10941 DR. C0HC0

the people, and I used to attend the sessions also of the Natal - - I was a member of the Region and also of the Natal Committee.

So you took a prominent part in the activities of the National Natal Action Council of the Congress of the People and its various Regional Committees, is that correct?— Yes, I did take a part there.

Now what were the activities of this co-ordinating body in Natal?— This body, my lords, was to organise for the Congress of the People, and popularise it amongst the people and explain the objects of the Congress of the People.

And how was that done, doctor?— By issuing leaflets, calling meetings and conferences to discuss the Congress of the People.

Did the Natal Regional Committee organise any study classes to prepare people to be members of the Con-gress of the People?— I believe they did.

What do you mean when you say you believe they did?— I'd like to explain what I mean; in the Natal Action Council,I was staying at Umzimkulu, about 120 miles from Durban - - now we appointed the A.N.C. mem-bers who were resident in Durban, in the Provincial Office, to represent the A.N.Congress in the National Action Council. Similarly, with the Midland Region too.

Yes; but what I want to know, doctor, is v/hat do you mean when you say you believe?— They did hold classes; it was in their organisational policy to edu-cate the members as to the objects of the Congress of the People; they did hold classes.

Don't say 'they did'; say »We did'?— We did, yes.

10942 DR. C0NC0

(WITNESS); Though I didn't attend any of the lectures that were given.

Do you know Mr. M.M. Mathale?— I know him very well.

Was he a member of this Natal Midland Regional Committee?— He was.

What was he?— I think he was the chairman of the Natal Midland Committee.

And what was his c apacity- in the African National Congress?— The Indian Congress.

Yes, in the Indian Congress?— He was the chair-man of the Pietermaritzburg Branch of the Natal Indian Congress.

P.H. Simalane, was he a member?— I know P.H. Simalane; he was a member of the Natal Action Council.

Of what organisation was he a member?— He was Treasurer of the African National Congress, Natal.

And Dr. A.H. Sadar? Was he a member of the Natal Action Council?— Yes, I think he was.

You know Dr. Sadar, don't you?— I know him very well, yes.

You know that he was a member?— Yes. Now, doctor, you yourself, you were the chair-

man at the first meeting of the Natal Conference of the Congress of the People; is that correct?— Yes.

You were the chairman?— I was the chairman. And do you still remember that first meeting

? — Well, I've got a recollection of it. Could I refresh your memory? That Conference

was opened by - - according to minutes I have here, or a letter I have here - - by Chief A.J.Luthuli, is that

10943 DR. C0HC0

correct? I'm referring to a document NIC.23?— I think the chief was banned at that time. Is it a message?

It was a message read?— Yes, correct. You were the chairman, is that correct?— Yes, I

was the chairman. And Dr. Naicker represented the Natal Indian

Congress?— He did represent the Natal Indian Congress but I'm not sure of his actual presence at the Conference. I think hewas banned too.

T„E. Tshunungwa represented the African National Congress, is that correct?— Yes.

And did a certain Mr. Hoogendyk (?) represent the Congress of Democrats?— Correct.

And did a certain Mr. N.T. Naicker submit an organisational report?— Did you say N.T. or N.P.?

M.P. Naicker?— Yes. What organisation was he a member of?— He was

a member of the Natal Indian Congress. And did Yengwa on that occasion make a call for

volunteers?— Yes, I remember him making a call for volun-teers, at that conference.

Dr.Conco, you also opened the second meeting of the Coastal Region of the Congress of the People on the 12th June, 1955, is that correct?— I don't seem to remember that very well.

I get that from a document which was handed in and marked NTN.7, which is a Press statement issued by the National Action Council of the Congress of the People. N.T. Naicker, did he represent the Congress of the People in any way?— Yes, he did; he was in the Congressof the People as well; he was the National

DR. CONCO 10944

Action - in the Natal Action Council. And was he authorised to issue sta foments on

behalf of the National Action Council of the Congress of the People?— Yes»

Now this is a Press statement in which he says that you opened the second meeting at the Coastal Region of the Congress of the People in Durban on Sunday, the 12th June, 1955. Do you remember that?— Yes, I remember that; I was chairman at that meeting and then I left afterwards. I think it was that meeting he was referring to.

Sothat, doctor, would it be correct to say that you, apart from your position in the African National Con-gress, were a very responsible officer - - you held a very responsible position in the activities of the Natal Action Council of the Congressof the People, and its Regional Committees; you played a prominent part in their activi-ties?— Yes, I dido

Now I want to come back to this question of the lectures that were given to people. Who appointed the people to give the lectures?

RUMPFF Jg To give the lectures - to deliver the lectures - to prepare the lectures - what do you

mean? MR. TREMGOVB? Well, to actually deliver the

lectures, Dr.Conco; who arranged that? If lectures were given to people to prepare them for the Congress of the People, who arranged the speakers of the lectures?— The Committee.

What committee?-— The National Action Committee or the Secretariat, of that committee.

f

10

15

20

25

30

— -

10945 DR. CONCO

And the person who delivered the lecture, what material did he have to use for his lecture?— I wouldn't know what material he would get to use. As I already said yesterday I didn't see the lectures, those you re-ferred to,

I'm not referring to those lectures at the moment, Dr.Conco, I'm referring to your Regional Committee which arranged lectures or study classes for the people; I want to know what the material was that was to be used as the

basis for these lectures, or was that left entirely to the discretion of the particular lecturer?— The Committee would determine tYe material to be used.

What committee was that then; for instance, the Natal Regional Committee, did they determine it?

RUMPFP J; The Natal Regional Committee? I thought there was a Natal Action Council, which had various Regional committees.

MR. TRENGOVffs I'm sorry, my lord; the Natal Midlands Regional Committee, would they for instance de-cide on the material to be used?— I believe so.

RUMPFF Js Were you chairman of a regional com-mittee?— I acted as chairman in the sessions of a region-al committee.

Were you chairman of a regional committee?—Yes. Which regional committee?— I'd just like to

explain, my lord, because it is a little bit confiE ing. There was a Midland Region, now my branch in Ixopo be-longed to the Midland Region of the Natal Action Council, of the Midland Region - - of the Natal Midland Region of the Congress of the People.

