Podcast #91 from http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2010/04/episode-

91-cramping-everything-you-need-to-know/

Introduction: In this podcast episode: cramping, insulin, exercising your

calves, apple cider vinegar for fat loss, the SPARK energy

drink, analyzing supplement quality, bike tire choices, carb

loading, staying fit through injuries and more on mini fasts.

Ben: Hey podcast listeners, this is Ben Greenfield. Spring is

rolling around which means summer is almost here. And if

you have not yet checked out the Web site this week, you’ll

notice that I’m launching the 2010 Summer Body Challenge.

Not only am I going to be giving away 300 bucks to the

person who shows me in photos the best progress between

May and August but I’m going to be shooting you a free Gym

Stick, you’ll get an hour of fitness and nutrition consulting

with me, a free yearlong membership and access to all the

passed archives of my Body Transformation Club, a lot of

cool stuff and all you have to do is join the Body

Transformation Club. So it’s basically a $7 entry fee and then

from there on out, you send your photo, you send your video,

front photos, side photo and then the video is just a short 30

to 60 second clip and from there on out you will be getting

postcards from me every week between now and August and

at the beginning of August, you’ll send in your follow-up

photos, follow-up video. I will judge and then I’ll put 300

bucks in an envelope, send you a free Gym Stick, hook you

up with that hour of fitness and nutrition consulting and give

you the free membership. And that’s all you have to do. So

check out the 2010 Summer Body Challenge. Just click on

the link in the Shownotes to this episode, podcast episode

number 91. Wow, we’re almost to 100. And in today’s

episode, the special guest is going to be Dr. Pascal. I think I

called him Dr. Pascal. I don’t know. I hope I called him by

his correct name. But he is going to be talking about

cramping. He’s coached a lot of world-class athletes. I get a

lot of questions about cramping, now you’re going to find out

exactly what the doc has to say. Lots of good questions today

as well, so we’re going to jump right in to this week’s content

from www.bengreenfieldfitness.com.

The first question for this week comes from listener BJ.

BJ asks: I’ve found through both blood tests and saliva tests that my

fasting insulin level and insulin level after a meal are both so

low as to be undetectable. My endocrinologist gave me a

glucose meter which I’ve used to check my blood glucose

levels at various times before and after meals. I’ve never

gotten a rating that was abnormal for the time it was taken in

relation to a meal. So, it seems I’m producing enough insulin

even though my insulin levels are low. My doctor suggests I

may have insulin hypersensitivity and I just don’t need much

insulin to keep my blood sugar regulated. I know that insulin

is important in building muscle. Can having low insulin such

as I do hinder my athletic performance? Is it common for

generally fit people to have low insulin levels and should I be

concerned about this or just consider it normal for me?

Ben answers: Great question, and let me first of all say that insulin gets a

really bad rep, and I’ve probably even been guilty of this

show of making you think that all insulin does is make you

fat. But insulin is technically an anabolic hormone. And

when I use the word anabolic, that means that it promotes

things like cellular growth, repair, recovery, tissue – basically

tissue formation such as of muscle fibers – because it stuffs

nutrients like amino acids and carbohydrates that you eat

into muscle cells. Now insulin is actually released into your

bloodstream by an organ called your pancreas. That’s one of

the main functions of your pancreas. Now insulin functions

as basically a storage hormone which means that it acts to

transport carbohydrates such as glucose or sugars as well as

amino acids from the proteins that you eat and the fats from

the food that you eat into the cells of your body. If you

happen to be completely overstuffed or have lots of

carbohydrates or lots of calories floating around, then the

muscles will get stuffed pretty quickly and after that insulin

ends up moving most of those compounds into the liver

where they can be converted, for example, into triglycerides

and stored as fat. So, if you could actually eliminate all the

insulin in the body, you would completely eliminate your

ability to store energy in your muscle and basically you

would die. That’s what a type 1 diabetic is, is they can’t

produce that insulin and if that’s left untreated, they do die.

