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Composer in Interview: Pierre BoulezAuthor(s): Simon Mawhinney and Pierre BoulezReviewed work(s):Source: Tempo, New Series, No. 216 (Apr., 2001), pp. 2-5Published by: Cambridge University PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/946725 .
Accessed: 23/05/2012 23:23
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SimonMawhinney
Composer in Interview: Pierre Boulez
(This conversation ook place in London on 25
January 000)
SIMON MAWHINNEY: Your arecurrently onductinga seasonofperformancesith the LondonSymphony
Orchestra,n a seriesof 'discoveryoncerts' hichaimto assistaudiencesn approaching0th centurymusic.
Among the variedrepertoireshat you will be per-
forming,you haveincluded neof you smaller ieces,the Originelfrom ...explosante-fixe... . Why did
youchoose hispiece?PIERRE BOULEZ: Well, because there was no
other piece to perform!I would have liked to do
...explosante-fixe..., but it was too expensive. As
you know, in addition to these four concerts in
London, we aretouring in many other cities. To
bring all the extra equipment would augmentthe cost enormously. Therefore, I took just the
Originelbecause that's the only section which
can be performed with electronics or without
electronics. (The electronics arejust an echo of
the instrumentalpart.)SM: ...explosante-fixe... began its existence as afew
pagesofbasicmaterialwhichyourealizedn 1974. A
versionof the 'original',Memoriale, appearedn
1985 and a furtherversionor flute and electronics
appearedn 1989. Thepresent ersionwascompleted
in 1993. How wouldyou trace he various tagesofthe work'sevolution?
PB:The first version was written after the death
of Stravinsky, because Tempomagazine did a
homage to Stravinskywith 'canonic' writing.
Why the idea of canonic writing, I don'tknow,but I was certainly not interested in writingcanons. I think it is something which is tied to a
style and not to be transposed.It can, however,
be transformed, and therefore I wrote a kind
of 'diagram', which was my idea of canonic
'thinking', rather than canonic 'writing'. So youcould take any order - al that was indicated byarrows- and it moved from one note to more
complicated figures. And why 'fix'? Because
every instrument should have been in a fixed
register.You can have all registerscoincide, or
you can have as many registers as there are
instruments.The firstversionwas writtenin 1972
and was for three instruments.LaterI thought of
a work for as many parts as there were small
units in the original.The resulting piece was for
flute, clarinet, trumpet, three strings, harp and
vibraphone- with electronics.
This version did not work very well. The
technology at this time was much too simple,and
too difficult to manipulaterapidly.Moreover, I
did not previously realize that if you have an
interactionbetween two instruments,you cannot
have the two textures too complex. One can be
complex - with differentspeedsand so on - and
the other has to be quite simple. Two complex
parts together creates encounters of such
complexity that the result is terriblyaleatoric.
However, I alwayshad the idea to take one of
these partsand make a work out of it. At this
time it was the beginning of IRCAM, and we
had a flautistwho was very eagerto experiment.
Therefore,I beganto studythe possibilitiesof the
flute. And then he died, and I wrote Memoriale
for a concert we had in his memory. Later I
developed the idea and technique of the inter-
action between flute and electronics.I took three
big formantsfirst - maybe I will do the other
formants, but I am less sure now because youcannot listen to a solo flute for an hour, or an
hour and a half. So I think these formants result
in a work which is perfectly homogeneous and
long enough for the time being.SM: Would hesuccessivemovementsccupyhe same
dimensions,hirteenofifteenminutes?
PB:VI will be quite long, but IV, III and II will
be much shorter.