First of all there was the Natal Action Council

10946 DR. C0NC0

? — Yes. For the whole of Natal?— For the whole of Natal. Then in Natal there were a few regional commit-

tees?— Yes, my lord,, Serving under the Natal Action Council?— Yes. And in each regional committee were there various

branches again?— There were various branches in each regional committee.

Yes?— Now I represented the Ixopo branch and in the Natal Midland Region I was a member of that com-mittee, and I acted as chairman in some of the meetings, and owing to distances - because I'm about 70 miles away from Maritzburg and 100 miles from Durban, I did not at-tend every session of the Region, my own region, and also of the Natal Action Council. I just received reports of meetings.

MR. TRENGOVEs Now, Dr.Conco, did you carry out your duties as executive member of the African National Congress, as a member of the Natal Action Council of the Congress of the People - - did you carry out your duties conscientiously?— I tried to, to the best of my ability.

When you were not present at meetings did you endeavour to inform yourself as to what was being done and what was being decided upon in your absence?— Yes, they used to send me material; they would send me reports of their activities.

Now, I want to ask you, doctor, at no stage did you know what material had been decided upon as the basis for the lectures to be delivered; at no stage did you know what material?— I didn't.

And at no stage did you try and find out what

10947 DR. C0NC0

was being used as a basis for these lectures?— Well, I knew in general - - lectures on education, educating the people about the Congress of the People in general, but specifically I didn't know.

Now, DriConco, I have here a document marked MM.133, dated 17th April, 1955, and it's a circular letter, a roneoed circular letter headed "Congress of the People Midland Region", issued at Pietermaritzburg. It's a circular to all volunteers. "Dear Volunteer, The second phase of the campaign of the Congressof the People is about to begin. Whilst Freedom Volunteers have done ex-cellent work in the collection of demands etc., the need has now arisen for a period of serious political study; that is, to prepare freedom volunteers to get together and correctly analyse the day to day issues and the national issues that confront our people; to make our task of working amongst and politically educating the people of our country a successful one, we ourselves, the freedom volunteers must be politically conscious, so as to give the correct lead to the masses." Now, would that set out correctly the purpose for which the Natal Midlands Region of the Congress of the People was organising study classes for volunteers?— Yes.

Now then the circular goes on: "So the glorious task of being among the vanguard of the libe-ration movement of our country has fallen on us, there-fore let us in the great addition to freedom leaders the world over not be found wanting. The first lecture, "The World we live in" will be delivered by Dr. P.P.M. Latala at the Temple Hall on the 24th April, 1955." Now,

1^948 DR. CONCO

that, you say, never came to your notice, either directly

or indirectly?— As I have already said I wouldn't say it didn't come to my notice. I might have received that circular.

Dr. Conco, have you got a bad memory; do you know certain things at a particular stage and then later on completely forget them?— I'm not denying that I might have received that letter, that circular, because I used to receive a lot of material from the Congress of the People, even from the National Action Council. . .

not I'm/asking you now whether you received this;

did it ever come to your knowledge, that a lecture "The World we live in" was being used for this purpose, by the Natal Midland Region of the Congress of the People?— Oh, yes.

When did it come to your knowledge?— I believe I must have received a lot of information about lectures from my region, and also from the Natal Action Council about the lectures to be delivered to volunteers and mem-bers of Congress.

Doctor, would it be correct now, on refreshing your mmemory, to say it is quite possible that you knew that this lecture on "The world we live in" was being used for that purpose?— It is possible.

Doctor, did you ever know what the contents of this lecture that was being used were; what were the contents of that lecture?— I didn't know the contents because I didn't read the lecture.

Did you e ver try to find out what the contents of the lectures were?— No, I didn't.

Why not?— I think I have already explained that

10949 DR. CONGO

one receives so much material and one might have had a i general idea of giving lectures to educate people poli-tically, "but specifically that I r^ad the lectures, no, I wouldn't say I read the lectures I didn't read the lectures at all.

RUMPFF J; Were you a freedom volunteer?— I 5 "beg your pardon, my lord.

RUMPFF J: Were you a freedom volunteer?—Yes, I was.

MR. TRENGOVE; Dr.Conco, I'll come back to this lecture,. Just on the question of being a freedom 10 volunteer, let me just ask you something else. What was your position as a volunteer? Did you organise volunteers in Natal?— Yes.

Did you recruit volunteers?— In the conference where I was chairman for instance,, we called for volun- 15

teers.

Yes, but what were you*? A private in the volun-teers, or what rank did you hold?— I was a volunteer in my area.

In your area?—- Yes. 20 And did you know of the existence of a Nation-

al Volunteer Board?— During the Defiance Campaign I knew of such a board.

And after that?— At this time the freedom volunteers which were called, in 1954 - I cannot Bmsmber 25

very well now; I don't think we had the same National Volunteer Board as we had during the Defiance Campaign. These were just freedom volunteers to organise the Con-gress of the People.

Dr.Conco, this question of organising the z0

10950 DR. CONCO

Freedom Volunteers, was that confined to the African x

National Congress or did the African National Congress co-operate with a number of other organisations in orga-nising the freedom volunteers?— The other organisations too, had volunteers.

Was it all a co-ordinated campaign, the A„N.C. 5

with the other organisations to organise volunteers?— Yes.

Andwhat were those other organisations?— I remember with respect to Natal, the Natal Indian Congress, and the A.N.C. and then there was the Congress of Demo- 10 crats, and we also got, when we called for volunteers, even members of the Liberal Party who joined as volun-teers . .

Dr.Conco, were you at 9 meeting at Fraser Sta-tion on the 15th August, 1954?— I didn't hear that well? ^

Did you attend a meeting in a school at Fraser Station on the 15th August, 1954?— Yes, I remember the meeting at Fraser School I'm not too sure of the date.

You were there9— I was there. And what was the object of that meeting,, Dr 2o

Conco?— If I remember very well it was the meeting of the Joint Executive of the sponsoring organisations for the Congress of the People.

And the Joint Executives of what organisa-tion?— The African National Congress, the S.A. Indian Congress, the Congress of Democrats and the S.A.Coloured Peoples Organisation.

Is it correct that the following people were also there: J. Slovo?— Yes.

Do you know him?— I know Joe Slovo.

10951 DR. C0HC0

Was he an accused at the Preparatory Examination 1 ? — He was.

