thisiswhereadilemmaandcrisiscomein.Ibelievethatgooddesignisfundamentallyorien-tatedaroundtruth,andonceitlosesitstruth,


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you’velostitcompletely.Thesemioticsofgooddesignimplythatifwe’veredesignedamagazineorahotelorahospital,itisnowbetter;thatnewproblemshavebeensolved;thatnewchallengeshavebeenaddressed.Incontemporaryprojects,we’reoftennotmakingthingsbetter,we’rejustmakingthingsdifferent:“It’sjustdifferentbecausewe’dlikeyoutobuymore.”It’sjustdecoration.Designislosingitsessentialvaluesbecauseit’sbeingusedforthewrongpurposes.It’sbeingusedtosellusstuff.It’sbeingusedasadvertising.

Iwasproudandhappytodofashioninthe’80swhenIfeltthatfashionwassomethingstillbeingdisseminatedtopeople.Butnowit’slikeadrug.Nowit’slikeanaddiction.Youdonotneedanewhandbageveryseason.Youjustdon’t.Andthey’reallrubbish.Youjustdon’tneedthem.

So what do we do? How do we change this?Thebigproblemforcommunicationsdesignersistheyhavetoearnaliving.Andthisisthenewjob.We’vebecomemessengerboys.Wedothehand-writingforthesepeople.Ilikeneditrecentlytopopculture:It’sgonefrombeinglikeacidtobeinglikecrack.Popcultureislikecrack.Itdoesn’tgiveyouanything.Itjustwantstotakeyourmoney,andwhenyou’verunout,youcanfuckoff.Andunfortunately,thegraphicdesigncommunityhasbecomethelecherousboysofthisbusiness.It’sabigproblem.

Youcanchoosetodosomethingdifferent.Ifyousay,I’mgoingtomakemyownposter,thenyou’reapolitician,orawriter,oranartist.Youcansay,“Fuckit,I’mgoingtodomyownbook.”Well,you’dbetterwriteitfirst.Theproblemwithgraphicdesignisit’stheinterface.Youcanchangewhatyou’resayingtopeople,butthenyoubecomesome-thingelse.Graphicsisjusttheinterface.Andthisistheproblem.Theworkisthework.




You’re not feeling very optimistic about it.No,I’mnot.That’sprettymuchwhyI’veretiredit.Becausethere’slotsofbeautifulworkgoingon,butwhatisitfor?Whatisitfor?You’vegotthisnewproblem,andit’ssomethingthatcanbedealtwith,butnotwithafrigging5,000moregraphicdesignerseveryyear.Ibelieveyoumustquestionwhetherornotyouidentifywiththeneedyouarearticulating.Youshouldaskyourself,“AmIdoingsomethingthatisembarrassing?”

Ifyougoaroundfeelingembarrassed,it’saverygoodsignal.Andyouknowwhenitfeelsright,andwhenitfeelsembarrassing.Andthisisabig,bigproblemforgraphicdesigners.Becausewearebeingaskedtolegitimizecommerce.

TheveryessenceofwhatIamtryingtosayisthis:Wemustbecommunicatorsoftheworld.Wehelpotherpeopleseethings.Thisisattheheartofwhatwedo.Andofcourse,whereyoudothatandhowyoudothatmuststayapacewithyourownlifeandevolution.Imean,I’m51yearsofagenow!PeoplestillphoneandaskmeifIwanttodesignalbumcovers.TheytellmeIcandowhateverIwant,butit’sverydifficultformetoexplainthattherackofarecordstoreisnotwhereIwishtoexpressmyself.Goaska20-year-old.

Forme,it’sreallyimportanttostaywithinthetermsofyourownrelevance—whichmeansdon’tbepermanently18.Shiftyourpointofengagementtothatwhichisrelativetoyou.Trytofindworkthathasmeaning.Youhavetohelpinvestmeaningintothework.Anditisverydifficulttoinvestmeaninginsomethingthatdoesn’thavemeaningtoyou.Andthatreallyisthekey:

You’ve got to like what you’re doing, and then you do it well. You’ve got to like what you’re doing, and you have to put meaning into it for others.


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emily oberman & Bonnie siegler / number ��

The first time I met Emily Oberman and Bonnie Siegler was in 1999. I had been a devoted admirer of their work for as long as I could remember, so I invited them to speak at a conference I was organiz-ing. Remarkably, they agreed.

Emily and Bonnie are best friends and partners in Number 17, a design firm creating work for televi-sion, film, print, and the Web. But they are also indi-vidually known for influential work they created prior to starting their firm; most notably Emily’s collabora-tions with Tibor Kalman at the legendary design firm M&Co and Bonnie’s breakthrough designs at VH1. So when I first met them, I was struck by their age. How could such fresh-faced women be so accomplished and so young? The answer is easy: by the sheer force of their unique talent.

These witty, stylish women are the brains behind the newly reinvigorated Colors magazine, spots for Nickelodeon and MTV, the opening titles for SaturdayNightLive, and the design for Luckymagazine, to name just a few standouts.

I talked with the duo in their TriBeCa studio, an environment showcasing unusual collections that include every paper phone message they have received. But most dazzling was their rapport: It was palpable. They joyfully finished each other’s sentences and interrupted each other as Bonnie talked about designing her Bat Mitzvah invitation and Emily shared a list of things she loves.



When was the last fight you had?emily .Itwastoday.

What did you fight about?emily .Whethertomeetwithyouornot.

What happened? Where was the fight?bonnie .Onthestreet.emily .Bonnieaskedifwecouldmoveourmeeting

withyoutoFriday,andIsaidno.Andthenshesaid,“Whynot?”andIexplainedwhynot.

bonnie .Inaveryangryway.emily .Itwassuchamarried-couplefight.Ithad

nothingtodowithaprojectorwithcreativity.bonnie .Wewerealreadylateforameeting,and

wewerecomingfromanothermeeting,andwehadtoomuchtodo,and...

emily .That’swhatitwas.Thekidsweredrivinguscrazy!

So was the fight resolved?bonnie .Yes.Wewentintothemeeting,webothhad

goodideasandthatwasthat.Over.

You didn’t have to analyze what went wrong, check to see if everything was okay; make sure you still love each other?

bonnie .No.emily .No.

What happens when you have a creative disagreement?

bonnie .Wehaveveryheateddiscussionswhenwedon’tagreecreatively,whenoneofuslikesonethingandoneofuslikessomethingelse.

emily .Ifwe’reworkingonsomething,andwecomeupwithideasbutpreferdifferentsolutions,theywillbothgototheclient.Butifoneofuswouldn’tbehappyifthatdirectionmovesforward,thenwehaveaconflict.


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bonnie .Ifoneofusfeelsthatstronglyaboutnotdoingsomethingandoneofusfeelsstronglyaboutdoingit,thingscangetprettyheated.

emily .Wehavearule:Ifoneofusfeelsstronglyagainstsomething,itwon’tgoforward.Thisensuresthatnothingcomesoutoftheofficethatwehate.Neitheroneofuscanhateanythingthatcomesoutofhere.

bonnie .Thereisalsoafinelinebetweendislikeand“dislikestronglyenough”tohaveafightabout.

emily .Right.

What made you decide to have a partnership as opposed to going out on your own individually?

emily .Itistoohard.Iwouldn’tbeabletodoitonmyown.Designisreallyhardtodoalone.

bonnie .Also,whenwestartedNumber17,wewere22.

Who made the first overture to start a partnership?bonnie .Wetalkedaboutitfrom...emily .Fromdayone...bonnie .Fromthefirstdaywemet.

Was it love at first sight?bonnie .Yes.Wewentouttolunch,atCozyBurger,

andtalkedaboutstartingourownbusinessthreehoursafterwemet.

How much compromise do you feel is involved in your day-to-day relationship?

emily .Iwasjusttalkingtomyhusband,PaulSahre,aboutthis.PaulisMr.LoneWolf.Hedoesn’tknowhowwedo“this.”BonnieandIbothhaveegos.Webothhavebigideas.Iguessthereisafairamountofcompromiseinvolvedinourpartnership,butIdon’tmind.WhenBonnieandItrulycollaborate,perhapsI’llhavetheidea,andshedoesthedesign,andthenIaddanotherpieceoftext,andsheaddsanimage.

e M i Ly o B e r M A n & B o n n i e s i e G L e r / n u M B e r ��



When we toss things back and forth, there is no compromise at all. That is when it’s magic.

Nowthisisnotthewayweworkoneveryproject.Someprojectsreflectoneofusmorethantheother.

bonnie .Butit’sdefinitelythebestwhenweplaytogether.Insteadofoneofuslookingovertheother’sshoulder...

emily ....whichIalsoloveforadifferentreason.Whenoneofusisthedesignerandtheotheristheartdirector,orwhenoneofusisworkingmorecloselyonaprojectwithoneoftheotherdesignersintheoffice,thatcanbewonderfulaswell.

bonnie .Buttheflipsideofcompromiseiswhenyouhaveablankpageandyouhavenoideawhattoputonit.Orperhapssomethingisthere,butyoucan’ttakeitanyfurtheroryou’velookedatittoolong,andyou’restuck.Atthosetimes,youhavesome-one—someonewhoisnotworkingforyou,butisapartnerwithyouandabetterversionofyour-self—tohanditoffto.So,yes,sometimesyouhavetocompromiseabit,butthebenefitsfaroutweighthecompromises.

emily .Ilovenothavingtogointoameetingoralec-turealone.IlovethatifIforgetmylines,Bonnieistheretopickthemup;orifI’mfumblinginameet-ing,Bonniecansaysomethingtodistractthem.

bonnie .A“Hey,lookoverthere!”thing.

In a lot of design studio partnerships, it’s rare for the partnership to be two designers.

emily .Yes.

It’s also rare for the partnership to be two designers who clearly consider the other to be a better version of herself.

bonnie .Ithinkthatcanbeattributedtothefemale–femaledynamic.Menaremoreegomaniacalin


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thisarrangement,andwomenaremoreinsecure.Inthemalepartnershipsweknow,theconflictisaboutoneofthemfeelingthathedoesmorework,whiletheotherpartnerisnotholdinghisweight.Withus,it’stheopposite.

emily .Ourbiggestfightstendtobewhenoneofusfeelslikewe’renotpullingourownweight!Iwillthink,“OhmyGod,Bonnieisdoingevery-thing,Iamdoingnothing,Iamfuckingupsobadly,Ihavegottodobetter.”Ineverthink,“OhmyGod,Bonnieisfuckingup,soI’vegottodomore.”Ineverthinkthatway.

I find that in many relationships, whether they are love relationships or business partnerships, there is one person who does this and the person who does that. As long as you’re the person that is the sole owner of that, and nobody encroaches in your territory, there seems to be a lot more success.

bonnie .Ithinkwehaveacertainamountofthat.emily .Idotoo.bonnie .Weeachownadifferentpartofthebrain.

Which part of the brain do each of you own?bonnie .Iamdefinitelymorelogical.Ihandlemore

ofthebusinessissues,whichIenjoy.Iactuallylikethebusinesssideofthebusiness.It’seasyforme,anditusesadifferentpartofmybrain.

emily .Iamtheoppositeofwhateverlogicalis.bonnie .Abstract.emily .Iamalsotheonewhoismoreouttherein

thedesigncommunity,talkingtopeople.IthinkI’mmorecomfortabletalkingonstagethanBonnieis.IthinkthatI’mmoreextroverted.

bonnie .Definitely,definitely,definitely.

How comfortable and confident are you in your own personal judgments?

emily .Bonnieisprettycomfortableinherownjudgment.




bonnie .Iam.emily .AndIamlessconfident.Iamthisveryweird

blend,whichisannoying...bonnie .Soyoucanimaginehowitistome.emily .Ihavethishugeego,andIamincredibly

insecureatthesametime.Bonnie’sconfidenceisdaunting.

In what way?bonnie .Idon’tknowwhatitis.Here,intheoffice,

Idon’thavearearviewmirror.Wesendinwork,andIdon’tlookback.

emily .Shehasnoregrets.Sheregretsnothing.bonnie .Butathome,withmyfamily,myrearview

mirrorisoneofthoseextragiantones.

You differentiate?bonnie .Ohyes.emily .Bonnie’sinsecuritiesmakeherseemmore

confident.

How?bonnie .Idon’tknow,butI’lltryandexplainit.

Emilycanveryeasilyadmitifshe’safraidthatshemaynotlookgoodinsomethingshe’swearing.Thatisaveryeasythingforhertosay.IalsocanfeelthatIdon’tlookgoodinsomething,butIfeelsoooobadaboutitthatIwon’tbeabletoadmitit.Soeventhoughtheemotionisidentical,thebehaviorisnot.Iwouldbetooinsecuretoarticu-latehowIfeel.

So it comes off as confidence?bonnie .Perhaps.Butveryoftenthat’ssimplynot

thecase.

How do you know when you’ve created a design that’s good?

bonnie .It’sthedumb-assidea.


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The dumb-ass idea?bonnie .It’stheideathat’ssoobvious;it’stheidea

that’sbeensittingthereallalong.It’sjustthere:Waitingforustopluckitoutoftheair.

How do you pluck things out of the air? How do they come to you?

bonnie .Wepluckthemoutoftheair.

How do you find ideas? How do they magically appear?bonnie .Wearepeoplefirstanddesignerssecond.

Weareluckyinthatmostofourclientscometousfor“us.”

emily .Wearetheaudienceformostofourclients.bonnie .Oftentimes,wearetheaudience,andwe

knowhowwewouldliketobespokento.Thishelps,thoughit’snotaprerequisite.

emily .Butyou’renotansweringthequestion.bonnie .Whatisthequestion?emily .Cananyoneanswerthisquestion?Sometimes

ithappensinaflash,andsometimesyouworkandworkandreallydwellonthings,andsuddenly,youhaveaforest-through-the-treestypeofexperi-ence.Youworkandwork,andyoucan’tseetheforestthroughthetrees,andyougocrazy,andthensuddenly,flash!Thereistheforestthroughthetrees.

bonnie .Wealsoincludecontentinourdesignthinking.Inpresentingourdesignsolutions,wecomeupwithideasforcontent.Wealwaysdothat.Always.It’spartofthewaywethink.

emily .Westilldowhattheclienthasaskedfor,butwewillalwayspresenttheideawethinktheclientshouldgowithaswell.

You said that most of your clients come to you for “you,” and that you are the audience. But you’ve been together now for 14 years, so “you as you” has changed. Has your type of client changed? Are they 14 years older?

emily .No,notreally.




So perhaps you’re known for doing a certain kind of work?

bonnie .Thetypeofworkwedoisverybroad.Wedesignbooks,wedesignhotels,andwedoalotofworkintelevision.

So are your clients coming to you because you’re their audience, or are they coming to you because you’re good at what you do?

emily .Perhapsthey’recomingtousbecauseofthewaythatwethinkandhowwe’reabletofullyrelatetoanaudience—theiraudience—inthebroadestpossiblesense.

When did you both know that you wanted to be graphic designers?

emily .IalwayssaythatIwentintothefamilybusiness.Myfatherwasagraphicdesigner;mymotherwasapainterandanillustrator.Therewasalwaystypographyaroundme.Therewerealwaysphotographs.Allofmyparents’friendsweregraphicdesignersorphotographersorillustrators.Now,myparentsarepleasedaspunchbecauseI’mtheonlyoneoutofalltheirfriends—outofallthekidsoftheirfriends—whodoesn’tneedtoexplainwhatIdo.Becausetheyallknow.Sotheyarevery,veryhappy.

Bonnie, What about you? When did you discover that you wanted to be a graphic designer?

bonnie .Weshouldhaveansweredeachother’squestions,becauseIknewyouranswer,andI’msurethatyouknowmine.

bonnie .[ToEmily]WhichanswerdoyouthinkI’mgoingtosay?

emily .Little Blue and Little Yellow?

What are little blue and little yellow?bonnie .It’sachildren’sbook.ByLeoLionni.Ican’t


�0�

eventellyouwhy,butasasix-year-old,Iwasobsessedwithit.Itdidsomethingtome.Ihadneverseenanythinglikeit,andIstillloveit.Becauseofthatbook,IdesignedmyownBatMitzvahinvitation,eventhoughIdidn’tknowwhatIwasdoing.Ihadto.

Do you still have the invitation? Why did you want to design it?

bonnie .Istillhaveit.ItwasjustsomethingthatIhadtodo,I’mnotsurewhy.IhadgottenotherBatMitzvahinvitations,andwhenIsawthem,IknewIhadtodesignone,butIdidn’tknowtherewasaprofessioncalled“graphicdesign.”Ididn’tknowanything.Andthen,inhighschool,IdiscoveredAndyWarhol.AndIbecameobsessedwithhim.Andthen,asIreadaboutAndyWarhol,Islowlylearnedtherewasaprofessioncalledgraphicdesign.Itseemedtofitallmyweirdinterests.

For example?bonnie .WhenIwentonfamilytrips,Iwas

obsessedwithallthehotelamenities,andIhadnoideawhy.Islowlylearnedaboutwhatseemedlikeafetishandrealizedtherewasanameforit.Itwasgraphicdesign!Ittookyears,butonceIknew,thatwasit.

As designers, what are you afraid of ? [Silence.]bonnie .Areyouwaitingformetoanswer?emily .Shejustdid. [Laughter.]bonnie .Ihaveananswer.Mygreatestfearisthat

someonewillrealizethattheyshouldn’tbepayingattentiontothatwomanbehindthecurtain.MygreatestfearisthatsomeonewillrealizethatI’masham.Ithinkthisisoneofthethingsthatkeepsmeworking.Oh!Andflying.Iamafraidofflying.



H o w T o T H i n k L i k e A G r e AT G r A p H i C D e s i G n e r�0�

What do you love most about graphic design?bonnie .Everything.Graphicdesignallowsme

touseeverypartofmybrain.Icouldn’tdoany-thingelse.

How do you use every part of your brain? bonnie .Asdesigners,wegettodotheanalysisand

theproblem-solving.Wegettotakeablankpieceofpaperandtransformitintosomethingelse.Somethingmagical.Wegettoworkwithinterest-ingclients.Weuseourmanagementskillsandinterpersonalrelationshipskillsandmathskills.Everything.

emily .Iloveitwhenwegettoputourtalenttogooduse,andwhenwegettoworkonsomethingthatchangeshowpeoplethink.Iloveitwhenwegettoworkonsomethingthathelpspeople.Ilovewhenwegettouseourskillsinordertohelpchangetheworld.Oneotherthing:Ilovethatwitheverynewprojectweundertake,welearnsomething.Welearnsomethingneweveryday.Howluckyisthat?


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James victore

The first time I saw James Victore, he was wearing a gorilla suit. And no, he wasn’t trick-or-treating. He was headlining a talk for the New York chapter of the AIGA, the professional association for design. Titled “Mad As Hell,” the presentation was classic Victore: brash, brilliant, and unbridled. Victore didn’t focus on his impressive client roster or his singular talent, but rather crafted a presentation that discussed the designer as a master communicator who had an obligation to inspire social change.

The second time I saw Victore, he and Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg were speaking at an event for students involved in an AIGA mentorship program. Unfettered by conventional norms, James addressed the students with raw honesty, enthusiasm, and quite a few expletives. In fact, I remember that one AIGA staffer kept track of the number of times James used the word “fuck,” as she planned an exit strategy from her job. She needn’t have worried. Not only did the students give Victore a standing ovation, they spent hours after the event clamoring for the signed posters he was giving out.

James is a master designer with a kind, gener-ous, and engaging spirit. The day we met, he picked me up on his motorcycle for a trip to his studio. We spent the rest of the afternoon talking about the responsibility of designers in today’s world, creative freedom, and his parents’ disappointment that their son didn’t become a nurse.



Okay, just to get us started, tell me about your very first creative memory.

HaveyoueverreadMy Name is Asher Lev?

No.It’sgreat.InthebookMy Name is Asher Lev,theauthor’sdadisarabbi.Hisfather’sfatherwasarabbi.Hisgrandfatherwasarabbi.He’ssupposedtobearabbi.Buthesees.

What does he see?Asayoungchild,theauthorstartsseeingperspec-tiveandshadows,andheexplainsthatshiftinthisbook.Hebecomesanartist.Heexplainshowhewasborntobeanartist.Heexplainstheprocess.

IsawthishappenwithmysonLucawhenhewasaboutthree.Wewereinthekitchen,wheretherewasalampoverhead,andIcouldseehimmovinghishead;Iexplicitlyrememberthewhitetableandthewhitemilkandwatchinghimrealizethatasyoumove,yourperspectivechanges.WhenIreadMy Name is Asher Lev,Irealizedthesamething.Irememberthat.AndItelleverybody,any-bodywhoasks,Iwasborntodothisjob.Iwasborntobeadesigner.Thisismydharma.

When you were young, how did you describe what it is you wanted to do in the future?

Iwasraisedonamilitarybase.Therewasnorealoptionofbeinganartist.Youcouldn’tbeanartistorawriterbecausepeoplejustdidn’tdothat.IcamefromasmalltowninupstateNewYork.Iremembercomingoutofhighschoolandpeoplesaying,“Well,Ihearthere’sgoodmoneyinnursing.Youshouldgointonursing.”

James Victore, R.N.Yes!Ithoughtitwasludicrous,butIstilldidn’tknowthatIcouldbeadesignerforaliving.Nevertheless,Idrewconstantly.Iwasalways


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makingupwordplaysandbadpunsandcreatingnewlyricsforsongs.I’dmakeuplyricstoLedZeppelinsongsthatIdidn’tunderstand.

TheonlypersonIknowinthebusinesswhothinkslikethisisEmilyOberman.SheandIboththriveonwordassociation.Wegettriggered—bzzzzzz—andoffwegotofindalltheseotherassociations.Andthat’showIwork.That’swhatIdowithmyjob.

Do you remember the moment you made the decision to become a designer?

Well,whenIfirstgotoutofhighschool,Ididn’tgetintoanyofmyuniversitiesofchoicebecausemygradesweren’tgoodenough.

What were you intending to study?Engineeringorphysics.IbecameaphysicsmajorattheStateUniversityofNewYorkatPlattsburgh.Ididhorribly,andIwasaskednottocomebackforthesecondsemester.

You were kicked out? Yes,Iwaskickedout.SoIwenttoworkformyfather.Hehadaskishop.Ialsowaitedtables.AndIsleptinmycar.Iwascryingalot.Itwaslike,“Whatthefuck?”Thenmydadgavemeacardfromsome-onewhocamebytheskishop.Hewasfromadesignandadvertisingagency.ThiswassomethingI’dneverheardof.SoIputsomedrawingsinafolder,andIwenttotheguyandhewaslike,“Yeah,okay.Weneedsomehelp.”Hehadatinylittleadvertis-ingagency,andtheymademenusandfliersfordrycleaners.That’swhattheydid.Butherecognizedsomethinginme.

Throughhim,Igottheideatoapplytoartschool.SoIappliedtoRISD,theMuseumofFineArtsinBoston,theSchooloftheArtInstituteofChicago,Pratt,SVA,andCooperUnion.TheonlyschoolIdidn’tgetintowasCooperUnion.Imade

J A M e s v i C T o r e



thedecisiontogotoSVAprimarilybecauseIwantedtogotoNewYorkCity:thecityofvision,thecityoflight.ThatwaswhereIwantedtobe.

Ileftwith350bucksinmypocket,andIshowedupatschool.ButwhenIwasthere,Iques-tionedwhetherornotIbelongedthere.Icouldn’thelpbutthinkthatIwasnotlikethesepeoplearoundme.

Why weren’t you like them?IjustfeltthatIdidn’tbelong.IwaslivingintheYMCAon34thstreet.Myclassesweren’tthatinteresting,andIwassupposedtobestudyingartanddesigninNewYork—andIjustwasn’tthatinterested.SoIdroppedout.

What did you do then?Ihadoneinstructorinmysecondyear,thegraphicdesignerPaulBacon.HegavemeaD.ButwhenIdroppedoutofschool,IwenttohisofficeandsaidthatI’dliketoapprentice.Ididn’tevenknowwhatitmeant,butIwantedtoapprenticewithhim.Helookedatmeandputhispendownandtoldmethatnoonehadeveraskedhimthatbefore.Thenheagreedtoletmedoit.Ilearnedahugelessonatthatmoment:Youhavegottoask.Igotthatapprenticeshipbecausenooneelsehadeverasked.

SoIstartedhangingoutinPaul’sstudio,look-ingoverhisshoulder.I’dgetthereinthemorningandsweep;Ididn’treallyhaveanyjobs.AndthenI’dhangout.Whenadeskbecameavailable,Itriedtodosome“real”design.ThreemonthsafterIdroppedoutofSVA,Ihadputtogetheraportfoliowiththreefakebookjackets.Istartedshowingmyportfolio,andIgothiredrightoffthebat.I’vebeenworkingeversince.

What do you do when you have a client who gives you negative feedback?


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Weareprofessionals.Wedonotcareaboutnega-tivefeedback.

There are some designers who would say, “Do it my way or bye-bye.”

No.No,no,no,no.Thisiswhatwedoforaliving.Theunspokenpartofwhatwedoiscompromise.Clientsdon’tjustcometomeandsay,“JamesVictore,he’stheauteur,we’lllethimdowhathewants.”Ihaveverylittleofthat.Andthefunnythingis,whenIwasayoungTurkandtryingtopushmyelbowsoutaswideaspossible,Ihadtheopportu-nity.Iknewaguyintown,PierreBernard.Iknewofhisreputation,soIsearchedhimoutandarrangedtomeethim.HeisanamazingFrenchdesignerfromGrapus,adesigncollectivethatbrokeupin1989.

Hespentanafternoonwithme,whichwasunheardof,sinceIwasanobody.AsIwasshowinghimmywork—agreetingcardIwasdoingatthetime—IbraggedthatIhadanamazingclientwhogavemecompletecreativefreedom.Helookedatmyworkandsaid,“Sometimescompletecreativefreedomisnotagoodthing.”Thatwasexcellent.

Idon’treallywantcompletecreativefree-dom.AlotofpeoplelookatmyworkandthinkImusthavecompletefreedom,butthat’snotwhatIdo.SaulSteinbergcouldn’tentertaintheideaofworkingforaclient.PaulRandcould.Heneededaclient.Heneeded“TheJob.”WhenIworkedforThe New York Timesforashortstint,IcalledSaulSteinbergtodoaproject,andhesaidtome,“Letmegetthiscorrect.Youwantmetoillustratesome-bodyelse’sidea?Itseemstherearetwoartistsonthisproject.”

Do you consider your work to be good?Iconsidermyworkgood.Ienjoydoingit,whichhelpsalot.Unfortunately,Igetalotoffeedback,constantly,frompeoplewhowritemeaboutmywork.ButIknowwhenI’m“givingonefrom




columnA,onefromcolumnB.”Overall,Ithinkmyworkisprettygood,butIdon’tthinkit’sgreat.

