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live4golf
But not swit.
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you
are inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect
golf swing. – BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
swit…hahahaha
Hello, 911? It’s Quagmire. Yeah, it’s caught in the window this time.
Giggity, giggity, giggity, giggity!

My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,
Good luck with that one!
down and outâ€¦did ya get that?
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with machine
testing….
live4golf

righto, so what are the different situations you would hit rather than
swing (or swing rather than hit)? – short irons, drives, punches….what
are the best ways to apply each type of swing…and are all people
capable of being a swinger and a hitter?
Beautiful, thanks for the understandable explanation Lag and Guru. I
have just realised, or more to the point, confirmed in my mind, I am a
swinger. Makes life a whole lot easier to put into practice some of the
things I have taken from these threads and also knowing what is not for
me. As Guru would say, lightbulb has come on and the mist is clearing.
I am sure it should have come on earlier, but I was missing the switch.
The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it right every time. Oh
I wish…..
KOC

Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and
effortless looking (donâ€™t be fooled though)
Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of
thing
I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is
much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a
hitter for sureâ€¦ Swinging can give you tremendous length with
the proper application, and minimal overall body strength.
If you want to just flat out hit it longâ€¦ swing.. If you want to
rarely miss a fairway, hit
Hi Lag Pressure,
Welcome to Hellâ€¦ I mean ISGâ€¦ hahaha (only joking admin!)
I happen to agree with Serenty, I donâ€™t doubt your knowledge
but I think you have over generalised a tad.
Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class myself
as primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to fully
wind up.
Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the other,
http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/18-ask-golf-guru-golf-instruction/topics/24374-lets-talk-lags-golf-machine?page=2 (4 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs and
golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and swinging.
To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as I
am extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.
Let me explain:
I personally have a long backswing wind up â€“ slow and
controlled. At the beginning of the downswing I â€œpullâ€• the
club into what I would term a â€œhitting slotâ€•. From here I hit
hard with the right hand snapping the club through impact. For me
on the way back is a â€œswingâ€•, from halfway down point in
the downswing I am very aggressive and take advantage of
muscular strength to â€œhitâ€• the ball.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)
As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off the
tee, I think you will find that almost every long driver in the world
would describe a strong â€œhittingâ€• sensation through the
impact zone with the dominant trailing hand. By the same token It
would be rare to find one though that doesnâ€™t exhibit the long
flowing backswing of a â€œswingerâ€•.
Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com
Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging
sensation in a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?
Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.
Cliffmanley

hmmm now I am crying in my golf bag, getting my mouldy sangers wet,
staining my wet weather gear, I’ve finally worked out that I CAN’T
have just one swing, I have to hit my chips, I must hit my punches, it’s
why I’ve been struggling from around 100m….. aaahhhhhhhhhhgggggrrrr
I hate this forum, it teaches me stuff, now I gotta practice again….
ahhh an excuse to practice… ohk that’s cool, feeling better now, not so
depressed….
Now where’s that driving range, oh yeah, just where I left it….
Cliff Manley
ahhh “consistency” the holy grail of golf….
“You’re no man! You’re a Bishop, for god’s Sakes…!”
Golf is Chess with Balls!!!
iseekgolfguru

Gotta love learning:) This place may shake a mind or two. We hope in
the long run to a better understanding of swing (or hit) so that you can
do it better more often.
KOC

Where is the Dart? Sir…You must say something on this matter. You
preferred Hitting over Swinging when I first knew your name, but lately
you said that you changed the ship captain.
Why?
Toolish
My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER
impact,
down and outâ€¦did ya get that?
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with
machine testingâ€¦.
down and out…did ya get that?
KOC
And Brain sometime said himself…. “I was dead wrong”....
I will find the clip Johnny said at TGC. Of course, Johnny might be
dead wrong…
iseekgolfguru

