(31& M ~--r · ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego...
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( , SUPREME COURT - STATE OF CALIFORNIA THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff-Respondent, vs. KEVIN COOPER, Defendant-Appellant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) -----------------------------------) SUPREME COURT NO. (31& M J.. '-I- J... FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE' San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787 REPORTERS' VOLUME 7, 1985, Pages 5798 through 8, 1985, Pages 5916 through 5915 6058 APPEARANCES: January January For the Plaintiff and Respondent: For the Defendant and Appellant: JOHN K. VAN DE KAMP Attorney General state of California 110 West "An Street San Diego, Ca. 92101 IN PROPRIA PERSONA ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego County Superior Court 220 West Broadway San Diego, California 92101
Transcript of (31& M ~--r · ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego...
~, ( ,
SUPREME COURT - STATE OF CALIFORNIA
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff-Respondent,
vs.
KEVIN COOPER,
Defendant-Appellant.
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
-----------------------------------)
SUPREME COURT NO. (31& M J.. '-I- ~--r J... FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY
HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE'
San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787
REPORTERS' TR~IPT
VOLUME 7, 1985, Pages 5798 through 8, 1985, Pages 5916 through
5915 6058
APPEARANCES:
January January
For the Plaintiff and Respondent:
For the Defendant and Appellant:
JOHN K. VAN DE KAMP Attorney General state of California 110 West "An Street San Diego, Ca. 92101
IN PROPRIA PERSONA
ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego County Superior Court 220 West Broadway San Diego, California 92101
1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA (Copy I
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
DEPARTMENT NO. 30
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
KEVIN COOPER,
Defendant.
HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
NO. OCR-93l9
------------------------------------)
APPEARANCES:
REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT January 7, 1985
For the People: DENNIS KOTTMEIER
For the Defendant:
District Attorney WITH: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney 1540 Mountain Avenue Ontario, California 91762
DAVID L. McKENNA Public Defender BY: DAVID E. NEGUS Deputy Public Defender 1060 west Sixth street Ontario, California 91762
ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters
COMPU~.ERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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FOR THE DEFENDANT:
COOPER, Kevin (Mr. Kottmeier)
INDEX OF WITNESSES
Direct Cross
5798
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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Redirect Recross
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
692 3 x 5 Color Photo Lang Bathroom
693 Large Brown Bag Clothing
693-A Orange Cap
693-B Orange Cap
693-C Strip of Denim (Headband)
693-D Green Terry Cloth Towel
693-E Strip of Green Towel
693-F Strip of Green Towel
693-G Jar - Hair Conditioner
694 Large Paper bag
695 8 x 10 Color Photo Diane Williams
Iden.
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COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. MONDAY. JANUARY 7. 1985 9:35 A.M ••
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THE COURT: Everybody, good morning. We all seem to be
present.
Mr. Kottmeier, you still have Mr. Cooper.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Morning, your Honor, morning, ladies and
gentlemen.
KEVIN COOPER,
called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been
previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Mr. Cooper, we have had placed on the board up here
Exhibit 3, the large photograph of the ranches near the house
that you hid out on.
When you carne across the fields that are to the
bottom of this picture, or would be next to the fence line of
the Lease ranch, were those plowed fields?
A. I don't know. It was at night.
Q. Well, could you feel anything as far as your
walking on top of them as far as sinking into dirt or ridges as
you walked along?
A. I don't know. I don't know. Th.ere was a lot of
rocks, a lot of ditches and things like that. I don't know if
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it was I don't know. It was rough.
Q. Can you tell where, approximately on this
3 particular fence line, and I'm indicating the bottom of the
4 picture, you came upon the fences of the Lease ranch?
A. Yes, I believe so.
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6 Q. I have got a red pen. And if you'd write "Kevin
7 Cooper" up here on the label, please.
A. 8 (Witness complied).
Q. 9 Would you indicate along the fence line where you
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came
sure.
upon
A.
Q.
it.
Somewhere in this area over here. I am not exactly
Would you just mark -- maybe generally write your
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14 name "Cooper" somewhere along that side of the fence line so we
15 have some idea about where you carne upon the fence.
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A.
Q.
(Witness complied).
And then, as you described it last week, you
18 followed the fence line on up to where you have written
19 "Cooper".
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you go over that nCoopern again in red, that
22 last one doesn't look like it showed up very well.
23 A. (Witness complied).
24 Q. Now, at this point where you arrive at ·Cooper n you
25 are on the outside of the fence; is that correct?
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28 garage.
A.
Q.
Basically, yes.
And you climbed over the fence to get to the
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A. No, I didn't climb over the fence.
Q. How did you get over the fence?
A. Each of these little fences has a little hole in
each fence, in each section. I just stuck my head through and
went through, that's all.
Q. You described also that you came out of the garage
maintenance room door.
A. Yes.
Q. You took a tour around the house.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you trace the route that you took on Exhibit
3-B, please, in red.
A. The garage door is right here.
A. (Witness complied).
THE COURT: Keep your voice up, please.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Up against the house like this. Like
that. And back on over here.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. You can resume your seat, Mr. Cooper.
Now, during the time that you made that particular
trip around the house you were looking in each of the windows,
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What lights could you see on in any of the homes
around the neighborhood as you looked into the hideout house?
A. At this particular time I was focusing my attention
on the hideout house.
Q. Didn't pay any attention to, for example, the Lease
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house right down here?
A. I don't known even if I could see it from the
particular angle where I was at.
Q. Well, the Lease house has an outdoor light over
this parking lot, doesn't it?
A. It is possible.
Q. In fact, it lights up the whole area around the
Lease house.
A. It is possible, yes.
Q. And as you walked around, did you see the Edwards
house?
A. I don't know.
Q. As you walked, did you see the Ryen house?
A. I don't know.
Q. During the time that you were walking around were
you paying particular attention not only to what was inside your
hideout house but the surroundings around that house as far as
security?
A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean
nas far as security"?
Q. In other words, you are interested in going into
the hideout house; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In addition to going into the hideout house, you
are interested in knowing what is around the house, aren't you?
A. I believe I had that general knowledge.
Q. And how did you get that general knowledge?
A. Coming up the side of the fences and stuff,
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1 basically. I mean, I am aware of kind of what's going on around
2 me, but not in detail what's going on around me.
3 Q. SO you knew that there were three houses right
4 around the house that you were going to use as a hideout.
5 A. No.
6 Q. During the time that you were inside the hideout
7 house you described how you looked out the windows; is that
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correct?
A. Yes.
10 Q. And in your looking out the windows your concern at
11 that time was personal safety.
12 A. You twist that out of proportion. I am not going,
13 for example, to say it like that, personal safety, no.
14 Q. You didn't want to be caught by surprise.
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A.
Q.
That's true, yes.
You wanted to find out what was going on on the
17 south side so that you'd get some warning if somebody came up to
18 the house.
19 A. Basically, yes.
20 Q. You were concerned with the movements and
21 activities of the neighbors to your hideout house.
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Neighbors that I could see, yes.
You could hear voices from the hideout house.
No.
Couldn't hear anything as far as calls, shouts?
No.
During the entire two and a half days that you were
28 at the hideout house?
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A. I don't believe so, no. 1
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Q. During the time in the evenings, after dark when
you would look out of the window, did you follow visually the
headlights of any of the cars in the neighborhood?
A. No.
Q. Did headlights ever attract your attention from the
hideout house?
A.
Q.
I don't believe so, no.
Did you hear any trucks or cars in that
10 neighborhood?
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Q.
It is possible, but I'm not sure.
While you were making your trip up to the house
13 from Chino Institution for Men, was there any moonlight?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Well, what I'm interested in is, did you see
16 shadows as you were walking in the dark?
17 A. I don't know. That was a year and a half ago. I
18 don't know.
19 Q. You described for us the Bilbia bedroom.
20 Which way did the sliding glass door open in the
21 Bilbia bedroom?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I believe this way.
You are indicating from the right to the left?
I believe so, yes. I am not certain.
That was an important thing to you, wasn't it?
Possibly, yes.
27 Q. .The reason it was important was because that was a
28 a very large sliding glass door.
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A. True.
Q. It is not the otdinary eight foot wide sliding
glass door, is it?
A. I don't know what a standard size door is, but that
was a large door yes.
Q. It literally went from one wall of the Bilbia
bedroom all the way across to the other wall of the bedroom.
A. Yes.
Q. SO that if you were trying to escape it would be
important to you to run to the handle of that door so that you
could open it and get out.
A. Not necessarily to the handle, no.
Q. Well, at least to that portion of the door that
would open.
A. The way I looked at it, all I would I have to do
was pull the drapes back and I would see the handle and just go
to it then.
Q. SO you made no preparation at all as far as
unlocking the door or planning your route to the door?
A. Well, I unlocked the door, but as far as planning a
route, no.
Q. Your recollection is that the door opens on the
right-hand side?
A. I'm not positive.
Q. Do you have any scars on your hands?
A. Yes, I have scars on my hands.
Q. A number of scars?
A. Scars here from playing basketball. That's from
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playing basketball, I believe, also. As far as anything else,
no.
Q. Did you have those scars before June the 4th, 1983?
A. No.
Q. You got them after June the 4th?
A. Yes. I got this one right here just playing
basketball at the County jail. I got this one while I was in
when I 'first came down playing basketball, yes.
Q. Here in San Diego?
A. Yes.
Q. Now the one that you have just pointed to on your
left hand is a healed scar.
A. Yes.
Q. On the top portion of the hand below the fingers.
A. Yes, right here.
Q. Do you have any other scars on your hands besides
the two that you've mentioned?
A. Yes, I have scars on my wrist, back of my hands
here, my wrist right here.
Q. Where did the scar to the heel of your right hand
come from?
A. Urn, I believe when I was in a car accident.
Q. And the scar to the back of your right hand?
A. I don't know.
Q. We have had marked as Exhibit Ill, a photograph of
Roger Lang seated on the fireplace with Vickie Lang.
As you look at the photograph, just to the right of
the photograph is the area where the the television was kept1 is
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that true?
A. No, not exactly.
Q. Where was the television kept?
A. Well, I'm not saying it is all this from my
recollection, but pictures I have seen of the Lease house.
There was a short wall here, then there's a window, then there's
a television in the corner.
Q. Well, that window virtually comes right up to the
fireplace, doesn't it?
A. It is possible.
Q. The window from which you can see the Ryen house.
A. It is possible. I know that now, yes.
Q. During the time that you were going back and forth
to the television, you had to walk right past the fireplace each
day; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. What did you walk past?
A. The couch. Well, I mean, the fireplace is in this
room. Say, in that room I would have to walk past the
fireplace, but, I mean, I wasn't walking right by the fireplace.
It is kind of a big room.
Q. There were no guns at the hideout, were there?
A. I don't know.
Q. The hatchet was the most deadly weapon that was in
the house.
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you recall in your testimony last week you
described for us how you were in search of hot water to take a
1 bath.
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Q.
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Yes.
And you, after some efforts in the Lang bathroom,
4 remembered that down the hall was the Bilbia bathroom.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you described that, I believe, you took all of
7 the items to bathe down to that Bilbia bathroom.
A. 8 Basically, yes.
Q. 9 Towels, soap, whatever items you wanted to take a
10 bath with.
11 A. No, I am not going to say I said all that. I don't
12 know.
Q. 13 You got down to the Bilbia bathroom and had you
14 found hot water in the shower you would have taken a shower
15 right then.
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Q.
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Q.
A.
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22 bathroom?
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Q.
I am not going to say right then.
Well, at some point in time?
Some point in time, yes.
Well, you had your clothes off.
Yes, I believe. I'm not certain.
Why not just take a sponge bath in the Bilbia
Because I wanted to take a shower.
Yes. But when you found that the shower did not
25 have hot water, the same as the bathtub in the Lang bathroom,
26 why not just take a sponge bath where you have got everything
27 available?
28 A. I don't believe I had everything available.
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1 Everything available was in the Lang bedroom. Bathroom, excuse
2 me.
3 Q. Well, in addition the Bilbia bathroom had available
4 your clothes in the next room, didn't it?
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A. Excuse me.
Q. The Bilbia bathroom was closest to your clothes in
the next room?
A. Yep.
Q. None of your clothes were situated in the Lang
bathroom.
A. No.
Q. Did you ever use the Bilbia bathroom for any
13 purpose other than to just to test the water in the shower?
14 A. No.
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Never took a shower.
No.
Never used the sink.
No.
Never used the toilet.
No.
21 Q. Yet that particular bathroom was closest to your
22 necessities in the closet of the Bilbia bedroom.
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Q.
Yes.
Is the only reason you are not using the bathroom
25 because we found blood in it?
26 A. Nope.
27 Q. Did you see any blood in the bathroom while you
28 were there?
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A. Wasn't looking for any.
Q. Did you see any?
A. No.
Q. Let's return a moment to the Lang bathroom.
Do you recall on Friday you were telling us how you
had put yourself in the bathroom after you saw Vickie Lang come
to the front door?
A. I was already in the bathroom.
Q. Well, but you'd come down to check to make sure who
was outside and went back down to the bathroom.
A. Yes.
Q. And in effect closed the two doors and put yourself
into the area of the toilet and the tub.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during the time that you were there, were you
armed in any way?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you were concerned about being able to
escape.
A. I was concerned about not being detected, as well
as escaping, yes.
Q. Well, you told us Friday that you had taken one of
the louvers and checked it and pulled it out and found out that
you could slide the louver out of that particular window.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Showing you Exhibit 691, Mr. Cooper.
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Isn't it true that that particular window has a
screen attached inside?
A. In this picture I see it, yes.
Q. You couldn't get to the louvers to test them unless
you took the screen off; is that correct?
A. Not at that particular time, no.
Q. Did you take the screen off?
A. No.
Q. In fact, that screen was screwed shut, there were
screws in it that literally had it tightened down so that you
couldn't take it off.
A. In this picture?
Q. Yes.
A. That's what I am saying, that is in this picture.
But that is not how it was. This picture is when you guys were
investigating.
Q. June the 4th.
A. I don't know when it was taken. So, anything is
liable to happen between now and then.
Q. Do you think that after you stayed in the hideout
house somebody went up there and put a screen on?
MR. NEGUS: Objection, calls for speculation.
THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Are you suggesting by your testimony, Mr.
Cooper, that someone put screws in that screen after you left
the house?
MR. NEGUS: Objection, calls for speculation.
THE COURT: No, overruled.
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THE WITNESS: I don't know what happened.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Did you makeup the portion about taking the louver
out of the window?
A. No.
Q. With the screen in place, screwed down, you had no
way out of that bathroom other than through Vickie Lang.
A. That's not true.
Q. What other way out did you have?
A. That window.
Q. Screen and all?
A. The screen wasn't there.
Q. After Vickie Lang left you said to yourself, it is
daytime and you can't leave. Do you recall --
A. Yep.
Q. -- that statement?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you further elaborated on that statement
telling us that there were people that were working down below
in the Lease ranch.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you step to Exhibit 3, particularly 3-B, and
with the red pen write "People" in the area where you saw the
people working after Vickie Lang had been in the bedroom.
A. At all places I saw people? Is that what you are
saying?
Q. Maybe you can just put some aX's" there or "P" for
people. Whatever is your preference.
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A. All right. Well, I saw people in this area here.
An "X" there. I saw people here. The truck right here, I saw
people in this area. And I know I saw people in some area over
here. I'm not exactly sure which area. Yeah. Over in here.
5 saw -- so I am not sure if it is here or here, but I do know I
6 seen people with horses in these areas over here.
7 Q. SO, basically, you are suggesting that the areas
8 where you saw people were further over towards the Lease house.
9 A. No. From this view, from this window you can also
10 see some sections over here, because I do remember seeing this
11 truck right here. It is a Ford, four-door truck. I remember
12 seeing that it was in this area here.
13 I also seen people around this area. I'm not sure
14 if that was at that time, the exact time I saw him.
15 Q. Would you circle the truck that you are talking
16 about.
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17 Did that truck stay the whole time that you were at
18 the hideout?
19 A. Urn, more or less. I saw it on more than one
20 occasion. But if it left or something I don't know.
21 Q. You can resume your seat, Mr. Cooper.
22 My interest in that truck is whether you ever saw
23 it move or whether it looked abandoned.
24 A. What do you mean "looked abandoned?" There were
25 people in that area.
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Q. Yes. But did you see the truck always in the same
place every time you looked out the window?
A. I don't know if it was always in the same place.
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Q. But as far as the fence line, to the side of the
Lease ranch, there is no one in the first section of corrals.
A. I don't know that.
MR. NEGUS: I don't understand the question.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Well, let me illustrate. You placed nX'sn in these
two areas. You have circled the truck, but in this section that
I am illustrating right here, no one was present.
A. I don't believe I could see that area.
Q. Certainly from the living room you could see down
the fence line.
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. In fact, you could see from the living room further
over past the fence line at the horne that is down off out of the
picture, couldn't you?
A. I don't know what all I could see. I don't know if
I could see that area or not.
Q. Could you see that also from the Bilbia bedroom?
A. It is possible. I mean, I don't know.
Q. You can see over the hills to the right from the
position. When I say nright n , I mean as you face down the hill
from the hideout house or as you face the diagram it would be on
the left. You could see off in these fields from those windows
that face the Lease, couldn't you?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, as far as you know at this particular point
in time, that is, when you are checking out the people for their
location, Virginia Lang may be corning back.
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It is a possibility.
Could be coming back for dinner.
It is a possibility.
Did you see her leave?
Yes. No, not see her.
Well, did you see the group leave?
What group?
The ones that were using the blue car or blue
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A. Well, no.
Q. You saw a blue car or blue truck up in front of the
hideout house.
A. I believe, yes.
Q. It left.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you visually follow where that truck went when
17 it left?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see the truck anywhere in the area when you
20 looked out the window after Virginia Lang left the house?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I don't know.
Weren't you concerned about it?
I knew it had left.
But you didn't know how it had left.
A. Well, the way I looked at it, I believe that there
was only one driveway down. It had to go that way. Where else
would it go?
Q. During the approximate eight hours that follow, did
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you repeatedly look out the windows to see if it was free for
you to come down and continue your escape?
A. I am not going to say it like that, no.
Q. You weren't concerned about getting away from the
hideout house then, were you?
A. Well, the way I looked at it was I was planning on
leaving at night so I wasn't worried about leaving in the
daytime. That's why I continued to look out the windows to see
if anybody was going to come up.
Q. What was it about leaving at nighttime that was so
attractive to you?
A. I knew that when I came up it was real dark and the
chance of somebody seeing me was virtually nil because it is
pitch black out there. That is why I figured I'd leave at
night.
Q. Regardless of the danger that existed as far as
Virginia Lang or someone else coming back to the house?
A. Well, I had been there that long and I didn't see
any reason to rush.
Q. Where did you smoke your last cigarette in the
hideout house itself?
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't recall at all?
A. Like I said, that was a year and a half ago. I am
not sure, exactly sure on details a year half ago.
Q. You had the Role Rite tobacco with you.
A. Yes.
Q. And as far as the smoking of the cigarettes, you
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had the Role Rite tobacco when you left the hideout house.
A. No.
Q. You ran out?
A. Yes.
Q. Any reason why you left the Role Rite then in the
lid of the box in the bedroom?
A. Possibly because I ran out of papers also.
Q. During the time that you were at the hideout, did
you ever see three Mexicans?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever see three white male adults?
A. It is possible. I mean, I don't know. I seen
people from a distance.
Q. We have marked Exhibit 692, for the record, a three
by five color photograph.
Mr. Cooper, looking at that photograph, would you
circle the prison issued tennis shoe footprint. You see that in
the photograph?
MR. NEGUS: Objection, that assumes a fact not evidence
that it is a prison issue tennis shoe.
THE COURT: Describe it otherwise, please.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Would you circle the tennis shoe impressions that
you see in the photograph.
A. I don't even know if I see a shoe impression. I
can cricle a shoe impression, I am not going say it is tennis
shoes or what kind of shoes they are.
Q. You see more than one shoe impression, don't you?
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A. Yes, I believe I do.
Q. In fact, there's three or four in that particular
picture.
A. I see one whole one, part of another one and I
don't know if there is anymore. I can't tell.
Q. Would you circle those that you see?
A. (Witness complied.)
I see a piece of another one.
Q. Showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 487,
visually the impressions that you see in that photograph are of
the same type of pattern as present on the sheet in blood,
aren't they?
MR. NEGUS: Objection. That's argumentative. Mr.
Kottmeier can have other people handle that kind of thing. It
has nothing to do with Mr. Cooper's testimony. It's beyond the
scope of direct as weli.
THE COURT: Overruled. I don't find it so, Mr. Negus.
Go ahead.
THE DEFENDANT: I can't see any print. I see marks. I
don't see any print.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Indicating for you the section that has been --
A. Can I see the picture, please.
Q. Sure.
A. Yes. I see some of the same things on the sheet
that I see on this here, yes.
Q. Yesterday -- Excuse me, skipped a couple days.
Friday you recall we had been talking about
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5818
Saturday, June the 4th, and we'd gone through a number of your
activities.
What was the last thing that you did on Saturday,
June the 4th, while it was still daylight in the Bilbia bedroom?
A. Probably put the clothes that I had planned on
leaving in.
Q. You say probably you worked with the clothes; what
physically did you did with the clothes?
A. Put on clothes.
Q. Put on clothes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now when you say the clothes that you planned on
leaving in, which clothes are you talking about?
A. Army pants, white shirt with the multicolors in
front with the zipper, tennis shoes, socks, you know.
Q. What other activities did you do in the closet
besides sleep? Here I'm putting on the board Exhibit 44.
A. Besides what?
Q. Besides sleeping, what other things did you do
inside that clothes closet?
A. Nothing. That's what I was in there for, to sleep.
Q. Nothing else except to sleep?
A. Basically, yes.
Q. Never made a phone call from within the closet?
A. No.
Q. Using the phone in the headboard of the Bilbia
bedroom?
A. No.
1
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5819
Q. In fact, you never used the phone in the headboard
of the Bilbia bedroom?
A. I don't remember if I did or not.
4 Q. Did you smoke any cigarettes inside the closet?
5 A. It's possible. I believe I did, that's why I used
6 that little black cap as an ashtray. I believe so, yes.
7
8
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14
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Drink inside the closet?
It's a possibility.
Sit inside the closet and think about plans?
I don't know if I did or not. It's possible.
How many times did you open the closet doors that
are in front of the bedding pictured in Exhibit 44?
A. Well, I know for sure I closed them that night and
opened them that next morning, that's two. I'm not -- I don't
15 know.
16
17
18
Q.
A.
Q.
Can you give us an approximation?
Two, three, four, maybe, I don't know.
What efforts did you take to wipe your fingerprints
19 off of the closet doors?
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
None.
Were you wearing gloves?
No.
23 Q. During the time that you were inside the closet you
24 had the doors shut?
25
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A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that more than once?
A. No. When I went in and went to sleep I stayed in
there till that next morning.
-~,
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5820
Q. In the closet itself we see in Exhibit 44 the three
blankets, the pillow and the belt.
Which place did you actually put the pillow? Where
was the pillow when you went to sleep?
A. I believe I slept with my head down at this end
closest to the doorway, if that's close to the doorway.
Q. Meaning closest to the hall?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were inside the closet can you
describe how it was that without any clothes on you rolled
yourself up in the blanket?
A. Just like you do in a bed.
Q. Well, did you have the closet doors shut as you
attempted to put the blankets around you?
A. I believe what I did, but I'm not certain, is while
the doors were open I might have laid one blanket out such as
you would do a sheet, put the other ones kind of like laid out
so I know basically where they were and got in, closed the doors
and covered up.
Q. Also in that closet at that time you had clothing
with you?
A. It's possible.
Q. Where did you leave the clothing, or did you leave
the clothing in a pile outside the closet?
A. I don't remember where, not exactly, no. I don't
remember.
Q. Within the closet you also had the green bag with
the yellow handles or not?
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5821
A. I don't know if I took it in with me or left it out
in the room. I don't know right now.
Q. Still on Saturday, June the 4th, I believe last
Friday we had gotten within our movements throughout the house
to the pOint of your making a telephone call to Diane Williams
at about 8:00 o'clock in the evening, 7:53 according to the
telephone records. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. We've gotten so much green on there, let's shift to
a new color for this point in time.
Would you write a "No.1" in red on 5-L in the area
of the telephone that you used to call Diane William?
A. I don't know which phone I used.
Q. Could it have been the one in the headboard?
A. It's possible. It's possible I could have used the
other one I don't remember right now.
Q. Well, now, the headboard telephone is a little more
distinctive than the telephone over by the stove, isn't it?
A. What do you mean by distinctive? They both
telephones.
Q. True, but to get to the headboard telephone you
have to open the headboard and take it out?
A. Yes.
Q. And as far as a place to sit down, you can't sit on
the counter, you just have to sit on the floor?
A. Yes.
Q. Or open the closet doors and go inside the closet
and sit inside the clothes closet as you talked?
5822
.1
. 2
A. I didn't do that, but I guess that's a possibility •
.3
4
Q •
you used
kitchen?
As far as you know then you have no idea whether
the phone in the headboard or the phone out in the
5 No. A.
Q. 6 Yet this is your last phone call?
7 Yes. A.
Q. 8 This is the phone call that you're going to tell
9 Diane Williams where to send the money that she has gotten?
10 A. If she had had it, yes.
11 Q. Well, then let's write a nNo. In at the headboard
12 and a nNo. In over by the stove. Because we are not sure you
13 might put a question mark next to each one.
14
15
16
17
A.
Q.
A.
(Witness complied.)
I'd like to clarify something if it's possible.
What is it that you want to clarify?
At that particular time I wasn't going to tell
18 Diane where to send the money if she had it, I was going to tell
19 her to hold it.
20 Q. Even though you just said that you were going to
21 tell her where to send it?
22 A. I didn't know where to tell her to send it. That's
2.3 why I clarified it.
24 Q. Clarified it after you realized you made a mistake
25 in your story?
26 A. No, not a mistake in my story, just that I'm human
27 and I make mistakes.
28 Q. What is your plan at this pOint in time when you've
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started to
A.
leave.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
time?
A.
5823
make your phone call to Diane Williams?
Just basically wait until it gets dark enough to
And where are you going?
Back down the hill.
Where?
To Mexico.
What other part of the plan did you have at this
Q. 11 All you're going to do is go down to Mexico and
12 have Diane Williams hold money for you?
13 A. I wouldn't say it in those terms like that, but
14 basically, yes.
15
16
Q.
A.
What other parts to the plan were there?
There wasn't -- You making it seem like it was a
17 real set out thought out plan. It wasn't no plan like it was a
18 conspiracy. It wasn't a conspiracy. You making a mountain out
19 of a molehill.
20 All I did, you know, was tell the girl if she had
21 the money just hold it for me and I will be back in touch with
22 her, tell her where to send it to me at a later time.
23 Q. But you are staying up at this hideout house and
24 you don't have any money on you?
25
26
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Money wasn't a concern at that time.
Not at all?
No.
How are you going to get back in touch with Diane
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5824
Williams to tell her where to send the money if you didn't have
any money?
A. Call her collect.
Q. Where were you to get the money to make the phone
call?
A. I don't believe you have to have money to call a
person collect. Pick up the phone, tell operator you want to
make a collect call.
Q. You really weren't concerned about money were you,
you could steal it?
A. Yeah, but it's always, you know, nice to have
somebody to fall back on just in case.
Q. Well, knowing that then, you had gone through every
drawer within the hideout house to try and find money, hadn't
you?
A. I'm not going to say I went through every drawer,
no.
Q. Did you look for money?
A. It's possible I looked for it.
Q. Do you know or don't you?
A. I don't know. It's possible I did. It's possible
I didn't. I didn't see any. If I had seen it I would have took
it.
Q. Did you look for addresses?
A. No.
Q. Did you look at mail?
A. No.
Q. Did you look for a map?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
2
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3
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Did you look for weapons?
No.
5825
4 Q. When you made your phone call to Diane Williams to
5 tell her to hold the money, what light did you use?
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
I don't know.
Did you have any light?
I had my cigarette lighter, still had the
9 flashlight. I mean, I don't know if I used any light at all.
10 It wasn't necessarily dark out. It was getting dark, so. I
11 mean, I don't know.
12 Q. As far as you know at this time you did not use
13 your lighter nor the flashlight?
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with.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I don't know.
Which hand did you dial it with?
Probably my left. That's the one I normally dial
And what phone number did you dial?
At this present time I don't know.
Did you know it from memory at that time?
No.
Had it written down?
Yes.
The phone call lasted about 34 minutes?
Lasted awhile, yes.
Ending around 8:30?
By the ~ecords it says that, so I would have to
28 agree. I don't know, you know, at that particular time how
5826
long, what time. 1
2 Q. While you talked to Diane Williams on the phone did
3 you smoke?
4 A. I don't know. Somewhere in there, in that
5 particular time I ran out, so I don't know. I don't know.
6 Q. Well, smoking is important to you, isn't it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you go around inside the house and find a
9 partially smoked Viceroy and smoke that while you talked to
10 Diane Williams?
11
12
A.
Q.
No.
Did you take that partially smoked Viceroy after
13 you finished, crush it and put it in a tissue or napkin inside
14 the headboard?
15
16
A.
Q.
No.
Never had your lips touch the Viceroy cigarette
17 that we've had here in court?
18
19
A.
Q.
20 threaten her?
No. All I smoked was Kool's and Role Rite.
During the conversation with Diane Williams did you
21 No. A.
Q. 22 Did you threaten to hurt her if she didn't get you
23
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money?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No.
She disappointed you, didn't she?
No.
She didn't have money for you, did she?
She said she didn't get it at that particular time,
rnMPrT'l'F.RT7.F.n TRANSCRIPT
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5827
to call her back in a day or so. That's why I called her from
Mexico.
Q. Did you give her ideas and suggestions as to how to
get money?
A. You don't have to do that with Diane. She knows
how to get money.
Q. Did you suggest that she should contact your
mother?
A. So as far as that, yes.
Q. Did you talk in terms of having her contact Val --
A. No.
Q. -- to get ahold of your mother?
A. No.
Q. During the conversations with Diane Williams, did
you make any suggestions as to where you were at?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Did you tell Diane Williams what your plans were?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell her when she would hear from you next?
A. No. She told me when to call her next.
Q. And when was that?
A. In a day or so.
Q. Did she say what time?
A. No.
Q. During the two-and-a-half days you spent at the
hideout, had you ever dialed Diane Williams phone number and not
been able to get through?
A. It's a possibility I dialed it and she wasn't home.
1
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4
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Did you or didn't you?
I believe I did.
When?
The first time I called Yolanda, I believe
5828
5 somewhere in that area, I believe I tried to get Diane and there
6 was no answer.
7
8
9
Q.
Williams?
A.
How many times did you try and reach Diane
Well, that night I called and didn't get through.
10 Then I called her the next morning and got through. Then I
11
12
13
called her Saturday night. That was it.
Q. Diane Williams and the money that she could offer
you were important to your escape or completing your escape,
14 wasn't she?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The reason that you were waiting around is so that
17 you could try and find some money before you left the particular
18 hideout that you were in?
19 A. No~
20 Q. After you hung up the phone with Diane Williams,
21 what was your plan at that time?
22 A. Wasn't a plan. It's what I did.
23 Q. What was the first thing you did after you hung up
24 the phone?
25
26
27
28
A. First thing I did was probably check the light, you
know, as far as outside to see how dark it was, then I changed
clothes.
Q. Did you go to each of the windows windows to check
5829
1 around the outside?
2
3
4
5
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
Which window did you go to?
I don't know, just checking to see how dark it was.
After you checked to see how dark it was, what was
6 the next thing that you did?
7
8
9
10
11
12
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
13 out of?
14
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17
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
18 underwear?
19
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just
A.
Q.
taken
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Changed clothes.
Where?
In the Bilbia bedroom.
Would you write n2 n in that area.
(Witness complied.)
You say you changed clothes. What did you change
Army pants, the white shirt, yellow tennis shoes.
And what did you put on?
Prison clothes.
In putting on your prison clothes, did you save the
What do you mean Rsave n ?
Well, did you put that with the clothes you had
off?