What do you mean by “giving one from column A and one from column B”?

Therulehereistherearejobsyoudofor“god,”andtherearejobsyoudoformoney.Itrytoapproacheverythingasa“godjob”—lowercaseg.Atthebegin-ningofaproject,Iask,“Whatarewegoingtodo,andhowarewegoingtodoit?Howarewegoingtomakeapersonfallinlove?”Andwhenwestartget-tingquestionablefeedbackaboutwhatwe’vedone,wehavetorealizeit’snotalwayspossibletodothegodjob.That’swhenIknowwejusthavetogetitdoneandgetpaid.

How do you know when something you’ve designed is great?

Idon’t.Quitefrankly,Idon’t.SometimesIthinksomethingisawesome,andeveryoneelsethinksit’scrap.

How confident are you in your own judgment or assessment of things?

Lessandlessastimegoeson.Lessandless.I’mwrongalotmorethanIthink.Andthat’swhyIhaveotherpeopletocheckme,likemywife,Laura,andmyson.AsIprogressandgetolder,Iwantmyworldtogetbiggerandbiggerandbigger,notsmallerandsmallerandsmaller.ButIfindthatittakesconstanteffort.I’mnotagoodjudgeofmyworkorotherpeople’s.Especiallyotherpeople’s!

What do you worry about in your life?Professionally,Idon’treallyhaveanyworries.Any.IlikewhatIdo.ButIamworriedaboutwhatthestateoftheprofessionwillbeinthefuture.I’mworriedaboutthestateoftheworld.Myconcernnowistomakealittlebitofmoney.Andforthefirsttimeinmylife,Ifeelguiltyaboutit.


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Why do you feel guilty about it?Inregardtothestateoftheworld.Lauraiscur-rentlyreadingCharlesDickens’A Christmas Carol.Inthebook,when[Jacob]Marley’sGhostcomestoScrooge,Scroogesays,“Butyouwerealwaysagoodmanofbusiness,Jacob!”“Business!”criestheGhost.“Mankindwasmybusiness.Thecommonwelfarewasmybusiness.Charity,mercy,forbear-ance,andbenevolencewereallmybusiness.Thedealingsofmytradewerebutadropofwaterinthecomprehensiveoceanofmybusiness.”ThisiswhatIworryabout.

IlikewhatIdo,andIseemtohaveareputa-tionforaltruismandtellingthetruth;butatthesametime,allthatworkIdoforfree.OrIpayforitwithmyownmoney.AndnowI’mworriedaboutmakingalivingformyfamily.AndthisbothersmebecauseIdon’tknowhowtodoboth.AndIwantahotrod!

I was just reading about Nan Kempner and her desire to have nice things.

IrememberTiborusedtosay,“Iwanttotaketaxis.”

You mentioned that you were worried about the future of the design business?

ThebusinessasIknowit.TheInternetischangingthingsinthesamewaythattheinventionofinkonpaperdid.Andthereisthiswonderful,funnyquestionthatpeopleliketoaskallthetime:“Arepostersdead?”It’slikeaskingTwylaTharp,“Isdancedead?”Peopletrytoreorganizeandrenamethingsandchangethemandqualifyandquantifythem.Ijustwantthespiritofdesigntoremain.

I feel now the way Tibor did: People have not fucked with the printed page as much as we still can.

Iwantthoseopportunities.ButIthinkthoseopportunitiesgetfewerandfewer.



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Andthere’stoomanyofus.Buttherearen’tenoughcrackpotsandartistsinthebusiness—they’reallMBAs.

Who do you think right now is a crackpot and an artist in the business?

Anyofthedesignerswhoare50andolder.Theywerearoundbeforecomputers.Theywereworkingwiththeirhands.Mostyoungerdesignersdon’tdothat.

You work both on the computer and with your hands. Are you equally comfortable with both mediums?

No,I’mdreadfulonthecomputer.

How do you know when a project is done, aside from a deadline?

IaskedPatDunihothatquestion,becausehecoulddrawlikeamotherfucker.Itwasbeautiful.Iaskedhimhowheknewwhenhewasdone.Andhesaid,“Well,youhaveabigpieceofpaperlikethis.Andyoustartinthemiddleandyoufillitoutandwhenyoureachtheedgeofthepaper,you’redone.”

Knowingwhenyou’redoneisessential.Thatiswheremostpeoplefalter.Ithinkwe’resoinlovewiththefactthatwecandothisthingcalleddesign,andwhenwegettheopportunity,wejustwanttodoitsomuch!Especiallywhenyougetprobonoopportunities.Thenot-for-profitstuffistheshitbecauseit’souropportunitytogooffandgetreallycreative.

Butknowingwhenyou’redoneishard.Thethingthat’sgreataboutthisprofession—

anddoingitwell—isthatit’slikemedicine.Doctorscanseeapatientgetsickanddie,ortheycanhelpthemgetbetter.Wecandothatwithourbusiness,toacertainextent.Youknowyou’vedoneagoodjobwhenyoucanseepositivechange.Thatisthemostawesomefeelingintheworld.


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You mentioned that a lot of people write and tell you how much they’ve been impacted by your work. What do you think touches people so profoundly?

Idon’tknow.IgotamessagefromsomeonethismorningtellingmehelikedthewayItoldthetruth.

How do you think you tell the truth?IthinkIeithergettheopportunityorIgolookingforit.SometimesIhavetogodiggingforit.Therearesurface—veneer—solutionstodesignproblems,andthat’sappropriateifyou’retalkingbullshit.Buttogettothetruth,youhavetopusheverythingaside.Everything—andthengetdowntothatoneperfectlittlegem.

How do you know when it’s a gem?Italktomystudentsaboutthatallthetime.

It’s about whittling. It’s about taking something and whittling and whittling and getting it sharp and perfect. Then you’ve got something.

Do those things come instantly after all the whittling away?

No,alotofthetimeitcomesasasurprise.It’shardwork.It’sthetimewhenI’msittingatthetable,andI’vebeenworkingonsomethingforhoursandhoursandIcomeupwithsomethingandImakemyselflaugh.That’swhatIdo.AndI’llaskLauratocomeandlookatit.Andshe’lleithersay,“That’sfunny,”orshesaysit’sfunnyandshelaughs.Whenshedoesthat,IknowI’mgoodasgold.

Is it about being funny, or is it about making a connection to something that might not have been done before?

Yes,it’sdefinitelyfindinganotherwaytosaysomething.It’saboutrealizingthatyouhavekept




somethinginyourmentalfilesforever,andnowyou’regoingtotakeitout.

Do you think it takes a special type of mentality for a viewer to love your work?

Idon’tthinkso.Ithinkittakesaspecialtypeofmentalitytonotgetuptightaboutmywork,aspecialtypeofmentalitytohaveasenseofhumoraboutit.

I’ve read that people believe that in your work, you’re able to communicate what other people are afraid to say. Is that something that you’ve consciously worked on being able to do?

No.I’mjustinappropriate.That’swhoIam.Ihaveafoulmouth,andIlikeoff-colorjokes—butI’mnotaboorish,Shakespeare’sRichardkindofcharacter.

How would you describe yourself ?IliketothinkthatI’mstrongandquicktojudge.Butatthesametime—similartowhenIamtalkingtomyson—Iamextremelystern,butfulloflove.

How content are you?Not.Neverhavebeen,neverwillbe.Idon’tthinkit’spossible—unfortunately.It’ssomethingIwant.

Do you think that’s what fuels you?Yes.IwakeupinthemorningknowingI’vegottostartat5or5:30.I’vegottogetdownstairs,I’vegottogetworking.I’vegottositonthecouchandstartstudying,orI’vegottogorun.AndIdon’tdothatbecauseit’snaturallyinme.IdoitbecauseIhavetoforcemyselftodoit,becauseIknowthatifIdon’t,I’llbeawreck.

What do you mean by that?Ipushmyselfreallyhard.Ilivebylists.Ihavetoday’slists,Ihavemyshort-termlist,Ihavemy


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long-termlist.ItmakesmeimmeasurablyhappywhenIcrosssomethingoffoneofmylists.

Are you a control freak?Ihavetobe.Ithinkweallhavetobeinthisbusi-ness.Itrynottoshowitinmywork,butIthinkIam.Definitely.

If you didn’t push yourself so hard, what would happen?Idon’tknow.Idon’tknow.Probablynothing.Ijustlikedoingit.ItmakesmefeellikeI’mprogressing.ItmakesmefeellikeI’mgettingthingsdone.IfIcouldinclude“brushteeth,”itwouldbeonthelist.Butit’snot.SometimesIrecognizethatI’mnotdoingsomethingonthelistbecauseoffear;andIseethatinmyselfandI’mlike,“Nope.Doit.Doit.Doit.”

Do you consider yourself to be afraid of a lot of things?Yes.I’mafraidofeverything.Iam.ButIdothemanyway.Thisismydharma.ThisiswhatIwasmeanttodo.Ijustwanttodoagoodjob.



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John Maeda

The graphic designer John Maeda is best known as a multimedia artist, teacher, and theorist. A longtime professor at the storied MIT Media Lab, Maeda has helped to invent the language, grammar, and technol-ogy of digital interactivity. His work has been shown in single-person exhibitions at such prestigious insti-tutions as France’s Fondation Cartier. As part of his professorial responsibilities, he has mentored a legion of students who themselves have gone on to become significant figures in the field.

Maeda’s work and research now focuses in part on simplifying complex systems, and he is on a quest to whittle down the sometimes bewildering intricacies of software and interactivity in an effort to “humanize” technology. Reducing things to a mini-mum is perhaps a natural reaction to the seeming complexity of his own life. In addition to his duties at MIT, Maeda is father of five daughters, writes two blogs, and recently finished an MBA. It would seem that Maeda has little time for anything else, and yet he continues to create art, write books, consult with businesses, and advise organizations such as the Smithsonian’s Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum.

In our discussion, John talks about his favorite typeface, how it’s more interesting having a friend than a project, Christina Aguilera’s pop songs, and what Paul Rand taught him about making lots of money.



What was your first creative memory?Myfirstcreativememorywasworkingwithcardboard.

In what way?WhenIwasgrowingup,myfamilydidn’thavealotofmoney.Welivednearatofufactory,andwehadalotofcardboardboxesthere.Iusedtoplaywiththemandmakearchitectureandweapons.

When you were very little, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Iwantedtobeadentist.

A dentist! Why is that?Becauseoneofourfamilyfriendswasadentist,andmyfatherthoughtitwouldbeagoodcareerforme.WealsoknewanaerospaceengineerwholivedinSeattle,whereBoeingislocated.Theseweremyinfluences.

So when did you first realize you wanted to be a designer?

WhenIwasasophomoreatMIT.PeopletoldmeIhadaknackforvisualpresentationsandmakingicons.Andtheytoldmeaboutthisfieldcalled“design.”Iwaslike,hmmmm,whatisthat?SoIwentoutandboughtabookonadvertising.Itwasoneofthosecompendiums,thoseannuals.

Do you remember who wrote it? Itwasoneofthesestrange,unreadableJapanesetitlesthatIsawinastoreinDallas,Texas.ButIalsofoundabookbyHerbLubalin,andIwaslike,wow,thisisreallyclever!He’smessingwiththetype!That’showIgotcuriousaboutthediscipline.

In applying to MIT, what did you aspire to be?Really,Ihadnoidea.Whenyouseekidsnowinhigh


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school,theyaresocentered,andtheyunderstandtheworldsowell.IhadnoideawhatIwantedtodo.IjustknewthatIwantedtodosomethingbetterthanmakingtofu.

If someone didn’t know anything about you, and they asked what you do for a living, how would you describe yourself ? Would you describe yourself as a graphic designer?

IthinkI’vealwaysgrappledwiththat.Basically,IsayI’maprofessor.

You typically work with a lot of other people. Do you also work alone?

Iactuallyworkaloneingeneral.That’swhyI’mabadrolemodelasadesigner.

Why is that?BecauseImakeeverythingbymyself.Idesigneverythingbymyself.Ishootallthephotographs,Idoallthecropping.ImanipulatealltheelementsinQuark,Photoshop,etc.Idon’tknowhowtohaveassistancebecausewhenIwasstartingout,Ithoughtallthesepeopledidthesethingsbythemselves.Whenyoumeetfamousdesigners,yourealizethattheyhavegiantteamsthatpumpouttheworkfromthebasicart-directedformtheyaregivenbythefamousdesigner.Ineverknewaboutthis,soIalwaysart-directmyself.

Do you ever work by hand, or do you primarily work with technology?

Oh,both,definitely.Ioftensketchonpaper—Ifeelthatit’smostnatural.Thecomputeralwayscomesattheveryend.

Do you find that you have any process for initiating your design work?

Iusedtobeveryheavilyairplane-bound.

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Airplane-bound?Iwasflyingonairplanesalot.Onanairplane,you’retrapped.Well,thiswasbeforeon-demandvideo.

On-demand video has changed your design process?Well,nowI’mtemptedtowatchsomething,butbefore,Iwouldsitthereanddrawbecausetherewasnothingelsetodo.Itwascrammed.I’mnotabigguy,soevenonsmall,confinedairplanes,IcouldgetseatswhereIwasabletodrawandcreateandthinkonpaper.Now,I’mjustlisteningtoPaulRand’sadvice.

Which is?Well,backwhenIwasastudent,Ivisitedhisstudioforoneday.Coincidentally,hisassistanthadn’tarrivedthatday,sohehadmeworkforhimforthatoneday.Itwasjustthetwoofus,andallofasudden,hegotveryquiet.Thenhesaid,“I’vegotsomethingreallyimportanttotellyou.”Nowremember,Ihadjustmethim.AndIasked,“What,whatdoyouhavetotellme?”Andhesaid,“Makelotsofmoney.”

That’s what he told you?Yes.Hemusthaveseenmylookofhorror,becauseheadded,“Ohno,don’tgetmewrong.Thethingsyoureallylovetodoinlifewillmakeyouabsolutelynomoney.Andthethingsthatdomakethemoneyforyouaredifferent.Thereisstuffthatiswork.Soyoudotheworktodowhatyoulovetodo.”Itmadesense.Wheneveryoustartsomethingwithoutcon-straints,it’salwaysbetter.Andwhenitbecomesajob,itchanges.It’sasimplephilosophy,Ithink.ButIalwaysgobacktothatsaying.Havingsomemoneygivesyouthefreedomtoexplorewhatyouwanttodo.Butearningmoneyisoftennotfreedom.

When you’re working on a project, how do you know if something you’re doing is good?


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Whenthetimerunsout.Ithinkit’sassimpleasthat.Ithinkallpeoplewhowork—allcreativepeoplewhomakethingsforotherpeople(thiscanbedesignersorcooksoranyone)—arehighlydependentontime.Youasktheclientwhentheyneeditby,andyouscaleyourtimeaccordingly.

Well, that would mean that you think that when the work is finished, it’s good.

WhenIsayit’sgood,it’sgoodenough.

How do you know if you have done something really brilliant?

Ineverfeelthatway.

Never?

I’ve never been happy with the work I’ve done. I wish I were. I’ve seen people who were happy. I think I’m always wondering what else the end result could have been.

Do you look back on your work and wish you had done a lot of things differently?

Idoalotofdifferenttypesofthings,andItrynottofocusonlookingbackbecauseitmakesmedepressed.

Do you find that you can assess your own work or are you highly dependent on other people’s opinions?

Ithinkthatanybodycanassesstheirownwork.Ialsothinkthatotherscanassessit,andthatopin-ionwillbevariedinmanyways.Mywifeismymostardentcritic.I’mluckytohavesuchacriticalpersoninmylife.She’lltellme,“Hey,youdidthatalready.”Soshe’salwaysbeenthereformeinthatway.Butinthegrandschemeofthings,onceaprojectisdone,thenextjobhappens.Theclientisbusy.You’rebusy.Maybeifyou’relucky,you’vemade

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adeeprelationship.That’sthemostimportantthing.I’mfindingrightnow,asyouage,workdoesn’tmat-terasmuch.Friendsmattermuchmore.It’smoreinterestinghavingafriendthanhavingaproject.

How confident are you in your own judgment?Notatall.Andthat’sanotherqualityIadmiredaboutPaulRand.WhenIwasworkingonFrom Lascaux to Brooklyn,therewassomethingthatIfoundthatlookedodd.Ithoughttheragdidn’tlookright.IshowedittoPaul,andItoldhimIcouldfixit.Andhesaid,“Whatdoyoumean?”Iasked,“Isn’titkindofoff?”Andhechangedhisposture,andhesaid,“IfIsayit’sright,it’sright.”AndIthoughtthatwasamazing.

Now,whenIteachstudents,Ialwaysremem-berthis.Itmakesithardtohavecritiques,though.OneofmystudentswaseducatedatYaleingraphicdesign.Hetoldme,“John,you’renevercriticalwithyourstudents.”AndIamnot.Maybethisisgood.Maybeit’sbad.ButIpersonallydon’tbelievethere’sgoodandbad.MaybeifImakeittotheageof82likePaulRand,Imighthavetherighttosay“whatisgood”andwhatisn’t.

Ithinktheroleofateacheristoimbueconfi-denceinstudents,toencouragethemtobecuriousandtotakechances.TheoneteacherthatinfluencedmemorethananyotherwasthefirstteacherwhomademefeellikeIcouldbesmart.

Were there other key influences?IcannotforgetwhenIwaslearningtypography,oneofmyteacherssatmedowninhisofficeandlecturedmeandtoldmehowIwouldneveramounttoanythingatallinmylife.Insomeways,Iappreci-atethatthishappenedbecauseitmademeevaluatewhatIwasdoing,andatthesametime,itmademerealizeIwouldneverwanttodothistosome-oneelse.


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Do you feel that there is any objectivity in assessing design?

Ithinktheonepointofobjectivity,asPaulRandalwayssaid,isrelevance.Notjustrelevancetomessage,butrelevancetoculturaltiming.Often-timesthatmeansit’sofftime.

Do you consider yourself to be more of an intuitive designer or more intellectual?

Iwassoinfluencedbythegridearlyon.Itwasuse-ful.ButthenIbegantoembracethe“whatthehell”kindofviewpoint.

Do you do a lot of research before you start a project?IthinkIshould.Ithink,though,Iamalwaysresearchingtheworldingeneral.Ialwayshaveacamera.I’malwayscuriousaboutthings.Evenwalkingacrossthestreet,thereissomuchtolearnbywhatyousee.Inthepuddles,inthesky,intheflowers,inthetrash.Everyperson’sworldisamuseum.

How many books do you read a year?Anincreasingnumber.WhichI’mnotsureisagoodthingorabadthing.

Why? Iusedtoreadverylittle.Iusedtoskimmore.AndnowIfindmyselfreadingmore,andyes,IdothinkIappreciatemore,butIalsothinkthatbyreadingmore,I’mdoingless.

Do you feel like you are very involved with or influenced by contemporary culture?

Yes,definitely.Butthat’sbecauseIhavekids.Andthekidsarealwaystellingmeabout“thelatest,”soIknowallthelatestpopsongs...

Anything that you would consider to be a favorite?Well,evenatmyage,I’maChristinaAguilerafan.I

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lovehersong“Fighter.”It’ssemi-autobiographical,butit’sallabouthowwhenshewasyoung,shewasmadefunofattheplaygroundforbeingdifferent.Inthesong,shebasicallythankseveryoneformakingherafighter.Ithinkit’sanempoweringmessage:Especiallyforgirls,whichisvery,veryimportant.

Would you consider yourself to be a control freak?I’mtryingtobemuchlessso.

So that means yes, but no. Yes,butno.Particularlyaroundpeople.Thesedays,I’mmoreinvolvedwithmanagerialissues.IseethatthesamesensitivityyoucanhavewithanA4sheetdoesnotapplytopeople,becausepeoplearenotonagrid.Peopledon’tbehaveperfectly.

How do you think most people would describe you?Idon’tknow.I’mnotsure.Itrynottocare,Iguess.Ithinkwhenyoustarttocare,youfixateandyouwanttochangetoomanythings.Adoctorfriendofminetoldmenevertogetyourbodyscanned.Theyhavethesemachinesforpeople,andtheycanscanyourbodyandtellyouwhat’swrongwithyou.She’sadoctorandshewarnedmetoneverdothis.Becauseyou’llalwaysfindsomethingwrong.Andonceyoufindsomethingwrong,you’regoingtogoafterit.Andoftentimes,goingafteritcandamageyouevenmore.Butit’shardnotcaringwhatpeoplethinkaboutyou.

That’s why I keep changing what I’m doing—to avoid criticism.

Do you ever worry?Worry?Yes,Iworry.Iworry.Iworryaboutmyhealth,always.Iworryaboutmyfamily.Idon’tworryabouttoomanyotherthings,though.Idon’tworryaboutworkorhowaprojectturnsout.


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Why not?Nomatterhowmuchyouworry,it’snotgoingtochangetheoutcome.Also,workisverycyclical.Sometimesyou’reup,andsometimesyou’redown.

Would you say that you’re confident about your work?Me?No,IthinkifIwere,IwouldstopdoingwhatI’mdoingandliveoffmylaurels.

Really?Yes.ButI’mnotconfident,soIkeeptryingsome-thingnew.

What’s your most favorite thing to do?Um,sleep.

What’s your favorite typeface? Favoritetypeface,nowthat’sanimportantquestion.Idon’tknowanymore.Ithinkthecorrectchoiceissomethingclassicthatnoonereallycaresabout,likeHelvetica.IthinkIlikemyownhandwritingthebest.Rightnow.

That’s interesting. Any least favorite typeface?Thetypefacedoesn’treallymatter,aslongasthetextisgood.Ilovetext.Justtextitself,insteadofthetype.Ithinkdesignersfailtorememberthat.

What do you mean?Theyfailtorememberthattextismorepowerfulthangraphics.

Why do you think that’s so?Becausetextistheultimateformofdistraction.Textisgoingthroughalltheseweirdlayersofourbraintotrytobecomeunderstood.Ifindthatinter-esting.Very,veryinteresting.

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paul sahre

One of the most telling details about Paul Sahre is the acronym of his studio’s name, Office of Paul Sahre, which is featured in a neon sign overlooking a sec-tion of New York’s Sixth Avenue. Ironic, humorous, and clever, the O.O.P.S. abbreviation embodies the spirit and witty sensibility of this incredibly talented graphic designer.

Paul does a wide range of both commercial and personal projects. His office is an eclectic work-space that incorporates elements of a design studio, a foosball arena, and a silk-screen shop. Like this space, Sahre’s design sensibility can’t be pinned down to one category. Silk-screening may be one dimension of his aesthetic panoply, but Sahre is equally expressive with illustration and photography, as evidenced in projects such as a book cover for Rick Moody, visual commen-taries for TheNewYorkTimes’ Op-Ed page, and his sublime illustrations for the jazz label Smalls Records.

Paul and I met in his studio, located above a Dunkin’ Donuts. We sat and drank coffee while Paul talked about his early wish to be a professional base-ball player, his desire to draw like Charles Schulz, and the insight he gained from watching designer Alexander Gelman perch a hot cup of coffee at the edge of a desk. After our interview, he taught me how to play foosball under the neon halo of the O.O.P.S. sign in his third-floor window.



What was your first creative memory, or when do you first remember being creative in your life?

Ialwaysdrew.Frommyearliestmemories,Iwastheartistinthefamily,constantlydrawing.

Do you remember your first drawing?ImadeaChristmasornament,shapedastheheadofabaseballplayer,thatisstillonmymom’stree.

When did you decide to go into graphic design?Ididn’t.Ithoughtitwascommercialart—myfatherhadtogooutandencouragehislazysontodosomethingwithhisfuture.SohewentoutandboughtabookaboutdesignandtoldmeIshouldgotoanaccreditedcollege.It’sfunny;mydad,theaerospaceengineer,wastheonewhopushedmeintographicdesign.

What was it about commercial art that interested you?WhenIwasakid,Iwantedtobeacartoonist.IwantedtobeCharlesSchulz,soIhadinventedthislamecharactercalledWentworth,ababoon.Ihaveacoupleofcomicsstillleftovertothisday.IthoughtIwasgoingtomakemyfortunebeinglikeCharlesSchulz.Irememberreadingthatheownedanicerink.Thatwassocool.Iwaslike,“Iwantanicerink.”

What was it about Peanuts or Charles Schulz that intrigued you? Do you have a sense of what it was that you admired?

Igrewupinaveryblue-collartowninupstateNewYork.Therewasn’talotofcreativityhappeningthereingeneral.Ithinkthethingaboutcomicsisthattheyareeverywhere.They’reinallthedailypapersandinbooks.They’reapartofpopularculture.Becomingacartoonistisanambitionthat’smoreofamassaspiration;itwasn’tdecidingIwasgoingtodosomethingbecauseIlovetodoit.Itwasmorelike,“Ohlook.EveryonewilllovemeifIdo


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thisfunnything!”ThereasonIdrewwasn’tneces-sarilybecauseIlovedrawing.

So what happened when you were in college?I’mnotreallysure.ButIthinkmygoingtoschoolwaslessachoiceandmoreofa“thisiswhatIhavetodo.”Iplayedalotofsportsasakid,andmyfirstchoiceforacareerwouldhavebeentobecomeaprofessionalbaseballplayer.Thatisprobablywheremypassionwasasakid.WhenIrealizedthatthiswasn’tgoingtohappen,IdecidedtoseeifIcouldtransformthisotherthingIdowellintoacareer.

And you chose Kent State?IchoseKentStateforacoupleofdifferentreasons.One,becauseofmyWonderBreadkindofupbring-ing.ItwasveryBrady Bunch,withmorearguments.Itwasafucked-upversionofThe Brady Bunch.Ijustwantedtogetthefuckoutofthere.IwantedtogofarenoughawaysoIcouldatleastgetawayandbeaway,butIstillfeltapulltobefairlyclose.Ohiowasaboutaten-hourdrive.WhenItoldmyparentsIwantedtogotoKentState,theirresponsewas,“KentState?Isn’tthatwheretheyshootstudents?”Andtobehonest,thatwaspartofthedraw.Itfeltlikearadicalplacetogotoschool.

Did Kent State have a good design department?TheKentStatedesignprogramwasrunbyCharlesWalker;hehadattendedtheUniversityofCincin-natiprogramasagraduatestudent.KentStatewasaSwiss-basedinternationalschool,agreatprogramthatwasveryrigorous.Icouldn’ttellyoutheactualnumbers,butIknowthereweremorethan100peoplewhostartedinmyfreshmanclass,andeightofusstaggeredacrossthefinishlineasseniors.