They have to take insulin. But if you could get rid of insulin,

you would basically not be able to ever recover from any of

your exercise sessions. Now if your blood insulin levels are

too high, on the other hand, that can be an issue and

multiple clinical studies have shown that chronic elevation of

your insulin levels such as the type you would get from

eating lots of starches and sugars and eating too much food

in general can lead to obesity, cardiovascular risk and most

importantly type 2 diabetes. So, don’t get me wrong. You

need insulin. But you have to learn how to balance the effects,

and specifically the anabolic or muscle growth effects of

insulin with the fat storage effects of insulin. So, before we

address the issue of insulin sensitivity with you, let’s talk

about the problem that more people have and that’s insulin

resistance. What insulin resistance is when the cell surface

receptors for insulin – specifically on your muscle cells or

most importantly in your muscle cells don’t respond to the

effects of normal levels of insulin. So they resist the effect of

insulin. And then what happens is your pancreas just

releases more insulin, and more insulin to try and get these

cells to store nutrients. You get chronically high levels of

circulating insulin and that is insulin resistance. It can be

genetically based. It can also be induced by constantly high

circulating levels of blood sugar. But either way it eventually

leads to type 2 diabetes. Now insulin sensitivity on the other

hand is actually a pretty good thing. The reason is that your

muscle cells will respond to very small levels of insulin. So

it’s not like you have a problem with producing insulin. It’s

just that you don’t need very much insulin to get into that

anabolic state, that state where your muscles take up the

carbohydrates and the amino acids very efficiently. So at the

muscle level, high insulin sensitivity is – it’s a very good

thing, and you don’t have to be concerned about that. Now

the amount of insulin sensitivity that individuals have can be

manipulated meaning that you could genetically be born

with high insulin sensitivity, but exercise makes you sensitive

to insulin. And that’s why in about the 20 minutes after you

exercise, you’re essentially bullet proof to a lot of things that

you could take in. There’s even research that goes beyond

that and shows that people for several hours after exercise –

in one study, up to 22 hours after exercise – had better

sensitivity to insulin and were able to get away so to speak

with eating either higher sugar based meals or just more

calories in general. That’s why another thing you need to

place importance on if you’re listening to this is not just

exercising once and then sitting around the rest of the day,

but getting up, moving around, being physically active as

much as possible. Sometimes I’ll split an hour and a half long

exercise session into three half hour sessions throughout the

day so I’m just amping up my insulin sensitivity throughout

the day frequently and if I’m eating frequently, there’s that

much more energy getting uptaken into my muscle. So, both

aerobic training an weightlifting are going to increase your

insulin sensitivity. Things in your diet can increase your

insulin sensitivity, specifically Omega 3 fatty acids like the

flax oils or the fish oils, chromium or vanadium – those are

two supplements that are in a fat burning supplement I

recommend called Thermo Factor. Those will improve

insulin sensitivity. Alpha lipoic acid is another supplement

that increase insulin sensitivity. And any diet that has a lot of

fiber in it can also help out quite a bit. And the interesting

thing is that there’s actually some research that shows that a

low carb, high fat diet like a super high fat diet can actually

decrease insulin sensitivity. So there you go, if you’re really

concerned about your insulin sensitivity and you want to get

it to go down, just start eating really low carbs and really

high fat meals. So, basically what the ultimate answer to your

question is, is that if you’re actually producing enough

insulin then the fact that your body is very sensitive to it is

not a red flag for me. I’m not a doctor, but insulin sensitivity

is great for muscle growth and response. Now you ask can

having low insulin hinder athletic performance? Yes. It could.

But your problem isn’t low insulin. Your problem is insulin

sensitivity and that’s not a problem. As far as your other

question, is it common for generally fit people to have low

insulin levels? Yes. People who exercise will have low insulin

levels because they’re more sensitive to the circulating levels

of insulin, so the pancreas just produces less. I would – if

you’re not experiencing problems with your blood glucose

levels – not be too concerned about your issue. Again, I’m

not a doctor, but I’m really not that concerned and insulin

sensitivity for the most part is a good thing. I would actually

like to congratulate you BJ because even though you’re the

first question I responded to, I’m nominating you as the top

question for this week’s top podcast. So you’re going to get a

free month of membership to my Body Transformation Club.

If you’re listening in, email me and I will give you full access

to the club’s secret video page, a life changing mail from me

every single week with fitness and nutrition tips, and you can

just send me an email and I’ll hook you up. So we’re going to

move on to a question from listener Thomas.

Thomas asks: I recently signed up for your podcast and am finally all in for

this fitness push. I’ve recently had tremendous problems

with my calf muscles. My calf muscles are approximately 20

inches in circumference (and for those of you listening in,

that’s huge.) I’m constantly straining them and pulling them

as I start to push myself with exercise. I’m signing up for

your 2010 Summer Body contest in May. Can you make any

suggestions?

Ben answers: Absolutely. As you lose weight you’ll put a little less stress on

your calves. But anytime that you’re exercising, there’s a

certain phase of exercise that actually causes the micro-tears

which can lead to discomfort and soreness as well as strains.

And that’s called the eccentric phase of exercise. Any time

you’re lowering yourself or slowing yourself down or

producing impact, you are engaging in an eccentric

contraction. If I were you, I would completely avoid those

types of contractions on your calves until your weight has

dropped to the point where either your calf muscles are

smaller in circumference or you weigh less. So what are some

of the things you should be avoiding? High impact running.

Light jogging or walking would probably be okay.

Interestingly, the treadmill versus running outside is going

to decrease the ground reaction forces just a little bit, give a

little less strain on your calf than running outdoors would. I

would avoid stepping down. I would avoid the lowering

phase of squats and the lowering phase of calf raises. I would

be careful with anything that involves jumping and landing if

you’re doing any type of plyometrics. I would limit those.

And I would focus instead on upright bicycling, recumbent

bicycling and elliptical for your cardiovascular modes.

Swimming, if you do swim, would also be fantastic. And then

I would focus when you are lifting on any exercise that uses

your calf muscle, don’t worry about controlling the lowering

phase of that lift. Actually let your body accelerate through it

pretty quickly. So avoid those eccentric activities for the

calves and that will help you out quite a bit with the strains

and you’ll still be able to lose weight without actually doing a

lot of that impact-based stuff. Just save that for until you

weigh a little less.

Phil asks: I’m currently training for Ironman Corti’lane in June. Last

week I had unexpected surgery on my abdominal area and

the surgeon has grounded me from anything except spinning

on a trainer for two weeks. What I should be doing to keep as

strong as possible during this time? I can lift weights as long

as they aren’t too heavy.

Ben answers: First of all, let’s talk about what you should not be doing, Phil,

and that would be anything that places a stress on the

abdominal area, any type of abdominal flexion – crunches,

V-ups, things of that nature – as well as any heavy weights

that would cause you to hold your breath and put more

pressure internally on the area in which you – I’m assuming

– herniated. Herniated… you may have torn your abdominal

muscle as well. But either way, you need to avoid those types

of things which means that most of the core exercises you do

are going to have to kind of be put on hold, especially core

exercises that put you through an active range of motion that

shorten or lengthen that muscle versus an isometric range of

motion in which under no pressure or body weight pressure

might be okay. So front planks, side planks – those types of

exercises if given clearance by your doctor would be okay.

Crunches, V-ups, like I mentioned – not such a good idea. If

I were you and I were in your shoes, I would be putting

together a machine-based circuit where you’re sitting down,

where the exercises are controlled so you would pick for

example eight machines at your gym – like the chest press,

the shoulder press, the pull-down, the seated row, leg

extension, leg curl, leg adductor and leg abductor. And you

can go through those eight exercises with minimal rest

focusing on using a lighter weight and doing about three to

four circuits so you’re really hitting a lot of your

cardiovascular endurance while at the same time

maintaining some of that lean muscle which is going to be

super important. I would also recommend that you of course

as you mentioned, keep on spinning and I’m assuming

because of any surgical wounds, you need to avoid swimming

but the light weight lifting will help out with that quite a bit.

So that’s what I would do if I were in your boots.

Chuck asks: I read an article recently that talked about a new way of

carbo loading. It did not mention what distance it was

referring to, but the article suggested that instead of doing a

traditional load over a few days, to instead do a very hard

three minute exercise bout followed with 30 seconds at

maximal speed 24 hours before a race. Then for the next 24

hours eat only 10 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of

body weight leading up to the race. (Let’s see, 10 grams of

carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight, so… that’s still a

lot of carbs. That’s like 2500 calories of carbs for a day. Not

bad. I guess that is loading.) I was wondering what your

thoughts on this were and if I got it right, what was the

article saying?

Ben answers: Well that’s a great question. I actually haven’t talked about

carb loading for a little while on this show although I have

mentioned that study you refer to, Chuck, in previous

episodes of the podcast. So, basically let’s talk a little bit

about this and actually you had a follow up question that I’ll

address in my answer to this question, and your follow up

question asked, “What type of carbohydrate should be used

during training versus after training?”

