< 1> Wednesday, 1st April 1998< 2> MR LAWSON: Sir, the proposal would be to recall< 3> Sergeant Clement to continue his evidence. He was in< 4> the course of cross-examination, as I understand it.< 5> He is in attendance. I think he is represented by< 6> Mr Gompertz.< 7> MR GOMPERTZ: Yes, I appear for Sergeant Clement. He< 8> is here. I have seen him.< 9> THE CHAIRMAN: Sergeant Clement would you come forward<10> again, please.<11> <SERGEANT CLEMENT, continued<12> THE CHAIRMAN: You are still under the oath that you<13> took maybe two or three days ago. As I understand<14> it, you are prepared to continue with your<15> cross-examination and to answer such questions as<16> counsel wish to ask you.<17> THE WITNESS: Yes, I am, sir.<18> THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Gompertz will watch your interests,<19> if that is the right expression, and represent you<20> should any intervention be necessary.<21> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR KAMLISH<22> Q. Mr Clement, can we very, very briefly recap on<23> what you say the scene looked like when you got<24> there, you say, at around 22.45, yes, on the night of<25> 22nd April?

. P-1168

< 1> A. Yes, I believe that is the time, yes.< 2> Q. You say you did not see Duwayne Brooks, yes?< 3> A. No, that is not the case, no -- sorry, Duwayne< 4> Brooks, I did not see (inaudible), sorry.< 5> Q. There were only two people there, both of whom< 6> were uniformed police officers?< 7> A. That's all I can remember seeing on the night,< 8> yes.< 9> Q. That is all you have noted as well. One was a<10> female officer and one was a male?<11> A. Yes.<12> Q. And one was crouched on the ground beside<13> Stephen?<14> A. Yes.<15> Q. You saw none of the other people who we know<16> were there then: Mr and Mrs Geddis; Mr Gleason, who<17> at on the timing would still have been there at<18> 10.45, because he did not leave to look for the<19> ambulance after the second ambulance call which was<20> at 10.48; a WPC called Smith; and Duwayne Brooks<21> himself. You see there were in fact six people plus<22> Stephen there, but you say there were only two?<23> A. What I am saying is that I only saw two. I can<24> only remember seeing the two police officers.<25> Q. No blood was seen by you?

. P-1169

< 1> A. Yes, that is the case.< 2> Q. You say because it was shadowed by the tree< 3> which you have accepted did not cast a shadow in that< 4> area?< 5> A. I agree with what you say and I also suggested< 6> that Stephen's body was shadowed. That is, in fact,< 7> what I said.< 8> Q. Both the officers who were present were in< 9> uniform, yes?<10> A. Yes.<11> Q. When you got out of your TSG carrier you say you<12> got out with Mr Groves?<13> A. Yes.<14> Q. And both of you approached Stephen's body and<15> the two officers with him?<16> A. Yes, that is the case.<17> Q. Who did the talking at that point?<18> A. I can't remember. Do you mean myself or<19> Mr Groves or which officer?<20> Q. Anyone?<21> A. I cannot remember who did the talking.<22> Q. Because this is a crucial coming together of<23> people who had been called to the scene and those who<24> were at the scene and one of your first jobs would<25> inevitably be to search for suspects?

. P-1170

< 1> A. That is the case, yes.< 2> Q. Yes. You are say from there was some< 3> conversation?< 4> A. Yes, that is the case, yes.< 5> Q. You are aware, are you not, that Mr Groves --< 6> and I will not have it put up because he is giving< 7> evidence later -- says that he tried to speak to the< 8> several people who were there and none of them< 9> answered him. You are aware he says that, are you<10> not?<11> A. I am not.<12> Q. You would disagree with that, would you?<13> A. I am not aware of that Mr Groves has said that.<14> I have not read his statement in depth.<15> Q. You would disagree that when he tried to ask his<16> officers who were junior to him at the scene what was<17> going on and what information they could give him he<18> said none of them answered his questions. He got<19> nothing from them, he will say, he has said in his<20> PCA interview. You disagree with that, do you not?<21> A. I said to you I could not remember who said what<22> and from where the information regarding the suspects<23> came from. I said that initially.<24> Q. He is saying nobody gave him any information<25> despite his asking. You would disagree with that,

. P-1171

< 1> would you not?< 2> A. I cannot disagree with it because I do not know< 3> -- I cannot remember what was said on the occasion< 4> and who Mr Groves spoke to.< 5> Q. Then you say in your evidence the other day that< 6> you both got back on the vehicle, U326, the one that< 7> were you on, and carried out a search of the area?< 8> A. I said that I got back on the vehicle.< 9> Q. No, you said we both, actually. I do not how to<10> turn up a witness's previous evidence but it is on<11> page 669 of the transcript of that day's<12> proceedings.<13> MR LAWSON: We do not have it scanned. We will have<14> to use the hard copy.<15> MR KAMLISH: I have it here, sir. I can hand it up.<16> THE CHAIRMAN: If the page says the other day he said<17> "we both got on" then I am sure Sergeant Clement<18> will accept it. Ask him again because he does not<19> seem to agree that that is so.<20> MR KAMLISH: I had better put the exact words just in<21> case they give two interpretations. You say, and I<22> will give the reference, it is page 669 starting at<23> line 13. Do you have that with you, Mr Clement?<24> THE CHAIRMAN: No, no.<25> THE WITNESS: I do not believe I have.

. P-1172

< 1> MR MANSFIELD: I have copy, but I am afraid it is< 2> marked. It is just underlined in blue, in fact, the< 3> passage that is about to be referred to.< 4> THE CHAIRMAN: This is the transcript of what you said< 5> last time were you here.< 6> MR KAMLISH: I will hand you up mine if you want to< 7> see it. This is verbatim, is it not, Mr Clement,< 8> line 13:< 9> "From memory, I got out of the side door of the<10> carrier, walked to within a few feet of the officers,<11> passed them. Presumably, I spoke to the officers. I<12> cannot remember what I said and what they said to<13> me. Quickly we returned to our vehicle and searched<14> the vicinity."<15> Only two of you got out so the "we" must refer<16> to you and Mr Groves, yes?<17> A. That is what I have said. I cannot remember. I<18> mean I am making that statement in a paragraph<19> there. I cannot remember if Mr Groves got on the<20> carrier with me or not.<21> Q. You remembered the other day that you, "we" in<22> the plural, got back on?<23> A. Yes. I answered a lot of questions the other<24> day. I cannot remember if Mr Groves got on the<25> carrier or not with me.

. P-1173

< 1> Q. That statement may have been mistaken. You< 2> simply cannot say now?< 3> A. Yes. That is what I am saying, yes.< 4> Q. There appears to have been four searches< 5> conducted by you that evening and over into the early< 6> hours of the next morning. Just to summarise, the< 7> first one is this quick drive round and then down to< 8> the Welcome Inn Pub?< 9> A. Yes.<10> Q. The second one is the cursory search of gardens?<11> A. Yes.<12> Q. The third one is what you described as not a<13> thorough but a house-to-house search of some sort?<14> A. Yes.<15> Q. The fourth one is the much more thorough<16> physical search of the area with dragon lights?<17> A. Yes.<18> Q. The first three would have taken place, you say<19> on your timings, before midnight on the 22nd?<20> A. At a rough guess, yes.<21> Q. Or ending at around midnight, perhaps going over<22> by a quarter of an hour or so, but thereabouts?<23> A. Thereabouts, yes.<24> Q. I will call the first three the "22 searches"<25> for your ease of reference.

. P-1174

< 1> The first vehicle search was Mr Groves on your< 2> carrier?< 3> A. I can't remember.< 4> Q. You remember you said the other day that if< 5> there had been people in the street we would have got< 6> off or one of us would and had a word to see if they< 7> had seen anything?< 8> A. Yes.< 9> Q. You say you that you cannot now remember whether<10> you spoke to people in the street or not, whether the<11> vehicle ever stopped to do that?<12> A. Yes, that's right.<13> Q. Then you go down to the pub and came back. You<14> say when you came back in one statement Stephen was<15> still there. You say that in a mistake and in fact<16> he was not there by the time you came back?<17> A. That's right, yes.<18> Q. Did you see the ambulance driving off?<19> A. I cannot remember seeing an ambulance.<20> Q. At all?<21> A. At all.<22> Q. Then there is the second search, the cursory<23> search of gardens, with inadequate light. It is<24> quite clear, is it not?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1175

< 1> Q. That did not yield anything and made no note of< 2> that?< 3> A. Yes, that's right.< 4> Q. Then we come to what I suggest is the important< 5> search which is the house-to-house enquiries you< 6> made, not thoroughly and not with forms, but they are< 7> important, these first house-to-house enquiries,?< 8> A. Yes, of course.< 9> Q. Yes. Now, can you tell us, please, what<10> questions, standard questions, you would ask on this<11> kind of -- first important house-to-house set of<12> enquiries?<13> A. Obviously, I cannot remember questions I have<14> asked people. The type of question I may have asked<15> and would be common sense to ask would be something<16> like: "There has been an incident in the street and<17> somebody has been seriously injured. Did you see<18> anything?" Perhaps indicate roughly the vicinity<19> where it happened, the junction of Dickson Road. Did<20> they see or hear anything? Did they see anyone<21> running off, a vehicle driving off or anything, those<22> type of questions.<23> Q. Did you not consider you may be calling at the<24> house where one of the killers was at the very time<25> you knocked on the door?

. P-1176

< 1> A. A number of thoughts would go through your< 2> mind. Obviously, you are making enquiries, you have< 3> you to knock on the door of the houses so you cannot< 4> not knock on the door, the number of doors, in case< 5> the killer is there because otherwise you would never< 6> knock on any front doors.< 7> Q. Exactly. The point is that you might actually< 8> be speaking to one of the killers, or a relative of< 9> one of the killers, or a cohabitee of one of the<10> killers, as the door is opened?<11> A. There is always that possibility, yes.<12> Q. Does that not mean that an important set of<13> questions to ask is the person's name, who lives at<14> the house and whether everyone has been in all<15> evening or, "what time have you come in", and so on,<16> because later on, if people are arrested, and this is<17> obvious, you would be able to say, "they were at home<18> or were not at you home at the time we searched", so<19> if they now, for example, serve an alibi notice<20> saying they were there all evening, "we can prove<21> that is a lie", and that would be a crucial piece<22> evidence at the trial, would it not?<23> A. I understand what you are saying, that if the<24> suspects had been at the address the likelihood is<25> that they would not answer the door to begin with and

. P-1177

< 1> secondly, those in-depth enquiries are put to the< 2> individuals and the occupants of the houses on the< 3> formal house-to-house enquiries and the enquiries we< 4> make, which is tentative enquiries, to obtain< 5> information to assist us and other officers to search< 6> the vicinity for any suspects. For a start, you do< 7> not expect to see the suspect at a front door near< 8> the scene.< 9> Q. Why not?<10> A. On this sort of incident, and secondly, time was<11> of the essence, we wanted to get the information as<12> quickly as we could so we could circulate the<13> information.<14> Q. The most important thing was to get the suspects<15> as quickly as you could, that is why you were doing<16> these early searches?<17> A. I agree and that is why we did the initial<18> mobile search of the vicinity which you are saying I<19> didn't do. The most thing, yes, I agree, is to<20> search and apprehended the suspects and that is what<21> we did, we searched the side streets and<22> unfortunately we never found them.<23> Q. Exactly, and it must therefore have been obvious<24> to you by the time you got around to the cursory<25> house-to-house before midnight, they may have been in

. P-1178

< 1> one of those houses, because having driven around the< 2> area very quickly there were no group of 5 or 6 white< 3> youths that you could see, so unless they had driven< 4> off in a vehicle the chances are these people were< 5> actually in one of the houses in the area. That must< 6> be right as common sense?< 7> A. They may have been in one of the houses.< 8> Q. They may have been, of course?< 9> A. We made those tentative enquiries to obtain<10> useful information. It is not general practice for<11> us to make notes of every single person we speak to<12> at a front door, we are obviously trying to do these<13> enquiries expediently.<14> Q. I am sorry to labour this, but the whole purpose<15> of your early searches of house-to-house and driving<16> around is to find the suspects by asking other<17> people, yes?<18> A. I agree, yes.<19> Q. So when you go to the houses, your prime concern<20> is whether or not the people in the house either saw<21> the suspects or know the suspects or may be the<22> suspects, they were the 3 possibilities, are they<23> not?<24> A. I do not know if you are suggesting that we did<25> not ask the right questions. If you say to

. P-1179

< 1> somebody: "Did you see or hear anything?" and they< 2> say: "Yes, I did." you would say: "What did the< 3> suspects look like?" Then your line of questioning< 4> in the enquiry would lead on from what the initial< 5> response was given. Obviously, if they said: "Yes,< 6> we did see something", you would stay with that< 7> person sometime longer and question them in depth and< 8> if they had seen something you would make a note of< 9> it. Then you would investigate and question in<10> greater depth. I mean, if someone says: "No, I<11> didn't see anything", you are not going to stand<12> there and grille them and give them a real testing<13> line of questioning because you disbelieve them. You<14> do not do that.<15> Q. Surely the first question would be: "Name<16> please, who lives here, have you been in all<17> evening?" Three basic questions which would set a<18> suspect up for later on if that person lives at that<19> house. It would not alert the house holder to any<20> suspicion because it a normal sort of series of<21> house-to-house questions, and then ask the other<22> questions from there on. Surely that is the way you<23> would have gone about it or ought to have done?<24> A. I disagree.<25> Q. You went to Phineas-Pitt Road, did you not, on