Charleswascrazy.Hewasverymilitantaboutdesign.Hefeltverystronglythatitwasirrespon-sibletosendpeoplethrougharevolvingdoorand

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thenreleasethemintotheprofessionwithoutbeingprepared.

IhadabsolutelynoideawhatIwasgettinginto.AndI’lltellyouwhat:Thethingthatgotmethroughinitiallywasmydrawingskills.

Looking back on it now, is there anything else you might have wanted to be?

No.IlovewhatI’mdoingnow.IbelievethatI’mdoingtheverythingIwasmeanttodo.Iknowitsoundscheesy.ButIthinkitworkedoutperfectly,eventhoughIdidn’thavemuchofaplan.Atsomepointduringcollege,Igotit.IfoundIcouldnotsatisfymythirstforinformation.Ipulledall-night-ers;Ifoundmyselfreadingallthetime,buggingprofessors,andgettinginpeople’sfaces.Ibecameawhirlwindofabsorbingknowledge.That’swhensomethingnewstartedhappening.AndIcameoutfromcollegeadifferentpersonthanwhenIwentin.

Can you identify what it is about design that you love so much?

It’scomplex.Partofitisthis:Youhaveanidea,andyoucanmakethatideareal.Ithinkit’smuchmorecomplexthanthat,butIthinkyoucanmakeyourideashappenwithoutafilter.Youwouldn’tthinkthatwoulddescribegraphicdesignnecessarily.Usuallyifyou’redoinggraphicdesign,it’s“appliedart,”sothere’snormallyaclientinvolvedorsomeexternalconcernthatyou’readdressing.

IthinkwhatIlovemostisthatIcanusegraphicdesignasavehicleforexpressingmyself.Thisrepresentsformeadichotomyinherentingraphicdesign,thoughitdoesn’treallyjibewithwhatgraphicdesignactuallyis.It’saveryselfishwayofapproachingit.Graphicdesignis,atitscore,moreofanaltruisticactivity.You’rehelpingsomeoneelseexpressamessageinanappropriateway,orinawaythat’smemorable.ButIstronglybelievethatdesignisadichotomy.


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Design is supposed to be about something else, and not about you; but I think the only way it’s actually any good—and to get people to care about it—is if it’s also about you at the same time.

Really? You believe that it needs to be about you and the client at the same time?

Ithinkitdoes.Designershavetofeelit’stheirs.Theyhavetohaveasenseofauthorshipandowner-ship.AndIthinkdesignerswhoaren’tselfishdoreallyawfulwork.

Really? Why is that?Ithinkthatthereneedstobeamotivationatthecoreofthework.Thereneedstobeamotivationforthedesignertogobeyondthepointwheremostpeoplewouldstop.Ithinkwedothisbecausewearegoingtosomehowbenefitfromit.Therearesomedesignerswhodoitbecausethey’rebenefitingfrommoney.Orthey’rebenefitingbyfindingaforumwheretheycanexpressthemselves.ButIactuallythinkthatthedichotomyiswhatmakesitinterest-ing.Itmakesitharder.

Ifyou’redoingsomethingforaclient,butithastobesomethingthatyoubringyourselfinto,andit’salsoaboutsomethingthatyouneedtodo—thosetwomotivationsdonotmeet.They’retotalopposites.Likeoilandvinegar;you’vegottomixitup,andmaybethat’sthereasonwhymostdesignershaveaverydifficulttimekeepingclientsforalongperiodoftime.

Why is that?Ifit’smineandyours,thenwaitaminute:It’smine.Maybethere’ssomethingtothat.Ithinkthat’swhatmakesitdifficult,andinmanyways,itisimpossibletosatisfybothsides.Thereisalwaysatensionthere.ButIthinkthetensioniswhatmakesitinteresting.

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Would you say that this “selfishness” is apparent in the work? Or is it something perhaps only you could identify?

Ihopeit’ssomethingonlyIcanidentify.Becauseit’sfilteredthroughthiswayofthinkingthat’saltruisticonthefaceofit.

But there are many times when I get my greatest joy from being totally invisible in terms of the viewer. They don’t know someone designed what they are looking at! Nevertheless, it’s still something that I needed to express a certain way.

If you don’t feel that you’re emotionally involved with the work you’re doing, do you feel it’s possible to do something that is creatively successful?

Yes.ButIthink“successful”and“someonewho’sreallycaringaboutitandchangingsomeone’smindaboutit”aretwodifferentthings.

How do you know when something you’ve designed is successful?

It’salittlething,alittlesparkthatmakessomethingmemorableorbeautifulorunforgettable.It’sveryhardtodescribeandpeoplehaveverydifferentwaysofdescribingit.[Alexander]GelmanoncecameintomyclassattheSchoolofVisualArts,andhewastryingtodescribethisverythinginmytwo-dimensionaldesigntheoryclass.Hesaidthatthethingwe’reshootingforistocreateadynamicdesign.Healwayscomestotheclasswithahotcupofcoffee—becauseheknowshe’sgoingtodothis—andsays,“Whatyouwantyourworktodois,youwantyourworktodothis—...”

Andhespendsfiveminutestryingtogetthehotcupofcoffeeontheedgeofthedesksoit’sjustrightatthatverypointwhereitmightgo.Noonecantaketheireyesoffofit.Andthat’swhatItrytodowithmywork.


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How do you know when you’ve achieved that?Idon’tknow.Idon’tknowifIcananswerthat.Thatgetstoalargerquestionaboutwhatyourpro-cessisandhowyouarriveatthings.ButI’mafirmbelieverinlogicandcreativethinkingandbeingabletothinkyourwaythroughtheprocessandarriveatasolutionthatmakessenseandisgoingtobeeffective.It’sapplieddesign.Ithinkthat’scrucial;Idon’tthinkyoucanbeagraphicdesignerwithoutit.ButIalsodon’tbelievethatyoucanbeagraphicdesignerwithouttheintuitiveside,thesidethatjustgoes,“Aha!”Youcan’tdescribeit.Ifyoutry,you’reprobablygoingtofail.AndIthinkyouhavetooperatewithbothofthosethingswork-ing—ifnotsimultaneously,atleastonelettingtheotherplayforawhile.

How confident are you in your own judgment?Ifeelastimehasprogressed,I’vegottenmuchmoreconfidentaboutmakingadecisionandjustlivingwithit.Anarchitectwouldprobablylaughatthis;butasagraphicdesigner,you’reresponsibleforlargequantitiesbeingproducedfromthisthingthatyoumade,andthere’sacertainpressurethere.It’slike,“Ohshit!Thereitgoesoutintotheworld.”Youcan’tfixitafterit’sprinted.AndIrememberfeelingareallystrongsenseofpressurewiththatwhenIwasyounger.Ithinkit’snaturalthatyouwould.

Severalyearsago,IsawalecturebythephotographerJaymeOdgers.Andhewasdescribingthezonethathelikestogetintowhenhe’smak-ingsomething.That’sthetimewhereinyoudon’tevennoticethattime’spassing.Maybeyou’vegotaheadacheoryourknucklesarebleeding.Butyou’resofocusedonwhatyou’redoingthatnothingelsematters.Odgerssaidthatfromthetimehegetsupinthemorningtothetimehegoestobedatnight,hestrivestobeinthezoneasmuchashepossiblycan.Itotallyunderstandwhathe’stalkingabout.

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Idon’tknowifitnecessarilymakesforanorderedlife.Ifyoulivelikethis,thereareprobablyalotofthingsthatgobythewayside.

For example?Well,ifyouwereinthatzone,youarenotcallingyourfamily,youareprobablyeatingfastfood.Imissedmynephew’sbirthdayrecently.Iwasonthephonewithhimapologizing.He’seleven,andmissinghisbirthdaywasnotcool.

WheneverItalkaboutthingshumansgetobsessedwith,Irealizeit’sallthesame.Whetherit’ssurfing,orgraphicdesign,orballroomdancing,orScrabble.It’sallthesameshit,youknow?It’sallthesamecoreneed,butIdon’tknowhowtodescribeitanybetter.Perhapsit’sbecausewethinkwe’reallgoingtodieandnobody’sgoingtoknowwewerehere.Butthere’ssomethingindoingsomethingyoulovethat’sverysimilar,nomatterwhatitis.Perhapsit’stheobsession—thewonderfulobsession.

Graphicdesignismyobsession.DeepinmyloveofgraphicdesignisproofthatIcanleaveformychildren.They’llknow.

How would you like to be remembered?IguessI’dliketoberememberedassomebodywhocaredaboutandbelievedinwhathedid.I’dliketothinkthatI’mleavingatrailbehindme.Iknowthattherearecertaindesignerswhoarenolongerwithus,andyoucanalmostcrawlinsidetheirheadsandspendsometimewiththem,eventhoughthey’renotaroundanymore.I’mthinkingaboutpeoplelikeJohnHeartfield.Youlookatsomeoftheworkhewasdoing,andeventhewayhewouldcredithiswork:Ifeelanincredibleconnectionwithhim,eventhoughInevermettheman.

IfeelthesamewayaboutJackKirby.Icanseesomeofthethingsthathewasdoing,andseewherehewasstruggling,orwherehehadtorush,orwherehehadtomakeaconcessionthathedidn’t


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wantto.Icanevenseeasituationwherehehadtoomuchcontrolandfuckedsomethingup.Icantotallyseethat.

Ithinkleavinggoodworkbehindisthemostimportantthingforme.I’minmyearlyfortiesnow,soIdon’tthinkaboutthisverymuch.ButIwouldbeveryupsetifallmyworkjustvanished.It’scertainlynottheonlyreasontodothings,butit’sdefinitelyapartofit.Youmakethisthingandcanputitoverthere.Andthenyoucangoandmakesomemore!Andthesethingsaregoingtobearoundincertainforms—eventhestuffthatyou’reembarrassedby—longafteryou’regone.Ineverwanttotaketheeasyway.

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Chip kidd

My fascination with books began as soon as I learned to read, and the Golden Books imprint was my favorite. By third grade, I became acquainted with the Scholastic Book Club, and I used my allowance to order as many titles as I could afford. When the boxes arrived, I’d sit for a minute or two and imagine what was inside, what the books would be like, and, of course, how they would look. Always how they would look.

There is no one who has had more impact on the design of contemporary books than Chip Kidd. His book jackets for Alfred A. Knopf have helped spark a revolution in the art of American book pack-aging. He has created over 1,500 covers, including works for Bret Easton Ellis, David Sedaris, Michael Crichton, Cormac McCarthy, and many others.

Equally capable as a designer, writer, and edi-tor, Kidd has authored books—such as the critically acclaimed BatmanCollected—in which he shares his enthusiasms for graphic design and popular culture. Kidd has also been generous in revealing his successes, failures, and learning process to an audience of admir-ers, as he demonstrates in the remarkable monograph ChipKidd:BookOne:Work:1986–2006 and in his semi-autobiographical novel TheCheeseMonkeys, the story of a design student’s coming-of-age. He was similarly forthcoming in our conversation.



What was your first creative memory?Makingpoopies.AndsomecriticshavepointedoutthatI’veneverreallyadvancedbeyondthat.

As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?IhavegoneonpublicrecordassayingthatIwantedmorethananythingtobeChrisPartridgeinThe Partridge FamilyonTV.Foryourreadersunder40,Ishouldexplainthathewasaneight-year-oldprofessionalrockdrummer.Nofurtherexplanationnecessary.


Irememberinsixthgradeorso,wehadanassign-mentinartclasstomakearecordalbumcoverforoneofourfavoritesongs.Ipicked“Fly,Robin,Fly”bytheSilverConvention,anddrewa45rpmrecordwithwingssproutingoutofitssides,soaringthroughawatercolorskyfleckedwithcotton-ballclouds.Itwasso,sobeautiful.Andmeaningful.

Did you ever have serious aspirations to pursue any other type of career?

Iplayedthedrumsfromthirdgradethroughcollege(henceChrisPartridge)andultimatelyhadtodecidebetweenpursuingacareerinmusicandacareeringraphicdesign.

Why didn’t you pursue drumming?Ifthere’sanythinghardertobecomesuccessfulatthanmusic,itiscertainlynotgraphicdesign.

What did you study in college? Ididthe“legit”thingandmajoredingraphicdesignasanundergradatPennState.Thatworkedwellforme,andIsawnosenseingraduateschoolatall.IshouldalsoaddthatIhavebeenevergratefulthatIwenttoauniversitythatrequiredafullBA’sworthofclasses,insteadofanartschool.Agraphic


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designerhastofunctionintheworld.WeneedtoknowmorethanjusttypefacesandPantonecolors—indeed,that’stheleastofit.Ilearnedjustasmuchaboutdesignbystudyingpsychology,philosophy,Englishlit,geology,arthistoryand,yes,ballroomdancing.

How would you define the term “graphic design”?Entirebookshavebeenwrittenaboutthat,soIwillkeepmyanswerbrief,boring,andtechni-cal.Ifdesignis,simply,purposefulplanning,thengraphicdesignissuchinvolvingtheuseofavisualmedium—pictures,words,oracombinationofthetwo.Yawn.

Do you typically work alone or with other people?Both,actually.Bythat,ImeanIusuallydesigneverythingbymyself,butI’malsoonstaffatKnopf,whichmeansthereareten-plusdesignersjuststepsdownthehall.Andtheyareten-plusgreatdesign-ers.Webouncestuffoffofeachotherallthetime,andit’sextremelyhelpfulandencouraging.It’sthebestofbothworlds,actually.Iwouldn’tbeabletostayathomeorinastudioaloneandworkinacompletevacuum.Iknowthatworksgreatforsomepeople,butIneedtobearoundotherswhoarealsomakingthings.It’sveryinspiring.

Do you work primarily by hand or with a computer?Almostcompletelybycomputer,especiallyifI’mwriting.Butevenbackinschool,wellbeforetheMaccamealong,Iwasnotbigonsketching—Ijustdon’thavethe“sketch”impulse.Ialwaystriedtoshowworkinascompletedaformaspossible,evenattheroughstage.Andofcoursethecom-putermakesthatazilliontimeseasier.Thatsaid,Idothinkthatanyworthygraphicdesignprogramshouldfirstteachkidstosolveproblemsusingtheirheadsandtheirhandsandleavethecomputeroutofit.

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Theprocessstartswithgettingtheassignment,whichisusuallytoreadamanuscriptofabookIhavetodothecoverfor.Thenitcangoanynumberofways.IfIdon’thaveaclearsenseofwhatIshoulddo,I’minstantlyfilledwithdread,whichhangsovermelikeathin,stinkyfoguntilIeitherfigureoutawaytosolvetheproblemorthrowinthetowel.Iwillsay,though,thatthose“eureka”moments—whenitallcomestogetherinyourheadandyourealizetheperfectthingtodoandyoujustknowitisright,whethertheclientwilllikeitornot—thosearetheclosestmomentstosexingraphicdesign.

Are you ever given research by your clients you must consider for a project?

Sometimestheauthorsdotheresearchforyou,andeverynowandthen,theypleasantlysurpriseyou.BothJohnUpdikeandOrhanPamukpresentedmewiththearttousefortheirmostrecentcovers—TerroristandIstanbul,respectively—andinbothcases,theywereterrific.Suremademyjobeasier.

How do you feel when a project is completed?Ifitcomesoutwell,relieved.Ifnot,I’matleastgladit’soutofmylife.Regardless,I’musuallyontothenextthinglongbeforethelastthingisproduced.

When do you know a project is finished?WhenIseeitremainderedatBarnes&Noble.

How do you know when something you’ve created is good?Whenaftertenyears,Icanlookatitandnotwince,that’sagoodsign.Fifteenyears,evenbetter.Twentyandup—yay!

How confident are you in your own judgment?Itisalltooeasytogetsoclosetosomethingyou’reworkingonthatyouloseallperspectiveonitand


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youcannottell.Insuchcases,ifIhavetheluxuryoftime,I’llputwhateveritisawayandcomebacktoitlater.Otherwise,I’dsaymyintuitionhasdonemeinprettygoodstead.

How important to your work is writing?Inmycase,extremelyimportant,becauseI’malsoanovelist.Thatsoundsreallypretentious,sorry.MygreatfailingisthatI’vegottensousedtowritinginQuark,inatexttypeface,thatIcan’treallywritemuchofanythingunlessIusemylaptop.Iwouldnotrecommendthismethodtoothers.

I’m often asked for advice on how to become a better graphic designer, and this is my response: “Two things—learn how to do crossword puzzles, and learn how to write.”

Theformerteachesyoutothinkaboutlanguageinawholenewway,andthelatterforcesyoutouseit.Theseareinvaluableskillsforanycreativeperson.

Do you feel you are an intuitive designer or are you more intellectual in your approach?

Idon’tseeadifferenceinthetwo.Unlessby“intel-lectual”youmeanadesignsolutionthatrequiresreamsofexplanationinordertounderstandit,inwhichcaseI’dsayit’satotalfailure.

Do you sketch a lot?No.Idoodlealot.Andinmycasethat’snotthesamething.Regardingjobs,occasionallyIfindmyselfhav-ingtoscrawltheoddideaontoasoggybarnapkin,justtogetthemostrudimentarypointacross.ButIavoidthatsortofthingasmuchaspossible.

Are you wary of people who can’t draw?Certainlynot.Gooddraughtsmanshipisavery,verydifficultthingtoachieveandusuallyrequiresyearsofdedicationandhardwork.WhatIamwaryof,

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regardingthissubject,isdrawingthatisdeemedtobeworthyofadmirationbutjustleavesmescratch-ingmyhead.

Do you keep a journal?Alas,no.Ijustdon’thavethesketchbook/journal/diarygene,andIregretitterribly.IthinkIhaveasubconscious—ormaybenotsosubconscious—beliefthatthetimeI’dspendworkingonajour-nalcouldbebetterservedbyactuallydoingwork.However,mostcreativepeopleIknow(especiallycartoonists)dokeepajournal;theyfinditthera-peutic,andIhavethegreatestadmirationforthem.IhadstudentsattheSchoolofVisualArtswhosepersonalsketchbookswerefarmoreinterestingthananythingtheydidintheclass.

Do you keep a book or files for inspiration? Well,Idokeepascrapbookofsorts,inwhichIkeepclippingsofpullquotesfromnewspapersandmagazines.Theyformastrangesortofreportorialhaiku.I’vebeendoingthisforoversevenyearsandamtoyingwiththeideaofpublishingthecollection.We’llsee.

Do you feel that your education has fundamentally influenced your design ability?

WithoutmyeducationatPennState—fromLannySommese,BillKinser,andothers—Iwouldn’thavegottenanywhere.Conversely,thetwobestexamplesofself-taughtdesignersIknowareDavidCarsonandChrisWare.Theyareproofthatit’spos-sible,butextremelyrare,andIheartilyrecommendaformaldesigneducation,especiallyincludingathoroughstudyofthehistoryofgraphicdesign.

Who is your favorite graphic designer?Non-living,I’dhavetosayit’safour-waytiebetweenElLissitzky,AlexanderRodchenko,Piet


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Zwart,andAlvinLustig.But,God,therearesomanyothers.Living,I’dsayPeterSaville,ifyoucancallthatliving(sorry,Peter).

Who has influenced you most in your career as a graphic designer?

It’scornytosayit,butit’sthebooksthemselvesIhavetodesigncoversforthatinfluencemethemost.Howcouldtheynot?

Typically, how many books do you read a year?I’dsay30to40,whichisalotformebecauseI’maveryslowreader.

Do you read newspapers?The New York Times,and,yes,The New York Post.Hey,thereisnoorderwithoutchaos.OftentheTimesistoodiscreteaboutaparticularstory,andthePostjustgoesforthejugular,whichcanbeveryrefreshing.Butitspoliticsareabhorrent.

Where do you see yourself in five years? What are you doing?

ThenicethingisthatIcanhonestlysaythatifinfiveyearsI’mstilldoingwhatI’mdoingnow,thatwouldn’tbebadatall.However,Ihaveafewideasaboutbranchingoutinsomenewdirectionscreativelyandwillbepursuingthem.Whethertheresultsgetpastthestageof“personalprojects,”well,we’llsee.

Do you have recurring dreams or nightmares?It’slittlewonderthatpsychiatristsarepaidtolistentootherpeople’sdreams.Imean,isthereanythingmoreboring?Although,lastnightIhadtheRuthGordonnude-hazingdreamagain,andthistimeshewasswingingtheheadlessgoathigherthansheeverhadbefore.DoesthatmeanIhatemymother?Holdme.

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Are you afraid of anything?OhmyGod,howmuchtimedoyouhave?Iliveinalmostconstantterror.Here’satinyportionofthelist:cancer,vaginas,giantcockroaches,KathyLeeGifford’slatestChristmasalbum,burningtodeath,tornados,gristle,children,chokingonasmalltoy,thepope’sunwantedadvances,mattedclogsofhair,rootrot,DeborahSussman’seyelashextensions,Republicans,andSucralose.AndtheideathatPatRobertsonisnotyetdead.

What makes you laugh?ThisblindmanwalksintoanexpensiveantiquechinashoponMadisonAvenuewithhishugeGermanshepherdseeing-eyedog.Nosoonerdoestheshopclerkask,“MayIhelpyou,sir?”thanthemangripsthedog’shandlewithbothhands,braceshimself,andwithagreatheavehaulsthemassivebeastoffthegroundinasingleyank,andspinshimaroundandaround.Theclerkcowersinfear.Hav-ingworkeduptremendousmomentum,themanfinallyletsthedoggoandsendstheterrifiedanimalflyingacrosstheroom,landingwithathunderouscrashagainstanentirewallofpricelessMingvases,whichexplodeintoamillionpieces.Thenthemansays,“Nothanks,I’mjustlooking.”

How content are you with your life?It’snotthatsimple.

I’d say that there are aspects of my life I’m very content with, and yet I’ll always be consumed with an intense yearning, and I think that’s necessary—total contentment can be a dangerous thing for a creative person.

Do you regret anything?IregretnotmakingtheefforttomeetCharlesSchulzinhislifetime.Itriedtomakeupforitby


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puttingtogetherabookthatpaysproperhomagetohiswork.IthinkIwasonlypartiallysuccessful.

What do you think of the state of contemporary graphic design?

Ithinkofitaslittleaspossible.

What do you think of Ken Garland’s 1964 First Things First manifesto?

Howeverwell-intended,Ithinkitwaspretentiousnonsense.ButIsupposeI’mluckyenoughtobeinapositiontosayso.Astherabbisaid,“Ourtaskistogetonwiththework.”Theleasteffectivewaytodothatistalkingaboutwhat“wethink”aboutit.

What about First Things First 2000?Ditto.I’vealwaysconsideredmyselftobeveryresponsibleaboutwhatIworkonandhowIworkonit.That’sjustcommonsense,andIdon’tneedaparcelofpseudo-intellectualclaptrap(I’mreferringtothemanifestoitself,notnecessarilythepeoplewhosignedit)totellmewhattodo.

What’s your response to Milton Glaser’s “12 Steps on the Road to Hell”? What number have you crossed?

Ithinkit’samusingandcertainlytobeconsidered.Buttheonlyonethatappliestomeisnumberfour:“Haveyoueverdesignedthejacketforabookthatcontainssexualcontentyoufindpersonallyrepel-lent?”Forsomeoneinthepublishingbusiness,thisquestionislaughableinitsoversimplification.Thereareentirelibrariesfullofbookswithrepel-lentsexualcontentthathavewonthePulitzerPrize,theNationalBookAward,theNobel,etc.Lolitaisonelongodetopedophilia—whichIfindpersonallyrepellent,duh—andoneofthebestbooksI’veeverread.I’vedesignedacoverforaBrazilianeditionofitandwoulddosoagaininaheartbeat.Ithinkabetterquestionwouldregardagivenbook’sintent.

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Forexample,Iwouldflat-outrefusetodesignabookcoverforAnnCoulterorBillO’Reilly.

Do you think graphic designers have any obligation to create design to inspire social change?

Yes,ifthatisyourjob.Butit’snotimplicitintheprofessionasawhole,andsometimesthesocialchangethatis“inspired”isnotsuchagreatthing.

FascisminItalydidverywellbysomeextremelybeautifulartdecographicsandarchitec-ture.Ithinkwhatyoumeantosayis“inspireposi-tivesocialchange.”ItrytodothatwheneverIcan,sayforaNew York TimesOp-Edpieceorapoliticalposter.Butinmyregularlineofwork,it’sthebooksthemselvesthathavethefargreaterpotentialtoaffectandbenefittheculture,notthejackets.Andthat’sjustfine.

What do you love most about being a graphic designer?Makingthings,andthenhavingthethingsyoumake.Inthatsense,I’matotalmaterialistandnotatallashamedofit.Ihavebeenextremelyprivi-legedforthelast20yearstoputtogethermyownpersonallibraryofsorts,assemblinggreatbooksthatI’vebeenluckyenoughtodesignthecoversfor.

Is there anything you dislike about being a graphic designer?

TherearesomanyotherthingsIwanttodo,andtimeisrunningout.ButItrulylovewhatIdoandamthankfulI’mabletokeepdoingit.IshouldalsoaddthatIthinkit’ssadthatmostgraphicdesign-ersstilldon’tgetcreditfortheirwork.I’vealwaysmaintainedthatwhateversuccessandrenownI’veachievedasagraphicdesignerisbecauseI’minanindustry—bookpublishing—thatroutinelygivescredittoitsdesigners.Kids,getyournameonwhatyoudo.Peaceout.


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Jessica Helfand

“I am, in principle, morally opposed to hero worship, but I’d like to announce that in my next life, I’d like to be Nigella Lawson.” So begins “Time Waits for No Fan,” a memorable piece written by Jessica Helfand for the blog Design Observer, the popular forum she cofounded.

Jessica’s pieces on Design Observer are among my favorites, not only because they are smart, funny, and erudite, but because her contributions consis-tently manage to bridge the academic with the arcane and almost always contain a uniquely personal insight. She deftly writes about cooking and creativ-ity, gardening and Greer Allen, the Design Police and the Dixie Chicks. And somehow, when Jessica Helfand writes, I sincerely believe that she is writing directly to and for me. Remarkably, I am only one of her many, many admirers who feel this way.

But successful blogging is only one more recent manifestation of Jessica’s abundant talent. A one-time student of Paul Rand, she is a partner in the design firm Winterhouse, an accomplished author, and a critic at the Yale School of Art.

In “Time Waits for No Fan,” Jessica contem-plates the cult of celebrity fascination. “Fanship, a splinter group of hero worship, is a natural conse-quence of contemporary life,” she writes. Well, truth be told: Jessica Helfand may want to come back as Nigella Lawson in her next life, but in my next life, I’d like to come back as Jessica Helfand.