So as far as carbohydrate loading goes, kind of the classic

carbo loading model would be about three days of not taking

in many carbohydrates at all. About 60 to 100 grams per day,

which for those of you who want to do that gram conversion,

there are 4 calories per gram, so we’d be talking about 240 to

400 calories of carbohydrate per day. Very low. And you

combine that with exhaustive exercise, that takes you to the

point where you’ve depleted your carbohydrate stores, and

then once you’ve got all of your enzymes responsible for

taking up carbohydrate into muscle tissue super starved and

ready to suck up lots of carbohydrate, you do three days or

up to six days of a very high carbohydrate intake up to about

85 to 90% of your total caloric intake. While you at the same

time taper and reduce your training volume, you get what’s

called glycogen super compensation and that allows you to

store up to 60% more carbohydrate than you’d be able to

under normal conditions. Then of course the benefit to this is

that means you can go longer and possibly harder in your

training. Now, when you look at recent studies, they’ve not

only found that you can get similar carbohydrate absorption

without going so deep into that depletion phase, and they’ve

also found as you mentioned in the study that you referenced

that you can just do a day before the race a super hard series

of 30 second sprints and then go into a high, high amount of

carbohydrate intake after those sprints. So what this comes

down to is there’s more than one way to skin a cat. I

personally, just because it’s almost become like a traditional

thing for me getting ready for a race, maybe almost a little bit

superstitious – but I like to do the depleting load a week

before the race and then go low carb for about three days and

then start to amp up my carbohydrate intake for four days.

Works like a charm for me every time. So I just keep doing it.

But your method or the other method that I mentioned, just

increasing the carbohydrate intake without going through

that depletion phase could also work just fine. Now as far as

your pre-exercise and your post-exercise carbohydrate intake

– most of the recent research doesn’t really show that there’s

going to be a huge issue in taking in a high glycemic index

carb versus a low glycemic index carb. But typically you’d

want to take in about 150 to a little over 300 grams of

carbohydrates there to four hours before a race. Or I’m sorry,

before an endurance performance event. Now, the issue with

that is that’s what the research shows but I find with most of

my clients that they get hungry if they wait three to four

hours at that point. And so what I recommend is closer to

two hours which still gives you that gastric emptying and

then just a quick snack right before the race. I’m not too

particular on whether it’s high glycemic index or low

glycemic index. I’m a bigger fan of getting in – if you’re going

to take in a 600 calorie meal two hours before the race – of

going after something that’s not just like chocolate and fruit

juice just because I find that, for me, my energy levels drop.

Research may not show that that hypoglycemic response –

the high blood sugar – gives you problems, but it sure does

with me. And I have a lot of other people I’ve talked to who

just feel like they have that sugar high going and then they’re

at a low below a race. So, I go after the sweet potato, yam,

that type of carbohydrate pre-race. And then post, that’s

when the sweeter sugars really feel like they give you a quick,

quick boost in sugar and they higher glycemic index

carbohydrates are definitely encouraged although you’re so

insulin sensitive right after an exercise event – we already

talked about that – that you could still do the sweet potato,

the yam or super low glycemic index carbohydrate, a quinoa,

a legume, and still get really good glycogen absorption and

amino acid uptake. So ultimately what it comes down to is

big meal two hours before, get the blood sugar levels up with

for example a gel directly beforehand and if you find that

you’re sugar sensitive, try and keep that pre-race or pre-

event low glycemic index and then go with the sweeter sugars,

the higher glycemic index foods after. But if you want to do

the beans and rice instead, probably not going to be that big

of a deal. So hopefully that helps out. And of course make

sure you get your protein in post-race or post-event as well.

And you can also throw in my little secret weapon. I use a

concentrated branch chain amino acid protolytic enzyme

source called Recoveries. I throw that in as well and it works

wonders.

Greg asks: I was wondering if you could provide some advice on what

type of wheels I should get for my tri-bike? I recently demo-

ed a pair of high end carbon tubular wheels and was blown

away by the performance, but many folks say I shouldn’t use

tubulars for racing since they’re difficult to repair and could

cost you the race if you flat. I will never podium so I’m

willing to take the race but others are saying I should go with

a clincher tire since the performance gap is not that big

anymore. Any thoughts?

Ben answers: Well, just a real quick clarification for those of you listening.

The tubular are also called the “sew ups.” Those are the tires

that have the tubes kind of already inside of them and you

pre-glue them and then put them onto your bike. They attach

to the rim of your bike wheel and then for your flat repair on

the tubular, you carry another pre-glued tire and you

basically rip the entire tubular tire off when you want to

change it after you’ve flatted and put that new pre-glued tire

on and then keep your fingers cross so that glue is going to

hold on to the rim well enough for you to be able to corner

without tire slippage. They can actually be – if you really get

the method down – quicker to change than a clincher. And

the other thing about the tubular is that even though they’re

more expensive and a little bit harder to change – they’re

lighter, they tend to have a higher inflation method than

most clinchers so you can get better rolling resistance – they

do get fewer flats because you don’t get that tube pinching

against the tire like you do in a clincher and I find it’s a little

bit more of a comfortable ride. What I do during a race is

rather than messing around with changing the entire tubular,

I just carry this stuff called Vittoria Pit Stop, inject some

foam followed by a little CO2 into the tubular and that does

the trick. I’ve had it work once and I’ve had it be a complete

failure another time. So there’s always a risk, but that’s

racing. And then with the clinchers – the clinchers can be

easier intuitively to change because you just rip out the tube,

put in the new tube and fill it up versus doing all the pre-

gluing, fitting and fretting type of thing that you have to do

with tubular – clinchers are definitely less expensive. They’re

like half the cost of a tubular. It’s easy to carry what you need

for a flat. A tubular tire takes up a lot more room than a

clincher tube, but the clinchers are heavier. Some of them

you can’t fill up quite as high and some people say they’re not

quite as comfortable. You can also get that pinching between

the tube and the tire which can cause a second flat right after

you get your first flat. Now the high end clinchers from

everything that I’ve read in terms of the reviews on the new

clinchers – those are almost just as good as the new tubular

and I’m actually very tempted myself to switch to the

clinchers just based on the – I think they’re easier to change

personally, and I’m probably going to switch to using a

Power Tap Power Meter which means I’ll be using the same

wheels for training as I am for racing, and I really don’t want

to be using tubular in my training so I’m probably going to

switch to the clinchers. Ultimately if you go for a high end

clincher, you’re going to get the same benefits as you do from

a tubular. If you decide to go for a tubular, make sure that

you know how to change it and carry some of that Vittoria Pit

Stop with you and you should be good to go. So good

question.