. P-1180

< 1> this house-to-house, you said so the other day, your< 2> officers did, that was one of the roads that was< 3> searched?< 4> A. Yes, I see that road, yes.< 5> Q. Can we have Law 9 page 537 up, please. Law< 6> 00090537.< 7> THE CHAIRMAN: What is it?< 8> MR KAMLISH: It is Gary Dobson's alibi notice.< 9> "Gary Dobson lived with his parents at number 13<10> Phineas-Pitt Road"?<11> A. What number?<12> Q. 13. You have no record of having gone to the<13> door of that house nor has anybody else?<14> A. I certainly have no record, no.<15> Q. Your programme was that you would only go to<16> houses with lights on, yes? That is what you said<17> the other day.<18> A. Possibly we would knock on houses with lights<19> on. The house-to-house we made were in Well Hall<20> Road, as far as I can remember, and in the vicinity<21> of the incident and the tentative house-to-house<22> enquiries we made were in the vicinity of Well Hall<23> Road.<24> Q. Not in any other road?<25> A. I cannot recall knocking on any doors down in

. P-1181

< 1> any of the side streets.< 2> Q. Sorry, but the assailants had run off down< 3> Dickson Road towards the Brook Estate?< 4> A. That is correct, yes.< 5> Q. Why did you not go down Dickson Road and knock< 6> on doors there and roads that led into the Brook< 7> Estate? What is the point of knocking on the Well< 8> Hall Road doors only?< 9> A. I am suggesting to you that I can only remember<10> knocking on doors in Well Hall Road. I cannot<11> remember knocking on any other doors in any other<12> streets on that night.<13> Q. Let us use Gary Dobson's alibi notice as an<14> example. We see that he lives at that address, yes,<15> 13 Phineas-Pitt?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. He states in his alibi notice at the time<18> Stephen was attacked he was at home at around 10.30,<19> yes; is that right?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. If we could turn the page, please. That is the<22> information he gives. If you had gone on a<23> house-to-house or a cursory house-to-house or another<24> officer had at, say, 11.15 and found him not there or<25> fund him there in a particular state or with another

. P-1182

< 1> white youth, his alibi would be blown to pieces,< 2> would it not, or there is a possibility, depending on< 3> what time you went and what time he puts in his alibi< 4> notice. I am just giving this as an example of how< 5> your earlier recording visits to houses and what< 6> people have said could blow somebody's alibi out of< 7> the water.< 8> A. What you are saying is, if he had not have been< 9> in it would have blown his alibi to pieces, is that<10> what you are saying.<11> Q. It would have helped the prosecution?<12> A. I agree, of course, yes.<13> Q. Your failure to record who you spoke to and the<14> houses you went to would have lost the prosecution<15> that advantage forever, would it not?<16> A. You use the word "failure", I do not think we<17> failed in anything we did on that evening. We were<18> very professional and expedient in our enquiries on<19> that evening.<20> Q. Let me ask you, please, about the houses without<21> lights on. You said the other day you did not knock<22> on doors where the house had no light on. Is that<23> not rather silly because if the suspects had gone<24> into a house they are going to put the lights off<25> when they see the police coming up the road, are they

. P-1183

< 1> not, it is likely?< 2> A. It is also likely they would never have answered< 3> the door anyway, as I suggested earlier on. I see< 4> your point, but these enquiries were tentative< 5> enquiries and they were being done expediently and< 6> that was the course of action we probably took on the< 7> night.< 8> Q. You agree that of all of the enquiries made in< 9> the whole investigation in the first couple of days<10> or 3 days, the first knocking at doors within minutes<11> of the stabbing must have been the ones most likely<12> to yield useful information because they were so<13> close to the event, people's memories would be fresh,<14> suspects may be indoors?<15> A. I agree, yes.<16> Q. So you should have knocked at houses with no<17> lights on, should you not?<18> A. As I said, we were making these enquiries<19> expediently and they were tentative enquiries and it<20> was late at night. I realise it was a serious<21> offence and getting people out of bed for such a<22> matter was perhaps not significant, but we did make<23> the enquiries at the houses possibly with lights on<24> or with people looking out of windows. Those<25> enquiries were made.

. P-1184

< 1> Q. It is not that late, is it, just before< 2> midnight? Some people go to bed before midnight, but< 3> in the context of this very serious crime, so what?< 4> A. That is what I just said.< 5> Q. Yes, so why did you not knock at the houses with< 6> no lights on?< 7> A. It was not expedient to do that and we were< 8> selective, I would say, and from memory we knocked on< 9> the houses with the lights on or with people at the<10> doors or at the windows rather.<11> Q. It was in your mind at the time, was it, that<12> suspects, if they had gone indoors, would have been<13> likely to put their lights off so as not to get a<14> knock on the door from the police. Was that in your<15> mind at the time?<16> A. We had been given information that the suspects<17> had run off into Dickson Road. As I said, from<18> memory, we made those enquiries in Well Hall Road<19> probably in the vicinity of Dickson Road. The<20> likelihood of the suspects being in an address in<21> Well Hall Road, bearing in mind that information, was<22> not on my mind really. I would say we thought the<23> suspects had made off down Dickson Road and --<24> Q. Have you seen the colour plan prepared by Kent?<25> A. Yes, I have one here, yes.

. P-1185

< 1> Q. To show which houses were visited, and so on, on< 2> the 22nd.< 3> May I say without taking the officer through< 4> this, we looked at the statements or documents of the< 5> occupants, or some of them, which are marked in green< 6> are said by Kent to be houses receiving police< 7> contact on the night of the 22nd, and looking through< 8> some of them, it is wrong, they did not receive< 9> police contact.<10> THE CHAIRMAN: Your point about the houses is well<11> made already, is it not.<12> MR KAMLISH: Sir, this plan purports to show some 10<13> or so houses were in fact --<14> THE CHAIRMAN: Tell us about that later. That is not<15> a matter for the witness.<16> MR KAMLISH: I will not trouble you with it, but the<17> fact is the only house in Dickson Road that appears<18> to have had a visit according to Kent anywhere off<19> Well Hall Road is 10 Dickson Road?<20> A. According to this map that is the case.<21> Q. Not a single other house in Dickson Road or in<22> any of the roads beyond, where the offenders would<23> have had to have gone if they got to the end of<24> Dickson Road and turned left or right?<25> A. That is the case, yes.

. P-1186

< 1> Q. How many officers were there of you conducting< 2> the first cursory house-to-house on that night< 3> looking for suspects?< 4> A. I don't know, perhaps a dozen or so. The< 5> suspects had allegedly run off into Dickson Road, as< 6> you said. They were obviously fleeing from the scene< 7> of a crime. Perhaps we considered that when they ran< 8> off down the road, they would run off as quickly and< 9> quietly as possible and would not be running down the<10> road drawing attention to themselves.<11> Q. It is hard not to if there is 5 or 6 of them<12> just having stabbed someone in a panic?<13> A. It is hard not to what?<14> Q. To draw attention to themselves.<15> A. By drawing attention to themselves they could<16> run down the road quietly and very quickly, and they<17> would draw less attention to themselves than if they<18> ran off down the road shouting, as probably happened,<19> at the junction of Dickson Road.<20> THE CHAIRMAN: The point is that you did not go to any<21> houses beyond Dickson Road.<22> THE WITNESS: I have said that, yes.<23> THE CHAIRMAN: That is the point and the criticism is<24> there for you to make.<25> MR KAMLISH: The point is, with respect, they only

. P-1187

< 1> went to one house Dickson Road.< 2> THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate that.< 3> MR KAMLISH: (To the witness): Why only one house on< 4> Dickson Road?< 5> A. I don't know; perhaps someone was at the front< 6> door; perhaps the light was on; I cannot say at this< 7> time.< 8> Q. Dickson Road must have been the most important< 9> road for consideration when you were there doing the<10> house-to-house, surely, because that is where they<11> had gone?<12> A. The most important road was Well Hall Road at<13> the junction with Dickson Road in my opinion.<14> Q. Now, going back and almost finally to when you<15> arrived at the scene, you say you got there around<16> 10.45. Yes?<17> A. Yes.<18> Q. That is the time you have given in your<19> statements. You remember the questions I asked you<20> the other day which led you to stop halfway through<21> and come back today. I asked you whether you were<22> really there when you say you were and did you not in<23> fact come some time later, which you heavily denied?<24> A. Yes, of course.<25> Q. Can we have up on the screen, please, PCA45,

. P-1188

< 1> page 332. This is an extract from the CAD messages< 2> that night. Can we stop there please, can we have< 3> the cursor on the last line. How familiar are you< 4> with CAD?< 5> A. I am CAD trained.< 6> Q. All those messages on every CAD page such as< 7> this are contemporaneously put down. You cannot< 8> fiddle with the CAD later on, can you?< 9> A. You can put entries on -- if messages come over<10> the radio and someone misses them, they can<11> subsequently put them on, but the time that later<12> message is put on will be shown, yes.<13> Q. Have you been through this with your counsel?<14> A. No.<15> Q. Can we start at the top of the page, let us go<16> to the first remarks on this page. Read along that<17> line, you have the correct date, yes, 22nd April?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. The correct contemporaneous time, the time at<20> which the operator types it in or receives the<21> message, there always some dispute about that, is<22> there not, as to whether that is time of receipt or<23> typing in, but it is always within about a minute of<24> accuracy?<25> A. That comes up on the time that enter or the send

. P-1189

< 1> key is pressed.< 2> Q. That is usually within half a minute of the< 3> message coming through and the CAD operator beginning< 4> to type it in?< 5> A. It depends on the efficiency of the individual< 6> CAD operator. For instance, I am not very competent< 7> on CAD myself and if we had an incident like this< 8> going on, I would may be writing things down on a bit< 9> of paper by the side, and entering them on sometime<10> other because I am not a very quick typist to begin<11> with. In fact some operators are very efficient and<12> type at speed and enter things on as they are spoken<13> to on the radio. We are all different.<14> Q. The time varies slightly, but even when you<15> write it down on a piece of paper next to you, you<16> put the time you get the message?<17> A. Possibly, yes.<18> Q. You have to have some idea of the time in order<19> to type it in couple of minutes later?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. All I want to put to you is that the time 23.42<22> may not be precise, but it is within 2 or 3 minutes<23> of the real time these things occurred?<24> A. It should be, yes.<25> Q. It is within 3 minutes?

. P-1190

< 1> A. I don't know when this person typed, I would say< 2> it should be within 2 or 3 minutes.< 3> Q. That is what you are trained to do, put the< 4> correct times in?< 5> A. Yes.< 6> Q. The next number is the officer's -- is that the< 7> terminal number or the number of the officer typing< 8> it in?< 9> A. That would be a warrant number.<10> Q. The next RA127, is that the terminal?<11> A. Possibly, yes.<12> Q. Then you get the next line, you get the message<13> that the operator, he or she, has heard?<14> A. Yes.<15> Q. We see what it says and he goes on down that<16> page sequentially in chronological timing, does it<17> not? The next message is timed at 23.43?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. And it goes on. So the final block of four<20> lines on the bottom of the page are in the same<21> chronological sequence, are they not? If we start on<22> line 2, we start on 23.42 on this page and we look at<23> the bottom, the first time here is 23.42, right?<24> A. Yes.<25> Q. So the times at the bottom of the page are

. P-1191

< 1> consistent with the times on the rest of the page< 2> showing that this is contemporaneously created< 3> document, yes?< 4> A. Yes.< 5> Q. Look at the last line, go along to 23.45. You< 6> say that you got there at 22.45, do you not?< 7> A. That is the case, yes.< 8> Q. This line -- and I will you through it in a< 9> minute -- shows that you got there an hour later,<10> does it not? 23.45, yes, is the time and them we get<11> a colon. After the colon is what happens during that<12> minute, is it not?<13> A. That is correct, yes.<14> Q. Now, the first numbers are not relevant, they<15> are operator names?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. RA is what, a police station -- Plumstead?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. SI?<20> A. That is an operator at the yard.<21> Q. That name 65210 is the pay number of the<22> operator, is it?<23> A. I think that is the civilian number.<24> Q. It is in fact. I looked at the statement of the<25> expert and that is the civilian CAD operator number.

. P-1192

< 1> Then we get IR in brackets. What does that mean?< 2> A. Information room.< 3> Q. Then AV means vehicles, does it not, assignment< 4> of vehicles?< 5> A. That is correct.< 6> Q. Your vehicle is in that list of four, is it not?< 7> A. It is, yes.< 8> Q. Yes, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6?< 9> A. Yes.<10> Q. This message shows that your vehicle and the<11> other TSG carriers were assigned; that is, they<12> received the call to go there at an hour later than<13> you say, yes?<14> A. That is what that indicates, yes.<15> Q. Then PI at the end means that this has being<16> passed to the local station to let them know that<17> these vehicles have been assigned?<18> A. That is correct, yes.<19> Q. All one can say is that the record shows in<20> chronological order, which is why I said to you that<21> things cannot be fiddled on a CAD, because it is all<22> in sequence contemporaneously recorded?<23> A. Yes.<24> Q. That your vehicle was not assigned until an hour<25> after you say it was?

. P-1193

< 1> A. What this indicates to me it, it clearly looks< 2> that way on here. As an individual unit uniform 326,< 3> we had responded to that call at -- on the initial< 4> call and were the second unit on scene. This would< 5> indicate to me that the Commissioner's Reserve< 6> uniform 323, 4, 5 and 6 were officially assigned to< 7> this incident by information room at that time.< 8> Q. What does that mean?< 9> A. As I said, we were officially assigned as a<10> unit, this is what it is suggesting to me, to<11> Plumstead Division.<12> Q. What does "officially" mean?<13> MR LAWSON: Sorry to interrupt this. I am sure there<14> is some good explanation for it, but I notice<15> Mr Kamlish has not drawn attention to the first part<16> of the CAD message.<17> MR KAMLISH: I was about to do, sir.<18> MR LAWSON: Perhaps he would like to do that in<19> relation to the interpretation of what the assignment<20> vehicles there were.<21> MR KAMLISH: I was about to do that, sir.<22> MR LAWSON: Thank you.<23> MR KAMLISH: I wanted to seek this officer's<24> explanation first as to how he interpreted that<25> message. Can we go back now to the first page. The

. P-1194

< 1> very first page of the CAD which is the page before,< 2> the summary page. It should be 330 -- sorry, keep< 3> going back please about three pages back.< 4> MR LAWSON: 329.< 5> MR KAMLISH: Thank you very much.< 6> This is a summary page, is it not? It is not a< 7> contemporaneous page?< 8> A. This appears to be one of the original calls< 9> received.<10> Q. Well, let us look at the assigned line there<11> halfway down. Do you see that, assigned?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. What you have there is all the vehicles that<14> have been assigned to this scene throughout the<15> incident, have we not?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. From the first Panda car that arrives to the<18> last police car, including the carriers that arrive,<19> yes?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. So it is a summary that must have been made<22> after the event because some of these vehicles did<23> not arrive, for example by the time of the first time<24> recorded on this message, on this page, yes? So this<25> is a summary page?