Dart must be out for the day…..maybe even 9 holes? ?
Dart teaches you how to hit first, then swing. I would suggest that
there is no preferred pattern as such, just what the individual is more
physically capable of doing better one way than the other.
Stick man me can hit but without much strength, swinging for distance
is a must. I can hit pretty straight over shorter distances though. Just
got to make my mind up before I hit the ball what I am going to do.
(Note to self: the brain needs to be engaged in that decision making
process before walking up to the ball)
lagpressure

Well as far as the 5th accumulator goes, if anyone has ever actually
built a plane to swing on, you find out quickly that the club does not
ride on a perfect flat plane like in Hogan’s book. It would be pretty
flat… and if you believe as I do that the true objective of the swing is
to have the clubhead traveling faster after impact than before, (true
pre stressed shaft flex to the ball and beyond) you are going to have to
be applying some serious forces upon that shaft long after impact..
This is where that final plane shift from elbow plane to shoulder plane
takes place. I believe the secret lies here…
I have one word.. Peter Senior… I saw it.. I was there, in the late 80’s
in Australia, no one hit it better than Peter Senior..not Norman, not
Faldo, not O Grady….. and I believe Hogan did the same.
So after Accumulator #4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip
cleared, the right arm is extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent,
what is left to keep accelerating?
Think on these things..
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
lagpressure
The Iron Byron machine does it..
Mac O claims to do it..
I would say from my personal experience, and the use of high speed
cameras, it is possible to hold the flex to the ball and beyond without a
pork chop divot.
the secret 5th accumulator..
I think it parallels golf itself.. the closer you get to it, the better you
will be..
KOC
Member since 2003
lag’: Playing the devils advocate here, the high speed shots of late are
said to show the shaft does not stay stressed through impact.
I had discussions with Mr Wishon have these photos showing the shafts
‘spent’ even with a snap release. If you have some stressed ones
please throw them down the e-mail pipe. You can wear a mask if you
wish:)
Homer threw everyone a clue with the Flat LEVEL and Vertical (ie not
View Monitored Posts

uncocked) to keep the acceleration through impact. But you have said
your 5th is post that point anyway.
Aussie_Bomber

“Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.”
What is four barrel? (In simple terms and how is it performed?)
Snap release – Is this accompanied by a “roll release”? Is snap release
and roll release the same?
I had a bit of a play at the range today and found that I was “block”
releasing have been getting pain on the Ulna side of my wrist. I
implemented a “roll” release (from baseball days – Sorry Bio forgotten
correct TGM terminolgy) and started hitting the hardest flying draw.
My swing speed climbed into the 140’s a couple of times and bottomed
out in the mid 130’s. I also had more penetration on my ball flight
through the air. Control was much easier as I could am down the right
and snap as hard as I could, ending down the left at worst.
Is this a product of “roll” releasing?
Would this from a mechanical viewpoint:
1. Increase clubhead speed?
2. Decrease backspin rate (due to clubhead rolling and imparting right
to left spin) and produce a “hotter” flight
I feel as Guru says: Today felt like a light bulb moment…
lagpressure

