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Biden: Tea Party TerroristsJAMES JOYNER MONDAY, AUGUST 1, 2011 132 COMMENTS

Vice President Biden has called Congressional Republicans and their Tea Party backers

terrorists.

Politico (Biden: Tea partiers like terrorists ):

Vice President Joe Biden joined House Democrats in lashing tea party

Republicans Monday, accusing them of having ac ted like terrorists in the

fight over raising the nations debt limit.

Biden was agreeing with a line of argument made by Rep. Mike Doyle (D-Pa.)

at a two-hour, closed-door Democratic Caucus meeting.

We have negotiated with terrorists, an angry Doyle said, according to

sources in the room. This small group of terrorists have made it impossible to

spend any money.

Biden, driven by his Democratic a llies misgivings about the debt-limit deal,

responded: They have acted like terrorists, according to several sources in

the room.

Bidens office declined to comment about what the vice president said inside

the closed-door session.

Earlier in the day, Biden told Senate Democrats that Republican leaders have

guns to their heads in trying to negotiate deals.

The vice presidents hot rhetoric about tea party Republicans underscored the

Tea Party Terrorists http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/biden-tea-party-terrorists

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tense moment on Capitol Hill as four party leaders in both chambers work to

round up the needed votes in an abbreviated time frame. The bill would raise

the debt limit by as much as $2.4 trillion through the end of next year and

reduce the deficit by an equal amount over the next decade.

Democrats had no shortage of colorful phrases in wake of the deal.

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) called it a Satan sandwich, and Rep. Luis

Gutierrez (D-Ill.) ca lled seemed to enjoy the heat analogy, saying: the Tea

Partiers and the GOP have made their slash and burn lunacy clear, and while Ido not love this compromise, my vote is a hose to stop the burning. The

arsonists must be stopped.

While Biden is substantially to my left on a host of issues, I generally like

his cantankerous, shoot-from-the-hip style. Id rather my leaders say what they mean

than constantly use mealy-mouthed, focus-grouped language.

Further, while I more-or-less like the results of the Republican hard line on the debt

ceiling, I share Bidens frustra tion with the illegitimacy of the tactic .

But this language is as outrageous as it is absurd. The Tea Party isnt murdering

innocent civilians; theyre using the tools available to them in our system of

government . Theyre not terrorists. Nor are they arsonists or kidnappers. Theyre

elected representatives of the people of their states and districts.

While Obama and Biden were elected in 2008 and have a right to wield the enormous

powers of the Executive Branch, Boehner and the Republicans won a landslide victory

in 2010 with a mandate to cut spending, reduce the deficit, and oppose the Obama

agenda. Similarly, the Senate Republicans closed the margin considerably in that cycle

and are using the powers afforded the minority to obstruct to great advantage.

We at OTB have bitterly opposed the tactic of holding up a vote on the debt ceiling,

which we agree has historically been a housekeeping matter , in order to get a second

bite at the budget apple. Its unprecedented and economical ly dangerous. But its not

criminal. And we have another election cycle in a few short months to let the peopledecide whether the Republicans tactics will be rewarded or punished.

UPDATE : Biden has denied that he used the word terrorists and the White House

has issued a condemnation of the use of that word.

Jake Tapper ( White House Calls Use of the Word Terrorists to Describe

Tea Partyers Inappropriate and the Product of An Emotional

Discussion ):

Given the presence of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., at Congress last night

and President Obamas January 12 speech to the nation about the

need for more civility in our public discourse the White House has

faced questions in the last day about Vice President Bidens possible behind-

closed-doors use of the word terrorists to describe Tea Partyers.

As we covered yesterday, meeting with anxious House Democrats

yesterday, the Vice President heard from Rep. Mike Doyle, D-Penn., who said

the Tea Party ac ted like terrorists in threatening to blow up the

economy. Doyle used the term several times. What happened next is in

dispute. Several sources told Politico that the Vice President responded by

saying, they have acted like terrorists. Other sources told ABC News that the

vice president said something along the lines of if they have acted l ike

terrorists, were taking the nuclear weapon away from them.

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51Like Tweet 20 2 submit

The Vice President told CBS News Scott Pelley, I did not use the terrorism

wordWhat happened was there were some people who said they felt like they

were being held hostage by terrorists. I never said that they were terrorists or

werent terrorists, I just let them vent. I said, Even if that were the case, whats

been happening when you now have taken and paid the debt and move that

down so we can now discuss, the nuclear weapons been taken out of anyones

hands.

One reporter today asked White House press secretary Jay Carney about

reports that the Veep had used the term, wondering if the president thinks

thats appropriate discourse? No, he doesnt, and neither does the vice

president, Carney said. And I think the vice president spoke to this and made

clear that he didnt say those words, and I think the congressman in question

has said that he regrets using them. Carney said the use of the word was a

product of an emotional discussion, very passionately held positions in this

debate, but that does not mean that its appropriate. And its not. The

vice president doesnt think so; the president doesnt think so. Any kind of

comments like that a re simply not conducive to the kind of political d iscourse

that we hope to have.

Whether Biden got caught up in the spirit of the venting and used the word terrorist or

not, the administrations considered position is correct. People say stupid things when

they are angry, especially when in like company. But the top leadership needs to push

back against dangerous rhetoric that marginalizes and delegitimizes the opposition

party.

FILED UNDER: JAMES JOYNER , JOE BIDEN , US POLITICS

Related Posts

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About James Joyner

James Joyner is the publisher of Outside the Beltway and the

managing editor of the Atlantic Council . He's a former Army

officer, Desert Storm vet, and college professor with a PhD in political

science from The University of Alabama. Follow James on Twitter .

Comments

Loviatar says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 17:50

But this language is as outrageous as it is absurd. The Tea

Party isnt murdering innocent civilians ; theyre using

the tools available to them in our system of government. Theyre not

terrorists. Nor are they arsonists or kidnappers. Theyre elected

representatives of the people of their states and districts.

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said by someone with a job

said by someone with health insurance

said by someone who didnt have their retirement nest egg devastated by the

financial industry

said by someone who doesnt live in a district with fracking or mountaintop removal

.

I could go on, but I just wanted you to know this is life and death to some of us

Outside The Beltway

Hot debate. What do you think? 25 19

Steven L. Taylor says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 17:51

This type of rhetoric is unhelpful. Youd think people would know

better.

Helpful or Unhelpful: 11 6

Jay Tea says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 17:56

Lets just sum it up:

Islamists who kill our troops and slaughter civilians arent terrorists.

Americans who hold differing political views and use the existing political system to

express those beliefs are terrorists.

The Kossification of the Democratic party is complete.

Go ahead, left. Declare war on the right. Declare them enemies of America.

But be prepared if some actually take your threats seriously.

J.



Whoops Bidens office is now denying he said it.

Id say its 50-50 whether or not he really did.

But 100% on Loviatar being gravely disappointed.

J.


jan says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:02

@Steven L. Taylor :

Thank you Steven.



