icmuf. To if; I a rtit'TItX. ewarn, state©i

I X 4*1 till) K-t. L l l & . H V i m t You live in Durban ? — Ys*

J do.

You ere the sister of Melville Fletcher ? — 1 mm,

.a you know accused 2 ? — Yes I do.

was your brothtr detained in December, 1964 ? — I

co not remember the exact date.

Ho was released before Oecember, 1964 ? — 1 cannot

gey exactly.

But after his release did y u see accused 2 ? — I

met him on several occasions.

Let us start with the first occasion when you saw

hi*, can y«u remember in what year thet took place ? —•

1 cannot remeaber. 1 cen remember mstinc? ftr. Arenstein

the day my brother was detained.- I think that wee under

the tO-dsya. 1 bumpso into him in the street. My

brother was living with us at tfhlali, I think it was shortly

after he had been placed under house arrest I he had per­

mission to go end stay with my parents at Mhlali, and it

was ehortly after that, although 1 do not remember the

exact date, thAt they fetched him from ^hleli and he was

detained at Durban fcorth. 1 know I bumped into Hr.

Arenetein ehortly after th^t.

a here did y^u see Mr. Arenstein ? — I think it

was in front of the t .ft.-., we had coffee together. !

cannotremember exactly.

In Durban ? — Yet.

3id he ask you anything or put any request to you ?

— He esbd me how my brother was end if I knew the

reason why he had been detained. 1 could give him no

/...

342.

MRS. COETZEE.

no reaeon, I did not know myself.

Was that all that happened on that occasion ? — On

that occasion, as far as I can remember, yes.

Did you take any food to your brother ? — Yes, Hr.

Arenstein gave me some tinned food. He used to come to the

place I w«ked at, the Tower Building Society, and he gave me

sometinned food to take to him.

After that did you see Mr. Arenstein again ? — I met

him on a few occasions, yes.

!

Where ? — *e usually met in a tea room or a cafe.

Why did you meet him ? — My brother was still detained

and 1 just met him, it wae merely, 1 cannot remember the

exact reason} either Mr. Arenstein would ask me how my brother

was or if I had heard any news. It was merely just to enquire

after him.

HIS LORDSHIP j He wanted to enquire after your brother ? —

Yes.

MR. LIEBENBERG CONTD.t Now, when your brother was released

did hespeak to you?

(Accused 3 requ«£s adjournment - Eourt adjourns at 12,50 p.m.)

In Resuming at 2. *' p.m.

MR. LIEBENBERG CONTT). * Now, you say your brother was

released at the end of 1964 ? — Yes, 1 think it was

before Xmss,

And did he discuss his position with you ? — Yes, he

later on did, he took me into hie confidence*

343.

MRS. COETZEX,

And did you sue accused 2 as a result of what your

brother had sail to you ? — Yes.

what did you say to accused 2 ? ~ i told him that my

brother* Hr. Fletcher* was in a terrible quandary - he was

very depressed as there was every possibility that he would

have to give evidence against Mr. Arenstein ? 1 told Mr.

Arenstein that my brother was getting very depressed because

there was every possibility that he would have to give

evidence against Mr. Arenstein. That wee all at the time.

Did your brother want to go anywhere ? — He did not

kijiow what to do - he could not go anywhere. He thought the

best thinq would be to leave the country, and that I was to

leave itup to Mr. Arenstein to decide on something.

Mr* Arenstein had to decide on something ? — To meke

a suggestion, at any rate, to put his mind at ease. I dcrft

remember exactly what he said.

iiid you approach Mr. arenstein ? — Yes.

What did Mr. Arenstein decide or say ? — I don't know

whether he came to any decision on the first occaeion but he

said he had either to give evidence - vague evidence or ....

There were two things which were left up to my brother to

decide onu to try and lqave the country or to remain and

give evidence - vague evidence. I d o n’t remember if that

was the term...