. P-1195

< 1> A. I would not say a summary page. That is not a< 2> term I would use. This appears to be an original< 3> call received by the station and ----< 4> Q. Right?< 5> A. ---- often what happens if there are a number of< 6> calls received by different, say, information room,< 7> receiver call, the two operators in the CAD room at< 8> Plumstead received calls, they would each make a< 9> record or and incident entry which would create one<10> of these -- a page would come up and you would fill<11> in the spaces.<12> It is then for the controller at the police<13> station to decide which copy or which record would be<14> used.<15> Q. Right?<16> A. The others would be linked to it. I do not know<17> if this one has been (inaudible).<18> Q. Let us just look at the timing to see if we can<19> work this out. I think this is quite easy. Can you<20> go to the top of the page. Next line down to the<21> end, can you see the time 22.43?<22> A. Yes.<23> Q. Which is obviously the time of a distressed male<24> calling in?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1196

< 1> Q. Because that is the first thing that happens to< 2> justify a CAD being created?< 3> A. I agree, yes.< 4> Q. Then we go down to the assigned line and go to< 5> the end which says TOA which must mean time of< 6> arrival, 22.50, right?< 7> A. Yes.< 8> Q. That is not, and this is why I am referring to< 9> it as a summary, the time of arrival of all those<10> vehicles, is it?<11> A. No, probably not, no.<12> Q. It cannot be, can it?<13> A. We would not all arrive at once. It would not<14> happen like that.<15> Q. It must be the time of arrival of the first<16> vehicle?<17> A. Yes.<18> Q. It must be the time of arrival of the first<19> vehicle?<20> A. More than likely, yes.<21> Q. Which is RW 821?<22> A. Yes.<23> MR KAMLISH: Thank you very much. No further<24> questions.<25> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS WOODLEY

. P-1197

< 1> Q. I ask questions on behalf of Messrs Illsley,< 2> Crampton and Weeden. Sergeant Clement, I just wanted< 3> to ask you about the formal house-to-house enquiries.< 4> A. Yes.< 5> Q. You told us last week you went to the daily< 6> briefings?< 7> A. I went to a number of briefings, yes.< 8> Q. I think Detective Sergeant McKenzie was, in< 9> fact, in charge of the house-to-house enquiries; do<10> you remember that?<11> A. I don't.<12> Q. Can you recall if you went to the briefing on<13> Friday, 23rd April at 2 clock given by Detective<14> Inspector Bullock?<15> A. I cannot remember who gave the briefing, but I<16> was certainly at a number of briefings. I do not<17> know the individual officers. So I was probably<18> there, yes.<19> Q. You were probably there. Can I turn now to the<20> briefing on Saturday, 24th April. That was from<21> 5 o'clock in the evening to 6.50. Were you at that<22> briefing?<23> A. I believe I was, yes.<24> Q. I wonder if we could have, please, PCA 32, 3.<25> You seemed last week a little uncertain as to whether

. P-1198

< 1> you had heard the names, Acourt, Norris and Dobson< 2> when you attended those briefings meetings?< 3> A. That is the case, yes. I mean, I cannot< 4> remember whether they were the names mentioned on< 5> those briefings or not. I can't remember -- I< 6> probably made some notes of those.< 7> Q. You do recall that some suspects' names were< 8> mentioned?< 9> A. Some suspects. Those names -- I do not know<10> which ones they were.<11> Q. Did you remain throughout the briefing?<12> A. I am not sure. Obviously, when I left the<13> briefing, if the briefing continued, I mean we were<14> not there a great length of time. I was certainly<15> not there for a long time. We were just updated<16> briefly as to what was happening and we continued off<17> to carry on with the house-to-house enquiries.<18> Q. But, obviously, if important information had<19> come up after you had left the briefing no doubt<20> Detective Sergeant McKenzie would have told you?<21> A. I would like to hope so, yes.<22> MS WOODLEY: Thank you very much.<23> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR EAGAN<24> Q. Two matters. I represent police officers,<25> amongst them Inspector Groves. I am going to be

. P-1199

< 1> asking you about things that happened a long time< 2> ago. I appreciate that. Just two questions: firstly< 3> do you remember Inspector Groves asking you right< 4> early on when you arrived at the scene to post< 5> someone, an officer at the scene, I suggest WPC< 6> Norrie?< 7> A. Inspector Groves was in charge and she was< 8> posted at that location by me and presumably< 9> Mr Groves gave me that direction, yes.<10> Q. Secondly, please, do you remember Mr Groves<11> telling you, that is you Sergeant Clement -- you are<12> in charge of your own TSG carrier, are you not?<13> A. That is the case, yes.<14> Q. Do you remember him telling you to get mobile<15> units to search the area quickly?<16> A. That was a direction, yes. I certainly got on<17> the carrier and went off and searched the side<18> streets, Dickson Road and the vicinity, as I already<19> stated, yes.<20> Q. Yes. Do I understand that you agree that that<21> was almost certainly given to you by Mr Groves?<22> A. More than likely, yes. A strong possibility,<23> yes MR EGAN: Thank you very much.<24> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR MCDONALD<25> Q. I represent Duwayne Brooks, whose name has been

. P-1200

< 1> mentioned to you, but who you say you did not< 2> actually see or meet when you arrived at the scene?< 3> A. That is what I say, yes.< 4> Q. When you got to the scene you have told us that< 5> you went on an initial mobile search up Dickson Road?< 6> A. That is the case, yes.< 7> Q. And you were looking for a group of five or six< 8> white youths, males?< 9> A. Yes.<10> Q. Who had run off up Dickson Road, according to<11> your information?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Sergeant, that information originally came from<14> Duwayne Brooks. What I wanted to ask you was where<15> did you get the information from?<16> A. I said when earlier questioned on that I could<17> not remember exactly where that information came<18> from. It either came from the officers that were<19> spoken to at the scene or it came over the personal<20> radio.<21> Q. Or a bit of both?<22> A. Or a bit of both.<23> Q. Yes. You told us, I think the last time you<24> came to give evidence, that one of the things of<25> course you would not know is when a group of

. P-1201

< 1> attackers disappear off up a side street they may< 2> have a car parked up there which they get into?< 3> A. Yes, there is always that possibility, yes.< 4> Q. So, no doubt, you were also on the look-out,< 5> were you, for cars that might contain youths of that< 6> general description?< 7> A. Yes.< 8> Q. You, in fact, saw such a car, did you not?< 9> A. We saw a vehicle, yes. A red vehicle, yes.<10> Drive along Well Hall Road on two occasions on that<11> night.<12> Q. A red Vauxhall Astra?<13> A. Yes, that is the case, yes.<14> Q. You took a note -- a partial note of the index<15> number?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. On a bit of paper?<18> A. I cannot remember where that note was made. It<19> may have been made in my pocket book -- I cannot<20> remember.<21> Q. In any event, you passed that on, did you not?<22> A. Yes.<23> Q. How many people did that vehicle contain?<24> A. From memory, I said it was full of white youths,<25> I believe.

. P-1202

< 1> Q. Shall we -- do you want to have a look at your< 2> first witness statement?< 3> A. I am looking at the hard copy here.< 4> Q. You have the hard copy?< 5> A. I have, yes.< 6> Q. Yes?< 7> A. I said -- according to my statement, I< 8> said: "There were about five persons in the car."< 9> Q. And white, so far as you could make out?<10> A. Presumably, yes. I mean ----<11> Q. Male?<12> A. Well, the car was full of people. I mean, when<13> you see it disappearing up the road from behind it<14> looks full. It looked like there was five people in<15> there, yes.<16> Q. You would not have logged that car unless there<17> was something suspicious about it, would you?<18> A. That is right, yes. As I have said, we<19> obviously -- information that you received or that<20> you received that is of no evidential purpose or of<21> any use to anybody you would not make a note of it.<22> Q. So there was something suspicious about that?<23> A. Something odd, yes.<24> Q. According to your statement were you told by a<25> fellow police officer, PC Hodges, that the occupants

. P-1203

< 1> were laughing as they looked on?< 2> A. Yes, that is what he told me, yes.< 3> Q. Was that what was suspicious or they fitted the< 4> general description that originally came from< 5> Duwayne Brooks of 5 or 6 white youths, male?< 6> A. It is certainly relevant, the car had 5 people< 7> in it, white, and as they drove past according to< 8> PC Hodges they were laughing. That would obviously< 9> make you consider this vehicle may have had something<10> to do with it, why would they be laughing.<11> Q. You took steps, I understand, to have that<12> vehicle stopped?<13> A. Yes, by circulating the details or as much<14> detail that I had of the vehicle on the radio and try<15> and get that vehicle stopped.<16> Q. Yes. By this time it is late at night. In your<17> experience would it be relatively easy if you put out<18> a suggestion that a vehicle is stopped, that it is<19> fairly easy for police to do that?<20> A. It varies. Sometimes if the traffic is heavy it<21> is easier to stop vehicles during the day, but if the<22> roads are clear the vehicle can make more ground and<23> get more distance between us.<24> Q. This was not a particularly new vehicle, was<25> it? It was a bit of an old banger, was it not?

. P-1204

< 1> A. I think so, yes.< 2> Q. A registration, or something like that?< 3> A. The registration, I believe it began with A.< 4> Q. Can you help us at all about the time that you< 5> made this sighting, the first sighting? I wonder if< 6> we could have his statement PCA 003828 up on the< 7> screen.< 8> I do not know if that helps you because you do say in< 9> the middle of the page there that it is after your<10> brief search that you returned to the scene and then<11> you do various things to preserve the scene?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Does that help you at all in trying to give us a<14> time?<15> A. It is difficult to say. Obviously within, I<16> suppose, 15 minutes of us being there.<17> Q. I know there is a dispute about when you got<18> there, but you think within about 15 minutes of<19> getting there?<20> A. I think so, yes, it is hard to say, maybe<21> longer, maybe longer than that.<22> THE CHAIRMAN: Would you just scroll up. You<23> circulated the details of the car by your radio.<24> THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.<25> MR MCDONALD: Then you say at the bottom of the page

. P-1205

< 1> that while you were waiting to search, you have< 2> Dickinson Road, the Astra drove past again and this< 3> time it was going in the opposite direction?< 4> A. Yes.< 5> Q. Can you help us, you say in your statement that< 6> it was still full of people, it is actually over the< 7> page.< 8> A. That is the case, yes.< 9> Q. What we have, if I follow your evidence, is that<10> this red Vauxhall Astra, it comes down first of all<11> from the Shooters Hill direction going towards the<12> roundabout in Well Hall Road, that is the first time?<13> A. Yes.<14> Q. You notice 5 people in it?<15> A. Yes.<16> Q. You are sufficiently suspicious of it to<17> circulate its details?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. Then you see it coming from the opposite<20> direction in Well Hall Road again?<21> A. Yes.<22> Q. And still full of people?<23> A. That is what I have said, yes.<24> Q. Again, you circulated further information about<25> it for it to be stopped?

. P-1206

< 1> A. The same information about it was given out a< 2> second time and its change in direction would have< 3> been put out as well, yes.< 4> Q. Yes. Again, so far as you are aware, was that< 5> car stopped at all that night?< 6> A. As far as I am aware it was not ever stopped< 7> that night, no.< 8> Q. The second time that you saw it nothing had< 9> changed except the direction that it was going in?<10> A. Nothing appeared to have changed, no.<11> Q. Same number of people in it or appeared to be<12> the same number of people?<13> A. Appeared to be, yes.<14> Q. Full of people?<15> A. Yes.<16> Q. Full of people I presume means people in the<17> front and people in the back?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. You are quite sure about that?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. Thank you. It is only approximately a week<22> later, perhaps you can confirm, I think that if you<23> go to the bottom of your statement on 3492 -- that<24> must be 3493 is it not?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1207

< 1> Q. So a week later you see the same car, do you< 2> not?< 3> A. Yes.< 4> Q. And stop it?< 5> A. Yes.< 6> Q. You spoke to the driver and you took details,< 7> did you not?< 8> A. That is the case, yes.< 9> Q. I do not know if there is a rule of anonymity<10> applying to this driver or not?<11> THE CHAIRMAN: I do not see why not, it is in his<12> statement, unless anybody thinks he should be<13> anonymous.<14> MR LAWSON: There is a not a problem. There was a<15> number of witnesses who were given numbers at the<16> time of the disclosure of their statements to say the<17> Lawrence family's advisors for the private<18> prosecution and that numbering system has continued<19> through the many of the documents we have. I can<20> confirm there is no sensitivity about the identity of<21> any of them.<22> THE CHAIRMAN: Let us get on, he was Daniel Copley.<23> MR MCDONALD: That was Daniel Copley?<24> A. Yes, aged 18.<25> Q. Were you aware then or at any time subsequently

. P-1208

< 1> that Daniel Edward Copley had been convicted in< 2> connection with the attack on Nathan and Roland< 3> Adams, he was part of the attacking group which led< 4> to the murder of Roland Adams a little bit earlier?< 5> A. What you are telling me now is the first< 6> indication of that that I am aware of.< 7> Q. When you stopped the car, was he driving in it< 8> alone?< 9> A. I cannot remember if he was alone or not.<10> Presumably if there were other occupants in the<11> vehicle we would have obtained their details and<12> passed that on as we did with this information to the<13> Inquiry team.<14> Q. Maybe this will help your memory, if we can turn<15> to MET 0082 at page 0082. It is an action record<16> print and you can see if you go to the middle of that<17> that there is a message there which refers to the<18> incident:<19> "While I was at the scene, uniformed officers<20> noticed an old style Vauxhall drove past a number of<21> times with a group of youngsters in it. They seemed<22> to think that something was humorous about this."<23> Then it has a part index number which has been<24> redacted out, yes?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1209

< 1> Q. Then underneath that it has: "Uniformed officers< 2> may have more details", then it has the members of< 3> the TSG who were present and we can see you there as< 4> Police Sergeant 87?< 5> A. Yes.< 6> Q. Then I think PC 371 is Mr Hodges, is it not?< 7> A. That is the case, he is now Sergeant Hodges,< 8> yes.< 9> Q. The action which is further down is to identify<10> the vehicle and locate the driver, yes, at the bottom<11> of the page?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Then if we can turn over to the next page 0083,<14> we can see that that was allocated to DC Dell and<15> then later further down there it was allocated to<16> DS Fluke, but if we can go to the bottom of the page,<17> the result, yes, this refers to actions by yourself?<18> A. Appears to, yes.<19> Q. The vehicle was seen on 30th April by officers<20> who supplied the initial information and then the<21> full index number is given and it is driven by Daniel<22> Copley and a passenger Ciaran Highland?<23> A. Yes, I see that, yes.<24> Q. Does that bring it back that there was in fact a<25> passenger?