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WR says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:09

@Jay Tea : Oh, goodie, Jay gets to pity himself some more. It is a

fine day for him.


ponce says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:12

But this language is as outrageous as it is absurd.

Haha, and when the Teatards call Obama a socialist dictaor who is out to destroy

America?


Tsar Nicholas says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:14

Not surprising. Biden never was the sharpest tool in the shed and that

was before he suffered brain damage via aneurysm. Now theres also

the senility factor in play. Hes like that crazy Democrat uncle in the attic. But with

actual polical power, which admittedly is downright scary.

In any event, since Biden is a Democrat and his targets were Republicans obviously

the mass media wont be in high dudgeon mode; accordingly this sordid episode

quickly will be forgotten out there in Zombieland, to the extent it even was known in

the first instance. Rinse-repeat.


DavidL says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:20

When it comes to the terrorists who actually kill people, the Obami

are allegeric to the word terror, and try to hide behind euphanisms

like manmade disaster. Yet while the Obami are loath to condemn the enemies of

our country, they quick to condemn their political opponents. Go figure. It is almost

as if the Obami are incapble of seeing beyond the next election.


Ian says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:24

If threatening to destroy the world economy if you dont get your

preferred policy outcome isnt terrorism, then the word has no

meaning. Keep in mind that lives around the globe would have been destroyed if the

US had defaulted.

Oh, and the side that screamed TREASON!! for eight years really doesnt have

grounds to take offence.

Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: 29 13


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PD Shaw says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 18:25

I wish the Democratic Party was more attune to what concerns

Americans and concerned about trends which are making

government too expensive in this country. Americans are concerned about the

deficits, and about how it will effect the next generation. Democratic Pollster

They do trust Democrats in theory to do a better job of this, but are skeptical in

practice. From link:

The deficit matters to people and has real meaning and consequences. A

government that spends and borrows without the kind of limits that would

govern an ordinary family is going to have big troubles. Voters Ive studied

say things like, if we keep spending like this, were going to be bankrupt

and there wont be anything for anybody, especially our children. The

final straw is the governments decision to continue spending and to put the

country deeper into debt and more dependent on China.



@Ian : If threatening to destroy the world economy if you dont get

your preferred policy outcome isnt terrorism, then the word has no

meaning.

Thats a fair description of what the Democrats have been doing from 2007-2011.

Obama also did yeoman work on wrecking hefty swaths of American industry. And I

dont use language like that against my fellow Americans until they actually

commit terrorism.

But hey, you wanna talk war dont start whining when people decide to take you at

your word.

J.



I think Ill just hush up a bit and see what the usual crowd of clowns

have to say

J.


Argon says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:02

@DavidL :

When it comes to the terrorists who actually kill people, the Obami are

allegeric to the word terror, and try to hide behind euphanisms like

manmade disaster.


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Allergy? Sure. Thats why Obama didnt escalate the war in Afghanistan, didnt

authorise drone strikes in Pakistan, didnt send the Navy Seals to kill Bin Laden and

isnt doing anything in Yemen. Meanwhile, hes shipped off CIA interrogators and

former Bush officials to the Hague for war crime prosecutions related to torture of

prisoners, vetoed the Patriot Act, and released all the Guantanamo Bay prisoners to

Somalia.

Sheesh I suppose these weak on national security and fiscally irresponsible

memes about the Democra ts are going never going to die because there will always

be a reservoir of reality-insensate brains to infest.


ponce says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:19

Obama also did yeoman work on wrecking hefty swaths of

American industry.

Indeed.

I remember back when Obama was working to destroy the American auto industry

while the Teatards fought so valiantly to save it.


Fiona says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:19

I dont think that this kind of hyperbole adds anything but rancor to

political debate, but to see the same wingers who routinely label

Obama as a socialist and denigra te the left as traitors get their panties in a wad

about it strikes me as more than just a tad disingenuous.


Hey Norm says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:20

I think its certainly hyperbole, and unfortunate, and frankly a bad

analogy.

Jokers like Joe Walsh, who claims to be a fiscal hawk but is nothing but a dead-beat

dad, are just suicide bombers. The terrorists are the Norquists, and Dick Armeys,

and Koch Brothers, who have filled their minions heads with nonsense and false

idols and mangled ideology and sent them to do their bidding.

I meanif you want to fill out the analogy properly that is.


ratufa s ays:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:24

If the story is true, Biden should have known better than to poke the

ant hill, even if it was done in a closed-door Democratic Caucus

meeting in reaction to what some PO-ed folks said.

Those people who think that what Biden said is literally true should get a grip. They


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should consider some of the people who make similar comparisons, such as Michele

Bachmann using the Holocaust to make a point about our current debt situation,

and try to be better than that.

As for Jay Tea, whose reaction is to slur Democrats as a group by making claims

about who they do and dont consider to be terrorists and then follow that by veiled

threats of violence, those remarks said more about you than they did about the

Democrats.


Pete says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:48

@ratufa : I think Joe Biden is fine entertainment and we should not

take the man too seriously. After all, he said the stimulus would be

creating 500,000 jobs per month. As for unfortunate statements, both sides have

produced some memorable whoppers.


An Interested Party says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:49

Poor Joe, always mangling his wordsof course the Tea Party crowd

arent terroriststheyre extortionists


Oh my, Im sure tough talk like that will have them quaking in their Birkenstocks

Now theres also the senility factor in play. Hes like that crazyuncle in the

attic. But with actual polical power, which admittedly is downright scary.

Yes, that does seem to be the trend with American vice-presidents in this century

@PD Shaw: Greenberg talks a lot about how so many people distrust

governmentthis is hardly surprising as we have one of the major political parties in

this country whose endless message seems to be all about trashing the government

(outside of the military, of course)also from your link

President Obama understood this essential lesson when he decided to

unveil his own plan for long-term deficit reduction. The fog of the

debt-limit debate has obscured that commitment, and his determination to

raise taxes on the most fortunate to reduce our indebtedness and fund his

priorities. Polls show that the public is with him, scornful of the Republican

demand for no tax increases.


Boyd says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:53

@James:

I share Bidens frustration with the illegitimacy of the tactic.

You may not like the tactic. You may not have employed it yourself, if you had been

in their position. You may wish they had not employed it. But illegitimate? Just


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because you dont like it? Really?

Im no fanatic, but the Republicans employed legislative tactics to achieve political

goals. If thats illegitimate, then everything done by Congress is illegitimate.

Youre indulging yourself in unwarranted hyperbole, James. And I should add, while

everyone at OTB [has] bitterly opposed the tac tic of holding up a vote on the debt

ceiling, the results have shown you all to have been wrong, at least insofar as

achieving its desired goals. Rewards entail risks, and you and Doug and Steven have

appeared overly risk-averse on this subject, IMHO.


Anonne says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:54

I dunno, threatening to do billions of dollars of damage, destroying

livelihoods worldwide qualifies to me as terrorism. Yes, it is

extortionist by nature, but they were and are still entirely willing to do it.

But of course, here are the calls for civility, as if the incivility of the undemocratic

political extortion was a lesser offense.