Tina asks: I’ve been using your recommended greens supplement

EnerPrime for about two months ago and I’m really enjoying

the energy and the feeling of wellness I get from it. As you

mentioned on your podcast, I did experience about four

weeks of very itchy skin and a mild rash as I released the

toxins from my body which eventually subsided. Since

EnerPrime can be expensive I decided to try another greens

supplement from Trader Joe’s that was more cost-effective.

However shortly after taking the Trader’s Joe version, I

experienced the same itchy skin and rash symptoms. Would

I have had to detox again if I was already taking the

EnerPrime but switched to another greens supplement?

Does the other greens supplement release different toxins

and how do I tell the quality or the difference in the quality

between the greens supplements?

Ben answers: It is not necessarily completely due to detoxification, Tina,

that you experienced an itch and a rash. It could also be an

allergenic response to something that your body was not

quite used to. There’s a lot of hay and grass type additives to

these greens supplements and it’s possible that the second

one that you took contained some elements that the

EnerPrime did not contain. So the detox effect is not the only

culprit when it comes to a rash or an itchy skin. It can just be

a new nutrient or a new compound that you’re putting into

your body that it basically just doesn’t know how to deal with

and eventually develops a tolerance to as you take more of it.

Now as far as analyzing the quality, it’s very simple. What

you need to look for is that the company that makes your

supplement is GMP certified. When a company is GMP

certified, that simply means that they are held to certain

standards and they’re quality management standards and

the supplements company has to jump through several

hoops to actually get GMP certified. So you can check for

GMP certification on the label. If you don’t see it on the label,

look for the manufacturer of the product. Check out their

Web site, call them on the phone. I did some research on

EnerPrime and it is produced by one of the world’s leaders in

what’s called micro-algae technology. These are very, very

high quality spirulina out of Hawaii and all of the ingredients

are high, high quality. That’s why a lot of times this stuff goes

into back order because I happen to know that the company

that puts it out IMPaX refuses to use any other sources other

than the sources that they currently use and so sometimes if

they get a low batch of spirulina then that means they just

don’t make the supplement until they get the quality of the

ingredient that they put into the EnerPrime. So ultimately

what I’m saying is that your supplement from Trader’s Joe, it

doesn’t necessarily mean that because it’s less expensive,

that it’s inferior but I would do some research and check and

see what lab makes it. Make sure they’re GMP certified and

then go from there. I really haven’t found any other greens

supplement that I feel like I can feel the effects of EnerPrime

and that’s why I continue to take that. Either in the powder

form or the capsule form. Pretty much whatever I can get my

hands on. And then you have a follow-up question.

Tina asks: You talked about mini fasts with a 30 to 45 minute aerobic

cardio session to burn extra fat. Would you recommend this

mini fast if you were also doing weight training? I like this

concept but I only work out in the early mornings and I’d like

your opinion on how to do workouts and use these mini fasts

optimally.

Ben answers: Well, physiologically, the mini fasts were done with an

aerobic workout meaning that subjects – and if you didn’t

hear about the mini fasts, listen to podcast number 90 – but

subjects did a mini fast. They included an aerobic exercise

session of about 45 minutes during the mini fast and aerobic

means that your body is primarily using fat as a fuel and

you’re not in an oxygen deprived state. Weightlifting is just

typically the opposite of that. Weightlifting, you’re using

almost purely muscle glycogen and you are in an anaerobic

state the entire time. Now, I suppose there’s a little bit of an

aerobic effect because your heart rate is high between sets

and you kind of go aerobic when you’re not actually lifting

the weight itself. But the mini fast study didn’t look at

weightlifting, so I can’t say from a research perspective

whether or not you’re going to see the same effect. The only

issue I have with weightlifting is that if you’re in a glycogen

depleted state, you’re able to lift a lot less and produce a

much lower contraction. So you’re not doing yourself any

favors if it comes to getting stronger if you’re lifting starved. I

do not recommend for fat loss in the direct sense that I don’t

recommend you go weightlift when you’re super energy-

depleted to burn a little extra fat. Use a light aerobic session

for that. Make sure that you weightlift when your body has

something in it or is going to get something in it immediately

after. That kind of returns to the other part of this, is that in

the mini fast they continued to fast for a couple of hours after

they did that aerobics session and when weightlifting, you

fast for a couple of hours, you completely miss your glycogen

and amino acid window for refueling and you essentially just

get much, much lower benefits than you would normally be

able to out of the weightlifting. So I wouldn’t recommend it. I

would recommend if you’re going to weightlift, do this: go to

bed, get up, go do your weightlifting and then go get

something in your body within 20 minutes after. So a little

bit of a modification of that mini fast. But if you get a good

solid post-workout meal in, you’ll be okay. Just don’t be too

starved. And if you’re super hungry, as soon as you start

weightlifting, it’s a sign that you’re probably pretty

hypoglycemic I wouldn’t be weightlifting in that state just

because of the detrimental performance effects.

Diana asks: I have a question. I just recently tried a sample of an energy

drink called SPARK made by a company called AdvoCare. Is

this an okay energy drink because I really liked it better than

any of the other energy drinks and it seems to be better for

me.

Ben answers: Well you guys have kind of heard me rip into a lot of energy

drinks on this show before based off the ingredients they

have. If you didn’t listen to the interview I did on Red Bull

last week, go to www.bengreenfieldfitness.com. Scroll down

just a few posts below this episode – episode number 91 –

and check out the shocking interview that I did on Red Bull.

But this SPARK energy drink, you know, it has a lot of the

ingredients that a lot of the other energy drinks do and it’s

got the B vitamin complex. It’s got the taurine, the tyrosine,

some of those energy boosting amino acids. It’s got the

caffeine – I’m looking at the label right here. Caffeine, 120

milligrams. About four times what I take in my energy drink.