. P-1210

< 1> A. It does, yes.< 2> Q. No one ever told you that Daniel Copley, who you< 3> had stopped, had been involved in the racist murder< 4> of Roland Adams?< 5> A. Not until you informed me of that fact today,< 6> no.< 7> Q. Ciaran Highland, no one told you that he was< 8> leading light in the NTO, the Nazi Turnout, a racist< 9> organisation that operates in the Eltham area?<10> A. I was never informed of that either, no.<11> Q. In your duties as a police officer, have you<12> ever had occasion to go the Wild Fowler Public House?<13> A. I have, yes.<14> Q. That is in or was in Thamesmead, I believe it<15> may have closed down?<16> A. It was in Thamesmead and I do not know if it has<17> closed down or not. I have certainly been there<18> whilst an officer serving on the TSG, yes.<19> Q. That was a regular meeting place for confirmed<20> racists, was it not?<21> A. I believe it was, yes.<22> Q. It is not the sort of place any black person<23> would safely go into?<24> A. Well, I would say that was the case, yes.<25> Q. Did anyone tell you that from subsequent

. P-1211

< 1> enquiries that those two who were in the car when you< 2> stopped it were in fact in the car on the night in< 3> question going past the scene?< 4> A. Once we had submitted this information about the< 5> original sighting and the subsequent stopping of the< 6> vehicle with those two persons in the vehicle, once< 7> we submitted that information I did not speak to< 8> anybody about the file action or any of their< 9> connections with anything ever again.<10> Q. Or no one told you that you might have been<11> responsible for what could have turned out to be an<12> important lead?<13> A. I was never told, no.<14> Q. Are police officers not told if they have some<15> across a vital piece of information in a murder<16> enquiry?<17> A. Generally speaking, yes. Who decides it is<18> relevant, it certainly was not me on the occasions.<19> THE CHAIRMAN: That would be matter for the Senior<20> Investigating Officer, I suspect, would it not,<21> Mr McDonald.<22> MR MCDONALD: I suspect so. I wanted to find out the<23> limits of this officer's involvement.<24> THE CHAIRMAN: Were both of them involved in the<25> Roland Adams business?

. P-1212

< 1> MR MCDONALD: There was a third man who was identified< 2> as being in the car on the night in question called< 3> Jason Goatley, who was also convicted, along with< 4> Daniel Copley, of offences in connection with the< 5> attack on Roland Adams and his brother, in which< 6> Roland Adams was murdered.< 7> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, and one man was convicted of the< 8> murder.< 9> MR MCDONALD: A different man was convicted of the<10> murder.<11> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.<12> MR MCDONALD: If you were not told anything about<13> these things, you have told us that normally you<14> would be, would you conclude that that is because<15> senior officers did not think that what you had come<16> across that evening had any significance at all?<17> A. It is difficult for me to say what they<18> concluded. Generally, if you provide information<19> which may assist in and Inquiry you make a statement<20> and that is why I have made my original statement, I<21> presume, on 1st May, relating mainly to that<22> vehicle. In that statement, as you can see, I have<23> only briefly scanned over what other action we did.<24> So it tends to highlight that I was asked to make the<25> statement regarding the vehicle.

. P-1213

< 1> Q. I wonder if MET 00860133 can be put up. This is< 2> a message from yourself. You see that? Are you< 3> familiar with the form of these?< 4> A. I can see it is quite clear to me what it is< 5> about.< 6> Q. Yes. This is the message on the 30th, the date< 7> when you stopped the car, and you phoned in ----< 8> A. Yes.< 9> Q. ---- And you say that on the night of the 22nd a<10> red Astra drove past the scene approximately 20<11> minutes later and the occupants were laughing and<12> joking, yes?<13> A. That is what it says, yes.<14> Q. "We have just stop the vehicle concerned and the<15> details are as follows", and give ----<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. Then underneath that at the bottom of the page<18> apparently they were in involved in the Roland Adams<19> Inquiry. Has that come from you?<20> A. No.<21> Q. That is a comment, is it, by somebody on your<22> message that you had phoned in?<23> A. Possibly, I don't know. I have never been aware<24> that these people were involved in the Roland Adams<25> Inquiry.

. P-1214

< 1> Q. No. You can see the obvious significance of it< 2> now, can you not?< 3> A. Their involvement in that initial Inquiry, yes.< 4> Q. You see people -- in fact, the only people that< 5> you identified as behaving suspiciously that evening< 6> who come to the scene that you have been making safe< 7> not once but twice, who you put out a call to have< 8> stopped, which does not seem to have worked, and who< 9> only by your vigilance a week later are, in fact,<10> stopped?<11> A. Yes, that is the case.<12> Q. You were never told that those people you had<13> seen, had noted and had eventually stopped were<14> involved in the Roland Adams Inquiry?<15> A. I was never aware of that, no.<16> MR MCDONALD: Thank you.<17> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much.<18> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR YEARWOOD<19> Q. Sergeant Clement, I put questions to you on<20> behalf of the Commission for Racial Equality.<21> Firstly, can I ask you questions about what it was<22> that you did on the night of the 22nd having arrived<23> and then, secondly, I shall ask you questions about<24> your general experience as part of the Commissioner's<25> Reserve in Area 3.

. P-1215

< 1> Firstly this: it is frequently, is it not, your< 2> duty or part of your duty to command one of the< 3> carriers which is used in Area 3; is that right?< 4> A. Yes, that is correct, yes.< 5> Q. Would it also be right that frequently you will< 6> arrive at the scene as one of the senior officers or< 7> the senior offer arriving first?< 8> A. That does happen at times, yes.< 9> Q. When that happen is it your duty to take charge<10> of the situation as you find it?<11> A. Yes.<12> Q. And as part of that duty would you want, first<13> to consider the question of victims, would that be<14> your first consideration?<15> A. Yes. If you arrive at a road accident you<16> consider the casualties. If you arrive at an assault<17> that is very serious or even minor you consider the<18> victim. Of course, yes.<19> Q. When you arrived on Well Hall Road on the night<20> of the 22nd how many victims were you aware of?<21> A. One.<22> Q. Were you aware of any eye witnesses to the<23> incident itself?<24> A. Not upon my immediate arrival. I cannot<25> remember seeing -- as I said, I cannot remember

. P-1216

< 1> seeing anyone else there on that night.< 2> Q. When did you first become aware that there was,< 3> in fact, an eye witness?< 4> A. It is difficult to say what time during that< 5> evening I became aware, but I certainly did become< 6> aware at sometime during that evening the someone< 7> that someone had seen the suspects run off into< 8> Dickson Road.< 9> Q. Now, would I be right in suggesting to you that<10> as the senior officer in charge of a scene that<11> speaking to an eye witness would be one of his<12> priorities?<13> A. You are saying that hypothetically, are you?<14> Q. Well, yes, I am speaking about what you have<15> gathered from your past experience?<16> A. Not necessarily, no. If an officer is speaking<17> already with an eye witness and the casualty, as you<18> mentioned earlier, are being dealt with by police<19> officers it does not necessarily follow that you come<20> along stop the officer rendering first aid so you can<21> do it yourself. It does not necessary follow that<22> you would stop a police constable interviewing a<23> witness either. If you arrive and these things seem<24> to be happening or are being done you would let the<25> officers continue with it otherwise there would be --

. P-1217

< 1> the Metropolitan Police would be full of supervisors< 2> and there would be no junior officers. You would not< 3> be able to rely on anybody.< 4> So if arrived on the scene and the officers< 5> appeared to be coping sufficiently well and< 6> adequately you would not intervene, you would not< 7> interrupt what they were doing, no. It is just not< 8> done, no.< 9> Q. Okay. Your assignment, you told us, having<10> arrived, your assignment by Inspector Groves was to<11> carry out a search?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Clearly, there was important information<14> necessary for the effectiveness of that search. For<15> example, first you would want to know how many<16> suspects you were looking for? That is right, is it<17> not?<18> A. Oh, yes, yes.<19> Q. On this occasion you knew four or five white<20> youths?<21> A. Five or six.<22> Q. Five or six white youths. You would also want<23> to know, would you not, how long it was before<24> arrival at the scene that the incident had occurred?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1218

< 1> Q. Did you know that?< 2> A. It is difficult to, you know, to remember< 3> whether or not we were told how long after the< 4> incident we had arrived, but as soon as we received< 5> sufficient information to make a search we left the< 6> scene. We left the scene reasonably quickly, yes.< 7> Q. What information did you have to make the< 8> search?< 9> A. The information I have written in my statements<10> and from the best of my memory is that there were<11> between five and six white youths who had made off on<12> foot into Dickson Road. I cannot comment on any<13> additional times or anything really and give you an<14> honest answer on that.<15> Q. The question of time, was it not important to<16> you in considering the radius of your search?<17> A. As I said, that is important, yes, and if that<18> information comes to you reasonably quickly you<19> certainly consider it when conducting your search, of<20> course.<21> Q. You cannot say whether or not that information<22> was ever given to you?<23> A. As you say, I cannot say whether it was or<24> whether it was not given to me.<25> Q. Can you help us, therefore, as to what area did

. P-1219

< 1> you, in fact, carry out your search? Can we put up< 2> 43, 161.< 3> THE CHAIRMAN: We have gone over this. I am wondering< 4> why the Commission for Racial Equality is pursuing< 5> the same questions we have already had. You will be< 6> careful not to be repetitive, please.< 7> MR YEARWOOD: I am trying to be careful not to be< 8> repetitive. I am trying to make this point which the< 9> adequacy of information given to this officer.<10> Indeed, it will be pursued with Inspector Groves when<11> he comes because, it seems to me, that at the end of<12> the day submissions may well be made based upon what<13> inferences this Inquiry may draw.<14> Now, can you help us, Officer, on the radius,<15> the area of search which you say you carried out?<16> A. Again, it is from memory and, as you can<17> appreciate, is some time after the events. We<18> certainly drove into Dickson Road and around the side<19> streets, Appleton, Windover, that sort of roads and<20> probably searched the Brooks, as you can see at the<21> top of that section, the gridded section, around that<22> area and then back to the location.<23> Q. Did I understand you to say you were back at the<24> scene within -- in fact I think your evidence was<25> less than 15 minutes?

. P-1220

< 1> A. Yes.< 2> Q. Basically, what it came to was a quick drive< 3> around?< 4> A. A quick mobile search of the area, yes.< 5> Q. The other information which might have been< 6> helpful to you would have been the directions from< 7> which the assailants came; do you agree with that?< 8> A. Not necessarily, no. I mean, yes, things -- I< 9> mean we went to the Welcome Inn because I thought<10> that may be a pub they may have used and come from<11> there. So where they come from may be of some help<12> but not vitally important, no.<13> Q. That was precisely the question, the reason I<14> was coming on to because, presumably, in going to the<15> Welcome Inn that was based on the assumption that<16> assailants may have come from that direction?<17> A. It was not necessarily even an assumption. It<18> was just -- I thought it may be a reasonable idea to<19> go and ask in the Welcome Inn because it is the<20> nearest pub to the vicinity and no-one had indicated<21> and I had received, from what I can remember, no<22> indication that they had come down Well Hall Road<23> from the Welcome Inn. We just went there because it<24> was the nearest public house.<25> Q. If one goes in the opposite direction towards

. P-1221

< 1> the roundabout, am I right that there is, in fact, a< 2> cinema and shopping parade just off that roundabout?< 3> A. You absolutely right, yes.< 4> Q. Did you search that area?< 5> A. We did not.< 6> Q. Presumably, had you known that it was to be said< 7> that these assailants had crossed Rochester Road it< 8> would have been more towards the bottom of the< 9> Well Hall Road that would have been searched rather<10> than the top which takes you in the direction of the<11> Welcome Inn?<12> A. When you say "searched" do you mean the mobile<13> search? Is that what we are talking about.<14> Q. Precisely?<15> A. We drove to the Welcome Inn, but I did not<16> search those roads heading north. We just drove<17> directly up Well Hall Road to the Welcome Inn and<18> visited the pub. We didn't, you know -- I did not<19> actually search the area in the vicinity of the<20> Welcome Inn, but I take your point. Had we have been<21> informed or I had been aware at that time that the<22> suspects had come from, as you say, from the south,<23> perhaps we would have extended our search for<24> witnesses and the suspects in that direction.<25> Q. In that direction?