An Interested Party says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 19:59

And I should add, while everyone at OTB [has] bitterly

opposed the tactic of holding up a vote on the debt ceiling, the

results have shown you all to have been wrong, at least insofar as achieving

its desired goals.

Democrats would do well to remember that the next time they have the opportunity

to do something similar



@DavidL : Um, yeah. Except hes the president who caught and

killed Osama Bin Laden, instead of running away to invade Iraq.

You know, that thing inside your skull actually has a purpose. You might try using it

some day before opening your yap and making an idiot of yourself.


Boyd says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:04

@ An Interested Party : Sucks to be beaten at the game your own

party invented, eh?



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Pete says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:05

@ Anonne : Billions is chump change anymore. And somebody

please tell me that our financial condition was in good shape prior to

this circus. There would NOT have been a default, so please everybody be a little

more serious. This was political theater at its best and nothing else. Our economy

stinks, it has too much debt, too many people are unemployed, good jobs may take

years to reappear, the world economy is suffering from the overindulgence on credit

by complacent consumers and accomodative politicians.



@ WR : Good Lord, Obama just happened to be sitting in the Oval

Office when the event occurred. Obama has no background in

military operations or strategy. Using your logic, Obama is responsible for the

deficit, which the libs love to blame on Bush.



@PD Shaw : Im really tired ot his life. Or, to give you the benefit of

the doubt, because I do believe you are honorable, this misperception

which is spread by Republican liars. Americans by vast numbers dont give a damn

about the deficit. They care about jobs. They care about growth. They care about not

seeing their lives flushed down the toilet so that billionaires dont have to pay a

penny of extra tax on their private jets.

Check the polls. Whats important 65% jobs. 20% deficit.

Deficit freaks are just like any other kind of fetishist they have a hard time

believing that the rest of the world isnt turned on by the same thing they are. But

those are the facts.

So please, do a little research before you innocently repeat the lies that the

Republicans are busy selling to their followers.


ponce says:

Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:12

Good Lord, Obama just happened to be sitting in the Oval

Office when the event occurred.

Ahahaha,

The fringe right will never forgive Obama for getting bin Laden.

Never.



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Steven L. Taylor says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:12

@Boyd : For what it is worth, I still would have preferred a simple

clean upping of the debt limit earlier this year and I still would love to

see the debt ceiling itself abolished.

I have not thoroughly examined the plan, but figure that it ultimately will be a blip

in regards to our real fiscal problems, so really do not think all of this was worth it.

Further, I am highly dubious of a plan created under these conditions.

I certainly dont think the final result was worth threatening the economy over.



@Jay Tea : I believe you were the one screaming that Obama should

have let the US auto industry die. Youve got no way of saying that

Democrats want to destroy American industry when you were shouting that one of

the biggest should have been destroyed. Oh, except that you lie shamelessly.



@Boyd : Let me guess: You were one of the righties screaming about

having health care crammed down you throat. Pardon me if Im

wrong.

Which Im not.



@Pete : Odd, Bush had troops in Tora Bora ready to take Osama out,

and he declined. So dont give me this any president would have done

it, because we have proof that s not true. Bush dismantled the unit hunting for Bin

Laden, Obama put it back together. Again, use that thing between your ears before

you start typing.


Boyd says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:21

@ WR : If you were right (which youre not), you can easily link to

where I wrote that health care was crammed down my throat.

But since you cant, you just want to put words in my mouth that I never said, just so

you could make the point you wanted to make.

That would make you a coward and a liar.

Yeah, not very courteous, but I have no patience for bald-faced liars. You should go


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into politics. You have lots of brethren there.



@ponce : @ WR : Uh, I dont believe the quote you attribute to me is

mine. Furthermore, the CIA never gave up looking for Bin Laden. So

when they found him, Obama conveniently pursued the matter. To place a laurel

wreath on Obamas head may please his devotees, but the truth is that he benefited

from a moment in history not the least bit of his making. Just like he will be forever

scarred by the meteoric rise in debt; regardless of how much is his fault.



@Pete : Sorry, your quote was that Obama just happened to be

sitting in the Oval Office.

And while its great that you have access to the classified information about the

CIAs activity, the fact is that Bush dismantled the operation to catch Bin Laden and

Obama started it up again. If youre going to claim that he benefited from a

moment in history not the least of his making, then youd better start saying the

same thing about Reagan and the fall of Communism.

Oh, wait, Saint Ronnie said tear down this wall, and the USSR magically

crumbled. Because Republicans have superpowers, while Democrats just happen to

hang around waiting for history.



@Boyd : You forgot to say I dont suffer fools lightly. Then you

would have completed the entire Im so tough behind my keyboard

sonata.


A voice from another precinct says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 20:46

@Jay Tea :

I think Ill just hush up a bit and see what the usual crowd of clowns have to say

J.

Good plan, better to keep your mouth shut and be suspected of being a clown than to

open it and remove all doubt. You should practice this more!


An Interested Party says:


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Sucks to be beaten at the game your own party invented, eh?

Oh? I dont seem to recall the Democrats ever holding the world economy hostage to

get their policy prescriptions enactedperhaps you could remind me when that

happened

There would NOT have been a default

This from the same person who in the past compared gay people to Nazis by pushing some trash written by a pair of deranged homophobesPete, your

credibility is just sterling

Good Lord, Obama just happened to be sitting in the Oval Office when the

event occurred.

Oh yes, of course, he was completely unattached and unconnected from the

eventas I already wrote about your credibilitysterling



@ WR : I believe you were the one screaming that Obama should

have let the US auto industry die.

Typically doltish WR. Ford did just fine without the bailout. What you championed

and what happened was the subverting of the established laws regarding

bankruptcy. Instead, Obama had the government take over GM and Chrysler, screw

over the bondholders, and reward Obamas backers in the unions.

Oh, and they did it all with our money.

Notice how GM is pretty much right back where it was right before the bailout, and

Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. Oh, and were collectively out many billions of dollars.

Would things have been better if GM and Chrysler had simply gone into bankruptcy?

Maybe, maybe not. But it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper for the taxpayers.

Well, maybe not the UAW. They got a couple more years out of those contracts that

were a major fac tor in bringing down GM and Chrysler. A bankruptcy court would

have had the option of setting them aside. Maybe GM and Chrysler could have

restructured, once those contracts were altered.

Well never know, because Obama figured he was smarter than the existing systems.

And those bond holders? Theyre rich, they can afford to get screwed. They were

idiots for trusting the laws that protected their r ights anyway.

J.



Well never know, because Obama figured he was smarter than

the existing systems.


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Jay Tea,

How does any of this mindless spew support your contention that Obama also did

yeoman work on wrecking hefty swaths of American industry?



@Jay Tea : Yes, if only wed made the autoworkers suffer, then the

country would be whole aga in. But you forgot to whine about the poor

bondholders, who were made to suffer a loss on their investment in order to keep

several millions of families from losing their homes. Aside from tha t, you pretty

much got the vile right-wing line down pat. Keep practicing, Jay, and maybe theyll

start shovelling money at you. I mean, this is the point of sellling yourself to the

scum of the earth, isnt it?