I do believe what we are talking here is the holy grail of golf.
Difficult and as ever elusive as the game itself.. From my own swing
lab, using 10K shutter camera film I do have some shots of it
somewhere. I remember having seen the Iron Byron Machine do it.
When I was in top form back in the late 80’s I felt I could do it hitting
but not swinging and I have some video somewhere to demonstrate it.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I did put it to the test, and was able to take
home a win on the Canadian Tour, blades, persimmon, four rounds in
the 60’s and 17 under, back when that actually meant something! lol…
right around that time I had a round at Madera CC where I hit the pin 4
times in a round from fairways. That was telling me I was on the right
track.
Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will
release. Pictures of a swing might appear to have a delayed shaft angle
or what most call lag, but the shaft itself may be telling a different
story.
I for one am a lover of over acceleration from the top! lol.. never
throwing the club, but if my torso moves too fast from the top, and I
put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes
holding the flex impossible. X shafts did wonders for me on days like
this, as I would still be able to hit greens and keep the ball in play, but
not knocking down pins.
Mac was big on firing #1 first, but really to just get the club back down
from shoulder plane to elbow plane. I personally like that move a lot,
and I used to practice starting down with zero hip turn
and zero shoulder turn then once the club was at the 3rd parallel,
just rip it around with the body as fast as I could with a frozen right
arm till the 4rth parallel. It’s a great way to swing if you can master it
and your goal is to hit it dead straight all day. You have to really feel
and develop what I called a cohesive body tension, where every muscle
in the body is like one solid fiber. I used and applied that concept on
tour, and it was really pressure proof as far as direction. Controlling
distance was more of a challenge under the gun. Like Clampett, I
hated the feeling of tension in the body when I was trying to swing
with well oiled hinges… that’s why he left Doyle… and also why I
eventually did too.. but I never left the golfing machine.. Doyle at
least through the late 80’s only taught swinging. Mac was on the other
side of the fence (hitting)
Swinging for me took a lot of practice, stretching, and all in all my
body just had to feel really loose free and oily..
I couldn’t just step off the plane after a long flight, bad food, and go
to the course and start flushing shots right away. Each week was like
having to re lube the machine and get it all oiled up for Thursday. It
really wore me out over time.. the road is a whole other thing. I saw a
lot of compact short swing hitters just step off the plane at shoot 65 in
a Tuesday round.. I was always quite envious of that until I learned
how to do it myself.
That duel horizontal hinge is just way too much timing for me if I am
on the road trying to make a living playing golf.
As a swinger, I could pure it…but if I was off, it was ugly, I could just
spray it all over the course. When I switched over, I lost some distance
but became a much better striker, and even to this day, I never hit it
all over the course. I can take a year off golf and go out and shoot par
or even better … I have done it..
I could never have done that the old way (swinging) I’m not that
talented.
matt42s

Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will
release.
No – it’s quite a bit more complicated than that.
All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution.
Bio
Lag Pressure,
weclome to the forum, great post, I’m enjoying our stories and
information, drop me a line bome77@ bigppond dot com,
would like to talk further
Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function
matt42s

I put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes
holding the flex impossible
Holding the flex IS practically impossible. I don’t mean practically in
the sense that it is almost impossible. I mean that the only conditions
allowing the flex to be maintained are impractical. For example, you
could “hold the flex” if the hands always moved at a higher speed than
the clubhead. But that wouldn’t be particularly useful for hitting a golf
shot, hence impractical.
Bio
Matt,
You are right, in this sense, but the hands are moving faster than the
club head, up until release,
did some research on this we had a sensor on the hands and a sensor
on the club head.
mass x velocity, hips 300 fps, upper bdoy doulbe in speed 600fps,hands
doubled again, hands were 1200 fps club before impact 1200frps when
released 2400fps fps=frames per second.
in regards to physics and zero acceleration, lagpressure is correct, we
measured this and has been proven, just before impact, hips, upper
body,arms and hands decelerate and mearly completley stop, wasn’t
for centrifugal force of the clubhead you would, it’s momentum of the
clubhead that keeps you powering on
muntz

I’m curious about the sensations of swinging vs hitting. I have a
suspicion I actually started my golfing life as a (clumsy) hitter and have
been trying to transition into a swinger in the last 6 months after
learning about flat left wrists and hinges and swivels.
I recall a session I had on the range with my old driver a few years ago,
where I was taking a shorter than normal backswing and striking the
ball with a hard, compact swing – and getting very long, straight
results. Didn’t really understand what I was doing so I couldn’t pull it
out very often. Also remember a few older golfers say “you hit your
irons a long way considering you only swing with your arms.”
I think I unconsciously revert to a stiffer, hitting “biff” type of action,
rather than the “oily fluid motion” of a swinger, when I’m on the
course especially when I am trying to hit the ball hard. Which
sabotages the rolling / hinging / swivelling action I’ve been working on.
I guess to me the “swinging” swing feels weaker, like it can’t generate
the power I want i.e. I just instinctively want to “biff” the club at the
ball. But if I’m reading this topic right, if the “swing” is coordinated
correctly you can generate more power than a hitter with a relatively
“lazy”, effortless feel. (?)
So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from? Is it a sort of
fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the passive arms
down until the club is released at the last moment with educated
wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of some of
the power?
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you are
inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.
– BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
Swinging only looks graceful, lazy or easy..
Doyle used to describe it to me as like a duck on the water..
it appears to be moving effortlessly across the lake, but underwater
it is paddling really hard, you don’t see that..
You don’t get something for nothing in this game! lol
From a standpoint of feel and what swinging would feel like in my body
Member since 2008