No. I believe I kept that on.
What about socks?
No. I took those off.
Put those in with the other clothes?
Yes.
During this particular time, did you put your
28 prison tennis shoes on?
rnM'PnrrRRT7.Rn TRANSCRIPT
5830
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were they still wet?
3 A. Maybe a little down inside the sole, but not on the
4 sides.
5 Q. What about the jacket, was it wet?
6 A. Parts of it were -- it wasn't real wet, but it was
7 like kind of damp, yes.
8 Q. Did you put the jacket on?
9 A. Yes, after I put the blue shirt on.
10 Q. The blue denim shirt?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What about the prison T-shirt, did you put it on?
13 A. It's possible I already had it on. I mean, I'm not /---
14 certain.
15 Q. Well, isn't it true, Mr. Cooper, that the white
16 T-shirt left up in the closet was your prison T-shirt?
17 A. No.
18 Q. After you put your clothes on, what was the next
19 thing that you did?
20 A. Picked up the bags and left.
21 Q. Did you do anything as far as taking additional
22 items when you picked up the bags?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You've been on the telephone now with Diane William
25 for over half an hour; is that correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Quickly looked out the window to see if .it was
28 dark?
C'OMPTTTERJZED TRANSCRIPT
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5831
A. Basically, yes.
Q. Changed clothes, picked up the bags, and then you
walked where?
A. Out of the house.
Q. Would you trace the route from No.2 that you took.
A. (Witness complied.)
Q. You can resume the seat if you'd like.
You did that without checking the windows to make
sure there was no one outside waiting for you?
A. Well, the way I looked at it, if there was anyone I
would have seen them at those three windows there, if there was
anybody out front, so I didn't see anybody, didn't hear anybody.
Q. Well, you spent all day in that house because you
were concerned about people down the hill at the Lease (sic)
house?
A. Yes.
Q. You spent a half an an hour on the telephone.
You'd looked out the window just to see if it's dark, and you
don't care if those people might still be down there working
with the horses?
A. Yes, I care, but it's dark.
Q. SO, you didn't look to make sure, for example, that
the ClM guards weren't waiting for you down at the bottom of the
hill?
A. No, not the ClM guards, no.
Q. Didn't take any efforts to look from any of the
other windows before you picked up the clothes out of the
bedroom and walked out the front door?
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5832
A. I felt certain that there was no one out there. I
could have been mistaken, but I felt certain no one was there.
Q. Certain enough that you were willing to move out of
the safety of the hideout and down the hill without making any
check from any of the windows available to you?
A. More or less along those lines. I'm not going to
say in your exact words.
Q. Referring your attention to Exhibit 78, is this how
you left the lid that you caught the Role Rite tobacco debris?
A. What do you mean is it how I left it? I don't
understand your question.
Q. If you will speak up, please. Is that how you left
the lid in the closet?
A. In that exact position, I don't know; but as far as
the tobacco in it, yes.
Q. Well, all I'm asking is basically, is this how you
remember seeing the lid the last time you saw it?
A. I don't remember exactly how I saw the lid. I
mean, that wasn't nothing but a lid with tobacco in it. I had
no concern for that thing at that particular time.
Q. 582-A, that's about the same amount of tobacco as
what was left in the box?
A. I don't know. This is kind of spread out. This is
in all one closed in area. I couldn't say. I don't know.
Q. You didn't leave any Role Rite tobacco somewhere
else in the hideout, did you?
A. Well, I know I rolled some in an orange ashtray. I
used it to catch some, so it was a possibility it was an orange
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8
ashtray.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
9 watched TV?
10
11
12
A.
Q.
A.
5833
Well, did you empty that ashtray after you used it?
I shoved it under the couch.
In the middle bedroom?
Not in the bedroom, no.
Which couch?
The couch in the living room.
So you sat on the couch in the living room and
I did, yes.
When was that?
In the daytime. I'm not sure if it was on Friday
13 in the daytime or Saturday in the daytime, but one particular
14 day I know I did sit on the couch and use the orange ashtray.
15 When I got done I slipped it under the couch like, you know.
16 Q. When you watched television in the middle bedroom"
17 where did you sit?
18 A. Different times, sometimes I was on my knees,
19 sometimes I was sitting on the couch.
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
In
In
No.
Oh,
You
the middle bedroom?
the living room.
I'm asking now about the middle bedroom.
okay.
moved the television out of the living room and
25 into the middle bedroom?
26
27
·28
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Where did you sit?
In the chair.
(YlMPTJTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT
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13 / --.',
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5834
Q. Which chair?
A. It was a soft cushiony chair.
Q. That faced the door to that bedroom?
A. It didn't face it at that particular time. I
turned it to face the door, yes.
Q. In regard to that particular ashtray that you're
describing that was under the couch, how full of cigarette butts
tobacco and so on was it?
A. I don't know.
Q. There wasn't enough roll Role Rite tobacco in that
lid, was there, to even make one cigarette?
A. Well, I've seen guys in jail make cigarettes out of
less tobacco than that if they wanted to smoke bad enough.
Q. Up towards the top of the closet you've seen the
photograph of the glass and the spoon, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that where you last saw the glass and spoon?
A. It's possible.
Q. Did you have anything to drink after your
conversation with Diane Williams before you left?
A. After?
Q. Yes.
A. No, after, no, sir.
Q. Did you have anything to drink just before your
conversation with Diane Williams?
A. Urn, I don't believe so, no.
Q. The rope that was present in the closet and is
pictured in Exhibit 79, did you use that to try and put a string
c.nMPTlTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
4
5835
1 through those sweat pants?
2
3
4
5
14
15
16
17
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
Never saw the rope before?
No.
Never came across it in any of the other rooms,
No.
You never touched the rope?
No.
And it was not in the closet when you left?
No, it wasn't.
The belt that's pictured in Exhibit 77 across the
No, sir, I didn't.
Didn't see it left on the blankets when you left?
No, sir, I didn't.
Did you make any efforts to clean up after yourself
18 before you left?
19
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
What did you do with the closet doors?
You mean as far as leaving them open or closed?
Yes. Did you put all of the things that you were
23 leaving behind inside the closet and then shut the doors so the
24 room would look empty?
25 A. I don't know if I shut the doors or not. I mean,
26 at that particular time I wasn't concerned about none of that.
27 I was leaving.
28 Q. Never saw a button on the floor ••
1
2
3
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
5836
No.
Never saw a hatchet sheath on the floor?
No.
Never touched the hatchet sheath?
No.
Approximately how long did it take for you to get
7 finally packed up and change your clothes?
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
was
and
A. Basically I was already packed. All I had to do
just change clothes.
Q. When had you packed?
A. Sir?
Q. When had you packed?
A. As I told you, on Friday after I found that green
yellow bag I just put the clothes inside of it.
Q. So, all of the clothes that you were taking out of
16 that house fit into the green and yellow bag?
17 Yes. A.
18 And the white plastic bag you just stuffed in there Q.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
also?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Stuffed in where?
In the green bag with the yellow handles.
No, sir.
What did you do with the white plastic bag?
Carried it.
What was in it?
When? What particular time are we talking about?
As you left the house?
The Army pants and stuff that I took off.
rnM'DrtrrF.1H 7. F.n TRANSCRI PT
1
1
2
3
Q.
A.
Q.
4 handles?
5
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
5837
Just that one change of clothes?
Yes.
Everything else is in the green bag with yellow
I believe so, yes.
Within that green bag are tennis shoes?
Excuse me?
Within the green bag that you're carrying are
9 tennis shoes?
10
11
12
13
14
15 gloves.
16
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22
23 fence?
24
25
26
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Tennis shoes are in the white plastic bag?
Yes.
You have black leather gloves?
I don't know what color the gloves were but I had
Brown leather gloves?
I had gloves, yes, two pair.
Do you know which pair you wore?
Not offhand, no.
When did you put them on?
Probably when I got to the fences.
Before climbing the fence or after climbing the
Before going through the fence, probably.
Before?
Yes.
You had a pair of sweat pants.
Yes.
~nMpnTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5838
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9
Q. How many other pair of pants did you have in the
10
11
12
green bag?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I donrt know. Four or five. I donrt know.
How many shirts did you have in the -
Same.
-- green bag? Four or five, possibly more?
Possibly, less, I am not sure.
A towel?
I donrt believe I had a towel, no.
Washcloth?
No.
MR. KOTTMEIER: This would be a convenient time, your
13 Honor, for a break.
14 THE COURT: All right. We will take the morning recess.
15 Remember the admonition, please.
16 (Recess.)
17
18
19
THE COURT: Mr. Kottmeier.
20 CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)
21 BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
22 Q. Mr. Cooper, removing from Exhibit 634 a white
23 patterned shirt with a solid white back and zipper in front.
24 Do you recognize that shirt?
25
26
A.
Q.
Yep. This is one I had on.
Thatrs the one you changed out of to get into the
27 prison clothes?
28 A. Yes.
5839
1 Q. Additionally, in 634, is a blue type of Polo shirt.
2 Do you recognize that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that one of the shirts that you took from the
5 Lang bedroom?
6 A. Yes, I believe so.
7 Q. That you also took from the house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Also a pair of what appears to be gym shorts. Do
10 you recognize those?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did those come from the Lang house?
13 A. No. These are Owen Handy's.
14 Q. Those are Owen's?
15 A. Yes. He gave them to me on the boat.
16 Q. From Exhibit 631 a kind of red or maroon sweater.
17 Do you recognize that?
18 A. Nope.
19 Q. Never see it before?
20 A. I believe it is Owen's, I'm not positive. Didn't
21 come from the Lang house.
22 Q. Within Exhibit 633 there is a rose colored towel.
23 Do you recognize that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did that come from?
26 A. Out of the blue bag that I found out the island. /-~---
27 Q. The white colored towel?
28 A. Yes. This was in the blue bag, also.
1
2
3
Q.
A.
Q.
Neither one came from the Lang house?
No, sir.
Exhibit 105, a pair of pants. Have you had a
5840
4 chance to look at these?
5
6
A.
Q.
7 fit you.
Yes.
Those are a pair of pants that in the waist would
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
A. Yes.
Q. Now, these pants, when you wore them, were they
tight? Did they fit just right? What?
A.
Q.
A.
That particular time they fit.
Do you know which closet Exhibit 105 came from?
Urn, let me see them.
No. In fact, I didn't even take the hem out of
15 these. The hem is still in them.
16
17
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Forget to take the hem out?
I didn't forget, just didn't.
Are they about the right length?
More or less.
And of course the sweat pants that we have talked
21 about before, Exhibit No. 117, those were in the green bag when
22 you left.
23
24
25
26
27
A.
Q.
green bag?
A.
Q.
28 removed.
Yes.
Did you put the long pants, Exhibit 105, in the
Yes.
Exhibit 119, you have seen those .pants with the hem
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
5841
Yes.
These are a pair of pants that you wore.
Yes.
Were they in the green bag also?
Yes.
Is that about the right size?
Yes.
Exhibit 168 are the green olive drab colored army
9 pants that you've talked about earlier.
10 A.
11 Q.
12 you left?
13
14
15
16
17 knife.
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yep.
Did you put those into the white plastic bag when
Yes.
Are they about the right size for you at that time?
Yes.
And you let the hems out of these pants with the
Yes.
Exhibit 110, the Costa Rican T-shirt. Was that in
20 the green bag?
21
22
A.
Q.
Yes.
Exhibit 109, the tan colored shirt. Did you put
23 that in the green bag?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These two shirts that we have just talked about,
26 110 and 109, carne out of the closet in the Lang bedroom.
27
28
A.
Q.
Yes.
Belonged to the Langs?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
And you stole them.
Yes.
5842
1
2
3
4 Q. Exhibit 107, a button pattern gray type of shirt.
5 Also from the Lang closet.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Also taken out of the hideout house in the green
8 bag with the yellow handles.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Exhibit 118, a pair of levis with corderouy type
11 pockets on the back. Do you recognize these?
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, I believe so.
Where did they come from?
I don't know.
Are they yours?
No.
Did you take them out of the Lang house?
A. It is possible.
Q. Well, on the front of it you have some of that red
type of paint, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you wear those pants while painting the boat
23 down in Ensanada?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know where they came from?
26
27
A.
Q.
I believe the Lang house.
Another pair of pants you didn't let the hem out of
28 with the knife in the bedroom.
,..,.\&1 'OrTm'C'o T ,,'C'n mo Jl.. ", C ("0 T 'Om
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5843
A. True.
Q. In addition to these items that we bave just ~hown
you, what other items did you have in the green bag or the white
bag as you left the hideout?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Were there any other clothes?
A. It is possible.
Q. More pairs of pants.
A. It is possible, I don't remember.
Q. More shirts?
A. It is possible.
Q. With these particular items, though, you had the
two pairs of gloves.
A. Yes.
Q. Any other kinds of things other than clothing that
you took that were either in the green bag, the white sack or
any way that you were carrying items?
A. No.
Q. At the hideout house, you left behind hygiene.
A. Yes.
Q. Your personal hygiene, that is something that is
important to you, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And the items such as the deodorant, toothbrush,
toothpaste and so on all were left in the Lang bathroom.
A. Yes.
Q. Also you left behind at the hideout a flashlight --
A. Yes.
1
2
3
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8
9
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16
with
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
socks.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
17 hideout --
18
19
20
21
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
22 matches.
23 A.
24 I don't know.
25
26
27
28
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
in the closet.
I left it, I am not sure where I left it at.
You also left at the hideout a comb?
Yep.
Didn't have a comb with you when you left?
No.
At the hideout, there was socks.
5844
I don't know. I had socks so I wasn't concerned
You had one pair of socks?
Socks -- one pair, yes.
At the hideout you left behind underwear.
Yes, I had underwear.
You had one pair of underwear.
Yes.
But there were other pairs available at the
It is a possibility.
that you left behind.
It is a possibility.
Additionally, at the hideout house you left behind
I had a lighter so I wasn't concerned with matches.
Lighters can malfunction, can't they?
That one didn't. But, they can, yes.
Food?
Yeah, I left food.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Didn't take any at all with you.
No.
water?
No, didn't take any water.
There was water of course at the hideout.
Yes.
5845
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 Q. And bottles, plastic or otherwise, that you could
8 have carried water in.
9
10
A.
Q.
11 hideout.
Yes.
Additionally you left the blankets behind at the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In fact, they were left the same way as when you
14 had gotten up that Saturday morning.
15 A. I'm not going to say that exact same way, but in
16 the closet, yes.
17 Q. Left the pillow behind.
18
19
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
You had no money_
No.
No hope of getting money in the immediate future.
I knew it was a matter of time before I got some
23 money. That wasn't my concern.
24 Q. When did you change your mind about going to Los
25
26
Angeles?
A. First of all, Los Angeles was just a possibility,
27 and I guess that exited my mind after I talked to Yolanda, and
28 she told me that it was a good chance at that time elM officials
--~--------- --.-~~-~-~
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5846
would probably come to L.A. looking for me.
Q. When did she tell you that?
A. When did you talk to her on the phone?
Q. In the long conversation.
A. At the Lease house that night, first night I got
there.
Q. When did you give up the thought of contacting your
unnamed friends in Los Angeles?
A. Urn, never really gave up that thought, just
postponed it.
Q. How long were you postponing it?
A. I don't know. Indefinitely.
Q. You changed your mind about Los Angeles after you
14 killed the Ryens and Chris Hughes, didn't you?
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. No, sir.
Q. After you left the Chino Hills you had to get
further away from that than just Los Angeles.
A. Excuse me, I don't understand.
Q. After you left the Chino Hills you had to get
further away from the murder than just going to L.A ••
A. I didn't kill anybody.
Q. When you came out the front door with the white bag
and the green bag that had the yellow handles, was the lights
still on out front?
A. Which light?
Q. The one by the garage.
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, did you take any efforts to hide from the
5847
1 light as you came out the front door?
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Urn, basically, no.
Stay in the shadows along the front of the house?
I stayed along the front of the house, yes.
Excuse me?
I stayed in front of the house, yes.
Did you stay in the shadows?
I don't know.
Did you walk across the driveway over to the fence
10 between the first and second opening in the fence or the second
11 and the third?
12
13
A.
Q.
I don't know which one, just one of them.
And came out in the same general area as you have
14 already written ftCooperft on 3-B?
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
about
along
come
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
the
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
the
A.
If I may go to the diagram before I agree with you.
More or less, yes.
Would you take the red pen and trace your path.
From where to where?
From where you left off. You stopped right here
garage door. Did you go in the garage again?
This is two particular times you are asking me --
All right.
-- to trace my route.
Let's bring another line out the front door and
side following your route.
All right. Let's -- the front door about here,
out and come down to the end of the house, looking around
28 here, come out and stop at the driveway, look down the driveway.
3
1
5848
Q. Then what? 1
2 A. After I looked across down the driveway down this
3 area here, I went back over here and outside.
4
5
6
7
8
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Then where did you go?
Right about this area like that.
Did you continue on past the end of the fence?
It is a possibility, but I don't know how far.
Mr. Cooper, at this particular point where you
9 crossed the fence, as you look away from the hideout and look
10 straightaway from the fence, what do you see?
11 A. I don't know from this diagram. Fields. I don't
12 know. But that particular time, I don't know.
13 Q. Would you resume your seat, please.
14 I have now placed on the board Exhibit 1 with
15 overlay I-A.
16 You traced your route in blue on this particular
17 exhibit earlier, you had traced the route that you had escaped
18 from prison in red.
19 When you stood right here, and you looked over, you
20 could see the Carbon Canyon road that I'm indicating on the left
21 side of the diagram, couldn't you?
22 I don't know. A.
Q. 23 Could you see cars with headlights coming along
24
25
26
27
28
this
the
road?
A.
A. I don't know.
Q.,.~ On I-A would you trace your route after you left
house.
"~"-, 1
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5849
A. All right. Well, when I got to -- all right. All
right. I believe the driveway to the Langs is right in here
somewhere, and when I got to th~ top of the driveway I looked
down and that is when I believe I saw street lights down below,
like on this street here.
Basically what I did is when I came out, came down
this way, I had to go around this way, across the creek -- I
believe that might be the creek right there -- and the reason
why I did go around was because there was a ranch or a barn or
something right there, and I did see lights in this particular
area here.
So, when I got to this road, after I got across the
creek I rechanged the clothes, got to this road, what I later
learned was Peyton Road, crossed over by this building right
here and came around the front of the building and peeked down
probably maybe this street here, and seen a -- went straight
down and came around this building here, and back in the field,
came on down here.
Now, I believe, I am not sure, certain, this might
be the fire station right here. Come around the front of the
fire station, come out on the road. I don't know, somewhere the
freeway is right up in here. I got up on here. So it must have
been about right here, somewhere in there, I am not sure,
exactly sure. I can't tell from the diagram.
Q. Would the plastic -- would you write nKevin Cooper n
in red.
A. (Witness complied).
Q. You can resume the stand.
1
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8
9
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12
5850
From the front window of the hideout, and by "front
window" I am talking about the living room window, you can
literally trace the fence line all the way down to the road that
you are talking about. You can literally see where the fire
station is, visually just look all the way in the straight line,
can't you?
A. It is -- might be a possibility, but I am not going
to say for sure. As a matter of fact, I don't even believe I
noticed these street lights set up in that straight line like
that until I was in the driveway leaving. That is what caught
my attention, the way they were in the straight line like that.
Q. Well, the one concern you had, almost more than any
13 other, as far as immediate concern, was you are going to have to
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
go back across the creek; is that correct?
A. I mean, it wasn't no real life -- how can I say --
real important concern, it was just something that I had
acknowledged; I knew that I was going to deal with.
Q. Well, you acknowledged it to the extent that you
changed your clothes.
A. Yes.
Q. You used that as the explanation why you take a
pair of leather gloves.
A. Not just the creek in itself, the whole hillside
was the reason why I took the gloves. Not just the creek.
Q.
A.
Two pairs?
Yes.
27 Q. Afraid you might wear them out between the hideout
28 house and the bottom of the hill?
1
2
3
4
5851
A. As I stated before, they were flimsy little gloves;
they could tear real easy.
Q. In looking out of the hideout house you can see
that if you follow the fence line down you don't have to cross
5 the creek, do you?
6 A. At that particular time I didn't know the area. I
7 didn't know how far the creek went, which direction it went. I
8 didn't know.
9 Q. In fact, in talking about the creek, it drys up
10 before it even reaches the fence line over there along the same
11 direction as Eucalyptus, doesn't it?
12 A. Not the part that I went through, that was wet, was
13 water.
14 Q. During the time that you went through, how much
15
16
water was in the creek?
17
18
19 here.
20
21
A. May I show you?
Q. Certainly.
A. It wasn't real deep, but it came like, maybe like
Q. You are indicating about mid-calf.
A. Maybe not the mid-calf, a little lower. As far as
22 exact, I do not know exactly, but I came around this area here.
23 Q. In walking through the creek, how many steps do you
24 have to take in the water itself?
25
26
A.
Q.
I don't know, I didn't count.
Well, did you make it with only getting one foot
27 wet or did you to have get both feet wet, step by step through
28 the creek?
2
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5852
A. All right. Some parts of the creek were wider than
others. The part that I went through I still had got both feet
wet, yes.
Q.
clothes.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
After you get to the other side, you take off your
After I get up on some dry land, yes.
And change your clothes?
Not at first.
What did you do first?
Dried the bottoms of my legs off where I got wet.
With what, the shirt?
blue denim shirt?
That's the prison shirt.
Yes.
After you dried your legs off, what did you do?
Rechanged clothes.
Right out there in the field?
Yes, it was dark.
Well, cars making the turn off of Eucalyptus onto
20 Peyton would shine their lights across that entire field,
21 wouldn't they?
22 A. I don't know.
23
24
25
26
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Didn't concern you?
No cars in the area that I could tell.
Did you check to make sure there were no cars?
Not just cars, but anything in particular. I mean
27 people, animals.
28 Q. You are still hiding at this point.
1
1
2
3
4
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6
7
5853
A. Basically, yes.
Q. And you are hiding to the extent that rather than
walking close to the one ranch house you walked across the
creek.
A.
Q.
A.
For personal reasons, yes.
What personal reasons?
Well, since that I didn't know what kind of
8 neighborhood I was in, that everybody I saw was white, and I
9 know, sometimes out here in California a Black man walking in a
10 neighborhood they have a tendency to stop and question him and
11 take him to jail. Therefore, I was being kind of careful, yes.
12
13
14
Q. Well, do you have any strong feelings as far as
race is concerned?
A. Nope.
15 Q. During your time out there in the field changing
16 your clothes, what did you do with the green bag with the yellow
17 handles?
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Just set it down.
Also put the white bag down?
Yes.
Sat down, changed your tennis shoes?
No.
Did not change tennis shoes?
Didn't sit down.
Did it standing up?
Yes.
Untied the wet tennis shoe strings standing up?
I'm not going to say like squating down, yes. My
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5854
butt didn't hit the ground if that's what you're asking.
Q. At all during the change of tennis shoes did your
fanny touch the ground?
A. No.
Q. While you were doing that or after you took off the
wet tennis shoes you put on socks?
A. After I dried, yes.
Q.
A.
And did you that standing up?
Yes.
Q. In fact, you never once sat down after crossing the
creek until you got in the car?
A. What car? I got in a van.
Q. Well, into the van?
A. I believe it's safe to say that, yes.
Q. You changed, or put the socks on, put the tennis
shoes on, the ones that you'd stolen out of the Lang house out
of the garage; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And continued to sneak along past what is now The
Church of the Latterday Saints at Eucalyptus and Peyton, a big
building?
A. Big building.
Q. Careful to avoid any light in that area?
A. Well, I couldn't avoid all light. There were
street lights. They illuminated the area. But I tried the best
I could to say out of the lights, yes.
Q. Well, to avoid the street lights you walked, out
into the field and walked parallel to that road that had the
5855
1 homes on the far side?
2
3
A. Not all the way in the field, but I did manage to
stay off the street and back a few feet off cause the street
4 lights were only on one side of the street.
5
6
Q.
A.
How far off of the street did you walk?
Let's see, say the street is that table right
7 there, possibly about where I am.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Maybe 15 feet, 20 feet, in that range?
However this distance is.
You don't like to hike, do you?
Excuse me?
You don't like to hike?
What do you mean?
To walk long distances, hike?
Sure, I like to walk.
No problem for you at all?
Besides my foot sometimes being sore.
Well, that foot that you're talking about hadn't
19 had any attention during the two months that you had been in
20 prison, had it?
21
22
23
24
25
26
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28
in
the
A.
Q.
the Los
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
hideout
Urn, basically, no.
Hadn't had any attention during the time you were
Angeles County Jail?
I don't think that's true.
Was it hurting you?
At what point in time are we talking about?
When you are escaping, when you're coming out of
house and down the road, across the creek.
rnMpnTRRT~Rn TRAN~CRTPT
5856
1 A. No. I had soft-soled shoes on, so it really wasn't
2 bothering me, no.
3 Q. What did you do with the wet clothes after you
4 changed?
5 A. Put them back in the bag.
6 Q. Which bag?
7 A. The white bag.
8 Q. Tennis shoes as well?
9 A. Yes, sir. Excuse me.
10 Q. And jeans?
11 A. Prison clothes I had on, yes.
12 Q. But yet you wore the jacket?
13 A. I don't believe I wore the jacket, no. /--
14 Q. You did not wear the jacket?
15 A. I don't believe I did.
16 Q. Did you put the jacket in the white plastic bag?
17 A. I believe so, yes.
18 Q. With the wet prison tennis shoes?
19 A. I believe so, yes.
20 Q. And the wet prison pants?
21 A. I believe so, yes.
22 Q. What else was in the white plastic bag at that
23 point in time?
24 A. The blue shirt, put that in there.
25 Q. Blue denim shirt?
26 A. Yes. Basically all that was in the white bag was
27 prison stuff.
28 Q. Nothing else?
5857
1 A. After I took the Army pants out, the white shirt
2 out, the socks, and the other shoes, urn, no, I don't believe ~so.
3 Q. You're not carrying anything like the jacket or any
4 other items of clothing across your arms as you're walking at
5 this point, are you?
6 A. No. They are in the bag.
7 Q. Either in the green bag with the yellow handles or
8 the white plastic bag?
9 A. Well, at one particular point in time that green
10 bag had a yellow shoulder strap just like it had yellow handles,
11 so I put it over my shoulder. At some point in time, maybe
12 weight from the bag, whatever, it ripped. But at that
13 particular time, the shoulder -- the shoulder bag -- shoulder
14
15
handle part of it worked.
Q. All I'm concerned with at this pOint in time is
16 that all of the clothes that you were carrying were either in
17 the green bag with the yellow handles or the white plastic bag
18 or you were wearing them.
19
20
A.
Q.
Correct.
And you only wore one set of clothes at a time; you
21 didn't put two pairs of pants on two shirts and so on?
Q. 22 Now, you walked along that road till you get to the
23 What do you do at the fire station? fire station.
A. 24 Basically stop, look and listen.
25 You're concerned now, aren't you? Q.
A. 26 Urn, I wouldn't -- yeah, basically I'm concerned,
27
28
yes.
Q. This is law enforcement?
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5858
A. At that particular time I didn't know what kind of
building it was.
Q. Well, what was it that caused you to stop then and
look and listen at the fire station?
A. Well, the fact that when I got to the building it
had lights on in the front of it, and other than that it was
just a building.
Q. Well, how long did you stay there looking at the
fire station?
A. After listening and looking and not really hearing
anything or anybody or seeing anybody, not long.
Q. Couple minutes?
A. I don't know how long it was.
Q. What route do you take around the fire station once
you've spent the time looking at it?
A. Around the front.
Q. Then where do you go?
A. Basically to the street.
Q. Can you describe the street?
A. Yeah, it was the same street I had been following.
Q. What do you do after you've gone a little bit
further past the fire station?
A. Well, the road kind of like a little S into it, so
I went around the little S.
Q. Then what?
A. Maybe went up a little -- a little rise or, I don't
know the exact terminology for it, but .it was a little something
or other, and there was the intersection.
I"'''UnnmI:1DT f71:'n mD J\ ~'c!"DTnm
5859
1 Q. How long have you spent from the time that you hung
2 up the phone with Diane Williams to the time that you arrived at
3 this point in your travels?
4 A. How long did it take me to get like say from pOint
5 A to point B?
6
7
8
9
10
11
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes?
I don't know.
Hours?
I don't know.
Describe the
Okay. Well,
I don't have a watch.
intersection?
before I actually got -- All right.
12 Well, what I later found out was Eucalyptus was the street that
13 made the S, but there was another street, I believe, that turned
14 off or met it, and then there was the intersection and another
15 street that went the opposite direction. And then right across
16 the street from a where I was standing I could see like a wash
17 or -- like that thing I had to climb over when I first went
18 across the freeway when I first escaped. I saw a sign that says
19 71. I'm not sure if it said north, south or just 71.
20
21 lights?
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
25 know, yes •.
26 Q.
This is a traffic controlled intersection with
I believe so, yes.
Sidewalks and curbs?
I don't believe there was sidewalks, but curbs, you
And in that particular area this is the busy road
27· that you talked about during your trip up to the hideout house
28 that you had to wait some period of time so that you could have
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5860
all the headlights disappear and make your way across?
A. Yes, when I first escaped, yes.
Q. Yes. Now, that is the only major road that you had
crossed during your escape, isn't that true?
A. No.
Q. What other roads had you crossed, major roads?
A. Well, when first I got out of the institution there
was a major road. I believe it's this road, right here was a
major road.
Q. That's the one that goes right by the front of the
11 prison?
12 A. Well, not being smart, what you say major roads,
13 basically, yes.
14
15
16
17
Q. And you're standing on the corner of that
particular road waiting for cars to come by?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first car that comes by you ask which way
18 is Mexico?
19 A. I'm not going to say the exact first one, but I did
20 ask someone, yes.
21 Q. How did you stop him?
22 A. Stopped at the light.
23 Q. So, you walked up to him while he is stopped at the
24 light?
A. Didn't have to walk up to him. Where I was 25
26
27
28
standing, the road was right next to me.
Q.
A.
You're no longer hiding at this pOint?
No.
5861
1 Q. Well, what caused the change? How all of a sudden
2 are you able to corne out and stand on that busy road and walk up
3 and start talking to people?
4
5
6
A. Well, the way I looked at it, first of all, I was
no longer in prison clothes, even so, I had some in the bag.
one other than myself knew they were in there.
7 And second of all, my appearance had changed. I
8 had shaved my partial beard off, my moustache, rebraided my
9 hair. I'm quite sure somewhere in history I wasn't the only
No
10 Black man with two bags to be standing there hitchhiking. So I
11 was looking at all that.
12 Q. But yet up to this point in time you don't even
13 want to see a single human being?
14 A. Well, I wasn't in a residential district at that
15 particular point in time. I didn't want to see anyone in a
16 residential district, no.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q. Just a stone's throw from where you're standing is
afire station, isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. They had would have police bulletins1 they'd know
you were an escapee?
A. I don't know. Fire people are supposed to be
fighting fires not looking for escaped convicts.
Q. SO here you are on a Saturday night at about, what,
10:00 or 11:00 o'clock at night?
A. I'm not sure on the time. I know it was Saturday
27 night, yes.
28 Q. Standing out asking which way is Mexico?
,...,..,. ... T'IIor,.rnnn or r7"1"'\. Iftn 'A ... ,r-rtn T nm
3 /~
1
2
A.
Q.
5862
Basically, yes.
After having walked almost a half a mile back
3 towards the same place that you were trying to escape from?
4 A. Yeah. But I didn't know it was a half a mile. I
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didn't know, you know, where it was.
Q. You certainly didn't go away from the institution
when you walked down the hill, did you?
A. To put it like this, at that particular time after
I had walked down Eucalyptus I was advised that there was, what
I referred to as a freeway right there. I didn't know where I
was going basically. So when I got in and there was a freeway,
I mean, as far as I was concerned, that was just what the doctor
ordered.
Q. Despite the fact that just two nights before that
15 you waited until there were no headlights before you even went
16 across that road?
17 A. Because I had on prison clothes then.
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
So, it's just the difference of prison clothes?
My facial appearance, my hair.