So you’re getting the caffeine kick. The central nervous

system stimulation. The potential for adrenal fatigue. That’s

one red flag but not as big a red flag for me as the fact that it

says no sugar. My red flags go off as soon as I see that

advertisement and sure enough, you go to the label and

they’ve added sucralose into it. Folks, I just don’t

recommend that you take in artificial sweeteners. Sucralose

is kind of a glucose molecule that has chlorine added for a

couple of the hydroxy groups and there’s been some research

done in rats per se, but research that shows that it can

damage some of the good bacteria in your stomach. And the

other issue with the sucralose is it’s a chemical. It’s not like I

never eat chemicals, but if it’s something that you’re going to

be taking on a regular basis – if you’re going to shoot this

once a week as a little bit of an energy boost before you, I

don’t know, go do your hardest workout of the week – not a

big deal. But this is again, not something I would be taking in

every day frequently due to the high caffeine content and the

level of artificial sweetener. So, hopefully frequent listeners

are listening how to analyze energy drinks.

Ben: A question from Kelly. Kelly has a very long question but

ultimately what her question comes down to… if you want to

read her entire question go listen to the Shownotes, but she

says after going on and on about this weight loss plateau that

she’s on, if she uses a natural supplement like apple cider

vinegar would it help her to lose weight?

So apple cider vinegar which I happen to have in my pantry,

and I use it when I’m congested actually because it tends to

break down the snot that kind of collects in your ducts and in

your throat. Apple cider vinegar – it’s basically kind of a dark,

cloudy vinegar. It’s made by breaking down the bacteria in

the yeast in apple cider and turning it into alcohol and then

into vinegar. And it’s been used kind of as a cure all holistic

folk medicine type of remedy for a long time. It’s really rich

in potassium and a lot of people swear by it in terms of

destroying harmful bacteria in the digestive tract or using it

as a digestive tonic. And I got to admit when my stomach

hurts a little bit I take a probiotic. I also will shoot a couple

shots of apple cider vinegar and it seems to help out. As far

as fat loss, apple cider vinegar has also become pretty

popular as a fat burner and as an appetite suppressant. I

think it works as an appetite suppressant just because the

stuff tastes so nasty, you don’t want to eat anything else after

you’ve tried it out. But the idea is that some of the enzymes,

the vitamins, the potassium in it are supposedly supposed to

help with weight loss and there’s a really small study done a

few years ago that found that people that ate a piece of bread

and then ate some vinegar with it felt more full and more

satiated than the people who ate the bread and didn’t eat any

vinegar. It’s possible that that’s due to the lowering of the

glycemic index of the carbohydrate by the vinegar. And there

was a more recent research study done in Sweden where

people consumed two tablespoons of vinegar with a high

carb meal and their blood sugar was about 23% lower than

when they skipped the vinegar. So there is some anecdotal

research here – not even anecdotal research – some small

studies that suggest that apple cider vinegar could have an

effect on your blood sugar levels which could indirectly affect

your weight. The other thing about the apple cider vinegar is

that even though it tastes acidic or you think it’s acidic, it’s

actually a quite alkaline food once you consume it and so if

you’re looking at an acid-alkaline balance perspective type of

issue, trying to balance out your cortisol levels, trying to

reduce inflammation – it would be considered another one of

those alkalinic foods that you could consume. So ultimately

apple cider vinegar is going to be one of those things that

might give you a little extra percentage here, an extra

percentage there. Usually I find when I do nutritional

consultations with people and that’s just, you know, people

hire me to do 20, 30 minute nutrition consultations where

they send me their diet logs and I break down their diet. I

also do month long nutritional overhauls with people where

we do four phone calls during the month and I go over

everything with them. Typically I find out that these little

things like supplements are very, very small compared to

some big red flags that we find like testing people for

allergies and finding out that they’re allergic to half the

things that they’re eating or finding out that there’s a severe

amount of overtraining going on and the testosterone

cortisol ratios are off. So usually a little supplement is not a

culprit. Now there can be some big red flags, things like

you’re not taking any magnesium, you’re not taking any

vitamin D and you’re deficient in both of those which tends

to really affect energy levels and weight and when you start

to add up stuff like that, that tends to be an issue. But a little

thing like apple cider vinegar, I’m guessing there are some

bigger issues going on that that’s not going to completely

eliminate. So good question.

That about wraps up our questions for this week. So

remember you can email me ben@bengreenfieldfitness.com

if you have a question. Skype Pacific Fit or call toll free to

8772099439 and we’re going to move on to this week’s

interview on cramping with Dr. Pascal.

Ben: Hey podcast listeners, this is Ben Greenfield and I’m here

today with Dr. Pascal and he’s a graduate of UCLA and

Palmer Chiropractic College and he’s licensed as a primary

health care physician. He’s almost a former world class

runner and has a very good reputation as a leader in health

care. He’s been in Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated,

Bicycling magazine and multiple newspapers and radio and

television specials. He’s been the treating doctor at hundreds

of athletic events including the Olympic Games, the World

Track and Field Championships, the World Gymnastics

Championships, European Track and Field Championships,

PGA Golf Tour, US Olympic Track and Field Trials, Pro-

Beach Volleyball Tour and the US National Track and Field

Championships. He knows quite a bit about exercise and the

problems that athletes face and he also knows quite a bit

about cramping, which is what we’re going to be talking

about today. So, Dr. Pascal, thanks for coming on the call.

Dr. Pascal: You’re very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Ben: Well, I suppose we should just cut straight to the chase

because this is something that baffles some people and that

would be exactly what the cause factors are for cramps. So

when someone’s out exercising, what exactly causes the

muscle to cramp or what multiple factors could cause the

muscle to cramp?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, the two most common causes of cramping are

dehydration – not enough fluid on board – and then an

imbalance in your electrolytes. So the bad news is when you

get a cramp it can definitely affect your physiologic function,

your athletic performance. But the good news is most cramps

can be totally prevented if you take a little prophylactic care

before you work out.

Ben: Okay. So if electrolyte imbalance cause cramps, do you think

that would be the only issue that could cause something like

a cramp or is there anything else that an athlete should be

aware of in your opinion?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah. That’s a great question. Of course electrolytes are key

and we’ll certainly get into that but the other thing is just

being well hydrated. Most people do not drink enough water

during the course of the day. They may be drinking fluids all

day long thinking that fluid intake is the same as water

intake, but the typical person drinking fluids is drinking

sodas which are loaded in salts and that is going to be

throwing off your electrolyte balance and also they’re

drinking caffeine which again is going to actually make you

more dehydrated since it tends to act as a diuretic. So, when

we talk about proper hydration, we’re talking about you as a

normal person should have at least one ounce of water for

every pound of body weight per day.