. P-1222

< 1> A. In that direction, yes.< 2> Q. Clearly, that may well have been helpful in one,< 3> not only identifying those who were involved, but it< 4> may be evidence of association of the group itself?< 5> A. Yes, I agree, yes.< 6> Q. The group was clearly coming from somewhere and< 7> to locate that would be considerably helpful?< 8> A. It would have been, but the purpose of that< 9> search initially was to look for those suspects and<10> as you said, time was of the essence and as I said<11> someone can run in 10 to 15 seconds they can run 100<12> metres and for us to linger longer at the scene than<13> was absolutely necessary, we knew what direction they<14> had gone in, we knew that there were 5 or 6 white<15> youths and they had run up Dickson Road and the<16> purpose of our search was to look as quickly as we<17> could for those suspects before they got any further<18> way from the location and that watts purpose of that<19> search really.<20> Q. Can I finally ask you this on this particular<21> subject: The Welcome Inn Public House, was that a<22> public house that was known to you before the night<23> of 22nd April 1993?<24> A. I know the pub, but it is not a troublesome pub<25> I don't think. They have a club on the side and they

. P-1223

< 1> used to have a disco and that is as much as I know.< 2> If you are suggesting it was a racially -- a pub< 3> visited by the racists I would say it is not known< 4> for that, no.< 5> Q. I am making no such suggestion, I am simply< 6> asking you the questions. You say it has, as far as< 7> you are aware, no racist connections?< 8> A. It has none.< 9> Q. Can I turn please to the more general<10> experiences as a police officer. In April 1993 you<11> were part of what was described as to Commissioner's<12> Reserve which was assigned Area 3?<13> A. That is the case, yes.<14> Q. As I understand it that unit was manned by one<15> inspector, 3 sergeants, 21 constables?<16> A. At the minimum strength on the Commissioner's<17> Reserve, yes.<18> Q. As far as Area 3 was concerned at that period of<19> time, it is right there were no black officers<20> assigned to Area 3?<21> A. At a later time there may have been. At that<22> time I would say, no, I don't think so.<23> Q. How long, come April of 1993, had you been part<24> of the Commissioner's Reserves?<25> A. I think I had been there 3 or 4 years, 4 years I

. P-1224

< 1> think.< 2> Q. Of those 3 or 4 years was it always in the< 3> capacity as a sergeant?< 4> A. It was, yes.< 5> Q. In those 3 or 4 years were there any black< 6> officers who served as part of the Commissioner's< 7> Reserve?< 8> A. Yes.< 9> Q. From what part, would you say, of those 3 or 4<10> years?<11> A. It is hard to work out time spans, et cetera,<12> one perhaps 2 years.<13> Q. How many officers are we speaking of during that<14> period?<15> A. I think we had 100 officers on the TSG.<16> Q. Did they fall directly underneath your command<17> at any one stage?<18> A. No.<19> Q. Would it be right that the officers are divided<20> up into units, as it were?<21> A. Teams.<22> Q. Teams. These teams are kept together for fairly<23> lengthy period of times; is that right?<24> A. Generally speaking, yes.<25> Q. Would I therefore be right in suggesting that

. P-1225

< 1> the team of which you were a part of over that period< 2> of time was exclusively a white team, would that be< 3> right?< 4> A. That is right.< 5> Q. As far as association with black people are< 6> concerned, I want to ask you few questions about< 7> that: Do you have any black friends?< 8> A. I do.< 9> Q. Are these people you meet at work?<10> A. Some at work; some come to my house; some I go<11> out and drink with; others I play sport with and my<12> children also have black friends.<13> Q. As part of your job as a first line --<14> A. Supervisor.<15> Q. A first line response unit, that is what I was<16> looking for, often presumably you come into contact<17> with youths, no doubt of both colours, black and<18> white?<19> A. Yes.<20> Q. Does it also fall frequently part of your duty<21> to stop and search youths on the road?<22> A. It does, yes.<23> Q. What I would like to ask you about is the<24> proportions you come across. In respect of stop and<25> search, what would you say, percentage wise, were the

. P-1226

< 1> number of black youths that you have had cause to< 2> stop and search?< 3> A. It is difficult to comment on percentages, it is< 4> very difficult. What I would say to is, on the TSG< 5> we were posted to different areas. If a particular< 6> area had say a problem with motor vehicle crime,< 7> street robbery or burglary, they would apply for the< 8> TSG because when we are Commissioner's Reserve we are< 9> still required to patrol the streets on the area and<10> only respond to calls of public disorder when we are<11> directed by the information room, so we would, we may<12> be patrolling Peckham for a month, Greenwich for a<13> month, Bexley Heath, Orpington whichever, so it<14> varied the proportion of black youths, as you put it,<15> that were possibly stopped.<16> Q. You say it varied, officer, I am not expecting<17> you to be precise with this, you have 3 to 4 years<18> experience of patrolling the streets as part of the<19> TSG. What proportion, do you say it is 20% of stop<20> and searches, 5%, 50%, what percentage would you say<21> of your stopping people for the purpose of stop and<22> search are black?<23> A. We were posted to Peckham the majority of times,<24> we patrol at Peckham a lot, so I would say the<25> percentage of black youths stopped and searched if

. P-1227

< 1> the grounds were there was reasonably high, probably< 2> 40%, something like that.< 3> Q. You were also posted in Woolwich?< 4> A. Did you say Woolwich?< 5> Q. Yes. What was the percentage in the Woolwich< 6> area?< 7> A. We were really posted to Plumstead, not the< 8> Woolwich division, it is difficult to say what< 9> percentage, but we certainly were not motivated by<10> stopping vehicles and suspects by their colour if<11> that is what you are suggesting.<12> Q. What percentage of those who were stopped and<13> searched in the Peckham area resulted in arrest and<14> charge?<15> A. I cannot say, it would just be a wild guess. I<16> cannot say, I did not take -- I am not aware of any<17> statistics, I do not linger on statistics either. I<18> cannot really help you, I cannot say, it would a wild<19> guess.<20> Q. As a general proposition would you accept this:<21> that the proportion in respect of black accused was<22> substantially higher than that in respect of white<23> accused leading on to a charge?<24> A. If you are saying that is the case I would<25> accept it, yes.

. P-1228

< 1> Q. You would accept it?< 2> A. Yes.< 3> Q. That would line up with your general experience< 4> as part of a mobile first response unit?< 5> A. You ask this question about stopping and< 6> searching and, I mean, it may line up, I cannot< 7> really say. Generally speaking, the amount of people< 8> that were charged that were arrested I cannot say< 9> were more higher in respect of black people than<10> white. I could not really honestly comment on that.<11> THE CHAIRMAN: One or two more questions, and then I<12> think we will stop, Mr Yearwood, you have had good<13> time.<14> MR YEARWOOD: As part of your training as a police<15> officer, have you ever had cause to attend a race<16> awareness course?<17> A. Many courses, yes.<18> Q. The courses which you have attended, were they<19> courses as part of your training as a constable or<20> was this later on when you advanced in rank?<21> A. Later.<22> Q. When you say "later", was it part of your<23> training as a police sergeant?<24> A. No it was not, no. It was additional training<25> after I had become a sergeant.

. P-1229

< 1> Q. I see.< 2> A. And after I had have been a sergeant some 8< 3> years then the training really began then.< 4> Q. Was it training on from sergeant to inspector?< 5> A. No.< 6> Q. The training which you underwent, is it a< 7> compulsory part of your training as an officer or was< 8> it something that was done voluntarily by you?< 9> A. The Metropolitan Police Service, as you know,<10> has a policy on equality and some years ago there<11> were a number of courses, and in fact the courses<12> probably still continue now, that were made available<13> and officers, supervisors were instructed to go on<14> these courses. I personally have been on probably 4<15> or 5. I am not suggesting that I was in need of<16> additional training, I am just saying that is the<17> case.<18> Q. You say they were made available, what I am<19> asking you is was it a compulsory part of your<20> training as police officer that you had to go on the<21> course or was this something that you did<22> voluntarily?<23> A. A number of the courses were compulsory, but<24> others were voluntarily -- I went on voluntarily.<25> Q. The compulsory courses which you went on, can

. P-1230

< 1> you tell us something about how long did the course< 2> last?< 3> A. I cannot remember really, it is difficult to< 4> say. I mean, it may have been a two-day course or< 5> one-day courses, yes, as well.< 6> Q. The affect, as it were, at the end of the day,< 7> are you conscious of any changes within yourself< 8> having gone on such a course?< 9> A. No, not really. I have never been a racist and<10> never will be. The contents of the courses were<11> useful. You take in the information and you hear<12> stories of discrimination and you are also<13> instructed, particularly on the action you would be<14> expected to take and you also consider that the<15> individuals who may have been in breach of the policy<16> were in need themselves of training in this area and<17> so a number of things were passed on and it was, they<18> were useful, yes, they were good, some were good and<19> some were poor courses, and of course I took<20> information in and if you take information in you<21> change, you know. I certainly learnt on those<22> courses, yes.<23> Q. You say you change, you are not conscious of<24> exactly in what way you change?<25> A. Yes possibly, yes. You take on information, you

. P-1231

< 1> hear things that perhaps you disagree with or you< 2> agree with and you bear those in mind at a later time< 3> and of course you change, yes, we all change.< 4> Q. Have you come across any racist behaviour within< 5> the police force?< 6> A. No.< 7> Q. You have never had cause in anyway, you have< 8> never been present when any fellow officer, be it< 9> junior or senior rank, has been racist in any way?<10> A. Certainly not. In the past when I was a young<11> constable I never saw any racist behaviour or<12> comments made to any individuals then, although you<13> had the feeling that certain officers may well have<14> had racial tendencies, but that was years ago. The<15> policy is so strong through the Metropolitan Police<16> Service now that those people are not tolerated, that<17> sort of behaviour just does not occur now and I have<18> not seen it now.<19> Q. What was it about their behaviour, you will<20> understand the difficulties in establishing racism,<21> what was it about those officers behaviour in the<22> past that led to you suspect they may well have held<23> racist views?<24> A. I am talking about 20 years ago, it is difficult<25> to recall.

. P-1232

< 1> Q. What was about their behaviour?< 2> A. Perhaps the odd comment, something like that,< 3> that may have given you inference about their< 4> behaviour, but that was a long, long time ago. As I< 5> have said, the policy that the Metropolitan Police< 6> has now and the recruitment of individuals et cetera,< 7> for which I am concerned as well, into the police< 8> service has changed so much that, you know, it is not< 9> tolerated, it just does not happen.<10> Q. Can I finally just ask you this one question<11> taking you back to the night of 22nd April: Did you<12> ever reach a conclusion as to whether indeed the<13> attack upon Stephen Lawrence was racist?<14> A. On the night?<15> Q. No, just generally. Let us deal with it and<16> then we will ascertain when?<17> A. Yes.<18> Q. When did you first come to that conclusion?<19> A. Probably the next day at the briefing.<20> Q. On the night itself that was not a consideration<21> which entered your mind?<22> A. It was a consideration, but not a conclusion.<23> Q. One other conclusion which I have asked to<24> consider is this: Had any decision been reached as to<25> whether indeed the assailants were local?

. P-1233

< 1> A. Can you repeat the question?< 2> Q. Had it been part of the thought process that the< 3> assailants were local?< 4> A. A number of -- if are you talking my thought< 5> processes, a number of thoughts go through your< 6> head. As you said we searched side road where we had< 7> been told they run off, we then saw the vehicle, so a< 8> number of thoughts would go through your mind on that< 9> night. They may not be local and they have arrived<10> on the scene in a vehicle perhaps, so then you<11> consider they are not necessarily local. It is<12> difficult to say. Were the suspects driving past in<13> a vehicle on their way to somewhere totally different<14> and had seen the two lads at the bus stop, you know,<15> a number of thoughts would go through your head and<16> as far as saying that were they just local, that was<17> one of the thoughts, yes.<18> Q. Finally this, I think you told us, your evidence<19> is that you searched the east side of Well Hall Road,<20> you knocked on doors that night; is that right?<21> A. That is what it says on my statement.<22> Q. The east side, just be to be sure, that would<23> have been the same side on which Stephen Lawrence<24> would have<25> lay?

. P-1234

< 1> A. Yes, that's right.< 2> Q. Did you ever knock on 318 that night?< 3> A. I cannot remember if I did that night.< 4> THE CHAIRMAN: 318.< 5> MR YEARWOOD: 318, as I understand it, is the house< 6> right next to where Stephen Lawrence fell?< 7> A. I cannot remember if I knocked on that< 8> particular door or if anybody else did.< 9> THE CHAIRMAN: We know that nobody did.<10> MR YEARWOOD: I am obliged, sir.<11> THE CHAIRMAN: We will have a break until 11.45.<12> (A Short Adjournment)<13> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR GOMPERTZ<14> Q. Sergeant Clement, there has been a remark made<15> on the fact that the tag sheets for this night are no<16> longer extant. Can we look and see what other<17> documentation there is? Could we have PCA 43 at<18> page 37. Now, can you see that on the screen?<19> A. I can, yes.<20> Q. Is it an extract from the occurrence book of the<21> TSG?<22> A. It appears to be, yes.<23> Q. Do you recognise a signature underneath the<24> first entry?<25> A. That is my signature, yes.