SM: Yourformal thinking is very muchconcernedwith
theproliferationof material. ...explosante-fixe..., for
example,is builtfrom the tiling together f diverse
structurallocks, achwith theirowndefining harac-
teristicsuchas tempo, egisterrdynamics.fwetake,
say,TransitoireVII, andyoucome obeginheprocess
of composition,do you have no idea of thefinalstructuralhape that s tosay, is it aprocess f tilingwhichcanproliferatendefinitely or do you have a
conscious/subconsciouswarenessf thefinal lengthoftheworkas you begin?PB: Yes, more or less. When I decided to do
...explosante-fixe...or flutesolo, I adopteda method
which was very importantto me. I transformed
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Composern Interview: ierreBoulez 3
the flute solo for all the formants. They are all
ready. So therefore, if one day I want to take
one month, or two months, andjust do that, I
can do formantII or formantIIIbecause the text
for the flute is completelyprepared.I can modifythe text, for instance with some inserts,and with
other instruments. It is not a rigid text, but it is
there. And so I know approximately he number
of pagesalready!SM: The ensembleyou use is identical o that in
Repons. Howeveryou are knownfor consistently
developingewensembles ndtimbres.What edyouto usethe samegroupagain?PB: Because it is the group of Ensemble
Intercontemporain, and I wanted to establish
repertoirefor them. And anyway you can notice
that Repons s full of percussion and pianos and
so on, and on the contrary ..explosante-fixe...as
absolutely nothing of this kind. I wanted verymuch not to repeatthis use of percussiveinstru-
ments. The piano was the first nstrument I tried
with the electronics. With the piano, the sound
is comparatively easy to transform.And also if
you want to trigger something, the midi systemis very safe. You don't have to worry. The flute
was much more complicated. At the
beginningthe pitch detection systemwas working once in
ten times. Then we improved that quite a lot,and for now the flutesystem s very safe. I wanted
to insist on finding the solution for the flute.
Like I did recently for the violin in Anthemes2.
SM:In Transitoire V of ...explosante-fixe..., the
threeviolinsassumea greatermportance;ndeedyou
placethemtowards he top of the score,next to the
flutes. What edyou topromotehem n thismanner?
PB: I wanted each formant to bring out an
instrument or group of instruments. So youhave the two flutes in formantVII, you have the
three violins in formant V, although the two
flutesare stillvery important,and in Originel ouhave the cello solo, which is very important.
They distractthe attention from the flute. And
if I do other formants they will each have a
group of instruments with great importance, so
that attention is not completely focused on the
flute but on the contrary with the groups
becoming more and more important.SM:Thesu!faceexturesftheworkareoften xtremelydense, even wilfullyso. For example,at rehearsal
number in TransitorireV, thereare twotrumpets,eachplaying hesamepitches which oinciden rhyth-mic erms) ndyet theyarearticulatedquitediferently.Thefunctionof thisprocedures clearly o increasethe densityof the music.What is the roleof densityin thispiece?PB: I call this illusion.There are two kinds of
writing for a group. You can write a 'voice' for
an instrument, or you can do what Schoenbergand Webern did, that is, you have a voice and
then you change the timbre - a violin here, a
trumpetthere-
youknow,
klanfarbenmelodie.ut
the voice is still one voice, and I find that rather
limitingon the imagination.Forme, the problemis that you don't have any perspective. And the
perspective is interesting; if you have the same
basic text, but a differentway of conceiving it,and then you superimposeit. I use that also for
chambermusic, and also in Reponsquite a lot. It
happensmuch more in Notations it's based on
that practically!SM:I amfascinatedby the interactions etween he
flute, theensemble ndtheelectronics,nd it seems o
me thatthe ensemble nd the electronicsork owards
the same ends. They vary theflute material, hey
modify t, they analyse t, and therefore uring he
courseof the piece sometimesyou hear successive
variationsfthematerialresentedimultaneously.o
in onesensethe musicanalysestself.PB: I don't think differentlyfor electronics and
instruments.The methods areobviouslydifferent,but the way of conceiving the musical space is
exactly the same. Electronics are really an
expansionof the instrumentalworld. I can have
microintervalswhich areimpossiblewith instru-
ments, or, for instance,a change in the spectrumwhich would be otherwise impossible. I call that
transgression. ou transgressthe limits of the
instruments,but you don't replace the gesture,becausefor me the gestureof the instrumentalist
is really necessary.When I was younger I wrote
or conducted some pieces which involved
performing with tape. Then the performer is
blocked by being in synchronization with the
tape.So the
gesturewas not there
anymore.And
you know, the performerhas in front of him a
score with quantities- metresand so on - but is
there to distort the quantity, and to make a
gesture out of the quantity which brings other
quantities an accelerandoor crescendowith an
accent - brings some modification in the score.