(remember the Golfing Machine says to learn feel from Mechanics, not
the other way around) I would strive for maximum swing radius so I
would float load or drag load the club back to the top, so that my wrist
would not cock until the very end of my backswing, then I would flex
my knees into a big “sitdown” bowlegged thing, this would start the
change in direction, and I would hold 90 degree club shaft angle to the
third parallel with a big gutty upper body rotation into this sit down leg
squat.
Once there the left leg would straighten violently and the hips would
clear fast and you just dump all that inertia onto the ball and into the
ground with loosey goosey free flexible wrist and arms. The thing that
was amazing about this, and so different is that after impact the upper
arms would NOT stay packed and in tight to the body but would just
move out away from the body with a full roll of the wrists, so free and
spent feeling. You just have to trust that the forces that be will
release the club into perfect alignment, and amazingly they do! ... but
with this one disclosure … FREE FLEXIBLE HINGES WITH
A STEADY AND EVEN ACCELERATION on the way down.
So my argument as a practical player and tester of this is that yes it
does work, as long as the brain sends oil to the joints! .. meaning you
don’t tighten up, get nervous or feel any pressure out on the course.
Confidence can go a long way for sure, but that ended for me in the
Australian Open at Royal Melbourne in 1989 when I played some very
fine golf on the toughest windiest fastest greens,
and the longest course I had ever played, a pair of 74’s made the cut
easily and I was 16 back of Greg Norman’s 66-66 opening.
I just couldn’t wrap my brain around that… and in the years I was down
there playing against the worlds greats at that time, Faldo, Woosnam,
Colin Montgomery, and various American pros, this other guy Peter
Senior whom no one over here knew of, but let me say that this guy
would shoot a 64 every week at some point, and I don’t care how hard
it blew or how fast the greens were, or how long it was, or tight or
anything, and he was just drumming everyone then.
People bagged on him because of his swing, but let me tell you the
truth, I have him on high speed camera, and no one ever looked more
like Hogan from the top down past impact, and I have never seen a
golfer hit the ball with such pressure before of since. And what I
believe to be the 5th accumulator, he did it more than anyone ever..
So to end my rant here… I knew my little swinging thing was not going
to cut it in this league of crafty players, that were all hitters and
dynamics was the name of the game..
I went home, and after talking to Mac when he was down under, I
changed over to hitting, and gladly so.. within two years I was hitting
the ball with much more force and control, and found myself in the top
300 in the world after a win in Canada and some other good finishes.
That was as good as golf got for me, and the rest of my saga is a whole
other story.. lol
Cliffmanley