In addition you're standing in that particular
21 location asking which way is Mexico?
22
23
A.
Q.
What's so unusual about that? Yeah, I did it.
Did anyone say, ·What do you mean? What do you
24 mean, Mexico?"?
25
26
A.
Q.
No.
Did the man that you asked the question of look a
27 little bit surprised that someone would be asking where Me_xico
28 is over in Chino?
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5863
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. And, in effect, you're telling us -that the man just
pointed down the road and said, "Just keep ongoing down this
4 road."?
5
6
7
8
9
10
A.
Q.
Basically that's what he did, yes.
Did he laugh as he left?
A. No.
Q. SO, after he points down the road it's time for you
to hitchhike; is that correct?
A. Well, I had asked him was he going that way. He
11 said, no, he was turning.
12 Q. SO, at this pOint you put your thumb out?
13
14
A. I'm not going to say at that point in time, but
somewhere after there, yes.
15 Q. And you're standing on a corner that intersects
16 with about two other roads?
17
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19
20
21
22
23
24
A. I don't know exactly how many roads, but I'm
standing there, yes.
Q. Cars going back and forth?
A. Somewhat, yes.
Q. No chance for to you get out of the way if a CIM
parole car comes by?
A. No.
Q. Standing on the corner, bags in hand, looking for a
25 ride to Mexico?
26
27
28
A. No. I sat -- well, I set the bags on the ground,
but basically, yes.
Q. And yet just a little bit up the road here you had
5864
1 to stand out in a field to change clothes and then make this
2 Curved course just to avoid even seeing a person after you had
3 changed clothes?
4 A. Basically, yes.
5 Q. Did you figure as you stood on the street corner
6 with your thumb out that your escape of was complete?
7
8
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11
12
13
14
A. Well, I looked at it, my chances of getting away
were better than what they were when I started.
Q. Didn't make any effort to hide?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
At that particular time?
Yes.
Urn, when I was standing out there, no.
How long did you wait for a ride?
Could have been 45 minutes1 could have been an
15 hour. I mean, I'm not positive on times.
16 Q. A long time?
A. It wasn't -- I'm not going to say extremely long,
no.
Q. How many cars passed during the time that you were
17
18
19
20
21
22
waiting for a ride?
A. Quite a few cars passed.
Q. Did you ever change your position on the street
23 corner?
24 A. How do you mean change my position? I don't
25 understand.
26 Q. Move from one corner to another; move up the road,
27 down the road, to the other side?
28 A. No, but I'm not going to say I stood perfectly
still like a statue either.
Q.
A.
You stayed in the same general area?
Basically, yes.
5865
1
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3
4 Q. And after some period of time a van comes by and
5 gives you a ride?
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Urn, yes.
How many cars stopped before the van?
Well, first of all, I didn't stick my thumb out at
9 every car that went past, but maybe one, two others. I'm not
10 positive.
11 Q. And what prevented getting a ride from those one or
12 two others?
13 A. They weren't going the way I was headed.
14 Q. You told each one of them that you were headed
15 towards Mexico?
16 A. I might have said south to Mexico or Mexico or
17 south, something like that. I'm not exact sure on my wording.
18
19
Q.
A.
Never said "San Diego"?
No.
20 Q. SO, as you had -- or as you're standing their the
21 van pulls up to the stop light and how is it that you get a
22 chance to get into the van?
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. I just asked him.
Q. While they are stopped at the stop light?
A. More or less, yes.
Q. SO, more than using your thumb you're literally
asking the cars as they come up to the stop light, aHey, can you
give me a ride to Mexico?"?
"- I
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5866
A. Not necessarily. I wouldn't always say, "I'm gOing
to Mexico." I meant, which way are you headed. I could have
asked, "Which way are you headed? I'm going to south." So, you
know, give me a ride that way.
Q. SO, even more than standing on the corner or
talking to people as they come by?
A. Some people, not all people.
Q. How did you separate out those that you talked to
from those you wouldn't talk to?
A. Type of cars that they drove.
Q. What type was it that you talked to?
A. Well, for example, I wouldn't expect somebody
driving up in a Rolls Royce to give me a ride, or somebody
driving a van or a Volkswagen something like that, my chances
with them was better than with a Rolls Royce or Cadillac.
Q. How many Rolls Royces did you see?
A. I'm not going to say I saw none. I'm giving you an
example.
Q. Yet the first person you talked to was driving a
Cadillac convertible?
A. I'm not saying Cadillac convertible. I'm saring
convertible.
Q. What kind of convertible?
A. I don't know, but it wasn't something that would --
how can I say -- give my doubts about asking them. I mean, some
people you just don't ask certain things. You can look at them
and tell.
Q. During this particular point in time then there at
4
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5867
the stop light, you say, "Hey, are you going to south? Are you
going to Mexico?" whatever, and they say, ·Sure," --
A. Basically, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
-- "get in."?
After she opens the door, yes.
She opens the door?
A. She reaches around, unlocks the door. It's a
sliding door and out of the van, and I get in.
Q. SO, she opens the door?
A. She unlocks the door. And how do I say it, she
reaches back, unlocks the door, more or less pushes it a little
bit, I push it the rest of the way open and get in.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Then who shuts the door?
Probably me. Yeah, it was me.
And then you ride with this couple how long?
Like I said, on times, I didn't have any watch and
17 time was the least of my worries so I really couldn't tell you.
18 Q. And you're let off on some freeway somewhere in
19 Southern California?
20 A. At an off ramp I believe, yes.
21
22
23
24
25 that.
26
27
28
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
You have no idea where that off ramp is?
Yeah, I kind of got an idea.
And you now begin hitchhiking on the freeway?
Yes, because I didn't know it was illegal to do
Well, you know that now?
Yes.
During the time that you were driving with this
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5868
couple you never saw anybody else hitchhiking, did you?
A. From where I was seated, I didn't see much of
anything.
Q. A fast way to direct attention to yourself is
walking along the freeway looking for a ride?
A. I don't know. See, back east you can do that. I
mean, out here I just didn't know.
Q. Well, in your efforts to get to Mexico, how many
cars stopped on the freeway that you talked to before you got a
ride?
A. In the van?
Q. No. No. You had gotten out of the van now we are
on the off ramp; how many cars stopped for you that did not give
you a ride before you got a ride?
A. Probably none, that's why I started walking.
Q. How long did you walk?
A. Then again, I don't know, just walked, towns --
Q. Hiked along the freeway?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Hiked along the freeway?
A. Yes.
Q. No effort to conceal yourself?
A. Basically, no.
Q. Is your escape complete at this pOint?
A. Well, put it like this: Every step I take the
happier I got, so I mean, basically, yes.
Q. SO, at some point in time you get a ride from
someone else?
~. I
5869
I A. Yes.
2 Q. And he drives you all the way to San Ysidro?
3 A. That's where he was headed, yes.
4 Q. Well, how did you ask this person for a ride?
5 A. Probably, which way you were headed.
6 Q. And he said --
7 A. Probably said, "San Ysidro." And I said, "Is that
8 near Mexico?" And I said -- I believe he said, "That's right
9 next, right across the border," something like that. So that's
10 how it happened.
11 Q. And so this man gives you a ride all the way down
12 to the bus station at San Ysidro?
13
14
15
16
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
Right to the bus station?
It's possible, yes.
Where is the bus station in San Ysidro?
17 A. I know it's on a corner, and right down the street
18 from it are stories, and I don't know. Basically that's all I
19 knew.
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
Ysidro?
Q.
A.
Q.
How far from the border?
Smack dab almost just across the ramp, not too far.
Can you see the border from the bus station in San
A. I don't know if you can see the border, but you can
see the ramp.
Q. While you're at that particular location you
realize you don't have any money?
A. True.
f" I
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5870
Q. And to handle that particular problem you steal a
purse?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you watch your victim before you ran
up and stole the purse?
A. Oh, I don't think it was a long period of time.
Q. Did you watch her?
A. I'm not going to say I did or I didn't. I don't
9 remember. I just know that I watched the purse, yes.
10 Q. Did you stalk here?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you move into a position and shift that
13
14
position so that you had the best advantage?
A. Well, I put my bags in my right hand, and if that's
15 what you want to call switching positions.
16 Q. Ran up and grabbed her purse with your left?
17
18
19
20
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22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
Pull her down?
No.
Knock her down?
No.
Did she scream?
It's possible.
Did you hear her scream?
I don't know.
Did you hear anybody chase you?
No.
Did you look over your shoulder to see what had
,._ ... _ ...... __ ... _ ............. """" 'Jl .. '~,...T"!IoT,....1TI.
5871
1 happened to your victim after you grabbed the purse?
2 A. It's possible I did, but I'm, you know, I had the
3 purse, so I don't know.
4 Q. So, you didn't care?
5 A. I'm not going to say I didn't care, but'I wasn't
6 going to wait around and find out.
7 Q. And ran in a straight line from where you snatched
8 that purse right up the ramp and over into Mexico?
9 A. Basically, yes.
10 Q. How did you explain the purse when you got through
11 the Mexican officials?
12 A. Didn't explain the purse.
13 Q. Anybody stop you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you concerned that you might be stopped?
16 A. Well, the purse was more like a bag, so, I mean,
17 you know, a shoulder bag type bag, men and women carry those
18 type bags. Only problem was that the shoulder strap was broke.
19 Q. Well, just before you snatched that purse you were
20 concerned about even needing a passport to go across the border,
21 weren't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As far as you knew when you went running across the
24 border they were going to check everything that you brought in
25 there, weren't they?
26 A. No, cause I asked a couple Americans that I seen Sr-" , '
27 and they told me, no, you don't need no passport to go in
28 Mexico.
I"'I'\Unn!TII<'DT., 1<'1"\ !TIDJ\. ~lCl"'nTn!TI
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5872
Q. Yes, but what about customs?
A. Well, if they are not going to ask for a passport,
why are they going to ask for customs?
Q. Needless to say you weren't concerned about anybody
looking in the items that you were carrying?
A. Well, from -- basically, no. From my
understanding, customs and passport and all that is one type
thing.
Q. So, now you're over in Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the time that you are in Mexico you
steal a watch?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did that happen?
A. In Tijuana.
Q. Describe the situation as far as the watch.
A. Well, somewhere along on some corner or
intersection on the the main street, I forget the name of it,
Revolucion or something like that, a guy was selling watches,
had what you might describe as a suitcase or attache case or
briefcase on a stand. It was open, down at the bottom part with
watches up on this part. It might have been some other type of
cheap jewelry. And what he was asking for the watch wasn't
worth it so I decided I'd take -- helped myself to it.
Q. Steal it?
A. Yeah, exactly.
Q. SO, what did you physically do, walk up and look at
the watch; have the man demonstrate the watch?
1
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
15 it?
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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24
25
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A.
Q.
purse?
A.
Q.
the watch?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
5873
No.
Just run by and pick it up and keep on running?
No.
How did you steal it?
Just took it.
Was he standing there?
Possibly. There were another customer, yes.
Did he see you take it?
He didn't say anything to me about it.
You didn't really need a watch, did you?
Yeah, I felt I did.
Just something you wanted.
No.
Kind of impulsive, like to have a watch so you take
No, I am not impulsive.
By this time had you counted the money in the
Somewhere around there I counted it.
Did you count the money before or after you stole
It is probably before.
Did you know how much money you had?
I know I had over a hundred dollars.
How much was the man asking for the watch?
About $15.
You decided for $15 you would run the risk of
28 stealing the watch in Mexico.
~, (
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5874
A. Well, I don't look it at as a risk, no.
Q. You stayed in Mexico Sunday, June the 5th, Monday
June the 6th, and Tuesday, June the 7th.
A. Yes. And left Wednesday the 8th.
Q. And did you figure that once you found a hotel
room, as far as your efforts to escape, you had succeeded?
A. Urn, I'd say that's safe to say, yes.
Q. What was the reason that caused you to leave June
9 the 8th?
10 A. The fact that my name had been mentioned in those
11 newspaper articles as possibly being a suspect.
12
13
Q.
A.
That was a real concern to you?
Well, I'm not going to say, but, then again, yeah,
14 it was a real concern, yes. I have to agree with you.
15
16
Q.
A.
In what way?
Well, for the simple fact a black man accused of
17 taking out a white family, that was bad business. So, I mean, I
18 got scared and I left.
19
20
Q.
A.
Bad business?
Yes.
21 Q. You registered at the hotel, you signed the name
22 Angel Jackson.
23
24
25
26
27
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Use a middle name?
Urn, I don't remember. I don't think so, no.
Where did Angel Jackson come from?
Well, it was Yolanda Jackson's last name .and I
28 figured as long as I was out I figured I better live like an
5875
angel. 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
Q. As far as your efforts of being a angel, you had
10
stolen a purse.
A. Right.
Q.
A.
Stolen a watch.
Right.
Q. At this point in time you figured if you are going
to avoid being caught for the murders you better not do anything
else.
A. No, sir.
11 Q. During your stay in a Mexican hotel, you paid for
12 your lodging with quarters.
13 A. Yes.
14
15
16
Q.
A.
Q.
American quarters?
Yes.
Stack them up each time and count them out for the
17 clerk and then shove them over?
18 A. Urn, I'm not going to say I stacked them up in a
19 straight line, no.
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
How much was it for your room each night?
Urn, somewhere about eight dollars a day.
When you left prison, they knew you as David
23 Anthony Trautman.
24 A. I believe Kevin Cooper, yes.
25 Q. All of the material you had was in the name of
26 David Anthony Trautman.
27
28
A.
Q.
Yes.
During the time that you are in Mexico you went to
2
5876
1 some of the bars and drank beers.
2
3
A.
Q.
Yes.
How many times did you go to the bars and have
4 beers?
5
6
7
8
9
10
A. Well, I was only there for three days. Couldn't
have been many times. I don't know how many offhand.
Q. How many times?
A. I don't know offhand.
Q. How many different bars did you go to?
A. Urn, I stepped in a couple of them, and particularly
11 didn't like the music, that is when I went to the Chicago Club.
12 Q. How many did you have at the Chicago Club?
13
14
15
16
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Not many. I don't drink much.
One or two?
Possible.
Each time you had gone to a bar would you have at
17 least one beer?
18 A. The way it is down here, they kind of force you to
19 buy a drink, so, sometimes I order a drink and it would last me
20 the length of time I was there.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
Q. You hate hard liquor, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You hate wine.
A. I am not to going to say I hate it, I just don't
like the taste of it.
MR. KOTTMEIER: This would be a convenient place, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Please remember the admonition during the
f'nM'DTTFJ'IJi''DT'1.14!n FJ'I1HU\I~("RT'P'T'
5877
1 lunch period and return at 1:30, please.
2 --00000--
3 (Noon recess taken.>
1 1
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5878
SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. MONDAY. JANUARY 7. 1985 1:35 P.M ••
--00000--
THE COURT: Go ahead, counsel.
6 KEVIN COOPER,
7 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been
8 previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
9 as follows:
10
11
12
13
14
CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Good afternoon, your Honor, good afternoon, ladies
and gentlemen.
15 Your Honor, for the record, we have furnished the
16 Court with the proposed jury instructions for this case I think
17 last Friday or Thursday.
18 Mr. Cooper, returning for just a moment to the
19 green bag, canvas bags with yellow handles, I have in my hand,
20 Exhibit 103.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Is that the bag you have been talking about?
I believe so, yes.
Within this bag is a sock.
Do you recognize the sock?
I believe so, yes.
Is that a prison issue sock?
No.
Where did the stock come from?
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5879
A. Owen Handy.
Q. There are some miccellaneous items in he~e,
including toilet paper, combs and so forth.
Where did those items come from?
A. These chop sticks were given to me by I believe it
was Pam and Peter on the "Burma Girl". They had used chop
sticks. This comb I believe was either Angelica's, or I bought
it when I bought the hickorys and things. This paint was from
Peter or Pam.
These chop sticks were also Peter and Pam. I
believe I bought this a hair pick in Mexico.
This towel, this rag I used, I believe I tore it
like this and made a headband out of it such to tie around my
head like that. This toilet paper is probably from off the
boat.
This pencil is one of the pencils that I used to
draw with that was given to me either by Peter or Pam, I
believe. On the ends here you can see where I tried to sharpen
it with the razor blade.
This handle right here is a shoulder handle I was
talking about, this part got broke somehow.
This sock is Owen's. I don't know what this is.
Q. Where did the towel portion come from that you made
your headband out of?
A. Off the boat.
Q. Off of the IlIa Tika?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to the remainder of the towel?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5880
A. Probably was a rag on the boat. 1
2 You mentioned purchasing combs in Mexico; is that
3 correct.
4
5
6
7
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
That is the Woolworth store?
I believe so, yes.
The same place that you purchased Exhibit 693-B,
8 the orange blazer hat?
9 A. Urn, I am not sure if that was purchased in
10 Woolworth's, but I purchased that in Mexico.
11 Q. Where did you get the 693-A, the orange "City of
12 Santa Barbara, California" hat?
13
14
A.
Q.
From Jim Savage.
Also from a shopping bag marked Exhibit 693 I am
15 taking out a green can that says 693-G on top of it.
16
17 A.
Do you recognize this?
That is the Bergamont hair grease I bought in
18 Mexico.
19 Q. Where did you by the hair grease?
20 A. I believe in Woolworth's.
21 Q. In addition to the hair grease and the combs, you
22 bought the black shoes that you have previously identified from
23 Exhibit 167.
24 A. Yep. But I don't believe I bought them in the
25
26
27
28
Woolworth's. But I bought them in Mexico, yes.
Q. During the time that you were staying in Tijuana,
June 5th through the 8th?
A. Yes.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5881
1 Q. What was the reason for buying a third pair of
? ~ shoes in Mexico at that time?
3 A. Well, basically because those yellow ones were old
4 and worn, and my prison shoes weren't in that good of shape, so
5 those were better' shoes.
6 Q. Well, your prison issue shoes had nothing wrong
7 with them, did they?
8 A. Besides dirt and mud, no.
9 Q. No marks on them that said Chino Institution for
10 Men or prison?
11 A. No.
12 Q. They fit fine.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And you had only had them for what, about a month
15 as of that time?
16 A. I don't know exactly what period of time, but I
17 didn't have them a long while, no.
18 Q. Yet, you buy the black pair of shoes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How much did the black shoes cost?
21 A. Urn, I don't remember offhand. It wasn't anymore
22 than $20.
23 Q. Your prison tennis shoes were clearly fairly new by
24 comparison to the shoes, Exhibit 120; isn't that correct?
25 A. I wouldn't say fairly new, but they were in --
26 better than those were, yes.
~ 27 I I Q. A lot better condition than these were.
28 A. What do you mean by Ra lot better condition?n
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5882
Q. They fit better, they had more sole to the bottom
of them.
A. I'm not going to say they fit better, but it is
possible they had a better sole, yes.
Q. Looked better.
A. I am not going to say they looked better, no.
Q. Now, in addition to the hat, the hair items and the
tennis shoes, what else, or excuse me, the black shoes, what
else did you buy in Mexico before you left Tijuana?
A. I know I bought a bag of soap, to get a bag of soap
like, I believe it was pink bars, there were about six or eight
in a bag. Some toothpaste, I believe it was close-up, I am not
sure, toothbrush, some deodorant, shavers, urn, I don't know what
else.
Q. All of the things that you have just mentioned were
available at the hideout house, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during that particular time that you are
making your purchases, this is the only period of time that you
buy things in Mexico except for giving money for food to
Angelica.
A. No.
Q. When did you buy items besides the three days in
Tijuana?
A. Wait a minute, I don't understand your question.
When I was in Tijuana. Are you -- would you start that over
please.
Q. You are in Tijuana.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5883
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yeu make certain purchases we have just talked
3 about.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Did you make any other purchases in Mexico other
6 than the three days that you spent money in Tijuana?
7
8
9
10 else.
11
12
13
14
15
food?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
In Ensanada I believe I did, yes.
What did you buy in Ensanada?
Cigarettes, cigarette papers. I'm not sure what
Well, did you give money to Angelica to purchase
Yes.
Were you with her when she made the purchase?
Yes. In fact, we had to go to the bank and get the
16 quarters changed into pesos. Yes, I was with her. Her Karole
17 and myself.
18 Q. SO, after spending the three days in Tijuana,
19 Mexico, you check out of your room.
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
And catch a bus to Ensanada.
A cab to the bus station and then a bus to
23 Ensanada, yes.
24 Q. And at some point in time met Owen Handy down in
25
26
27
28
Ensanada.
A. Yes.
Q. When you met Owen Handy you are carrying the green
bag and the white bag.
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5884
A. Yes.
Q~ And you tell Owen Handy that your name is Angel
Jackson.
art?
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
That was a lie.
Yes.
You told Owen Handy that you had gone to college.
No.
Did you tell him that you had done any study of
Yes.
Was that true?
Yes.
Did you tell Owen Handy that you were an art
student?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
That was a lie?
No.
Q. What else did you tell Owen Handy about yourself or
your backgrond that was untrue to fill in the parts of Angel
Jackson?
A. Basically I was from Pennsylvania, just traveling,
and I believe I told him that I had lost my identification, my
1.0, along those lines. That's basically it.
Q. For about the next month or month and a half, two
months you spend virtually 24 hours a day with Owen or Angelica
Handy.
A. Basically, yes.
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5885
Q. And during that time you hear information in the
presence of Owen and Angelica Handy abo~t the murders of the
Ryen family and Christopher Hughes.
A. Yes.
Q. On radio.
A. Yes.
Q. You were able to fool Angelica and Owen Handy as to
who you were during that entire two month period; isn't that
correct?
A. I wouldn't say fool, but they didn't know who I
11 was, no.
12 Q. You didn't make any slips at all to give them any
13 clues as to who you really were?
14 A. Not that I know of, no.
15 Q. The IlIa Tika was a very small sail-type boat, is
16 that correct, as pictured in 43?
17 A. Yes. It was 32 feet long.
18 Q. Did it have a motor in it?
19
20
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22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. Yes.
Q. Did the motor work?
A. Yes.
Q. And while you lived on that particular boat you
virtually were in constant contact with the Handys?
A. Virtually, yes.
Q. And you told us that you got seasick whenever you
went against the current.
A. That is how it started out, yes.
Q. Well, you got seasick most of the time that the
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
(~
5886
1 IlIa Tika was traveling up the coast or down the coast.
2 A. No.
3
4
5
6
7
8
Q. Isn't it true that you were in extreme agony during
those particular trips?
A. When I first started getting seasick I did get
seasick pretty bad, yes.
Q. For how many days did that last?
A. Well, I believe the first -- when I started getting
9 seasick is when we left Ensanada, and we pulled up in Cat
10 Harbor. I got better because we weren't moving, we were in an
11 anchorage. Then after we pulled anchor then we crossed to the
12 island. I believe during that trip across I got seasick. After
13 we anchored again, the seasick went away.
14 When we pulled the anchor and come back across I
15 got seasick again. After we anchored, I didn't get seasick, it
16 went away. Excuse me. When we went up to Pt. Conception to try
17 to go up to San Francisco I got seasick. But after we went back
18 to Santa Barbara and anchored the seasick went away.
19 Q. So, as long as you were in anchorage in a harbor
20 somewhere, you were protected from the roll of the heavy waves,
21 you weren't seasick.
22 A. At first, that's correct.
23 Q. Now, specifically, what was it that Owen taught you
24 in regard to sailing his boat?
25
26
27
A. How to read -- first, how to find out where you are
headed on the map. How to find out as far as the compass goes,
how to read the compass, how to steer the boat, how to put the
28 sail up, how to work the motor, how to -- where is the best
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5887
1 place to drop anchor. As far as the lights, you know, when you
2 put the lights on, when you don't put the lights on. Basically
3 that is about it.
4 Q. You heard Owen testify that he did not teach you
5 how to sail the boat.
6 A. Urn, I don't know if he said that or -- I know his
7 wife said he did teach me.
8 Q. As far as your stay on the boat, you stayed in the
9 compartment pictured in 630.
A. Yes. 10
11 Q. That is the area that in 630 has the orange nylon
12 all piled up almost to the roof line.
13
14
15
16
17
18 those
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
orange
Yes.
There was a bed in that area,
Yes.
There was a bed.
Yes. If you -- for example,
things out the way you would,
was there?
if you were to move
you would see this
19 place in between here is what you see in the picture, with the
20 orange stuff.
21 If you move it out of the way you see like a little
22 shelf down in there, on one side there is the bathroom on the
23 other side there would be a closet, then there was a bed maybe
24 up about this high. The reason why it is up this high, you take
25 two mattresses, lift up what I believe what you might call
26 covers, down inside was a place where you could put your sails
27 and extra things like down in there.
28 Q. Normally Owen and Angelica Handy would just take
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5888
1 the sails and dump them down through the hole that was right
2 over the area where you slept.
3 A. Put it like this. When Owen would take the sails
4 down, he'd open the hatch, drop the things down, jump down
5 through the hatch itself, then put the sails away.
6 Q. While on the boat you had other items, removing
7 them now from 693, including 693-C. For the record, it looks
8 like a piece of levi-type of material. What was that for?
9
10
A.
Q.
11 washcloth.
A.
Q.
Tie around my head.
693-E looks like a portion of a towel and
Correct.
Is that what that was?
12
13
14 A. Well, it wasn't a towel. And I believe I cut it to
15 make a washrag out from it.
16
17
18
Q.
A.
Q.
19 material.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Where did the towel come?
From Owen and Angelica, excuse me.
693-F another portion of a similar green towel
Yes.
Another headband.
Yes.
693-D looks like a larger portion, maybe a towel
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
sized portion from the same type of towel material.
A. Yes. All that came from the same big piece you
have in your hand, yes.
f' 27 Q. 693-D you used as a towel.
28 A. I don't know if I used it. It was on the boat.
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5889
1 know I made the washrag and the headband out of it, yes.
2 Q. We have had marked for identification for evidence
3 Exhibit No. 694, which is a brown paper bag that contains three
4 smaller bags within it, and at the bottom of the bag is also a
5 plastic bag that contains a rusty knife and some kind of leather
6 thong. Do you recognize the knife?
7 A. If I could see it closer, please. Yes. I believe
8 this is the knife that I found in the blue bag, yes.
9 Q. That has no separate number on it, but it was
10 within 694.
11 Also within that is the paper bag with identifying
12 information from the Santa Barbara Sheriff's office and another
13 paper bag inside that contains a pair of orange and black gym
14
15
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21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
shorts. Do
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
you recognize these?
Yep.
Do you know where those carne from?
Excuse me.
Do you know where those carne from?
Not offhand, I don't know.
Are they yours?
I don't believe so, no.
Did you have them on the IlIa Tika?
Yes. I wore them, yes.
You don't know where they carne from?
Not offhand, no I don't.
Do you know anyone by the name of Atkinson?
No.
Did not corne out of the Lang house.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5890
1 A. No.
2 Q. Also within 694 is another parer bag ~ith
3 identifying information from the San Barbara Sheriff's office,
4 and a bag inside of that which has a white type T-shirt.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Do you recognize that shirt?
Yes.
Is that a prison issue T-shirt?
No, I don't believe so.
Where did the T-shirt come from?
I believe from Owen.
From Owen?
Yes.
Owen Handy gave you this shirt?
A. Yes. I'm not going say he gave it, but what
happened Owen had a bag full of clothes. He said, nJust go in
and help yourself. n
Q. This is not then a prison issue T-shirt?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. How long did you have this shirt?
A. I don't know. I can tell by the colors I used it
21 to work on the boat.
22 Q. You can identify this as the T-shirt that you wore
23 on the IlIa Tika?
24 A. From the different things that is on there, I
25 believe so, yes.
26 Q. When you say ndifferent things" on there, what are
27 you referring to?
28 A. Well, this junk here, and different things like
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5891
1 that.
2 Q. You pointed to a large orange st~i~ right In the
3 center of one side of the shirt.
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
And what about the black marks on the shirt itself.
I don't know about those. It is possible those
7 Come from the boat.
8 Q. Looking at this particular shirt, and the T-shirt
9 removed from 160, which T-shirt in 160 has certain tears in it
10 and also some cuts, and in the back where samples have been
11 removed from identifying information on them.
12 Do you see any difference in the make between these
13 two shirts?
14 A. Besides this one having a tag in it right here,
15 this one not, difference in color, one might be a bit longer
16 than the other. But, basically, the neck on this one seems to
17 be bigger than the neck on that one. Besides that, no.
18 Q. Looking, for example, at the color in both shirts
19 there is a piece of material along the back side of the collar
20 that circles around and then goes down to each shoulder; is that
21 correct?
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Are you talking about this right here?
Yes.
There's a piece of material that does that, yes.
On both shirts?
Yes.
Q. In fact, even when you look at the collar itself,
the material has a different line or direction to it on that
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5892
1 little piece of material that is used for the collar in both
2 shirts, doesn't it?
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
A. Yep.
Q. You are sure you didn't leave this shirt, the one
from Exhibit 160 behind in the hideout house?
A. It is possible, but I don't believe so.
Q. The third bag from Exhibit 694 has identifying
information on the outside and contains within it a pair of
bikini type underwear, Jockey E Lance, E- with a slash over it,
10 l-a-n-c-e, size large 36 to 38.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
Do you recognize those?
Yes.
Whose are they?
Got 'ern out the blue bag down there on the floor.
Q. Well, Mr. Cooper, did you not have any underwear
when you were arrested in Santa Barbara?
A. I got arrested in those and that orange pair of
shorts.
Q. Those were the only items of underwear you had as
20 far as underpants?
21
22
A.
Q.
23 clothes?
24
25
26
27
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
28 clothes?
I believe so, yes.
So, you threw away your underwear with the prison
Yes.
Threw away your socks with the prison clothes?
Yes.
Threw away your tennis shoes with the prison
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
5893
Yes.
Threw away your jacket with the prison clothes?
Yes.
Through away your shirt with the prison clothes?
Yes.
Threw away your T-shirt with the prison clothes?
I believe so, yes.
Threw away your pants with the prison clothes.
I believe so, yes.
In fact, you were careful never to let Owen Handy
see any of those clothes?
A. No, I'm not going to say that, no.
Q. Did you wear them after you got on the IlIa Tika?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
Any of those prison clothes?
No.
Ever take them out of the bag?
No.
Ever let Angelica Handy see the prison clothes?
A. I don't know if she saw them or not. They were
right there in the bag. If they'd of looked they'd have saw
them.
Q. As far as taking them out, did you physically take
any of those clothes out after you got on board the boat?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Did you ask -- or did you show their daughter any
of the prison clothes?
A. I don't believe so, no.
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5894
1 Q. What you did do was wait until you had gotten out
2 of port, out of Mexico before you destroyed them?
3 A. What I did do was wait until I heard we were coming
4 back to the United States. Once we got back in the United
5 States I got rid of them, yes.
6 Q. How long did you have them in the boat?
7 A. From the time I got there till the time we got back
8 in the United States.
9
10
Q.
A.
11 into Mexico.
Well, when did you leave the United States?
I left the United States once I crossed the border
12 Q. And when was the next time after leaving Ensenada
13 that you came back to the United States?
14 A. I believe when we hit Cat Island, Cat Harbor,
15 whatever it is, Catalina Harbor.
16
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
So, within the first week?
Somewhere a long in there, yes.
You waited until the middle of the night?
No.
Well, you waited until after dark?
I believe so, yes.
Made sure that the Handys were not up and around?
No.
Well, you listened at the door?
No.
You climbed up through the hatch on to the deck?
Yes. That was my normal route, yes.
Took the white plastic bag with all of the prison
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5895
items in it?
A. Is that a question or a statement?
Q. You took the white plastic bag with all of the
prison clothes that we've just mentioned out of the hatch with
you up on deck?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you take and throw them as a group into the
ocean or did you throw them one by one?
A. I believe so, it was a group.
Q. Did you weight the bag in any fashion?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Did you weight the bag in any fashion to cause the
clothes to sink?
A. No.
Q. You threw them over the side and then went back
down to sleep?
A. No.
Q. What did you do after you threw them over the side?
A. Probably just sat up on deck, smoked a cigarette
and watch 'em float.
Q. At that point in time you had no underwear?
A. True.
Q. Had no socks?
A. I had socks, yes.
Q. You had other socks?
A. From Owen. He had told me anything I needed, my
home was there home, anything I needed, just look in the bags
and dig it out.