What was your first creative memory?Ihavetwo.I’mnotsureifthiscounts,butIcanrememberwatchingTVandhidingundermyparents’bedeverytimethestationidentificationforCBSappeared,showingthefamous“eye”icondesignedbyWilliamGoldenin1951.IfearthatthefactthatIrespondedinterrortoalogosaysalotaboutmycareerchoice.

Afewyearslater—Iwasprobablyabout10or11atthetime—Iwasonmywaytoabirthdayparty.Aswegatheredbythedoorandgotreadytoleave,mymotherhandedmethegift,whichshe’dwrappedratherminimallyinplain,browncraftpaper.Ipromptlytookoffmycoatandwenttomyroomtoreturnmomentslaterwithacoffeecanfullofmarkers.Afterabouttenminutesofchan-nelingmyinnerBodoni—lotsofletterform,asIrecall—Iwasreadytogototheparty.Myparentssaythat’swhentheyknewIwasgoingtobeagraphicdesigner,althoughIdon’tthinkImyselfknewuntilabouttenyearslater.

When specifically did you have that realization?Inhighschool,Itookasix-weekintensivesummerworkshopatTheInstituteforArchitectureandUrbanStudiesinNewYork.Thiswasanincredibleplace—partstudio,partthinktank—thatwasaclear-inghouseforallsortsofinterestingpeoplepassingthroughNewYorkinthe1970s.Irememberfeelingthatlifeinanofficewithugly,overheadfluorescentlampswasunimaginable,butifIcouldbeinaplacewherepeopledrewalldayondraftingtableslitbyluxolamps,thenIwouldalwaysbehappy.

Fearofalogoandloveofalamp.There’sapathologywaitingtobediagnosedhere,I’msure.


Atonepoint,Iwasprettyseriousaboutacting.AsanundergraduateatYale,everyminuteIwasn’tin


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thestudio,Iwasinrehearsalforsomething.Dur-ingthefouryears,Iwasin24shows,mostofthemmusicals.ThiswasYale,remember:lotsofColePorter.I’dplayedthecellofor15yearspriortocol-lege,andI’dalwaysbeeninterestedintheater,butIhavetosaythatthecatalystcamewhenIhadthisboyfriend—formaybe15minutes—aboutwhomIremember(notsurprisingly)very littleexceptthatheusedtosingtome.

AndonedayIwasimitatinghim,andsome-oneoverheardmeandpointedoutthatIhadper-fectpitchandathree-and-a-halfoctaverange.Hello!Fastforwardtoanaudition,andthenextthingIknowI’mdoingtheJudyHollidayroleinBells Are Ringing.

Why didn’t you pursue acting?AfterIgraduated,Iwenttoafewauditions,andIgrewprettydisillusionedwiththeprospects.ButIwasn’treadytogoapprenticeinadesignstudiorightaway,either.SoIgotajobreadingscriptsforaproducer.MostofthescriptsweresodreadfulthatoneweekendIwenthomeandwroteonemyself.Isubmittedit,gotanagent,wrotefordaytimetelevision—theonlytelevisionjobbesidesnewsinthosedays—andstruggledasascriptwriterforaboutthreeyearsbeforerealizingthat,unlikemycolleagues,IhadnoaspirationstomovetoLosAngeles,driveaPorsche,andwritesitcoms.AndIreallymissedmakingthings.OnedayIlookedovermyscriptsandwasamazedtoseehowvisualtheywere:Itwasliketherewasagraphicdesignerstillinme,strugglingtobreakfree.IwentbacktoYaleayearlaterformyMFA,andtherest,astheysay,ishistory.

How would you define the term “graphic design”?Somehow,Ithinkgraphicdesignsucceedsbestwhenitresistsdefinition.

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Do you work primarily by hand or with a computer?OurworkatWinterhousealwaysbenefitsfromdrawing,frompinningupourworkanddrawingrightonthewalloverit,fromsketchingnotonlybeforehandbutduringtheprocess.Computersaregreat,really,buttheydon’tdothethinkingforyou.

Are you wary of people who can’t draw?IwishIwasn’t,butIhavetoconfessthatIthinkIam.Bill[Drenttel,Helfand’shusbandandpartneratWinterhouse]can’tdraw,andweteasehimwhenhetriesto:Buthe’ssogiftedinotherwaysthatit’seasytoforgivehim.


Wetalkanddraw,drawandtalk.Andargueanddisagree.Andtalksomemore.

IalsogetalotofideaswhileI’mdriving.Whichisgood,becausewehavetwochildrenandI’malwaysdrivingthemsomewhere.Ihavesketch-bookseverywhere—bymybed,inthecar—buthalfthetime,thevisualideasIhaveendupinthemarginofthenewspaperoronthebackofanenvelope.Inmynextlife,I’llbemoredisciplinedaboutwhereIdraw—butIdotrytodrawasmuchaspossible,andgetmystudentstodraw.It’sawaytopushyourvisualthinking.

Wordsdon’treplacemakingthings—theycan’t.AndIthinkthathavinggrownupinParis,andhavingtospeakFrenchinschooleveryday,andplayingthecello—itsownkindoflanguage—Iappreciated,earlyon,theabilitytocommunicatesomethingquickly,instantaneously.That’swhatdrawingcandoandwhyIhavecometobelieveinitsostrongly.Itcanmoveanideaalongsoefficiently.There’sapuritytodrawingthatIfindintoxicating.

Do you have an opinion on pre-design research?I’mresistanttomarketresearchandusertesting,


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eventhoughIrecognizeandappreciatetheirbenefitsfromafar.Buthistoricalresearchisanintrinsicpartofalotofourwork,andIloveit.

When do you know a project is finished?Idon’t.ThisiswhyIhaveapartner,andBillislikealaserbeamintermsoffocusingondetails,whereasI’mimpatientandIloseinterest.I’mgoodatstartingthings—Billis,too—butI’mnotalwayssogoodatfinishingthem.Mostly,though,wetendtohavelong-termclientsandprojects,sothegoalislessaboutfinishingthanitisaboutsustainingtheenergy,comingupwithnewwaystokeeptheworkfresh.

How do you assess your own work?Withgreatdifficulty.Likemostdesigners,Iamprettycompetitive,butI’malsonotsogoodatbeingcriticized.Beingamotherandateacher—paralleljobsI’vecometoloveandappreciateoverthelastdecade—hasmadememorecriticalbutalsomoreconsistent.AsIgetolder,though,I’mlessgoodatbeingcriticizedbyothers,whichiswhatmakesDesignObserver[theblogaboutdesignandvisualculturefoundedbyHelfand,Drenttel,MichaelBierut,andRickPoynor]sometimessohard:Ifindtheopennessofwritingandreceivingresponses—someofwhichcanbequiteharsh—somethingI’mstillgettingusedto.

Ifwewritetoopolitically,peoplecomplain.Toomuchaboutgraphic(asopposedtoother)design,andreaderscomplain.I’mtooobtuseoneday,toovapidthenext.Tooabstractandintellec-tual.Toocultivated.Notcultivatedenough.Iloveblogging,butyoucan’twin.Andasawayofassess-ingyourownwork,blogsgiveyouawideopen,no-holds-barredaccesstoyouraudience—forbetterorworse.

Putanotherway:IwritetofigureoutwhatIcan’tmakeinthestudio;Imakeworkinthestudio




totrytofigureouthowtoengagebiggerideasaboutdesign—theonesIcan’tquitereachinmywritingorgettosodirectly.Andwhenallelsefails,Ihaveapaintingstudioinmybasementthatismytruesanctuary.

How do you know when something you’ve created is good?

It is a balance, and maybe too restrictively so, but I’m happiest when I’ve made something new, something I never made before, yet that gestures to something for which I’m already known.

So,forexample,IwasreallyproudofBelow the Fold—anoccasionaljournalwewrite,design,andpublishfromtheWinterhouseInstitute.We’dneverdonethisbefore,somethingthisambitiousthatcombineswriting,editing,usingourlibrary,andminingourcollections;wecollaborateandmakeworkinthisway.

ButeventhoughBelow the Foldisaneweffort,it’sbuiltuponsomethingveryfamiliarinourwork:Notfamiliarinarepetitive,been-there-done-thatsortofway,butfamiliarinthesensethatpeopleknowthatwe’rebigreaders,thatwewrite,thatwelivewith8,000books.Sowithoutoverstatingit,Ilikethatthere’sasortofintentionality,anintellec-tualappetiteunderlyingthework.Andifthat’sthebackstory,Below the Foldcouldgoonreinventingitselfindefinitely.

Do you keep a journal?No.Butalotofsketchbooks:oneforclients,oneforpaintings,oneforcollageandtravel.Oneformydaughter,acollaborativesketchbookthatweshare,whichincludeselementsofalltheabove.

Do you feel your education has fundamentally influenced your design ability or would you say that you’re more self-taught?


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Iamabigbelieverineducation.Actually,Iamanevenbiggerbelieverinaliberalartseducation,whichistosaythatIbelieveanundergraduateschoolshouldprovidethebroadesteducation.Collegeisforreadingliteratureandstudyinglanguage,etc.Artschoolontopofthatisthebestpossiblerecipeforlivingafulllifeasadesigner,becauseitincorporatesbothdisciplinarybreadthintheundergradcurriculumandakindofcriticaldepthingraduateworkthateachbenefitfromtheother.

Who is your favorite graphic designer?I’mabigfanofLadislavSutnar.Hehadanextra-ordinarygiftforbalanceandgrace,aninherentappreciationforakindofelegantsimplicity,andanunmistakableloveoftheatrical,dimensionalscale.Plus,hemademechanicalsthatwereasexquisiteasacollagebyJohnHeartfieldorJosephBeuys.Andhewasversatile—hedesignedeverything,backwhentherereallywassomethinggraphicaboutgraphicdesign.


First,BradburyThompson,whowasmyteacher—andIwashisteachingassistant—atYale,andwhosoimpressedmebyhishumanity,hisintelligence,andhisgenerosity.Thereisnoonewhohasimpressedmemoreasateacher,norwhoseskillsasaneduca-torhaveinfluencedmemore.Heprovedtomeyoucanbeatoughcriticandstillbeasweetheart.

CleveGraywasalesser-knownyetprolificpainterwhodiedin2004andwasmymentorforthelastfewyearsofhislife.WhenIstudiedpaint-ingingradschool,IwastoldIcouldn’tpaint.CleveshowedmenotonlythatIcouldpaint,butthatIhadtopaint.Hisunwaveringdevotiontomakingworkeverydayofhislife,andhisapproach—ablendof




focusandforgiveness—havebeenahugeinspirationforme.

IwouldalsohavetosayIhavebeen,andcontinuetobe,deeplyinfluencedbymypartner,WilliamDrenttel—whoalsohappenstobemyhus-band.WemetwhenIwasjustoutofgradschool,andheencouragedme,andcontinuestoencourageme,asbothawriterandamaker.Billisaninsa-tiablereader,anenthusiasticforceinthestudio,andskilledinsomanywaysIamnot.He’sgotanuncannyinstinctaboutclients.He’sgiftedthree-dimensionally,andhe’sprescient—he’sgotasixthsenseaboutwherethingsareheaded,andwhy.He’sasmart,smartartdirector.

Mostly,though,Ihavebeeninfluencedbyhisgenerosity:tohisemployees,pastandpresent,tooursuppliers,pastandpresent,toourcolleaguesandourclients,ourfamily,andme.Helovesgraphicdesign,andifandwhenIwaver,heremindsmewhyIdo,too—oftenbysurprisingme.It’sthatsimulta-neouspresenceofsustainedsupportcoupledwithaperpetualelementofsurprisethatmakemewanttodobetterwork.

Where do you see yourself in five years? What are you doing?

Theshortanswer:Survivingmychildrens’adolescence!

Thelongeranswer:Healthyandhappy.

Thedetailedanswer:Painting.Makingletterpressbooksinour

barn.Teaching.Learningtobeabetterlistener,tobemoreresilient,tobeproductiveinwaysIcan’tevenenvisiontoday.

Do you have recurring dreams or nightmares?Ihavetwo:Oneisthatthelaundryhasn’tbeendonein12yearsandispileduptotheceiling,onlyIcan’tfigureouthowtoturnthemachineon.


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TheotheristhatI’mbackingraduateschoolatYale,beingjudgedbymycolleaguesonthefaculty—withwhomI’vetaughtforadecade—andthey’vedecidedthattheworldhaschangedsomuchsinceIreceivedmyMFAin1989that I have to do my thesis over again.


Atthemoment,I’mextremelydisillusioned.

I think style has a way of superceding content, that the rise and proliferation of individual technologies have had a negative effect on human civility; and I think that designers are getting complacent. But that’s just today.

Idothinkthatthebiggerissuehere,withallduerespect,isthedegreetowhichgraphicdesign,byitsverynature,conspirestolendauthoritytothingsthatareundeserving.ImplicitinthisassumptionisasetofvaluejudgmentsthathavefrequentlybeenraisedintheFirstThingsFirstmanifesto:Somebody’s got to design dog food, so why not me?Thesearethingswethinkaboutandtalkaboutconstantlyinourstudio.Andourchil-drenareawareofittoo,andshouldbe:It’snotadoublestandardforus—andourhouseandstudioareattached,makingitevenmoreofanissue.Werecentlydesignedamilklabelforafarmerwhocouldn’taffordtopayus:Wegetfreemilkandeggsforlife,instead.Somethingaboutthistransactionmadememoreawareofpesticidesandaddedhor-mones.Amongotherthings.

Butthereareotherkindsofsocialchange:IparticipatedintheNewYorkArtDirectorsClubdebateon“Designism,”andWinterhousecollabo-ratedwithAIGAandtheNYUSchoolofJournalismtolaunchthe“PollingPlacePhotoProject,”whichwasallaboutthekindof“citizendesigner”—or,as




NYU’sJayRosenwouldsay,the“citizenjournal-ist”—outreach:peopleusingtheircellphonestovisuallydocumentaprocess,leveragingtheirrighttovoteintoaprojecttodocumenttheirpollingplaces.

It’snotmuch,butit’sastart.Moreandmoreastimegoeson,allofourprojectsareinformed,insomeway,byenactingsomelarger,morecom-prehensivekindofsocialchange.Interestingly,itseldomcomesfromakindofmanifesto-likeappealorasubversiveeffort.Rather,ittakescollaboration,coordination,concentration.I’mbeginningtothinkdesigncanbeacatalystforchange.Itcanhappen.Andshould.


Softwareupgradesmakemeanxious,andremindmehowlittlecontrolIhaveoveranything.IkeepwaitingforAdobetofollowCoca-Cola’sleadandbringbackPhotoshop1.0....Theycouldcallit“PhotoshopClassic,”andpeopleover40likemewouldbeinheaven.


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seymour Chwast

Seymour Chwast is an elder statesman of the design community and is among the most influential design-ers and illustrators of our time. Together with Milton Glaser and Edward Sorel, he cofounded the legendary Push Pin Studios in 1954, and became its director when the studio changed its name to The Pushpin Group in the early ’80s.

Seymour’s design and illustrations have been used in advertising, animated films, corporate and environmental graphics, books, packaging, and record covers. His posters are in the permanent collection of New York’s Museum of Modern Art, the Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum, and the Library of Congress. He was inducted into the Art Directors Club Hall of Fame in 1984, and the American Insti-tute of Graphic Arts gave him its prestigious Medal a year later.

When I e-mailed Seymour the questions I planned to ask him for this book, he replied that he wouldn’t tell me about his likes and dislikes because “lists . . . smack of idolatry. I will not tell you what I wear in bed.” Instead, Seymour described things that are far more interesting, and a lot less tangible: listening to his conscience, keeping up with the latest trends, and finding unconventional design solutions. He also describes “painting on weekends in the coun-try with a Marx Brothers movie on the tube” and his disdain for rejection.



What was your first creative memory?Drawingalady’sheadwithaneyebrowpencilwhilewaitingformymotherinabeautyparlor.

When you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up?

AcartoonistworkingforWaltDisney,partiallybecauseIhadseenSnow WhiteandPinocchio.


InhighschoolinBrooklyn—wheremyartteacherwhoemigratedfromGermanyinthe’30staughtusaboutthegreatposterdesignersandforcedustoentereverypostercompetition.Atthattime,IwasintroducedtoGebrausgraphik,thefirstgraphicdesignmagazine.

What did you study in college? AttheCooperUnionSchoolofArt,Istudiedwhatwascalled“AdvertisingArt.”IhaveanhonoraryPhDinFineArtfromtheParsonsSchoolofDesign.

How would you define the term “graphic design”?Everythingthat’sprinted,includingillustration,photography,anddrawnartforanimation.

Do you typically work alone or with other people?Iworkwithartdirectors,entrepreneurs,editors.Idesignbymyselforwithmydesigner.

Do you work primarily by hand or with a computer?Idrawonpaperwithmydesignerexecutingthedrawings,andotherwork,onacomputer.

Do you find that you have a “process” for initiating your design work?

Atfirst,IsearchformetaphoricalsymbolsuntilIfindthosemostappropriatefortheproject.


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InspirationcomesfromillustratedbooksandGoogle.Withanillustrationproject,Isearchfortherightstyleormethodofexecution,whichinvolveslookingattheworkofothers.


I never know if anything I’ve created is good, but I know I’m done when I give up looking for other ideas.

How important to your work is writing?Myillustrationisareactiontostoriesconveyedaswords.Sometimesthedesignproblemisde-scribedverbally.


Aftermymindhasdoneitsjob,Mr.Handtakesover.

Do you keep a book or files for inspiration? Afilewithinspirationissillywhenyouhavealibraryandcomputer.

Do you feel that your education has fundamentally influenced your design ability or would you say that you are more self-taught?

Educationinthebroadestsense—meaningexposuretoallaspectsofourhistoryandculture—hasbeenvitaltomydesignability;techniqueandcrafthavetobelearnedaswell.

Who has most influenced you in your career as a graphic designer?

SaulSteinberg,AndréFrançois,PaulaScher,MiltonGlaser,WinsorMcCay,andErikNitsche.

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Would you consider your work to be influenced by contemporary culture?

Myworkisinfluencedbyculture—especiallydesignandartof100yearsago—uptobutnotincludingthepresentday.

How much, if any, research do you do before starting a project?

Oneshoulddoasmuchresearchasnecessary.

At a point, I find it useful to let my mind wander and land on something, an unconventional solution.

Tell me about some of the things you like and dislike.AlistoflikesanddislikesisveryJapaneseifyouinclude,“Whatisyourfavoriteflowerandtree?”Listslikethissmackofidolatry.IwillnottellyouwhatIwearinbed.

Where do you see yourself in five years? Atadrawingtable.

Are you afraid of anything?Iamafraidofbeingexposed.

What is your favorite thing to do?Playwithmydogs.ThebestthingispaintingonweekendsinthecountrywithaMarxBrothersmovieonthetube.

Do you regret anything?Iregretnotgoingintorealestate.


It’sgoodandbad,asalways,butIshouldn’tjudgebecausethegenerationaldifferencemakesithardformetorelateto“contemporary”design.


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Do you think graphic designers have any obligation to create design that inspires social change?

Thereisnoobligation—butwemustfollowourconscienceandhumansensibilities.

What do you love most about being a graphic designer?Iloveseeingmyworkinprint.Ialsoenjoyseeingotherpeopleseeingmyworkinprint.


Havingtokeepupwiththelatest“trends.”AndIhaterejection.

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Lucille Tenazas

Lucille Tenazas is often referred to as a thinking designer’s designer. This is apt, because at the heart of her work is a rigorous exploration of both the magi-cal and the logical, and what she herself describes as a lifelong interest in the complexity of language and the overlapping relationship of meaning, form, and content.

Born and educated in the Philippines, English is Lucille’s second tongue. Yet you’d never know this by examining her impressive body of work and the way that she literally paints with language. Her typo-graphic skills are masterful, and her designs examine both the art of communication as well as the mysteri-ous science of verbal and visual messaging.

After spending 20 years working in San Fran-cisco and one year abroad in Rome, Lucille recently relocated to New York. She has returned to the pivotal place where she first started her career and believes that this full circle is particularly appropriate now, since she is more committed than ever to exploring the boundaries between the instinctive and the cere-bral, the rational and the abstract.

During our interview, Lucille was animated and entertaining. She was working on her first mono-graph, so our conversation touched on topics she was investigating for the book. We talked about the for-mative relationship she had with her father, Michael Bierut’s influence, and the significance of growing up in a matriarchal society.



What was your first creative memory?Ithinkmyfirstcreativememoryisfromthefirstgrade.IwasbornandraisedinthePhilippines,inManila.Fromkindergartentocollege,Iwenttoonlyoneschool.ItwasaCatholicgirls’schoolrunbyGermannuns.Whatalistofadjectives!Catho-lics,girls,Germannuns.ButinthePhilippines,itwastheonlywayyoucouldgetagoodeducation.Itwasasingle-sexschool,soitwaseitherallgirlsorallboys,andtheschoolswereallrunbyreligiousorders.Iwenttoaverygoodliberalartswomen’scollegethathappenedtohavegoodartsandsciencedegrees.

Iwasdyingtoleaveandgotoacoeduniver-sity,butatthetime,Manilawasundermartiallaw;[Ferdinand]Marcoswasinpower,andtheoneuniversitythatIhadconsideredgoingtoinordertostudyfineartswasaverypoliticallyactiveschool.Studentswerebeinghauledofftoprison.Theywerealwaysoutinthestreetdemonstrating,andatthatpoint,myfather—hewasstillaliveatthetime—said,“Youknow,you’renotreallygoingtogetaverygoodeducationifyou’reoutthereinthestreets,soyoumightaswellstayintheschoolandgetagoodeducation.”WhichIdid.

Thisisallinthecontextofmyfirstcreativememory,whichisthis:WhenIwasinfirstgrade,Irememberbeinginmathclass,andwewerelearn-ingarithmetic.Addition,subtraction,andsoforth.Irememberwewereaskedtocreatevisuals,a“twoapplesplusthreeapplesequalsfiveapples”kindofthing.Theteachertolduswecoulddowhateverwewantedtomakeourownvisualrepresentation.Irememberusingtrees.

Now,there’stheprototypicaltree,whichisaniconictrunkwithacloudaroundit,whicheveryoneusestorepresenttrees.ButIrememberthatIdreweverysinglekindoftree.Ihadapalmtree,Ihadtreeswithleaves;Ihadtreeswithdifferentkindsofleaves,treeswithroundleaves.Ittookmealong


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timetodothis.Andaswewereworking,myteacherwalkedaroundcheckingpapersandobservedourprogress.Istillrememberherfootstepsonthewoodenfloor.Shestoppedatmydeskforwhatseemedlikealongtime.AllIcouldthinkofwas,“Whyisshestoppingnexttome?DidIdosome-thingwrong?”Butthenshesaidtome,“Youareagoodartist.”ItwasthefirsttimeIhadreceivedthiskindofaffirmation.Itwasn’trequired,anditwasn’taskedfor.Anditwasmyfirstmemoryofcreativityboltingawayfromthenorm.

Was this the moment you decided to do something creative with your life?

Itwasaprogression.Afterthefirstaffirmationofmycreativetalent,Iwasconsideredtheartist.Inelementaryschool,alleyeswouldbeonmewhenateacherwouldask,“Okay,whowilldrawthisontheboard?”Ofcourse,Iwoulddrawit.Orwhenwehadschoolartcontests,theprincipalwouldputalittlestaronthebestoneonthebulletinboard.Andinvariably,itwasalwaysmine.Iwouldlookaround,andtherewasalwaystheacknowledgment,“Oh,it’sLucille’swork.”Itwasnotsomethingtobragabout.IlookedatmyselfknowingIwasuniqueandwonderingwhyIhadthisgift.

Myparentssawthis,andwhenIwasinthesixthgrade,therewasanewspapercompetitionforkidstosubmitadrawing.Thewinningdrawingwouldappearinthenationalpaper.AndIwonit.Iwouldwintheseawards,andmyparentswouldsay,“Oh,submityourdrawingsforthisthinganddothis.”AndIwouldgettheaward,like25pesosforwinning.Thisbecameanongoingthing.TherewasalwayssomeactivityIwasinvolvedinwhereinIwouldwinanaward.

Thenmyfatherpassedaway.Iwas16andinhighschool.Initially,hehadplannedformetobesomethingelse,adoctororanarchitect.ButwhenIstayeduplatedrawing,myfatherwouldstayupand

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sitwithmeandwatch.I’dsitatthediningtablewithmycrayonsandmarkersalllaidout,andhewouldsitattheheadofthetableveryquietlyobservingme.Everyonceinawhile,hewouldleanoverandsay,“Whydidyoumakethisred?”AndIwouldsay,“BecauseIlikeit.”IwassoinvolvedinwhatIwasdoingthatIthinkIwasmostlyunconsciousofhispresence.

Inhindsight,hispresencemeantalottome.Hedidn’tsaymuch.Hewasanengineer,notanartist,butheunderstoodearlyonthattherewasapaththatIhadchartedformyself.SowhenIwenttocollege,itmadeperfectsensethatIwouldpur-sueacareerinthearts.IknewwhenIwasinhighschoolthatIdidn’twanttobeafineartist;Ididn’twanttobeapainter.Iwantedtobeadesigner.

Sincedesignwasn’talegitimatemajorinthePhilippines,Istudiedforabacheloroffinearts.Itwasquiteagoodeducation,thoughnotstrictlyaboutgraphicdesign.Butmytrajectorywasprettyclearfromthebeginning.

Do you think that you have a style to your work?Itdepends.Onthesurface,it’sallabouttypogra-phy.Butasyoulookdeeper,itstartstounravel.Itbecomesmorelayered.Yes.

My work is predominantly typographic, but there is a deliberate marriage of the linguistic element to the visual elements. It is actually more about language than it is about type.

WhenIwasgrowingup,IlearnedEnglishfromaveryacademicpointofview.Adherencetothiswasstrictlyenforced.WhenIarrivedintheStates,Icouldspeakthelanguageandmakemyselfunder-stood,butIwaspracticinginaprofessionwherelanguagewasusedasawaytocommunicatebutalsoasawaytoplay.SoforsomeonewholearnedEnglishinaverystrictacademicmode,thisbecamemytimetoplay.


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To me, your work seems to be the product of an equal combination of intuition and intellect.

Itis.I’vetalkedaboutthis,howmyleftbrainworkswithmyrightbrain.Whenpeopleseemywork,orwhentheyhearmespeakaboutmywork,theyunderstandthetotalrationalityofwhatIdo.It’sveryarchitectural.It’sstructured,it’sarationalpro-gressionfrom“thistothistothis.”ButunderlyingitallisthesensethatItrustmyowncreativeintuitionandmyjudgment.Ithinkthisiswhatmakesmyworkunique.Thereisabalance.

You’ve also said that you feel very confident about having the ability to blend the instinctive with the cerebral.