R. Resha?— Yes. The accused in this case?— He is an accused in

this case. Luthuli?— Chief Luthuli was there. Beyleveld?— Yes. He as an accused at the Preparatory Examina-

tion?— Yes. G.M. Naicker?— Dr. Naicker, yes. E.P. Moretsele?— Yes. 1 P.Q. Vundla?— I don't know if I can remember

the lot; it was a big meeting - there were quite a lot of people there.

You can't remember him?— I don't know if he was there; I can't remember. 1

Alright. A.E. Patel?— Yes, he was there. Philemon Mathole?— I can't place him now. He's an accused?-_ Yes. Do you know whether he was there?— I can't

remember. 2 M.E. Yengwa?— Yes. And Tshunungwa?— Yes. Now, is that Tshnungwa, the accused?-- The

accused, yes. Now, at that meeting, on that occasion, the 2

police removed certain documents. One was G.477 which is the National Action Council for the Congress of the People, Draft Plan of Campaign . Do you know whether that draft plan was a matter to be discussed there?— Could I have a copy please? ,

10952 DR. C0HC0

MR. TRENGOVE: You may. Now there were many l of those roneoed reports there; do you remember that document?— In the first place this document is undated.

I just want to know if you can remember whether that document was to be used as a basis for any discus-sion there that day?— On the day of the conference? 5

I don't know whether it was a conference; it was a meeting on the 15th August. Have you ever seen a document similar to that before9— Yes, I've seen it.

Now do you know whether it was removed from that building on that day°— I wouldn't deny that, 10

Then there is another one that I want to hand you, G.478, report from the National Volunteer Board; that was also taken there that day; have you seen that document before, or a similar one?— Yes, I've seen this one too. ^

Could that have been used as a basis for dis-cussion there that day?— Yes, it could have been.

RUMPFF J; Was it? — As I say it could have been used, but I cannot remember the Agenda very well.

MR. TRENGOVE; You can't remember what hap- 2Q

pened?— No, I can't offhand remember the Agenda, but I've seen these two documents.

Could I just have them back please. Now this was in 1954, and this report G.478, of the National Volunteer Board, refers to the call by Chief ^ Luthuli for volunteers, for 50,000 volunteers, so this doesn't refer to the Defiance Campaign volunteers; is that correct?— No it does not refer to the Defiance Campaign volunteers.

Now, was there a National Volunteer Board

1095*5 DR. C0NC0

established in connection with the call that Chief 1

Luthuli made for 50,000 volunteers?— Well, as stated

in that document the idea of a National Volunteer Board

was there, whereas in practice really, whether one was functioning, that I don't remember.

5 You don't know whether there was a Volunteer

Board?— In practice, no. The idea of a National Volunteer Board might have been discussed - for the 50,000 volunteers for the Congress of the People.

Did you have a volunteer in chief for the J 10 Union?— The volunteer in chief was Chief Luthuli.

Did you have volunteers in chief in the Provinces?— As I say , . .

Provincial volunteers-in-chief?— Yes, the idea was there, as is mentioned in that document, to

15 have volunteers in chief in different provinces, and I think some provinces might have had them, or had them, and some provinces might not have followed the scheme properly. Well, now I can recall - - for instance, in Natal we had a volunteer in chief . . 20

RUMPFF J: Please don't think?— No, I recall now my lord, that in Natal the man who called for volunteers was to be volunteer in chief.

MR. TRENGOVE: Who was he?— Yengwa. Now, do you know whether the Transvaal had 25

a volunteer in chief?— I think it had. I really can't recall the volunteer in chief's name, but I think the Transvaal had one, the Cape had one . . .

Dr. Conco. don't you know. — The Transvaal - I think it was Resha who was volunteer in 30

10954 DR. CONCO

chief. Now why, when you come to Resha do you always

seem to hesitate?— No, I didn't hesitate, my lords. You didn't hesitate?— No. It's so old that

sometimes it becomes very difficult to remember all these office bearers .

RUMPFP J: How many volunteers in chief did Natal have?— One.

How many did the Transvaal have?— One„ And who was he, in the Transvaal?— Robert Resha. All the time?— All the time, yes And was Yengwa chief all the time in Natal?—Yes, MR. TRENGOVE: Do you know if any other province

had a volunteer in chief?— I believe the Cape had one.. But I couldn't recall his name.

Do you know a man by the name of Mfacso?— I know him, yes. he was an accused at the Preparatory Exa-mination.

You don't know whether he was a volunteer in chief in the Cape°-_ No, I didn't know that.

Nov/, apart from these volunteers in chief, were there any other people that were connected with the organisation of volunteers in the various Provinces; with whom did the volunteer in chief work? Who was his Lieutenant, assisting him in his v/ork? Were such people appointed?— Well, the volunteers I believe would work with a committee - that would be the Congress of the People because these are Congress of the People volun-teers .

With whom did Yengwa work in Natal?— The per-sonalities I just cannot remember offhand.

10955 DR. C0HC0

Did he work with you, Dr. Conco?— Yes because ^

I was active in the Natal Action Council of the Congress

of the People.

And apart from yourself, you don't know anybody else that Yengwa actively worked for as volunteer in chief to recruit volunteers?— With the members of the 5 National Action Council; I think Melane and N.T. Naicker who was in the National Action Council . . rather in the Natal Action Council . .

This circular describes the procedure for en-rolment. It says "The volunteers must sign an applica- 10 tion form, annexure A", and that is an application form "The volunteer applies to the Volunteer Board of the National Action Council to enroll as a freedom volunteer". Nov/, in Natal, did volunteers apply to be enrolled?-- Yes, they did. 15

And to whom was that application directed?— I remember two instances - - sometimes volunteers applied in a conference, and the application is directed to . . . I can't remember the form very well.

Would it be directed to the National Action 20

Council9— Yes, to the Action Council in that province. Then this report says : "That volunteers must

take a pledge at a special meeting, Annexure B". Is it correct, did you know that this circular prescribes that volunteers must take a pledge at a special meeting?-- 25

Yes - - could I just see it, my lords? The bottom of page 1, doctor?— Yes, accord-

ing to this document volunteers must take a pledge at a special meeting.