. P-1235

< 1> Q. Let us see what it says: "On duty 4 p.m. Patrol< 2> RG section", is that right?< 3> A. That is Greenwich Division, yes.< 4> Q. Thank you. "Four arrests made." Then< 5> remuneration of the 4 carriers. "Then engaged in< 6> murder incident RA section." That is what we are< 7> talking about, is it not?< 8> A. The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, yes.< 9> Q. CAD 8921. "Assisted in cordons and search of<10> scene and nearby streets"?<11> A. That is what I have written there, yes.<12> Q. Is that an entry that you made at the time, soon<13> afterwards or what is the position?<14> A. That would be at the end of our tour of duty on<15> our return as was (inaudible) our base at Lee Road<16> and which team were required to make an entry. So<17> that the senior officers coming on duty the next<18> morning could have a very pretty basic idea as to<19> what we had been doing.<20> Q. Can we go to the next page, please, page 38.<21> Can you go up to the top of the page. Is that<22> another entry that you made?<23> A. It is, yes.<24> Q. For the next day, is it, on duty 10 am; is that<25> right?

. P-1236

< 1> A. Yeah, I cannot see the date but, presumably, it< 2> is.< 3> Q. There is not a date shown on that extract: "On< 4> duty 10 am engaged house-to-house inquiries, re< 5> Lawrence murder at RA"?< 6> A. Yes, that is correct, yes.< 7> Q. Retained or detained on duty until 11.30 p.m. at< 8> RAS standby for some other operation?< 9> A. Yes.<10> Q. You sign that. Thank you.<11> Secondly, the reference has already been made to<12> the actions, so can we go back to that. In MET 82 at<13> page 82, please. We see that that is action 20 and I<14> think it was put up principally in relation to the<15> Vauxhall Astra which appears underneath, but if we go<16> down the page, please, we can see there is a list of<17> TSG personnel who were present at the scene; is that<18> right? Members of the TSG were present at the<19> scene. They were and they are all set out?<20> A. Yes, that's right, yes.<21> Q. Then there is a summary, is there not, of what<22> was done: "The TSG searched Dickson Road up to the<23> end. Cobbett Road to No 2, Downman Road to No 22,<24> Phineas-Pett Road to number 13, Sandby Green to<25> No 47", then there is an entry about clothing and so

. P-1237

< 1> on which I need not ask you about. If we look at< 2> what is on the screen at the moment: "Actions as< 3> follows, No 6." Is that: "Take statements from all< 4> TSG officers?< 5> A. It looks that way, yes. That is what it< 6> suggests.< 7> Q. Yes. Fair enough. Does that entry, it is only< 8> a summary of course, does that accord with your< 9> recollection of what happened so far as searching was<10> concerned?<11> A. Yes.<12> Q. Can I ask you about door knocking and<13> house-to-house enquiries. In your mind is there a<14> distinction between house-to-house enquiries, more<15> properly called door knocking, on the night of the<16> event or immediately after the event, whether it is<17> night or day, in order to obtain information, if<18> possible, which may assist in an immediate search or<19> something of that sort and systematic house-to-house<20> enquiries which are usually started sometime after<21> the event?<22> A. A very distinct difference, yes.<23> Q. Yes. I do not want to ask you to look at<24> house-to-house enquiry forms but if you are<25> conducting house-to-house enquiries you are provided,

. P-1238

< 1> are you not, with the necessary paperwork and you< 2> complete quite a lot of detail on each form relating< 3> to each address visited?< 4> A. If the occupants are in it is quite time< 5> consuming, yes, a lot of details.< 6> Q. Supposing you go to a house and there are, as a< 7> matter of argument, four people, all adults, in the< 8> house whose particulars have to be recorded and who< 9> have to be asked where they were at the relevant time<10> and whether they saw anybody and all that kind of<11> enquiry that would be made, that would be the right,<12> would it not?<13> A. Yes.<14> Q. Roughly, how long would a house visit of that<15> kind take on the assumption that it was entirely<16> negative, that nobody saw anything of any real value?<17> A. Probably anywhere between 20 minutes and perhaps<18> half an hour.<19> Q. Yes. Obviously, if there was information being<20> given which was of any apparent value it would take<21> considerably longer?<22> A. It would, yes.<23> Q. That is the position so far as formal<24> house-to-house enquiries are concerned. The practice<25> in 1993, at any rate, on the night of an incident

. P-1239

< 1> such as that with which we are concerned in this< 2> Inquiry, would have been to simply to knock on doors< 3> and see whether there was any instantly available< 4> information as to whether anybody heard anything, saw< 5> anything, could give any information as to where the< 6> suspects went, matters of that kind?< 7> A. That is what we were after, yes.< 8> Q. Your input on that aspect of matters was< 9> confined to what area, can you tell us?<10> A. As you call it, the door knocking was Well Hall<11> Road, yes.<12> Q. Do you know whether other officer carried out or<13> attempted to carry out any similar function in<14> Dickson Road?<15> A. I am not aware, no.<16> Q. All right. I will not take it any further with<17> you. I will deal with it with others.<18> Well, now at the beginning of your questioning<19> by Mr Kamlish last week he put to you a series of<20> propositions. May I summarise them for you again:<21> that you did not get to the scene when you claimed<22> that you did; that you did not carry out the early<23> searches in the way that you claimed, or at all; that<24> you did not make thorough enquiries at the scene;<25> that you did not go to the Welcome Inn and then a

. P-1240

< 1> compendious suggestion that other parts of your< 2> evidence from the scene were not accepted. Have you< 3> lied to this Inquiry in any way, Sergeant Clement?< 4> A. Certainly not.< 5> Q. Obviously, anybody can be mistaken and we can< 6> look at one possible area of mistake in just a< 7> moment, but have you deliberately attempted in any< 8> shape or form either now or earlier to the Kent< 9> Inquiry or, indeed, when you made your initial<10> statement very soon after these events -- have you in<11> any way attempted to mislead or deceive any person?<12> A. Certainly not. I've done everything and did<13> everything to assist in the Inquiry.<14> Q. Did you arrive in Well Hall Road before or after<15> the ambulance?<16> A. Before.<17> Q. How can you be sure about that?<18> A. Stephen Lawrence was still laying on the<19> pavement upon our arrival. I am absolutely -- that<20> is the case. I am absolutely certain of that. We<21> then quickly left the location to search for the<22> suspects.<23> Q. Yes, well ----<24> A. Upon our return he had gone, so presumably he<25> had been taken by an ambulance.

. P-1241

< 1> Q. We will come on to the mobile search in just a< 2> moment. You have given evidence that the carrier< 3> that you were on was U 326, am I right?< 4> A. That is right.< 5> Q. Do you recollect now the other personnel on that< 6> carrier when you went to Well Hall Road?< 7> A. I have seen documentation, et cetera. I am< 8> aware of those officers, yes.< 9> Q. Yes. Obviously, the one with whom we are<10> principally concerned is Inspector Groves. What do<11> you say about his presence or absence on U 326 when<12> you went to Well Hall Road?<13> A. We were together on uniform 326.<14> Q. Do have you any doubt about that?<15> A. None.<16> Q. How are you able to recollect that so clearly?<17> A. Because of my actions at the time. Myself and<18> Inspector Groves got off the carrier. I remember<19> that very clearly. That is the principle factor we<20> got off the carrier together.<21> Q. Yes. After you had got off the carrier what did<22> Inspector Groves do?<23> A. We both approached the officers where<24> Stephen Lawrence was laying on the pavement. One or<25> either or both of us spoke with the officers and then

. P-1242

< 1> I got back on the carrier and went off. I don't know< 2> what Inspector Groves did after that because< 3> obviously I was not with him.< 4> Q. You were not with him?< 5> A. Not when we made the quick search.< 6> Q. Right. You got back on the carrier. Did< 7> anybody else get off the carrier on the occasion when< 8> you first stopped and when Stephen was still lying on< 9> the pavement?<10> A. I cannot remember, I do not believe so.<11> Q. You have given evidence already about the mobile<12> search, where you went?<13> A. Yes.<14> Q. I am not going to ask you about that again, but<15> there came a time, so you told us, when you went to<16> the Welcome Inn; have you told the truth about that?<17> A. Absolutely, yes.<18> Q. Any reason why you should invent a visit there?<19> A. None whatsoever.<20> Q. How did you travel to the Welcome Inn?<21> A. On our carrier.<22> Q. Was this part of the initial mobile search?<23> A. You could call it that, yes, we did the actual<24> search of the side roads off Dickson Road and then<25> circled around and came up to the Welcome Inn yes, so

. P-1243

< 1> you could say it was part of that search, yes.< 2> Q. It appears from what has been said by< 3> Inspector Groves in the statement, we will have his< 4> evidence later on that he too went to the Welcome Inn< 5> on foot. Were you aware of that on the night?< 6> A. No.< 7> Q. Did you see him in the vicinity of the Welcome< 8> Inn at all?< 9> A. I cannot remember seeing him in the vicinity,<10> no.<11> Q. Having been to the Welcome Inn what was your<12> next activity, do you recollect?<13> A. We returned to the scene and I think from there<14> we did, on Inspector Groves instructions, we did, I<15> think we did search the gardens and a quick search<16> for any evidence, such as a weapon, inside roads off<17> Dickson Road again.<18> Q. You have been questioned at length about<19> searching and I am not going to go into it all over<20> again. What I would like to do is just look at one<21> or two other bits of evidence which may bear on your<22> time of arrival. I don't know whether you know this<23> but the Inquiry is going to call the other persons<24> whom it is thought were on the carrier U326, so I am<25> not going to ask you about their evidence.

. P-1244

< 1> I wonder if we could have Mrs Geddis's statement< 2> put on the screen, please, it is PCA 39 at page 17.< 3> I am told she is going to be called, I did not< 4> realise that.< 5> THE CHAIRMAN: I did not know that. Let us have a< 6> look at it anyway, let us see what she says.< 7> MR GOMPERTZ: That is the beginning of her statement,< 8> if we can go over the page, top of the page, yes,< 9> this is what is said:<10> "The police arrived very quickly, two cars and a<11> carrier. After several minutes one police car went<12> to see what had happened to the ambulance, driving<13> towards the Brook Hospital."<14> Pausing there, the obvious inference is that at<15> that stage the ambulance had not arrived and indeed<16> that is what is said in the next line:<17> "Eventually the ambulance arrived from the<18> Eltham direction and Stephen was removed to<19> hospital."<20> Do you see that?<21> A. Yes, I see that yes.<22> Q. I do not know whether Mr Duwayne Brooks is going<23> to be called or not, but if we can look at another<24> document, LAW 14 at page 74. This is a page from an<25> interview which was conducted by Mr Khan with

. P-1245

< 1> Mr Ratin on the 2nd May, I think I am right in< 2> saying, of Duwayne Brooks of which obviously a full< 3> note was made we see the paragraph near the bottom of< 4> the page is says this, does it not:< 5> "Then police arrived about", I do not know< 6> whether it is 10 or 20 minutes after -- it is 10.< 7> "Then I told them where they had run." Then these< 8> words: "They sent a van down there." Do you see< 9> that?<10> A. Yes.<11> Q. Do you make that out?<12> A. I can see that, yes.<13> Q. Then these words: "Then the ambulance came", it<14> looks like, subject to contribution either 10 or 20<15> minutes after. If that is an accurate account, there<16> is Mr Brooks saying that a van, presumably a TSG<17> carrier, arrived before the ambulance; do you follow<18> Sergeant; does that make sense to you?<19> A. Absolutely.<20> Q. Then we better deal with the CAD message.<21> THE CHAIRMAN: Could you just pause there. We were<22> given the 1994 statement this morning, is that<23> confirmed in that statement, I am not sure -- no, not<24> dealt with in that one, but may be dealt with in any<25> other statement that he makes.

. P-1246

< 1> MR GOMPERTZ: I have not received any other statement.< 2> THE CHAIRMAN: That is a note of what happened only 2< 3> or 3 days after the incident.< 4> MR GOMPERTZ: I believe 2nd May 1993.< 5> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.< 6> MR GOMPERTZ: I was going to ask you about the CAD< 7> message. I hope I have the reference right, PCA 45< 8> at page 332. Do you remember you were asked about< 9> the entries on the bottom line. Do you remember<10> being asked about that by Mr Kamlish just earlier<11> this morning?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. I am sure both he and you know far more about<14> CAD messages than I do, but the suggestion that is<15> made is that according to that message you did not<16> arrive at -- none of the TSG vehicles arrived until<17> 23.45, that is to say a quarter to midnight, getting<18> on for an hour after the time when you are saying<19> that you did arrive; do you follow?<20> A. Yes, I follow that, yes.<21> Q. In asking another witness about these matters<22> and I did put them, although of course Mr Kamlish<23> rightly says you cannot tamper with the times on the<24> CAD machine, a CAD is only as good, is it not, as the<25> provider of information and as good as the person

. P-1247

< 1> operating it who enters that information upon it?< 2> A. That is the case, yes.< 3> Q. Can you remember first of all was it you< 4> personally who provided the information which led to< 5> this entry?< 6> A. No, it was not, it certainly was not me, no.< 7> Q. Under normal circumstances who would have done< 8> that?< 9> A. The information here, I mean, had we been<10> assigned to this incident either one of the other<11> units may have called up or information room may well<12> have called the other units and shown us the site.<13> Q. In short, you cannot say, you do not know whom?<14> A. I don't know why that entry was made on there,<15> no.<16> Q. I suppose that this is a possibility, is it not:<17> that a unit is assigned to a particular location or<18> task, goes there, becomes immediately embroiled in<19> what turns out to be a murder inquiry and that the<20> operator who ought, no doubt, to have dispatched the<21> information as to the time of assignment straightaway<22> does not do so for some considerable period because<23> he forgets to; is that possible?<24> A. Of course, yes.<25> Q. You cannot take that any further today?