Yes,Ido.Ithinkthatasoneworksthroughone’slife,theinstinctiveandthecerebralbecomemani-festedindailylife.I’veseendesignerswhoselivesbecomeoverchoreographed.They’reonlywear-ingblackclothes,andtheirhouseisimmaculate.Idon’thavethat.Idon’twantit.Youcanlookatmysurroundingsandseethereisaneclecticqualitytowhat’saroundme.It’scarefullychosen,butit’snotmanufactured.

What do you consider to be manufactured?Manufacturedisunnatural.IcanfeelitwhenIfirstmeetsomeone.Ialwayswonder,“Aretheyreallylikethis?Istheirlifesoordered?”

Filipinodesignerswhogrewupherehaveconfrontedme.Theywerebornandraisedhere,andwhentheyseeme,theytellmethatmyworkdoesn’tlooklikeaFilipinomadeit.Itellthemthatsomeonewithtwoculturesformedit.AndIcan’thelpbutwonderwhattheyexpected,whattheywerelookingfor.

What do you think they’re looking for?IthinkthattheywerelookingforanoldscriptthatisnativetothePhilippines.Somepeopledon’tsee




thisinmywork,andtheythinkthat’sproblematic.Otherpeopleexpectmetobeseverelymonochro-maticinmywork,andnotusetropicalcolorsatall.Itellpeoplethatmyprocesscanonlybearrivedatbysomeonewhoknowsbothculturesandbothlanguages.AnAmericandesignercannotworklikethisandcannotthinklikethissimplybecausetheydidnotgothroughmyexperiences.

Do you have a certain process that you go through when you’re working?

Myprocessinvolvesalotofsketchinganddrawing.Notinanelaborateway—it’smorebecauseIdon’tknowhowtousethecomputer,soIdon’tstartoutdesigningonacomputer.Ithinkaboutideasfirstandlookattheparametersoftheproject.Some-timeswhenIlookataproblem,thereisasolutionthat’swaitingtobetapped.It’sveryself-evident.SoIwilltrythat.ButthenImovetenstepsawayfromthatandreconsiderwhatIcando.ThenIgoanothertenstepsaway.Itmaynotbeliteral,butItryandmakeconnections.

WhenIpresentthework,Ishowmyclienttheveryrationalwaytheconnectionshaveevolved.Istartwiththeself-evidentsolutionandtakethemonthejourneyofmythinking.WhentheyseewhatIsee,it’snolongerasurprise;itmakesperfectrationalsense.It’snotabout,“Whyisitrednow?Whyisitbiggernow?”Thoseminorissuesdonothavetobedealtwithbecausetheclientisviewingthebiggerpicture.Thatbigjumpisexponentialforthem,butthejourneygivesthemtheabilitytoseebeyondthetacticalandtheanticipated.

When you’re taking them on this journey, do you do it by displaying a visual record of the process or do you articulate it verbally?

Both.SomepeopleaskmehowmanylayoutsIshow.OrhowmanylogosIpresent.Earlyoninmycareer—beforeIlivedinCalifornia—IlivedinNew


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York.Iwas32andLandorcalledmeintoworkonsomelogosforSaturn.So,Igotcalledintodraw,andIwasdoingallthiswork,butIknewtheywouldnevergoforwhatIwasdoing.Afewweekslater,therewasawholeconferenceroomfulloflogos,andmyworkwaspepperedin.ButIknewthattheyweren’tgoingtogoformywork,andthatitwasaploy;itwasallaploytodistractandgivetheclienttheirmoney’sworth.Itwasbombardment.

ThatisnotthewayIwork.Iwouldonlyselectafewlogos.

I don’t show everything. I want the process to be transparent. The process is selective. How can you think if you have a roomful?

Honestly,canyoudothat?Youcan’t.Youcan’tcon-centrateonanythingwhenallfourwallsarefilledupwithwork.

Did they pick your logo?No,ofcoursenot.Iwasjusttheretoshakethingsoutalittlebit.

How do you know how far to push?Ithinkthatthereisakindofinevitabilitytomywork.Ihavecriteriainmyhead.DependingonhowwellIknowmyclientandjudgingfromtheinteractionsIhavewiththem,Ideterminehowmuchandhowfartheycanbepushed.Ipaycarefulattentiontoreadingthelittlesignalsinmyinter-actions.That’swhyit’sreallyimportantformetomeetwithpeople.Icanreadthetemperatureoftheroomverywell.

How do you think you’re able to do that?It’sinstinctive.Therearetimeswhen,aftertenminutes,Icanexperiencealevelofengagementwithaclientthatisprofound.Thiscanonlyhappenifthere’sawayofaddressingthemwithwhattheythinkisimportant.




I’llshareanexamplewithyou.Aboutfouryearsago,IwasscheduledtodoalectureinFlorida.Ayoungmanwasassignedtopickmeup.Hewasanolderstudent.Hewasmarried.Wedrovetogetherfor50minutes—fromtheairporttothehotel.Afterthat,Ineversawhimagain.Hejustdroppedmeoff.Hisjobwassimplytopickmeupfromtheairport.Butwetalkedabouthislifeandwhathethoughtheshoulddo,andImadesomerecommendations—thatwasit.

Twoyearslater,IsawhiminVancouverattheAIGAconference,whereIwasgivingatalk.AfterIhadfinished,theyoungmancameuptome.Ihadforgottenhim,andhesaid,“Doyouremem-berwhenyougavealectureinJacksonville,andIpickedyouupfromtheairport?”AndIsaid,“Oh,wereyouthatguy?”Andhesaid,“Yourcommentschangedmylife.”

Now,Ihadn’ttoldhimto“dothis”orto“dothat.”Isimplyaskedhimtothinkaboutwhatwasimportanttohimandtodowhateverhecouldtofollowthroughwithit.Itwasn’tanythingmorespecificthanthat.

Perhapsthisisanoverlysimplisticwayofdefiningwhat’simportant,butIthinkit’shonest.I’mnotamarketerspewingclichéddirectionsforanotherperson.I’mnot.Forme,ouressentialpurposeisaboutconnectingwithanotherperson,anotherculture,andanyonewhoisdifferentorhasadifferentlife.Butourpathsandgoalsarethesame.Peoplewanttobehappy,andtheywanttohaveameasureofsuccessandacknowledgmentofwhotheyare.Theirneedsexistregardlessofnationality,language,orculture.

Weallhavesimilargoals.Onceyoubreakthatbarrierinyourencounters,youcanmakealmosteveryencounterfruitful.IamoftenaskedhowImakeaconnectionorhowIcanenteraboardroomwithtenpeople,mostlymen,andunderstandthetemperatureoftheroomandhowtogaugeit.Itry


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todescribehowIcanknowexactlywhothepersonisintheroomthatneedstobeconvinced.

IknowitbecauseIcanreadit.Iamveryporousandperceptive,andIknowthatifyouasktherightquestions,thequestionsleadtoanswersandthoseanswersareveryrevealingandtellyoueverythingyouwanttoknow.IthinkbecauseI’mnotanAmericanbybirth—Icanbeveryporous.

Anotherculturaldifferencethathasimpactedmeisthis:ThePhilippinesisamatriarchalsociety.Theconceptoffeminismdidn’ttakeastrongfoot-holdinmycountrybecauseitwasalwaysassumedthatwomenarestronger.It’sjustnottalkedaboutverymuch.Wedon’t,asyousay,havetoflexourmuscles.Butinmyfamily,acrosstheboard,thoughthewomenarequietlyinthebackground,themenunderstandthatpowerisevenlydistributed.Rightnow,inthePhilippines,womenholdmanygovern-mentpositions.Weevenhaveawomanpresident.Thatisn’tsoeasyintheUnitedStates.

You recently lived in Rome; how do you feel about coming back to the United States?

NewYorkwasreallyimportanttomeinmydevel-opmentasadesigner.WhenIwasfirsthere20yearsago,Iwaslookingforwork,andIremembermyfirstinterviewwithMichaelBierut.Atthetime,hewasworkingforMassimoVignelli.

Iwenton65jobinterviewswhenIgottoNewYork.IwasconvinceditwouldbeeasiertogetajobbecauseIgraduatedinthewinter.IgraduatedfromCranbrookinDecember,andIcametoNewYorkinJanuary.AllthistimeIwasthinkingI’dhavenocompetition.ButitwasabadtimeeconomicallyinManhattan,andthecitywasgoingthroughagravefinancialslump.Itwasn’tuntilthemid-’80sthateverybodywashigh-flyingagain.Butatthattime,itwasreallyhardformetogetajob.Irememberleav-ingmyportfolioatcompanyaftercompany,show-ingmywork,walkingaroundintheblizzard




inthemiddleofwinterandtrudgingalong.Sixty-fiveinterviewstogetajob!Ithinknow,comingbackafter20years,I’molder,I’mmoremature;it’sthesame,butit’snotthesame.

Why so many interviews?Ihadalist.WhenIgraduated,KathyMcCoy[thencochairofthedesigndepartmentatCranbrookAcademyofArt]gavemealistandtoldmewheretogo.Iwasgreenandoptimistic,butIgotonerejec-tionafteranother.Itwasn’tnecessarilyarejectionbecausemyworkwasn’tgoodenough—everyonekepttellingmethatmyworkwasgreat,butappar-entlynoonehadmuchworkatthetimeandthereweren’tmanyopenings.ThenMichaelBierutstartedtellingmewhomtocall,andmylistgotlongerandlonger.

Iwasverydiligentaboutcallingthesepeople,andIestablishedstrategiesformyself.IwouldtellmyselfthatIwasnotgoingtobeembarrassedcall-ingsomeoneforthethirdtimeinamonth.I’dbeontheotherendoftheline,andI’dbesonervous,andIknewIwasgoingtobedisappointed:AndthenthepersonIwascallingwouldn’teventakethecall.SoIbecamefriendlywiththereceptionists.Andthentheybeganhelpingmeout.I’dalwaystrytofigureoutawaytogetsomeonetotalkwithme.

Oneevening,aftersixo’clock,IcalledacompanyIwantedtoworkforverybadly.Allthereceptionistsweregone,soguesswhoansweredthephone?AubreyBalkindhimself.Weendeduptalkingonthephoneforanhour,andIknewIcouldgoanywhereifItriedhardenough.Andafterawhile,Ijustgotshameless.

Did you get a lot of work this way?Workandconnections.Afterawhile,thenumberofinterviewsIhadbecameajoke.PeoplewouldaskmehowmanyIhadandI’dlookatmycalendar,andI’dsayBierutwasnumberone,andthenIhadSteff


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Geissbuhler,he’snumberwhatever.Andthepersoninterviewingmewouldsay,“Gosh,I’mnumber55?”Theywouldlaugh,andIknewsomeofthepeopleIwasinterviewingwithwerecommunicatingwitheachotherandthey’dconfertogetherandask,“DidyouinterviewthewomanfromthePhilippineswhowenttoCranbrook?”Andthey’dcomparenumbers.Soitbecameabitofajoke.

Who gave you your first job?Becauseofmyarrogance,MichaelBierutwasmyfirstinterview.Mysecondinterviewwaswithasmalldesignfirmthathadopenedayearbefore.Ihadneverheardofthem.ThecompanywasHarmon,Kemp.MarshallHarmonandDavidKemp.Iinterviewedwiththem,andtheyofferedmeathree-monthjobworkingonaprojectforInternationalPaper.ButIwasasnobandIthought,“Threemonths!Iwantafull-timejob!”SoInevercalledthemback.

Laterthatyear,IgotacallfromtherecruiterChrisEdwards.ChrisaskedmeifIwasstilllookingforwork,andwhenItoldhimyes,hetoldmeabouttwogentlemenwhowerelookingforadesigner—andhethoughtitwouldbeperfectforme.Iaskedhimthenameofthecompany,andwhenhetoldmeMarshallHarmonandDavidKemp,allIsaidwas,“Ohshit.”Buthepushedmetocallthem,astheynowhadafull-timeposition.

SoIcalledthemupandatecrow,andMarshalltoldmethatIshouldneversaynotothelittleguys.Hechastisedme.ButIgotthejob,andIworkedthereforfouryears.Now,peoplealwaysaskmeabouttheworkthatIwasdoingatHarmon,Kemp.EllenLuptontoldmeIwasdoingworkatHarmon,Kempthatnooneelsewasdoing.AndIhadnoideathatthisparticulartimeinmylifewouldbeoneofthemostfertileperiodsofmycareer.ButMarshallHarmonandDavidKempweretheoneswhopropelledme.Theygavemeachance.




Yearslater,IwasofferedajobinSanFran-cisco,andIthoughtitmightbeagoodthingtodo.Iwassingleandmobile,andIfiguredifIdiditoncealready,Icouldverywellbeginagain.Andthatisstillmyattitudetoday.NowI’mbackinNewYorkafterlivinginRome.I’m53,andIrealizethatIcametothiscountrywhenIwas25yearsold.ThenumberofyearsI’vebeenhereisnearlyequaltothenumberofyearsthatIlivedinthePhilip-pines.NowIhaveanaffinityforeachcultureandforeachcountry.Ifindit’sawonderfulcombina-tion.AndIcanusebothbackgroundsinmywork.

What do you think your life will be like five years from now?

IwouldliketobeinapositionwhereIcanstillmakegoodworkandstillproduceagoodproduct.I’dlikemyworktohavewide-rangingandwide-reachingrepercussions.Idon’tknowwhatitwillbe,IjustknowthatIcan’toperatestatusquo.Iwon’tworkinanotheroffice;Ican’tdothat.

Iwonderifafterover20yearsofworking,canIstillhaveaprofoundinfluence?I’vecomebacktotheStates,andIknowthatthecumulativeeffectofwhatI’vegonethroughhaschangedandalteredmywork.MyworkhasevolvedandhasbecomeaproductofwhatI’vedone.Idon’tknowwhatthemanifestationofitwillbe.Inmanyways,Ifinditincrediblyexciting.Itishardbutexciting.Andworthit.


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vaughan oli�er

Name an iconic song, and I can tell you everything else that was occurring in my life at the time it was popular: Meat Loaf ’s “Paradise by the Dashboard Light,” for example, had me driving a bronze Pinto, sporting yellow flip-flops, and arguing about the effectiveness of Jimmy Carter’s cabinet.

These remembrances are frozen in time—I have but a scant memory of what might have come before or after, and I find that I can’t recall experiences with the same zeal without the benefit of their musical accompaniments. The song plays, and time slows and then stops as this still-tangible reality pushes forth. The music is as much a part of the memory as the memory is of identity.

Such is the case with the designs of Vaughan Oliver, particularly the hugely influential work he did at 23 Envelope and v23, the studios he cofounded in the 1980s. At these firms, Vaughan created seminal album covers for the British independent record label 4AD and musical artists including the Cocteau Twins, Modern English, This Mortal Coil, and the Pixies. His work with these artists ushered in an unprece-dented era of graphic revolution, and his indisputably unique style has influenced subsequent generations of designers eager to redefine the discipline of design and its possibilities.

In our interview, Vaughan reflected on his legendary beginnings, the recent changes in the music business, and his struggles with self-doubt.



[Oliver begins mid-sentence...]IgetstuckinmylittlemindwhenI’mlefttomyowndevices.

What happens when you get stuck in your own little mind?

Oh,Ithinktheanxietyincreases.Feelingsofself-doubt....

Do you have a lot of feelings of self-doubt?Oh,don’twealways,uscreativepeople?Sometimesyou’reontopoftheworld,andotherdays,youfeelworthlessandwonderwhatyou’vedoneandwhatyou’redoing.

What do you do when that happens? How do you manage to crawl out of that?

Quitesimply,Igoforawalk.Ilikegreen.Wehaveabeautiful,commongreen[park]thatI’mstillexploringtenyearslater.Ienjoythat.Rathermorethanthepublichouse[pub];thepublichousecanonlyleadyoufurtherintoself-doubt.

In what way?Itcangoeitherway,intermsofchangingyourchemistry.Ithinkitcansuspendtheself-doubtforafewhours.Thenyou’rebacktoit.

Do you think that self-doubt helps the creative process in some way?

Notmine.Iusedtosufferalotlessintheoldhalcyondaysinthe1980sand1990s,whenIhadadeadlineeveryday.Atthetime,Ihadtwoassistants,andIwasworkingintheofficesof4AD,whereIwasdoingalotofwork.Therewasalotofactivityaroundme,andthedeadlineswererelentless.Thecreativitywasrelentless.Therewaslessroomforself-doubt.Wewereonaroll.Anditwasn’tonlyme;itwasaperiodintimewhenwewereblessedwiththerightjuxtapositionsofsocial,cultural,and


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artisticinfluences.Afterpunkandpost-punk,alongwiththegreatblossomingofdesignaware-ness,independentrecordlabelsandindependentdesignerswereflourishing.

When do you think that period ended?Itseemedtodip—tomepersonally,Idon’tknowaboutotherpeople—aroundthemid-’90s.AndifIcanspeakspecifically,themusicbusinesschangedalotinthatperiod.Theadventurousindependentswereconsumedbythemajors.Andthemajorswereincreasinglyrunbyaccountants,whomanagedtothrowoutthemenwiththerecordcollections.Ithink,generallyspeaking,thatallofthebudgetschanged.Thewholeindustrychangedaroundthattime.

Also,forapersonwhoisnotrunningabusi-nesswithotherpeople—andI’mnottheonlyone—it’sbeenanunusualperiodadaptingtothetechnol-ogy.Idon’tmindtalkingaboutthis20yearslater,asIamstilladaptingtoit.ButIexpectedtobeabletorelaxalittlebit,intermsoftheeffortthatIputin.

And have you found that you can’t?No,Ican’t.It’sakindofdifferentworldnow,intermsofincome,etc.Iprobablyearnabout30percentofwhatIusedtointhe’90s.

Do you feel that’s a result of the technological changes, or do you feel like that’s a result of cultural changes?

Ithinkit’sacombination.Idon’tthinkit’soneortheother.Again,thereareanumberofchanges.Thewholethingseemstohaveshiftedawayfromthelikesofmyself,thedisempowered.

How do you feel that you’re disempowered?Ithinkit’sthedisempowermentthatfuelsself-doubt.Idon’tknow,it’s—maybeit’sjustme.MaybeIjustfeellesswanted.Istillhavearelationshipwith4AD;butagain,theirbudgetswerecuttoaminimum.So

vA u G H A n o L i v e r



I’mworkingforlessthanIwasgettingtenyearsago.SoI’vegottodoajobmorequickly.

Butpersonallyspeaking,I’vestruggledbecauseIneverhadabusinesspartner.AndI’mnotnaturallyactiveinthatway.I’mambitiouscreatively,butI’veneverbeenambitiousbusiness-wise.Whereasmy15,16yearsofbusinessat4ADfedmecreativelyandsatisfiedmecreatively.Iwascocooned;Inevergotout.Inevernetworkedormetpeople.IthinkIsufferfromthat.WhyhaveIstartedoffonthisthread?

[Laughter.]It’stheendoftheweek,andIwouldlikesome

moneyfortheweekend,please.I’veneverfeltcomfortableaboutmyselfor

mywork.Iwasbroughtupjusttheopposite:Ifyouspokeaboutyourself,youwerebeingtoobold.Andoneshouldalwaysshowcuriosityabouttheotherhalfoftheconversation.

So you basically wait for people to come to you and say, “We need your genius . . .”

Theylessfrequentlydo,really.SoI’mnotveryactiveinfindingnewbusiness,I’veneverreallybeengoodatit.4ADstillfeedsmemusic,whetherit’sScottWalker,or,morerecently,TVontheRadio.Thatmovesme.Istillwanttoworkwiththesepeo-pleandwanttomakethemhappywiththepackagesfortheirmusic.Ifyou’restillturnedonbyit,Idon’tthinkageisaboundarytoyourinvolvement.

Let’s talk about how you work. Do you feel that you’re more of an intuitive designer, or more intellectual and formal in your approach?

I’dliketothinkthere’salittlebitofboth.I’dliketothinkthatthereareideasandconceptsbehindwhatIdoandwhyIstartprojects.ButoftenwhenIstarttoexplainthoseideasorconcepts,folksfindthembizarreorbanal,andtheyaren’talwaysimmedi-atelyrecognizable.


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How do you get people to understand them?Imakesomepictures.Andspeakthoughtfullyabouttheirwork.I’mspeakingspecificallyaboutthemusicbusinesshere,althoughmyworkismuchbroader.Ithinkweworkveryidiosyncratically,intuitively,andorganically.Itmightbeonewordonanalbumthatsetsitoff.Theideasareinthatword.Itrytodescribethetoneandthetexturesandtheatmosphereofthemusic.

Isaidsomewhererecentlythatwewerenotinterestedinreachingtheaudience—andinretro-spect,thatwasanuntruethingtosay.Butfirstandforemost,Iamkeenonsatisfyingthemusicians,forwhomIinvariablyhavegreatrespect.Butgraphicdesignisnothingifitdoesn’tcommunicate.

While words like “mystery” and “ambiguity” can be used to describe our work, that work still needs to communicate a message.

Ithinkourworkhasbeensuccessfulbecauseweleaveitopen.We’renottryingtodefineanything.Butatthesametime,we’renotjustsettlingforthebandwidthlike,“Thisisthesignifieryougetfromtheirclothesandtheirhair,andthewaytheyholdtheirinstruments.”Iwouldliketothinkthere’sadeeperimaginationthatisbroughttobear.

Imaginationisanold-fashionedword,butIstillbelieveinit.It’sanold-fashionedterm,like“care”and“quality.”Old-fashionedvaluesandthingsarestillattheheartofwhatwedo.

Did you always want to be a graphic designer?WhenIleftschool,Ithought,“Iwanttoworkinart.”Ilovedmusicandrecordsleeves—itwasassimpleasthat.AndIthoughtthebestwaytoachievethiswastostudygraphicdesign.

Ioriginallythoughtaboutpursuingfineartbutimmediatelyreconsidered.Icouldn’thelpbutwonderhowmanypaintersmakealivingattheend




oftheday.Therewasapracticalsidetome,andIneededtomakealiving.Let’snotforgetthatIamaworking-classboyfromtheNortheast!Ihadnorealcontactsinbusinessandnorealunderstandingofwhereonecouldgofromafine-artcurriculum;Ithought,“Graphicdesigncanleadtoajob.”

AndIrememberturningupforaninterviewatthecollegeinmyschooluniform,withatie,sweater,andtheschoolbadgeontheblazer.Theinterviewroomwasinthespacewherepeoplemetforcoffee.Afterseeingallthepaintsplatteredoverthehallsand3Dhairdos,Ifeltsostraight!

Iremembergoingintotheinterviewandbeingaskedwhatgraphicdesignmeant.Andthatmorning,I’dbeenwiseenoughtoreachforthedic-tionaryandjustreiteratedwhatI’dreadthere:Thatdesignwasintendedformassreproduction.Thentheinterviewerwantedmetoexpandonthat,andallIcoulddowasrepeatit.

SoIdidn’thaveanynotionofwhatgraphicdesignreallywas.Ididn’tdaresayIwantedtodesignrecordsleeves;thatwasn’tapotentialprofes-sioninthosedays.Allthroughcollege,Ifocusedonillustration;Isawitasameansofpersonalexpres-sioninthecommercialworld.Iactuallyavoideddesign.Infact,theonlygraphicdesignerI’dheardofafterthreeyearsofcollegewasMiltonGlaser.Ididn’treallyhaveafascinationforgraphicdesignanditshistory.

Ileftcollegeunderacloud;itwasverydisap-pointing.AndIappliedforjobslocally,butnoonewasinterested.Iwasasmall-townboy;Ididn’treallywanttogotoLondon—Iresistedforalongtime.Iappliedforthepoliceforce.Iwasdeliveringbread.IwantedtodoanythingbutwhatIseemedobligedtodo.IcametoLondonandcouldn’tgetajobinillustrationaftertwoweeks.Ratherthangetabadjob,Imovedintodesign;andslowlythingsbegantotakeoff.


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So this was something that happened naturally for you, in terms of your ability to practice graphic design? Did you ever feel like you had to struggle to understand how to do this?

Initially,yes.ThefirstpieceofartworkIputtogetherfor4ADwasthefirstpieceofartworkIputtogether,ever.

So how did you know it was good?Ididn’t.Intermsofdevelopingartthatwaspracti-calforprint,Ineededalotofconversationswiththeprintertopreparetheworkcorrectly.

But what about the aesthetic?HowdoIknowwhenit’sright?That’sagoodques-tion:Howdoyouknowwhenit’sright?Howdoyouknowwhentostop?Youjustdo.Youjustdo.Ithinkit’sacombinationofbeingsatisfiedandtheclientbeingsatisfied.That’sgenerallywhereI’dstop.Moreoftenthannot,inthoseearlydays,Iwasfullofwantingtochangethings,andIwantedtodosomethingdifferent.Iwantedtogoagainstthegrain.IsupposeIamapunkatheart,eventhoughIdidn’thaveapunkaesthetic.ButIfoundIwasgen-erallyatloggerheadswiththebandsIwasworkingwith.Theywouldconstantlytellme:“Thisiswhatweneed.Thisiswhatweshouldhave.”ButIwasshowingthemthingsthattheyhadn’tseenthelikesofbefore.

We were trying to do record sleeves that didn’t look like record sleeves, and we had to believe in what we were doing if we were going to get anyone else to believe it, too.

Irememberoneday—IthinkIwasworkingonthefirstModernEnglishalbum—Iwasdesigningaphotographwithinaborder,withanicebitoftypecenteredatthetopandanicebitoftypeatthebot-tom.AndIrecalloneoftheseniordesignerssaying,“That’smorelikeit!Itlooksmorelikearecord




sleeve.”Atthatpoint,I’ddonesomethingwrong.IknewI’ddonesomethingwrong.Itlookedpredict-able.That’snotwhatIwasafter.

You said that you were at loggerheads with some of the bands. I find that interesting, given where we started the conversation. You felt very strongly you wanted to do something different. What gave you the courage to do that?

Well,justtheveryoppositeofself-doubt.Beingbullish.Ithinkattheendoftheday,Ialwayswantedtotaketheworkfurther.It’snotthatIhadparticularlystrongpersuasivepowers.Inthosedays,Ididn’tknowhowtosellajob.ButIalwayshadambitionsformyworktobetimeless.

SometimesI’lllookbackandI’llseecertainpackagedesignsthatI’vedone,andIthinktherearesomethatlookdated,andthensomethingchanges,andsuddenlyit’sclassic.Andthen,afteracertainamountoftime,itbecomestimeless,accepted,andbeloved.ButIalwaysthinkthere’sthatpainbarrierbeforeitmorphsintothat.