Yes. Now if they did take a special pledge

10956 C 0 H C 0

at a special meeting that would be the correct procedure, i wouldn't it, according to this document?— According to that document, yes

Now, do you know Dr Conco, that at meetings the volunteers took a special pledge?

RUMP FIT J; Is it now a special pledge at a 5 meeting, or a pledge at a special meeting?

MR. TRENGOVE: A pledge at a special meeting, my lord. Do you know that meetings were held specially for volunteers to take the pledge?— You mean special meetings . . . 10

Meetings were held for the particular purpose so that volunteers could take this pledge?— No, I don't know of any.

You don't know?-- I don't know of any meetings. I don't know of any special meetings for volunteers to ^ take a pledge.

Then this circular says : "In addition to the pledge at the special meeting they must also take the pledge at a public meeting"?— At a public meeting we usually read the pledge to the volunteers. 2Q

Now. „.?— We read it publicly, to the volun-teers and they would sign a firm.

Now, do you know why the National Volunteer Board in its report describes this procedure of taking a pledge on two different occasions, or don't you know?— 25 No, I don't know.. Well, the document envisages that but I've never seen it . .

RUMPFF J; Who drew up that document?— The National Volunteer Board, my lord.

The National Volunteer Board?-_ Yes. 30

10957 DR. C0NC0

MR. TRENGOVE: And is it correct, Dr.Conco, that ^̂ the National Volunteer Board consisted of representatives of the various congresses?— Yes.

The National Volunteer Board was part of the National Action Council of the Congress of the People, was it not? Confining its particular duties to volunteers, is ^ that right?— May I get the question again?

The National Action Council of the Congress of the People - you know that body?— Yes

Now, as part of that body you had the National Volunteer Board, is that correct?— Yes. 1Q

And what the National Action Council did and what the National Volunteer Board did carried the sanction of the African National Congress?— I don't follow the question. The sanction of the African National Congress.

What the National Action Council of the Congress 15 of the People did, and what the National Volunteer Board did in connection with volunteers, that carried with it the sanction of the African National Congress?— Yes.

Yes. Now could I just have that please. RUMPFF J; Who were the members of the Nation-

20

al Volunteer Corp in 1954?— I couldn't really recall them.

Not one?— As I said I can't recall them - -well, Chief Luthuli was the leader, and the volunteers in chief like Yengwa and Resha - - whether it is a

25 Board which really met I'm not too well informed, my lord; I can recall those three names.

MR. TRENGOVE: Is it correct, Dr Conco, that the National Volunteer Board really had its head-

Where quarters in Johannesburg?—/The headquarters of the 30

10958 DR. CONCO

organisation are. Yes. Now, Dr Conco according to this report

volunteers were placed under a Unit leader, is that cor-rect9— May I see the document please, if you have a copy.

RUMPFF J; Can't you remember? Whether the volunteers in Natal were organised in units?— They were organised in units of branches.

MR. TRENGOVE; This document also says, "That the units would consist of 9 volunteers with a leader making a unit of 10, or 19 volunteers with a leader making a unit of 20". Do you know whether that was done in Natal?— As I've said the document might stipulate that but whether in practice that was done - -in practice units went according to branches - a branch had a unit of volunteers; there might be 2 0, there might be 15; another branch might have 20 - or 40 - and then it may decide to distribute them and have a leader for each group. . . about the number I'm really not too sure.

Was each unit under a Unit Leader?-- Yes, in a branch for instance you'd have a leader of the branch unit of volunteers.

And did that leader have any special insignia, apart from the ordinary uniform that the ordinary volun-teers wore?— I don't remember any special insignia.

Yau don't remember?— No. Now Dr.Conco they used to wear arm bands,

badges, is that correct?— You mean the volunteers9

Yes°— Yes They wore uniforms?— Yes, there was a uni-

form. a khaki uniform, And arm bands and badges, is that correct?—Yes.

10959 PR„ C0NC0

And they were subject to a code of discipline 1 ? — Yes, correct, they were subject to a code of disci-pline

It's been read out here in Court quite often; you heard what this code of discipline is; did you know that?— Yes, I knew that. Volunteers had to be disci- 5 plined.

And they also had to carry out the orders of their leaders?-— If I remember well they had to carry out the orders of their leaders.

That is so?— That is so. 10 What were the tasks of the volunteers?— The

tasks of the volunteers were to organise - - first of all let me take the National African Congress volunteer. He had to organise and recruit new members into the African National Congress, and then popularise the idea 15 of the Congress of the People, and take active steps to organise people to bring in their demands which would be included in the Freedom Charter.

Anything else?— Well, if there were other issues affecting people locally, the volunteers would 20 have to attend to them and explain to the people the source of the grievances that arose in that local area.

You see this says - would this be corrects "That the first task is to undertake regular, active, intensive work in mobilising resistance to the apart- 25 heid policy of the Nationalist Government. Volunteers must campaign against the Bantu Education and Group Areas Act and Native Re-Settlement Act and Western Areas removal scheme, as well as all local grievances of people such as housing passes, transport etc." Is

10960 DR. C0NC0

that correct9-- That's correct. 1 Now Dr.Conco, this document also refers to study-

classes to be given and lectures which are being prepared which would be available after this document had been drawn up. Now that you also knew9— Yes I knew about the idea of conducting study classes.

Were you a Unit Leader9— In my branch,yes. In your branch you were a unit leader?—Yes. Did you carry out your duties conscientiously

? — I tried to carry them out conscientiously. What did you do about ensuring that your volun- 10

teers received the proper ideological training, that they were properly indoctrinated by means of lectures; what did you do about that?— I just explained to them the position in South Africa and what we were trying to do by holding the Congress of the People; I didn't make ^ use of any lectures in my unit.

Why did you not Dr.. Conco?T- Well, I had the general idea of the whole situation, what we were aim-ing at. I didn't use the lectures; I didn't get lecturers to lecture to my volunteers

RUMPFP J; You say you didn't get lectures9— It's possible that I did get the lectures, but I didn't use the lectures for my volunteers

MR. TRENGOVE: If you got the lectures why didn't you use them, Dr. Conco9— It was not compul-sory on me to use the lectures; I had the general idea of organisation of the Congress of the People; I could analyse the situation in South Africa to the people, and explain to them the objects of the Congress of the People without lectures. 30

20

25

10961 DR. C0NC0.

Dr. Conco, do you recognise this document, WC„2?_- Yes, I recognise it

Did you receive that?— Yes I think I received it .