Timothy Watson says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 21:26

@Pete :

Q Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama

bin Laden. Why is that? Also, can you tell the American people if you have

any more information, if you know if he is dead or alive? Final part deep

in your heart, dont you truly believe that until you find out if he is dead or

alive, you wont really eliminate the threat of

THE PRESIDENT: Deep in my heart I know the man is on the run,

if hes alive at all. Who knows if hes hiding in some cave or not;

we havent heard from him in a long time. And the idea of

focusing on one person is really indicates to me people dont

understand the scope of the mission.

Terror is bigger than one person. And hes just hes a person whos

now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been

destroyed. Hes the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and

met his match. He is as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact

that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and

he, himself, tries to hide if, in fact, hes hiding at all.

So I dont know where he is. You know, I just dont spend that much

time on him, Kelly, to be hones t with you. Im more worried about

making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear;

that the coalition is strong; tha t when we find enemy bunched up like we

did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to

go in and do the job, which they did.

And there will be other battles in Afghanistan. Theres going to be other

struggles like Shahikot, and Im just as confident about the outcome of

those future battles as I was about Shahikot, where our soldiers are

performing brilliantly. Were tough, were strong, theyre well-equipped.

We have a good strategy. We are showing the world we know how to fight a

guerrilla war with conventional means.


41 1/31/2012 3


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Q But dont you believe that the threa t that bin Laden posed wont truly be

eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we havent heard much from

him. And I wouldnt necessarily say hes at the center of any

command structure. And, again, I dont know where he is. I Ill

repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I

know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken

over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically

running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became

we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train

his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we excuse me for a minute and if

we find a training camp, well take care of it. Either we will or our friends

will. Thats one of the things part of the new phase thats becoming

apparent to the American people is that were working c losely with other

governments to deny sanctuary, or training, or a place to hide, or a place to

raise money.

And weve got more work to do. See, thats the thing the American people

have got to understand, that weve only been at this six months. This isgoing to be a long struggle. I keep saying that; I dont know whether you all

believe me or not. But time will show you that its going to take a long time

to achieve this objective. And I can assure you, I am not going to blink. And

Im not going to get tired. Because I know what is at stake. And history has

called us to ac tion, and I am going to seize this moment for the good of the

world, for peace in the world and for freedom.



@ponce : Well, there was the auto industry. The medical devices

industry is going to get royally pounded over ObamaCare. He

declared war on Vegas tourism and corporate jets. He coerced banks that didnt

need bailout money to take it to provide cover for those that did, then used that as

leverage to coerce them into going along with his demands.

But ponce, sorry for interrupting. I was trying to let you folks continue to talk about

how your fellow Americans who disagree with you about politics and work within the

system are just as bad as the guys who carried out 9/11, who slaughter innocents by

the thousands, and strap bombs to themselves. Cuz thats really, really educational.

J.



@ WR : Oops. I should have read the last paragraph. Of course, its

the bondholders who matter. The ones who get a premium on their

investment because of the risk. They must always be made whole, no matter what.

The people whove spent their living making a middle class living making cars must


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be ruined so that magic bondholders can afford their tax-free private jets.

Because rich people are wonderful, and may finally notice the little flea kissing their

butts and give him some of their money. And those auto workkers? Well, they joined

a union, so homelessness is too good for them.

Oh, Jay, deep down are you even enough of a human being to loathe yourself?

Somehow I doubt it.



@Jay Tea :

Ford did just fine without the bailout. What you championed and what

happened was the subverting of the established laws regarding

bankruptcy. Instead, Obama had the government take over GM and

Chrysler, screw over the bondholders, and reward Obamas backers in the

unions.

Thats exactly what happened totally screwed over the bond holders. But, of

course this hasnt done a thing to discourage people from trusting the government.

Bond holders, business people, are simply lemmings programmed to accept the

dictates of government, never complaining, sucking it up, ready to invest more that

will be subject to whatever the government says will resolve a financial problem.

Ford, as Jay pointed out, skipped the whole bailout gimmick and was able to bring

themselves back, both financially and with a whopping amount of respect from the

public at large some of whom bought a Ford vehicle simply because of the merits

of the company in refusing Obama dollars.

Ponce, Interested Party, WR have any of you owned or operated a business, met a

payroll, worked with employees who depended on your skills to run a successful

business so they could get paid?


jan says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 21:40

@ WR :

I know if you have a 401K and the President decides we need some of that money,

you wont mind handing it over. After all, Im sure you are richer than many out

there, writing for Hollywood. And, if you have a stock portfolio, and circumstances

become even tighter around the nation, Im sure you will be more than willing todivest yourself of your wealth to help out another human being mind you, simply

if the President calls for it to happen.


Pete says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 21:43

@Timothy Watson : Tim, Words, just words. Obama has said

whatever suits the politician in him. Apparently you havent lived long


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enough to have learned to take political statements with blocks of salt. Please

remain an engaged citizen, though, as the country needs engaged citizens.

Eventually you will accept politics for what it is: Hollywood for ugly people; as

someone else said.


george says:

Monday, August 1, 2011 at 21:50

Hyperbole, but no different than Tea Partiers who say Obama is a

communist out to destroy the American way of life. Both sides play

the exaggerate beyond all recognition of reality game; the only curious thing is

that people still pretend that its only the other side that does it.

In any case, I hope its pretend outrage on both sides. Id hate to think that some

people were really stupid enough to believe that the Tea Party is terrorist, or that

Obama is a (Muslim) socialist out to destroy America at least not while they were

sober.


WR says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 21:55

@ jan : Um, yeah, Jan. Unlike your little Tea friends, I accept the idea

that paying taxes is a fundamental part of citizenship, and I am proud

that my contribution is able to help those who have not been as lucky or as blessed

as I have. I see it as my duty to contribute to the future of this great nation, even if it

causes me a little irritation or discomfort when I write the check. Because when I do

feel those negative feelings, I look around me and see what my taxes and your

taxes, and moron Jay Teas taxes (although I suspect he doesnt pay income taxes)

and everybody elses taxes have built.

What does cause me great pain is to see so many so-called patriots who are eager to

destroy our heritage because it will save them a couple of bucks on April 15. For

them I have nothing but contempt. They are not patriots, they are not even adults.

They are screaming children who have only learned the word mine and have never

progressed.


WR says:Monday, August 1, 2011 at 21:59

@ jan : Oh, no, the bondholders. The beautiful, precious, wonderful

bondholders, the only people who matter to Jan and Jay. Yes, the

bondholders, who bought bonds that came with a premium because they were

assuming risk. They should never actually have to encounter that risk. Just because

they were receiving higher interest payments because there was a risk of default,

that doesnt mean they can ever be subject to a loss. They must be made whole. And

the middle class auto workers who have spent decades toiling at this job? They

should die in the streets. After all, they joined a union.



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anjin-san says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 22:26


Hmm. Sounds like Jay is working on another one of his revenge fantasies.