Ben: One ounce of water for every pound of body weight per day.

So again like me at 175 pounds, I should be focusing on 175

ounces of water? Wow.

Dr. Pascal: Absolutely. So you’ve got to be drinking a lot all the time, and

of course on a hot day, you’re going to want to drink even

more.

Ben: Now this seems to be a little bit contrary to what I’ve heard

in terms of taking your body weight, dividing that in half and

drinking that many ounces per day. You’re saying that

should be having almost twice as much?

Dr. Pascal: That is true. People that are exercising need to have a lot of

water on board. And you have to realize that 70% of your

body is water and the way that all the nutrients get into every

single cell is through fluid, and the way that all the waste

products get out of all the cells is also through that fluid

medium, and so it’s very important to try to shoot for that. If

you can get over that 50% level more toward one ounce per

pound, you’re going to be a lot better off athletically.

Ben: Interesting. Okay, now when someone is drinking the soda

and caffeinated beverages, obviously like you say that’s going

to be a causation factor for cramps in someone who may

even feel like they’re hydrating properly. But what about

certain foods? Are there foods you’re aware of that would

raise or lower your risk of cramping that you might want to

avoid before athletic activity?

Dr. Pascal: That’s a great question. If you have food that is high in

calcium, high in potassium, high in sodium – those are the

things that tend to throw off that ratio because you have to

realize the main factor for muscle contraction is calcium.

And, the electrolyte or mineral that causes the muscle to

relax is magnesium and so the more calcium that you have in

your diet then the more you will throw that balance out.

Ben: Interesting. So there could actually be an issue if you’re

taking a lot of calcium supplements or have a lot of calcium

sources in your diet and you’re not balancing that out with

other mineral sources?

Dr. Pascal: That’s absolutely correct. So food that is fairly high in

calcium of course are going to be like milk products, cheeses

– those are all pretty high and if you’re going to look at trying

to bring down that acidic rate, that acidic balance, and get a

little bit more magnesium, that’s going to be the green, green

food. So your dark green vegetables are going to be a lot

better for you.

Ben: Now what about – and this might just be an old wives’ tale –

what about pickle juice? I’ve actually seen that come up every

once in a while and been asked by a couple of people whether

pickle juice would actually assist with cramping. Do you have

an opinion for something like that?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, you know, there are a lot of trainers – athletic trainers

– that use pickle juice prophylactically. They’ll say take one

or two ounces of pickle juice because what it is going to do is

it is going to – pickle juice is very acidic. It’s way down there

at about 3.2, 3.7. Water of course is neutral at 7.0. And the

exact mechanism of that why makes such a huge difference

isn’t known. What I personally think is that when you take in

all that pickle juice then your body is going to have to

balance it, so it’s going to hold more water to try and

neutralize that acidity that you just did to your body by

drinking the pickle juice. So then that goes back to the first

thing that I said about hydration level. When you drink the

pickle juice, it’s going to make your body hold in more water.

That’s going to help those muscles be better hydrated and

then that’s going to decrease that risk of cramping.

Ben: Now in addition to pickle juice, salt pills are also something

that I know a lot of people utilize. Is the actual ingredient

profile on the salt pill that you use important? In other words

should somebody be looking for something beyond sodium

chloride or is just table salt okay? What exactly should you

look for?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, that’s… I don’t really like table salt to handle cramping.

I found that the biggest factor besides hydration for

cramping is that you don’t have enough magnesium in the

body. Magnesium is responsible for over 350 different

physiologic functions in your body and it’s actually the stress

mineral. When your body is under physical stress, like you’re

training a lot, it’s under chemical stress – you drink a cup of

coffee or you drink a beer or you’re out breathing and

running in all our wonderful air pollution – those are all

sorts of chemical stress or under emotional or mental stress.

This is a very stressful planet. All of those things cause the

body to burn more magnesium. So most people than become

deficient in magnesium, and then you start to cramp. So I

like to put my athletes on a magnesium supplement. So we

use Calm from Natural Vitality. Sometimes if they’re – like

most women, we’ll put them on a pure magnesium. For men,

for male athletes I put them on a little bit of calcium as well

like Calm plus calcium, so it’s two-thirds magnesium, one-

third calcium.

Ben: Now do you ever have any of your athletes go out and do a

competition where they actually have to have salt out there

in the competition with them like a long bike ride or

something of that nature?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, I have. Like the winner of the New York City Marathon

is my patient. That’s Keflezighi and he’s actually going to be

running in Boston on Monday. So that would be a good

example. A marathon runner, you need to look at

maintaining those electrolytes. So out on that course,

everything then that he takes into his body or you have a

cyclist that’s out on a couple hours bike ride, it’s very

important that you are supplementing. And the thing that

gets most overlooked, because people will be taking a sodium

and potassium – potassium is very often very looked. But the

last thing are your trace minerals. We have these little tiny

electrolytes with all those fancy names that people tend to

forget about like cadmium and boron. To take a trace

mineral supplement is typically it’s packaged as cell salts or

like Natural Vitality has a liquid trace mineral supplement

that works very well.

Ben: And you’re simply mixing that mineral in with the liquid that

the athlete is consuming during exercise? Or are they

carrying that in a small vial with them while they’re out there?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, like my athletes that are working out on a track, for

example, they’ll mix their own – they’ll make their own

version of Gatorade. I don’t really like Gatorade because

there are some things in there that can actually – although

they help with your electrolyte balance – they can block

cellular repair. So although it prevents you from cramping

and it rehydrates you and handles your electrolyte

imbalances, it also slows down your recovery and your repair.

So, it helps you in some areas. It hurts you in others. So I

have the athletes that I work with make their own concoction

of a multivitamin, again with like Natural Vitality, they have

a product called Organic Life Vitamins. So it’s a liquid

multivitamin and then they’ll add Natural Life minerals

which is a liquid trace minerals, and also add a little bit of

the Calm plus calcium. So that’s the magnesium with a little

bit of calcium. And they just mix it all into a big thing of

water and they drink that as they work out.

Ben: Awesome. Well, you know, I’m a big fan of the Natural Calm

products. I have those over at www.pacificfit.net, one of the

Web sites where I coach athletes as something I encourage

my athletes to use. But do you ever incorporate salt capsules

or pills, specifically two of the ones that I know that are used

in the market are Endurolytes and Athlytes. Have you ever

had an athlete – or do you yourself know much about those?