. P-1248

< 1> A. No.< 2> MR GOMPERTZ: I have nothing else to ask.< 3> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.< 4> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR MENON< 5> Q. I am simply seeking clarification, I think the< 6> evidence is quite clear. It is to do with the first< 7> sighting of the Astra car. You radio for all cars in< 8> the vicinity and then you see it a second time coming< 9> but there is no hot pursuit by the police?<10> A. That is right, yes.<11> Q. How long did that second sighting take, was it<12> 2 minutes, 5 minutes?<13> A. The delay from the first to the second?<14> Q. Yes, yes.<15> A. It was not very long.<16> Q. Not very long. When you sighted it a second<17> time and you knew they were not being pursued and you<18> radioed it again, would it be reasonable to think<19> that if there were other vehicles in the vicinity,<20> particularly in Well Hall Road, it would have been<21> reasonable to expect them to pursue this particular<22> car knowing that there were 5 youths?<23> A. Yes, if the officers were not employed in other<24> things at the scene, yes, you would expect them to,<25> yes.

. P-1249

< 1> Q. Why did it not happen; why did somebody not< 2> say: "You sitting in the vehicle, get on". 5 youths,< 3> you have seen it twice?< 4> A. I cannot say at this time why it was not done,< 5> presumably there was no vehicles available, perhaps< 6> the vehicles had gone off with the ambulance, it is< 7> hard for me to say, I am speculating really. Had the< 8> opportunity been there to stop this vehicle, we< 9> certainly would have done almost definitely and as I<10> have said in my statement we subsequently saw this<11> vehicle and remembered the index or part index and<12> stopped them the next day.<13> It would have been ideal in an ideal world that<14> vehicle would have been stopped on the night and<15> hopefully or maybe it would have been of great use to<16> us.<17> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY COOK<18> Q. Can I clarify for my own understanding this log<19> entry at 23.45. On the evidence that is given,<20> correct me if I am wrong, the sequence of events may<21> well have been or was that were you not formally<22> assigned to this incident initially, you responded<23> yourself of your own initiative?<24> A. Yes.<25> Q. Has then been caught up in the actions of the

. P-1250

< 1> scene for sometime afterwards, this 23.45 entry is< 2> the formal assignment by the central information room< 3> at Scotland Yard, in effect catching up with reality?< 4> A. I think the chief inspection information room< 5> gives authority for the whole unit to be deployed< 6> from somewhere, so as individual units we answer< 7> calls on the personal radio and on the main set< 8> radio, that is what we did on the night as uniform< 9> 326 we as a single unit responded to the call. It<10> appears later on that the whole unit, all 4 carriers,<11> had been assigned to this incident.<12> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes thank you very much. Thank you<13> sergeant Clement, that ends your evidence. This time<14> you can go and not come back.<15> MR LAWSON: In case there is a misunderstanding on the<16> transcript, I think it was a slip of the tongue when<17> the sergeant in answer to the Bishops referred to<18> stopping the car the next day. The stopping was a<19> week later, the 30th April.<20> THE WITNESS: Yes.<21> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.<22> (The Witness Withdrew)<23> MR LAWSON: The next witness will be Inspector Groves<24> of whom we have heard so much.<25> May I indicate that we seek to call today

. P-1251

< 1> Police Sergeant, as he now is, constable as he was,< 2> Hodges whom Miss Weekes will call. He can only be< 3> with us this afternoon. I have mentioned this to< 4> Mr Mansfield, not I fear to others, I meant no< 5> discourtesy. I gather there is no difficulty about< 6> interposing him to make sure we have his evidence.< 7> THE CHAIRMAN: I hope very much we will be able to< 8> hear the evidence of both these witnesses today and I< 9> do have to say that all of us are a little anxious<10> about a considerable amount of repetition in the<11> questions. The time may come when I may have to<12> ration the time for which people are allowed to<13> cross-examine because the Inquiry must not be<14> endless. Of course the relevant information must<15> elicited. There has been a lot of repetition and I<16> do not want it to happen again. I am sure people<17> with cooperate. If necessary, I will have to<18> allocate and ask to you divide the time for a witness<19> amongst yourselves sensibly in accordance with what<20> you wish to ask, but I hope that will not be<21> necessary.<22> We will have Mr Groves now and interpose<23> Mr Hodges at 2 clock.<24> MR LAWSON: If we could just pause for one moment. It<25> has been suggested to me that Hodges may be here and

. P-1252

< 1> if he is it would obviously be more sensible to hear< 2> him in one go.< 3> MR GOMPERTZ: Yes, he is here.< 4> MR LAWSON: Good. Miss Weeks will call him.< 5> <MR HODGES, (sworn)< 6> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Hodges, would you be< 7> seated. Counsel will ask you questions first of all< 8> on behalf of Inquiry, Miss Weekes will ask you< 9> questions<10> <EXAMINED BY MISS WEEKES<11> Q. Officer Hodges, could I have your rank?<12> A. It is now Police Sergeant, it was previously<13> police constable on the TSG.<14> Q. In 1993 what was it?<15> A. Police Constable, sir.<16> Q. You have recently been requested to come to the<17> Inquiry. Can I just check, have you had an<18> opportunity to read your original statements and have<19> you been told the issues that you made be asked<20> about?<21> A. I have read my original statement.<22> Q. Have you been told ----<23> A. I have been told briefly why I am here, yes.<24> Q. Can I have up on the screen your original 1993<25> statement at PCA 38, 230. I hope that is right. Do

. P-1253

< 1> you have that on the screen?< 2> A. Yes, I have.< 3> Q. Is that right, would that have been your first< 4> statement about your actions on the day, 22/4/93?< 5> A. I believe so, yes.< 6> Q. Can I just note that that is dated 1st May 1993?< 7> A. Yes, 1/5/93, yes.< 8> Q. It would not necessarily have been a statement< 9> that you made on the day or immediately after the<10> events?<11> A. I believe this would have been the first one,<12> there might be one slightly in between, I cannot say.<13> Q. This one that does record your action on the day<14> appears to be dated 1st May, not immediately after<15> the events?<16> A. No, some days afterwards.<17> Q. As this is a public inquiry it might help if we<18> understand what this particular group of vans were<19> doing in the area. You were patrolling quite<20> properly, part of your duty.<21> A. Yes.<22> Q. What is the purpose of these vans when they<23> patrol an area?<24> A. (Inaudible) crime patrol often we will be called<25> to an area, division, to help with a drugs problem or

. P-1254

< 1> a motor vehicle theft, things like that, to assist< 2> the local division.< 3> Q. We know that on that day you were not< 4> specifically called out for this incident, you had< 5> already been in the area?< 6> A. That is right, yes, we were already patrolling< 7> in the area, we just took the call.< 8> Q. Can you help now, I appreciate it is a very long< 9> time ago, but had you been called out specifically<10> for something else because it is the Greenwich,<11> Eltham area?<12> A. Not that I recall, we were on patrol as normal<13> and we responded to an emergency call.<14> Q. It is unit 236.<15> A. Yes.<16> Q. I want to ask you two other general questions<17> about these vans. They have for good reason the<18> requirement that you carry a tag record?<19> A. Yes an incident sheet of who was on the carrier.<20> Q. Help about that sort of record, it sounds as if<21> it is police jargon, but you call a tag record?<22> A. I have never actually known why it is called<23> that. I just know it is a sheet which we record<24> details on for the purposes of showing what we did<25> that day, a record of our work.

. P-1255

< 1> Q. It makes good common sense for records to be< 2> made?< 3> A. Yes, it does help in lots of ways.< 4> Q. Help us, what purpose would there be to keep< 5> record?< 6> A. It can show what we have done for the day. It< 7> is also a note to refer back on, sometimes you have a< 8> book if you want to look back on what has happened on< 9> the previous day, car indexes, nature of the calls,<10> you can just refer back to your book and see what is<11> going on.<12> THE CHAIRMAN: The officer is speaking very very<13> quickly and just a light pause between questions and<14> answers is a good idea because everything has to be<15> recorded and just speak a little slower so we can all<16> take it in. The shorthand writers are marvellous,<17> but there are limits.<18> MS WEEKES: I will pause before my next question.<19> The kind of important detail would be who is in<20> the carrier?<21> A. That is correct, yes.<22> Q. Where you are called out to?<23> A. What calls are taken and where we had gone, yes.<24> Q. Why you would go to a particular area?<25> A. It would just be the nature of the call, you

. P-1256

< 1> wouldn't actually put why, it would just be the call.< 2> Q. And if you are asked to stop or search you would< 3> record that as well?< 4> A. It is up to us. If we decided to stop somebody< 5> or search them you would put the details of the car,< 6> the persons of which you stopped.< 7> Q. If you stopped and searched an area you would< 8> put that in the tag record?< 9> A. Not necessarily, you would say you would be<10> called to an incident.<11> Q. I do not know whether you know, but did anybody<12> fill out the tag record for your van that night?<13> A. I would have thought so, yes, the operator of<14> the vehicle.<15> Q. As far as you would have thought, who was the<16> operator who was responsible for filling out that tag<17> record?<18> A. From my memory I can't remember who was the<19> operator on that evening. The operator is the person<20> who sits next to the driver in the front seat.<21> Q. You have no record of who that was?<22> A. I personally haven't.<23> Q. No recollection either?<24> A. None whatsoever.<25> Q. You have read your statement. Have you had a

. P-1257

< 1> chance to reflect as to who was in the van that< 2> night?< 3> A. I have tried to remember and I cannot remember< 4> who was the operator on that evening.< 5> Q. Do you remember who was the driver because we< 6> might be able to guess who was sitting next to the< 7> driver?< 8> THE CHAIRMAN: I think you are both going at exactly< 9> the same speed. You will have to put the brakes on a<10> little.<11> MISS WEEKES: Try and help us, who was the driver?<12> A. I can't be 100%, but it might have been PC<13> McGary.<14> Q. It might have been McGary. Were these men<15> personnel that you were used to working with?<16> A. Yes, they were.<17> Q. Men you know well?<18> A. Yes.<19> Q. You had been on duty with them a number of<20> years?<21> A. Yes, some of them.<22> Q. Would not this night have stuck in your memory<23> because it became quite high profile and a lot of<24> publicity about it thereafter?<25> A. There has been a lot of publicity, but I

. P-1258

< 1> certainly don't remember the full crew. The reason< 2> for that being maybe each of the team members< 3> normally stayed on the same bus each night, but from< 4> my recollection that night it was made up of several< 5> different members to get the full carrier.< 6> Q. You do arrive in the vicinity of Well Hall Road< 7> at some point?< 8> A. Yes.< 9> Q. You are going to be asked about times by others,<10> but I want to move on if I may. I f we can scroll<11> down slightly to the point in your statement where<12> you recalled this:<13> "We realised there was nothing we could do at<14> the scene."<15> Could you help us as to who the "we" is?<16> A. Myself and the other officers in the carrier, I<17> assume that is what I meant by that statement.<18> Q. You assume that is what you meant?<19> A. Yes, there was nothing I could do at that time.<20> There were people attending to Mr Lawrence. There<21> was nothing I felt I could do there and then, I could<22> be used better doing something else.<23> Q. All you record in the statement is saying that<24> you saw several police officers, a body on the ground<25> and a lot of blood?

. P-1259

< 1> A. Yes.< 2> Q. You remain on the carrier?< 3> A. No, I think Mr Groves and Sergeant Clements went< 4> off the carrier and after they were off --< 5> Q. My question was you remained on the carrier?< 6> A. No, I got off the carrier.< 7> Q. Does it say so?< 8> A. No, but I must have done because I went to the< 9> Welcome Inn.<10> Q. I am dealing with the point that you saw the<11> body on the ground. We will come to the Welcome in a<12> moment?<13> A. I believe I got off the carrier at that point.<14> Q. We do not see a record of that in your<15> statement?<16> A. No.<17> Q. You are absolutely right you must have got off<18> the carrier because you then left to search the area?<19> A. I left and went to the Welcome Inn with Mr<20> Groves.<21> Q. Can I deal with "we then left to search the<22> area"?<23> A. That is what I did. I got on foot and went to<24> the pub to make enquiries.<25> Q. You have no description of the suspects at the

. P-1260

< 1> time?< 2> A. None at all.< 3> Q. Help us, who were you looking for?< 4> A. I was just trying to make enquiries at the scene< 5> and we went to the public house. I didn't know< 6> whether there had been any disturbance there. It was< 7> a place where there might have been trouble and we< 8> went to see if anyone had seen anything.< 9> Q. You agree it would have helped you in your<10> search had you known that there were 5 or 10, that<11> they were black or white?<12> A. It would have done, any description would have<13> been helpful.<14> Q. Yes. Inspector Groves did not help you with any<15> information?<16> A. He didn't----<17> UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Again the shorthand writer is<18> having difficulty.<19> THE CHAIRMAN: You speak like a machine gun. A<20> Substantial pause between questions may be necessary<21> I think, but do try to slow down please, Sergeant.<22> (Pause).<23> Now calmly and slowly otherwise we will never<24> get anywhere, right.<25> MS WEEKES: I will try to remember to pause which may

. P-1261

< 1> help. Can I go back to my question of your search< 2> without any descriptions of any form at all, that is< 3> right?< 4> A. That is correct, yes.< 5> Q. You did not have a description of any weapon< 6> that might have been used?< 7> A. In relation to that, the call, the emergency< 8> call I remember as being a man hit over the head with< 9> an iron bar, that is what I can say in relation to a<10> weapon.<11> Q. So that it is clear, your understanding is that<12> Inspector Groves and yourself went off to search with<13> nothing more than man hit over the head with an iron<14> bar?<15> A. That is correct, yes.<16> Q. Did you think of asking anybody, can anybody<17> help with suspects?<18> A. I did not see anybody else there at that stage<19> at that time.<20> Q. You had arrived and seen a number of police<21> officers?<22> A. Yes, that is correct.<23> Q. You did not ask anybody about descriptions of<24> suspects yourself?<25> A. I would have heard it on the radio. If there