Good Lord, Obama just happened to be sitting in the Oval

Office when the event occurred.

Its a small man who cant give credit where credit is due. Keep shopping for your

pants in the boys department, you were them well.


anjin-san says:


Obama also did yeoman work on wrecking hefty swaths of

American industry.

Really? Which ones? Please point to even a single industry that has been wrecked.

And remember, words tend to have precise meanings. Wrecked does not mean

some bondholders lost money or I am specula ting this industry could go south at

some point.



Oh, no, the bondholders. The beautiful, precious, wonderful

bondholders, the only people who matter to Jan and Jay.

Wouldnt the bondholders have lost out even if Obama hadnt saved the auto

companies?



@ WR :

But, WR what about your stock portfolio and 401K s? Would you contribute those to

the cause too. Because, for many business people, their business is equivalent to

those kind of investments. Instead of passively investing people risk their money for

something that may not materia lize into a profit.

Now in the case of the bondholders, there were some contractual obligations that the

government apparently upended, favoring the unions over the private investors.

Now, if you invested in something, and lost everything because of an arbitrary

decision by the government, would you be inclined to reinvest? Be honest, now!


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And, as far as paying taxes.anybody making any money at all pays a graduated

income tax. That doesnt make you Saint WR. It means that you are following the

tax code. My husband & I pay a ridiculous sum in taxes. But, then again, we have no

big-shot lawyers to do all the crea tive tax shelters, and shuttling money to the

Cayman Islands like the Kennedy family has done. Liberal democrats and their tax

schemes are the best, which is why they are oftentimes referred to as limousine

liberals. In Hollywood you have a lot of those types!


Drew says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 22:51

Sometimes these things are surrogate IQ tests.

Joe Biden? Really? Joe Biden?

Some of you voted for his ticket.and of course the top half has been just

sparkling..



But, WR what about your stock portfolio and 401Ks? Would you

contribute those to the cause too. Because, for many business people,

their business is equivalent to those kind of investments. Instead of passively

investing people risk their money for something that may not materialize into a

profit.

I dont know where you came from all the sudden, jan, but you are banging nails on

the head here. Beware the trolls..



Wouldnt the bondholders have lost out even if Obama hadnt saved

the auto companies?

No. But thank you for playing, and back to your post pumping gas.



@anjin-san :

Well Obama, via the unions, are giving Boeing grief, because they voluntarily moved

from the State of Washington to a right to work state, SC.

In 2009, Boeing made a rational business decision regarding the

placement of one of its new production facilities. It decided to open a new

plant in South Carolina, a right-to-work state. The NLRB claims that

Boeing decided to locate the new facility in South Carolina as retaliation for


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past union strikes in Boeings Washington State locations. This ignores the

fact that in the meantime Boeing has added over 2,000 employees to its

Washington State locations.

Boeing built a state-of-the-arts new plant, and now the government doesnt want it

to open up. It has become a penalty call by the unions.

NLRB to Boeing: Shut Up!

Who knows how many companies have not acted on their ideas, opened doors for

business because of the grim state of the economy that has become Obamas

hallmark as President?



@Drew :

Drew, your posts are intelligent and inspirational. Common sense really turns me

on!



@ WR :

Oh and BTW, WR, for all your talk about being an humanitarian, my husband and I

contribute privately to individuals needing help. No big pa ts on the back, just seeing

a need and doing something about it, with no tax write-off, eithr. We paid for

chemotherapy for an employee at a appliance company, schooling for a young child

recently..we do it because we want to, and we are grateful to be in the position to

make someone elses life easier. We contribute to public education, book faires,

teacher supplies, gym equippment .its a much better way to spend money than to

give it to a goverment who spends our hard-earned money so foolishly and

recklessly.



Jan Jay said wrecked. If you want to take up his cause, such as it

is, lets see a wrecked industry. Put up or shut up.

And if you want to claim Obama is acting through the unions, how about some

proof? Rush says so will not do



Drew, your posts a re intelligent and inspirational. Common sense

really turns me on!


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(Blushing) This of course now guarantees an absolute jihad aga inst me by, as you

are probably now getting a feel for, certain commenters. Ill put on my armour and

prepare for the onslaught: Drew, you ignorant, righty ass!

If I might return the complement, its easy to discern through vocabulary,

phraseology and argumentation who is worth reading and listening to. At the r isk of

giving unsolicited advice, Id recommend to you what I consider a very worthy

sister site Dave Schulerss Glittering Eye. Like the Mark Wahlberg line from

the opening of The Departed we need ya pal.

http://theglitteringeye.com/



@ jan : My God, do Tea Partiers ever do anything besides whine about

how tough their life is. Oh my Gawd, when Im trying to sleep in the

morning, theres this shrill ringing that fills the room and I have to get out of bed

even though Im tired. Unlike all those liberals who wake up whenever they want to,

I am forced to rise, even though I stayed up late watching Home Shopping Channel.This is all the fault of the poor black folks. If we can only stop them from getting

unemployment, I wont have to hear that alarm in the morning, I know because

Rush told me.

For Gods sake, get a gr ip. Lives are tough all over, and you only make yourself look

like a complete loser by whining about what is nothing more than everyday living.

America too tough for you? Go find someplace cushier to live. But please stop trying

to destroy our nation simply because you feel sorry for yourself.



@ jan : Especially if those ideas are screwing the workers by paying

minimum wage in a race to the bottom state. Why dont you just move

to Somalia if thats what you want?



No. But thank you for playing, and back to your post pumpinggas.

A little more info, Drewhow would those bondholders have gotten their money

back from the bankrupt auto companies that had negative net worth?

A government bailout?


Ralph says:Monday, Augu st 1, 2011 at 23:19


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Ive never seen weaker democrats and a weak president as we have

today. Unfortunately, the republicans are much worse. That means we have no

goverment. This country has one last chance to save it self. And it has nothing to do

with democrats and republicans.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! If you are an American, you have to

Read Common Sense 3.1



@Drew :

Thanks for the link. Ill look into it.

While I do learn something from the back and forth of opposing comments, its like

taking a turnout, on a very fast road, to hear someone who is lucid in their thoughts,

and is able to connect the dots, without having to resort to namecalling, as the only

available retort that comes to mind.

People who talk about how wonderful it is to give taxes remind me of an artist friend

of mine. While I love him dearly, he really makes me laugh when he gets into his tax

rant, saying how he would be willing to pay more taxes in order to make goverment

work better. I want to say to him, But, you do your business in cash, unreportable

cash. And, you hide what cash you have in the ground! So saying he pays more

taxes, when he pays no taxes, holds no water, and is an invalid contribution to the

conversation.

And, thats what I think goes on here too a lot of posturing for the cameras, while

one wonders what these people really do contribute as a responsible frac tion of their

income.



@Drew :

Like the Mark Wahlberg line from the opening of The Departed we

need ya pal.

After all this time, I just saw that movie on DVD last week. It was ruthless, but

riveting. And, I distinctly remember that Wahlberg line.



People who talk about how wonderful it is to give taxes

Hmmm. Who said it was wonderful to pay taxes? Or are you just making crap up?