May I just have it. Now this is a bulletin called "Forward to the Congress of the People. Special Issue May 1955". Now, who issed this Call Bulletin?— I think it was issued by the Natal Action Council, that particular one.

You say this particular one was issued by the Natal Action Council?— Yes.

Of the Congress of the People?- Yes Now, at page 7 of this document you have the

following; "The country we live in, the second of a series of lecture notes C.O.P. Congress Branch Trade Union Classes, the first of this series was produced in our last issue. It was entitled 'The world we live in'". The contents of this bulletin, did they ever come to your notice?— I might have received the bulletin and might not h?ve read all in it.

Let's not work with 'mights', doctor. You say you did receive this bulletin?— I don't deny that I re-ceived it.

You don't deny it?— No, I don't deny it. Now, do you remember ever paying any atten-

tion to this bulletin; It's a bulletin - organisation, you were a volunteer, you were on the Natal Action Council of the Congress of the People - - did you at any stage endeavour to find out what was contained in this bulletin?— Yes; some of the bulletins had quite a lot of material - - I might have had a look at it - -

10962 DR. CONCO

but I don't remember really studying the whole of that l bulletin.

You never saw - - can you say now that you never saw that this bulletin contained the second lecture "The country we live in"?— No, I don't recall it.

You don't recall it?-_ No. 5 You don't know anything about it?— About the

bulletin? Can't you remember; is it possible that you

might have seen it - can't you remember, or....,9— I might have seen it, I'm not denying the possibility that I might have seen it; I might have received it, but I don't remember really going through it.

Now, Dr.Conco, if you had seen it, would you have been interested in reading it?— In reading it?

In trying to find out what it contained; would ^ you have been interested in knowing that 9— Yes; some-times it was a question of time; I was interested to read quite a lot of material.

Now, Dr Conco, what material issued by the National Action Council of the Congress of the People or any other branch of it - what material issued by that Body did you at any stage read to inform yourself as to what the training for volunteers should be?— We received these bulletins; I might have received the bulletins - I might have read one, and possibly this one with the lectures I might have missed - - it might have been lying in my desk unread or unopened, but I did receive letters about the organisation of the Congress of the People; • I can't recall.

You never really read anything about it?— 30

20

25

10963 DR. C0NC0

I knew about them. 1

But you never read them?-_ I read some. . . . Which did you read, and what was contained in it

? — It's so difficult to remember all that. Well, I'll ask you if we have to go through them.

Here's a document WC.3; it's a roneoed document F.N.Mungo 5 and M.M, Mdiba; do you know those two people?— Mbida was in the Pietermaritzburg Regional Congress of the People.

This is a circular, his name is at the bottom; it was addressed - - it was found in your possession and 10 addressed to Mr. Xuma, P.O.Box 23, Umzimkulu. Is that your box number?— My Box number is 13.

Do you know how this came to be in your posses-sion?— May I just have a look at it?

Yes?— I think it was a mistake on the part of 15

the Post Office. The box address there is 23, my box is 13, so it might have come into my box.

This was issued by the organisation in Natal; the Natal Midlands Regional Committee and it also re-fers to the second part of the lecture 'The world we 20 live in1 which will be delivered. You didn't know that either?— I might have known about it, about this letter I really don't know . . .

RUMPFF J; Did you say that that document was issued by the Natal Midlands Regional Committee? 25

MR. TRENGOVE: The Natal Midlands Regional Committee.

RUMPFF J: Of the Congress of the People? MR. TRENGOVE: Yes, my lord. RUMPFF J: Were you on that committee?— Yes.

i

10964 DR. C0N00

MR. TRENGOVE; It refers to a lecture class to be held on the 29th May, just before the Congress of the People. Then, Br.Conco, ? — Could I just give this explanation, my lord? I was in that committee, as I have already explained, but I didn't attend all the sessions of the committee

Now, the next document also found in your pos-session was WC.4. Do you remember receiving that?

RUMPEF J; Well, what is it, Mr. Trengove ? MR. TRENGOVE; Natal Midlands Regional Congress

of the People Newsletter, my lord; Regional Committee?— It's the official organ of the Midland Regional Committee of the Congress of the People, News.

Do you remember reading that?— Yes, I would have received it.

Now this was the official organ - the C.O.P. News is the official organ of the Midlands Regional Committee of the Congress of the People. Vol.1, No.l. Is that correct?— Yes, it's written there. . .

Were you party to the decision that this news-letter should be issued, that the C.O.P. News be the official organ?— Yes,

Were you interested in the first number, the first newsletter?— Well, I was interested to see the - - I was interested in the idea of a newsletter being made for our region.

And when your idea became reality were you in-terested in that?— I don't follow the question.

When your idea was put into practice and the first newsletter was published, were you interested in the Newsletter?— I would be interested. I was interested.

10965 DR. C0HC0

Who decided what information should go into 1 this newsletter?— It's a committee.

Now, you were party to the decision to publish this newsletter?— Yes, I was party.

Were you also party to the decision as to what should go into this newsletter?— Well, as I have already 5

said, I was party, as a member of the committee, in the newsletter to educate people as to the Congress of the People - this was to include material foreducational purposes, with respect to the Congress of the People,

Were you party to the information contained in 10 this newsletter? Who decided what should be put into this first newsletter?— The committee. I mean I'm part of the committee, but I don't follow the question very well.

Dr.Conco, it's a simple question. You were 2.5 on the committee when the decision was taken to publish this newsletter?— Yes, I was on the committee and we decided there must be a newsletter for our region.

Now, were you also on the committee when the contents of this newsletter, this proposed news- 20 letter, was discussed?— I might have been but I might not have been.

Well, let'3 assume that you were not; when the first newsletter came out and was sent to you, were you interested to see what it contained9— I was in- 25 terested.