OK, I start my backswing with my shoulders, turning until my wrists
have no choice but to break. This is done totally without thought now,
I’ve been doing it for a few years. Sometimes I will consciously shorten
my backswing that is the only variation here, I use this with all my
clubs including my putter.
If I have been playing regularly and practicing I then start the down
motion with my hips, driving around, up and left, letting my arms
follow when they have to, as my arms begin to follow I release from
the top like a big coil spring. This results in one of two things with my
driver, either I hit it straight and 300m + or if I don’t release quite all
the way through then I will push right. Is this swinging or hitting, it
sounds like swinging to me.
However, if I haven’t been playing much I leave the hip drive until
much later in the swing, I am not sure if I start the swing with my hips
here, I don’t feel like I do, it seems to just be a turn where everything
sort of stays together and there is a much later release. I still feel that
I drive left and up with my hips. This means I still hit the ball around
280-300m but I can work the ball easier, left or right at will. This
sounds like I am hitting?
The two swings aren’t a lot different, just the release point isn’t as
early in swing two.
Circumstances have kept me away from competitive golf for about 8
months so my game hasn’t really been tested, but I shoot in the mid
70s most days without any real practice. Tension doesn’t enter the
equation at the moment due to this lack of competition, but that will
change i am sure. Mentally I feel stronger than I ever have, my
capacity to relax is without question, and I do Pilates twice a day so
the spring is oiled no doubt about that….
Cliff Manley
Bio
Lagpressure,
You mentioned sit down, I’m very happy to hear this,for years I never
understood why doyle would say sit down,until I became a
biomechanist,hence I’m a T.G.M man all the way. BY sitting creates
down force down through your feet, creates axis tilt and hip tilt,
allows you to load hard and then fire your body as you have
mentioned, a misconception alot of people have is rotate hips first,
and doesn’t allow time for loading correctly, instead of tilting first
a tilt of hips or axis tilt or downward motion of the hands and arms
can’t keep up with any type of rotation, This is why some many people
OTT, if they learnt to sit first, there hips tilt and they get axis tilt and
they can load properly. sitting on the down swing is the beginning of
the kinectic chain, creates down force from the feet, hips tilts, axis
tilts, hips rotate, then upper body rotates, arms and hand fires into
impact. every thing double mass x times velocity.
hips 300frp,upper body 600frps,arms and hands 1200frps and club head
2400frps fps=frames per second,
Lagpressure would like to talk more with you and learn some more
I’m a T.G.M boy use biomechanics to teach T.G.M , helps me give
students the feeling of the correct mechanics.
my email is bome77@bigpond dot com
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Lag’: the bowlegged thing I only ever heard the term specifically used
by Bill Skelley who used to work with Lynn Blake before he headed off
into the finance world. Did you ever run into him in your travels? Bill
was a fellow who never did his TGM paperwork yet was a man who
could describe in lay terms all the gear. I learned a heap from him.
Enjoying the threat. Thanks for sharing as the golfing world loves
hearing this sort of stuff and encourages them to keep searching.
lagpressure
Cliffmanley
Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or
swinging,
Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of the
hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally free and
flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and a light
grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very firm
grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first and
most important elements of educated hands…
spike71
Hi Lagpressure,
Thank you for your phenomenal posts!!! It is great to have a G.O.L.F.
thread to allow us a deeper look into precision and power. I can see
you and the Dart having a couple of whiskeys and B.S.-ing into the wee
hours! I was lucky enough to do that and left with more knowledge my
brain could handle….still incubating :)
Your insights into Peter Senior’s skill should be heard World Wide. I
loved watching him on T.V. and would have bent over backwards to
see him live.One of the things that was interesting to me was how he
stood up into his finish with his right side. His move looked to be very
“body friendly”.
I too have switched to a hitting pattern and have thoughly enjoyed its
accuracy and reliability. Drive Loading against the backswing has
eliminated my concerns for good geometry that I relied on during
your experience too?
Also, I am by no means an expert in TGM but absolutely believe in its
principles. You mentioned a 5th Accumulator. Are you alluding to the
bent right wrist?
lagpressure
Hi Guru,
I too never took the TGM exam, as I have never been an official
teacher, but I did spend a lot of time on tour working with some of the
guys that seemed interested in what I was doing. I think I was more of
an early test subject for TGM. Grant Waite and I used to spend a lot
time sharing ideas, Carlos Espinosa, and Vic Wilk who were all fine
players and tour winners and we spent a lot of time together shedding
concepts late into the night over a beer or two. I agree with most of
what Mac says too, but I don’t agree with everything he says. Mainly I
am not a fan of his abrupt plane shift from hands plane to shoulder
plane, and then back down. It is certainly covered in TGM components,
outward forces from the tremendous rotational speed he generates,
but I will tell you that Hogan turned very fast and Peter Senior even
faster, and their hands came in lower through impact.
Depending on shaft flex we know too that the shaft flattens the lie of
the club some, maybe half a degree and maybe more with looser
shafts, so all the more reason to keep those hands in close and low if
you are using radial acceleration and hitting. I am 6 ft tall and have my
irons set at 1 degree flat. Even my old stuff.. I have 10 sets of vintage
irons that I rotate between rounds. I just love all the different feels of
some of those timeless blades. I am still all persimmon too, but don’t
get me started on all that! lol
The closest thing to a flat plane I ever saw was Moe Norman. I talked a
lot with Moe, played with Moe, and I probably have some of the best
video footage of him from 1987 when he still ripped it pretty good. Red
Deer CC in Alberta, all kinds of shots and angles all at 10K shutter
frames..
lagpressure
Lynn Blake
Sounds all to familiar … Was he good friends with Bruce Summerhayes?
I am sure we crossed paths if he was in the Doyle camp back in the
early 80’s
jeffmann
Muntz
You wrote-: “So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from?
Is it a sort of fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the
passive arms down until the club is released at the last moment with
educated wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of
some of the power?”
I think that Homer Kelley adequately answered this question in TGM.
He stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing (involving the
loading and release of 3 power accumulators – numbers 4, 2 and 3
which have to be released in that specific order). Power accumulator
number 4 (angle between the left arm and upper torso) is the source of
most of the swing power in a swinger’s swing – as a flywheel effect.
Homer Kelley stated that the downswing pivot action (flywheel effect)
is primarily responsible for powering power accumulator number 4, and
the faster the downswing pivot action the greater the swing power (eg.
Tiger Woods swing). Power accumulator number 2 (angle between the
left arm and clubshaft) is the second power accumulator to be released
in a swinging action and its power is increased with a delayed snap
release (where the hands turn around a small pulley in the late
downswing – one really needs to understand Homer Kelley’s “endless
belt” effect to really understand the pulley action). Power
accumulator release 3 is actually a transfer power action, and it
provides the least amount of power in a swinging action.
Power accumulator number 1 (straightening of the angle between the
right forearm and right arm at the right elbow joint) provides no active
swing power in a swinging action. The reason is that the centrifugal
action due to release of power accumulator number 2 is so dominant
that the right forearm cannot produce additional swing power in the
late downswing. The right triceps muscle contracts and straightens the
right arm in the late downswing in a swinger, but that muscle action
doesn’t cause the clubshaft to travel faster because the clubshaft is
already traveling at maximum speed due to the super-efficient release
of power accumulator number 2. If a swinger can actively use power
accumulator number 1 in a late hit action (thereby becoming a
switter), then it suggests that his centrifugal action is too slow/weak.
By contrast, in a hitter, power accumulator number 1 is the major
source of swing power and it overrides any centrifugal action due to
release of power accumulator number 2. In fact. the sequence of
power release in a hitter is 1, 2, 3 – and the release force of power
accumulator number 1 actively drives the release action of power
accumulators number 2/3 as an unitary action (rather than the
sequential release of power accumulator number 2 and then 3). A
hitter can use power accumulator number 4 to a certain degree, but
there is a limit to the use of power accumulator number 4 in a hitter’s
action because the hitter needs the right shoulder as a backstop to hit
from – the hitter primarily uses the right shoulder as a launching pad
for the right arm’s muscular throw-out action.
Jeff.
iseekgolfguru
Member since 2003
LB was in Homers second bunch of guys and works over East. Not sure
Skelley ever worked with Ben though. GW worked with my original TGM
mentor Chuck Evans a few years back.
Spike,
I love hitting too.. the best thing is I don’t have to practice at all to
keep the ball on the course, and there have been times since my
retirement where I went over a year without touching a club. One year
I went out with my father, having not played in over a year, and I shot
68 at Oak Creek CC in Sedona which is a decent test RT Jones track.
Now I am not saying this to toot my horn here, but to make a point…
there is absolutely no way I could have done that swinging with rusty
hinges!
Now getting back to the 5th accumulator, what you were saying about
Peter Senior and his finish.. that is it .. you nailed it.. it may not look
conventional, but the dynamics of him just ripping the shaft back up
the plane, from the lowest position to the highest did nothing but keep
the forces on the shaft well after impact making every humanly
possible effort the have the hands moving faster than the clubhead,
and in doing so seeking the impossible holy grail of holding the flex to
the ball, past or beyond.
Now whomever has been taking these High speed photos of shaft flex
and saying it is not possible, do we have any of Peter from the late
Show me that and I’ll be a believer..
But even if it is not possible to do as some have claimed, the concept
of it is what I believe we all should be striving to do.
The closer you get to it, the better you will hit it.. I really believe this…
assuming you are hitting of course…
iseekgolfguru