In a lucid, connect the dots kind of way, of course



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Jim Treacher says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 00:15

And we have another election cycle in a few short months to let

the people decide whether the Republicans tactics will be

rewarded or punished.

And to decide how much they enjoy being called terrorists.


Jim Treacher says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 00:17

@george : You can be a communist without killing anybody. Other

than that, you make an amazingly cogent point.


Drew says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 00:19

A little more info, Drewhow would those bondholders have gotten

their money back from the bankrupt auto companies that had

negative net worth?

Thank you for demonstrating your profound ignorance, ponce. In a workout the

spoils are split for the futures. Debtholders get crammed down to the equity the

futures. You DO understand the debtors were aced out and the futures the equity

given to Obamas pals, the unions.

Wait, no you dont. You dont have a clue how corporate finance or workouts or

bankruptcy law works. You are a clown. I forgot.


Jim Treacher says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 00:20

@Ian : If screeching TERRORISTS! when you dont get your way

isnt pants-pissing, the phrase has no meaning.


jan says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 00:21

@anjin-san :

Glib to the end, huh anjin! Good night.


anjin-san says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 00:28

Yet while the Obami are loa th to condemn the enemies of our

country


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Funny, I remember Obama firmly declaring his intention to get bin laden and

destroy al-queda while big bad John McCain was wringing his hands and declaring

we can never risk offending Pakistan.

Lo and behold, Obama did exactly what he said he was going to do. And what was it

that you can run, but you cant hide GW Bush said about bin laden? I truly am

not that concerned about him. The President was not concerned about a man who

murdered 3000 Americans in the heart of New York City. He dismantled the CIA

unit that was dedicated to tracking him down.

So, David, natura lly you need your little fantasy. You sure as hell cant deal with the

truth.


ponce says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 00:47

You dont have a clue how corporate finance or workouts or

bankruptcy law works. You are a clown. I forgot.

Well, Drew,

Seeing as youre an expert in corporate finance

The GM bondholders recently got a payout from Motors Liquidation Company.

http://www.wilmingtontrust.com/gmbondholders/notices.html

Please use your expertise to evaluate how much they received and compare that to

how much they would have gotten if the Republicans had gotten their wish and GM

simply folded.

Well all wait here for your post.


Xenos says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 01:13

@Drew : Wouldnt the bondholders have lost out even if Obama

hadnt saved the auto companies?

No. But thank you for playing, and back to your post pumping gas.

The bondholders were unsecured creditors. The company was going through

Chapter 11 reorganization. What is more critical for the success of the reorganized

company, the bondholders or the trained workforce?

This was a very simple, predictable, and proper bankruptcy. Some speculators bought bonds because they hoped their place in the front of the line of unsecured

creditors would be worth something if GM went to Chapter 7. Obama came up with

a political solution that helped keep GM in Chapter 11, saving a couple million jobs

and a big chunk of industry. Bondholders lost, the rest of the country won. Tough for

them.


Scott O. says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 01:48


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@ jan : @Drew : Get a room!


Jay Tea says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 03:40

@Xenos : Obama came up with a political solution that helped keep

GM in Chapter 11, saving a couple million jobs and a big chunk of industry. Bondholders lost, the rest of the country won. Tough for them.

Except, as noted, after burning through billions of taxpayer dollars, GM is pretty

much right back where it was just before the bailout. More like bondholders lost,

taxpayers lost, but Obamas backers in the unions won a couple more years on the

labor contracts that had played a hefty role in the companys ruination.

jan, thanks for the reminder about Boeing. The message here: once youre a unions

bitch, youre forever their bitch.

And perhaps saying Obama has did yeoman work on wrecking hefty swaths of

American industry was the slightest touch hypberbolic. (I dunno how the hell

hyperbole came into this discussion, of all places.) But hes certainly wreaked plenty of havoc, while telling us how much worse things would have been if he didnt.

Thank you, sir, may I have another?

J.


Rick DeMent says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 07:59

@Jay Tea :

Well Jay you play the exact same game, it would have been so much better if GM

had been allowed to go under.

First of all you dont know squat about what would have happened, and frankly

neither does anyone else. But those of you who stick to this Obama wrecked the

economy meme seem to forget a few things.

First the economy was wrecked when he got it. Wrecked in a way that was

unprecedented. Fall all the fluffy tingly feeling the Bush Tax cuts caused it really did

nothing of note for the economy except pile on a huge pile of debt the likes that had

never been seen before despite the fact that they were touted as a fix tha t get the

economy roaring.

As for the bailout your fealty to the bondholders is touching. What you completely

forget is that GM and Chrysler feed a wake of suppliers and business that amount to

four times what they are worth, all of which would have gone down with them

turning a bad economy into something much worse (again whos to say who bad it

would have gotten but its safe to say most of us would have ended up hurting more).

And in less you have to be reminded, the money had already been voted on and

allocated by Bush. You could make a good argument that the auto bailout alone

saved more jobs then anyone will ever know because not only would the companies

themselves gone under, but so would the supply chain (which would have put Ford

under as well), as well as put all of the businesses that depend on the support of


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those workers like restaurants, stores, services; The list could go on and on.

Finally, while i understand you wont find any of this persuasive because you simply

lack the imagination to comprehend such things, you still have yet to make the case

that things are wrecked. The Bush recovery never got back to where it was despite

shoveling unprecedented amounts of tax spending to the so called job creators.

The only reason it limped along as far as it did was because of the housing bubble

and that home ATM effect it created. Bottom line is that the Bush economy was

never that great, the tax spending did not work at all other then a small Keynesian

effect. If you think that that we can create jobs while firing workers and not investing

in infrastructure, you simply dont have the math skills to analyze the situation we

are in.


HelloWorld! says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 08:32

If you ask me they are all terrorists, using fear to keep everyone in

line. Obama is doing exactly what I hated from the Bush admin (well,

one thing). Everything is an emergency and must be done without a single hearing

or debate about content. The patriot act, tax breaks, tarp, and now this. With each of

those issues disaster looms unless we act immediately and without debate


Ben Wolf says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 08:32

@James Joyner,

What outcome from the current debt standoff is it you like? The spending cuts are

actually caps on future growth which future Congresses are free to ignore. We

effectively have an agreement to agree to an agreement on the budget sometime in

the future, which means within a few months well be right back where we started

with this.

If automatic cuts actually happen then government has become

extraconstitutional, and it certainly wont be a republic.

Exactly how is this good?


mattb says:

Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 08:56

@HelloWorld! :

Obama is doing exactly what I hated from the Bush admin (well,one thing). Everything is an emergency and must be done

without a single hearing or debate about content.

Can you please explain how the Obama Administration turned a procedura l vote

into a emergency?

For better or worse, this was a confrontation manufactured by the Republican party

and turned into a crisis by a very vocal minority of the party. This process began

months ago, the crisis here isnt Obamas fault.