HIS LORDSHIP* Is that what Mr. Arenstein said to you ? — Yes

MR. LIEBENBE3G CONTL'.r Did you discuss this question on oneIoccasion or on more than one occasion ? — There were a

number of occasions but nothing really ever materilaised.

Did you tell accused 2 whether your brother was willing

to leave or not willing to leave ? — Yes, I said he was

willing to leave.

/...

MRS. COETZEfL.

And did Hr. Arenstein say anything about any arrangement

or any possible arrangement ? — He did not aay much to me

about that, he just wanted to know where we lived and I gave

him a rough explanation but there was never any final

arrangement or anything further said.

But what was to happen one Sunday night ? — That if

he was to leave it would possibly be over a week-end or on a

Sunday.

where would he be met ? — I don't remember the exact

arrangements; I don't know whether there was an exact meeting

where was he to be taken to ? — 1 was not told.

was anything said about his appearance ? —* A disguise

was sugqested, but there was no particular disguise suggested.

,bo suggested this disguise ? — Mr. Arenstein.

iiiiheri you had these discussions wife Mr. Arenstein were

you living in Uurban ? — I think I had just moved into

town, not to begin with, I moved into town shortly afterwards.

Did you ever receive any money ? -- Money donated by

a friend through Mr. Arenstein. ""s=s‘-

How much ? — I think it was RIO.

Who gave it to you ?--- Mr. Arenstein gave it tome

to give to my brother.

Can you remember in what month that took place ? — I

am afraid I do not. Tut I think it was before my brother

was detained or taken away from Mhlali. I can't say.

MRS..COETZEE.

Why was this money given toyour brother ? — I don’t

know, I was given no reason.

Did Mr. Arenstein ever give you any books to read 7 —

Yes.

What books ? — The Grapes of *rath and a couple of

other books.

byThe Grapes of Wrath written/whom ? -- 'Ey Steinberg,

j What did it deal with ? — *ell ....

What was the main theme of that book ? — It dealt

with the inhabitants of Oklahoma - very poor peasant people.

Andwere they driven out of their properties by the

capitalists ? — Yes, more or less.

Dispossessed - was that the effect of that book ?-- Yes.

Did he give you any other book to read ? -- He gave

me a couple of books but I never read them - I never got down

to reading themf they were ehort stories. I do not even

remember the names.

Why did Mr. Arenstein give you books to read ? — I

d o n’t know. I think I may have asked him for something

to read.

Did you ever visit his house ? — Yes.

IWhy did you go to his house ? —- My brother stayed

at a flat quite closeby and 1 very often went to speak to

his wife, not for long, just to have a chat with her? and

I very often went to see my brother who stayed just closeby.

I

Now, did your brother give evidence in Mr. Arenstein*s

case 7 — Yes.

In Durban 7 — Yes.

What month ? — I do not remember.

Up to the time that he gave evidence was he in employmen

N o .

Did you convey messages from Mr. Arenstein to your

brother 7 — while my brother was living with my parents,

y#®.

And up to the time that your brother gave evidence in

court ? — Noj my brother moved back to Durban in March

end I never saw Mr. Arenstein after that.

346.

MRS. CQETZEE.

March of last year ? -- Yes.

Up to Merch, 1965 did you ever convey messages to

your brother from Mr. Arenstein 7 -- I woiLd notsay right upon

to the very end of March but I did **t a few occasions convey

messages to my brother.

To what effect 7 -- To the effect of him leaving the

country. Very often I did not really have much to say to him

because th re was never much to say to him, just to eccept,

to be prepared.

During that time of his release from custody until March

1965 when he left Mhlali did you pass any moneys on to

your brother 7 — Ho, I passed no money to him.<

How did he live 7 -- My parents more or less supported

him.

347.

HRS. COETZEE.

tflCS^-EXAiUN-mc* BY mh . A R f f ^ K I N i You know your brother

Melville and I had been great friends since about 1953/

1954 ? — Yes.