It would be cool to have the same sort of shots for Trevino, Palmer and
maybe there are some around of Kenny Perry. It is a line of thought
banned about with Tom W and I do not think he had any top class
hitters to take snaps of.
Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger to
hitter and why the choice?
Peter Senior and his finish.. Greg Norman…5th accumulator….
I am thinking Mr. Homer Kelly mentioned that even a well-
accomplished double barrel â€“ utilize two accumulators can play
great golf.
And as far as I remember (don’t have the book in hand), Power
accumulator is simply out-of line and in-line condition of power
package, it should also relate with pressure point.
When you mentioned about the 5th one, you said: so after Accumulator
#4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip cleared, the right arm is
extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent, what is left to keep
accelerating?
Do we have the 5th pressuer point? what is the 5th one that can be out-
of line and in-line afterward?
Are you talking about the spine? Hip thrust?
p.s. The 1989 Australia Open Champ was Peter Senior and the venue
was Kingston Heath GC not
Royal Melbourne GC
Cliffmanley
Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or
swinging,
Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting
area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through
impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of
the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally
free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff
wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me
how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to
be one of the first and most important elements of educated
handsâ€¦
No my arms don’t feel like noodles, but they do finish high, and hard,
usually they pull back in front of my face from almost behind my head.
I remember days when I have almost hit my self in the right ear with
my club.
My arms do stay in tight to my body but no I don’t fight wrist roll, not
usually anyway, there are times at the range when that happens but
only very rarely.
No my finish is usually very high, my back swing is fairly high as well,
and I do have a lot of shoulder turn, especially for a 48 year old, at
least that’s what my kids tell me…. ;-)
I have a firm grip, I have never used a glove so it essential for me to
have a firm grip, and my wrists are NEVER firm, they are always loose.
I am a feel player always have been.
Cliff Manley
KOC
lagpressure
Cliff,
Sounds like you are swinging… without seeing the motion or pics..
Does Guru have an opinion here?
KOC,
your are a hitter…
I’d love to see some back shots… to see how your right arm is
behaving on the way down..
Cliff sounds like a swinger.
KOCs photos there are of a hitter to my eye but its not KOC:)
Sumerhayes never met LB nor did LB actually meet BD until 2006.
muntz