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Oh, and Bidens comment though somewhat understandable as something said

behind closed doors in a moment of frustration was a sinine.


mattb says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 09:02

Seeing the general Conservative outrage at this comment, Im

reminded of Jans spirited defense of Allen West a little while

ago :

I think why so many liberals dislike Col West is because he is blunt, very

blunt. Most politicians couch their words, posture their opinions so they

will be acceptable to the very far left side of the aisle, creating a palatable

distance of ideas from their opponents. Not so with Mr. West.

As pointed out at that moment, what you appreciate in your side you tend to hate

when the other side does it.

Again Bidens comment was asinine. So was Wests.


hey norm says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 09:41

This just amazes me


You are just making shit up out of whole cloth for the sake of posting inane

opinions!!!!

Jan and JTea and Drew and some others need to research and understand:

1) Epistemic Closure2) Dunning-Kruger Effect

We keep seeing the same false information, mis-interpreted data, bogus analogies,

and ridiculous personal adecdotes.

Please enough.


HelloWorld! says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 09:46

@mattb : This is fair. Your right, tea party leaders are somewhat

responsible but the president did not have to implement the doom inthe markets strategy. He could hve just said Give me an up or down vote, or give

me some spending cuts but in the end if the debt limit is not raised then there will be

more uncertainty in the markets and congress needs to be prepaired for that.

Fact is, no debt increase would cause the markets to fall but they would recover in a

few weeks or months. Macroeconomics is not as complicated as they want you to

think.



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@HelloWorld! :

Fact is, no debt increase would cause the markets to fall but they would recover in a few weeks or months. Macroeconomics is notas complicated as they want you to think.

But this is fundamentally inaccurate. If the debt had not increased, we would have

had to close a large chunck of the government in order to maintain debt payments,social security, and necessary military expenditures.

This is the thing that people dont seem to get. Payments to states to support federal

mandates would have ceased.

Business COULD NOT HAVE continued as usual with a just a ma rket blip. Thats

why this was considered to be a procedural vote congress had already approved

the spending in the budget. To blieve otherwise is to fundamentally bury your head

in the sand.

It sad that people just dont seem to want to acknowledge that part of the equation.


Eric Florack says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:05

If the debt had not increased, we would have had to close a

large chunck of the government in order to maintain debt

payments, social security, and necessary military expenditures.

Utter BS. (Or is that udder BS?)

Governments dont default, they simply print more money.

Think Im wrong? Heres a challenge; Where in history has a government that had

its own currency, ever defaul ted? Ever?

Look, gang, this whole thing was set up to do two things:

Raise taxes something theyd not be able to slip by absent a crisis situation

Demonize the increasingly popular Tea Party who is giving the Democrats,

including those who call themselves moderate Republicans, fits.



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anjin-san says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:08

And perhaps saying Obama has did yeoman work on wrecking

hefty swaths of American industry was the slightest touch

hypberbolic

Actually, it is complete and utter crap, to the extent that even a blowhard like you is

trying to walk it back.

Except, as noted, after burning through billions of taxpayer dollars, GM is

pretty much right back where it was just before the bailout

Really? GM is on the brink of collapse? Please document this.


Hey Norm says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:11

Eric,

Please see my post @ 9:41.

Thx




Now that you have had a good nights sleep, perhaps you could show where anyone

here said paying taxes is wonderful. Otherwise I will just have to be blunt and call

you a liar


mattb says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 10:22


Did you seriously just suggest that as serious option?!

This logic makes absolutely no sense especially if a country does not want to

experience incredible inflation. Further printing more money would have been

tantamount to a default and would definitely have wrecked the nations credit rating

leading only to more debt (due to interest) alongside hyper-inflation.

It makes neither political or economic sense.


Eric Florack says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 10:27

I remember back when Obama was working to destroy the

American auto industry while the Teatards fought so valiantly

to save it.


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You do? You mean you consider government money and control to be a HELP?

Yeah, Ill bet those supporting government handouts for the Indians felt the same

way. We see how that worked. And what has government handouts done for the

black family in America?

Same thing.


sam says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 10:32

@Eric Florack :

Think Im wrong? Heres a challenge; Where in history has a government

that had its own currency, ever defaulted? Ever?

Mexico in the 80s. See, Latin American debt crisis .


Eric Florack says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 10:37

Did you seriously just suggest that a s serious option?!

I dont advise it, but its what is done. I ask again, does anyone have record of any

government with its own currency defaulting?

This logic makes absolutely no sense especially if a country does not

want to experience incredible inflation

And were not? Look, the ony thing thats saving our ass right now is that the rest of

the planets in the crapper, too.

Really? GM is on the brink of collapse? Please document this.

Amazing that you dont know about this stuff. Oh, wait. Lemme guess CNN, and

CBS, right?

Heres another:

The Detroit-based automaker, 33 percent owned by the U.S. after its 2009

bankruptcy, has 280,000 Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups on dealers

lots around the country. If sales continue at Junes rate, that would be

enough to last until November.

After GMs truck inventory swelled to 122 days worth of average sa les, the

company said 100 to 110 will be normal going forward for such a large and

complex line of vehicles, compared with 60 to 70 days for most models.

Peter Nesvold, a Jefferies & Co. analyst, isnt convinced.Ford Motor Co.

(F), which makes similar trucks, is running at 79 days, and Nesvold says

GM averaged 78 days on hand at year end from 2002 to 2010.

Its unbelievable that after this huge taxpayer bailout and the bankruptcy

that were right back to where we were, Nesvold, who has a hold rating

on the stock, said in a telephone interview. Theres no credibility. In a

research note he asked: Is GM falling into old, bad habits?

I wont bother with the link, for fear of tripping the automatics, but you get the


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picture. Its as Doug Ross points up the other day

You mean that abrogating bankruptcy law, screwing over secured creditors

and rewarding Democrats union supporters with billions in equity, tax

breaks and subsidies didnt really fix GM?

The answer would have been no in any event, but when the government also uses the

money as a lever to make demands on what kind of cars and trucks GM can

produce, of course the whole thing is headed for failure.



You mean you consider government money and control to be a

HELP?

You do make your living driving a truck, no? I am pretty sure roads are paid for with

government money and the government(s)controls them. You are a pretty good

example of the conservative default position I am against government except

when it is doing something that benefits me.


Jay Tea says:Tuesday, Au gust 2, 2011 at 10:39

@anjin-san : GMs on-hand inventory is 122 days, pretty much as it

was in 2008. (Ford has about half that overstock.) That means they

got an assload of vehicles that they cant sell.

In June 2008, when they got the bailout, they had 21.1% market share. In July

2008, when they got out of bankruptcy, they had 16.9%. Today they have 15.6%.

For June 2008, GM sold a bit over 262K vehicles. For June 2011, just over 215K.

Oh, and lets not forget how the GM and Chrysler dealerships closed down tended to

feature a lot more Republican donors than Democratic ones. Funny how that

worked out.

You know, the pro-bailout arguments sound a hell of a lot like the stimulus

arguments. Yeah, it wasnt anywhere near as great as we promised, but it would

have been far worse if we hadnt done it! Honest! Jobs created or saved, anyone?