'*'• had been something like brothers ? — Yes.

Mnt: did he often stay with us, i.e. before 1 was placed

under house arrest ? — Yes.

And was he regarded ae a part of our family ? — Yes.

Did he also introduce you to us and did you often come

tjp see my wife ? — Yes.

You were also very fond of my daughters ? — Yes.

Andis it not correct that as far as anybcty was concerned

in Durban the person who was closest to me in any possible

way was your brother ? — Yes, that is so.

Not only were we politically in accord with one another

but we shared very many other interests as well ? — Ye*.

We discussed all sorts of things together ? — Yes.

And often you were at our place when we discussed

art, literature, records and music and so on ? — Yes.

Your brother was very fond of music ? — Very fond.

Do you remember yuur brother was banned - I cannot

remember exactly how many years ago, but he was banned

some years ago, and at that time he was working for the«Textile workers Union in Durban ? — Yes, 1 remember that -

it is a very long time ago.

And after ha was banned it was impossible for him to

carry on with his work and he went around looking for jobs ?

— Yes.

349 .

MRS. COE m i

And do you remember he used to get a job and then

perhaps after a day or two something would happen and he

would lose the job ? — Yes.

Your brother is a fluent linguist in Afrikaans,

English, Zuly and Xhosa ? — I don't think Xhoea.

And with those qualifications there were many jobs

available to him ? — Yes,

And in fact he got jobs with those qualifications

and after a few 4ys he would lose his job ? — That is

And is it not correct, he felt, whether right or

wrohg, that it was because of his political views that he

lost these jobs ? — Yes.

Mnd did that not cause him a great amount of depres­

sion ? — Yes, it always has.

*nd do you remember once he got a job as a supervisor

of African night watchmen ? — Yes.

i think they are called Zulu Guards of Durban. They

ere sent ell over Durban to watch premises ? — Yes.

And because he was such a fluent Zulu linguist he

got the job ?.— Yes.

And do you remember now hapy he was about this job ?

Yes.

But shortly after he got that job he was placed

under house arrest ? — Yes.

*hat happened to the job ? —- He could not continue

as it was nightehift, and hs was not allowed to take the

job on.

Ha lo* the job ? — Yes.

HRb. eOETZEt,

And did that not depress him very much ? — Yes, the

worst I had ever seen him.

At that time he was livint in a flat next to our flat?

—■ Yeei just behind it.

And he did not have any money at all ? -- No, he was

penniless.

And where did he live as it weie ? -- Your wife used

to send food over to him.

! And did it not depress him because he felt he could

not get a job and did not have a means of livelihood - did

that not keep on depressing hire ? -- Yes.

And finally he felt he had to do something and he

moved out to Hhlali ? — Yes.

And was he able to find a job there ? — No, not at all

In the meantime your father wee not well ? — He had ha

a very bad accideik and was out of work at the time.

And did this not also cause your brother further

depression because he was the oldest member of the family

and could not help the family because he could not get a

job ? — Y«is.

And it was not because he was incapable - because

he was very capable ? — Yes, but he was not given a chance

to prove himself.

And then suddenly out of the blue he was detained for

90-days ? -- Yes.

Then I came to see you to find out what had happened

to him - was I not always interested in your brother ? —

Yess and from time to time, if 1 remember correctly, you used

to enquire after him.

35i .

M8S. COETZEt

And your brother wae he not interested in my welfare as

well ? — Yes.

Not only my welfare ? — Your wife and children.

Whet wee hie feeling about my children ? — He

looked upon them with rather a brotherly affection.