They should put a sticky on this topic. lagpressure has started off a
fantastic exchange of ideas, and I also started searching for other
accumulator topics in the back catalogue.
Still interested in Guru’s Q:
Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger
to hitter and why the choice?
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you are
inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.
– BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
Lagpressure,
Great stuff. I really enjoyed the 5th accumulator. Trust a Chinaman
like KOC to spoil a good story.
What you describe I have been calling rhythm and teach it by saying
keep your shirt buttons up with the club. The opposite to quitting
which the golf swing is a “natural” for.
Thanks for expanding our worlds.
The hit/swing stuff is good. Most of us are doing these things and don’t
know it. It sounds obvious but if we know what we are doing life gets
easier.
I started with McHatton and Ben and was not happy till I found
Kykendal and Norman and saw Drive Loading (stiff wristed push).
Swinging is using a rope, hitting, like using a stick with stiff wrists, it
depends on what your girlfriend likes the best. Sometimes a clear
picture can help. You can do either hard or soft.
Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range
Toolish
down and out…did ya get that?
lagpressure
Finish swivel…
I don’t remember the specific component name of my finish swivel.
Haven’t pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and why.
I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after impact,
so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth parallel. Keeping
my upper arms packed hard against my body, I have spent #1, #2, and
#3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I use the ground, by
wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them together hard) firing the
left knee into a straight position, and keeping the left wrist partially
cocked still. I turn my torso as flat as I can so that the left shoulder is
moving away from the ball as far as possible. The hands are firm and
stiff. Once I am at the 4rth parallel.. I then fight the direction of the
true impact plane (elbow plane) and then use the rotator cuff muscles
in the shoulders to raise the upper arms off the body again pulling the
club and shaft off of it’s very flat plane and use the #3 pressure point,
but this time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull the hole
thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and shaft
moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand speed just
past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my attempt or futile
attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands beyond the ball. I
actually leaned this technique in a martial arts class. In other words, if
you are going to chop through a pile of bricks, you must concentrate on
moving your hand past and beyond the point of impact. So whether or
not I can hold the flex to the ball or not, it is truly my intent to do so
with every swing of the club, from driver to putter.
Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to it’s
maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond perpendicular.
My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are slightly bent but really I
try to finish with them as straight as possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try not to
cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be about 45
degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the momentum of
the club, will bring it down to below parallel, probably through the
ears looking from behind, but I an resisting all of this.
The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on my
pressure points right to the end… PRESSURE IS FEEL!
I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared to a
swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball control I
need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am playing a game
of strategy, rather than a game of “rip and find”
By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag, and
a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a swing
that didn’t need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots under pressure
when you need it most.. and when you are going up against the best in
the game, you better be able to repeat it… if you want to have any
chance…
To be honest, I wouldn’t be afraid to play anyone on an old style
course that requires precise shot making… at least for one round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using persimmon
and blades.. but that is another topic..!
live4golf

lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? – or maybe you have
said and I am too slow to pick it up???
Member since 2003
View Monitored Posts
“Parallels” Can you give us a “visual” as to what these refer too to
build a clearer picture.
In your finish swivel motion do you keep a Flat Left Wrist or allow it to
Bend? For hitters these are both options.
Pressure is indeed feel.
Awaress allows us to control the machine.

lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? â€“ or maybe you
have said and I am too slow to pick it up???
A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.
It is for Lagpressure to decide himself, but I believe we have the
pleasure of getting years of knowledge from a professional who won a
bit more than the Canadian Open. That may have been a little insight,
but If i’m on track, there were a further 7 PGA wins you can add to the
list.
As they would say in ‘Waynes World’ ” We are not worthy” but shit, a
real pleasure to have you on board and the learning curve will only
continue with your valued input.
I wish…..

4rthâ€œParallelsâ€•I guess lag is talking about the release point….
Matin Hall used to use 5 times parallels to describe the club parallel to
base plane line.

KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall reference:)
http://www.sunbowl.org/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=124
click that link… look for the guy who shot the same score TIger Woods
shot 10 years later when he took the title.
that would be me…
davego

Welcom John. Boy was I way off line, from your earlier post indicating
a Canadian Open win at -17, I had you pegged for Steve Jones. Never
mind, you’ll do:) LOL.
See from your bio you are write into The Golf Machine and your passion
for Persimmon. Luvin the info you are putting out and looking forward
to you joining the rest of the ‘Brains Trust’ in providing us mugs and
the better golfers that head to this forum, your thoughts, incite and
instruction.
I wish…..
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