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5896
Q. As illustrated by the lone sock in the green bag
with the yellow handles?
A. "As illustrated", what do you mean by that?
Q. As illustrated by the lone sock in the green bag
with the yellow handles; you didn't even have a pair of socks?
A. Yes, I did. I didn't collect that stuff. Your
guys collected that.
Q. You had no jacket.
A. No.
Q. The Handys represented to you something better than
11 money, didn't they?
12 MR. NEGUS: Objection. I think that's sort of vague.
13 THE COURT: Well, let's see if he understands it.
14 Do you understand the question, Mr. Cooper?
15 THE DEFENDANT: No, sir.
16 BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
17 Q. The Handys represent a ticket out of the country?
18
19
20
21
22
23
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes and no.
Possible trip to Costa Rica?
Yes and no.
Possible trip to Panama?
Yes and no.
When you were on board with the Handys you wanted
24 to get away as far as possible, isn't that true?
25 A. I have to disagree with you, sir.
26
27
28
Q. Well, you didn't want to go to any state in the
United States?
A. Well, I have to disagree with you, sir.
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5897
Q. Once you had left Mexico you were happy to be on
your way even away from Mexico?
A. I have to disagree with you, sir.
Q. During the time that were you were on the boat with
the Handys, how many radio broadcasts did you hear about
relating to the killing of Christopher Hughes and the Ryen
7 family?
8
9
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17
A.
Q.
A.
Exact numbers I don't know. I heard a few.
Approximately how many?
I don't know. They didn't always have batteries
for the radio, so, I mean, I don't know.
Q. But Owen would talk to you and tell you things
like, "Boy, if I could find Cooper my boat pavement would be
taken care of."?
A. No, not like that, no.
Q. What did he say about that?
A. He said probably something like, ah, "It's sure
18 nice to get that reward money", something like that.
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Did you ever discuss with him aspects of the crime
itself, that is, as portrayed on the radio?
A. No.
Q. Discuss the stories about what went on at the Ryen
house?
A. No.
25 Q. As far as you were concerned, your escape was
26 complete as soon as you crossed over the border into Mexico with
27
28
money?
A. At that particular point in time, yes.
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5898
Q. On Monday, June the 6th, you're in Mexico with
money, a room to stay, even bars to go to; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And yet that particular evening you called
5 Diane Williams?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We've had marked as a photograph, eight by ten
8 photograph, Exhibit 695. Do you represent -- Excuse me. Do you
9 recognize the lady pictured in this photograph?
10
11
12
13
14
15
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
That's a pictured of Diane Williams?
Yes.
Is that how she appeared when you last saw her?
I don't know.
Well, her hairstyle is a little different; isn't
16 that correct?
17
18
19
20
21
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Excuse me.
Her hairstyle is a little bit different?
I don't know.
What was your reason in calling Diane Williams?
Because when I was at the Lease house she told me
22 to call her back in a day or so.
23
24
25
26
27
28
Q. To get money?
A. Basically, yes.
Q. And to avoid being traced to the hotel you go up to
Woolworth's to use the phone?
A.
Q.
It wasn't a phone in the hotel for me to use.
None at all?
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5899
A. Wasn't one in my room. I don't believe there was
one cut at the fro~t desk, no.
Q. Was there a phone closer to your hotel to use than
the ones up by Woolworth's?
A. It's possible.
Q. SO, that Monday, June 6th, at about 7:00 o'clock in
the evening, Tijuana time, you called Pittsburg, Pennsylvania?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
And you called collect?
Yes.
11 Q. Once you got ahold of Diane, where were you going
12 to tell her to send the money?
13
14
A.
Q.
First I had to see if she got any.
Where were you going to tell her to send the money?
15 A. I wasn't, just till, like I said before, I was
16 telling her hold it until, you know, I found a place for her to
17 send it to.
18 Q. SO, she was supposed to hold it again if she had
19 gotten the money?
20 A. Yeah. I didn't see anything wrong with that. It's
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
true.
Q. You hadn't made plans to have her send it to the
Tijuana bus terminal?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. Were you going to have her send it to you by wire,
by bus, by any form?
A. No. I didn't have any identification. No, sir.
Q. So this was just an effort on your part to see if
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5900
1 she got it, just in case? ,~
2 A. Basically.
3 Q. Well, what did you hope to accomplish by calling
4 Diane Williams on Monday, June the 6th?
5 A. Didn't hope to accomplish anything.
6 Q. Just talk to her?
7 A. Like I said, just talk to her and see what's going
8 on, that's all.
9 Q. How long did the conversation last?
10 A. I don't know. I don't believe it lasted a long
11 time.
12 Q. Diane Williams was extremely upset?
13 A. Excited is more the word.
14 Q. Diane Williams said to you in that conversation,
15 "You killed those people, didn't you?n?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You're not even a suspect yet and Diane Williams is
18 suggesting that you committed the murders?
19 A. She said I was a suspect. She said they were
20 looking for me for it.
21 Q. And she also said in an accusing fashion, nyou
22 killed those people."?
23 A. Urn, I believe so, yes.
24 Q. After your conversation with Diane Williams, you
25 know now that the crime has been discovered in the Chino Hills?
26 A. No.
27 Q. The next morning, Tuesday, June the 7th, for the
28 first time you get ahold of the Los Angeles Times; is that
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5901
correct?
l\ ... I'm not going to say it's in the morning, but
sometime during that day. I believe it was after I tried to
call Yolanda that I got the newspaper.
Q. Tuesday, June the 7th, you find out that you're
wanted as an escapee?
A. Yes.
Q. But at that time your name is not at all linked to
the killing of the Ryen family and Christopher Hughes?
A. I considered it linked just by being in that
article.
Q. But you are not identified as a suspect in that
article, are you?
A. Well, the way I remember that, I can't say yes or
no on this. What I'm going to say, by my best recollection of
reading that newspaper article on June the 7th was that they had
mentioned me and a few other names about being an escapee in
that area, so, therefore, I took that for what it was worth.
Q. Yet after you had talked to Diane Williams you
still spent the night in the same hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. You go out still drinking, having a good time in
Mexico on the 7th?
A. It's not like you make it sound, but basically,
yes.
Q. During the evening hours of Tuesday, June the 7th,
you call Yolanda Jackson collect?
A. Yes.
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
5902
Where did you make the phone call from?
Phone, telephone.
Where?
From Tijuana. I'm not exactly sure, might have
5 been in front of Woolworth's.
6
7
Q.
A.
Not from the hotel?
I just told you there is not a phone in the hotel
8 to call from, sir.
9 Q. And when you called Yolanda Jackson her father
10 answers the phone?
11
12
13
14
15
16
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I didn't know who it was that answered the phone.
A male voice?
Yes.
And you say, this is Kevin Williams in Tijuana?
I don't say that, the operator says that.
And as you're waiting for Yolanda Jackson to come
17 to the phone, you hear Yolanda Jackson say, aI don't know any
18 Kevin Williams in Tijuana. a?
19
20
21
A.
Q.
A.
No, that's not true.
So, why didn't you talk to Yolanda Jackson?
Well, I will put it like this, normally of all the
22 times I ever called Yolanda's house collect from the County
23 Jail, just call her from the streets, call her, when I called
24 her from the Lease house, when I called her from CIM, all the
25 time I ever called Yolanda's house she was the only one that
26 answered that phone. Matter of fact, from what she told me her
27 parents, anybody never went in her room. She was the only one
28 that ever answered that phone. And it, you know, didn't seem
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5903
1 right that a man, somebody else would answer her telephone.
Q. 2 So, you hung up right away?
A. 3 Basically, yes.
4 Never tried to call Yolanda Jackson back after Q.
5 that?
A. 6 Urn, I don't remember whether I did or not.
Q. 7 You knew that the police had made it to Yolanda
8 Jackson's apartment?
9
10
11
12
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
How do I know that?
I'm asking you, did you know that?
No.
Did you make any attempt to get ahold of Yolanda
13 Jackson any time in the future when the IlIa Tika came put into
14 port?
15 A. Urn, no.
16 Q. The only reason you were trying to get ahold of
17 Yolanda Jackson was to use her to help you escape?
18
19
A.
Q.
That's a lie.
And as long as you had transportation and a place
20 to hide, Diane Williams and Yolanda Jackson were no longer
21 important to you?
22
23
A.
Q.
That's not true.
Well, you spent Tuesday night, June the 7th, in
24 that same hotel?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. The next morning you got the L.A. Times, San Diego
27 edition?
28 A. Yes.
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5904
1 Q. What did you read about yourself in the San Diego
2 edition of the L.A. Times the morning of June the 8th, 1983?
3 A. Well, Kevin Cooper was in there along with David
4 Trautman, the fact that I escaped and maybe a few other things.
5 Q. Including the fact that Josh Ryen had survived the
6 murders?
7
8
9
10
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
It's possible it was in there, yes.
And that scared you, didn't it?
No.
And because Josh Ryen survived it was now time for
11 you to move south.
12 A. No.
13
14
Q. Mr. Cooper, what contact did you have with any of
your friends or anyone that you knew after you found out that
15 Josh Ryen had survived the murders of his family and friend
16 Christopher Hughes?
17 A. After I read that newspaper article, I don't
18 believe I had any contact with anybody.
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Until the California Coast Guard caught you rowing
away at Pelican Cove?
A. True.
MR. KOTTMEIER: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. NEGUS: No. My next witness is -- I was led to
25 believe that cross would last a little longer. My next witness
26 will be here at 9:30 tomorrow morning. I have a matter to take
27 up outside the presence of the jury before we get to that.
28 THE COURT: You have no more questions of Mr. Cooper?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5905
MR. NEGUS: No, I don't. 1
2
3
4
THE COURT: All right. We will need the jurors at 9:30,
though?
MR. NEGUS: Yes. I have witnesses from then on. We just
5 weren't sure about the time.
6 THE COURT: Well, we will let you off early, ladies and
7 gentlemen, so let's resume tomorrow at 9:30. And still remember
8 the admonition at all times, particularly towards the latter
9 part of the trial. Have a nice evening. See you tomorrow.
10 Want to go to chambers, Mr. Negus?
11 MR. NEGUS: I don't. They might. I'm not sure. I would
12 just as soon do it in open court, but --
13 THE COURT: Counsel, let take it up in chambers. I don't
14
15
16
know what's coming.
MR. NEGUS: I just told Mr. Kochis.
MR. KOCHIS: We can handle in it chambers. That would be
17 fine.
18
19 (Chambers conference reported.)
20 MR. KOCHIS: We'd like to take a five minute recess
21 rather than keep you poised in chambers.
22 THE COURT: I'm not working hard enough.
23 MR. KOCHIS: We are going to do that. Just give us five
24 minutes.
(Recess.) 25
26 THE COURT: All right. In chambers on the record.
27 Defendant and all counsel are present.
28 MR. NEGUS: Like to renew at this point in time, your
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5906
1 Honor, my request that we visit the scene at some pOint in time
2 during the defense case.
3 We've had extensive cross-examination by Mr. -- of
4 Mr. Cooper with testimony from -- by Mr. Kottmeier as to what
5 you can and can't see under different lighting conditions from
6 different places in the at the scene. And so now I believe
7 that this has been used to essentially impeach Mr. Cooper
8 through the testimony of Mr. Kottmeier.
9 I don't believe we can find any neutral or unpar
10 impartial witnesses in this case which can give us accurate
11 testimony as to what you can and can't see from different spots.
12 Therefore, I think it's imparative to not only for the -- for
13 the judging the credibility of Josh Ryen, the second most
14 important witness in the case, but also for judging the
15 testimony of Mr. Cooper, who has got to be the most important
16 witness in the case, to go to the crime scene and not only test
17 the lighting conditions inside the Ryen house, but also to see
18 what you can see from the living room, see what you can see from
19 the living room as you're bending down and doing the television,
20 and all the other points of view around the house, both daytime
21 and at nighttime.
22 And I realize that this is a tremendous -- that
23 there are certain tactical problems involved. I would point out
24 that Mr. Kottmeier's objection last time was that the danger of
25 the Chino people intervening and doing nasty things to us, or
·26
27
28
coming out with placards or doing something of that nature, as
much as the Chino
THE COURT: Apart from that and the cost and that sort of
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5907
1 thing, apart from that, if we're talking about in effect
2 conducting an out-of-court experiment es far aE lighting
3 conditions and things are concerned, there is no way that we
4 have any assurance of duplication of similar condition at all.
5 MR. NEGUS: Well, we can -- we can at least get it down
6 to -- we can document as to which lights were likely to be on at
7 the Ryen house. Let's start with that. Okay. We can document
8 which lights were likely to have been on in the Ryen house
9 because we have photographs. And we can do the different
10
11
12
13
14
15
alternatives. So the lighting conditions in the Ryen house,
with the exception of the fact the furniture has been taken out,
the structure of the house, the lights are in the same position.
THE COURT: Well, I can just see lots of objections to
it.
MR. NEGUS: But I think that all those objections can be
16 met. The only thing which is different about the scene is that
17 the Ryen house and the interior of the Lease House are furnished
18 differently, and there is now a wall between certain parts of
19 the Lease House. But as far as what you -- the position of the
20 windows haven't changed. The position of what you could see out
21 of the various windows at various times hasn't changed. And
22 light versus dark doesn't change that -- that drastically.
23 THE COURT: Camera shots can be taken out the various
24 windows to show what you can see in that regard, in daylight
25 hours anyway.
26 MR. NEGUS: We have already tried to take camera shots.
27 First of all, I don't think -- we've got camera shots, but we
28 have great disagreements, even amongst the counsel here, as to
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5908
what the significance of the camera shots.
Mr. Kottmeier testifies in talking to Mr. Cooper as
to quite different things than I saw when I was at the scene.
And so I could -- I can imagine here just not going -- the
camera shots are not going to duplicate what you can see with
the human eye. And particularly if you -- it's not going to
duplicate, you know, how obvious certain things are.
And that's really what the crux of the thing is,
how obvious -- do you have to see the Ryen house when you are
down at the Lease house. And that's the crux of Mr.
Kottmeier's I mean he has essentially testified several times
that you would have to.
THE COURT: What's critical about going to the scene?
How is it really going to help anybody?
MR. NEGUS: I think it will show that Mr. Cooper is not
lying as far as the things that Mr. -- many of the things that
Mr. Kottmeier suggested that he is. And it also it will
demonstrate that even thought lights were on in the Ryen -- the
lights were not on in the Ryen house, Josh Ryen could see three
white people, and both those I think are critical to the
defense.
You know, the prosecution has the advantage of all
all these Chino people here giving them information about the
house and all this sort of thing. So we're getting an one-sided
view presented through the statements of Mr. Kottmeier, maybe
through the statements of the people there.
We don't have a chance adequately to cross-examine
them because I can't sit there at the scene and recreate it.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5909
1 And I think that the jurors will have a natural inclination to
2 want to see that.
3 MR. KOTTMEIER: Your Honor,
4 MR. NEGUS: I can't imagine jurors not.
5 MR. KOTTMEIER: Maybe rather than having to have the
6 issue resolved now, my feeling is if a visit to the scene is
7 appropriate it would be best when the defense is rested so if
8 there are issues, if there are issues that can be resolved by
9 the visit it can be have been made --
10 THE COURT: I'm not concerned just with timing, Mr.
11 Kottmeier. So far he hasn't demonstrated to me the necessary
12 criteria for visiting the scene, conducting outside experiments,
13 nor the need for it, really, nor the efficacy considering the
14 difficulty and cost and inconvenience and everything else.
15 MR. NEGUS: The cost is minimal compared to what we have
16 already expended just to bring down
17 THE COURT: It wouldn't
18 MR. KOTTMEIER: All I wanted to offer, at least as far as
19 your thoughts at this time, is that we may have a different
20 position when the defense has rested.
21 THE COURT: I'm not sure that would make any difference
22 if you were saying that you would stipulate to it at the moment.
23 MR. KOTTMEIER: All I wanted to do is not be held to one
24 position or the other without at least voicing our position on
25 the record.
26 MR. NEGUS: Okay. It seems like Mr. Kottmeier wants to
27 have it as part of his case so it looks like he is doing it
28 whereas he has resisted it in the past when I suggested it. I
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5910
1 think it's important to the defense case, and I think it's a
2 critical part of the defense case. I don't see how -- I don't
3 see how the critical issues of Mr. Cooper's credibility and Josh
4 Ryen's credibility can be resolved favorably to me without it.
5 Maybe able to be resolved favorably to the prosecution, but
6 you're going to have just -- because the scene itself is not
7 the -- is not the kind of thing which the the jurors can be
8 expected experience of. Those distances do not -- cannot appear
9 on the chart. There are cliffs and stuff that separate the
10 Lease house out from the Ryen house which no photographs have
11
12
13
14
has adequately demonstrated. There are lighting conditions
inside that master bedroom of the Ryen house which no -- I tried
taking photographs; it didn't work. They tried taking
photographs; it didn't work. You cannot photograph the lighting
15 conditions. We tried.
16 MR. KOCHIS: But perhaps Mr. Negus should tell you why
17 the photographs didn't work. I believe it was dark and he
18 didn't get the film in the camera.
19 MR. NEGUS: No. I had two sets of them. That's not why
20 it didn't work. The ones I did take didn't work.
21 THE COURT: Counsel, I'm still going to deny your motion
22 at this stage. Anything else?
23 MR. KOTTMEIER: An additional factor is, I understand
24 tomorrow we will begin with the conversations that Josh
25 attempted to have with various individuals. I will object to
26 any conclusionary type statements made by the witness. I have
27
28
no objections to questions along the line: I asked these words;
he squeezed my hand; he didn't squeeze my hand; or he pointed
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5911
1
2
3
4
to, yes or no. But a general narrative of this is what he is
trying to tell me, I will object.
THE COURT: Well, you can insist upon a question and
answer type of thing so it wouldn't be a narrative.
5 Do you have any problem with that, Mr. Negus? He's
6 not -- it's not the gist of what you expect to bring out
7 apparently he is objecting to, it's the -- it's bringing it out
8 in a certain way.
9 MR. NEGUS: Well, as long as I can ask leading questions,
10 then I will be glad to do it. If I have to ask, you know, what
11 happened -- well, I will even try and do it without leading
12 questions. I don't see --
13
14
THE COURT: Is this O'Campo?
MR. NEGUS: Well, O'Campo, I'm going to not have to ask
15 leading questions.
16 THE COURT: I would permit it I think.
17 MR. NEGUS: Just so you will know, my first witness will
18 be Don Gamundoy who you have seen briefly at the Hitch motion.
19 He is a social worker from the hospital. He is the one that
20 questioned Josh with the ~hart.
21 MR. KOCHIS: I think what Mr. Kottmeier was articulating
22 was that at the Hitch hearing a number of people from Lorna Linda
23 in effect testified that Josh said A, B, and C. Then on
24 cross-examination it came out that Josh never said anything.
25 There were some questions and he did certain things. At times
26 he blinked his eyes1 at time he pointed1 and at times he
27
28
squeezed his hand. For a witness to get on, for example, Mr.
Gamundoy and to say Joshua Ryen said there were three white
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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5912
people in the house, that's a conclusion on his part.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Drwwn from certain examiners in physical
conditions that were engaged in, not necessarily the testimony
or the statement.
THE COURT: I see your point.
MR. NEGUS: We will try and be as precise as we can.
THE COURT: Well, we don't have a hearsay objection and
we're not into that kind of an objection in open court as far as
you can envision.
MR. KOTTMEIER: No. It's just strictly how the
information is imparted to the jury.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. KOCHIS: Well, before we leave that area, I think
under the Green case if there is a hearsay issue in that, what
the testimony is at this point in front of the jury
THE COURT: You can step out if you want a minute, Mr.
Negus. Mr. Forbush just came in.
MR. NEGUS: Yeah, wait. Your Honor, I am a little bit
behind on my paperwork. Could I have an oral order approving
that we bring down Mr. Gamundoy? We have to pay his way down
and put him up tonight apparently because it's inconvenient for
him to drive down tomorrow.
THE COURT: I don't know why you have to put him up.
MR. NEGUS: Well, apparently it's inconvenient for him to
get down or he is concerned with logistics and finding a place
and leaving early enough and things of that sort.
THE COURT: You explain it to him, Mr. Forbush. I'm not
going to put him up overnight unless he goes into late afternoon
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5913
or something like that. 1
2 MR. NEGUS: He is going to be the first witness in the
3 morning.
4 THE COURT: She shouldn't have to be put up overnight.
5 MR. KOCHIS: I've had time to think about what I was
6 about to say, and I have given it thought.
7 THE COURT: Want me to strike it?
8 MR. KOCHIS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Anything else? How are you doing
10 logistically, Mr. Negus? Do you envision any problems?
11 MR. NEGUS: Not in the near future, I don't think, not
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
that I know of.
THE COURT:
MR. KOCHIS:
THE COURT:
MR. KOCHIS:
MR. NEGUS:
THE COURT:
Can you give me an estimate?
February the 7th.
Beg pardon?
He may rest by February the 7th.
I think I told the press February 5th.
Okay. You expect to take that long then?
19 MR. NEGUS: Yeah. I mean, that's my best guess. I mean,
20 I can tell you -- I can tell you basically where we are going.
21 THE COURT: No. Just kind of keep me -- don't surprise
22 me.
23 MR. NEGUS: Well, I will tell what you I told the press
24 and the prosecutors so at least you know that much if you want.
25 We're going to start out going through Josh. That
26 will take us into the beginning of next week I believe. By the
27
28
time we get on all the witnesses on with that, then we are going
to to go through three white guys. That should take us well
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5
1
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5914
into the week of Martin Luther King's birthday. Then we are
going to go through the botching of the crime scen~ and the
experts. That's it.
THE COURT: When is his birthday?
MR. KOCHIS: His birthday is either the 19th or the 20th.
THE CLERK: We take it the 21st.
THE COURT: Is that a local day?
THE CLERK: Yes.
9 MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, on one of these afternoons when
10 we have a short session, although Mr. Negus has represented that
11 jury instructions are not going to be an issue, I would like for
12 us to discuss those in January and not leave that to the day
13 before it.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
start.
THE COURT: I would like that myself.
MR. NEGUS: I haven't looked at them, but I will try to
MR. KOCHIS: It doesn't have to be this week.
THE COURT: Try and --
MR. NEGUS: It's 2.01 and 2.90.
THE COURT: Try and run through them before next week,
21 Mr. Negus, if you can, so we can have a preliminary run through.
22 MR. NEGUS: By when?
23
24
25
26
27
THE COURT: Sometime next week.
MR. NEGUS: Okay.
THE COURT: You've got the rest of the day.
MR. NEGUS: I just happened to notice Mr. Kochis' notes.
Just a couple more things I would like to articulate about the
28 the house. There is also the issue of the garage door and the
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5915
1 bathroom, which I think would be helpful if we could also at the
2 scene
3 THE COURT: That can all be done by witnesses.
4 MR. NEGUS: But it canrt because the witnesses say
5 different things.
6 THE COURT: That garage door can certainly be done by
7
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witnesses.
All right. I will see you tomorrow.
(Adjournment.)
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
DEPARTMENT NO. 30
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
KEVIN COOPER,
Defendant.
HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
NO. OCR-9319
-----------------------------------)
REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT January 8, 1985
APPEARANCES:
For the People:
For the Defendant:
DENNIS KOTTMEIER District Attorney WITH: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney 1540 Mountain Avenue Ontario, California 91762
DAVID L. McKENNA Public Defender BY: DAVID E. NEGUS Deputy Public Defender 1060 West Sixth Street Ontario, California 91762
ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR i1727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR i1874 Official Reporters
l.
/....--~ ..... , INDEX OF WITNESSES
ZQR ~DEFENDANT: Direct Cross Redirect Recross
GAMUNDOY, Donald Dames (Mr. Negus) 5918 5965 (Mr. Kottmeier) 5936 5976
SHARP, Dale Ervin (Mr. Negus) 5977 6051 (Mr. Kottmeier) 6044 6057
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
Iden. In Eyd.
696 Lorna Linda Hospital 5923 Records - Mr. Gamundoy
697 Blank Sheet of Paper - 5922 Mr. Gamundoy
698 Progress Notes by 5965 Mr. Gamundoy
699 CC 2-Page Medical 5967 Record - Neurosurgery
700 CC Admitting Data Base - 5969 Trauma Room Record
701 Butcher Paper Diagram - 6005 Mr. Sharp
5916
1 SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. TUESDAY. JANUARY 8. 1985. 9:29 A.M.
2 --00000--
3
4 (The following proceedings were held in
5 open court out of the presence of the jury:)
6 THE COURT: Please be seateda Thank you.
7 Before we bring the jurors in and get started this
8 morning, we opened up some sealed records this morning, you
9 wanted to get that on the record.
10 MR. NEGUS: Yes, your Honor. We have opened up -- there
11 was a series of records that we have opened up from Josh Ryen
12 and it was sealed on September 7th, 1984, by Mrs. Aldoy back in
13 Ontario. From that I have asked to be able to remove the Lorna
14 Linda University Hospital records.
15 The procedure that I would request that we follow
16 is, rather than introducing all of the records in bulk as we did
17 before, that we take out individual records which are going to
18 be the relevant ones and have them separately marked for this
19 particular hearing. But in order to make a record, as they
20 don't have little stickers on them, I wanted to indicate that we
21 are, in fact, removing those records from Hitch Exhibit 1 and
22 having them separately marked for this particular hearing.
23 THE COURT: Any objections, Mr. Kottmeier?
24 MR. KOTTMEIER: No, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right, then. They may be separately
26 marked but continuing numerically on.
27 MR. NEGUS: Just the way we have been marking all our
28 other exhibits. But I just want -- it has to do with the
,..._ ... T"IoP1'IT'I ............ ,.. 1"7 n'r"\. rnn" .. ,.,..."n T nm
5917
1 integrity of the exhibits from the Hitch motion which we have
2 separately, so all the Loma Linda University Hospital records
3 will have come from H-l.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Are you gOing to be able to start with
5 the jury right away?
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
MR. NEGUS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. You can bring them in.
(Recess.)
(The following proceedings were held in
open court in the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: Good morning, all. You all are very, very
13 faithful in appearing promptly every day. We greatly appreciate
14 it.
15 Mr. Negus, we are ready for your next witness.
16 That would be Don Gamundoy, your Honor.
17 Is he outside?
19 You know, when we start off the day or a
20 witness, you can have that person in, ready
21
22
23
24
Okay. Come forward, please.
Raise your right hand, be sworn, please.
25 DONALD DAMES GAMUNDOY,
26 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been duly
27 sworn, testified as follows:
28 THE CLERK: Would you please have a seat on the witness
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5918
stand. Would you state your full name for the record and spell
it, please.
THE WITNESS: Name is Don Dames Gamundoy, middle name is
spelled D-a-m-e-s, last name is G-a-m-u-n-d-o-y.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Mr. Gamundoy on June 5th, 1983, who was your
employer?
A. Lorna Linda University Medical Center.
Q. And what position did you have with the medical
center on that particular day?
A. I was the clinical social worker in the emergency
department.
Q. Does Lorna Linda University Medical Center function
in any way as a trauma center for the -- what's called the
Inland Empire area?
A. Yes, they are a trauma center.
Q. What does that mean?
A. To my understanding a trauma center means that
there's 24-hour emergency care with a system that provides
physicians in several services, you know, be they thorasic, ENT,
eyes, nose and throat, trauma, you know, all the services in
medicine. That would be available to the emergency department
on a 24-hour basis.
Q. What is your particular duty within that -- within
that particular system?
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5919
A. Specifically or generally?
Q. Well, let's start with specifically on June 5th,
1983.
A. Okay. Specifically on that particular day was to
identify the patient, contact next of kin or relatives or
family, as well as to render crisis and emotional therapy to
whoever was involved, you know, that be staff, the patient,
patient's family.
Q.
fields of
So your background and training is more in the
of dealing with the emotions of persons involved in
trauma rather than actually treating their medical problems?
A. Right.
Q. On that particular day were you actually at the
hospital before you learned that there was an emergency patient
corning in?
A. No, I was not at the hospital.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was at horne.
Q. Did you receive a call?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. From whom?
A. The charge nurse.
Q. And do you know approximately what time you
received that call?
A. It could have been about 2:10 p.m.
Q. When you got the call did you go immediately to the
hospital?
A. Yes, I did.
"" •• T"\P'Yrnnn'r n n'r"lo. rnn 1\ ...... ,.,,.,T\"T 1"'IIrn
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5920
Q. How far is the hospital from your home?
A. About four miles.
Q. When you arrived at the hospital, did you discover
that there was a young boy in the emergency room?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any police officers present when you
arrived?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that -- how many?
A. I could recall probably two uniform officers and I
assume the rest were plain clothes, maybe detectives.
Q.
near Josh
Was there any particular officer that was actually
near the young boy?
A. In the room, not specifically; outside of the room,
yes.
Q. What was the young boy's appearance when you first
saw him, that is, was he in any way bandaged or had he been
already treated?
A. He was in the process of being treated. What I
remember was his head was bandaged.
Q. Did -- do you recall whether or not there was any
intubation?
A. Yes, there was~
Q. In what where'?
A. I think in his trachea.
Q. Did -- what were the doctors doing when you
arrived?
A. They were -- they were in the process of taking
5921
1 x-rays and reading x-rays.
2 Q. When you arrived, was anybody trying to question
3 the young boy?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
When I arrived, no.
Did you yourself begin to try and question him?
Yes, I did.
Was he able to speak?
Verbally, no.
Did you try different communication systems with
him in order to try to communicate with him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you describe the first method that you
attempted to employ?
A. The first method that I used was blinking eyes,
eyes blinking. And I explained to him that what I wanted to be
a yes was a blink of the eyes.
Q. Was there any -- did you continue with that -- with
that particular method of questioning throughout your attempts
to get information from him?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, because I felt that it wasn't -- it wasn't
adequate because when I didn't ask questions I would watch him
and he would blink my way, so I couldn't tell if he was tired or
25 had something in his eye or dryness of his eyes. So I decided
26 to, you know, change it.
27
28
Q.
A.
Did you then attempt to have him write out answers?
Uh-huh.
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Q.
A.
Q.
method?
A.
Q.
A.
You have to say yes or no.
Yes. Yes.
And was there any particular problem with that
Yes, there was.
What was that?
I'd asked him to write his name and birthdate,
5922
which he did, but none of us in the immediate area could not
you know, understand. It wasn't legible at all.
Q. What method did you then adopt?
A. I got a blank sheet of paper. Placed it on a
clipboard, and I wrote out the letters nAn to nZn, numbers nln
through non, and the words nyes n and nno R•
Q. When you finished your attempts to get information
from the young boy, what happened to that piece of paper?
A. I threw it away.
Q. Giving you Exhibit 697, a blank piece of paper, is
18 that the approximate size of the paper that you used?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And asking you then could you reconstruct from --
21 for us as best you can on that piece of paper, the chart that
22 you used?
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
If I can put that on the board.
That's indicating that ---
Placing that chart on the board then, in what
manner did you present that chart to the young boy?
A. Like I said before, it was on a clipboard1 placed
5923
1 them in front of his face. And I told him that I was going to
2 ask him some questions and I wanted him to point to the
3 letters
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. -- and numbers.
6 Q. Did he -- was he able to use his hands to actually
7 physically point?
8
9
A.
Q.
Yes.
What -- what was the first question that you asked
10 him?
11 A. I asked him what his name was.
12 Q. And which letters did he point to?
13 A. He pointed to the "J", the "0", the "S" and the
14 "H".
15
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18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Did you ask him his last name?
Yes.
Do you remember which letters he pointed to?
The nRn, nyn, I can't remember if it was the nE" or
the nAn, and the nN n •
Q. Did you during the -- during the course of your
work at the hospital on that particular day, write up a report
of the work that did you with Josh Ryen?
A. Yes.
Q. And in that report did you include the spelling as
25 he gave it to you on that particular day?
26
27
A.
Q.
Yes.
Showing you Exhibit 696; is that a Xerox copy of
28 the report that you prepared of your contact with Josh?
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5924
A. Yes.
Q. Does it also include contacts with law enforcement
at the time and other information about that particular -- that
particular series of events?