%nd he was always waitinn for news from them ? —• Yes.

were there not friends of your brother in Durban

who felt that they ought to do emething for him because of

!his predicament and now and again they raised money for him

and things like thst and I would give it to you for him ? —

He said there were friends who had promised him money or had

promised to help him, and he said there was money due to

him from som&ody - I don't know how or where he received the

news or who told him but apparently there was somebody

who donated money to him, I don't know who it was. I

thought it was handed to you to give to him.

thile he was under 30-days was he not one day brought

to Mhlali by the Special Branch to get some books or

something and then he said either to you or your parents

that he had been detained because of a complaint laid by an

uncle of his ? — I remember the pert about the complaint -

about the reason for him being detained through an uncle

of minej 1 remember that clearly but 1 don't know when it

was, but I do remember that.

And did you not at the time tell him that you thought

that we* the reason for his detention - because of some

complaint by an uncle of his ? — Ye * , I remember that.

When' he came out of 90 days, in the beginning, ie it

not true that you did not tell rat that he had made a

statement because you were far too embarrassed to *11 me

that ? — That ie absolutely true, I don't remember ever

having told you that he had made s statement.

351.

M B S . COCTZEt.

That is correct. Ian t it also correct that at the

beginning you told we that he was terribly depressed because

(ej he had not been able to get a job and not able to help

his family and on top of that he was put away for 90-days end

he had not committed any crime or done anything that was

wrong - do you remember telling me that, and that he

was considering committing suicide ? — I can remember

my mother speaking to me about this? * was moi likely to

tell you about it because I was extremely worried about my

brother. My mother was extremely worried, apparently she

was afraid of him committing suicide - that is where I got

theidea from. I myself noticed his depression but I did

f»ot realise he had been driven to that extent of actually

cont e m p l a t i n g suicide.

And do you also remember that he felt that he would

never be able to get s job in South Africa and that he was

contemplating going overseas - do you remember telling me

that ? — He had alweys wanted to do that? ha had always

felt that that was the only thing for him to do because he

felt his future wes hopeless out here.

And so be able to earn joney to help his family ? -—

He always wanted to semi money home to my parents.

Especially after your father's accident ? -- Yes

that is true.

And did your father not have an accident while

your brother was under house arrest ? — Yes, my brother

had been placed under house arrest; he had teen placed under

house arrest 1 think just a few months, and my father met

with this accident shortly afterwards.

And did you not also tell me that the difficulty about

him going overseas woS thet he had not paid his tax for e

number of years and that he had applied for an exit permit

and had not been able to get one for that reason ? — Yes.

And in the beginning when discussing that *&h me

was it not from the point of view that he could not get

out of the country as he did not have the money to pay his

tax and he could not earn a living ? — Yes.

He was faced with the prospect of being under house

arrest and at any time he could be put away for 9f'-dayet

his future was absolutely black, ana he had to find some

way of getting overseas ? — Yes.

And was it not from thet aspect that we did first

discuss this question whether he should leave by some other

ftttins ? — I can remember discussing this with you. 1

cannot remember exactly when itwas, or the exact decision

we came to.

I am not talking about the decision but about how the

discussion first progressed from the point of view that

fee found himself in a hopeless position in South Africa and ha

could not get out of the country because he did not have

money to pay his taxes ? —■ Yes.

He was thinking of some other way of getting out

and did he not ask you to ask me for advice as to how

he could get out ? — Thet was the first thingyou came to

see me about after he came out of 9U~daye ? — That could

poesibly be true. He did however mention to me ... I don't

know at wt.at stage.

Do you agree that that is what we discussed ? — I

remember d i s c u s s m i that pert w±h you very well.

And didn’t 1 tell you that if he was contemplating

committing suicide it is probably because of the depression

of him having to be under 9U-days ? — Yes.

And that he should be given some time to recover from

the effects ofthe 90-days ? — Yes.

352.

mb. COETZEE.

353.

HRS. CDET2E E •

And thet probably he would then get over hie depression?

— Yes.

And did I not say to you, that just to pacify him, to

make him feel that things ere being dene, to say to to him

that some plane will be arranged to take him out some way,

end that he must just keep himself ready because perhaps

some Sunday night someone will come and fetch him ? — I

can remember you deciding to put his mind et ease on some

things, I remember very often I used to tsll him things to

put his mind at ease, just to try and atop him from worrying

e^bout everything for he was in a terrible state at the time.