Dr. Pascal: I don’t. I haven’t had my athletes use those products. I don’t

have them go out of their way to supplement salts but I don’t

work with… maybe if you’re an ultra marathoner and thing

like that – but those aren’t the athletes that I typically work

with, you know?

Ben: Gotcha. But you have found liquid mineral supplementation

to be effective in staving off cramps for endurance athletes?

Dr. Pascal: Absolutely.

Ben: Interesting. Now as far as the cramp goes, I know we talked a

little bit about dehydration being a factor for cramping but I

also get the question about whether there can be factors

related to muscle fatigue. Like if a muscle is contracting over

and over again, firing, being activated, is there anything that

could happen at the muscle level or the cellular level that

could cause that cramp even if an athlete were well-hydrated?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah. Well, of course another associated factor with

cramping that’s well known is that muscle fatigue. But you

know, when you have a muscle that’s low in glucose and

you’ve worked out all of its energy and all that ATP and it’s

totally dead, it doesn’t tend to cramp. But when you have a

muscle that’s been overused and it’s dehydrated and you

burned through all those electrolytes, it does cramp. So when

a person says, well overuse of a muscle causes muscle

cramping – on the one hand, yes it’s true but what’s going on?

Is it the overuse and you’ve gone through all the energy

source? All the ATP is gone? Or is it a hydration or

electrolyte issue?

Ben: It makes sense, yeah.

Dr. Pascal: And so from my experience, you’re back to those electrolytes

and fluid ratios.

Ben: Gotcha. Now the calcium leakage that occurs while someone

is out exercising – it’s been proposed in many studies that

that’s responsible for not only the post-exercise soreness but

also some of the fatigue that occurs during exercise. If you

have a bunch of calcium leaking into your tissue as you’re

working out, is that something that can be controlled? I

know that you talked about magnesium being a co-factor for

calcium but would something like magnesium help with

calcium leakage?

Dr. Pascal: Absolutely, because magnesium binds to calcium. So as a

matter of fact, when we look at bone density, when we

compare the American population and their typical diet with

England and their calcium intake. In the United States, the

typical person has a much, much higher calcium intake in

their diet and yet our levels of osteoporosis – you know, bone

loss, decreased bone density – is much higher. And you

would think that if we’re having more calcium in our diet

that we would have a lower level of osteoporosis, a higher

amount of bone density. But what happens is when you take

in calcium and you don’t have magnesium to bind with it,

then the body actually looks around and says “Okay this

person just ate all this calcium, ingested all this calcium. We

need magnesium to bind with it.” So it looks around the body

for magnesium sources and the magnesium is in the bone. So

it will go in and literally pull the magnesium out of the bone

to bind with the calcium that was just ingested. And so in our

effort to take more calcium to increase bone density, we are

actually ultimately leeching more calcium out of the body

because we’re losing that binding agent of the magnesium.

Ben: Gotcha. So basically I guess we’re returning full circle to the

question about muscular fatigue. That even if a muscle is

tired and it’s not necessarily a problem with the athlete being

dehydrated, they could benefit from some type of mineral at

that point or prophylactic mineral up to that point.

Dr. Pascal: That’s right and so I found that since calcium is that main

factor, like you said when it leaks into the tissues, it makes

them very sore, then we want to supplement with that

magnesium to help bind that calcium and help metabolize it

out of those tissues.

Ben: Now in terms of the transport of fluids into muscles being

inhibited or somehow delivery of the electrolytes to the

muscles being inhibited – is that a valid theory? Could

something like that actually happen in an athlete where

they’re taking in electrolytes or taking in water but there’s

something going on that’s not allowing muscle to actually get

what you’re giving it?

Dr. Pascal: Well, that’s a little bit tougher. The body works very hard to

maintain balance, to maintain this homeostasis. And that

gatekeeper of the cell wall is that sodium potassium pump.

So, the potential exists I guess if your sodium potassium

levels are so off that then that door cannot open and close

properly, that you are going to inhibit that absorption of

water.

Ben: Now have you ever come across in your practice any type of

factor that would predispose an athlete to someone like that?

If someone’s thinking well gosh, I hydrate and I take my

electrolytes. Maybe I have some type of medical problem

with my pumps so to speak.

Dr. Pascal: I have not seen that. What I have seen is like in our practice,

although we have a fairly large sports medicine practice, I

had 43 of my athletes compete in Beijing and they won 10

gold medals, 5 silver medals, 5 bronze medals so we’re pretty

used to seeing elite athletes. One of the things that even

those guys have are allergies. And so, about a third of my

practice are allergy patients and what we’ve found and the

technique of allergy elimination that we use is we found that

a person can actually be sensitive to or allergic to any

substance. So you could have a person that is sensitive to

calcium, just like you could have a person who’s sensitive to a

peanut or they can be sensitive to an egg. They eat an egg,

they get blotches all over their face or they eat a peanut and

they go into anaphylactic shock. Those are allergic reactions.

Well, you can have a sensitive issue with like calcium and

then the body is unable to properly absorb calcium or they’re

sensitive to magnesium and the body cannot properly absorb

magnesium for any electrolyte, any mineral. And so then if

your body can’t properly absorb, metabolize its basic

nutrients than you can get a deficiency there which would

then develop into – that would be more that underlying

medical condition. The problem with going to your typical

MD to get tested though is they’re going to be doing a blood

test for that classic allergy reaction, allergic reaction,

antibiotic reaction and that test is not sensitive enough to

detect an underlying sensitivity to a mineral. So seeing a

doctor that uses a more sensitive energetic type diagnostic

test like that’s using applied kinesiology muscle testing to

test out the body’s sensitivities to these different minerals

would uncover that.

Ben: Okay, that makes sense. Now moving on to kind of the

logistics of the actual cramp occurring. Let’s say it’s actually

happened regardless of whether or not the athlete has taken

on some of these measures to make sure it doesn’t happen. It

happens. Now what do you recommend to your athletes?

Stop and massage? Completely stop and stretch? Take

electrolytes right there and then? What are the strategies

that an athlete could utilize?