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the purpose of that particular report that
you prepared?
A. The purpose of this is to communicate to nurses as
well as physicians what took place in terms of psychosocial
social work in the emergency department.
Q. Is one of the duties of yours to try and obtain
some information as to what happened to cause the trauma to the
patient?
A. Yes.
Q. And for what purpose is that information used?
16 A. Here again, to communicate to the following staff
17 what took place with this particular patient.
18 Q. Is that information that you just attempt to get in
19 this particular case or is that something that you get in the
20 normal course of the hospital business?
21
22
A.
Q.
That's normal course of hospital business.
And in the normal course of hospital business, do
23 you attempt to get that information as accurately as possible?
24 A. Uh-huh, yes.
25 Q. I'm not sure if I asked this question, but on your
26 particular report that indicates that Josh gave you the "E"
27 Rather than the nAn~ is that right?
28 A. Yes.
5925
1 Q. What was the -- what next did you ask Josh after
2 you got his his -- his name?
3 A. I asked him if Josh was short for Joshua, and he
4 said, "Yes".
5
6
7
8
9
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11
12
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
How did he do that?
I asked him was Josh short for Joshua.
Right. And how
And he pointed.
And how did he respond?
And how? And he pointed to "yes".
What question did you ask him next?
I asked him what his birthdate was, and he pointed
13 to the numbers that indicate what his birthdate was.
14
15
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Do you have a present memory of that birthdate?
Not without
Can you remember it right now?
No.
Did you enter it into your notes?
I should have.
Could you look and see if you -
Let's see -- It's not indicated.
Are there other charts that you fill out?
There is another -- You mean other charts?
Yeah.
I made another note.
Okay. Where -- the other note was actually a
27 contact that you had later with some neighbors; is that right?
28 A. Right.
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5926
Q. Was there present in the -- in the emergency room
with you a nurse by the name of Calvin Fisher?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you relay to Mr. Fisher the birthdate
information that you obtained from Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it his duty in the normal course of business
to take that down?
A. I wouldn't say normal duty, but if -- if at that
10 point if he served to be a person to communicate to, let's say,
11 a PBO, which is the person who makes up a face sheet or a chart,
12 yes.
13 Q. Well, do you know if Mr. Fisher himself was making
14 out -- making out a chart on young Josh at that point in time?
15
16
17
name,
A. A medical chart but not an information chart about
address, phone number, that type of thing.
Q. Does the patient's date of birth go on the medical
18 chart as well as the charts which have name, address --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you arrived at the hospital did you know the
21 name or age of young Josh?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. Did you attempt to obtain that information from
24 people there?
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
From people there? Yes.
And no one knew that at the time?
No one knew at the time.
First time that you learned of his name and date of
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5927
birth was when you yourself obtained it?
A. Right.
Q. Did -- did you also attempt to obtain his full
address?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Did you obtain his phone number?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you -- do you remember that right now?
A. Just from reading, just from looking at the chart.
Q. What but did you accurately put it into the
chart at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that phone number?
A. 627-4294.
Q. And was that phone number obtained in the same
manner as before with Josh
A. The· same
Q. pointing to numbers?
A. same manner.
Q. After for you had gotten the basic information as
to Josh's identity, did you did you then try and obtain some
information from Josh about what had happened to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to asking Josh himself questions, had you
attempted to get information from anybody other than Josh about
what had happened?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was that?
1
2
Q.
Q.
5928
It was a charge nurse and some of the officers.
Part of that information that you got from the
3 charge nurse and the officers was put in the report; is that
4 right?
5
6
A.
Q.
Yes.
In your report you specified the difference between
7 information that was obtained from other persons and the
8 information that was obtained from Josh himself; is that right?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10
11
12
13
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18
19 female?
20
21
22
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25
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
You have to say, "yes".
Yes.
Did you ask Josh how many people attacked him?
Yes.
How did he respond?
By pointing again to the numbers on the sheet.
Which number did he pOint to?
He pointed to "3", "4".
Did you ask Josh whether the attackers were male or
Yes, I did.
How did you do that?
I asked him if they were male.
And what did he point to on the chart?
He pointed to "yes".
Did you ask Josh any questions about the race or
26 ethnic background of the attackers?
27
28
A.
Q.
Yes, I did.
What questions did you ask him?
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5929
A. I asked him if they were Black.
Q. What did he point to?
A. He pointed to "no".
Q. What else did you ask him?
A. I asked him if they looked like me.
Q. What did he answer when you asked him that?
A. No, he pointed to "no".
Q. What is your ethnic background?
A. Hawaiian, which can include everything.
Q. In this particular society are you often mistaken
for any particular other ethnic group?
A. Yes, I am.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection irrelevant.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. What is that?
A. Mexican, Spanish.
Q. Did you then ask him any -- Josh another question
about -- about ethnic background?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
from Josh
Yes.
And what was that?
I asked him if -- if they were white.
And what did he -- how did he respond to that?
He pointed to "yes".
After -- after getting that particular information
By the way, did you enter that information in your
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5930
chart?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In your chart did you use the exact wording that
you had gotten in phrasing your questions to Josh or did you put
it into another language?
A. I put it into another language.
Q. What language did you use?
A. He was -- Well, he was referring to -- Well, skip
that.
He said White, or I pointed to White. I used
"Caucasian" instead of "White".
Q. Did you indicate .in your report, however, that the
information that you had obtained from Josh was through yes/no
questions?
A. Right.
Q. Did you attempt to gain from Josh some
understanding of when his injuries were inflicted?
of
A.
Q.
Josh?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, I did.
Can that information be important in the treatment
Yes.
What information -- how did you go about that?
Using the -- this clipboard method here.
What questions did you?
What questions did I ask?
I asked him it was day or night.
Q. And --
A. He pointed to "night".
""'''' •• T\r"rnnnTf7t':\T''\ mn"~1C'1,..,nTnm
1
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15
16
17
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20
21
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
time?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
to "no".
to "no".
5931
How did he point to "night"?
I mean -- I asked him if he was during the night.
Okay. And what did he -- what did he pOint to?
Put down "yes".
Did you then attempt to ask him a question about
Yes.
What question was that?
I asked him if it was after 12:00.
And what did he point to?
He pointed to "yes".
Did you then try and pinpoint it any further?
Yes, I did.
How did you do that?
I asked if it was 1:00 o'clock in the morning.
What did he point to?
He pointed to "no".
And then what did you do?
I went to 2:00 o'clock in the morning; he pOinted
I pointed to 3:00 o'clock in the morning; he pointed
I got the same response for 4:00. Then I said was it
22 5:00 o'clock in the morning, 4:00, 5:00, and he pointed to
23 "yes".
24 Q. So essentially through that method you narrowed it
25 down to somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00 in the morning?
26
27
A.
Q.
Yes.
After that did you attempt to find out only whether
28 or not Josh knew these people who attacked him?
3
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7
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9
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11
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13
14
5932
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in attempting to find that out, can you now
recall the precise questions that you asked him, that is, the
precise wording of your questions?
A. Vaguely, yeah.
Q. But could you give it word for word or would it
just have to be a general approximation?
A. Just a general, not word for word.
Q. Were you trying in your questioning of Josh to keep
the questions as simple as possible?
A. Yes.
Q. And to use as simple words as possible?
A. Yes.
Q. As best you can remember it now, what was the --
15 what questions did you ask him about that?
16 A. The questions were: "Have you seen these people
17 before?" And the next question was: "Do you know these
18
19
people?"
Q. What was the answer that you got to: "Had you seen
20 the people before?"
21 A. He pointed to "yes".
22 Q. And what was the answer that you got to: "Did you
23 know the people?"
24
25
26
27
28
A. He pointed to "no".
Q. Did you then attempt to continue on with that line
of questioning?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What happened at that point in time?
--•• """'.'I' __ ~ ____ "" ...... ~1Io.'I,..,,.,,.....,.T"'I"'
5933
1 A. I left the room.
2 Q. At that pOint in time when you were leaving the
3 room, did anybody else begin to question Josh?
4 A. What I recall is I think the sheriff that went on
5 in.
6 Q. Is that a plain-clothes person or an uniformed
7 person?
8
9
A.
Q.
I think a uniform person.
And did you observe that sheriff's deputy to be in
10 the actual process of questioning Josh?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
A. Not in the actual process, no.
Q. Where did you go at that point in time?
A. I went to the front desk to relay information to
the secretaries who were making the chart in terms of name and
birthdate and phone number.
Q. Did you have any further contact with young Josh
Ryen after that initial interview?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did Josh, as you were asking him questions, react
in such a way that you would have to repeat the question several
times in order to get an answer?
A. Yes, I did. Well, repeat to make sure I got the
same answers, let's put it that way, not to the point where he
was so confused or I felt that he was getting confused that I
had to ask it again; but I just wanted to make sure that it was
clarified for me so we have two answers.
Q. Okay. So yeu would repeat the question in order to
28 make sure that his response was the same each time?
I
2
A.
Q.
5934
Yeah, was consistent.
But did he like pause or hesitate, not answer
3 questions so that you had to come back and prompt him with a
4 second question?
5
6
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
Did during that particular -- during that
7 particular point in time -- Well, let me back up.
8 When was it that you prepared the report that you
9 have there in front of you on the witness stand?
10 A. Probably within the -- within the hour.
11 Q. During that period of time were you informed by the
12 Sheriff's Office that there was a particular person that would
13 be the person to contact for any questions about Josh?
14 A. Yes.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
Q.
A.
Q.
And whose name were you given?
Officer Arthur.
Now, after, after that contact with Josh, did any
law enforcement officers come to interview you within the next
couple of weeks or anything of that nature?
A. Yes.
Q.
A .•
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Who was that?
Ron Forbush.
The gentleman that's seated right in front of me?
Yes.
Do you remember exactly when he came to interview?
No.
Could it have been in October of -- Yes. Could it
28 have been in October of 1983?
..... ""' •• T"IIt.rTfT1M'I""\T 17r.tT'\. rn1"\7\ .,,.,,..nTnm
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28
A. Could have.
Q. And during that interview, did Mr. Forbush
essentially break it down into two parts: That is, first
interviewing you without benefit of your notes?
A. Yes.
5935
Q. And then after he did that, did he show you your
notes and again ask you what you could remember on the basis of
your notes?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to the remember more on the basis of
your notes than you were just without them?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you then, on approximately January the 4th
1984, interviewed by two members of the Sheriff's Department, a
Mr. Woods and Mr. O'Campo?
A. I don't remember their names but I was interviewed.
Q. That was again at the hospital.
A. Yes.
Q. Did they indicate to you their purpose for their
interview was to try and find out what you told Mr. Forbush?
A. Right.
Q. Last spring, May 15, I believe, did you testify in
a hearing in San Bernardino?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, prior to your testimony here today, did I
provide you with a copy of that transcript of that hearing?
A. Yes.
Q. And also a copy of the tape recorded or a
1
2
transcript of the recording with Mr. Forbush.
A. Yes.
3 Q. And Mr. Forbush tape recorded your particular
4 conversation.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the officer also did likewise.
7
8
9
A. Yes.
MR. NEGUS: Thank you. I have nothing further.
10 CROSS EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
5936
12 Q. Mr. Gamundoy, do you still work work for Lorna Linda
13 Medical University?
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Same type of job, clinical social worker?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You've related that your three basic goals were to
get the identity of the patient --
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
-- in your conversations with him.
Yes.
22 Q. In fact, as soon as you finished your conversation
23 you went and conveyed that information to the medical
24 secretaries.
25
26
27
28
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. However, the patient was continued to be identified
at Lorna Linda Medical Center as John Doe.
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
In fact the tag on his leg read "John Doe."
Yes.
And the computer records were all John Doe.
Yes.
For days after your conversation.
Yes.
The other one of the other reasons for your
5937
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
contact with Josh Ryen is so that you could contact relatives or
next of kin.
A. Yes. 10
11
12
13
14
Q. Who did you contact as far as relatives or next of
kin for Josh Ryen?
A. Urn, I did not.
Q. The third purpose in talking with Josh Ryen is to
15 be of possible assistance to relatives or staff as a result of
16 their experience.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you did have contact with a friend, a Karen
19 Reiner later on that evening, didn't you?
20 A. I can't remember her name. But if that's who it
21 was.
22 Q. We'll come back to her, maybe describe her in a
23 different way.
24 At least you do recall having contact with someone
25 that was a friend or relative of Josh Ryen the night that you
26 had this conversation.
27
28
A.
Q.
Yes.
You received a phone call at home from the charge
--- ... _ ........ __ .... __ ..... PI""I_ .... ~,..,.,'I"'t.,..'t"'\"'
1
2
3
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7
8
nurse.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Who also happened to be your wife.
At this time, yes.
At this time, at that time.
Well, at that time we weren't married.
Close friend though.
Close friend.
9 Q. I guess all I'm trying to say is it sounds so
5938
10 official when I say charge nurse you knew who you were talking
11 to.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did she give you any information over the phone as
14 to what you could expect? In other words, what was coming in.
15 A. Yes.
16
17
Q.
gave you?
Can you recall the general description that she
18 A. She stated that we were receiving a helicoptor
19 patient, probably a male within the ages of probably 7, 8, 9,
20 who was involved in a multi-murder, and they weren't sure if
21 these were relatives or siblings or friends of this patient.
22 Q. Now, although you are a clinical social worker and
23 have had contact in the past in performing that function, had
24 you ever had contact with a survivor of a multiple murder?
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, I have.
At that time as of June, 1983?
Yes.
And in your training or experience as of June of
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26 ~;
27
28
5939
1983, had you been trained in regard to how to interview those
kinds of survivors?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Had you ever attempted to interview the survivor of
a multiple murder for the purpose of getting information about
the crime itself?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And when I say nabout the crimen, we're not so much
concerned with the fact that they received injuries but how the
crime happened or who the suspects were.
A. Yes.
Q. On how many occasions before June of 1983?
A. Right off, I don't know, but I would say more than
twenty, twenty-five.
Q. Twenty or twenty-five occasions you have
interviewed a survivor of a mass murder?
A. Oh, no, I have not of a mass murder.
Q. That is the question.
A. Okay.
Q. How many times before June of 1983 had you
interviewed the survivor of a multiple homicide at the hospital
in conjunction with your work?
A. None.
Q. Other than the charge nurse, the lady who was to
become your wife, who asked you to question Josh Ryen?
A. No one asked me.
Q. You volunteered?
A. Urn, in the scope of, you know, what I felt was my
5940
1 duty.
Q. You really weren't on duty at that time.
A. I was on call to the emergency department.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
Q. But it wasn't an emergency room person that called
you to come down.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. The charge nurse?
A. The charge nurse.
Q. Now, one of the areas of information before you
10 talked to Josh Ryen was conversations that you had with
11 paramedics; is that correct?
A. I can't remember. 12
13 Q. Well, did you stop outside the emergency room
14 before going in to talk to anyone?
15
16
A.
Q.
Not that I remember.
Did you listen to Deputy Sharp talk to any of the
17 paramedics outside the emergency room?
18
19
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
Where did you get the information that Josh Ryen
20 had been the victim of a gunshot?
21 A. From my wife, Marion, the charge nurse at that
22 time.
23 Q. Did you see any injuries on Josh that to you
24 appeared consistent with being a gunshot wound?
25
26
A.
Q.
No, I did not see.
Yet you put in your hospital report that Josh Ryen
27 was the victim of a gunshot wound.
28 A. Yes.
5941
1 Q. Did you check Josh Ryen's chart before you made any
2 questions of him?
3
4
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
During the time that you first went in to contact
5 Josh, did you form mentally an impression of the type of
6 injuries that Josh was suffering from?
7
8
A.
Q.
Yes, I did.
And as you surveyed the scene you calculated
9 whether or not you could ask him questions
10
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
-- safely.
Yes.
Was that a very close decision in your mind as to
14 whether it was safe to ask Josh Ryen questions?
15 No. A.
Q. 16 Well, you could see that he had some treatment to
17 his skull.
18 Uh-huh. A.
Q. 19 He was bandaged?
A.
Q. 21 He was bandaged in the head.
22 Yes. A.
23 It is normal of a victim of head trauma to have Q.
24 difficulty communicating, isn't that true?
25 A. Depending on the extent of the head trauma.
26 Q. Well, normally, when you see a victim in the
27 emergency room they treat the most serious injuries first, don't
28 they?
5942
A. Yes. 1
2 Q. And as far as you could see Josh Ryen had already
3 had his head treated.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Which would indicate that that was a serious injury
6 as opposed to a casual bump on the head.
7
8
A.
Q.
I wouldn't know, that would be a medical judgment.
And you were involved in making medical judgments
9 as to whether or not Josh Ryen could be interviewed.
10 A. I don't know if you'd call it a medical judgment.
11 I guess so, yes.
12 Q. Well, in addition to seeing the bandage on his
13 head, you saw, you could tell that Josh Ryen had a collapsed
14 lung.
15
16
17
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I couldn't tell.
Were efforts being made to put a pump in place?
I have no idea.
Were you concerned about that?
If he had -- he had a collapsed lung, sure, I would
20 be concerned about that.
21 Q. Well, a collapsed lung causes labored breathing,
22 doesn't it?
23 A. I would think so.
24 Q. Something that you can hear.
25 A. Something that I could hear?
26 Q. Yes.
27 A.! think that would be a medical judgment.
28 Q. Could you hear any labored breathing from Josh
Ryen?
A.
Q.
Hear ~abored breathing?
Yes.
5943
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
A. Not that I, you know, I was aware then. It wasn't
one of my focuses. I wasn't even directing my attention to
whether he was having labored breathing or not, so at that time
I wasn't assessing for labored breathing.
Q. Josh Ryen had his throat cut.
A. Yes.
10 Q. Couldn't talk.
11 A. Couldn't talk.
12 Q. Did he have a tube inserted in his throat area?
13 A. From what I observed, yes.
14 Q. Did he appear to be suffering from loss of blood?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Was he responsive to pain?
17 A. He was responsive to pain.
18 Q. In what way?
19 A. Where they drew blood he would twitch.
20 Q. What about the IV's, were the IV's in place when
21 you arrived?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Did he appear to be showing you no emotion?
24 A. I think he did show emotion.
25 Q. In what way?
26 A. Urn, facial expressions.
27 Q. Did he cry?
28 A. He did.
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22
23
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26 ~--
27
28
5944
Q. During what form of the interview did he cry; what
part of it?
A. I think nonspecifical1y at any part, except that,
you know, a tear came to several times when I tried to
communicate to him.
Q. Did he appear to be suffering from shock?
A. I have no idea.
Q. His arms, both of them had IV's in them.
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Were both arms taped to boards?
A. I don't know if both arms were, but I know one was.
Q. Did you tell Officer O'Campo, in January of 1984,
" ••• that he had IV's in his arms, and we had, you know, those
boards so he couldn't really bend so he would just have to raise
his arms and point with the board attached."
A. Yes.
Q. SO that at least as far as trying to use your chart
there was some difficulty because there was a board underneath
the arm holding it up to allow the IV to stick into it.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if there was any bleeding to Josh's
brain?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know if there was any subdural air
collection?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know what drugs had been administered, if
any?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No, I don't.
Did he appear to be suffering from fatigue?
Yes.
Did he appear to be suffering?
Yes.
Was his color poor?
Poor in the sense that he did look pale.
5945
Now, during the time that you were talking to Josh,
9 would he literally drift out of consciousness?
10 A. Would he?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
Q. Yes.
A. I wasn't aware of that when I had been talking with
him.
Q. Well, did his eyes close and he just appear to
literally leave his consciousness?
A. When he closed his eyes, I am not sure if that was
just a blink or actually leaving.
Q. Possibly even short sleep as opposed to
unconsciousness.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Possibly.
Did a student nurse ask some questions?
Student nurse? Not that I am aware of.
About allergies.
I know the student physician.
Did a student physician ask any questions.
Yes.
About allergies?
About allergies.
,..._ •• '1"'110 ......... _~_..,'1""'1_ ~T"II. ..... "I'_,... ....... ,..T"\""
1
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5946
Q. Let's talk for just a moment, Mr. Gamundoy, about
the scene in that room as you tried to ask the questions or
communicate with Josh.
A.
Q.
Uh-huh. Yes.
Does the emergency room that Josh was in have space
6 for more than one patient at a time?
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
A. Yes.
Q. Was there another patient in the emergency room
while Josh was being taken care of?
A. Not that I was aware of.
Q. And you wouldn't necessarily know because they
partition off the various rooms with curtains?
A. Not necessarily.
14 Q. Do you have any idea whether the curtains were
15 closed on other portions of that particular emergency room?
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. Oh that emergency room, yes. Yes.
Q. The persons that were there, in addition to Josh --
when I say nthere n I mean inside the emergency room, not
outside, but inside, in other words, within the view of Josh or
within touching distance, I'm just trying to make sure we only
talk about the people that are right in the general area of
where everything is going on.
A. Right.
Q. You had surgeons.
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. At least one.
Q. Do you know if there was more than one?
-- ... -- .... ---- - -- .-_ .. "''''''''I'''Io.,.T''\rn
5947
1 A. Not that I was aware of. They usually corne with
2 maybe a resident, you know, chief, or several other, you know,
3 like a sophomore or freshman resident.
4 Q. Well, do you know the name of the surgeon?
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No, I don't.
There was an x-ray technician.
Yes.
Do you know the name of the x-ray technician?
No, I don't.
A respitory therapist.
Yes.
Do you know that person's name?
No, I don't know that name.
Was there an anesthesiologist?
Yes.
Do you know that person's name?
No, I don't.
Was there an emergency department nurse?
Yes.
Q. Do you know that person's name?
A. Calvin Fischer.
Q. That's the gentleman that you referred to just a
moment ago in direct examination.
A. Yes.
Q. Were there more than one emergency department nurse
26 present during the time that you were there?
27 A. I don't know.
28 Q. And of course you were there.
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25
also?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I was there.
Was your wife the charge nurse there?
Yes.
And you say two Sheriff's deputies in uniform.
At least.
At least. Maybe more?
More, possibly. They were in and out, and --
5948
In that emergency room area as opposed to outside?
I remember two.
All right. Plain clothes detective?
I remember two.
Two plain clothes detectives in the emergency room?
Right.
Several student physicians.
Yes.
How many?
One. One other.
Do you recall the name of the student physician?
No, I don't.
That was the person that asked about the allergies?
Yes.
Were there several respitory therapists present
I only know of the one or remember the one person.
I left one word out. Were there several student
26 respitory therapists there?
27 A. No.
28 Q. None at all?
5949
A. None at all. 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
Q. Any other persons present at that point in time
while you were asking the questions of Josh Ryen?
A. No.
Q. While you were talking to Josh the treatment
continues; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It doesn't stop while you ask a question.
A. Exactly.
10 Q. Movements are being made and so on in regard to his
11 body and --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You mentioned at one point in conversations with
14 investigators that a cassette was being placed under his bottom.
15 What were you testifying --
16 A. X-ray cassette. X-ray film that is used.
17 Q. SO, if he was being lifted up so that they could
18 put that x-ray film underneath him and take the x-ray while you
19 were with questioning him --
20
21
22
23
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
-- that provided considerable discomfort for Josh.
Yes.
Did Josh have any apparent difficulty with eye
24 coordination while you talked with him?
25 A. He didn't appear to me.
26 Q. How long did your questions take?
27 A. Urn, probably about 15, 20 minutes, no longer than a
28 half an hour.
1
2
3
4
5950
Q. During the questioning process, with all these
people around, was the scene one of confusion?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there yelling by a variety of people, do this,
5 or get that done, or make preparations in the CAT Scan room, I
6 order such and such?
7
8
A.
Q.
Yes.
Was there an extremely high noise level inside that
9 emergency room?
10 A. Not that I'm aware of. But then again, you must
11 also understand I work down there, so normal yelling and
12 screaming, I could think that is normal for ER, for emergency
13 rooms, so
14
15
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Q.
A.
Especially with an emergency of this nature.
Yes.
Q. The primary concern of everybody there, including
yourself, is to let Josh Ryen survive the attack.
A. Yes.
Q. Were a lot of people asking questions all at the
same time?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. In fact, sometimes even the people who were working
on Josh would look over at you and say things like, "Ask him
about mustaches." Is that true?
A. Ask him about mustaches?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know.
Q. Were they shouting questions to you to ask?
1
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5
5951
A. Yes.
Q. Emergency people and even the officers themselves
would be asking Josh if he knew people; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. At one point he'd say yes, another point he'd say
6 no to virtually the same question.
7
8
9
10
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
You took no notes at that time.
No, I didn't take any notes.
And you recall only the general wording of the
11 questions.
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A. Yes.
Q. Speaking of the questions, when you questioned
him -- first of all, in regard to blink your eyes to answer the
question. I believe you described that you had difficulty with
that because he kept closing his eyes on you for what appeared
to be reasons other than the giving of a yes answer.
A. Right.
Q. And you're not sure whether it was something in his
eye, fatigue, dryness of the eyes, consciousness, you have no
idea, they just closed.
A. Exactly.
Q. Can you illustrate for us the questions that you
asked him at that point in time that you were getting
inappropriate answers to?
A. The questions were -- well, I told him what I was
planning on doing in terms of the yes-no eye blinking, and all
that, and I asked him if he understood what I was saying, what I
,.. __ •• 'I""\,r ....... __ ,..r7M'r"\. 1"nT"'\'Il'l.."r-.,..nTnm
5952
1 interpreted was a yes by blinking his eyes. He also gave
2 several others, too. So, at this pOint, well, this was really
3 not a reliable tool.
4 Q. So you only asked that preparatory type of a
5 question, you never got to the additional questions about maybe
6 his name, or date of birth, or anything such as that.
7
8
A.
Q.
Right.
The second method that you tried was having him
9 write on a piece of paper attached to a clipboard.
10 Yes. A.
11 You could not even read his name. Q.
A.
Q. 13 Was his name the only thing that he wrote?
14
15
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17
18 name?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I think so. Also with a birthdate.
Could you read the birthdate?
No.
Did he write his first and last name or just first
19 First and last name. A.
20 And then finally we got to the method of Q.
21 questioning just to describe with the piece of paper on the
22 board, having him raise his right or his left hand to --
23
24
A.
Q.
Right arm.
Was there any particular way for Josh to
25 communicate to you that he did not understand the question?
26 A. Only at the beginning where I told him what I was
27 going to do.
28 Q. But once the question had been asked, if you didn't
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understand it, virtually his choices were one letter of the
alphabet, a number or a yes or a no.
A. Yes.
5953
Q. Now, in your first series of questions you got his
name, Josh Ryen, you don't know for sure whether you got the
date of birth.
A. I would have -- No, I'm not sure. But we had to
have it to make a chart.
Q. Well, of course, people are admitted all the time
without knowing their date of birth through the emergency room,
aren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. But in -- you got it, that is fine, if you didn't
that wouldn't cause everything come to a stop.
A. Right.
Q. Might for the insurance companies but as far as
getting Josh in the hospital, no problem~
A. Right.
Q. The phone number that you have related to us. Did
you ask him his address?
A. I am not sure.
Q. Is that a consideration for the hospital records1
is that of some concern, like date of birth?
A. Not as importantly.
Q. SO that's not necessarily a normal part of your
routine as far as dealing with incoming patients?
A. You mean in terms of asking addresses?
Q. Yes. Of people in Josh's condition.
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5954
A. No.
Q. During the time that you are asking this initial
information, his name, date of birth, phone number, address, I
assume you asked date of birth.
Was the uniformed officer taking notes?
A. I don't remember.
Q. After you asked those particular questions did you
stop the questioning process?
A. Which group of questions were you talking about?
Q. The name, address, phone number, date of birth,
group of questions, the identification information.
A. Did I stop?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever see a deputy Sheriff use a hand
squeeze method to get information from Josh Ryen?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever see Deputy Dale Sharp ask questions of
Josh Ryen?
A. First of all, I don't know who Deputy Dale Sharp
is, I saw an officer asking questions. That was all.
Q. Did you see a gentleman with blond, reddish hair
outside the courtroom this morning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you recognize him?
A. I recognized him from the hearing.
Q. But beyond the hearing in court, you don't
recognize him from his participation in the questioning of Josh.
1
2
A.
Q.
5955
No, I don't.
Your particular sequence of questions after you
3 finished the identifying information, did you talk about time
4 first?
5
6
A.
Q.
Yes. I remember.
And here I'm just trying to get your best
7 recollection, did you talk about time.
8
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20
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
What was the next area you discussed with Josh?
What I remember I think is how many.
And after how many?
Nationality. And gender.
Excuse me?
Gender.
And anything after that?
If he had seen these people before; if he knew who
these people were.
Q. And that was where you have concluded your
conversations with Josh.
A. Yes.
Q. As far as the time, you asked Josh starting with,
21 was it day or evening?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You asked him was it day?
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Answer, no?
Yes.
Was it evening?
Yes.
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5956
Q. Answer, yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And when we say "answer", he's pointing; he's just
pOinting to yes or no.
A. Right.
Q. I'm not trying to -- On your chart, is it possible
that the "yes" is where the "no" is and the "no" is where the
"yes" is?
A. Possible.
Q. And the reason I ask is that it would be easier,
wouldn't it, to point to the "yes" than it would be to point to
the "no" for someone who has IV's in their arm and it's attached
to a board if the word "yes" is on the right side of the page?
A. Depending where I held the board.
Q. But you're not sure which side the "yes" or "no"
was on?
A. No, I'm not sure.
Q. You asked Josh if it was after 12:00 that the
attack occurred?
A. Yes.
Q. And his answer?
A. Was "yes".
Q. You asked him if he was still dark?
A. Yes.
Q. And his answer?
A. Was "yes".
Q. Then you went through, was it 1:00 and so on?
A. Yes. Yes.
5957
1 Q. You stated in direct examination that you think
2 that he landed somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00 a.m.?
3
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
Did you ask him was it 4:30 or a specific time?
I can't remember.
And, of course, none of the questioning related to:
7 "How did you know what time it is?"?
8 A. No.
9
10
11
12
Q.
there?"?
A.
Q.
You also asked then the question: "How many were
Yes.
Is that the best approximation of the form of the
13 question?
14
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18
19
20
A.
Q.
A.
As far as I can remember.
The simple words: "How many were there?"?
Yes.
Q. In fact, you were extremely careful, weren't you,
Mr. Gamundoy to avoid using the term "attacker"?
A. Yes.
Q. You consciously made an effort not to use the word
21 "attacker"?
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
Consciously made?
Yes.
I don't know. I wasn't thinking to myself saying,
25 "No, I should not use the words 'attackers' or 'assailants' or
26 anything like that."
27 Q. Well, you didn't want to push Josh further into
28 shock, did you?
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10
A.
Q.
murders that
conversation?
A.
Q.
consciousness
murder scene?
A.
Q.
That wasn't my intent.
You didn't necessarily want him to relive the
had just survived, did you, in your he
No.
You weren't trying to bring that level of
up to his mind that would put him back at the
Yes, according to my questions, yes.
Well, did you ask him specifically: "How many
5958
11 people did you see?"?
12
13
14
15
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
In that general questioning, yes.
You did not use the term "attackers"?
As far as I can remember, no.
The reason I ask that is, you heard the question on
16 direct from the defense attorney wherein he said, "Did you ask
17 how many people attacked you?" You didn't use the word
18 "attacked"?
19 A. I don't think so. I don't think I remember -- I
20 don't think I remember using the word "attackers".
21 Q. "Were your attackers male?" You didn't use the
22 word "attacker"?
23
24
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
"What were the ethnic background of the attackers?"
25 Didn't use "attackers" in that context?
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Those were just words from the defense attorney?
That's a question?
--..................... ~ ..... r7,..,T"'IIo rnn"'."I""I"nTnm
1
2
3
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
Yes.
5959
And nothing similar to that term was used in your
4 conversations with Josh?
5
6
A.
Q.
Not that I remember.
"How many were there?" And he pointed to "3", I
7 believe you told us?
8
9
A.
Q.
Yes.
When you asked that question Josh didn't hold up
10 three fingers, did he?
11
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20
to
him
A.
Q.
hold up
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
In fact, it would have been very difficult for him
three fingers with the board attached to his arm?