And did I not say to him ... ta you, that there are

many friends who could possibly, if a message could be got

to his friends, they could collect the money to enable him

to pay his income tax and even get some money to take him

overseas ? — That is correct, I remember you saying that.

Uidn't you come to me afterwards end say to me * Look,

in the beginning I was far too embarrassed to tell you about

him giving evidence, but that you understood that he was

going to be celled to give evidence against me ? — He

must have spoken again to me about it because I remember at

first he was not sure if he would hsve to give evidence again*'

you. He did tell me that he had made a statement but I

myself was too embarrasead to tell you that for hie sake as

well as mine and it wes only when he was absolutely positive

that he would have to give evidence against you that 1 came

to you.

And also is it not true thet he said that his statement

againet me was a bit vague and there was nothing definite

against me - is that not where the word 'vague' came from,

not that 1 suggested thet his evidence should be vague but

that he thought his evidsnce was vagus ? — That is possible.

/.

354.

Hit S. CO£?Z£E*

And did I not say that X had no fear about him

giving evidence against me as long as he told the truth -

I did not mind hi® giving evidence against me ? — You did

not''seen to mind, but X thought perhaps you were being kind

and X did not know, but X realised that you did not object.

And did he not tell you that as far as he was

concerned I had not committed any crimes ? — Tea.

And I myself could see no reason at all why X

should object to him giving evidence against me ? — that

is true,}

And is it not the position that in the beginning

we had discussed the question about him leaving for

overseas bat that was because of his circumstances he

was placed in ? — X do remember that because of the

income tax he would not be able to leave legally because

of him not having paid his Income tax.

And then it is not that X passed messages on to

him but X was merely giving you advice which you could pass

on to him ? — ies, 1 did pass~IT"onT to him.

X don1t think I ever gave you any particular

message, it was more advice ? — Wo, you never told me

to carry anything back to my brother but I did.-

And nothing was actually done about taking him

out of the country ? — JJot nothing.

So arrangements whatsoever were ever aade ? —

Ihere were never any ... the arrangement* to me seemed

, extremely vague. At the time X thought that you were

extremely vague, X thought you wsre not particularly

interested; You seemed to say the same things over

again and we never actually got down to anything; there

were never any final arrangements made.

355.

Si!R3. C0iiT2£B.

fne arrangement was to put his Bind at rest for a

while ? — Yes, I sometimee used to just make up a few

things to say to him because he used to be waiting very

eagerly for me to ooaie back and tell him some thing.

In the end funds were raised for him from friends

in Katal ? — Yes.

md did they not pay hie income tax ? — Yes.

And did he then apply for an exit permit ? — Yea.

And did he get an exit permit ? — Yea, he did.

And was he due to leave for England ? — Cn the

Monday... I don't remember the exact date, but he was

arrested about 1 o'clock on the Saturday morning when

he was due to leave on that Monday.

Had your mother actually taken the day off to see

him off ? — Yes,

As far as you are aware, the evidence that he

gave in my case, was that the truth?

El i LQ s Would this witness know ?

ME, Aii£JIST-IH 3CKI2.J Ho, I will leave it at that.

Your brother had come back to Durban about March ? —* Yea,

with my parents when they moved out of the house they

had been living in. Yes, he returned to Durban in March.

And was he not destitute while he was in Durban ?

— Yes,

And was there anything wrong in friends contributln

money just to keep him alive ? — Kothing whatsoever.

ME. ZWAKEHST-Uls Ho Questions.

UiU LISD^NBEPva: Ho Re-2xamlnatlon.

B A E K H A V . ..

Collection Number: AD1897 ERNST, D and ARENSTEIN, RI and FINKELSTEIN, J, Trial records, 1966 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2013

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