Did you read it?— It's possible I read it Now, you see column 2, page 2 of this news-

letter, refers to the first study class which was ac-tually held on the 24th April, 1955, where Dr.Matala ,n

10966 DR. CONCO

delivered the first lecture, "The world we live in". It 1

is essential for each anc every volunteer to attend these lectures where they will be trained to understand and analyse correctly the local and national situations." Dr.Conco, you must have known of these lectures "The world we live in", "The country we live in", and ^ "Change is needed"?— Yes I don't deny that I knew that the lectures were being given, but the difficulty is that some of the lectures I might not have seen. It was a question of seeing them. There was the idea of giving lectures, holding classes to educate the ^ people, Congress members and the volunteers. I don't deny that.

And these lectures, you heard the evidence the other day, were even sent by the African National Congress to people who were interested to attend the ^ Congress of the People?— Yes.

Not only werethe National Action Council of the Congress of the People responsible for the publishing of these lectures but the African National Congress too sent these lectures to people in order to educate them in the assessment of the political situation in 20

the country?— Yes, it's possible. I don't deny that. Now, you say Dr Ccnco, that the first time

that you became aware of the contents of these lectures was at the Preparatory Examination?— Yes.

Did you then enquire as to who the author of 25 these lectures was?— The author?

Yes; who wrote the lecture? The three lec-tures "The country we live in " The country we live in and "A change is needed"; who wrote them? Did you try and find out?— I think the lectures were issued by 30

^ _ .

V -

10967 DR. 00NC0

the National Action Council; that was the information 1 I had.

RUMPFF J: But you were on the National Action Council, or were you not?— Yes, I think yesterday I ex-plained that I attended some of the sessions of the National Action Council; I was more in the Natal Action 5 Council - that's where I did most of the work - - and the lectures came from headquarters, when I enquired.

MR. TRENGOVE: Dr.Conco, I'm not interested in the Body now that published this thing; did you enquire - you knew about these lectures before the time - you 10 knew "The country we live in", "The world we live in", and "A change is needed" were being used to educate volun-teers; that you knew long before the Preparatory Examina-tion; is that correct?— No; I never saw the lectures.

I don't ask whether you saw them9-- I knew 15 of the idea of giving lectures to volunteers

Dr.Conco, did you or did you not know that three lectures namely "The world we live in", "The country we live in" and "A change is needed", that they would be used as the basis of lectures to volunteers - three 20 lectures by those names?— I don't deny that; I could have seen it in bulletins - I could have seen it in a bulletin that you have read to me. I knew there were lectures given. .

Did you at any stage enquire who wrote those 25 lectures?— The actual author, the person who wrote the lectures? No, I didn't enquire.

Subsequently, when you saw the contents, did you then enquire?— I have already indicated that I en-quired and I got the information that they were issued by

10968 DR. C0NC0

the National Action Council of the Congress of the People. 1 Did you enquire what person wrote them9— No, I

didn't enquire about the person who really wrote the lec-tures .

Nov;, Dr.Conco, having read these three lectures, do you agree with what is set out in the lectures? 5

RUMPFF J; He has just now said that he hasn't read them; he may have looked at them, but he hasn't read them.

MR. TRENGOVE; You heard them at the Prepara-tory Examination, is that correct? When they were read 10 out?— Yes, they were read out at the Preparatory Examina-tion.

And they were read here too?— They were read here too. There's been so much evidence and reading in this case that one can't remember it all.

Now, Dr.Conco, I don't want you to commit your-self unnecessarily, but would you at this stage be able to say whether you agree with what is contained in these

f lectures, or whether you don't agree9— I wonder if it would be possible just to summarise them one by one. 20

RUMPFF J; No; you can look at them in your time?— Yes, my lord.

MR. TRENGOVE. I'll make them available if you want an opportunity to go into them, but you would not like to express an opinion at this stage?— I'd first like to have a look at them.

Would you then read those lectures and then I'll ask you for your opinion. Dr.Conco, who was the first freedom volunteer in the Defiance Campaign?— The first? I can't remember that.

10969 DR. C0NC0

Who was the first volunteer in the Defiance Campaign?— I can't remember very well, hut I think the first volunteers were in the Transvaal I can't remember the sequence of events properly, but I think the first volunteers were in the Transvaal. I'm really not too certain.

You were a volunteer in the Defiance Campaign yourself?— I was a volunteer in the Defiance Campaign.

Wasn't it a fact which was much publicised, that Dadoo, Patani, Marks, were the first volunteers of the African National Congress in the Defiance Campaign?— I think I saw that, though I really can't remember the names of the first batch I really wouldn't be able to recall - but those names you mentioned were I think in the first batch.

Now, Dr,Conco, I referred you this morning to this report contained in the African National Congress National Executive Committee report to the Bloemfontein Conference 1955, and in this report which was settled by the Executive Committee before submission to the Con-ference, at page 16 it says: Referring to matters in this country it says: "These difficulties point un-mistakably to the urgent need for a Congress bulletin and newspaper to reinforce and widen the field at pre-sent covered by such newspapers and bulletins as New Age, Fighting Talk and Liberation." Is that correct?— I didn't follow . . .

The passage which reads as follows, after dealing with the literaure - - I might read the whole thing to you?— Please.

"In the absence of adequate literature and

10970 DR. CONCO

propaganda material through which the people could he made to develop the proper approach to the struggle against Bantu Education,, it has not been easy to . and destroy pro-Bantu education propaganda dessiminated from Pretoria, and broadcast through the aegis of paid employees of the Native Affairs Department. These dif-ficulties point out unmistakably to the urgent need for a Congress bulletin or newspaper to reinforce and widen the field at present covered by such newspapers and bulletins as New Age, Fighting Talk and liberation". Is that correct?— Yes, it's correct. I think it refers to a Congress Bulletin - the need for such a bulletin to widen publicity in addition to the ones in existence.

Now, how did you come to sell New Age in Natal; who asked you to do that?— I just did it personally. I just decided to sell it to a few people who were in-terested .

Yes, but did you get in touch with New Age offices - their offices in Durban or in Capetown?— The office in Durban.

And did they then arrange with you to sell the New Age?— Well, in the country I just sent in a list ofsubscribers and they s end the New Age to them. All those who had approached ne and who subscribed to New Age.

Now, doctor, would it be correct to say that in the National Liberation Movement there was the closest co-operation between the African National Congress, the S.A. Indian Congress, the Congress of Democrats and the S.A. Coloured Peoples Organisation?— Are you calling these organisations the National Liberation Movement - -

I say that in promoting the aims and objects

10971 DR. C0HC0

of the National Liberation Movement in South Africam 1 these four Congress organisations worked in the closest co-operation, is that correct?— These four Congresses worked in very close co-operation. I would say they formed the National Liberation Movement in South Africa.