But if you work with electronics you can onlywork with quantities, and then you have no
gesture. What is interesting about electronics is
the interaction of performer and technology -
when the gesture is modifiedby non-gesture.SM:Notwithstandinghe possibilitiesof electronics,
there renotnotatedmicrointervalsn thescore.What
areyourcurrent iewsaboutmicrointervalsn instru-mentalmusic?
PB: In instrumental music, I don't really trust
microintervals. wouldn't saythat it is connectedwith musicaleducationbecauseyou can respondthat eduction can be changed; but I think that
the instrumentsand fingersarenot suited. If you
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4 Composern Interview: ierreBoulez
y-noVtt
Loturtesy uJ univaV t l LUt LrLnLoanuurtL
tau.
are in the high registerof the violin, you alreadyhave microintervals!If you want to change the
tuning - with the piano for example - then the
tension in the stringsis not safe. I used that onlyin Pli selonPli with the harps. I had two harpswith microintervals,but it was only for a short
period of time. If you re-tune the harp in a dif-
ferent way, after a quarterof an hour the tuningis completely gone! Therefore, microintervals
have to be very precise, otherwise why write
them? With electronics you can do it either by
changing the spectrum, or harmonizing with
different types of chord - you can subtractby
any kind of interval.You canprepareyour scales,and can trigger something, or push a button, and
then you have a completely new scale, which is
absolutelyimpossible on instruments. Therefore
that is much more accurate and second, with
much more variety.SM: And how wouldyou comparehe harmonicroce-duresof your recentworks with your early music?
PB: I think I have more control now. SomethingI find difficult in a lot of Schoenberg, and with
Webern in the Trio,is the presence of a lot of
counterpoint without any kind of vertical
control. In Schoenberg, for example, you mighthave a horizontal of four pitches, and then a
chord of another four pitches, and that's
absolutely not natural. It's complementary, but
at the same time it is not harmonically comple-
mentary just because you decide that! With
Webern you find this also. In the SecondCantata,for instance, he tries to control the vertical
relationships.It was a very importantfirst.Even
in the Concertoop.24, you have only these three
intervals, and it always results in the same very
simple harmonic feature. It's much more refined
in the SecondCantata. For instance, the aria in
the bass (first movement), you have practically
always the same chord, but with different com-
binations of intervals. With Schoenberg, when
he reinstatesa kind of psuedo-tonality like in the
Ode to Napoleon,one finds the preoccupation of
how to combine harmonyand counterpoint;that
was also my problem certainly,and therefore in
Repons here are some placeswhere the harmonyis stronger hanthe counterpoint.But the counter-
point is there anyway. And in Sur Incises, t is
very obvious. You have an object, and then youcan deduce further objects, hearing them in
different ways, despite their complexity. You
hear the relationships through a big chord and
you hearthat, definitely. In the second half of
Sur Incisesyou have quite a lot of changing
rhythms which are moving, augmenting and
diminishingand so on; but the top note is always
the same. The chord changes but the noteremains the same, and you notice that immedi-
ately. Although you cannot listen to the detail of
it, you arecompletely guided by harmony.SM: Is it possiblethat your more recent harmonic
thinking s guided by the perception of harmonic
structures,whereas n your earlierwork you were
working n a muchmore heoretical asis?
PB:Yes, certainly, I benefited very much from
performing.Because I know what you can hear
and what you cannot hear.
SM: Youonce tated hat oneofyourcentral imswasto bringdownthe barrier etweencomposernd audi-
ence.How wouldyou assess...explosante-fixe... in
thisrespect?PB:This is a piece which I have performed, not
a thousandimes, but each time I performedit, it
was very well received! Especially the last one
which is very attractive,of course. VII is the most
difficult,or the most complex. V is alreadymore
simple and Originel s very simple. In Originelthe range of dynamic is completely reduced.