J.


anjin-san says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:42

ahhh, bit? Once again, please show that GM is on the brink of

collapse. Not that all is not rosey, on the brink. Words mean things.


sam says:


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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:48

@Jay Tea :

You know, the pro-bailout arguments sound a hell of a lot like the stimulus

arguments. Yeah, it wasnt anywhere near as great as we promised, but it

would have been far worse if we hadnt done it! Honest! Jobs created or

saved, anyone?

Im thinking now that maybe we misunderstand to roll of fiscal stimulus in a

downturn. Let me use a naval analogy that might appeal to Jay.

Suppose you have a ship that is holed below the waterline by a torpedo. The work

crews descend below decks to plug the hole and shore up the bulkheads. The work is

not primarily intended to return to the ship to its state pre-torpoedo warfighting

state, but rather to enable it to stay afloat until it can make port for more extensive,

foundational repairs. Maybe that is the proper way to think about fiscal stimulus:

Not to return the economical ship to its orig inal state, but to stave off its sinking

until really corrective repairs can be accomplished.


Eric Florack says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:48

@sam :

Thats actually a reasonable response, but Ill point out that theres condition there

which are not duplicated here. The value of the base currency (At the time USD)

going up in dramatic fashion, for example.

You do make your living driving a truck, no? I am pretty sure roads are

paid for with government money and the government(s)controls them. You

are a pretty good example of the conservative default position I am

against government except when it is doing something that benefits me.

You keep saying that, but you keep forgetting I suggest intentionally that the

roads are written into the Constitution.

Once again, please show that GM is on the brink of collapse. Not that all is

not rosey, on the brink. Words mean things.

You tell me do you see anything stopping that trend, Anjin? Absent that, even you

can see where its headed.


sam says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:50

@Eric Florack :

I ask again, does anyone have record of any government with its own

currency defaulting?

See my Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:32



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ratufa s ays:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 10:56

@Eric Florack :

Utter BS. (Or is that udder BS?)


Do you understand that to spend is to tax, and that inflation due to rapidly

increasing the money supply is effectively a tax on everyone? Is that really what

youre advocating in response to mattbs observation that large chunks of the

government would have to close down if the debt limit wasnt raised?

When mattb said:

If the debt had not increased, we would have had to close a large chunck of

the government in order to maintain debt payments, social security, and

necessary military expenditures.

He was correct. Note that he was not talking about the Federal defaulting on its

bonds he was talking about having to cut other expenditures in response to the

government being unable to borrow more money.


Ben Wolf says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 11:03

@ratufa : Printing a $1 bill is no more inflationary than issuing debt.

Both increase the money supply and both are backed by the U.S.

government. Erick is correct on this one. There was absolutely no reason for the

debt ceiling to have even been an issue.


Jay Tea says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 11:03

@sam : Heres the difference, sam: you can see the results of the DC

teams immediately, by simply checking draft, freeboard, and list.

Obamas claims, though utterly unverifiable. Theyre bilgewater.

(Sorry, you used a naval metaphor on a naval warfare geek. Ive actually studied

what happens when ships get hit by torpedoes mainly the old torpedoes with

contact-type fuzes, because the modern torpedoes with their magnetic fuzes tend to

not leave a repairable ship.)

Well, thats not fair. I remember his projections on unemployment with and withoutthe stimulus. The official numbers are worse than either case. And the unofficial

ones are even worse. So we have that datum for their reliability and it aint good.

J.



@Jay Tea :


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Well, thats not fair. I remember his projections on unemployment with

and without the stimulus. The official numbers are worse than either case.

And the unofficial ones are even worse. So we have that datum for their

reliability and it aint good.

My point was maybe we all misunderstand the role of fiscal stimulus in a down

economy. Supporters and detractors both.


WR says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 11:24

@Jay Tea : Look, Jay Teas repeating another right wing lie, this one

magically combined with right wing self pity. Its the Republican car

dealers got shut down while Dems didnt, which was debunked in about five

seconds. But theres no lie so obvious that the JTs of the world wont repeat it.



@Jay

Oh, and I was thinking Mark 14 with the bad Mark 6 (for the Mark 14) contact

exploder for the holing, not Long Lance



@sam : The purpose is kind of irrelevant, when measured againstresults. Not only were the projections wildly off, but now Obamas

even admitting that his term shovel-ready was a joke.

A lot of us predicted that the stimulus program would be a fiasco. We said that its

main effect would be to Hoover up a ton of money out of the pr ivate sector and be

doled out by politicians looking to maximize advantage to them and their allies. And

when it failed, the two defenses would be it would have been worse if we hadnt

done it or we didnt spend enough money.

Weve also seen how this administration treats actual job creators. I presume youre

familiar with the situation with Boeing and South Carolina? Or the hit that Vegas

tourism and private aircraft took after Obama decided they were the new

boogeymen?

If were going to toss around the term economic terrorism, Id say the Obama

administrations screwing over of Boeing forcing them to abandon a $2-b illion

new plant and cancel plans to hire 2,000 new workers in South Carolina as a favor

to Boeings unions would certainly qual ify.

Especially since stopping Boeing from going to South Carolina does nothing to keep

them from simply sending those jobs to China.

J.



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@sam : If youre into that sort of thing, sam, I recently finished

writing a story that featured the USS Arkansas in late 1942, in an

utterly implausible (just short of impossible) battle that featured some rather

interesting (to me, at least) torpedo effects. If youre curious, I can give you a link

J.


HelloWorld! says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 11:36

@mattb : Im afraid your mixing up apples and oranges. The federal

budget for the government doesnt come into play until September,

when we are due for another fight. Yes, treasury estimated that if the debt limit

wasnt raised we would not be able to pay some bills in which case the govt would

probably sell some bonds to pay bills and investors would have lost money. Even

still, there are other options the govt could use to try to pay those debts, but they would have been extremely unpopular politcally. For example, the president by

executive order could order the sale of oil from the petrol reserves. Unorthodox, but

doable. He wouldnt even have to go that far though. He could have laid out his

terms and when congress failed to meet them he could have ra ised it himself.

Obama had the upper hand. He blew it. No c losing tax loopholes or anything to

support this fairness he is always talking about. Will be interesting to see what he

caves on in the upcoming September battle.



@Jay Tea :

@sam: The purpose is kind of irrelevant, when measured against results.

Not if the actual purpose, as opposed to what folks say is the purpose, is to keep the

economy from really, really going under. That is, if the real function of fiscal

stimulus is to keep the ship of the economy afloat and underway, if limping.


hey norm says:Tuesday, August 2, 2011 at 11:38

utterly implausible (just short of impossible)

Describes your opinionsand thus by extensionyour posts here.




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Whats the link? Were off topic, but I just finished Hornfischers

Neptunes Inferno. Good book. Recommend it in conjunction with Franks

Guadalcanal .



@Ben Wolf and @ Eric Florack : After a bit of reading, I see the

poi

Biden Tea Party ‘Terrorists’2011

Documents

Transcript of Biden Tea Party ‘Terrorists’2011