They formed the National Liberation Movement in 5 South Africa9— We usuall refer to these four organisa-tions as the National Liberation Movement.

And was there any difference of opinion between these organisations, as to how the aims and objects of the National Liberation Movement should he achieved?— 10

Well, the objects of the ihdividual organisations which formed the National Liberation Movement were similar, firstly to abolish racial discrimination in South Africa, and to fight for equality, and to struggle for a multi-racial society in South Africa. Those are the objects 15 of these organisations, and that was the basis of their co-operation.

Now, was the re any difference of opinion be-tween these various organisations, that you know of, as to how their objects were to be achieved?— No, I 20 don't know of any difference

You don't know of any difference?— No. Did the African National Congress, to your

knowledge, have the full support of the S,A. Indian Congress and its various subsidiary movements, like 25 the Natal Indian Congress - in whatever the National African Congress did?— The African National Congress had full support from the Natal Indian Congress, the S.A.Indian Congress, and the other organisations.

And in the same way I take it the African

10972 DR. C0NC0

National Congress also had the full support of the Congress ± of Democrats and the Coloured Peoples Organisation?— Yes, with respect to these three objectives I have already-stated we were all agreed. With respect to the objectives we wanted to fight for in South Africa.

The objectives and the means to obtain those ^ objectives?— Yes, the objectives and the means - the means being non-violent resistance - - non-violent methods.

Apart from what you described these means to be the actual means employed, was there any difference of opinion at any stage as to the means actually employed 10 to promote the aims of the National Liberation Movement ? — No, I don't remember any differences . .

No differences?— No.. . I don't quite follow... You had a certain object with the Liberation

Movement; leave aside for the moment what the object was?— Yes.

And that object you endeavoured to achieve by employing certain means?— Yes

Leave aside those means at the moment. But as regards these means to be employed to achieve the 2o object, there was no difference of opinion, to your knowledge between the African National Congress and any of the other Congress movements?— No, not to my knowledge; there was no difference.

25 (COURT ADJOURNED FOR 15 MINUTES).

10973 DR. CONCO

ON THE COURT RESUMING; 1 MR. TRENGOVE; Dr. Conco, I was asking you a

few general questions on the Go-operation between the four organisations which you say constituted the Libe-ration Movement in South Africa. New you said, I under-stood, that they all had the same object; is that cor- 5 rect?— Yes, that's correct.

And the means to achieve that object were the same in the case of each of these Congress movements?— Yes, correct.

Now, Dr.Conco, I wantto revert to one other i0 matter before I go on there. Do you know Mandela's pamphlet "No Easy Walk to Freedom"?— No, I don't know it.

You have never read it?— No. Do you know that it had the official sanction 3.5

of the African National Congress?— Just repeat the question please.

Did you know that the African National Con-gress approved of that publication?— I don't know the publication itself. It would be better probably if I 2Q

saw it As a member of the National Executive, Dr..

Conco, of the African National Congress you wouldn't know whether or not the African National Congress ap-proved of that publication, "No Easy Walk to Freedom" 25 ? — My lords, I don't know a publication of that name. I'm not sure, I've never seen it. .

Do you know a publication "South Africa's Way Forward" by Moses Kotane?— I've heard about it. I've seen the pamphlet too. 30

Do you know that the African National Con-

10974 DR. CONCO

gress also approved of that publication?— I don't know 1

about the approval of the African National Congress. I don't know about that.

Dr. Conco, you don't seem to be very well versed in the propaganda material that the African National Con-gress used to educate the people and to raise their poli- 5 tical consciousness, because these two booklets were fairly extensively used by the African National Congress for this purpose?— As I said, I didn't refuse them -"South Africa's way "f oward to Freedom" I've seen that one, but the other one I've never seen. 10

Now, Dr.Conco, another way in which the African National Congress - another method which they employed for their propaganda purposes was the holding of meet-ings; is that correct? Meetings and conferences?— Yes, meetings and conferences were held - not solely for 15 propaganda purposes, my lords; for organisation too.

Yes....?-- For explaining :ts policy to the peo-ple

In the absence of a National Press the holding of meetings was regarded by the African National Congress 20 as a very important way of making their views known to the people, is that right?-- Yes. correct.

And these meetings were held throughout the country during the period 1954, 1955, 1956 - meetings were regularly held in Natal, Transvaal, Eastern Cape, 25

Western Cape under the flag of the African National Congress?— Yes, many meetings were held by the African National Congress.

And apart from organisational purposes, the object of those meetings was to make known the views

10975 DR. CONCO

of the African National Congress; is that correct? — 1

Correct. And speakers were called upon to speak at those

meetings on behalf of the African National Congress?—Yes, that's correct.

Now I take it that if anybody expressed views 5

at these meetings - any of the A N.C. speakers, if they expressed views in conflict with African National Congress policy, disciplinary action would be taken against them?— Yes, if anybody expressed views which were not the African National Congress views - outside the policy of the 10 organisation and it came to the knowledge of the organisa-tion, then action would be taken against those people.

Yes; and you have a code of discipline which is applied very strictly, isn't that so?— Well, our Con-stitution has got a section on discipline, I don't know 15 if I'd call it a code.

Do you remember attending a meeting of the National Executive, the A,N.C. on the 21st May, 1955, Exhibit A.64, at which a certain Yundla was expelled? Do you remember that meeting?— Yes, I remember that 20

meeting, my lords. Now, if you turn to the paragraph dealing

with Deputation; have you got that? There is a sub-heading 'Deputation'?— Oh yes, I've got it.