Dr. Pascal: Right. It depends on the situation. You know, if you’re in a

workout and it’s not that big of a deal that you stop, then you

need to stop and stretch. Do a passive elongation of that

muscle to break its spasm. That’s going to be the best,

quickest way to stop that spasm. Then they usually will stop

in five to 30 seconds. If you’ve got some magnesium right

there or there’s some pickle juice right there, then take that

right away too and that of course – it takes a little while for

the body to absorb it, so put it under your tongue, keep it

there for 30, 60 seconds then swallow it. And that will

handle that individual cramp right then. Now, if you’re

racing, let’s say it’s the Olympic trials or this big meet or

competition that you’ve been working toward for the last six

months, that is not really a place where you want to stop,

right? So, if it’s an abdominal cramp, one of the most

effective things is to kind of try to stretch the abdominal

muscles by rolling. So leaning to one side, trying to lean back,

lean to the opposite side, bend over a little bit all the time

while you’re running or if you’re on a bike sit up in that

saddle and try to rotate that torso. You’re going to slow down,

but slowing down is better than stopping and usually if you’ll

do that for 10 or 20 seconds, it’ll break that spasm. If it’s in a

leg and you’re running or in some competition where you

don’t want to stop, if you’ve got some magnesium nearby…

hopefully you’ve got it in your water bottle on your bike or

the water that you’re running with or you go by a station,

then get those electrolytes on board as quickly as possible. So

whether you stop or not depends on how important it is.

Now of course if you keep running, you run the risk of

tearing a muscle. I had one athlete – we were at the World

Championships for track and field in Helsinki in 2005 – he’s

running the 10,000 meters and he cramped up and he felt

like “Hey this is the world championship, I’m trying to get a

medal here” and he kept running and he ended up tearing

the muscle and being out for a year. But that’s the risk you

take.

Ben: Now this is an interesting question that I’ve gotten but I’m

wondering if this would help at all. If you’re stuck out there

without any salt, let’s just say you find yourself between a

rock and a hard place, what if you lick your skin or you rang

a piece of clothing that had some sweat and get a little bit of

that under your tongue or something like that? Can that

actually help? Are there any claims to that?

Dr. Pascal: That’s a great question. I haven’t heard that one before. But

you know, if you’re not out there and there’s nothing there,

then certainly then that would be better than nothing. You

might get… obviously when you’re sweating and you’ve got

that salt caked on your arm, that’s what you’ve lost so you

can get a little bit more on board. Is that enough to make a

difference? I don’t know, you know? If you’re cramping up

and you’re rolled up in a ball out in the middle of the desert

then certainly that would be better than doing nothing.

Ben: Gotcha. So basically what this comes down to is setting

yourself up pre-events to actually prophylactically get not

just salt into your body but also the entire spectrum of

minerals and then during the event continue to take in

something, if it’s an endurance event, that gives you that full

spectrum of minerals beyond just sodium and if you do

cramp, be careful because you could tear a muscle but if

you’ve got to stop, you can try taking minerals, try massage,

something of that nature. Is that kind of where we’re going

with this?

Dr. Pascal: Absolutely. An ounce of precaution is worth a pound of cure.

Ben: Alright, and oh finally I did have one other question. Let’s

say somebody is glycogen depleted and they’re cramping,

could doing something as simple as taking in sugar help or at

that point would they need to be taking in electrolytes along

with that sugar?

Dr. Pascal: Yeah, it’s a different mechanism. So if they’re cramping up,

it’s usually – that goes back to that question, is it from the

muscle fatigue? And I don’t believe it’s from the energy, from

the glycogen. I think that it’s a hydration and electrolyte

issue. But if that’s all you have, take it. You know?

Ben: Okay, because there are usually trace amounts of minerals in

those gels anyway.

Dr. Pascal: Right. Yeah. Usually, a lot of those energy gels, they’ve

thought about that and they put a fair amount of minerals in

them.

Ben: Alright, cool. Well just a couple of questions to kind of wrap

things up. What’s your fastest mile that you’ve run before, Dr.

Pascal?

Dr. Pascal: I ran 3:59.

Ben: Nice. Nice. And you’re coaching a bunch of world class

athletes, obviously. One for Boston and your bio is a million

miles long so you’ve worked with a lot of athletes, but is

cramping an issue that you run into much with your athletes?

Dr. Pascal: I don’t run into it much because we make a big deal about it.

Ben: Because you’re just very into these trace minerals and

prophylactic measures.

Dr. Pascal: Right. Because with these athletes, they can’t – this is what

they do for a living. This is what they train for, for decades,

24 hours a day. That’s their only thought. So, when we go to

a US Championship or an Olympic Games or World

Championship, I wake up in the morning and I’m sending

them a text. “Hey, you know, take your products.” When I

see them for breakfast, “Hey did you take your stuff? Alright.”

When we’re out on that bus to the stadium, “Hey.” I’m

always on them. Always, always, always. Because the worst

thing in the world would be for one of my guys to get out

there, cramp up, not do well and then come back and go, “Oh

I forgot to take such and such.” And that he forgot, then

that’s on me too because it would be such an easy thing to

have reminded him and I don’t want to have someone lose a

chance of winning a medal, you know, for such a simple

thing. So we’re always on them.

Ben: Well, prior to our discussion today, I actually didn’t really

know that you were a fan of these Peter Gillham Natural

Vitality supplements as one of the measures that you take.

It’s interesting because I’ve interviewed a couple of other

people on electrolytes and magnesium and they’ve all

mentioned the Natural Calm, some of the other products

made by Peter Gillham. So that kind of confirms my

suspicion that the Natural Vitality stuff is one of the better

things out there. So, that’s interesting. We didn’t actually

plan this if you’re listening, but I’m just coming across that

now.

Dr. Pascal: Well, you know along those lines, let me say this. I could use

any product that I want. I’m not bound to any person or

company or group or anything. But I am bound to my

athletes. I want them to compete as well as possible, you

know? This past summer we had the latest World Track and

Field Championships in Berlin. One-third of all the medals

that the US team won were my athletes.

Ben: Wow.

Dr. Pascal: And so I take my responsibility quite seriously and I research

what I feel will put them in the best position to perform well,

and to that end, the majority of the products that I have my

athletes on happen to be Gillham’s products and that’s

because their quality control is so good. Their products are as

natural as can be and they work. And that’s the bottom line,

is they have to work.

Ben: Fantastic, well thank you for your time and I’ll put a link to

everything that we talked about in the Shownotes for this

episode, so you can go check those out and until next time,

this is Ben Greenfield and Dr. Pascal signing out.

For personal nutrition, fitness or triathlon consulting, supplements, books or DVD’s

from Ben Greenfield, please visit Pacific Elite Fitness at http://www.pacificfit.net