What do you think about the music industry right now?I’mnotsureI’mqualifiedtosay,butIthinkit’sinasadpredicament.Thereisalackofrebelliousnessandsurprise.Ialsoseethisinstudents.Ithinkwe’regoingthroughaperiodwheretheconceptofayoungpersonbeingrebelliousisunusual.Ithinkwe’regoingthroughaperiodwherestudentsintheU.K.aregoingtocollegenotforaneducationbuttogetajob.AndIseestaff-to-studentratiosof1to100.Onestaffto100students—Ifindthatshocking.

How do you see yourself in the future? What will make you the happiest?

Whatwouldmakemehappiest?Iwouldliketogetbackmyloveforgraphicdesign,becauseIthinkI’velostit.Idon’twantthistosoundlikealamentfortheoldendays,butIfindthatworkingonadrawing


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boardwithaparallelmotionandhavingascalpelwithacommaontheendofit—andplacingthatcommaintoafiligreelistwithabitoftype—wasverysatisfying.Ifoundthattherewasaphysicalandmentalconnectionbetweenmybrain,myheart,anddownmyarm;Ihadadegreeofprecision,withatool,andIhadasenseofcraft.Andthat’swhatImiss,really,thatsenseofcraft.Imisshavingphysi-callydoneaday’sworkattheendofaday.

Butagain—itdoesn’thavetobeoneortheother.TherearesomanyfantasticthingsaboutthecomputerthatIenjoy.ButaquestionabouthowmuchIenjoyworkisalsoconnectedtowhereIaminlifeandthekindsofthingsI’vegonethroughandhowmuchconfidenceIhave.Itiseasytoloseconfidencewhenthingsimplode.Andthedesignerthrivesonconfidence.Forme,it’sjustseepingback.



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steff Geissbuhler

I first met Steff Geissbuhler in 2005, the night he was honored with the American Institute of Graphic Arts’ Medal for his sustained contribution to design excel-lence and the development of the design profession. As crowds of well-wishers clamored around to con-gratulate him, he was humble and gracious. These are only a few of the accomplishments and qualities that define this influential and inspiring practitioner.

Steff is among the most important designers of brand and corporate identity programs in the world. Before launching C&G Partners, he was a principal at Chermayeff & Geismar for 30 years. He has worked for a broad spectrum of international and national clients, creating printed materials for Philip Morris, the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, and Morgan Stanley. He designed the venerable identity for NBC, a new identity system for the New York Public Library, and environmental signage for the IBM building in Manhattan.

While Steff ’s influence on our visual culture is vast, design also runs deep in his family’s roots: His grandfather was an architect, his mother created tapestries, and his godfather was a lithographer. Still, Steff is a thoroughly modern designer, both in scope and in style. His work is single-minded, telegraphic, and utterly timeless.



What was your first creative memory?Icouldn’ttellwhichwasthefirst,butI’msureithadsomethingtodowithexploringanddiscovering,whetheritwasthearchitectureinaleaf,awoodenblockbalancingonanother,orformingashapeinthesandboxwithouta“form.”Ihavethis1949calen-dar,whichIcreatedinkindergartenattheageofsix,whereweglued,stitched,anddrewoneachpagetorepresenteachmonth.Mostofitwassortofprede-termined—asnowmaninJanuary,afloweringtreeinMay,andapplesinSeptember.However,therewereindividualvariationsinhowyoucut,pasted,orcolored-inthings.Icanstillsmelltheglue.

When you were young, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Asoldier,abutler,acowboy,andanIndianchief.However,IdidnotwanttobeanyofthesethingswhenIgrewup—Iwantedtobethemthen.


Ataboutage15.ThepostershangingalloverSwitzerlandappealedtome,madebydesignerslikeCelestinoPiatti,HerbertLeupin,ArminHofmann,HansErni,HerbertMatter,andothers.


Music.Iplayedthecellofor12yearsandtheuprightbassinajazzquintet.ButIfoundthatplayinggigsonweekendswasstartingtohindermeindrawingbecausemyfingerswouldbeswollenwhenIheldthecharcoalonMondaymorning.Also,mycelloteacheraskedmeoncehowmanycellistswererecordingintheworld.WhenIcouldn’tanswerwithmorethanfivenames,IrealizedthatIwasn’tgoingtobegoodenough,anditdampenedmyambitionsasamusician.Thatdidn’tstopmykidsfromlatercallingme“YoyoPa.”


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What did you study in college?IstudiedgraphicdesignattheAllgemeineGewer-beschuleinBasel,Switzerland,forsixyearsandgraduatedwithadiplomaequivalenttoanMAhereintheU.S.MyeducationinBaselhasdefinitelyinfluencedmythinkingmorethananythingelse.

Do you work primarily by hand or with a computer?Both.Alotofsketchinghappensawayfromthecomputer,insketchbooks,onsnipsofpaper,thebacksofenvelopes,etc.Thecomputerthenbecomesaproductiontool,wherealternativeversionscanbequicklygeneratedandvariationscanbeexplored.

Someideas,however,aredirectlygener-atedwiththecomputer,becausetheycannotbesketched,duetotheircomplexityandthemechanicsoftheirconstruction.


Yes,it’scalledresearch.IlearnabouttheclientasmuchasIcan,understandtheproblemfromthegroundup,whothecompetitionis,whotheaudienceis.Thencomesthinkinganddoodling,exploringthevisualpotential,andalwayswithaconsiderationofwhatthemediais,makingsureofthedesign’sfunctionalityandappropriateness.

When starting a project, how do you feel emotionally?IwantthisprojecttobethebestIeverdid.Iwantittobedifferent,groundbreaking;Ifeelverycharged.ThecloserIgettoapresentation,themoreanxiousIget,especiallyifI’mnotconvincedthatIhaveyetfoundthesolution.

When do you know a project is finished?Aprojectisfinishedwhentheclientishappyandpaid-up.

s T e F F G e i s s B u H L e r




Whenitperformsasitwasmeantto.Whenit’snewanddifferent.Whentheclientiscomingbackformore.

How confident are you in your own judgment?Itrustmyownjudgment,butthenagain,Iusuallyshowtheworktomypartnerstocheck.That’swhyIhavepartners,ratherthanbeingasolodesigner.

Can you tell me about a project that was going badly that you turned around? How did you rescue it?

Ihonestlycan’trememberanyprojectsthatfitthatdescription.Alloftheprojectsthatwentbadlyundermywatchkeptgoingsouruntiltheywerejusttoobad,beyondrepair,orlost.Inmostcases,ithastodowithbadchemistrybetweentheclientandmyself.However,Icanrememberafewsitua-tionswheretheclientcomplainedtomeaboutoversights,repeatedtypos,ormisspellings,oranattitudeproblembyanemployeeofmine.Inallthesesituations,Ibelieveitwasmyfaultfornotwatchingoveritornotbeinginvolvedenoughandassumingthatotherpeoplewouldbecareful,con-siderate,andattentive.I“rescue”thesescenariosbypayingpersonalattentionandinsertingmyselfintheminutedetailsoftheprocess—orbydoingitmyself.

How important to your work is writing?Writingisaveryimportantpartofmywork,intheproposal,e-mail,andpresentation;inwritingorrewritingcopy;andindescribingaprojectforapublicationafterit’sdone.I’mjealousofpeoplewhocanexpressthemselvesreallywellwiththewrittenword.



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Ifindthatadifficultquestiontoanswer.PerhapsI’man“intuitiveintellectual”designer.

Intuition plays a large role in my work and has rarely let me down. I often intellectualize my work after the fact.

Is there a favorite place, thing, or person from which you draw inspiration?

Mywife.

Who is your favorite graphic designer? A.M.Cassandre.

Why?A.M.Cassandrewastheultimateposterdesigner—heknewexactlyhowtousescale,perspective,focus,andcolortoexpresstheessenceofthemes-sage.Hewasoneofthefewpainterswhocreatedandunderstoodthepoweroftheposterand,withthat,createdtheprofessionwenowcall“graphicdesign.”Hisformalideashaveneverlostpowerandgrabmetothisday.Hemadetypographyanintegralpartoftheimage.Hetranslatedtheessenceofathing—likeatrain,aship,oraperson—tothemost“graphic”expression.Actually,IcouldsayprettymuchthesamethingsaboutArminHofmann.Otherfavoritegraphicdesignersofyesterdayandtoday:Toulouse-Lautrec,AlphonseMucha,LucianBernhard,WolfgangWeingart,PierreMendell.


ArminHofmannhasdefinitelyinfluencedmemorethananybodyelse.

How so?Heshowedmehowtodiscovervisualideasbyexploringformandcolorrelationships.Heshowed




metheevolutionofathinkingprocessthroughsketching,ratherthanjustthinking.Heinstilledaconfidenceinmetoalwaysfindasolutiontoavisualproblem.Hemademelookandsee.Hehasawon-derfulsenseofhumor,andIfeelveryclosetoArminandDorothea,hiswife,assoulmates,eventhoughwespeakmaybeonlytwiceayearthesedays.

What is your favorite typeface? Rightnow,it’sInterstate.Tomorrow,itmightbeTheSans.IalwayslovedHelveticaandUniversinallcuts,weights,andslants.Ican’thelpit,I’mSwiss!


It’saveryexcitingtimeforusgraphicdesigners,becauseourprojectsgetmoreandmorecomplexandchallenging,andthefieldofdesignisgettingwiderandwider.

What do you think of Ken Garland’s 1964 First Things First manifesto?

I’m totally in support of the First Things First manifesto and consider it one of the most important critical writings in design.

I’mluckytohavehadtheopportunitytoworkwithmanyhumanitarian,cultural,andnot-for-profitclientsaswellascause-relatedprojects.Wearenotinvolvedincommercialadvertisingandrarelydoproductbranding;how-ever,thepointsofthemanifestoapplytoalldesignworkanddesigners.Weallhavetomakechoices.

What do you think of the First Things First 2000 manifesto?

Itwasanimportantrevisitationoftheoriginal.I’mnotsure,however,howmuchchangebothofthesemanifestoscausedinactualattitudeandintellectualapproach.Moneykeepsonwinning.


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What do you think of Milton Glaser’s “12 Steps on the Road to Hell”? What number have you crossed?

IhadthefortunetoneverhavehadtodoanyoftheexactthingsMiltonislisting.However,Idesignedformanyyearstheannualreportforacigarettemanufacturer,forexample,butthesamecompanyalsosponsoredmypostersforNewYorkCity’sculturalaffairseventsandthevisualidentityfortheAlvinAileyAmericanDanceTheater.Icertainlydancedafewroundswiththedevilinmycareer,andheoftentookthelead.



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stephen Doyle

Stephen Doyle is principal and creative director at Doyle Partners, a New York–based studio known for its eloquence in all things graphic design. Previously an art director for Tibor Kalman at M&Co, as well as a member of the art departments at RollingStone and Esquire, Stephen is comfortable working in numerous media for a stunning variety of clients. To wit: He was the founding creative director of the irreverent Spy magazine and also developed the brand identity for K-Mart’s line of Martha Stewart Everyday products. He often cites fine art as an inspiration for infusing his design with a sense of humanity and personal engagement.

For our conversation, Stephen gave me the option of interviewing him either in his office or at the home he shares with his wife, Gael Towey, the chief creative officer of Martha Stewart Living. I chose to meet him at his Greenwich Village town-house, and though I was both excited and intimidated by the idea of being in the home of such a power couple, my worries were unfounded. A warm and engaging family greeted me; they laughed as they prepared their dinner, and they were genuinely down-to-earth.

Over a bottle of marvelous wine, Stephen and I talked about why he feels his design work is reductive, why he doesn’t believe in perfect, and the notion of art as a “fearless perch.”



What was your first creative memory?ItwasinFrenchclassingradeschool,whenitoccurredtomethatIwantedtobeanarchitect.Oneofourprojectswastodesignahouseasawayofget-tingkidstolearnthewordsforhouse,door,window,andotherarchitecturalelements.ThehouseIdrewwasdifferentfromeverybodyelse’s.Itwasabig,modernhouse,withglassallaroundandabig,lean-ingceiling.Irememberexperiencingafeelingofelationattheideaofbeingabletomakesomethingdifferentfromwhateverybodyelsemade.

Really?Itdistinguishedmeinsomeway,inadifferentcurrency.Iwasn’tthetallestkid,Iwasn’tthesmall-estkid,butevenatareallyearlyage,Irealizedimaginationcoulddifferentiateme.

How did people react to this piece of art you created that was so different from everybody else’s? Were you given a lot of compliments? Did people think you were weird?

Well,Igotan“A”inFrench!No,nobodythoughtitwasweird.Thatismyearliestmemory,soIdon’tremembermanyofthesocialdynamicsofthetime.MichaelBierutmayrememberhisfourth-gradeFrenchclassbetterthanI.

Irememberaroundabouteighthgrade—orwhenyougetintothatphaseofpubertywhenyouareveryawkwardandveryunsureofyourself—Iwasallowedtohaveaspecialplaceinclassbybeingthekidwhocoulddraworthekidwhowascreative.Iwasn’tathletic,soIwasn’tdistinguish-ingmyselfinthatway.ButeventheathletickidsrespectedmebecauseIhadthisspecialtalent.Anditwasnicetohavesomethingthatwasrespected,somethingdifferentfromeveryoneelse’sabilities.Becausetheusualtalentsinhighschoolaresportsandbrains.


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Now do you still feel that the talent you have is special?

Absolutely.Wewerejustatabigfamilyparty,andIwassittingnexttooneofmysisters-in-law,andshesaid,“Youknow,Mike[mybrother-in-law]thinksyou’rereallycool.”Mike’sabanker,buthethinksI’mcoolbecauseIgettoworkwithDavidByrne,andthestrangenessofthethingsI’mexposedtoearnmeaspecialplaceinhisheart.

When you had that experience in your French class, did you know from that moment on that you wanted to utilize that special power as your vocation? Or was this something that came later?

Ididn’tknowmuchabout“vocation”then,butIdiddreamaboutbeinganarchitect.IrealizedataveryearlyagethatIwaswillingtosellmysoultothedeviltobecreative.

Really?Yes.OnceIfeltwhatthatfeltlike,IknewthatwaswhereIwantedtogo.Ididn’tknowhowtogoaboutit,Ididn’tknowanythingaboutcareersintheartsatthattime.

Did you think you wanted to be a painter?Ididwanttobeapainter.Itookartclasses,butIwasn’taverygoodpainter.ThoughIdidworkhardatit.WhenIwasinhighschool,IreadJulius Caesar,andmycopyofthebookhadabeautifuldrawingofJuliusCaesaronthecover.ItfeaturedabigsplotchofredwhereCaesarwasstabbed.Ilookedonthebackofthebookanditsaid:“CoverdesignbyMiltonGlaser.”Atthatmoment,IfeltthatMiltonGlaserwasaonparwithWilliamShake-speareandJuliusCaesar,anditwasallbecauseofthiscover.IthinkIknewthenthattherewasawaytoaccessthisworld,butatthetimeIstilldidn’tknowwhatthatwas.

s T e p H e n D o y L e



So when did you know that you wanted to be a “designer”?

WhenIcametoNewYorktogotoschoolatCooperUnion,Ienrolledinallofthepaintingclasses,butIkeptgettingkickedoutbecausetheteacherswereabstractexpressionists,andtheywantedtheirwayofpaintingtobehonored.Anditdidn’tmakeanysensetometobepaintingthatwayinthe’70s.Iwaspursuingaverydifferentkindofnarrativeart.Andtheydidn’tgetit.Onebyone,Igotkickedoutoftheclassesthere.It’sasmallschool,soIwasrunningoutofclassestotakeandfinallydecidedIwouldhaveagoatdesign.

Istarteddoingworkinmydesignclassthatwashumorous—whichiswhatIwasdoinginthepaintingclassesthatdidn’tgooverwell—andtheteacherswereamusedbyit.Theyencouragedme,becausetheysawitasaparticulardesignvoice.Andassoonasthathappened,Iknewthiswastheworldforme,becauseteachersweren’tthreatenedbythedesignthatIwasmakingjustbecauseitwasn’tserious.Itwastakingitselfseriously,butithadakindofahumanismandahumanityandwitaboutitthatdidn’tthreatenthem.

What do you love most about design?Ilovethatdesignisawaytotranslatealanguageforanaudience.It’sawaytointerpretwordsandmes-sagesandstoriesandnarrativesandideas,andputtheminfrontofpeopleinawaythatmakesiteasierforthemtounderstand.It’salanguageandit’sacurrency.Thatsoundssoserious!

Ialsolovethatdesigngivesyouanopportu-nitytobeconstantlylearning.Ifeellikemyentirecareerisgraduateschoolforme,becauseIlearnaboutalldifferentkindsofbusinesses.AndIgettounderstandittothedegreethatIcantranslateitforotherpeople.Ithinkthatlearningkeepsyouyoungandvitalandengaged.Ican’twaittogettoworkeveryday.Icouldtakeanother20minuteswiththe


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newspaper,butIlovetogothereanddowhatIdowiththepeoplewithwhomI’mdoingit.Ihaveasmallstudio—we’rejust10or11people—sowegettochoosewhoweworkwithverycarefully.

Do you turn down a lot of work?Wedo.Andthat’sthebestpart.Becausebyturningdownwork,IcanworkwithpeoplewhoIwanttoworkwithanddotheworkthatIthinkneedstobedone.

What kind of work do you turn down?Ourpolicyistotrytoturndowneverythingunlesswe’retheonlypeoplewhocoulddothejobreallywell.Ifit’sagraphicdesignjobandsomebodyelsecoulddoit,there’snopointinusgettinginvolved.There’satrajectoryinourofficethat’saboutliteracyandliteratenessandhumanityandsocialresponsibility,andalotofthatworknobodyelsecando.That’swhywedoit.

When you say that nobody else can do it, what do you mean? What is it about your studio that makes you specifically so appropriate to do that kind of work?

There’sakindofacademicliteracyaboutusandourapproach.Wehaveaverylanguage-orientedapproachtomostproblems,soit’sabouthoninglanguageandpresentingvisualsthatreinforcethat.It’saboutprojectsthatneedhumanity.We’renotimagers;wedon’tdoworkintheworldoffashion.Wedoalotofretailworkthat’saboutpositioning,liketheBarnes&Noblelogo,andenvironmentalworkthatdeterminesthetypographicvocabularyinastore.Thepackagingwe’vedoneforMarthaStewartisallaboutengagingthereaderandinstill-ingatypeofmagnetismtothepackagethathelpsexplainwhat’sinit.Itexplainsthemystique.It’saveryliteralmystique,butit’salsoveryfriendlyandtasteful.




How do you know when something you’ve created is well-designed?

I know that something’s welldesigned when it makes my mouth water.

You have an actual, physical reaction?Aphysical,visceral,Pavlovianreactiontothisthing.There’ssomeconnectionbetweenseeingandtastingforme.

So your mouth waters, and then you know it’s good.Yes,Icanfeelit,andIcantasteit.It’sphysical.

Does that happen with all the jobs that you do? Do you wait for the moment when that happens, so you know a project is complete?

No,theydon’tallmakemesalivate.There’samomentwhenI’mworkingonsomethingwithmyteam,andIfeeltheworktranscend.Sometimesthehairstandsuponyourarm.ThenImakecopies,andIbringithometoshowGaelandthekids,andIgo,“Hey,checkthisout!”Andthey’relike,“Yeah,you’reright.”Weallknowsomething’sgoingonthatwasn’ttherebefore.Wefeelit.Andthere’susuallynotawholelotofdisagreement.

Everythingwedoisnotexcellent,certainly.Idon’tknowthattherearemanypeoplewhocancontinuallyproduceexcellence.Thefunistryingtodoit.Whenyou’reakid,it’sthemakingofthetreehousethat’sthedelight;it’snothavingthetreehouseattheend.Oncesomethingisproduced,I’msouninterestedinit.

Really?Ican’tstandit.It’sold.TheprojectthatI’mcurrentlyworkingon,theproblemthatIhaven’tyetcracked—thatreallyentertainsme.


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Do you see the end result of your work as producing a solution to a problem?

No,it’saprocessoffindingasolution,andthatiswhat’sexciting.Veryoftenyoustartoutwithanidea,thenyouchaseit,andyoupushit,andyougoallthewayaroundtheworld,andyoucomerightbacknextdoortowhereyoustarted.Butit’sonlybyprovingthatcirclethatyouknowwhat’svital.Andasyougetoldlikeme,sometimesyoucandothatloopquickerandquicker.

Do you find that you often have instant solutions for design problems?

Yes.

How often are they instant and how often are they labored?

WhenThe New York TimescallsandasksifIcandoanOp-Edpiece,Itrytodoitonthephonewiththeartdirectorrightthenandthere.IfI’vebeguntocrackit,thenIknowIcanspendthetimeonit.ButifIcan’tfindawedge,oraplacetoputawedgein,oracrackintheproblem,thenI’llpass.Idon’thavethetimetochase.IfindthatI’vebecomea“meetingthinker.”Icangenerateallkindsofideasinameet-ingwhenthere’sanaudience.IfindthatIcanreallythinkonmyfeet,andit’seasierthanthinkingalone.

What do you think gives you that ability?Foolhardiness,fearlessness,humor.IcouldnevermakemyselfthatvulnerableifIwasn’tabletomessaroundwiththeclientandgetoutofallkindsofscrapeswithasenseofhumor.

What do you think gives you your sense of fearlessness? What does that come from?

Experienceandameasureofcraftsmanship.Iknowhowtomakethingswithmyhands.Ihadareallygoodeducationandlearnedhowtomakethings.




Asaresult,I’munafraidofsolvingproblemswithmyhands.AndI’mnotafraidofgettinginovermyheadwiththeexecution.Iknowthatanythingcanbedone.

Where do you think your sense of verbal fearlessness comes from?

Ihavenoidea.ButIcantellyouthatwhenIbegintotalkthisway,eventhekidsinmystudiopullbackandstarttolookatmefunny.

Who would you say has most influenced you in your design career?

I’vehadalotofmentors.Iguessthefirstbiggestinfluencewasanartteacherinhighschool.IwenttoaJesuithighschooloutsideofBaltimore,andhehelpedmetothinkofartasafearlessperch.

Really? How did he do that?Bynotbeingaperfectionist.Itrytomakethingsreallygood,andthenItrytomakesomethingelse.Idon’tevertrytomakeanythingperfect.Infact,Idon’tbelieveinperfect.Ibelieveinreallygood.Ibelieveinahandmadeobjectthatretainsevidenceofitshandmade-ness.Andthat,bynature,isneverperfect.Asdesigners,wedon’tmake“justonething.”Oneprojectisnottheendoftheworld,andit’snottheonlythingtobemade.Apaintingisjustapainting,andtherearemorepaintings.Andyouhavetomakemanytobegintomakegoodones,eventhoughIneveraccomplishedthat.

TheworkthatIdo,somepeoplethinkit’sprecious,somethinkit’snotsoprecious.IrecentlyreadonArminVit’sWebsiteBrandNewadiscus-sionabouttheMarthaStewartlogothatwejustredesigned.ThelasttimeIchecked,therewere48entrieswithcommentssuchas,“Theweightsofthestemsarealittlebituneven....”Andsoforth.Icouldnotbelievehowmuchtimepeoplehaveontheirhandstomakecommentslikethese!


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Thepurposeofdoingthelogothewaywedidwastocreatealogothatwasabitimperfect.ThatiswhatMarthaStewartisallabout,thehand-madeeffect.

Tell me about some of your influences.Incollege,GeorgeSadekwasthedeanoftheartschoolandadesignteacheratthetime.Hewasahugeinfluenceonme,becausehedelightedinasenseoflunacyandpushingthingstotheirillogicalextreme,andthatwasrightupmyalley.

Do you think that you push things to their “illogical extreme”?

Yes.Logic—youknowwherelogicwillgetyou:

Logic will get you nowhere. But imagination has the opportunity to rescue you from the quicksand of logic.

Youcouldbeabankerwithlogic.Tobeadesigner,youhavetofindanewlanguage.You’vegottofindnewcolors.Youhavetosurprisepeople.You’vegottomakethingsthataremagnetictohumanswhodon’tlikedesign.

Does anything scare you in the area of graphic design or creativity?

No.

Are you insecure about anything in your practice?Yes,I’minsecureaboutwhetherI’mgoodenoughorhipenoughorup-to-dateenough,orwhethermyideasareold-fashioned—allthatsortofstuffatanygiventime.

What do you do in response to that?IgoforabikerideorswimandthenIgetbacktowork.There’snothingtodoaboutit.Asacreativeperson,youhavetoconstantlyquestionwhetheryou’repushinghardandfarenoughtobecreative.




Ikeepwondering—sinceIalreadysoldmysoultothedevil—whetherhe’sactuallycomingthroughforme.Iwonderifmyworkiscrazyenough.

How do you think you’ve sold your soul to the devil? ThedealwasthathecouldhavemysoulwhenIdiedifIcouldbecreativeformylifetime.

What did the devil look like?[Laughter.]Hewasn’tthereinperson.Itwasconceptual.

Who else influenced you at Cooper Union?AtCooper—afterGeorgeSadek—IstudiedwithMiltonGlaser,whichwasastonishing.HetaughteditorialdesignwithHenryWolf.Andthegreatestthingaboutthatclasswasthattheyneveragreedonasinglething.Itwassovalidatingforme.Iwasalwaystheintellectualtroublemakerinthedesignclasses,anditwasincrediblyvalidatingtolearnthatthereisnorightandwrong.EvenMiltonGlaserandHenryWolfcouldn’tagreeoncertainprinciples.Sotheirdisagreementwasincrediblyfreeingtome.Itwasaprofounddelight.ThisiswhyI’mnotascientist.Inscience,thereisarightandawrong.Indesignthereisn’t.It’sallquicksand.It’sjustadifferentquicksand.

When you’re commissioned for a project, how do you begin?

Iinterviewtheclients.I’vegottounderstandwhattheproblemisfromtheirpointofview.Andthenyouhavetonotbelievethem.

Why?Theyaretheclient,andtheyseeitthroughtheirownfilter.AndIalwaysimaginemyselfastheiraudience.Andluckily,inmuchoftheworkthatwe’vedone,Iusuallyam.I’msaying“I,”butit’sthewholestudio.I’mnotasoleoperator,andIwould


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neverwanttobe.WhenwedidSpymagazine,wewerethekidswhowouldwanttoreadamagazinelikethat.AndnowthatI’ma50-year-oldguyattheheadofacompany,Ibelievethatthereisanappro-priatenessaboutthetypeofworkthatwefeelsuitedtodo.Again,Ialsoask:Canwedowhatnobodyelsecan?Canweassociateatleastwiththeaudience?Arewetheaudience?

What happens after the interviews?Ithinkwe’rebetterathearingthanweareatdesigning.