Now, under 'Deputation', you have the follow- 25 ing passage: "At a meeting on the 20th April 1955 Mr. Vundla was reported to have called upon children who would be expelled from school as a result of the boy-cott to come to him and he would get them back to school. He is reported to have repeated this statement at a 30

10976 DR. C0NC0

meeting on the 27th April. It is reported that Mr.Vundla 1 had led a Deputation to Pretoria together with other per-sons to request the Authorities to re-admit the children who had been expelled. Mr.Vundla stated that the Depu-tation had arisen as a result of parents requesting him to try to get their children back to school. He had 5

uhdertaken the Deputation in his individual capacity and had made it abundtantly clear that he was not acting as an official of Congress. 'I am doing this, and I am accepting the responsibility'- Mr.Vundla said. Mr. Vundla's action was deplored by the meeting. The Depu- 10 tation was embarrassing to Congress and he further added complications to an already complicated situation. There was no question of his having acted in his individual capacity. To the rank and file Mr. Vundla was first and foremost a Leader of Congress, and his action carries ^ an official sanction". Then it refers to a report in The Bantu World and then it says: "It was felt that his actions were indefensible and a Commission of En-quiry would investigate this matter. The Transvaal took a serious view of Mr. Vundla's assault - - somebody 2o assaulted him - - "This act opened the way for police violence and excesses." Now, Dr. Conco, you acted against Mr. Vundla there because he acted in conflict with A.N.C. policy, is that correct?— The action was taken by the Transvaal Province . . .

But it came before the National Executive?— It came before the National Executive as an appeal.

As an appeal?— Yes. What did the National Executive do with the

appeal?— If I remember well it confirmed the .action 30

10977 DR C0NC0

of the Transvaal Provincial Executive. In expelling him?— Yes. Now, on the National Executive at that stage

there were Chief Luthuli, Prof. Matthews, Dr.Le-tele, Dr. Conco, E.P. Moretsele, P.J. Simalane, L. Masina, T.E Tchnungwa, R.M^Resha and A.S Hutchinson; is that 5 correct?— Yes.

So that can one accept it that if members act in conflict with Congress policy and that comes to the notice of members of the Executive, then stern steps are taken to expel a member?— Yes, correct. 1°

Now just while we are dealing with Congress policy, doctor, I just want to ask you something else. What is the working committee of the African National Congress?— The working committee of the African Na-tional Congress is a sub-committee of the National 15 Executive.

A sub-committee of the National Executive?—Yes. And the purpose of this sub-committee?— The

purpose of the sub-committee is to attend to adminis-trative every day issues of the organisation. 20

Now I have here a document found in the posses-sion of T.E.Tchunungwa, TEC,48 - a report of the working committee of the African National Congress, and under the heading of 'Other activities' one has, inter alia, the following passage: "The working committee decided 25 to appoint a committee to write a booklet on Congress policy as regards: Mr. Sisuli Resha and members of this committee with powers to co-opt. The work is already begun . . . ." Then it deals with the printing of this pamphlet. Do you remember that Resha and Sisuli were 50

10978 HR. CONCO

appointed by the Working Committee to write a book on 1 Congress Policy - a pamphlet?— That is possible.

It's possible9— Yes. Do you think that they were sufficiently well

versed in Congress policy to be able to serve on a com-mittee to write a booklet of that nature?— Yes, they 5 were the working committtee appointed.

Men like Resha and Sisulu, they would know exact-ly what Congress policy was?— Yes.

Now, would this now refer to the accused Sisulu and Resha in this case? This appointment?— I io just don't follow the question.

The SiSulu and Resha mentioned in the report, on the working committee, would that be Sisulu and Resha who are the accused in this case?— Yes, those are the ones I know. 15

Now, Dr Conco, another question of propagan-da was dealt with, by means of printing publications, to put across its views and further objects - - another method that the African National Congress used was the question of campaigns in order to educate the people 20

and to raise their political consciousness; is that correct?— Yes, the campaigns were directed against specific grievances, for instance Bantu Education - the campaign against Bantu Education was an expression of an old policy of the African National Congress- - it 25 had always opposed Bantu Education; and now the A.N.C, to give a concrete example to the people of South Africa as a whole, to their opposition to Bantu Education. But one of the methods was campaigning.

But now, these campaigns were not intended 30

10979 DR. C0NC0

merely to serve an ad hoc purpose, is that correct? They 1

were not intended merely to be a campaign against Bantu Education as such, or a campaign against the Western Areas Removal Scheme as such; these campaigns were used for a far wider purpose. Is that not so?— What purpose?

Were not these campaigns an integral part of 5 the struggle for liberation?— An integral part of the struggle for liberation?

Yes?— I don't follow the question very well. Were not these campaigns regarded as means to

achieve the objects of the Liberation Movement?— Partly. 10 These campaigns were means of demonstrating to the people of South Africa, drawing attention to the opposition - -I'll take the example of Bantu Education - - of drawing attention to the opposition to Bantu Education by the African National Congress. 15

Were these campaigns not also intended to raise the political consciousness of the African people?— Yes.

And to prepare them for the strugglefor libera-tion?— I don't seem to follow this struggle for libera-tion . . . I don't know how I can explain it . . could I 20

t just be given a chance to explain what the objects of the campaigns really were?

Yes?— Take a campaign like Bantu Education. In Africans' Claims there is there stipulated quite defi-nitely the policy of the African Rational Congress with 25 respect to Education, and it is there pointed out that the African National Congress is opposed to any system of education earmarked for a special racial group. Then when the Bantu Education Act was passed in 1951 the African National Congress had a programme, a programme 30

10980 DR. C0HC0

of action, of how it would conduct its opposition; the i programme of action to which I have already referred. And using this programme, and to demonstrate our cpposi-^ tion to Bantu Education, as it was then passed in 1951, we then called upon parents to withdraw their children from school, as a way of demonstrating, not only to the 5 Africans but to the whole of the people in South Africa, to draw their attention to our opposition to Bantu Edu-cation.

Could I then put it this way and wouldit he correct to summarise what you say now by saying that 10

the Bantu Education Act campaign was intended merely to direct the attention of the people to the opposition of Africans to the Bantu Education Act?— Yes, to draw the attention of the whole of the South African population -the whole electorate, all the people in all different 15 groups who were interested - - -

Was it not intended to further any other pur-pose?— At the same time it had to further the purposes of consolidatihg the organisation.

It had to serve the purpose of consolidating 20

the whole country?— The organisation. The organisation?— Yes. By conducting a

campaign we wanted it also to teach our people, and also mobilise them into using the methods we had adopted, of conducting our campaign. 25

When you say mobilising your people, do you mean the members of the African National Congress9— The members of the National African Congress.

For the African people as a whole?— The mem-bers of the African National Congress, and also to draw

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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