Consider the flute part- for eight minutes thereare only seven notes. I had thought that this
would be too long, but it actually works well
because the materialwhich goes with it changesthe perspective in which you hear the same
notes. And you also have the E flat which is
always present. In the other formantsyou have
a polarization between E flat and A, a kind of
polarization usefrequentlyas a contrastwhen the
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Composern Interview: ierreBoulez 5
harmonies are changing rapidly. Sometimes the
textures are changing rapidlybut the harmonic
structuredoes not change. You are puzzled by
the fact that it goes very quick and yet you heara static effect.
SM:And thefactthatyouareworkingwithgroupsof
say,sevenpitches,s notable.Theharmonicossibilitiesaregreatlyreduced incethe days whenpieceswere
consistentlyworkingwith thefull chromaticange.
Again,thismightbe connectedith the issueofpercep-
tion; he mindmore asily rasps harmonicframeworkwhichutilizessevenpitchesrather han twelve.
PB: For me, when you have all these polemicson tonality, 'back to tonality' and so on, that's
not importantfor me. What is importantis howyou can rely on your ear. There are two ways.Either you have the same function, or you have
an object you don't need to analyse any more.
For instance if you have a line with parallel
chords,the chord can be ascomplex asyou want.
If you have a parallel line like that, then you
immediately hear the result. But if you changethe chord each time, you don't know what to
follow exactly, because you have to analysethe
object, and then by the time you analyse it's
gone already.So you can never predict and youcan never remember. And that is the point where
you just give up.SM: You haveproduced 1999 version f Repons.Is this thefinal version?
PB:Repons s conceived as a spiral.It was alwaysconceived as a spiral.And I did not have time
last year, but next year I will have a twelve-
month sabbatical so I can work in IRCAM.
Since 81-84 the technology has changed enor-
mously, and I would like to use the technology
as of now. I still have quite a lot of sketches forReponswhich are unused! With the technology
you can do so much more than before because
the pitch detectionsystemis absolutely olid now.
And also the software is much more supple and
flexible, and can work completely independently
for all the instruments. In the 84 version, youhave a 'stupid' programme, let's say - but now
we have more 'intelligent' programmes.
SM: Over recent ears,scholarsuch asJean-JacquesNattiez and LawrenceKramerhave beensubjectingmusical texts to a muchwiderrange of analytical
techniques, angingrom semiotics ogenderstudies.
Wouldyou be interestedo read the resultsof such
inquiryntoyourown works?
PB:Yes and no! Because I am not especiallynar-
cissistic, and I am not interested in looking at
analysesof my own music. There was a periodin my life when I was constantly analysing,but
I could not stick it for very long. When I was
teaching I had to analysevarious works, and IanalysedWozzeck and Debussy's Etudes n greatdetail, but now I could not do that! I have the
samerelationshipwith my own work, but I have
always said that if people discover themselvesn
my work, then that is all right. I give permissionto publish anything.But reading them myself I
am less enthusiastic,I must say.SM: Can you providedetailsof any ongoing rojects?PB: I will first finish Notations. That's my first
worry,because the sketchesarethere, and I want
to get rid of it. I know what I want to do. Thereare five of them and I have seven still to finish.
SM:And a workfor Anne-Sophievon Mutter?
PB: Yes, that is also a futureproject.But it will be
an Anthemes 3. It is interesting to have an
Anthemes or solo violin, and an Anthemes with
electronics. And then Anthemes 3 will be the
same length I suppose but with orchestra this
time.
SM:Finally,doyouhaveany hopesorfears oncerning
thefutureof composition?
PB: I have no fears, really. But I am amazedsometimes that some people are so tired, and
thinking they are 'new' try to find all kinds of
compromise, using the oldest recipesof the past.I am surprised hat some people don't go further
thanreallytrivial oals.That I cannotunderstand.
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