Really? What do you mean by that?Thisiswherecreativitycomesfrom:beingabletodeconstructwhatpeoplesayandfindthewordsinitandblowitbackupagain.Wetakeparagraphsandslogansandpresentationsandchipawayatthem.Andthenwebringitallbacktolife.Ourdesignworkisreductive.We’remorelikestonecarvers.Abigblockofstonecomesin,andwestartchippingawayatituntilwefindthesculptureinside.Somedesignersareadditive.They’lladdandlayerthingson.Tome,thisisdecorativeratherthanreductive.Iwouldratheruncovertheessenceofwhatisalreadythere.Allweeverdowiththematerialourclientsgiveusistakethingsaway.Wetakethingsawayuntilwecanseewhatisinfrontofus.



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An artist, designer, author, curator, and a true intel-lect, Abbott Miller is a Renaissance man nonpareil. He is an eloquent advocate and interpreter of design, and he has spent much of his career investigating the complex, multifaceted relationship between graphic design and written language in our culture.

As editor and art director of the luminous arts magazine 2wice, Abbott creates with both words and pictures, demonstrating a singular fluency in the two disciplines. The magazine, like all of Abbott’s work, engages readers with an aesthetic framework that is heavily invested with meaning, thought, and the bliss evoked by the finely crafted image. He is comfortable designing for an unusually diverse range of material, from the Russian avant-garde to Money magazine to artist Matthew Barney’s edgy CremasterCycle.

With their flair for integrating content and form, Abbott and his wife, Ellen Lupton, pioneered the concept of “designer as author” through their efforts in the firm Design /Writing /Research. Sensing that the design field lacked the critical analysis of realms like architecture, they began to amass a body of criticism—some collected in the book DesignWritingResearch—that has helped us to better understand the practice and ideas of graphic design.

In our interview, Abbott regaled me with hilar-ious tales of childhood, discussed the inspiration he gets from his wife and his Pentagram partners, and recalled an early writing assignment for Steven Heller.

Abbott Miller



Do you have a recollection of your first creative memory?

Well,thisisscatological,butIthinkFreudwouldenjoyit.Ihavefoursisters,andIrememberamomentwhenIwasrunningdownahallinmyhousewithoutmydiaperon,anddroppingturdsalongtheway.Mysisterswereallscreaming.ButIdon’trememberanawarenessofvisualform-makingthatwasmomentous.Igotintomovie-makingwhenIwasintheeighthgrade.Iwasveryinterestedinexperimentalfilm.IspentalotoftimeinChicagogoingtotheArtInstitute.AndIspentmylunchhoursinschoolreadingaboutconceptualartinthelibrary.Thiswasmymilieu.Sportswerenot,andmathwasnot—artiswhatIclaimedasmyterritory.

And how did your parents feel about that?Theywerereallysupportive.IthinktheywerereallyhappythatIhadfoundanareathatIwasabsolutelydedicatedto.Ifounditamazingthattheyweresopermissive,allowingmetomovetoNewYork.WhenIgotmugged—

You got mugged when you first came to New York?Yes.IwaslikeahayseedwhenIfirstmovedtoNewYork!Ilookedyoung—Iwasyoung.MovingfromIndianatogotoCooperUnionwasaradicalthing.IwasveryluckythatIgotacceptedtoCooperUnion,becauseitwasfree,andIcouldn’taffordtogotomanyotherschools.

It seems that your education at Cooper Union had a profound impact on your work and the way that you think.

Itdid.ItamazesmewhenIlookbackoverthevariousaspectsofmycareerandmydailylife,IcantracesomuchbacktomycomingtoNewYorkandgoingtoCooperUnion.Itwasveryheadyandexcit-ingandaspectacularcollisionofpeopleandcontext


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andinfluences.Anditstillis.MyexperienceatCooperUnionhasinfluencedalotofmyintellectualheritage,thelanguagethatIuse,andthevaluesthatIhaveaboutdesign.

How confident are you in your own judgment? Firstandforemost,Ibelieveyoumusthaveastrongideaaboutyourwork.

For me, the interesting part of design is feeling confident about the content and the approach, and then struggling with form.

Afteralloftheconceptualization,thenyoucreateform,andformisveryunpredictable.Ithinkthatformismotivated,orrationalized,inalotofmyworkandthatthedesignisfairlyintellectual.Essentially,I’mconfidentinmyworkwhenIfeelthatitisdefendable,whenI’mhappywiththeratio-nale,andwhenIcanarticulateit.Again,thisverymuchcomesoutofmyexperienceatCooperUnion.

Do you ever allow yourself to go straight into form if you are not confident with the approach, or with the hope that the approach will work itself out as you struggle through the form?

Yes,butitcanbesloppy.It’seasytogetsidetrackedbyform.Inaway,youcansaythatthisistheplea-sureofvisualthinking.Ithinkthisiswhatpeopledowhentheysketchalot,whichIdon’tdo.Theythinkthroughformandhavetheformevolveintoaconceptualthought.Itendtobemoreabstract.Igothroughideasinmymind;Idon’twritethemdown.Thiscanbeabitruthless,becausebeforeanythingeverhitspaper,ithasbeenturnedoverinmymind.ButifIwereadesignerthatstartedwithformfirst,thebreadthofmyworkwouldlookmoresimilar.Ireallyvaluemyworklookingdifferentbecauseitisaboutdifferentthings.Soit’snotledbyform.

IthinkthatalotofPaulaScher’sworkcanbeidentifiedasPaula’s.Itisverymuchasignature.If

A B B o T T M i L L e r



Iseeworkinalineup,IcanusuallyidentifyPaula’s.But,again,theideathatdesignstartswithformisanintrinsicpartofthewaythatIwastaught.

However,thereisoftenatwindichotomythatexistsinreallygreatwork,whenthereexistsagreatideathat’salsobeautifullyexecuted.Ideally,though,youshouldn’tbeabletopullsomethingapartandsay,“Well,thatwasagoodidea,butit’sugly,”or,“That’sreallybeautiful,butthereisnoideahere.”

How and why did you decide to become a designer?Isawthatitwasawayintotheworldforme,andI’mnotsureexactlywhyorhow.Iamveryawareofenvironment.WhenIwasgrowingup,wewerealwaysmovingfromonehousetoanother,andmymotherwasalwaystransformingaspacephysicallyintosomethingelse.Shewasn’taninteriordesigner,butshewasveryambitious.

Irememberanimageofherwithasledge-hammerasshetookthesledgehammertothewallofthehousebecauseshewantedthewindowtobebigger.Shehadthisideathattherewasagoodviewoutside,andthewindowwastoosmall.Shedidn’thireacontractororawindowmaker,shesimplydecidedthatweweremissingagoodviewandtookthematterintoherownhands.

Ithinkthatconsciousremakingofourenvi-ronmentwasprofound.Shedidn’tthinkofherselfasadesigneroranartist—shebelievedthatifyoudidn’tlikeacolor,thenyourepaintthewall,andifyouneedabiggerwindow,thanyoujustmakeyourwindowbigger.Shewasatalentedseamstressandacreativeperson,andIthinkthishadalotofimpactonme.

How important would you say politics is to your work, or in your work?

Inmyearlierprojects,forexample,thestudyofthehistoryofthekitchenandbathroomthatEllen[Lupton]andIdidmanyyearsago,thepoliticsmay


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havebeenmorelegible.Theworkincludedimplicitcriticalthemesaboutconsumerismandabouttheroleofdesigninmanipulatingpeople.Therewasalsoanimplicitcritiqueinalotofmyearlierwritingaboutadvertisinganddesign.

ButIhaveneverdoneworkthatwas“straight-onprotest.”Ineverdidprotestgraphics.Myworkhasbeenmoreengagedpoliticallybythedirectionofandthenatureofthecritique.Lately,Ihaven’tbeendoingworkthatallowsforthat,orwhereit’sevenadimensionoftheproject.Ithinkwhenyouworkmorecommerciallyforclients,oronbehalfofclients,yourroleandyourmessagetakeabackseattotheirs.

Rightnow,I’mdoingalotofworkwiththeFordFoundation.Itdefinitelyhasapoliticalcon-text,butwhatI’mdoingforthemisnotpoliticalinnature.It’smoresupportiveofphilanthropy.IrelateittothefamousJean-LucGodardquote:“I’mnotinterestedinmakingpoliticalfilms,butinmakingfilmspolitically.”Ilovethatdistinction.Ifeellikeyoucanapproachworkintwoways.Youcanbepoliticallystraight-on,agitatingforacause,oryoucanengageintheprocessinapoliticalway,whichmeanschallengingthesystem.

Ifeelthatrepositioningadesignerassome-onewhoisanauthororcontributorinquitealotoftheworkthatIdo—inexhibitiondesignorinpublishing—isapoliticalgesture.Itisnoteverydaypolitics;it’smoreaboutexpandingthedefinitionofdesignandtheroleofthedesigner.

What do you think the role of design is in manipulating people?

Itcanbeverysignificant.Ithinkalotofthatdis-cussionhasgottenburiedbecauseofthegeneraleuphoriaarounddesign,andIdon’tknowifweareinamomentherewhereitalmostfeelsold-fash-ionedtocritiquetheroleofdesigninthemanipu-lationofpeople.It’salmostcomefullcirclewhere




peoplethinkthatit’sactuallynotmanipulation,butsimplygivingpeoplewhattheywant.Ifeellikeinsomewaysweareina“post-manipulation”designenvironment.

Why do you think we’re now experiencing a general euphoria about design?

Itseemsasifthereisaconnectionnowbetweenpersonalfulfillmentandconsumerchoice.Ifirstheardthisphrase“personalfulfillment”15to20yearsago,andwhenIheardit,Ifeltithadaringofsoullessness.Itwasalmostfacetious.Yetitseemslikethat’stheworldweliveinnow.It’sironicwhatwehavecomefullcircletobecome.Ithinkthatalotofthecontemporaryideasof“personalfulfillment”aresynonymouswithbuyingpower.

Remember when having an answering machine seemed hedonistic and kind of gross?

Exactly.Iknowthatmykidsdon’tknowwhatthat’slike.Theydon’thavethesamebenchmarks. Asyougetolder,yougetmorecomfortablewiththeseaccoutrementsoflifestyle.NowI’mlesscriticalaboutit.Whenyouhaveafamily,younatu-rallyacquiremoregoods.IrememberwhenEllenandIwerelivinginanapartmentintheEastVillage.Itwasreallysmall;butwehadadifferentrelation-shiptocomfort,totheaccumulationofgoods.Nowitseemsratherblurry,whichisaradicalcritiqueforme.Perhapsforourcultureaswell.

You are often referred to as both a designer and a writer, or a designer and an editor. How important is writing and editing to you in your career, and would you say that you’re comfortable both as designer and writer?

Yes.IthasalwaysbeenimportanttorefertobothbecauseIthinkthatIdesignlikeawriterandwritelikeadesigner.Thiscameaboutinamoreorganicwaythanitmightseem.WhenEllenandIgraduated


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fromCooperUnion,itwasapparentthattherewasincredibleliteratureinthefieldofarchitecture.Webothhadthebenefitofseeingitfirsthand.IhadtakenaclassatthearchitectureschoolatCooper,anditwasalegendaryprogramheadedbyJohnHejduk—hiscritiqueswerespectacular.

In what way were they spectacular?Peoplehadanextremeseriousnessofpurpose,anditwastheatrical.Thearchitecturalreviewswerelifeanddeath,andthelanguagewasfascinatingtohear.Itwastheheightofpretension,withtheutmostseriousness.Therewasanincrediblequal-itytoit.Itdidnotcomparetothelevelofcritiqueanddiscussionthatwasgoingonintheartsschool.Therewasasensethatthekidscomingthroughthearchitectureprogramweredealingwithissuesthatwereshapingcultureandhistoryandhaddonesoforthousandsofyears.Wehadtomeasureup,anditwasincrediblycompellingtowatch.

AndpartofwhatwenoticedingoingtoCooperUnionwasthattherewasgreatcriticalliteratureaboutarchitecturethatdidn’texistinthesamewayinthefieldofgraphicdesign.Therewasn’tjustalackoftheory;therewasalsoalackofhistoricalliterature.Yes,thereweresomebooksonthehistoryoftypeandthereweresomeannualsfromtheArtDirectorsClub,orAIGA,butitwasn’tavital,intellectualhistory.Itwasaveryopenfield.SowhenEllenandIgraduatedfromCooper,westartedwritingaboutdesign.SteveHellerstartedhis“ModernismandEclecticism”conference,andallofasudden,therewasagrowingsenseofdesigndiscoursethatwastremendouslyexciting.

ThefirstpieceIwrotewasforSteveHeller,becauseheaskedmeto.JusttheinvitationfromStevetowritesomethingforajournalturnedmeintoawriter.Andthentheexperiencetokeepwrit-ingandcontinuetopublishbecameveryimportanttomyprofessionalidentity.




Do you feel like you’re better at one more than the other?Oh,Iamdefinitelyabetterdesigner.IknowthisbecauseIdoitmore,andIdoitmorenaturally.Withwriting,Iprocrastinate.Ibackmyselfintowriting.Ellenistheexactopposite.Sheisatotallynaturalwriter.Shewakesupwriting.Forme,writingrequiresatremendousamountofeffort.

How did 2wice magazine come to be?IwasaskedtoredesignamagazinecalledDance Ink.Itwasaquietmagazinethatcameoutfourtimesayear.Itactuallyfeltlikemoreofanewsletter,anditdidnothaveastrongvisualidentity.Redesigningitwasanincredibleopportunity;Iwasn’tgivenalotofconstraints.Thepublisherwas(andstillis)veryinterestedinphotography,soitwasagreatopportunityformetostartworkingwithdanceandphotography,andtostartwritingaboutdance,andtocreateaveryspecialpublication.AfterwewerenominatedforaNationalMagazineAward,thepublisherfeltlikeshewantedabiggerframeworktoworkin.

Sheinvitedmetoproposeamagazinethatwouldbeaboutdance,art,anddesign,andtocreatesomethingnew—that’showIcameupwiththepremiseof2wice.Thefirstfewissuesseemedmorelikeareallybeautifulacademicjournal,andifyoulookbacktotheearlyissues,ithadmoreofanarttheory/criticismvibethatgraduallymovedintomoreofamagazinethatwaspremisedaroundtheideaofperformance.

Andthat’swhatit’sbecome,aplacetoper-form.Thismeansthateverydocumentthatwecreatehastobeaunique,interestingcollaborationofphotography,art,design,andeditorial.Istillcommissionthewriting;Ieditthetext,andIdesigntheentirething.Forme,it’salaboratoryofdesign,writing,andresearchcomingtogetherintoonecompellingobject.Iamveryproudofit.


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Do you ever feel insecure as a designer? Do you ever feel insecure about your work?

Sure.Ithinkthat’sanongoingstruggle.Iwanttostayrelevant,andnotfallintoarut.IthinkthatmyprevailingconcernisworryingifI’mdoingtoomuchofthesamething:AmItooconcernedwithconventionalnotionsofbeautyandgoodtaste?Butifit’snotthat,I’mthinkingaboutwhetherornotsomethingistooedgy.

What interests me in architecture and design is work that is awkward, and not beautiful, and a little bit idiosyncratic.

IhavesuchaloveoftypographythatIfeellikeit’scatnip.Ihavetobecarefulthatitdoesn’tseducemetothepointthatIenduprestingonthebeautyoflettering.

Where do you see yourself in five years?Well,I’dlovetobeabletoworkinanumberofdifferentareas.Lastyear,IdesignedwallpaperforKnoll,anditwasreallyinteresting,astheendprod-uctwasn’tabookoranexhibition.Itwassomethingthatwasdesignedandthentraveledintoanotherterritory,anditbecameamaterialthatotherdesign-ersmightuse.I’dlovetodomoreofthat.

IdefinitelywanttocontinuetheexhibitionworkthatI’mdoing,butIalsolovethemoremod-estscaleofproductdesign.AndIhavebeenslowlyratchetinguptheambitionofthephotographythatI’mart-directing,andI’dlovetodomuchmoreambitiousworkwithphotography,eitherasanartdirectororasaphotographer.IfItakethenextstep,itmightbetoactuallyfigureouthowtobethephotographer.Ispendalotoftimeart-directingphotography,andIoftenwonderwhattheworkwouldlooklikeifIphotographeditmyself.

Do you consider yourself to be an ambitious person?Idon’tthinkofmyselfinthatway,butwhenIthink




howmuchItakeon,IrealizeImustbe.TheimageIhaveofmyselfisthatI’mjustanice,unassuming,“awshucks”kindofperson.ButthenIwonderifIamindeedthatway,thenwhyamIhungeringforthenextthing?Ialsothinkthatdesignersrequirethisinsatiablequalitytobesuccessfulindesignandtokeepthingsinteresting.

So you are always looking for new things?

Yes.Iamrestless.Ithinkthatrestlessnessandambi-tiongohandinhand.Thingsaren’tquiteenough,ortheyareneverquiteright,orneverquitefinished,ortheycouldbebetter.

How do you know when something is finished?Whenthetimecomesthatyouhavejustgottoputitaway.Forme,that’susuallythebigmotivatingforce.Iwouldsaythatifthereweren’tdeadlinesforthingsthathadtogotopress,theywouldjustsitaroundandgetmulledoverandfinessedforages.It’spain-fulformetosay,“Okay,it’sreallygottogonow.”

What do you like best about being a designer?Designisawayintolearningabout,supporting,improving,andmagnifyingtheworld.Youcanassembleaworldviewbasedontheclientsthatyoutakeonandthesubjectsyouworkwith.Forme,designisaboutart,architecture,fashion,andperformance.

Designisanunusualfield.Ithasdepthsofengagement.AndinanyareaI’mworkingin,I’mstrivingtowardmakingsomethingmoreunder-standable,moreaccessible,andmorebeautiful.AsI’mengagingwithallofthesesubjects,I’mconstantlylearningaboutthemandbeinginflu-encedbythem,andthatisamazing.Trulyamazing.


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Massimo vignelli

Massimo Vignelli was one of the few designers I had not personally met prior to our interview, and as a result, I nervously anticipated our conversation. It didn’t help that I inadvertently stood up Massimo for our first scheduled interview. I mistakenly scribbled down our appointment in the wrong date on my calendar and missed the meeting entirely— not realizing until many hours later that I had kept Massimo waiting. Fortunately for me, he took it in stride, even graciously suggesting that it was better that we hadn’t met that day, since, while he was waiting for me to arrive, something had come up that he needed to resolve.

This alone highlights Massimo’s incredible spirit, his joie de vivre, his humor, and his generos-ity. Universally considered one of the great design artisans of our time, Massimo is also a quintessential gentleman. Not satisfied with anything less than elegant, he is erudite, charming, and cute, even. Yes, I said it: Massimo Vignelli is cute.

When he left a message alerting me of our missed rendezvous, he reassured me it was quite all right and requested that we reschedule. Despite my nerves, our subsequent meeting was delightful, and he shared with me thoughts on love, his wife and partner Leila Vignelli, his penchant for the color black, and the friendship he had with Alan Fletcher.



How important, if at all, is writing to your work?Well,Iwriteallthetime.Ofcourse,myEnglishislimitedandmywritingfollowsmyEnglish.Butsomehowthewritingisbetter;atleastthereislessofanaccent!Iamamaniacaboutbeingsemanti-callycorrect.IfindthatwhenIwrite,Iautomati-callylookfortheperfectwordmoreoftenthanIdowhenIspeak.IwanttohavetheexactwordthatsaysexactlywhatImeanaspreciselyaspossible.

Why did you choose to live in New York?It’salongstory.ThequickansweristhatwestartedthecompanywithsomefriendshereintheU.S.,andweopenedanofficeinNewYork.Thepersonwhowassupposedtoruntheofficegotsick.IwasinMilanatthetimeandIwascommutingbackandforth.Igottiredofflyingovertwiceamonth,andsowe[Vignelliandhiswife,Leila]decidedtocomeoverandruntheofficeforawhileandthengoback.We’restillhereafter40years.

[Laughter.]We’restillhere.NewYorkisafabulouscity.

It’slikeamagnet.Ican’tleaveanymore.ThereisnothingthatcancomparetoNewYork.Anditisnotevenbeautiful.Therearehundreds,thousandsofothercitiesthataremuchmorebeautiful.ButthereisonlyoneNewYork.

What do you think contributes to making it so special?It’stheenergy.It’sthewaypeoplewalk,it’sthewaypeopletalk.It’sthewaypeoplelive.Youknow:InNewYork,peopledressinblackallthetime.

Why do you think so many people wear black in New York?

Becauseoftheimage.

How would you describe it?Tobeginwith,blackhasclass.It’sthebestcolor.


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Thereisnoothercolorthatisbetterthanblack.Therearemanyothersthatareappropriateandhappy,butthosecolorsbelongonflowers.Blackisacolorthatisman-made.Itisreallyaprojectionofthebrain.Itisamindcolor.Itisintangible.Itispractical.Itworks24hoursaday.Inthemorn-ingorafternoon,youcandressintweed,butintheevening,youlooklikeaprofessorwhoescapedfromcollege.Everythingelsehasconnotationsthataredifferent,butblackisgoodforeverything.Myhouseiscoveredinblack.

Are all your clothes black? Do you wear all black?Yes.Always.Always.

So when did you make the decision that you wanted to be a designer?

WhenIwas14yearsold,extremelyearlyinmylife.

What happened?Iwenttoahouseofafriendofmine,andhismotherhadjustfinishedredecorating.Andallofsudden,Idiscoveredthatsomebodywasresponsiblefordoingthesekindsofthings.Nothinghappenedbyitself.Thatfascinatedme.Iwenthomeandstartedtodesign.IreadbooksandmagazinesaboutthesethingssoIbecamemoreeducated.AndIgotmoreandmoreinvolved,sothatbythetimeIwas18,IknewexactlywhatIwantedtodo.

Have you always been so driven?Yes.It’samazing,Ihavetremendouspassion.Tremendous.Curiosityandpassion.Mypassionisbigger,butmycuriosityisequallyasstrong.

You never had any aspirations to do anything else? It was always to be a designer?

Exactly.Ineverthoughtofdoinganythingelse.Notonceinmylife.EverybookthatIwasreading,

M A s s i M o v i G n e L L i



everypreferencewasdevotedtoarchitectureanddesign.Notechnologyorphilosophybooks.Veryfewnovels.Idon’thavealiteralmind.

How would you describe your mind?Itisvisual.

What do you think is the difference between a literary mind and a visual mind?

Avisualmindisinterestedinanythingthatyousee,andaliterarymindisinterestedinanythingyouthink.Aliterarymindisinterestedinpeople.Avisualmindisinterestedinthings,objects,nature.Thisdoesn’tmeanthatyoulookanddon’tthink.Ofcourse,youdothat,too.Butaliterarymindismorepronetothinkingthanlookingvisually.Thesetypeofpeopleliketoread.Theyliketoanalyzethingsfromapsychologicalpointofview.Writerslikethiswriteaboutisolation,andsomewriteaboutbeingtogether.Eachoneinvestigatesoneactionofthemind.Andthemind,beingascomplexasitis,isanendlesssourceofinvestigation.

Do you feel your work is immediately identifiable as your work? Do you feel you have a style?

Yesandno.Aftermanyyearsofexposure,insomewaysitis.Myworkhasacertaindiscipline,arigor,andaminimalistexpression.Iuseaverylimitedchoiceofcolors:primarilyblackandred.Tome,blackisblackandrediscolor.That’sit.

And what about your preference for Bodoni?Bodoniisoneofthemosteleganttypefaceseverdesigned.WhenItalkaboutelegance,Imeanintellectualelegance.Eleganceofthemind.

How would you define elegance of the mind?Iwoulddefineintellectualeleganceasamindthatiscontinuallyrefiningitselfwitheducationand


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knowledge.Intellectualeleganceistheoppositeofintellectualvulgarity.Weallknowvulgarityverywell.Eleganceistheopposite.

I have to ask: What would you consider to be vulgar?Vulgarityissomethingunderneathcultureandeducation.Anythingthatisnotrefined.Therearemanifestationsofprimitiveculturesorethnicculturesthatcouldbeextremelyrefinedandelegant,butdon’tbelongtoourkindofrefineryorculture.Cultureistheaccumulationofatleast10,000years.Youcanreallysaythatintellectualeleganceistheby-productofrefinement.Oneofthegreatestthingsaboutvulgarityisthatittendstocontinuouslydisappear.

MyfriendUmbertoEcowroteabookaboutbeauty,andnowhe’swritingabookaboutugliness.HetoldmethelasttimeIsawhimthatitwasmuchmoredifficulttowriteabookaboutuglinessthantowriteoneaboutbeauty.It’sthesamewithvulgarity,inasense.

What do you think design is really about?Numberone,designisaprofessionthattakescareofeverythingaroundus.Politicianstakecareofthenationandfixthings—atleasttheyaresupposedto.Architectstakecareofbuildings.Designerstakecareofeverythingaroundus.Everythingthatisaroundus—thistable,thischair,thislamp,thispen—hasbeendesigned.Allofthesethings,every-thinghasbeendesignedbysomebody.

Ithinkthatitismyresponsibilitytomaketheworkbetterthanitis.Thatismynumberoneprior-ity.Thesecondpriorityistodecreasetheamountofvulgaritybyreplacingthevulgaritywiththingsthataremorerefined.

Whenweworkwithclients,wemakeitquiteclearfromthebeginningthatwedon’tintendtocreatevulgarthings.Mostofthetime,wedon’teven




havetosaythis;whenaclientcomesin,theyknowwhatwearedoing,andtheywantustodothingsfortheminthisway.Sowedon’thavetoomuchtofightover!Butevenintheclientdiscussions,theycanseethatthisiswhatwewanttodo.

Sowhatisdesignallabout?Itistodecreasetheamountofvulgarityintheworld.Itistomaketheworldabetterplacetobe.Buteverythingisrelative.Thereisacertainamountoflatitudebetweenwhatisgood,whatiselegant,andwhatisrefinedthatcantakemany,manymanifestations.Itdoesn’thavetobeonestyle.We’renottalkingaboutstyle,we’retalkingaboutquality.Styleistangible,qualityisintangible.Iamtalkingaboutcreatingforeverythingthatsurroundsusalevelofquality.

You use the word elegance in contrast to vulgarity. Where does beauty fit in this?

Ontheelegantside.

Do you feel that they’re intertwined?Absolutely.Theyaresimultaneous.Thereisnobeautyinvulgarity.Therecanbefascinationinvulgarity,butthereisnobeauty.Avulgarwomanisneverbeautiful.

Do you think there are equal amounts of fascination in vulgarity and beauty?

I’mnotfascinatedbyvulgarity,butsomepeoplecertainlyare.Alotofpeopleare.Takethephenom-enonofLasVegas.It’sfascinating,butthefascina-tionisitsvulgarity.Nevertheless,it’sfascinating.IsworethatIwouldnevergotoLasVegas,andwhenIwent,Ineverwantedtoleave.