Uh-huh.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Did you tell Mr. Forbush in your conversations with
that Josh told you that there were two or three people?
A. I can't remember.
Q. The only way that you have of knowing how many
21 people he told you was the report that you have in front of you,
22 the one or two lines that relate to the questions you asked?
23
24
A.
Q.
Uh-huh, yes.
Outside of that particular report, which also has
25 within it "gunshot wounds", today do you have any recollection
26 of what number Josh Ryen pointed to when you asked him how many?
27
28
A.
Q.
Gunshot wounds?
I'm saying outside of the hospital report --
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5960
A. Right.
Q. -- talks in terms of gunshot wounds, and the
three
MR. NEGUS: Objected to. I think that's argumentative.
It doesn't talk --
THE COURT: No. Overruled.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Outside of the hospital report --
A. Right.
Q. -- do you have any recollection today the number
that Josh Ryen pointed to when you asked him the question: "How
many?"?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you don't even really recall of your own
recollection that you asked him if the people were male or
female?
A. I remember asking him.
Q. Well, did you tell Mr. Forbush that you don't
remember asking if they were male or female?
A. I don't remember.
Q. But you did ask: "Were they Black?"?
A. Yes.
Q. And the question was literally that simple: "Were
they Black?"?
A. Yes.
Q. And he pOinted to "no"?
A. Right.
Q. "Did they look like me?"?
5961
----~,
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "No."?
3 A. "No."
4 Q. "Were they Caucasian, White?"?
5 A. I remember saying, "White".
6 Q. He pointed to "yes"?
7 A. He pointed to "yes".
8' Q. But you never asked him if the people he saw were
9 Mexican?
10 A. No, I never asked him that.
11 Q. You did get into a conversation with him, though,
12 about: "Have you seen these people before?"
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that's when everything starts to break down as
15 far as your understanding of his trying to communicate with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Because, in effect, you asked him: "Have you seen
18 these people before?" And he says, "Yes."?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And to you that meant that he probably knew them,
21 correct?
22 A. I assume so.
23 Q. But yet the next question you ask is: "Do you know
24 these peop1e?n?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And his answer was "no"?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. You also asked a series of questions that went
5962
1 beyond that particular exchange or did you stop right --
2 A. I stopped.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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11
Q. Right at that point?
A. As far as I can remember, yes, I stopped.
Q. Because if he had said that he had seen the people
before but yet said that he didn't know them, it appears that
something's wrong in this exchange?
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
It appeared inconsistent to you?
Yes.
You never attempted to clarify the inconsistencies
12 . wi th him?
13
14
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
Did Josh's face show puzzlement as you tried to
15 talk to him?
16
17
18
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And can you describe for us what you mean by
"puzzlement"?
A. Facial expressions.
Q. What kind of --
A. Wrinkling the forehead.
Q. During your conversation did he ever shrug his
shoulders like, "I don't know."?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. During the conversation the ideas that you got were
strictly limited to the type of question that you've related to
us; there was no extra information that you were getting from
outside sources?
",_'11..-. ..... ..,., __ ..... __ ....... rt'11""1o" 1L,"'''''r'\.T nrn
1
2
A.
Q.
5963
Right.
And by that, I mean you didn't talk to Dr. Howell,
3 you didn't talk to anyone else that was associated with Josh
4 Ryen
5
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
NO.
-- before writing your report?
Right.
Did you talk to Deputy Sharp later on about the
9 information that he may have had?
10
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Not that I can remember.
By later on, I mean that night.
No, not that I remember.
Did you have an opportunity to talk to a lady that
14 evening that appeared upset?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. She had been wandering around trying to get in to
17 Josh's room?
18 A.
19
20
hospital?
21
22
23 care?
24
25
26
27
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
You mean in the emergency department or in the
No. This is in the hospital itself.
Yes.
Josh at some point in time was sent to intensive
Yes.
And guards put on his door?
Yes.
And at least you had the opportunity to be in the
28 general area where Josh was being cared for?
__ "._." __ Y"'Io.~ ___ 1'T'II'I""I.'Il1lo.""'''T'''lTnrn
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5964
A. Only in the emergency department.
Q. Did you come across a lady during the evening hours
of Sunday, June the 5th, that you talked to and asked if she
needed a ride home?
A. I remember coming across such a lady, but I don't
remember asking her if she needed a ride home.
Q. In your conversations with the lady, did she tell
talk she had babysat for Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. She was carrying a stuffed animal?
A. Yes.
Q. She wanted to make sure that Josh knew there was
somebody that was close to him that was there at the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. She wanted to get the stuffed animal to Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. In your conversations with her, did you tell her
that Josh had said that there were three Mexicans that had been
at the house?
A. I don't remember telling her that.
Q. After Josh's arrival, were there a lot of rumors
that were going around the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, Josh became literally the topic of rumor
conversation within Lorna Linda Medical University after he got
there?
A. Yes.
Q. There was everything imaginable being said and
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5965
attributed to reliable sources?
A. That's what I hear.
Q. Can you give us some illustrations of the kinds of
rumors about Josh, information that went through that hospital.
MR. NEGUS: Objection. I believe that all the rumors
that went through there are probably irrelevant, and I object.
The whole thing is irrelevant.
MR. KOTTMEIER: That's fine, your Honor. I will withdraw
the question. It might be a good time for a recess.
THE COURT: You have further cross?
MR. KOTTMEIER: I don't think so, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have redirect?
MR. NEGUS: I have a little bit of redirect if I could.
THE COURT: Let's go ahead and finish.
MR. NEGUS: That's what I would like to do, so Mr.
Gamundoy can be on his way.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Mr. Gamundoy, I'm showing you first Exhibit 698,
and ask if that is the second report that you referred to that
you filled out on June the 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that report typed up at a time later than
the first report which described your conversation with Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you note on that particular report the time
that you typed it?
5966
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What time was that?
3 A. 1700 which is 5:00 o'clock.
4 Q. Okay. Now that report describes contacts that you
5 had with two people that knew Josh. Is that the same set of
6 people that you were talking about with Mr. Kottmeier or a
7 different set?
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28
A. I think they were the same set.
Q. Did you have contact with more than one group of
people who were concerned about Josh or just one set?
A. I remember one group very distinctly, but I can't
remember if the -- if this other person came alone.
Q. Did you, in asking your questions of Josh, did you
ever ask questions like: nDid you know their name of the people
that were involved in the attack?n?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever ask questions like: nCould you
identify them?n?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever try and ask questions which might make
sense of the two answers he gave, such as, nCould you identify
them but don't know their names?" Any questions along those
lines?
A. No. No.
Q. At the time that you ceased questioning, did the
uniformed deputy come in and start questioning right away?
A. ~es.
Q. Is that one of the reasons why you stopped
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5967
questioning?
A. Yes, one of the reasons.
Q. Showing you Exhibit 699, does that appear to be a
document of the type that's prepared at the Lorna Linda
University Medical Center?
A. On a consult note, yes.
Q. Okay. Now what does that -- can you describe what
that document is?
A. It's a neurosurgery consult done by neurosurgery.
Q. And is that particular report done of Josh Ryen?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did -- do you recognize the person that prepared
that report?
A. I recognize the signatures.
Q. Okay.
A. One signature.
Q. Which signature do you recognize?
A. Dr. Shahhal.
Q. Dr. Shahhal is a neurosurgeon?
A. Yes.
Q. And as such he would be a person who specializes in
dealing with the type of head injury or complications from the
head injury that Josh appeared to have?
A. Yes.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection. Improper foundation.
THE COURT: Yes, I will sustain the objection. The
answer is stricken; the jurors admonished to disregard the
answer.
5968
1 BY MR. NEGUS:
2 Q. Is Dr. Shahhal -- Are you familiar with the general
3 assignment of medical personnel within the hospital?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
General assignments?
Yes.
To a degree.
Are you familiar with the duties of a neurosurgeon?
No.
Q. Do you recognize the name -- there's another name
that appears with Dr. Shahhal's signature: do you recognize that
persons name?
A. No, I don't.
Q. There's -- there's a series of letters that seem to
be something like I-V-M-C: do you know what that stands for?
A. Uh-huh, it would be the "fourth.n nM_Sn stands for
medical student. So it would be fourth year in his training.
Q. SO, that would be -- that person would be a medical
student of some sort?
A. Yes.
Q. And in the normal course, Lorna Linda in addition to
21 being a major trauma center, is also a teaching hospital: is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. SO when neurosurgeons come to treat people they
25 bring their students with them?
26 A. They may.
27
28
Q.
A.
Sometimes?
Yeah. I don't know if they bring, but, you know,
5969
1 they are in the hospital and they show up because they carry the
2 same type of beeper system.
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25
Q. And the purpose of the medical student is sometimes
to make notes of what the doctor is doing and also to learn?
A. Yes.
Q. Now showing you Exhibit 700, do you recognize what
that particular document is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the log notes for a trauma patient, nursing
notes.
Q. Can you tell us from that particular document who
prepared that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Calvin Fisher.
Q. And does that again appear to be the -- the -- a
document concerning Josh Ryen?
A. Yes.
Q. In addition to the name of RJohn DoeR down at the
bottom of that document, does it also have to the right of that
the name RJosh RyenR?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to you look at the back side of the
document, and there's an entry at 1423 prepared by Mr. by Mr.
26 Fisher, that's 2:23 in the afternoon.
27 MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection, your Honor. Insufficient
28 foundation.
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5970
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Well, in hospital medical records did you use
military time?
A. Yes.
Q. And so if this is a time --
MR. KOTTMEIER: My objection, your Honor, is not directed
as to whether it's military or hospital or standard time.
My objection is to the fact that there's no
foundation as far as the accuracy of this particular document,
and to try and refresh this witness' recollection absent a
foundation would be improper.
MR. NEGUS: Last I heard,- in order to refresh
recollection you don't need any sort of foundation. I will,
however, warrant that Mr. Fisher is going to be flown in here
and I will have him on Thursday and
THE COURT: Then you don't need to get it from this
witness, sir.
MR. NEGUS: But I wish to --
THE COURT: If you are going to be much longer, Mr.
Negus, we will take the recess.
MR. NEGUS: Perhaps we -- Okay. Let's -- perhaps we
should discuss this, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We will take the morning recess,
ladies and gentlemen. Remember the admonition, please.
MR. NEGUS: Could you remain so we can discuss it?
THE COURT: Let's take it up in chambers.
5971
1 (Chambers conference concluded.)
2 THE COURT: The defendant and counsel are present in
3 chambers out of the presence of the jury.
4 MR. NEGUS: Your Honor, last I heard you can show any
5 document whatsoever without --
6 THE COURT: To refresh memory, you're correct on that;
7 but I hope you don't envision trying to get in the medical
8 records to the jury in this case. You don't have that in mind,
9 do you?
10 MR. NEGUS: Just the ones that I'm talking about.
11 THE COURT: Even those?
12 MR. NEGUS: Well, I certainly do. I mean, because they
13 are taken in the course of business and, you know, they are a
14 perfect -- I'm laying a foundation for each of them.
15 THE COURT: You have got witnesses to testify to the
16 matter stated.
17 MR. NEGUS: But the thing is, there's more weight to
18 having the medical records in and there's no reason not to have
19 the medical records in. I mean, it's perfectly legitimate.
20 1--
21 MR. KOTTMEIER: Well, we've shifted off of our original
22 purpose for being here.
23 THE COURT: All right. There was an objection when he
24 tried to read the time of day, apparently, and your objection is
25 what?
26 MR. KOTTMEIER: My objection, your Honor, is that the
27 next step that we're going to get: "Well, according to this the
28 information that Calvin Fisher took was," and what is occurring
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5972
is virtually a shifting from recollection refreshing to a: 1
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"Well, here, read this and tell us what it says." And then:
"You agree with that, don't you?"
MR. NEGUS: The next question was going to be First of
all, I just wanted to establish that at 1423 he was, in fact,
6 questioning Josh. That seems like a reasonable type thing to
7 ask him.
8 MR. KOTTMEIER: Except this that this witness doesn't
9 know what time it is.
10 MR. NEGUS: Well, he knows basically what time.
11 THE COURT: He got a call I thought at 2:30.
12 MR. NEGUS: He said 2:10 and he is four miles away, so
13 that's just about the time that he would be down there asking
14 his first questions.
15 And then I was just going to ask him to read to
16 himself the entry, ask him if that refreshes his recollection
17 about did he get a date of birth from Josh, and if so, does it
18 refresh his recollection about what the date of birth is. If
19 not, I've already established --
20 THE COURT: Counsel, why are you struggling? You all
21 would stipulate to his date of birth, I'm sure.
22 MR. NEGUS: The significance of Josh's date of birth is
23 that Josh was conscious, alert, aware enough to give an accurate
24 date of birth.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
26 MR. KOTTMEIER: And the content of that date of birth is
27 going to have to come through Calvin Fisher, not by doctor --
28 excuse me, Mr. Gamundoy reading Calvin Fisher's notes saying
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that: "Oh, yes, that's what Calvin Fisher would say so I will
say the same thing."
MR. NEGUS: I'm allowed to ask him those questions and
see how he responds. We have police read the reports in the
record.
MR. KOTTMEIER: If this was Mr. Gamundoy's report, you
wouldn't hear any complaint from me.
THE COURT: No, counsel. He can ask him: "Does that
refresh your memory?" If he says that it does as to his date of
birth, then he can relate that before the jury.
If that's the nature of your objection, I will
overrule your objection.
Anything further.
MR. KOCHIS: Not at this time.
THE COURT: All right. At another time we will take up
the nature when you request to actually put document into
evidence.
Okay. Take a recess.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Negus.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Mr. Gamundoy, getting back to at 2:23 in the
afternoon. Would that have been approximately the time that you
were starting to get information from Josh Ryen about his name
and date of birth?
A. Yes.
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Q. I've showed you a document prepared by Mr. Fischer,
which gives some information of that sort.
Does that -- would you be able to independently
give us Josh's date of birth without sort of reading it from
that document?
A. No.
Q. But you did relay the information along to Mr.
Fischer.
A. Yes.
Q. The tags that Mr. Kottmeier asked you about, that
is, the tag in this particular case on Josh's chart that says
"John Doe", how is that particular tag prepared?
A. That particular -- you mean the plate itself?
Q. Yeah. The plate.
A. The plate is made in the emergency department.
Q. Okay. Is it uncommon if you have somebody coming
in as a John Doe and you find out that their true name, what
their true name is, to have the John Doe tag continue along with
them for a period of time?
A. It continues, yes.
Q. What does it take to change it?
A. Urn, the people in the admitting office would make a
separate name plate and send it to the unit where the patient
is.
Q. That would then become substituted?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. Added?
A. It would be added.
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5975
Q. And does that take a particular period of days and
times to occur?
A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. In terms of your asking questions about what
happened to Josh, in your report you indicated that the first
sentence you had was you indicated the assault took place in the
early morning hours; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, at this pOint in time can you recall whether
or not you used the word "assault" or "what happened to you" or
"how was the injury inflicted", can you recall which of the
different words you were using?
A. No, I can't.
Q. You indicated at the end of your conversation with
Josh, when you began, when you began getting answers that you
didn't understand about whether he knew the people or not, at
that point in time in your mind Josh's answers appeared to be
confused; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. During the time that you were asking Josh about the
time of the assault, and who the people were that were
responsible or who the people were, did you see any evidence
that Josh was confused about his answers?
A. No.
Q. Did you, in your own mind, have any doubt that he
was talking about the people that attacked him?
A. No.
MR. NEGUS: Thank you. I have nothing further.
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5976
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Mr. Gamundoy, you asked him the question, "Do you
know who did this?"
no.
A. Yes.
Q. And his answer at one time was yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And when you tried to follow it up the answer was
A. Yes.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Nothing else?
MR. NEGUS: Nothing else.
THE COURT: All right, thank you, Mr. Gamundoy. You are
free to leave. Your next witness.
MR. NEGUS: Dale Sharp.
ERVIN DALE SHARP,
called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
THE CLERK: Thank you. Have a seat on the witness stand,
please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell it, please.
THE WITNESS: Ervin Dale Sharp. E-r-v-i-n, D-a-l-e,
S-h-a-r-p.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
,.,,... •• T"\r"rn1":1n T no 1':1'" rnn 1\ 'tt.'TC"I""nT nm
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5977
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Mr. Sharp, what is your occupation?
A. Deputy Sheriff.
Q. And for whom do you work?
A. San Bernardino County.
Q. How long have you been a deputy Sheriff?
A. Approximately six and a half years.
Q. Were you working on June 5th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your assignment on that particular day in
June?
A. I was assigned to patrol division that particular
day, assigned to the Lorna Linda area.
Q. Lorna Linda is a city which contracts for its police
work with our Sheriff's Department; is that correct?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
seven.
Yes, sir.
And what shift were you working that day?
Day shift.
How many officers work that shift?
That exact day, I can't recall. On a normal shift,
Q. If not, all those seven people would be assigned to
Lorna Linda; is that right?
A. No, sir.
Q. But if something important were to happen in Lorna
Linda, would officers from other areas be brought in?
A. Depending on the situation, yes, sir.
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Q. When something major happens, as far as crimes are
concerned, do officers sometimes just come by to see what's
happening so they can inform themselves; drop in, pass on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did that happen when you wer at the Lorna Linda
University Medical Center on June 5th, 1983?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nobody showed up?
A. No, sir.
Q. What time did you go to Lorna Linda University
Medical Center on June 5th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. 1344 hours.
Q. At that point in time you were driving a fully
equipped Sheriff's unit.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were dispatched in reference to the
homicides that had just been discovered in Chino Hills.
A. I wasn't advised at the time initially, I found out
later on that was what I was dispatched for, yes, sir.
Q. Before you got out of the car?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you -- what was your purpose in going
there to the hospital?
A. I was advised to go to the hospital and to call
dispatch.
Q. Did you do that when you got to the hospital?
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that point in time were you given the
information as to what you were supposed to do?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time that you called dispatch, what time was
that?
A. Be approximately 1350 hours.
Q. What were you doing for the six minutes in between?
A. Giving six minutes to advise I was 97, pulled in
the parking lot, get out, go in the door and call.
Q. That took six minutes?
A. I would assume so.
Q. Where do you get the time l350?
A. That's an approximate time, going from the 1344,
that I called in I was 97.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
the scene.
A.
Okay. So you are sure of the 1344 time.
Yes, sir.
And that is 1:44 civilian time?
Yes, sir.
And "97" in police codes means I have arrived at
Yes, sir.
Q. When you parked your car, did you park it in a
regular parking place?
A. Parked in the emergency lot.
Q. How far from the door to the emergency room did you
park it?
A. Hundred feet.
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5980
Q. And once you got there, did you make the call from
inside the emergency room?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Was there a phone right there?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
As you walk in at the reception desk, yes, sir.
Did you have any trouble finding that phone?
No, sir.
When you got through with your phone call, had Josh
9 Ryen arrived at the emergency room yet?
10 A. Not being in the actual emergency room, at the
11 reception desk, I wouldn't know. In guessing I'd have to say I
12 believe so.
13 Q. As soon as you got off the phone did you go right
14 into where Josh was?
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17
sir.
A.
Q.
I went in the emergency room at that pOint, yes,
And how long was it before you were allowed to go
18 where Josh is?
19 A. As I walked in I could see the partition was open
20 and I could see Josh laying there.
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25
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
26 recorder?
27
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A.
Q.
Did you make immediate contact with Josh?
Not at that time, no, sir.
How long was it before you made contact with Josh?
Approximately ten minutes.
In your Sheriff's units, did you have a tape
Yes, sir.
Is that something that you use as part of your
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
1 Sheriff's work?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
Did you go out and get it?
No, sir.
Had you been assigned to get information from
5981
6 somebody you believed to be the sole survivor of a mass murder?
A. 7 Not at that time.
Q. 8 When were you assigned to get information from
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Josh?
Arthur.
A. I subsequently made phone contact with Sergeant
Q. What time was that?
A. It would be right around the same time. I advised
14 dispatch when I was talking to him to have Sergeant Arthur call
15 me at the hospital and he ~alled a few minutes later.
16 Q. At that point in time did Sergeant Arthur tell you
17 to try and get information from the sole survivor of a mass
18 murder?
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22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
Did you then go out and get your tape recorder?
No, sir.
How long after your conversation with Sergeant
23 Arthur was it that you actually went in and made contact
24 yourself with Josh?
25
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28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Approximately a minute, 30 seconds.
Do you know what time that was?
No, sir, I do not.
At that time, at the time that you made contact
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5982
I with Josh, was his head bandaged?
2 A. They were either just finishing up or it was
3 bandaged right in that area right there, I believe.
4
5
6
Q.
A.
Q.
7 with him?
8 A.
Did he have IV tubes?
I believe so, yes, sir.
Could you see what the medical people were doing
They were all moving around the bed. As to exactly
9 what the were doing, I don't recall.
10
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
How many medical people were there?
Approximately six or seven.
Do you know the identities of any of these people?
No, sir, I do not.
Did you see anybody obtaining information from Josh
15 before you made contact with him?
19
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nurse?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
25 information?
26
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A.
Q.
28 a clipboard?
Okay. What -- why do you think the person was a
Because it was a female.
Did the nurse ask Josh about allergies?
I don't recall that.
Do you recall how the nurse was obtaining the
She had a clipboard in her hand.
How was she getting the information from Josh using
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5983
1 A. I believe she had Josh write his name and then he
2 pointed to numbers for his age, date of birth and telephone
3 number.
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8
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Did you obtain that information from her?
I obtained it while she did, yes, sir.
Did you read the name that Josh wrote?
I believe I was told, sir.
By whom?
9 A. I believe it was the female nurse. There was a
10 number of people standing around there, and I asked for the
11 name, and if I recall correctly, it was a number of people told
12 me "Joshua Ryen" or "Josh Ryen w •
13 Q. Do you know what time it was that you learned that
14 information?
15
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18
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
19 afternoon?
20
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24
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Not exactly, no, sir.
Approximation?
1405, 1410, somewhere around there.
Could it have been as late as 2:23 in the
I don't believe it was that late, no, sir.
Were you making any notes as this was going on?
Yes, sir.
Where?
On a notepad that I carried in.
25 Q. In November were you subpoenaed, served with a
26 subpoena duces tecum for those notes?
27
28
A.
Q.
What was that question again, sir?
In November of 1983, were you served with a
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5984
subpoena requesting you bring those notes to court?
A. No, sir, I don't believe so.
Q. Were you ever requested to bring the notes to
court?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you put down on your notes basically the
questions that you were to ask Josh?
A. At times they were the exact questions, at times
they were the idea of what was being said.
Q. Did you put down the order in which you asked the
questions?
A. The order? That would be in my report, would be
the order that we talked about.
Q. I'm talking about the notes. Let's just focus in
on these notes.
Did you put down in your notes the order in which
the questions were asked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many pages of notes did you take?
A. Two, three pages of notes, I would imagine.
Q. Is this on a spiral notepad?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
Both sides of the page?
No, sir, just one side.
And what did you do with those notes?
I have destroyed them.
When did you do that?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5985
1 through with the notepad, I destroy the notepad.
2 Q. Have you been told by people in your department to
3 do that so that the defense doesn't have access to your notes?
4
5
A. No, sir.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection, argumentative.
6 THE COURT: Overruled. It may remain.
7 BY MR. NEGUS:
8 Q. Is that why you threw them away?
9
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A. No, sir.
Q. Why did you throw them away?
A. I threw them away because of two reasons.
There's not a place to put the notebook when you
are through with it, such as an evidence locker where you had,
say, this notebook has confidential information in it, therefore
I put it in this locker. There's not a place for that.
I am not going to keep the notebook at home. I
17 certainly wouldn't want someone to break in my house and get
18 information out of that notebook, and I've got cases that I'm
19 working on in that notebook that I don't want confidential
20 informants to be known or what information they gave me.
21
22 in it?
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
25 procedure?
What confidential informants in that notebook were
I wouldn't recall.
Well, does everybody in your department follow that
26 A. Everyone that I know of does, yes, sir. At least
27 within the realm of a patrol division.
28 Q. In this particular case, did you think that maybe
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it was a little different, maybe a different procedure might be
followed?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. When you were questioning Josh, did you have any
difficulty doing it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the female nurse you found out that Josh was 8
years old.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you think -- well, did you do anything to try
and insure that the form of your question didn't influence
Josh's answers?
A. I would have asked the questions several times to
make sure that I had the correct meaning.
Q. The same way each time or different wording?
A. Sometimes it would have been the same way,
sometimes it would have been different.
Q. Did you keep track in your notes of the different
ways in which you asked the questions?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you attempt to tape record the conversation to
preserve how you asked the questions that way, without any extra
effort?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. From the people in the hospital you obtained the
name Josh Ryen, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, was that -- did you see Josh give that answer
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or did you -- was that relayed to you by word of mouth?
A. It would have been by word of mouth.
Q. Did you ever see Josh asked the question what his
name was by these people in the hospital?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did he give the name Josh Ryen?
A. Apparently. That was the name that he had written
down. Yes, sir.
Q. You never -- did you attempt to get ahold of that
particular piece of paper that he wrote on?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you, yourself, make any attempts to see how
lucid Josh was?
A. Not any actual attempts where, you know, I would --
could make an attempt for this during the period of time. There
were times that I felt that he understood and times I felt he
didn't.
Q. So that was a subjective feeling on your part.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there a neurologist present while you were in
the emergency room with Josh?
A. I would not know.
Q. Did you see Mr. Gamundoy, the gentleman that
testified just before you did, while he was on the witness
stand?
A. I saw him walk in, yes, sir.
Q. Did you know if Mr. Gamunody was there in the
emergency room with you and Josh?
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5988
A. When I was talking to the paramedic, which was
outside the partition area, there was a man there. When I came
to court today I felt that possibly that was Mr. Gamunody.
4 After seeing the man that left here, it wasn't, and I have not
5 seen Mr. Gamunody before or do I recall seeing him before, I
6 should say.
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Q. When, in the chronology of events, were you talking
to the paramedics?
A. Prior to talking to Josh or getting his name or
anything.
Q. And did you get a history from the paramedics as to
what had happened?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Which paramedics do you know which outfit the
15 paramedic worked for?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I believe it was the Chino Fire Department.
Do he have a blue uniform on?
Yes, sir.
Was he -- what ethnic background was he?
I don't recall.
21 Q. Well did he give you any information about what
22 type of wounds that Josh had?
23
24
A.
Q.
No, sir, he did not.
Did he give you any information about Josh's -- who
25 else was involved in the murder?
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir, he did not.
What were you talking to him about?
The crime scene.
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Q.
A.
Q.
What did he tell you about the crime scene?
He said blood was everywhere.
5989
When you talked to Sergeant Arthur, did he give you
4 any information about the nature of the causes of the injuries
5 or anything of that nature?
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A. I don't recall.
Q. When you began your attempts to get information
from Josh, did you at that point know whether he was going to
live or die?
A. For sure I did not know.
Q. In the training that you had as a deputy sheriff
12 well, you did -- you have had training as a deputy sheriff in
13 the various aspects of your job; is that right?
14
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went to the Mr. Bland's Academy and Glen Helen
and did all the other in-service things that people require?
A. The basic academy, yes, sir.
Q. Part of that, do they teach you certain technical
requirements about trying to get a dying declaration from
somebody?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have to be very careful to try and fulfill
23 certain technical legal requirements when you're talking to
24 somebody from whom you might be getting a dying declaration; is
25 that right?
26 A. I would assume so; although, you know, I was never
27 taught what you're talking about.
28 Q. Well, didn't they teach you in the basic academy
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5990
how to get a dying declaration, what you had to do?
A. They told us to get what information we could.
Q. Well, did they teach you
THE COURT: Counsel, he answered negatively.
MR. NEGUS: Well, I think -- I don't think he's answered
this question. If I could just ask the question.
Q. Did they teach you that you had to establish that
the person was aware that they were dying?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they teach you that had the person had to be
aware that they were describing the circumstances which caused
their injuries or their demise?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you actually observe Josh to give to one of the
medical people his birthdate?
A. I saw him pOinting to the clipboard at some numbers
that I had seen them written down -- write down.
Q. You saw a medical person write the numbers down?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that the female person that you presumed
was a nurse?
A. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. After the female person that you presumed was a
nurse wrote the numbers down, did you then put them in your
notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And before you destroyed your notes did you then
dictates those into a tape recorder back at your -- at your
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office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did one of the typists that work for the
Sheriff's Department then transcribe those notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever go back and check to see that she --
the transcriber had done it correctly?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
had made?
A.
Q.
that right?
A.
Q.
A.
You mean check the report with the notes?
Yes.
No, sir.
Did you check the report against the tape that you
No, sir.
I take it the tapes aren't preserved either; is
No, sir.
They are not preserved?
No, sir, they are not.
Q. Well, what was the date of birth that you obtained
for Josh Ryen?
A. Probably have to check my report, but I believe it
was 9-5-74.
Q. Did you also obtain a telephone number?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And probably not going to be able to remember that,
right?
A. Probably not.
Q. Would you like -- would it refresh your
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
1 recollection if you looked at your report?
2
3
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6
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And is that report prepared from your notes?
Yes, sir.
Would you do so, please. What was it?
627-4294.
While you were talking to Sergeant Arthur --
5992
8 You had several conversations with him during the
9 course of the time you were with Josh; is that right?
10
11
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
Did you verify with Sergeant Arthur, as part of
12 your process of trying to see whether Josh was alert or not, if
13 that was in fact Josh's correct phone number?
14
15
A.
Q.
No, sir.
In your report you also put down that Josh -- you
16 put down as coming from Josh the age 8; is that right?
A.
18 Did that come from Josh? Q.
A.
Q. 20 So, the -- the person that was questioning him at
that point in 21 time asked him to point at how old he was and he
22 pOinted to 8?
A.
Q. 24 Asking you to look at Exhbiit 697 that's behind you
25 on the board; does that appear to be a reasonable facsimile of
26 the paper that the medical person who was questioning Josh was
27 using?
28 A. You're asking if the paper that they used had the
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5993
1 alphabet and the numbering system on it, yes, sir, that would be
2 true. The, ·yes and no·, I don't recall.
3 Q. Was the was the person that was dOing the
4 questioning asking Josh any questions which required a yes or no
5
6
7
8
answer?
A.
Q.
A.
I don't recall.
Did you take notes of that?
I would have The notes I would have taken would
9 have went in my report as to Joshua's name, age, date of birth,
10 phone number. I don't believe there were any others -- any
11 others that would have been asked. After that point I would
12 have done with Joshua, and if anybody else asked those
13 questions, you know, I asked them again and got in my report. I
14
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don't know whether they were asked or not.
Q. SO you don't know whether other people got
information with what you got or inconsistent or what?
A. I would have no idea, sir.
Q. You haven't checked -- you never did check to find
out whether everything that you had in your notes was typed up
in your report though, right?
A. I did read the report, and I was satisfied that
that was what I had dictated, yes, sir.
Q. But you didn't do anything didn't do anything
independently like look at the notes, make sure there wasn't
something you had forgot and make sure of anything like that?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. When did you -- when did you make it, the report?
A. After I got back to the substation that day.
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Q. What time would that have been?
A. Approximately 1800 hours.
Q. That would be 6:00 o'clock at night civilian time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the end of your shift?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you review the written, typewritten
report?
A. Approximately two days later.
Q. During that intervening two days had you been out
in the field?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And had you been -- had you been assigned to work
this case?
A. I had been assigned to work other cases, which
would be the 6th, and then the following two days I worked on
this case.
Q. Did that involve the days in which the -- what's
been referred to as the hideout, 2991 English Road, was
discovered?
A. I believe it was the end of the second day, yes,
sir.
Q. And that would have been prior to your reviewing
your report?
A. No, sir. I reviewed it before then.
Q. Well, that would have been two days later, right?
A. Well, we're talking two days from the point that I
dictated it.
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5995
1
2
3
Q. That would have been Tuesday night, approximately
6:00 o'clock, right?
A. Well, it would have been sometime -- well actually
4 it was sometime Monday night because I picked up a copy of the
5 report to bring it to to Sergeant Arthur after work on the day
6 of the 6th.
7 Q. On June 6th, did you interview, yourself, and
8 prepare written reports of an interview with Sue Lease?