Why do you think people are fascinated by vulgarity?Becauseitiseasiertoabsorb.Eleganceisabouteducationandrefinement,anditisaby-productofacontinualsearchforthebestandforthesublime.


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Anditisacontinuousrefusalofindulginginany-thingthatisvulgar.It’sajob.

How do you know when you’ve created something that’s good?

Itsparkles.Ithasaringbyitself.

A ring by itself ?Whenyoustartworkingonsomething,youareaim-ingforaspecifictarget.Youhavethetargetinyourmindandabull’s-eye.AndItrytoaimatthatbull’s-eye.Ifyouhitit,you’reveryhappy.Andthat’swhenyouknowthatyou’vefinished,thatyou’vefoundthesolutiontotheproblem.

Do you ever have situations where you love something and your client doesn’t?

No.Becausewhateverwedoanswersaparticularsetofcircumstancesthatisknowntotheclient.Youcanseetheanswerrightthere.That’swhyit’scalled“thesolutionofaproblem”inourjargon.Theclientcomeswithaproblem,whichisthesamewaywegotoadoctorwithaproblem.Thedoctoranalyzesyouandgivesyouadiagnosisofthesituationandthenacuretomakeyoubetter.Wedothesamething.Wetrytoeliminateeverythingthatiswronginthesamewayadoctordoes.Hecanseethesymptomsofyourdisease.That’swhatwedo.Weseethesymptomsoftheclient’sdisease,andwecorrectit.Wekeepwhatisgoodandthrowawaywhatiswrong.

How do you feel about companies or clients that insist upon doing a lot of market research?

Iletthemgo.

You let them go? You don’t work with them at all?Ineverworkwithmiddlemanagement.Middlemanagersaredominatedbythefearoflosingtheirjobs,andthereforetheyhavenosenseofrisk.Ialwaysworkwiththetopperson—thepresident




ortheownerofacompany.That’sit.Onlytheper-sonatthetopcantakerisk.He’susedtoit.Thatishowhegottothepositionhe’sin.Heunderstandswhatyouaredoing,andhedoesn’thavetoreporttoanybody.Hemakeshisdecision,andthat’sthewayitgoes.Idon’tbelieveinmarketresearch.Idon’tbelieveinmarketingthewayit’sdoneinAmerica.TheAmericanwayofmarketingistoanswertothewantsofthecustomerinsteadofansweringtotheneedsofthecustomer.Thepurposeofmarketingshouldbetofindneeds—nottofindwants.

Peopledonotknowwhattheywant.Theybarelyknowwhattheyneed,buttheydefinitelydonotknowwhattheywant.They’reconditionedbythelimitedimaginationofwhatispossible.Butveryoften,whenfocusgroupsareconducted,market-erslistentotenpeoplewhosaytheydon’tlikesomething,andthentheydon’tdoit.Iffivepeopleoutoftensaytheydon’tlike,theydon’tdoit.The“researchers”neverprobebeyondwhythepeopledon’tlikewhattheydon’tlike.Thisjustbuildsaplatformofignorance.Mostofthetime,focusgroupsarebuiltonthepressureofignorance.

Doctorsdonotoperatethisway.Theydonotconductafocusgrouptoseeifyouhavecancerornot.

Have you ever been afraid of failing?No.

No? You aren’t afraid of anything?Vulgaritytakingover.

My life is a continual struggle, a continuous battle against vulgarity taking over.

Were you ever interested in being an artist?No.Iamanatural-borndesigner.


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How do you generally start a project?BylisteningasmuchasIcan.Iamconvincedthesolutionisalwaysintheproblem.Youcoulddoadesignthatyoulike,butitdoesn’tsolvetheprob-lem.Designmustsolveaproblem.Then,thedesignisexciting.ButIfinditextremelydifficult.ThisiswhyIrespectartists.Withoutaproblem,Idon’texist.Artistsarelucky;theycanworkbythem-selves.Theydon’tneedaproblem.

How much collaboration do you have with Leila on your projects?

Sometimesweworkonaspecificprojecttogether.Shehasaverygood,criticalmind.Aswesay,“Ipropose,shedisposes.”I’mtheonewhousuallycomesupwiththeinitialideas,andshe’stheonewhoevaluateswhichisthebestone.Shedeter-minesifit’stherightorthewrongapproach.Ifit’sthewrongapproach,we’lltalkaboutwhichoneistherightoneandwhy.Shealsodoesmanyprojectsonherown.

Do you ever argue?Allthetime.Onehundredpercentofthetime.

Would you say she’s your muse?No.

Do you have a muse?Thatdepends.Sometimes.ButLeilaisnotamuse,no.She’sacritic.

How would you define love?That’sagoodquestion.Let’sseeifIcandefineit.Ihaven’tbeenaskedthisinawhile.Iwouldsaythereareseverallayers.Loveisacakethatcomesinlayers.Thetoplayeristhemostappealingone.Thisistheoneyouseefirst.Thenyoucutintoitandyouseemanydifferentlayers.They’reallbeautiful,butsomearesweeterthanothers.




HowdoIdefinelove?Idefineitasaveryintensepassionontheonehand,andaverysteadylevelontheother.Thefirstlayer,theoneofpassion,isthemosttroublesome.God,it’sapain.

Why?Becausethemoreyoulove,themorejealousyouget.Youbecomejealousofeverything,theairaroundtheperson,thepeople,alook,eventhewaytheylookatsomething.Thenthereistheextremepleasureofwritingaboutlove,aswell.Thisisfascinatingtome.Thelayerofcorrespon-dence—andtheanxietytoreceiveanswers.Thatisgreat.

Finallyyoucometothephysicallayer.Theemotionofreceivingandconveyingpleasureissensational.It’sunbelievablehowyourentirebodybecomesamessenger.Yourfingers,lips,eyes,smells.Yourwholebodybecomesinvolved.

Thenthereisthelayerofsuffering.Distance,remoteness,nopresence,horror.Thesufferingofnotseeingwhoyouwanttosee,andnotbeingwithwhomyoulove.Thisisanotherpainfulaspectoflove.Wearetalkingaboutpain.Alltheselayersdefinelove.Ithinkthatiswhyit’ssogreatandsoextremelycomplex.

Have you been in love many times?Well,inlifethesethingshappen.

When was the last time you cried?Overthedeathofagoodfriend.Itwasaveryshorttimeago.

[Stops speaking.]Iamsorry,Ican’ttalkaboutit.[Starts crying.]

Massimo, I’m so sorry.That’sokay.DidyouknowAlanFletcher?Agreat,greatdesigner.Soyouhaveyouranswer.Icryabout


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thelossofsomeonewhocouldhavecontinuouslymadeagreatcontribution.

Do you think that there’s a common denominator to people who can make a great contribution? Do you think that there’s something that—

Unitesthem?Yes.WhatinGreekiscalledsympathy,thesynchronizationofpathos.Youfeelthisincrediblelevelofconnectionwiththesepeople.Toacertainextent,itisequallycomparabletolove.

When are you happiest?WhensomethingthatIworkoncomesoutwell.That’sone.WhenIworkwithsomebodywhoIlove.That’sanother.Itdoesn’thavetobeabiglove.Itcouldbeaminorone.

[Laughter.]It’slikepain.Ikeepgoingbacktothisanalogy

withpain.Therearepainsthataremajor,painsthatareminor.Andthere’snotjustonepainduringlife.Painscomeandgo.

When was the last time you got really angry?Igetangrywhensomethingisdonewrongwhenitcouldhavebeendoneright.Work-relatedthingsmakememad,ifsomethinghasbeendonewrong:wrongcolors,wrongtype,wrongpaper,wrongmaterial,whateveritis—ifit’swrong.

What’s your best quality?Idon’tevenknowifIhaveany.Nothing.WhichoneofthemdoIhave?

What about your worst? What is your worst one?Myworstone?Ego.

You have a big ego?Yes,Ihaveabigego.[Laughter.]




Have you ever been in analysis or therapy?No.No.Iamhappy.Idon’thavepsychologicaltraumastoovercome.Oneofthegreatadvantagesofbeingsoconcentratedonyourworkisthatitisallthereis.EverythingIdocomesintothisandenrichesme.Everything,eveneverybookIread,enrichesme.

Who do you feel is doing good work right now?AgooddesignerthatIrespectisMilton[Glaser].Ireallylikehiswayofthinking.He’sextremelytalented.Brilliantmind,terrificmind.Andofcourse,myMichael.MichaelBierut.MyfavoritedesignerrightnowisinGermany.HisnameisPierreMendell.Lookforhiswork.Heisagreatone.Hehassuchagreatabilitytosynthesize.

YouwereaskingwhatIadmire:I am

interested in “essence”—my major aim is really to get to the essence of the problem, and just throw away everything that’s not pertinent to it.

Attheendofaproject,myworkshouldbetheprojectionofthatexperience,theessenceofeffect.It’sahabitthatyougetinto.

How do you get to the essence?Theessenceiswhatisleftwhenthere’snothingelsethatyoucanthrowaway.

Is there anything that you haven’t done that you want to do?

OverseetheredesignoftheVatican.Suchajoke!Canyouimagine?Thepopeasaclient!That’dbelovely,turningtothepopeandsaying,“Well,thesymbolisokay.Wecanlivewiththat,butevery-thingelsehastogo.”


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Acknowledgments

HowtoThinkLikeaGreatGraphicDesigner took both a year and a lifetime to write. Many people, near and far, helped make this book possible, and it is my sincere honor to acknowledge their contribution. First and foremost, my eternal gratitude to Steven Heller for recommending me to Allworth Press, and sincere appreciation to Tad Crawford and Nicole Potter-Talling for actually taking his recommendation seriously. I am additionally grateful to Nicole for answering my overwhelming number of questions with kindness, speed, and patience; and to Allison Caplin for her grace under pressure and keen eye.

I am grateful to Simon Williams, my dear partner at Sterling Brands, for all of his support, encouragement, and trust. Sterling is a special place, and I must thank Elliott Calo, Gregory St. John, Clara Hendon, Jen Simon, and, especially, Lisa Grant for everything that they do, every day.

Huge gratitude to the kind and generous people who supported me on the journey toward this book in vast and innumerable ways: Jenny Fenig and Kim Rivielle, Brian Travis, the entire staff at Print magazine (past and present), the authors of Speak Up, Alissa Walker, Bryn Mooth, Ric Grefé and the National and New York Chapters of AIGA, the profes-sional association of design, Richard Wilde and the School of Visual Arts in New York, and my friends at Adobe: Courtney Spain, Joan Bodensteiner, and Ashwini Jamboktar.



My life would not be the same without the love and inspiration that I receive from the remarkable people I am lucky to call friends and family: Marian Bantjes, Pamela DeCesare, Cheryl & Craig Swanson, Armin Vit & Bryony Gomez-Palacio, Simon Lince & Cary Leibowitz, Lisa Francella & Louise Carravone, Sandra Kiersky, John Fulbrook III & Catharine Wragg, Barbara deWilde, Mark Kingsley, Lisa Rousseau, Margie Butler, Marcus & Susan Hewitt, the Feinman family: Lewis, Judith, Ilene, Michael, Cathy, Kenny, Ben, Maia, Jessica, Rebecca, and Erica, Maria Anthis, Alan & Beth Dye, Laura Victore, Brian Rea, Amy Dresner, Felix Sockwell, Amanda Bach, Andrea Dezsö, Bill Grant, William & Irma Lunder-man, Darralyn Reith, Christine Mau, Jan Winarsky & Kayla Green, Alexandra Alcantara, Ethan Trask, Josh Liberson, Peter Buchanan-Smith, Jay Gould, Christine & Joe Melchione, Steve Ginsberg, Pamela Parisi, Marianne Klimchuk, and Noreen Morioka & Sean Adams.

Special, heartfelt thanks to my four lifelong best friends, Susan Benjamin, Katharine Umsted, Susan Milligan, and Megan Taylor: Thank you for always being there and for always giving so unconditionally.

To my father, Martin Millman, my stepmom Georganna Millman, and to my brothers, Josh and Jake: You mean everything to me; my life would not be the same without your grace and love.

And to those who helped me create this book: to all of the extraordinary designers featured in these pages, and to Edwin Rivera, Jason Ramirez, Jürgen Miller, Joyce Rutter Kaye, Grant McCracken, Malcolm Gladwell, and Steven Heller (again), I will always be indebted to you.

And to my talented co-conspirators, Rodrigo Corral and Jeremy Lehrer, quite simply: I could not have done this without you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


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About the Author

Debbie Millman has worked in the design business for over two decades. She is a managing partner and president of the design division at Sterling Brands, one of the country’s leading brand consultancies. As host of the Internet talk show “Design Matters,” the popular forum for commentary and conversation on visual culture, Millman has established herself as one of design journalism’s leaders. She is on the national board of the AIGA and writes for the design blog Speak Up. An instructor at the School of Visual Arts and a regular contributor to Print magazine, she lives in New York City.


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index

Aabundance,33accomplishment,50acting,147–148advertising,63,72,74,90–91age,20,176AIGA(AmericaInstitute

ofGraphicArts),103,209AlfredA.Knopf,135,137AllgemeineGewerbeschule,

185ambition,176,206,211–212AmericanInstituteof

GraphicArts(AIGA),183anger,13,55–56,223apprenticeship,106approval,6,43,44architecture,146,208–209,

211Arenamagazine,75–76artadvertisingv.,74

conceptual,204elitistworldof,69experience,53graphicdesignv.,57–59,

68,80–81,83,90,177–178

workand,29ArtCommissionofNewYork,

43–44AtlanticRecords,41audience,2,100,177,185,194,

201.See alsoclientsauthenticity,3awards,163

BBacon,Paul,106Balkind,Aubrey,170Bass,Saul,62,83Batman Collected(Kidd),135beauty,27,218Below the Fold(Helfand),150Bernard,Pierre,107Biber,Jim,23Bierut,Michael,xi,5–17,26,

169,170,192,224black,214–215blogs,x,149–150Bodoni,216books,144brain,45–46,97,102,165,215BrandNew,198branding,x,62–63Brody,Neville,67–76business,175Byrne,David,191,193

Ccalendar,10–11CarinGoldbergDesign,19Cassandre,A.M.,187Catalog(Goldberg),19CBSRecords,22,41celebrity,69–71,145cellphones,154Cheese Monkeys, The

(Kidd),135Chermayeff&Geismar,183Chip Kidd: Book One: Work:

1986–2006(Kidd),135Christmas Carol, A

(Dickens),109

Chwast,Seymour,155–159clients,58–59,73,79,100,107,

129,185,200–201,207,217–218,219angerat,55chemistrywith,186presentingworkto,

166–167,176–177satisfactionof,179workingwith,47–48

collaboration,137Colorsmagazine,93comics,126commercialism,69,72communication,69,78–79,83,

88–89,92,177community,40compromise,22,95–96,107compulsion,13–14computers,handsv.,110,117,

137,148,181,185,198confidence,123connections,171consciousness,33,40consumerism,63–64,207content

ofgraphicdesign,24–25,205–206

sexual,143stylev.,153

contentment,creativityv.,142

conviction,6CooperUnionSchoolofArt,

156,194,200,204–205creativity,14–17,174,193,199,

201



contentmentv.,142destructionand,31freedomand,107miraclesand,30

criticalliterature,5,209criticism,122,207,209,221crosswordpuzzles,139culture,121–122,157–158,

165–166,217American,89,208generic,71matriarchal,169pop,78–80,81,91

curiosity,215

DDance Inkmagazine,210deBono,Edward,61deadlines,48–49,119,174,212death,54–55design.Seegraphicdesign

“DesignMatters,”ixDesignObserver,5,8,145,149Design Writing Research

(Miller),203designers.Seegraphic

designersDesignism,39devotion,38dharma,104,113Dickens,Charles,109disagreements,95Disney,Walt,156distraction,10Doyle,Stephen,191–201drama,38drawing,30,68,126,128,

139–140,148,163,166,185dreams,141,152–153Drenttel,William,152Duniho,Pat,110

eEco,Umberto,217education,83,128,136–137,

140,151,157,162–163,197–198,216

elders,86elegance,216–217,218environment,206essence,224

FFace, The,magazine,67,74–75FactoryRecords,82,88fame,57–58fashion,36,80,87,91fear,101,113,142,158,220

lovev.,34no,197–198makingtherightdecision

despite,23Fella,Ed,54Fetishmagazine,67

“Fighter,”122Fili,Louise,23FirstThingsFirstmanifesto,

153–154,188FirstThingsFirst2000,

143,188Fletcher,Alan,222–223flounder,214AD,175–176freedom,107,118Freud,Sigmund,204friendship,120From Lascaux to Brooklyn,

120fun,26Futura,89

GGarland,Ken,143,188Gebrausgraphikmagazine,

156Geissbuhler,Steff,2,183–189Gelman,Alexander,130Gilbert,Danny,56Glaser,Milton,3,22,29–40,

83,143,178,189,193,200,224

goals,168,219God,108Godard,Jean-Luc,207Goldberg,Carin,19–28Golden,William,146graphicdesign,2–3,63–64,

194,211,212,220.See alsorecordcovers;workaccomplishmentsof,

49–50artv.,57–59,68,80–81,83,

90,177–178assessing,121

business,23,87cinemav.,56communicationof,78–79,

84,89,177contentin,24–25,

205–206creativityand,14–15cultpop,78–80decorationv.,91definitionof,43,59,137,

147–148,156,178,207dynamic,130–131education,83effectsof,39,85evolutionof,23–24,49,

87–88goodv.bad,7,120asinterface,91loveof,181manipulationin,207–208paradigmsof,46–47radical,72sciencev.,200self-expressionv.,128–130style,25,49,153,164,218truthand,90–91youth-orientedbusiness

of,20graphicdesigners,20,39,92,

139celebritystatusof,70–71collaborationwith,137problemsfor,3,15,91,220responsibilityof,70,82,

131,144,159,217roleof,207self-taught,140

Graphic Language of Neville Brody, The(Brody),67

Gray,Cleve,151

Hhabits,7happiness,32,56,119Harmon,Marshall,171–172HarvardUniversity,56Hayman,Luke,12Heartfield,John,132Hejduk,John,209Helfand,Jessica,145–154Heller,Steve,209Helvetica,89,123,188


��i n D e x

HighStreet,88Hofmann,Armin,187–188humanity,3,195humor,197Hunter,Kent,15

iidentity,40ignorance,220illustration,42,157imagination,16,177,192,199,

220imitation,75insecurity,37,98,211

“InsidetheActorsStudio,”ixInstituteforArchitecture

andUrbanStudies,The,146

Internet,109interviews,job,169–171,178invention,46,60,76IRS,13

Jjealousy,221–222journal,140,150Joyce,James,24Julius Caesar,193

kKalman,Tibor,9,19,23,54,

73,93,109,191karma,57Kauffer,E.McKnight,24Kemp,David,171–172KentState,127Kidd,Chip,135–144kids,121King,Carole,22Kirby,Jack,133knowledge,128Koons,Jeff,81

Llanguage,74,164,194,195learning,32–33,194.See also

educationlifestyle,34–35,208Lionni,Leo,101Lipton,James,ixlists,112–113literature,critical,5,209

Little Blue and Little Yellow(Lionni),100–101

logic,199logos,167Lolita,143Looking Closer:

Critical Writings on Graphic Design,5

love,221–222fearv.,34ofgraphicdesign,181moneyv.,118

Lubalin,Herb,116Luckymagazine,93Lupton,Ellen,171,203,206,

209,210Lust for Life,64

MM&Co,93

“MadasHell,”103Madonna,19Maeda,John,115–123magazines,37,67,93,191,

201,210.See alsospecifictypes

The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat(Sacks),24

manifesto,26,143,153,154,188

manipulation,207–208Marcos,Ferdinand,162marketing,219–220Mau,Bruce,2

“Maximus,tohimself,”35McCoy,Kathy,170MeatLoaf,173media,radical,71mediocrity,71memory,31–32men,78,96–97Mendell,Pierre,224military,104Miller,Abbott,26,203–212Millman,Debbie,ixmind,visualv.literary,216.

See alsobrainmiracles,30MIT,115ModernEnglish,179

“ModernismandEclecticism,”209

money,32,36,44,91,108,109,118,188

Moody,Rick,125Morandi,Giorgio,38Murdoch,Iris,34musicbusiness,54,84,175,

177,180.See alsorecordcovers

My Name is Asher Lev,104

nnarcissism,34–35networking,170–171,176NewOrder,84–85NewYork,41,43–44,55,106,

169,204,214New York Post, The,141NewYorkSchool,The,89New York Times, The,107,141,

144,197New Yorker,57notebook,11–12.See also

journal;sketchbooks“NothingButFlowers,”9Number17,93,95

oOberman,Emily,93–102,105obsession,13,78,132Odgers,Jayme,131–132Oliver,Vaughan,173–181Olson,Charles,35O.O.P.S.,125opportunity,21

ppain,222,223Pamuk,Orhan,138

“ParadisebytheDashboardLight,”173

ParsonsSchoolofDesign,156partnership,94–96,97,186Partridge,Chris,136

“ThePassenger,”64–66passion,215,221past,31PennState,136,140Pentagram,12,41,83,86–88,

89–90people,9,89,122,167,168,174perception,121perfection,198



performativity,2personalfulfillment,208Philippines,169photography,211Pinocchio,156planning,43politics,206–207Pop,Iggy,64–66postmodernism,23

“Power,Corruption,&Lies,”85problems,3,15,91,220product,qualityv.brandingof,

63punkrock,81,175,179purpose,168PushPinStudios,155pyramidstructure,87

QQuarkXPress,139questions,asking,106

rRand,Paul,xi,62,87,107,118,

120,121,145reading,10,121recordcovers,79,82,92,177,

179Reed,Lou,56,58regret,98rejection,159relationships,97research,121,138,158,185,203

historical,149market,219

rightaction,fearv.,23righttothought,72risk,219rockstar,57–58

sSacks,Oliver,24Sadek,George,199,200Sagmeister,Stefan,9,53–66,

70,73Sahre,Paul,95,125–133Saturn,167Saville,Peter,77–92,140scarcity,33Scher,Paula,6,19,23,24,27,

41–51,205schtick,20–21

Schulz,Charles,126,142–143scrapbook,140security,34,37self-doubt,174,180self-expression,90,128–130shockvalue,71Siegler,Bonnie,93–102sketchbooks,150,185sketching,14,185,188Snow White,156socialchange,144,153–154,

218society,39,70–71,74solutions,2,197,219,220SpeakUp,xSpymagazine,201staff-to-studentratio,180Steinberg,Saul,107Stewart,Martha,198–199studio,smallv.big,61–62style,graphicdesign,25,49,

153,164,218success,44,130survival,workv.,32–34Sutnar,Ladislav,151Swatch,24sympathy,222–223

Ttalent,58TalkingHeads,9teaching,38–39,120technology

humanizationof,115keepingupwith,175

Tenazas,Lucille,161–172text,123.See alsotypographyTharp,Twyla,109

“ThingsI’veLearnedinMyLifeSoFar,”56–57

thinking,38,197Thompson,Bradbury,151time,119,145.See also

deadlines“TimeWaitsForNoFan,”145Towey,Gael,191,196truth,90–91,111

“12StepsontheGraphicDesigner’sRoadtoHell,”33,143,189

23Envelope,1732wice,210

Tyler,Steven,57typography,41,43,54,59,89,

120–121,164,187,188,211,216

uUlysses(Joyce),24universe,abundancev.

scarcityin,33Updike,John,138

vv23,173Valicenti,Rick,15Victore,James,103–113Vignelli,Massimo,6–7,15,83,

169,213–224Vit,Armin,x,198vulgarity,216–218,220

wWalker,Scott,176Walters,Barbara,xWarhol,Andy,101Winterhouse,145,148,150Wolf,Henry,200women,menv.,96–97wordassociation,105words,148work,32,88,91.See also

graphicdesignalone,117,137artand,29beautyin,27completionof,110,138,

149,157,179,185,196,212

creditfor,144ascyclic,123devotionto,38difficult,73free,47freev.paid,109withhandsv.computers,

110,117,137,148,181,185,198

happinessfrom,32,119intellectualv.intuitive,

165leavingbehind,133meaningof,92mediocre,59–60


��i n D e x

formoneyv.god,108formoneyv.love,118motivationof,36,112,

129–130open-ended,72–73presenting,166–167,

176–177process,14,20,45,46,61,

131,138,148,156–157,165–166,176–177,185,201

repetitionof,9–10,60self-evaluationof,35,

46–47,108,119,138–139,149,186

subconscious,8,46successful,130survivalv.,32–34talkingaboutv.doing,143timeless,180turningdown,195

whittling,111world,caringfor,39writing,139,186,208–210,214

yYale,147–148,151youth,20,78

zzone,the131–132


BooksfromAllworthPress

Looking Closer 5: Critical Writings on Graphic Design edited by Michael Bierut, William Drenttel, and Steven Heller (paperback,6 O × 9 Y,304pages,$21.95)

Looking Closer 3: Classic Writings on Graphic Design edited by Michael Bierut, Jessica Helfand, Steven Heller, and Rick Poynor (paperback,6 O × 9 Y,304pages,$18.95)

Design Literacy, Second Edition edited by Steven Heller(paperback,6 × 9,464pages,$24.95)

Advertising Design and Typography by Alex W. White(hardcover,8 ½ × 11 ¼,224pages,$50.00)

AIGA Professional Practices in Graphic Design: The American Institute of Graphic Arts, Second Edition edited by Tad Crawford(paperback,6 × 9,320pages,$29.95)

Designing Effective Communications: Creating Contexts for Clarity and Meaning edited by Jorge Frascara(paperback,6 × 9,304pages,$24.95)

The Elements of Graphic Design: Space Unity, Page Architecture, and Type by Alex W. White(paperback,6 V × 9 ¼,160pages,$24.95)

How to Grow as a Graphic Designer by Catharine Fishel(paperback,6 × 9,256pages,$19.95)

Real Business of Web Design by John Waters(paperback,6 × 9,256pages,$19.95)

Inside the Business of Graphic Design by Catharine Fishel(paperback,6 × 9,288pages,$19.95)

The Education of a Graphic Designer, Second Edition edited by Steven Heller(paperback,6 × 9,368pages,$24.95)

Citizen Designer: Perspectives on Design Responsibility edited by Steven Heller and Véronique Vienne(paperback,6 × 9,272pages,$19.95)

Business and Legal Forms for Graphic Designers, Revised Edition by Tad Crawford and Eva Doman Bruck (paperback,8 ½ × 11,240pages,includesCD-ROM,$24.95)

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Book - How to Think Like a Great Graphic Designer

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