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I did an interview with Sue Lease, yes, sir.
On the 6th?
I'm not sure if it was the 6th or the 7th.
Do you have your reports with you?
Yes, sir.
Q. Could you check?
A. It was on the 6th.
Q. Same day you also did an interview with a member of
the Edwards family, lived just down the hill from the Ryens?
A. No, sir. That interview would have been on the
7th.
Q. Do you have the report?
A. Yeah. It would have been the 7th.
22 Q. How about Kimberly Ward?
23 THE COURT: Counsel, let's perhaps break it at this
24 point. We will continue at 1:30. Please remember the
25 admonition over the noon period.
26 We will take the noon recess until the hour of
27
28
1:30.
(Noon recess taken.)
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5996
1 SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 1985, 1:37 P.M.
2
3
4
THE COURT: Go ahead, counsel.
5 DALE SHARP,
6 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been
7 previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
8 as follows:
9
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION <Continued)
11 BY MR. NEGUS:
12 Q. Mr. Sharp, just before the break you testified that
13 your interview with a member of the Edwards family was on the
14 7th rather than the 6th of June.
15 When you submitted your written report to your
16 superiors, what date did you have in the report?
17 A. It's hard to say whether I dictated the 6th or the
18 7th, whether it was my error or the typist. Obviously, in the
19 report it came out the 6th, but the interview was done on the
20 7th.
21 Q. Okay. Well, in the typed report that you submitted
22 then to your superiors it reads June 6th?
23
24
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And I take it that when you were -- Did you read
25 over that typed report before it was submitted?
26 A. That particular report I did not receive until just
27 before the prelim.
28 Q. SO, you were going through a process where -- Let
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5997
1 me see if I understand this then, you would --
2 Who do you normally submit your reports to?
3 A. This is a problem. The reports are submitted to
4 the -- the first report that I would have taken at Loma Linda
5 Hospital would have been submitted to one of the secretaries at
6 Central Patrol, the initials on the bottom being K.J. who typed
7 it, that's Kelly Jensen. She typed this on 6-6-83. I picked
8 this report up. I read it and took it to Sergeant Arthur that
9 night.
10 The other reports were done in the West End area
11 and were typed by the West End stenographers. I would not know
12 who they are. And I did not receive those particular reports or
13 look at them until the prelim.
14 Q. I see. Well, at that point in time did you
15 right now you've sort of taken the date of June 6th and
16 scratched it off that report of the Edwards; is that right?
17
18
19
20
21
22
A. I didn't do it right now. I did it prior to this
date, yes, sir.
Q. When did you do that?
A. It would have probably been at sometime prior to
the prelim.
Q. Well, did you put a supplemental in to indicate
23 that there was a correction?
24
25
26
27
28
it was
report?
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir, I did not.
And you just had an independent recollection thac
that the date was wrong just from the nature of the
Yes, sir.
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5998
Q. Any of your other reports that were incorrectly
dated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which other ones were those?
A. It would have been the report with Kathy Bilbia,
B-i-l-b-i-a; the report with Cindy Reynolds, our contact with
Cindy Reynolds and the interview with Cindy Reynolds; and the
report with Kimberly Ward.
I have checked these reports and they look correct
to me with the exception of the date. The times appear to be
correct.
Q. Let me just look at the Bilbia one for just a
13 second, will you?
14 Well, that Bilbia one wasn't really the -- wasn't
15 really an interview with Kathy Bilbia; it was an interview with
16 Sue Lease; is that correct?
17
18
A.
Q.
Sue Lease that talked about Kathy Bilbia, yes, sir.
And that interview according to what you had
19 written down there was at 5:30 on 6-6-83; is that right?
20
21
A.
Q.
According to what the -- is typed there, yes, sir.
And now you have it crossed off and you put a "7"
22 instead of a "6 n ?
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
Did you do that at the lunch hour?
Yes, I did.
You hadn't noticed that at the prelim when you were
looking over it?
A. No, sir, I did not.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
5999
I Q. Well, how about -- how about Dee Nolte, did you
2 talk to her on June 6th?
3
4
5
6
7
8
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
afternoon
I would have to check that report.
Do you have that?
I believe so. This report is not dated.
Well, when was it -- when was it done?
It would have been the -- I believe the late
this is in reference to Cindy and it would have
9 been the late afternoon of the 7th. I believe. Yes, sir, the
10 7th.
Q.
A.
Q.
14 That was on the 6th. A.
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
the 6th?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
place at
there?
A.
Q.
the
Okay. At what time?
1700 hours.
And where did you talk to her?
That was at the substation in the West End.
Well, did you go down to the Ryen residence on June
No, sir, I did not.
How about down to the Chino Hills area?
Yes, sir, I did.
The interview with Kimberly Ward, did that take
-- at the check pOint that had been established
Yes, sir.
About 5:30 in the evening?
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6000
1 MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection, your Honor. I see no
2 relevance to this whole line of questioning_
3 THE COURT: I have been wondering did it, Mr. Negus.
4 MR. NEGUS: Well, it's a rather complicated offer of
5 proof. I will be glad to make it if you want.
6 THE COURT: Sure, give me an outline.
7 MR. NEGUS: Okay. Mr. Sharp, I believe, is going to give
8 statements inconsistent with Mr. O'Campo's as to when he and Mr.
9 O'Campo first went to talk to Josh. I believe there's going to
10 be inconsistent statements between Mr. O'Campo, Mr. Sharp, and a
11 variety of other people about when certain information was
12 elicited from Josh.
13 THE COURT: Perhaps then, Mr. Negus, you're premature, so
14 let's save it then till you cross-examine the witness and let's
15 see if that foundation is laid. You are anticipating. I don't
16 know if Mr. Kottmeier and Mr. Kochis will ask those questions.
17 MR. NEGUS: Well, no. 11m thinking that I'm going to
18 bring out the inconsistencies.
19 THE COURT: I will sustain his objection, Mr. Negus.
20 MR. NEGUS: There is one other point. It's also to
21 disprove a fact that Mr. Sharp testified to earlier, which was
22 that he had not participated in the investigation of the Ryen
23 murders prior to his reviewing the report. We now have him
24 picking up the report at 6:00 o'clock, I believe, Monday night
25 in San Bernadino. We have him interviewing witnesses.
26 THE COURT: That's enough, Mr. Negus. Your objection is
27 sustained. Next question.
28 BY MR. NEGUS:
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6001
1 Q. Well, when did you get back to -- when did you get
2 back to -- to pick up your report in San Bernadino?
3 A. I would have picked it up at the end of shift on
4 the 6th, which would have been 1500 hours. At that time I took
5 it to Sergeant Arthur.
6 We're talking in reference the report of my time
7 with Josh Ryen at the hospital?
8 Q. Right. So that would have been 3:00 o'clock in the
9 afternoon civilian time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you at some point in time introduce Mr. O'Campo
to Josh Ryen?
A. No, sir, I did not.
10
11
12
13
14 Q. Were you ever present when -- when Mr. O'Campo
15 talked to Josh?
16 A. Not when he talked to Josh, no, sir. I was present
17 I believe it was three days later while Josh was in Loma Linda
18 hospital. He had been moved. I was sent to relay a message to
19 Deputy Gilliam. At this time I was back on patrol and I relayed
20 a message to Deputy Gilliam, something concerning Josh's family.
21 At that time Detective Q'Campo was present in the room.
22
23 right?
24
25
26
27
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Mr. Gilliam is another deputy out of Central,
Yes, sir.
He's a regular Deputy, right, not a reserve?
Yes, sir.
Uh-huh. And what was Mr. Gilliam doing at the
28 hospital when you went to relay this message?
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2
A.
o.
6002
Security.
Well, Mr. Sharp, isn't it a fact that the only time
3 that regular deputies as opposed to reserves were providing
4 security for Josh Ryen was on the 5th and the 6th?
5 A. I don't believe -- I don't believe so, no, sir.
6 I'm not sure of the dates, but I believe it was looking at three
7 days later that Deputy Gilliam was there. This being Wednesday,
8 I believe it was, or Thursday even.
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o. Thursday, June the 9th, you went to Loma Linda
Hospital to deliver a message to Mike Gilliam and O.C.
was there?
A. It was either the 8th or the 9th, I'm not sure.
MR. NEGUS: Excuse me a moment, your Honor, I thought I
had this marked.
Q. When you -- when you delivered the message to Mr.
O'Campo -- or Mr. Gilliam which one -- who was it that you were
delivering to, Mr. Gilliam or Mr. O'Campo?
A. Deputy Gilliam.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Was there anybody else present?
Detective O'Campo.
Anybody else?
No, sir.
What floor of the hospital was this on?
I believe it was the 8th floor.
25 Q. Intensive care or was it when he had gone down to
26 the pediatric section?
27
28
A. It was high up, if that's the intensive care.
remember I took an elevator up.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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6003
1 o. Between the 5th and the 8th you could say that it
2 was definitely the 8th?
3 A. No, I would not. It seemed to me like it was the
48th, but I'm unsure.
5 o. Well, do you recall whether he was in a pediatric
6 ward or an intensive care ward?
7 No, sir, I do not.
8 Was he talking, Josh?
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21
Did you was he communicating some other way?
I don't know, sir. I did not talk to him.
Did you see him to say, "Hi," or anything?
I said, "Hi," to him.
Did he respond?
No, sir.
Was he asleep?
No, sir.
Just sat there.
Yes, sir.
On the evening of June the 6th, did you ever talk
22 I don't recall.
23 Did -- Did you, during the afternoon hours sometime
24 on June the 6th, 1983, did you ever go down to Lorna Linda
25 University Medical Center and introduce Hector O'Campo to Josh
26 Ryen?
27
28 o. I do not recall.
Well, you just testified, did you not, that you had
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no contact with Josh between the time that you saw him on Sunday
and the time on Wednesday or Thursday that you went up to see
Mr. Gilliam?
A. That's affirmative.
Q. SO the answer would have to be that did you not?
A. I don't believe so, no, sir. I'm trying to recall,
but I don't recall any time.
Q. When -- let's go back to the emergency room for a
bit. First off, let me just --
Exhibit 697, you did see somebody using such an
exhibit to try and get information from Josh, something like
that?
A. Similar to that, yes, sir.
Q. When I first asked you about that at the prelim you
denied that; is that correct?
A. I am not sure. I did advise you at one point that
I was mistaken about that, or something similar to that, I
forget.
Q. When you first testified at the preliminary hearing
you said it was by blinking of eyes that the person was getting
information?
A. r'm not sure at this pOint. Reading it over last
night, I believe there was point of contention where I had made
a mistake. At that time I had to go back and read my report at
which time we had straightened it out.
Q. Can you do -- try and make a diagram for me of,
like, the front entrance, where you parked your car, the
emergency room, and where Josh Ryen was located within that
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6005
1 emergency room, including also the reception desk at Loma Linda
2 University Medical Center?
3 A. (Witness complied.)
4 MR. NEGUS: While Mr. Sharp is doing that, your Honor,
5 the record should reflect that as soon as we get a chance we
6 will put exhibit tag 701 on the diagram that he is preparing.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 You might stay is there, sir, he is going to ask to
9 you to explain the diagram I'm sure.
10 Mr~ Negus.
11 MR. NEGUS: I'm looking for something. Just a second,
12 your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Then have a seat.
14 Mr. Negus, please, try and expedite. This witness
15 is taking particularly long.
16 MR. NEGUS: Well, your Honor, I'm sorry, but --
17 THE COURT: Do your best, Mr. Negus.
18 MR. NEGUS: I'm trying to do my best, your Honor, but I
19 don't always get the answers that I anticipate.
20 MR. KOTTMEIER: Object to that portion, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Pardon?
22 MR. KOTTMEIER: I object to Mr. Negus' editorial comment.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 BY MR. NEGUS:
25 Q. Mr. Sharp, at the hearing that we had on May 15th,
26 1983, on page Page 1823 Lines 7 through 9, do you recall
27 testifying:
28 "Question: And when you arrived did you park your
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6006
car right outside the emergency room?
"Answer: Yes, sir."?
A. Yes, sir.
1
2
3
4 Q. And is there a place you can park right outside the
5 doors to the emergency room right here on the diagram?
6 A. That's where I'm parked, yes, sir.
7 Q. You have it down in the parking lot, according to
8 the diagram.
9 A. Well, that would be -- I would consider that by the
10 doors compared to most hospital parking lots.
11 Q. So you wouldn't have parked your vehicle there at
12 the curb right next to the doors?
13 A. No, sir. It's marked in red.
14 Q. Oh, I see. Mr. Sharp, in the -- did all of your
15 questioning of Josh Ryen take place in this particular area
16 right here?
17 A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. How -- Approximately what percentage of it took
place? ~ 18
19
20 A. I esw~ give a percentage of what questioning took
21 place. It would have been 15 minutes worth of questioning I
22 would imagine.
23 Q. Okay. Did that questioning take place from say,
24 oh, 2:30 to 2:45?
25 A. Well, we are talking sometime ago, but in the in
26 looking at the clock and guessing minutes and trying to be as
27 close as we can, I believe it would have been around 2:20 or
28 2:25 to 15 minutes past that that I actually --
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6007
Q. How did you arrive at that particular time?
A. What's that, sir?
Q. How do you arrive at that particular time?
A. Knowing the time that I arrived.
Q. You're just guessing from that point on?
A. Knowing what I did, yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what time Josh left to go to the next
place he went to?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. The next place Josh went to was the CAT Scan room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And let's -- let's if you would assume that he left
to go to the CAT Scan room at 2:45, would then 2:30 to 2:45 be
roughly how long you questioned him in the emergency room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Other than the female person that you assumed was a
nurse, did you observe anybody else obtaining information from
Josh Ryen in the emergency room by means of a clipboard?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you observe any did you observe a male nurse
in the that is, a male who was a nurse -- in the emergency
room taking care of Josh while you were in there?
A. There were both males and females in the room.
Q. Okay. Did you observe a male who was a nurse
taking care of Josh?
A. I would be guessing as to what their occupation
was.
Q. Could have been a male nurse there?
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6008
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were -- when you began your interview with
Josh, did you attempt to use the clipboard?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did that look to you to be a bad method of trying
to get information from Josh?
A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. What method did you use?
A. I used a method of having Josh squeeze my hand for
a yes answer and no squeeze for a no answer.
Q. How did you -- how did you determine that -- how
did you differentiate between a no and a no response?
A. A no response would be equal to a no.
Q. SO you assumed that Josh was responding to all your
questions and didn't allow any room for him missing the question
or something of that nature.
A. When I asked the questions, you know, it might take
two or three questions to get to the meaning of what was behind
it. I felt sure of it.
Q. That's again subjective rather than anything
objective1 is that correct?
A. At that point, yes, sir.
Q. Well, did you explain to Josh what you were gOing
to do?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the -- what words did you explain it?
A. I told Josh that I was going to ask him some
questions, and that if the answers to the questions were yes, he
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1 was to squeeze my hand; if they were no, he was not to squeeze
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Q.
A.
Q.
And what did you do then?
I then began asking him questions.
What was the first question that you asked?
Apparently you don't remember right now, am I
correct in making that assumption?
THE COURT: I am not sure he understood the last question
or picked up the last question.
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Did you ask -- the last question I asked you was,
what was the first question you asked Josh.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you then shuffled through some documents and
you pulled out a piece of paper, right?
A. I have got the report laying in front of me so that
there aren't any mistakes.
Q. Well, am I to assume from that that you don't
really remember right now, without referring to your report,
what the first question was?
A. The exact first question, no, sir.
Q. Then in your report, did you dictate that report in
question and answer form? I mean like, question, nJoshua, what
is your name?n Answer, "Joshn, something like --
A. Not totally, no, sir.
Q. Basically then it is your conclusions about what
you thought Josh was saying.
A. Well, those were the answers I felt I was getting,
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yes, sir.
Q. Basically your interpretation after Josh's hand
squeeze.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you recall -- well, the first statement that
you have in your report was what?
A. nVictim information.-
Q. That wasn't given to you though, right?
A. It was information I had received while I was there
with the clipboard.
Q. But, when you have explained to Josh you were going
to use the hand squeeze method, and you start off, you are going
to get information out of Josh, and in your report what you have
preserved for us, what's the first statement that you have
emanating from Josh to you?
A. nThe victim first advised me that there were three
white male adult subjects in the residence and he had been
asleep.n
Q. I take it you have no particular memory right now
as to what questions you asked to get that particular
information; is that true?
A. It would be a number of questions, yes, sir.
Q. But you don't know what they were.
A. The exact question, no, sir.
Q. How did you set the scene for him? Do you remember
that? I mean, how did you let him know that you were interested
in the attack?
A. I advised him we were going to use the hand squeeze
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method, and I would have set the scene something similar to,
"How many people were in your house last night?"
I was being very careful with the questions. I
realize, in looking at this report, that it leaves a lot of
questions unanswered. This is due to the fact of Josh's
situation.
My first concern at this point was for Josh and the
second, of course, is for the investigation.
Q. I understand that. But what -- do you remember now
whether you asked him to describe, did you -- who was in your
house last night? Who was in your house that didn't belong last
night? Who attacked you? Who injured you? Who did this to you
and your family? Can you tell me that? Can you exclude any of
those as possibilities?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Which ones?
A. One, I would not have used the word "attack." I
would have not used "who injured you." I didn't want to say
anything that might have him remember something that he didn't
remember at this time and possibly go into shock.
Q. Well, so, how about, did you say, "Who did this to
you?"
A. Not at that point, no, sir.
Q. Well, you put, "and he had been asleep."
Does that mean you established, at least in your
mind, that Josh had been asleep at the time that the attack
began?
A. I asked him if he had been asleep at that time and
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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6012
the answer would have been affirmative.
Q. What was that time? I mean, what were the words
that you used to establish what -that time" meant?
A. When the three white male subjects were in the
house.
Q. Did you establish that the three white male
7 subjects were not Josh, his father and Chris?
8
9
A.
Q.
No, I did not.
Did you establish that -- did Josh say something to
10 you, um, at that point in time, that you could use to infer that
11 they were not himself, Christopher and his father?
12
13
A.
Q.
No, sir, not at that point.
Well, within that very, that series of questions
14 that continued on from that point, as you were trying to get
15 information about these three males, did he say anything that
16 you could eliminate those three males being Doug Ryen, Josh and
17 Chris?
18
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
A. I don't recall.
Q. If you could perhaps then go on to your report.
In your report you wrote, "The victim did not know
who the suspects were." Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What led you to that conclusion?
A. I would have asked him to, you know, who the three
male subjects were.
Q. And he would have given you no response.
A. No response.
Q. How many different questions did y~u ask to
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6013
1 determine that there were three white males involved?
A. Would have been several questions. 2
3
4
5
6
7
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Did you repeat the race question several times?
No, sir.
How about the number?
Not at this point I didn't.
Q. How many -- at that point in time, how many
8 different questions did it take you to elicit information that
9 there were three white males?
10 A. Well, it would have been several questions. It
11 would have been, nWere the people in your house males?- His
12 answer. "Were they white?" I would have gotten a yes answer.
13 "Were you asleep" or "had you been asleep?" I would have gotten
14 a yes answer.
15 Q. Do you remember which?
A. What was that, sir?
Q. Do you remember whether the question was "Were you
16
17
18
19
20
asleep" versus "Had you been asleep?"
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you remember how you wrote this stuff down in
21 your notes to key your memory later when you dictated the
22 report?
23 A. It would have been something very close to what's
24 on my report.
25 Q. You have used the word "victim." Would you have
26 used the word Rvictim"?
27
28
A.
Q.
In my notes, no, sir.
Maybe just --
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6014
1 A. Not under a normal interview I wouldn't write
2 ·victim·, no.
3 Q. "Three WMA"?
A.
Q.
A.
Quite possibly, yes, sir.
Then just the word "asleep"?
No, I would have probably wrote that out.
4
5
6
7 Q. Did you try and determine during that same, in that
8 same initial interview, the time of day that the attack
9 occurred?
10
11
12
13
14
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir, I did.
Did you use the word "attack"?
No, sir.
Did you use the word "injuries"?
No, sir, I did not.
15 Q. How did you determine, you know, what time of day
16 you were talking about?
17
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
I would have asked him what time he was awakened.
Do you have an independent recollection of that?
Well, I know that I would not have used the word
20 "injured" or "attacked", it would have been something very
21 similar to that.
22 Q. "Awakened by the three white males." Did you use
23 that phrase?
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
No, sir. I believe it was, "Were you woke up?"
Well, in your -- in your report you wrote that "it
was still dark outside at the time that the crime occurred."
that right?
A. Uh-huh, yes.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes?
Yes.
6015
Did the word Rcrime R come into your vocabulary?
No, sir, it did not.
How did that get in your report?
That is something I put in there.
Was the word "crime R in your notes?
Yes, sir, it would have been.
Mr. Sharp, do you believe that Mr. Kochis and Mr.
10 Kottmeier and Mr. Arthur desire that you testify in such a way
11 that they can argue to the jury that in telling you that there
12 were three white males involved in the crime, that Josh was just
13 confused?
14
15
A.
Q.
No, sir, I do not believe that.
Have you discussed your testimony with either of
16 those three gentlemen or all of those three gentlemen before
17 getting on the stand today?
18
19
20
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
How many?
Last night in my motel room I received a phone call
21 and also talked this morning with Mr. Kottmeier. Mr. Kottmeier
22 asked me the questions, in my report, is this a sequence of the
23 things that you were talking about as you go down in your
24 report? I advised him yes.
25 Q. That was the sum and substance?
26 A. I asked him last night on the phone if he, if I --
27 if he felt that you were going to hit on some some of the same
28 questions that you had in the Hitch's motion.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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3
Q.
A.
Q.
Anything else?
He told me to be calm.
Good advice.
6016
4 After you elicited from Josh the information that
5 there were three white males involved in the attack, that the
6 attack had occurred, the crime had occurred during the
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 of the time, or how he knew the time, or anything of that
14 nature?
15
16
A.
Q.
No, sir, I did not.
I mean, time of attack, number of suspects, racial
17 identity, and the fact that Josh did not know who they were.
18 At that point in time Josh had to leave, right?
19
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
That took you 15 minutes to get that information?
Yes, sir.
Was the fact that it took that long to get that
23 information due to the fact that the hand squeeze method was
24 somewhat awkward?
25 A. No, sir, it had to do with two things:
26 The questions were, of course, awkward, and how I
27 was wording them, and trying to make sure that I didn't say
28 something to hurt Josh.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6017
1 And the level of noise in the emergency room was
2 high, and I wanted, you know, to take time and wait for the
3 spots where the level wasn't so high so as to make sure that
4 Josh heard me.
5 Q. Which hand were you holding?
6 A. His right hand.
7 Q. Did he have -- did Josh have any difficulty
8 maneuvering that hand?
A.
Q.
A.
Not in the squeeze itself, no, sir.
Did he have an IV in it?
Yes, sir, I believe I did.
9
10
11
12 Q. Was Josh's eyes open during the entire 15 minutes
13 that you were there in the emergency room with him?
14
15
16
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Did he ever go to sleep?
No, sir. There was times that he closed his eyes,
17 but it didn't appear to me that he did go to sleep.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
Josh
that
Q. When you -- when you obtained the information from
as to numbers, did you get a squeeze for the nthree n?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get a squeeze for the nwhite n?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Squeeze for the nmalesn?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a squeeze for the "adults n?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you asked Josh did he know who they were, was
the question you used7 precise question?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6018
1 A. DO you know -- did you know who they -- "Did you
2 know these people" would have, probably have been a more correct
3 statement.
4 Q. Well in your report you put down, "Did not know who
5 the suspects were?"
6
7
8
9
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
That's correct.
Did you use the word "suspects"?
No, sir, I did not.
So you can't really tell from your report what
10 exact question you asked, right?
11 A. No, sir, that's the idea of what was said at that
12 point. I did not do every question and every answer, I
13 paraphrased it to the idea.
14 Q. When you asked that question, I take it you got no
15 response.
16
17
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And that was the last question you asked before the
18 doctors moved in and took Josh out of the emergency room, right?
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
you
A.
Q.
recognize
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
During that point in time did you ever use, -Would
the people?- Did you ever ask Josh that?
Not at that pOint in time, no, sir.
Did you ever ask him if he could identify them?
Not at that point in time, no, sir.
How much after you left the emergency room was it
26 that you began to question Josh again?
27
28
A.
Q.
Would have been almost an hour.
So, if he left at 2:45, it would have been
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6019
approximately 3:45?
A. Yes, sir.
1
2
3
4
5
6
Q. During that period of time did you have any contact
with Billy Arthur?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you, amongst other things, relay to him the
7 information that you'd already obtained from Josh?
8
9
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
When you began questioning Josh again, where is the
10 CAT Scan room with respect to the ER Room?
11 A. Up an elevator. It would be, there's a hallway
12 that leads from the emergency room, and you go up an elevator,
13 then you go down another hallway and you are there.
14 Q. How many people were in the CAT Scan room with you
15 when you were interviewing Josh?
16 A. There were three people involved in the CAT Scan.
17 They were in and out, for the most part. Nobody was there while
18 I was interviewing him. I'd have to wait, of course, until
19 after the CAT Scan was done.
20 Q. By the way, after you got through with Josh, did
21 you ever go back and interview the people in the emergency room
22 who had talked to him before! you had to find out what they'd
23 learned?
24
25
26
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir, I did not.
How long did the second interview last?
Approximately 45 minutes.
27 Q. Were you able to get the information from Josh
28 quicker than you were the first time?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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A.
Q.
A.
6020
A little bit quicker, yes, sir.
In the CAT Scan room, did Josh remain awake?
There were times that he closed his eyes. I don't
4 believe he ever went to sleep in the CAT Scan room.
5
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26
Q. Similar to the way he had behaved in the emergency
room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that point in time was he still -- did he still
have IV's hooked up with him?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Given the awkwardness of your questions and the
difficulty of getting information from Josh, in the intervening
hour, did you go out to the car and pick up your tape recorder?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. When you began requestioning Josh, what was the --
how did you rebegin the interview?
found.
A. I asked him if he lived in the house where he was
Q.
A.
Q.
And did he squeeze your hand?
Yes, sir.
Did you ask him about any crimes that his family
had been the victim of recently?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
Did he squeeze your hand when you asked about that?
No, sir, that was a negative response.
At this point in time in your notes, did you begin
27 to at least attempt to try and take some notes as to, as to what
28 questions you were asking him?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I was taking notes the whole way.
What hand were you holding Josh's in yourself?
My right hand.
What hand do you write with?
Left hand.
And did you have your notebook pad so you were
6021
7 writing with the one hand and squeezing with the other?
8 A. Part of the time. Sometimes I would, you know,
9 remove my hand from his and write and then place it back in his
10 hand.
11 Q. Were there like -- did you have gaps of time then
12 between the different questions?
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
way,
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
elicit
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
10, 15, 20 seconds, something like that?
Yes, sir.
Did you ask a question again trying to, in your
information about suspects?
Yes, sir.
Okay. Before you asked him that question, did you
20 indicate to him that you were essentially attempting to repeat
21 the questions that you had already asked him?
22
23
A.
Q.
No, sir.
When you first began talking to Josh in the CAT
24 Scan room, it was basically getting additional information that
25 you hadn't asked him before; is that right?
26
27
A.
Q.
Both.
The first question you hadn't asked him earlier, if
28 he lived in the house where he was found, right? That was new,
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
1 right?
2
3
A.
Q.
6022
Yes, sir.
The second question about if his family had been
4 the victim of burglaries and robberies, that also was new type
5 of stuff.
6
7
8
9
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14
words
around
answer
A.
Q.
that
A.
Q.
A.
the
was
Q.
Yes.
The third question, did you take the approximate
you used for that third question?
Yes, sir.
And what did you write in your report?
I wrote -- I asked the victim if there was anyone
house yesterday that didn't belong there, and the
in the affirmative.
That particular question, then in your mind, that
15 was to try to get back to the issue of suspects again.
16
17
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
Did you actually use the phrase "Yesterday"?
Yes, I did.
Did you clarify for Josh, when you used that
20 phrase, that you were referring to the time of the attack?
21
22
A.
Q.
No, sir, I did not.
At that point in time did you try and go into that
23 subject of having scene somebody around the house yesterday,
24 that didn't belong there in greater depth?
25
26
A.
Q.
Yes, sir, I did.
How long did you ask Josh questions then about that
27 subject, having seen somebody around the house yesterday that
28 didn't belong there?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6023
1 A. It would have been on and off for approximately 30
2 minutes. There were times that I stopped asking him questions
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
and we talked about other things.
O. Well, in the narrative of your report
Your report's essentially a two-paged typed report?
A. Yes, sir.
O. Okay. And in the in the narrative of the report
you essentially go on for well over 50 percent of all the
information you have for JOSh1 is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. You're going into -- into descriptions, ages, that
12 sort of thing about these people?
13
14
15
16
17
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
You got rather detailed descriptions, did you not?
Yes, sir.
Was that a very, very time consuming process?
No, sir. It wasn't as long as you might think, you
18 know, five minutes.
19 00 Five minutes to get all those descriptions?
20 A. Yeah. It didn't take long.
21 O. Well, you were writing down -- you couldn't sort of
22 just go tell me in ten words or less, you know, the description,
23 right? I mean, you had to go each particular -- each particular
24 thing, right?
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
You got hieghts?
Yes, sir.
Did you just happen to hit on the height, right
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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height the first time or did it take awhile?
A. I started at five foot.
Q. SO, there would be a question, a "no" response
did you clarify that, make sure that the "no" was not a "no
response"?
6024
A. Not at that time. It wasn't that hard when I'm
going five foot one, five foot two, five foot three, five foot
five, on up to where the first one was five foot eight, and then
I would show him marked on me where five foot eight was.
Q. Well, the first when you actually got the material
that didn't involve getting descriptions of these -- of these
individuals that had been at the house the day before, that was
right towards the end of the interview, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Within five minutes of the end?
A. Could you clarify exactly where you mean on the
17 report?
18 Q. Okay. Well, let's -- let's back up a bit an go a
19 bit slower.
20 First off, did you first try and clarify like
21 when -- when in time it was that Josh had seen the people around
22 the house that didn't belong there?
23
24
25
26
27
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And in your -- in your report you have the
conclusion -approximately dusk"1 is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. I take it that the first question out of
28 your mouth in order to get that particular -- that particular
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6025
1 bit of information was not the question, was it approximately
2 dusk when all this happened, right, you had to sort of fish for
3 it a little bit?
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did you fish for it?
A. Well, I would have started with probably morning
and gone to afternoon and was it dark and gotten no response,
and I would have asked, is it was it dusk, was it just -- in
fact, I don't even believe I would have said the word "dusk",
considering his age, I would have simply said something similar
to was it getting dark outside.
Q. With ten or fifteen minutes -- ten or fifteen
second pauses again between the questions?
A. I don't believe I paused there ten or fifteen
15 seconds, but it would have been a pause between, you know, time
16 to give him time to squeeze.
17 Q. Well, you are -- Well, you're also making an effort
18 not to tire Josh out by going too fast or too intensely for him?
19 A. I was careful, but I really never thought about
20 tiring him out.
21 Q. Anyway, through this elaborate method you got a
22 vehicle description?
23
24
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Chevy Impala, older model?
Yes, sir.
Q. Each of those things I take it would be a separate
series of questions?
A. Yes, sir.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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5
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
The number of doors?
Yes, sir.
The color?
Yes, sir.
6026
In fact, you even got distinctive information about
6 the paint job, right?
7
8
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
You got information as to where -- where Josh had
9 seen them there?
10
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
14 residence?
15
16
A.
Q.
At his at his residence?
Well, you wrote down, did you not, that -
Yes, sir.
-- the Chevy had pulled into the driveway of his
Yes, sir.
That certainly wasn't an easy sort of thing to get
17 by yes and no hand squeeze questions, was it?
18
19
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir, it wasn't.
Took a bit of time?
A little bit.
Three or four minutes?
It would have been something similar to, did they
23 go in your house, negative response; did they take talk to your
24 dad, affirmative; were they in the front yard, negative; were
25 they on the driveway; this type of thing.
26 Q. And you -- again you determined the fact that these
27 people where male?
28 A. Yes, sir.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
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12
Q.
A.
Q.
And that these people were Mexicans?
Yes, sir.
6027
Okay. In answering those kind of questions, how
many different racial categories did you give Josh?
A. I believe I would have started with White, Mexican,
Black, and I don't believe I ever reached Black.
Q. SO, when you -- in this particular situation then
when you're getting the description of the people that had been
up at the house the day before, you asked White, got no hand
squeeze, then went on to Mexican, and -- and got a hand squeeze?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you -- did you do anything to determine that
13 they were all three the same ethnic background?
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you do that?
A. That came on the descriptions. In the same manner.
Q. Was Josh in any way being, I don't want to use the
word "evasive", but showing reluctance to answer your questions
during this -- during this period of time?
A. No, sir, he wasn't.
Q. Did his -- did his attention ever appear to wander?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did that happen?
A. He would start to close his eyes, at which point I
25 would let him close them for a few seconds, then I would bring
26 up the idea of baseball, and he seemed to like baseball and this
27 kind of perked him up a little bit.
28 Q. SO, essentially you were using baseball as sort of
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6028
1 an enticement to get Josh's mind back on the subject at hand?
2 A. Well, I would use it to perk him up, and then we
3 might talk about baseball for a few minutes and then go back to
4 the questions.
5 Q. How did you talk about baseball, hand squeeze
6 method? Do you like the Dodgers? You like the Angels? That
7
8
9
10
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sort of thing?
A. No. I told him that I liked the Angels. And I
asked him if he did, and I would have gotten a hand squeeze and
then I would do most of the talking about the Angels, and he
smiled.
Q. How many -- how many times did that happen during
the conversation?
A. I don't recall. There was a few.
Q. Was that all during the time that you were getting
the description?
A. The three descriptions that I got, no, those came
18 all at one time. It would have been sometime in between the
19 questions.
20 MR. NEGUS: I think this is probably as appropriate time
21 as any to take the break, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. Take the afternoon recess.
23 (Recess taken.)
24
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28
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THE COURT: Go ahead sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
6029
5 BY MR. NEGUS:
6 Q. Mr. Sharp, to cut it short, could you please give
7 the descriptions you got of the various suspects.
8 A. Suspect No.1, five foot eight, slim build, long,
9 shoulder-length black hair, just above the shoulders, wearing
10 Levi's, white T-shirt, possibly aged 18 to 20, Mexican male.
11 Suspect No.2, five nine, slim build, dark hair,
12 short, wearing Levi's and a blue short sleaved shirt, 18 to 20
13 years, Mexican male.
14 Suspect No.3, five eleven, slim build, dark hair,
15 short, wearing Levi's, red long-sleaved shirt, aged 18 to 20,
16 Mexican male.
17
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28
Q. After that, is that when you started to talk a
little bit about baseball?
A. We might have talked about it at that pOint. There
was times when it was, the questioning was broke before that.
To exactly what time that was done, I wouldn't recall.
Qe Did you then, after you got the information, did
you then try and develop that a little bit further by trying to
get some idea of what the suspects were doing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you use the word "suspect" with these
particular people?
A. No, sir, I did not.
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6030
Q. How did you refer to them?
A. I told Josh that we were going to talk about the
three people that were at his house at dusk, and I wanted him to
get the No. 1 guy in his mind. And then we talked, then we went
to the No. 2 guy, and the No. 3 guy.
Q. SO, after you got all three guys and had them all
described, with shirts and all, did you then still refer to them
as the three guys that had gone in his house at night, or how
did you refer to them?
A. I asked him what the three guys talked about with
11 his dad,
12
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19
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22
Q. Did you say, three guys? Was that the word you
used, or three Mexicans, three young guys. Do you recall?
A. I would have said "guysn.
Q. At that point in time, had you asked -- as you were
asking at the time, you were asking about the conversations the
people that Josh had described as young Mexican had had with his
father, had you done anything to try and determine whether or
not the three guys that had been at his house yesterday had ever
come back to the house that evening?
A. Not at that point, no, sir.
Q. So you continued talking about the three guys and
23 did you get information that they were not there to talk about
24 horses?
25
26
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And that Josh wasn't quite sure what they were
27 there for, perhaps to get directions or something.
28 A. Yes, sir.
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6031
1 Q. How did you -- how did you determine that there was
2 this doubt in Josh's mind about what they were there for. Was
3 that because he gave you inconsistent responses?
4 A. Yeah. At that point I was going through a number
5 of things, did they talk to your dad about horses, negative.
6 Did they talk to your dad about work, negative. Did they talk
7 to your dad about directions, negative.
8 And then I ran out of things to say, so I would
9 have said something similar, do you believe that possibly your
10 dad would have been giving directions? That was an affirmative
11 response.
12 Q. Basically you would come -- after a long period
13 when Josh would just lie there without squeezing your hand.
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24
A. Yes, sir.
Q. During that period of time did Josh have his eyes
closed?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure about that?
A. I don't believe he did. He might have, you know,
closed it for a few seconds, but nothing for any length of
period of time.
Q. Did you talk about baseball in that period of time?
A. We could have.
Q. After that, well, that was not -- you didn't really
25 get any hard information out of that particular type
26 conversation trying to figure out what the purpose of the
27 Mexicans being there waS1 is that right?
28 A. Not at that point, no, sir.
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6032
Q. Then at that point after you got the information
about the conversations with his father, did you, did you at
that point in time try and find out whether or not those people
had come back later or whether they were the same people he
talked about earlier, or did you go back in to some other
subject?
A.
Q ..
A.
Q.
A ..
Q.
I went back into some other subject ..
And what was that?
I again asked him about the vehicle ..
Did you go through the whole thing again?
Yes, sir ..
And was this again the vehicle that the three guys
13 had been in that you were talking to him about?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And you specified it in those particular terms; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. At that point in time, the information you got was
19 all consistent with information that you had received earlier?
20
21
A.
Q.
With the exception of one part, yes, sir.
Well, the one thing that was different about this
22 particular go around was that Josh would refer to the vehicle as
23 a low-rider; is that right? Somehow you got the idea that he
24 was referring to it as a low-rider.
25 A. Yes, sir. And Josh advised that the vehicle had a
26 appeared small to him.
27 Q. That wasn't necessarily inconsistent with what he
28 had said earlier, just additional; is that right?
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6033
A. Well, I thought it was inconsistent, because of the
fact that a Chevy Impala is a large car.
Q. At that point in time did you know what size the
vehicles that Josh's family had?
A. No, sir, I did not, with the exception that I had a
conversation on the phone with Sergeant Arthur and he asked me
to ask Josh if the family had owned a white station wagon. I
did not know if they had owned it at that time, I was just asked
to ask it.
Q. When you were given the information from Sergeant
Arthur about the white station wagon, was it described to you in
anymore particular area than a white station wagon?
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
No make, no year, anything of that nature?
No, sir.
Q. When you were asking the questions to Josh, were
you aware that the Ryens station wagon was in fact a panelled
station wagon?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. The information about the vehicle being a low-rider
that the three guys had had, how was that developed?
A. Due to the description that he gave me of the
vehicle, Chevy Impala, older model Chevy Impala, this was what
many vehicles look like and what is commonly known in the
streets as a low-rider.
Q. Did you -- so what you asked him, did you ask him
if he knew what a low-rider was?
A. No, I asked him if it was a low-rider.
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Q. You just assumed that Josh knew?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that pOint in time he ,squeezed your hand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you asked Josh the question that Sergeant
Arthur wanted you to ask him about the station wagon,
essentially you got -- you asked him in what words?
A. I asked him if his family had owned a station
wagon. Negative response.
6034
I then asked him if he had seen a station wagon
around the area or anything. We spent a great deal of time on
that station wagon and nothing I got was positive.
Q. Well, in your report do you know that that's
important to the prosecution?
A. The station wagon?
Q. Yeah.
A. I know there was a station wagon missing.
Q. In your particular testimony --
A. I would not know whether that it was important or
not.
Q. In your report did you describe this extensive
conversation?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you put in your report?
A. I asked the victim if his family owned a white
station wagon. The reply was negative.
Q. Reply singular?
A. Yes, sir.
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6035
Q. After that did you make some effort in your mind --
did you attempt in your own mind to try and see whether or not
the three Mexicans were in any way associated with the three
White males?
A. I asked him if he felt that these were the people
that were in his house this morning when everything went crazy.
Q. Is that the way that you phrased the question?
A. Yes, that is.
Q.
A.
So you said Rthis morning"?
Yes, sir.
11 Q. In the hospital, there in the CAT Scan room, were
12 there any windows through which it would have been possible for
13 Josh to look out and see what time of day it was?
14 A. There's windows in the CAT Scan room where you can
15 seen a person laying down. Whether or not there was a clock
16 there, I wouldn't recall.
17 Q. I was just thinking, would you be able to look out
18 and see trees and
19
20
21
A.
Q.
A.
No.
-- daylight?
No, sir. It is just a window that would be between
22 the controls of the CAT Scan and the CAT Scan machine itself.
23 It is inside, there is no outside windows.
24 Q. SO, there, as you sat there in the CAT Scan room
25 you didn't have a watch to look at, there would be no way for
26 you to know what time it was; is that correct?
27
28
A.
Q.
That is correct.
And when you asked that question, urn, about people
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6036
1 that were in the house this morning when everything went crazy,
2 he squeezed your hand.
3
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10
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That question was asked within three or four
minutes of the end of the conversation you had with Josh?
A. Yes, it was at the end.
Q. Did he show any signs of fatigue?
A. I wouldn't say whether -- I couldn't say whether it
was fatigue or not.
Q. Did he act like he was in pain?
11 A. I could not say that, you know, he's in that
12 condition. You know, he was not crying or anything like that.
13 Q. Did he have anything on his arms?
14
15
A.
Q.
I don't recall if an IV was hooked in or not.
Had you seen anybody administer any anesthetic to
16 him.
17 A. No, sir, I did not.
18 Q. Had you seen -- had you seen anybody administer any
19 kind of drugs to him?
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
A.
Q.
No, sir, I did not.
Do you know if it was during this particular period
of time that you he drifted off and you reawakened his interest
through baseball?
A. I don't believe so at this time. In looking at my
report I would not say that this was one of the times it
happened.
Q. Well, your report has no reference to baseball
28 whatsoever, right?
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6037
A. No, sir. it does not. I
2 Q. You mentioned baseball I believe for the first time
3 at the Hitch motion.
A. I believe that's when it was, yes, sir. 4
5
6
7
8
9
Q. So, what about your report is it that leads you to
believe that that was the time -- that wasn't the time you
talked to him about baseball?
10
11
A.
asked him
suspects,
Q.
12 suspects?
13
14
A.
Q.
15 question?
A.
if
to
Well, because it would have been either then I
he felt he could identify either one or all of
which he advised in the affirmative.
So he identified said he could identify the
Yes, sir.
And -- okay. Is that the way you asked the
Yes, sir, I believe so.
the
16
17 MR. NEGUS: Can the record reflect there was a least a
18 ten second pause, I believe, between the question and the
19 answer.
20
21
MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Something close to that. I didn't count
22 them. There was a pause.
23 BY MR. NEGUS:
24
26
27
28
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Was the pause you were thinking about the word
No, sir. I was thinking about the word -identify.
Used the word -suspect".
No, sir, I did not.
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6038
Q. Why did you put that in the report?
A. Because that would be the normal way that I would
tape --well, again, I'm putting the idea there, something,
either one or all of the people, guys.
Q. At that point in time did you specify whether you
were talking about White guys or Mexican guys?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever, perhaps when you were -- I take it
this was probably not easy work for you. Is that true?
A. I have had easier interviews, yes, sir.
Q. I understand the problem.
Did you do you think that you might have, during
the course of what I am sure was a very stressful
interview for you, slip into using your customary words like
"suspects" in some occasions and not used it in others?
A. I don't believe so. Because of trying to stay away
from the word "suspect", not because I believe that would have
bothered Josh but because I would have wondered if he understood
what I meant by the word "suspect".
Q. Well, in an age where everybody watches television,
do you think that is a hard word for a kid to understand?
A. I wouldn't know.
Q. Did you think that it was harder for a kid to
understand phrases like "suspectsR rather than people who were
there at dusk, or three guys, or whatever?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In asking the questions, once you began being aware
that there was a -- at one point in time a description of three
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6039
White males, another pOint in time three Mexican males, in
asking your questions, did you do anything to try and
distinguish for Josh the three White males from the three
Mexicans so you could have one word to refer to the three
suspects, another word for three Mexicans, another for three
White guys, or Impala, or something like that?
A. I did later on in the report, not at that point.
Q. You did go on for until the last three minutes and
you did try and distinguish; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's basically the question that you asked,
12 were these three guys the same as the guys that were there in
13
14
the morning when everybody went crazy?
A. If he felt these were the people in the same house
15 the morning when everything went crazy. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Were you at all concerned about confusing Josh?
17
18
19
20
21
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You, as far as the last question that you asked
Josh, it took you three sentences essentially to describe, is
that right in your report?
A. Are you talking in reference to the Mexicans rather
22 than the White male adults?
23 Q. Yeah. It took you essentially three sentences to
24 describe that.
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I believe that's it, yes, sir.
Could you read those, please.
Starting with ·when everything went crazy?-
Well, no. I was thinking of the exact last -- -I
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6040
again asked the victim.-
That is the last question that you asked, right?
A. wI again asked the victim if he was sure it was
three Mexicans rather than the three White male adults. The
victim advised of three Mexicans. The victim moved up his
shoulders than appeared to be confused. w
Q. Let's see. I take it that there -- did Josh hold
up like three fingers or he didn't say three Mexicans or mouth
three Mexicans, anything like that.
A. No, sir.
Q. Was that the three Mexicans, was the Mexican answer
the affirmative or the negative at that particular qUestion, or
do you remember?
A. It would have been the affirmative, I believe,
because that's what we were talking about, the Mexicans at that
point.
Q. Well, you said how did you put it to him in
asking the question whether the way you have it written down
is that you asked him three Mexicans rather than three White
males.
I mean, how did you translate that into a question
that could be answered as yes or no, or did you?
A. I asked him if he was sure it was the three
Mexicans rather than the three White guys.
Q. Why didn't you put that in your report?
A. Again, the terminology I would use in dictating the
report, 11m getting the idea across.
Q. SO you got a hand squeeze and then a shrug_
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6041
A. Yeah.
O. Then you stopped.
A. At that time I had to, yes, sir.
O. When you said "had to·, that was the time to take
Josh away.
A. Yes, sir. I believe at that point, just prior to
that point, he started to drift off again and we talked about
baseball.
O. Toward the end Josh was drifting away, tired,
perhaps confused by the questions you'd asked him.
A. I wouldn't know. You know, he appeared to be
confused to me as far as that particular question, yes, sir.
O. When you asked that last question, it was just in
the phrase of -- it was without specifying whether it was
attackers, suspects, guys who talked to his father at the house,
right?
A. It was asked after I had asked the other question,
yes, sir.
Q. Well, you are starting to mix him up because you
were asking questions toward the end, were you not?
A. I didn't feel I was, and I felt that he was
confused about the answer that he had given me rather than the
question.
Q. That was your subjective feeling then basically
again without anything objective to go on.
A. Yes, sir.
O. After that particular date, June the 5th, you were
allowed to participate in the Ryen investigation doing follow-up
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6042
investigation on some issues7 is that correct?
A. After the afternoon of June the 6th, I had a little
bit in the morning of June the 6th. Yes, sir.
Q. Generally, an officer on patrol does not
participate in follow-up investigations; is that correct?
A. With the Sheriff's office we have been known to
participate in investigations as well as patrol functions.
Q. But that's not part of your general duties, is it?
Normally you would be the -- once you have taken a report it is
turned over to the detectives and they do the follow-up, right?
A. That is not true, sir. With the Sheriff's office
it is not uncommon for us at all to take the report and continue
the investigation and continue the follow-up investigation.
Q. Well, were you permitted to take part in the
follow-up investigation of this particular case because you had
information directly from Josh Ryen which was considered to be a
valuable asset?
A. No, sir.
Q. And they just plucked you out of central patrol.
A. No, sir. What happened is I had worked the
following Monday, which was the 6th, and then Tuesday and
Wednesday were my days off. I advised Sergeant Arthur if he
needed some help that I would be willing to work out there on my
days off.
Q. When you did work out there on your days off, on
the 8th of June, after the hideout house had been discovered,
you were assigned to attempt to interview people who had seen
three White males whom were -- at least were called as
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6043
1 suspicious in the area; is that right?
A. No, sir, I wasn't. 2
3
4
5
Q. Did you go around on June the 8th with Phil Dana?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And did that involve interviews of people who had
6 been at the Canyon Corral bar on night of June the 4th, 1983?
7 A. I believe. that there was an interview conducted,
8 when Detective Dana and myself went to the Canyon bar, detective
9 Dana and I both went in, but I, shortly thereafter, left and
10 went outside and was talking to Deputy Rodney Hoops who was on
11 patrol in the area, and I was talking with him.
12 Q. Didn't you participate in various interviews with
13 the people involved in that -- at the Canyon Corral Bar?
14
15
A.
Q.
16 on Whirlaway?
17
18
A.
Q.
No, sir, I don't believe so.
How about Kathy Royals, did you go out to her house
Yes, sir, I believe I did.
And did you go down to the La Vita Restaurant down
19 Carbon Canyon and the Canyon Corral Bar?
20 Yes, sir, I did. A.
Q. 21 At that pOint you talked to, amongst other people,
22 Mary Risi?
23 I didn't. A.
Q. 24 You were present when --
A. 25 Yes, sir, I was.
A.
Q. 27 And while Mr. Dana was doing that, did you assist
28 him with the information that you obtained from Josh about the
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6044
three suspects?
A. Detective Dana already knew that, yes, sir.
Q. From you?
A. I had given the information in a briefing that
occurred on June 6th at approximately 700 hours, I believe.
Q. SO, at 7:00 o'clock in the morning on June the 6th,
you attended a briefing at the west End Sheriff's Department.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Hector O'Campo there?
A. I don't recall.
Q. At the time that Josh was taken away after you
asked your last question, was he taken then to surgery?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nothing further.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Deputy Sharp, before you went in to the emergency
room you told us that you talked to the paramedics for just a
moment or two?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall what was discussed with them?
A. The crime scene.
Q. Nothing about the types of wounds that Josh had
received?
A. No, sir.
Q. During the time that you were in the emergency
room, did that particular room have a lot of movement of
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6045
1 individuals in and out of the room?
2
3
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And were there people just standing around
4 watching?
5
6
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
And you saw the gentlemen that testified before
7 you?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did that gentlemen, Mr. Gamundoy, stand somewhere
10 in the audience and observe what was going on in the emergency
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room?
A. I do not remember Mr. Gamundoy being there.
Q. The emergency room was a scene of confusion when
you were there, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, people were shouting questions and orders
all at the same.time?
MR. NEGUS: Objection. Leading.
MR. KOTTMEIER: That's a unique objection since this is
cross-examination.
MR. NEGUS: I believe that's not correct.
THE COURT: He treated the witness all the way through,
Mr. Kottmeier, as if on cross-examination. There was no
objection. On that basis, I will sustain his objection.
BY MR. KOTTMEIER:
Q. Can you describe for us the scene in the emergency
room while you were trying to talk to Josh?
A. There was a lot of movement1 the noise level was
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT
6046
1 very high, these types of things.
2 Q. Did you ever see Josh hold up three fingers in
3 response to any of the questioning?
4 A. No, sir, I did not.
5 Q. While in the emergency room, can you describe how
6 Josh appeared facially?
7 A. He had color in his face. Even though, with the
8 types of wounds he had and everything, I thought he lo~ked good.
9 Q. Well, during the time that you talked to him in the
10 emergency room, did he ever appear confused or disoriented?
11 A. There were times that I thought he was drifting off
12 into unconsciousness.
13 Q. Any time as far as the expression in his eyes that
14 you noticed any confusion?
15 A. There were times when he would close his eyes and
16 turn his head a little bit, and at this point I felt that,
17 again, he was dropping offer into unconsciousness.
18 As far as being confused, he looked around a lot as
19 if confused about the -- where he was at, this type of thing.
20 Q. What was happening to him?
21
22
23
24
25
26
A. What was happening to him; yes, sir.
Q. While you were talking people were working on his
head and his upper body portion?
A. There were some people standing there and they were
doing some things, as to exactly what, I don't recall.
Q. Now, you testified on direct to approximately four
27 subject areas that occurred during the emergency room
28 conversations or communications you had with Josh.
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A. Four what, sir?
Q. Subject areas. Could you give us the order in
which these four subjects were discussed in the emergency room?
A. Are you making reference to his name, date of
birth, age and phone number?
Q. No, those are things that you got or were
communicated to you
A. Okay.
Q. -- correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There were, beginning with the three White male
subjects in the residence when he was asleep statement, that
would be the first?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
outside.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
The second subject was?
He was awakened in the early morning_
All right.
The third would be the time of the morning.
And the fourth would be that it was still dark
And maybe a fifth?
That he did not know who the subjects were.
Is that the order in which the information was
24 received from Josh?
25
26
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
When you got the time, specifically how was that
27 done? How did you achieve the time of being between 4:00 and
28 5:00 o'clock?
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A. I held his hand, told him when I reached the time
to let me know. I counted 1, 2, 3, 4. I got an affirmative. I
continued to go 5. I got an affirmative. I got an affirmative.
6, I got no squeeze.
Q. During the time that you were in the emergency room
with Josh, were you particularly interested in getting
information about the crime?
A. I was interested, First of all, in Josh's
well-being. I felt that took a precedence over the crime.
Seems to me there is just some times that that has to, and I
felt that that was one of those times.
The -- the thing that I was looking for was for
more of investigative leads. I wasn't planning on solving the
crime at that point. I wanted to get some types of leads that I
could give to Sergeant Arthur so that we could have a way to go
on it.
Q. Were you particularly careful in listening to the
questions that other people were asking of Josh to make sure
that they did not ask questions about in quotes, "the attack"?
A. I was not listening to their questions. If someone
would have mentioned the word Rattack, attackers, the family·,
this type of thing, I would have picked up on it and told them
not to say it.
Q. In the emergency room, were people giving you
questions to ask Josh?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you contrast the difference, if any, in the
appearance of the emergency room with the CAT Scan interview
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that you did with Josh?
A. The rooms themselves?
Q. No, just the circumstances, what went on.
A. In the emergency room you've got several people
running around, You've got people standing --
If I can show you, this is a partition here. This
partition was open. You've got a number of people standing
here. I believe, as stated, there was approximately five people
around the bed at one time. I was there. A high noise level.
A great deal of -- if we were to look in at it now we would say
confusion.
In the CAT Scan room at one time there was three
people in there. When I was talking to Josh I believe there was
only one. And once in awhile there was somebody in the room
with me there, but for the most part the one person was behind
the glass where the machine that runs the CAT Scan is located.
It was much quieter in there and it allowed me to ask a lot more
questions, this type of thing.
Q. Also, while you were in the CAT Scan room, were
they physically doing anything to Josh's head or upper body
area?
A. When we first went in there I had to wait
approximately 45 minutes to interview Josh at that pOint because
they ran the CAT Scan machine. And I was able to look on the
matchine that runs it and watch how they do it and this type of
thing.
Q. And after that was completed you were able to talk
to him?'
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were talking to him and asking him the
questions and getting the hand squeezes was there any activity
being done to Josh's body at that time?
A. Not at that time, no, sir.
Q. During the time that you were in the emergency
room, how many uniformed deputy sheriffs did you see other than
yourself?
A. None.
Q. How many detectives did you see from the San
Bernadino County Sheriff's Office within the emergency room?
A. There was not any. I had made a phone call to
Sergeant Arthur the first time I talked to him and I had asked
him, nWhen are you going to get a detective over here?" And he
advised me that he had none available at that time to go ahead
16 and get the information from Josh.
17 Q. SO, you're all by yourself for law enforcement?
18
19
A.
Q.
Yes, sir.
In regard to one of the questions that you asked in
20 the Cat Scan interview, and I use that just to refer to the
21 pOint in time, you had gone through the description of all of
22 the Mexican subjects and asked the question: nDo you feel these
23 were the people that were in your house this morning when
24 everything went crazy?"
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A.
Q.
question?
A.
Yes, sir.
Are those the words that you used in asking that
Yes, sir.
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Q. And Josh's answer?
A. Was affirmative.
Q. Squeezed your hand?
A. Squeezed my hand.
Q. And then later when you came back to the subject
asking him whether it was the three Mexicans or the three white
guys or -- it was the three Mexicans and not the three White
guys, he gave you an affirmative squeeze?
know."?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then shrugged his shoulders like aI don't
A. Yes, sir.
MR. KOTTMEIER: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Negus.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEGUS:
Q. Before -- before you were allowed to question
Josh, -- well, essentially did you wait till you were told by
the doctors that it was okay to question him?
A. Yeah. It seems to me that there were a number of
people there, and I was standing there at the partition where I
pointed. And I asked somebody, "Can I talk to him now?a And
they stated, "Yes."
I would not have just you know, I can't exactly
remember who this person was or is or anything like that, but I
would not have just barged in and started asking him questions
again.
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o. way out?
A.
possible.
6052
Is it possible that person was Mr. Gamundoy on his
Since I don't recall the person, yes, that's
O. Could you then let's put -0.5.-, your initials for
the spot where -- let's use black here just so we can
understand -- for where you were standing then at that pOint in
time?
A. (Witness complied.)
10 Q. And then there were -- there were numerous people
11 then between you and Josh; is that right?
12 A. There were a few people standing right in here,
13 yes, sir, I think so.
14 O. Which direction -- direction on the bed was Josh's
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head?
A. It was at this end here (indicating).
Q. The people then that were working around Josh would
have had their backs to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The lady medical person that you believe to be a
murse that was asking Josh some questions using the clipboard,
where was she -- where was she positioned?
A. Well, when I walked in, this was at this point I
checked with somebody, when I walked in she was right here and I
went right,here (indicating).
Q. That was after you made your way to Josh's bedside?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So when you got to Josh's pedside did you
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essentially immediately take over the questioning and beg inn
asking things?
A. No, sir. I felt that the questioning that they
were doing as far as their hospital information that they would
need that they were doing adequate and there was no reason of me
barging in and, you know, taking over the scene. I waited until
she was done with the hospital information, and then I got
she subsequently came around this way. I believe she left. And
I got in next to Joshua there and then I began my questioning.
Q. SO, were you sitting in the same spot, the ·x· there, when you were questioning Josh?
A. Maybe down just a little bit further and bent over
to where the nX· is, yes.
Q. Okay. So you are on that side of the bed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you can sit down if you want to.
Q. At the -- at the Hitch motion, in addition to Mr.
Gamundoy, did you see a gentlemen there identified as Calvin
Fisher?
A. As who?
Q. Calvin Fisher?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you see another Loma Linda -- person from Loma
Linda who was present at the Hitch hearing the same day that you
testified and Mr. Gamundoy testified?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there anybody there that you were able to
identify as a neurologist?
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6054
A. No, sir, there wasn't, not that I could identify.
Q. Well, did you ask any of the medical personnel
whether they had determined that Josh was alert and conscious
and able to respond to your questions?
A. No, sir, I did not. When I asked whoever it was
can I talk to him now and they said yes, I assume at that point
that they are meaning that he is alert enough for me to talk to.
Q. Was there any paramedics present in addition to the
Chino -- the guy from Chino in the blue uniform?
10 A. I didn't see any, no, sir.
11 Q. Did you see -- are you familiar with the Life-Flite
12 paramedics?
13 A. No, sir, I'm not.
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Q. Were there other people in the room in uniforms
besides yourself?
A. Well, in thinking about the question that has come
up on another deputy sheriff being there, I did not see anyone
there, although, if I recall correctly the Loma Linda security,
either the campus security or the hospital security wear
uniforms that are similar to ours.
Q. Okay. So it's possible then that there were people
in a uniform similar to yours in the room then
A. In the
Q. not in the little partitioned off area where
25 Josh was --
26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
No.
-- but in the greater emergency room area?
They could have been out there, sure, because they
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6055
are all going through that area there to get out to this parking
lot area.
Q. Also once -- once it was known that what you had
4 here, did a fair amount of people come to gawk and sightsee?
5 A. There were some, yes, sir.
6 Q. And generally, in your experience police security
7 personnel are not immune from that sort of activity; is that
8 correct?
9 A. That's true.
10 MR. NEGUS: If I could just add, your Honor, by reading
11 from Page 1824 of the previous hearing, the question and answer
12
13
14
beginning on Line 22, that page, and going over to 1825 line 4.
15 Line 4.
MR. KOTTMEIER: I did not hear the lines, your Honor.
MR. NEGUS: 1824 Line 22, last question, over to 1825
16 THE COURT: Do you have it, Mr. Kottmeier?
17 MR. KOTTMEIER: I have the location, your Honor, but I
18 have not read the entire page that he is talking about reading.
19 MR. NEGUS: It's just nine lines.
20 MR. KOTTMEIER: I have the location.
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THE COURT: I'm sorry_
MR. KOTTMEIER: I have the location. I have the page.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. NEGUS: (Reading)
"Question: What were you doing in the ten
minutes that it took you from the time you
made the phone call to get into the
emergency room, just waiting around?
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8 Q.
6056
"Answer: No, sir. I made contact with the
paramedics that had flown him in trying to get
some information as to what had happened so if I
was going to ask any questions I would have an
idea of what to what to ask, what to stay away
from. I did not know how much the victim knew. I
found out his condition, these type of things. A
Is it possible that during that particular period
9 of time you could have heard from Mr. Guerrero that there was
10 suspected gunshot wounds and a machete involved in the attack?
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
I did not hear that from him, no, sir.
What did you hear about Josh's condition?
I did not hear anything about Josh's condition from
14 a paramedic. That's when I asked somebody, you know, is it okay
15 To talk to him and go in. That's all I knew, his condition was
16 that I could talk to him. I believe --
17 Now the thing here as far as Mr. Guerrero or any
18 statements that were made there, I did not hear any. Now again,
19 we are talking about several people standing around, and if he
20 turned and said something to somebody that I didn't hear, then,
21 you know, I didn't hear it.
22 Q. Okay. At the prior hearing though you indicated
23 though that the paramedics told you about what had happened?
24 A. I don't believe that's what it says there.
25 Q. It says, "I made contact with the paramedics in
26 trying to get some information as to what had happened. A
27
28 A.
Did you ask information as to what had happened?
That's where I received the information about the
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crime scene.
O. Okay. And did you -- you found out his condition?
A. I found out the condition from the person.
O. From the paramedics?
A. From the person that told me I could go in.
O. Well, you didn't specify that when you testified
before, did you?
A. No. That's what I was doing there, waiting during
that ten minutes.
Your question was what were you doing during the
ten minutes and I answered that question, sir.
O. Did you ask any of the other people anything about
hearing about gunshot wounds or machete?
A. No, sir, I did not.
MR. NEGUS: Nothing further.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Just one question.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. KOTTMEIER
Q. Deputy Sharp, did Josh appear to be better when you
talked to him in the CAT Scan room, color and so on?
A. There -- when we first went in, yesr sir.
MR. KOTTMEIER: Nothing further, your Honor.
MR. NEGUS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Thank you, Deputy Sharp.
Till tomorrow morning at 9:30. I will remind you
do not discuss the case with any other person. Don't let
anybody discuss it with you, nor yet or express or form an
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6058
1 opinion on the matter. Have a good evening. See you tomorrow
2 morning.
3 MR. NEGUS: Judge, before you get off the bench could I
4 ask you one thing about witness scheduling? It doesn't matter
5 about the jurors.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead.
7 MR. NEGUS: I expect Mr. O'Campo to last all day
8 tomorrow. I could be wrong by no more than a half an hour.
9 The next witness they have is coming in from
10 Billings, Montana. The witness after that is only available on
11 Thursday. So if I could have permission if we run out, it won1t
12 be more than a half an hour early on Mr. OICampo tomorrow.
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years.
THE COURT: I haven't drawn and quartered anybody in
MR. NEGUS: I know.
THE COURT: Okay. All right.
(Adjournment.)
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