. P-1262

< 1> had been anything to tell me I would have heard it or< 2> I would have been told.< 3> Q. Yes. Before you go to search you personally did< 4> not ask anyone for a description of suspects?< 5> A. No.< 6> Q. No. I want to move on to the Astra car?< 7> THE CHAIRMAN: Can you scroll up the statement.< 8> MS WEEKES: Before turning to the statement, can I ask< 9> you this, it is clear that you were the first person<10> to have seen that car?<11> A. I saw the car. I cannot say whether others did<12> see it but didn't say anything, I did see the car and<13> indicated to Sergeant Clements.<14> Q. Your reason for telling Sergeant Clements was<15> because you thought this was suspicious, it may be<16> important?<17> A. Yes.<18> Q. Did you carry a radio that night?<19> A. If I had carried a radio -- no, I did not. If I<20> had carried a radio I could have done it myself. If<21> I can explain why I didn't have a radio.<22> Q. Is it usual for occupants of this type of van,<23> patrol van, to carry radios?<24> A. Not everybody because at that time there were<25> not sufficient radios to give everyone a radio, so

. P-1263

< 1> you would have one between two.< 2> Q. So there was a shortage of radios, were there?< 3> A. Yes, in a word, yes.< 4> Q. You had to share a radio between two officers on< 5> that shift that night?< 6> A. Yes.< 7> Q. Is it usual to share a radio?< 8> A. The type of radios we were issued with were PFX< 9> radios which meant you can tune into different<10> stations, different divisions, and there just weren't<11> enough radios at that time to give everybody a<12> personal radio.<13> On normal division you each get issued with a<14> personal radio. It was different on the TSG at that<15> time. I do not know what the procedures are at the<16> moment with the TSG.<17> Q. You would have to make sure you walk off on a<18> search with a colleague with a radio?<19> A. You do not have to make sure. It is handy to<20> have one, but if you do not have a radio you do not<21> have a radio. You do what you got.<22> Q. It means you might miss something quite vital if<23> you have not got a radio to radio through to?<24> A. What do you mean "might miss something", sorry?<25> Q. If you saw an Astra car and you were both on

. P-1264

< 1> that part of the car and neither of you had a radio< 2> it would be hard to get it stopped?< 3> A. Yes, it would.< 4> Q. Luckily one of your colleagues did have a radio,< 5> Clement?< 6> A. That's correct.< 7> Q. Did you see physically yourself see him radio< 8> through with the details that you had given to him?< 9> A. I cannot remember that, but I him and I cannot<10> see any reason why he would not have done.<11> Q. I would like you to help a little more if you<12> can. Were you both standing together on that part of<13> the road where you saw the Astra?<14> A. I do not think we were standing together. I<15> cannot remember exactly where Sergeant Clement was.<16> He must have been nearby for me to have been able to<17> shout to him -- to indicate to him details of a car.<18> Q. Do you now have a recollection that he spoke<19> into his radio immediately after your message to him?<20> A. I do not remember it, but I am sure he did do<21> it. I don't see why he wouldn't have done it. There<22> is no reason for him not to have done it.<23> THE CHAIRMAN: Could you complete the statement.<24> There is no more on the -- yes, that is right.<25> MS WEEKES: I have not actually finished questions

. P-1265

< 1> there on this particular page.< 2> THE CHAIRMAN: No. We can see what his evidence is< 3> and we have seen the picture.< 4> MS WEEKES: You see it again on the second occasion< 5> later on?< 6> A. That is correct, yes.< 7> Q. What is the time difference between the first< 8> sighting and the second sighting?< 9> A. I cannot remember, but it could not have been<10> very long. I would not have thought it was a very<11> long span of time.<12> Q. What is not very long, just help if you can?<13> A. Minutes I should think but, as I say, I cannot<14> remember the exact time between the first and the<15> second sighting.<16> Q. Reading from your statement it says: "I again<17> noticed the red Astra and again attempted to get it<18> stopped." There are no details in that statement of<19> your attempts to get it stopped. What was it that<20> you did?<21> A. I would have tried to get through to somebody on<22> the radio to say that I had seen the car.<23> Q. Which radio?<24> A. Any radio. Any other officer who had a radio.<25> Q. Yes. Did you check after or later or at any

. P-1266

< 1> stage with a senior officer about the message that< 2> you had radioed through or tried to have radioed< 3> through?< 4> A. In what way would I have checked, sorry?< 5> Q. To see if it had got through because what you< 6> saw obviously caused you some concern. You thought< 7> it was important?< 8> A. I did think it was important, yes. That is why< 9> I wanted the vehicle stopped.<10> Q. Did you ask: "What happened to my message?"?<11> A. It would have been passed on. I didn't have to<12> ask Sergeant Clement. I knew he would have done<13> that. I trust him to do that.<14> Q. Who was the senior officer in charge?<15> A. At that point it would have been Mr Groves --<16> Inspector Groves.<17> Q. Did you ask him: "I spotted a red Astra. Did my<18> message get through?"?<19> A. No, I didn't need to.<20> MS WEEKES: Thank you.<21> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR MANSFIELD<22> Q. Mr Hodges, I represent Mr and Mrs Lawrence.<23> Just for convenience can I take up the question of<24> the red car straightaway?<25> A. Sir.

. P-1267

< 1> Q. Could we have a plan, please, which we have been< 2> using quite a lot, which is 45, 181. Could you help< 3> us where were you? Have you got adjusted to the< 4> plan, first of all?< 5> A. Yes, sir.< 6> Q. Where were you when you first saw the red car?< 7> A. From my recollections, it would have been on< 8> here, on the same side of the road where Mr Lawrence< 9> died. Just this side of the cordons -- where we<10> placed the cordons with the plastic tape.<11> Q. So the cordons and plastic tape, do we<12> understand that means the same thing? That is bit of<13> tape you put around the scene?<14> MR GOMPERTZ: I am very sorry to interrupt, but I have<15> no idea whether the witness says he was.<16> THE CHAIRMAN: Do you see Arbroath Road?<17> THE WITNESS: Sir.<18> THE CHAIRMAN: Can you position yourself by reference<19> to that. Were you near the "5" or up near the "H",<20> where, tell us, roughly.<21> THE WITNESS: Wherever the actual scene was where he<22> fell that is whether the tape was exactly on that<23> map. I cannot say where that is.<24> THE CHAIRMAN: I see.<25> THE WITNESS: If you tell me where the actual scene

. P-1268

< 1> -- where the tree is in relation to the map ----< 2> MR MANSFIELD: Well, it is -- there is a small black< 3> dot. Do you see that there?< 4> A. Yes, sir.< 5> Q. It is roughly in that area?< 6> A. Yes, I would have been near to that, as far as I< 7> remember, sir.< 8> Q. When you first saw the red car?< 9> A. Yes, travelling towards the cinema.<10> Q. The cinema is the coronet which is down by the<11> roundabout which is down below where the arrow has<12> gone now, somewhere in that region.<13> Who were you with at the point in time you saw<14> the red car? Was it just Mr Clement or anyone else?<15> A. If I remember rightly, we were on the -- we<16> cordoned that little area off to preserve it and<17> there were other officer there.<18> Q. Other officers?<19> A. I believe it was PC Norrie -- the WPC.<20> Q. So there is Norrie ----<21> A. That all I can remember, sir.<22> Q. There were more beyond that, were there?<23> A. There were other officers, yes, sir.<24> Q. Now, by -- well, I had better ask you this: at<25> the point at which you saw it first, travelling

. P-1269

< 1> towards the roundabout, were you aware of any other< 2> police vehicles in the vicinity?< 3> A. I think only our carrier would have been parked< 4> up, but I cannot say for definite.< 5> Q. Or was there another carrier further down Well< 6> Hall Road but within sight?< 7> A. I cannot remember. There might have been but I< 8> can't remember, sir.< 9> Q. Parked up exactly where this red car was going?<10> A. As I say, sir, I can't remember.<11> Q. You cannot remember, all right. The car, what<12> speed was it doing, roughly?<13> A. 30 miles and hour, not particularly fast.<14> Q. It was doing an average speed down the road --<15> and you have not said it yet but we know on your<16> statement, and I am repeating it so it is, as it<17> were, made public -- the five in the car -- you<18> estimate it to be five in the car?<19> A. Yes.<20> Q. Two in the front, three in the back?<21> A. Yes, sir.<22> Q. You estimated that they were white and that they<23> were male?<24> A. Yes, sir.<25> Q. The reason that they came to your attention

. P-1270

< 1> particularly was because when you first saw them they< 2> were laughing.< 3> A. Yes, sir.< 4> Q. You asked Mr Clement to have the car stopped< 5> because he has a radio?< 6> A. Yes, sir.< 7> Q. Is that right? I want to ask you this, if you< 8> can help: if he uses his radio to get the car stopped< 9> would that radio message end up as a CAD record as<10> well?<11> A. Not necessarily, no. It is not an automatic<12> thing.<13> THE CHAIRMAN: Tag?<14> MR MANSFIELD: CAD I said. Not automatic?<15> A. No.<16> Q. In what circumstance would a call to get this<17> car stopped from Mr Clement amount to or end up as a<18> CAD message?<19> A. Possibly if an officer had got behind the<20> vehicle in another vehicle and it failed to stop.<21> They would have created a CAD message. Just purely<22> on saying: "Can we get it stopped?", I do not think<23> they would have created a CAD. It all depends on the<24> person on the CAD machine.<25> Q. Well, we will move on. The first stage, you

. P-1271

< 1> have seen it first driving off towards the cinema and< 2> as far as you are aware anyway you have put in train< 3> a series of events which should lead to a radio< 4> message to get it stopped?< 5> A. Sir.< 6> Q. Obviously, on the first occasion, do you follow,< 7> you see it and register it and it is too late and it< 8> is gone, right?< 9> A. Sir.<10> Q. However, how long had you been at the scene, do<11> you think, when you saw it for the first time?<12> A. I have no idea, sir. It would have been when I<13> returned from the public house. Approximately half<14> an hour.<15> Q. Half an hour. I am really not pinning you to<16> minutes, I just want a bracket. So within half an<17> hour of you being at the scene, is this a fair way of<18> putting it, within half an hour of being at the scene<19> you first see this red car; is that fair?<20> A. Approximately. It is very hard for me to<21> remember that far back of (inaudible) at that time.<22> Q. It is an appreciable period of time, if you<23> understand, because according to you you have<24> arrived, got out of the carrier and gone to the car<25> and then back again and then started the cordoning?

. P-1272

< 1> A. Sir.< 2> Q. All right. Now, the time between the first< 3> sighting and the second sighting is roughly 5 minutes< 4> or something?< 5> A. I believe a short period of time. Again, I< 6> cannot remember how much time.< 7> Q. But you notice it coming up Well Hall Road< 8> before it reaches you?< 9> A. Yes.<10> Q. There is not a lot of traffic around?<11> A. No.<12> Q. Right. First thing, did any police officer step<13> out into the road to flag it down as police officers<14> regularly do in bus lanes or whatever?<15> A. If I had seen it in such a time to do so I would<16> have done it myself.<17> Q. That was not the question.<18> A. Can I carry on, please?<19> Q. Certainly.<20> A. I saw the car. If I am possibly the only one<21> that had seen that car for the second time, if I did<22> not have time, I don't know if any other officers saw<23> it, how could they have been expected to stop it?<24> Q. I am not asking you that question about how<25> anyone else might stop it. If you pause to think.

. P-1273

< 1> You are now a sergeant?< 2> A. Yes, sir.< 3> Q. If this incident involved a police officer< 4> having been killed, do you follow?< 5> A. Yes, sir.< 6> Q. You would not want the car with the murderers in< 7> an as suspects to drive up and down the scene twice< 8> and then drive away, would you?< 9> A. Sir, if I did not want the car stopped I would<10> not have mentioned it in the first place.<11> Q. Exactly. So I want to know what serious efforts<12> were made at the scene to stop it. I am not being<13> critical of you. You alerted others. You say that<14> you did not have time on the second occasion yourself<15> to flag it down?<16> A. That is correct.<17> Q. Is that what you are saying?<18> A. Yes, sir.<19> Q. Was any officer, did you see, flagging it down?<20> A. No, sir.<21> Q. No. Now, on this occasion it still contains the<22> same number of people, does it, roughly?<23> A. Yes.<24> Q. You are more interested in it now, are you not?<25> A. I am interested in it, yes, because I have seen

. P-1274

< 1> it twice. I think it is suspicious.< 2> Q. Certainly. By this stage you were not in a< 3> position to flag it down and no other offer flagged< 4> it down. Were you ever told by any other officer,< 5> like Mr Clement who you have given the information< 6> to, as you were still continuing taping or whatever< 7> you were doing: "Look, we have a car on its tail."< 8> A. Sorry, sir?< 9> Q. "We have a car on its tail." Did anybody come<10> back and say to you: "We are after that car"?<11> A. No. The vehicle got away, basically.<12> Q. Did you ask any other officer: "Look, what has<13> happened to that car?"?<14> A. I knew it had not been stopped and I knew it had<15> got away. That is all I knew.<16> Q. Now, Mr Groves -- Inspector Groves, did you<17> speak to him at any time about this red car?<18> A. I believe it could have been mentioned at the<19> end of the shift.<20> Q. At the end of the shift?<21> A. Or at the debrief.<22> Q. Debrief. Where did that take place, on the spot<23> or did have you to go back to Lee Road for that?<24> A. I cannot remember, sir. I cannot remember where<25> it was done.

. P-1275

< 1> Q. All right. At the debrief what have you done< 2> during the time of duty at the scene is then give it< 3> over to the senior officer, is it?< 4> A. That was important to be done, especially the< 5> car details.< 6> Q. Especially the car details. Would a record be< 7> kept at the debrief of what each officer had done?< 8> A. I don't know about each officer. Certainly I< 9> think a record would have been kept of what we had<10> done as a whole.<11> Q. As a whole. Who would keep the record at the<12> debrief?<13> A. Who would keep it after it had been handed?<14> Q. No, that is my fault. Who would make the record<15> at the debrief in the first place?<16> A. I imagine Mr Groves did.<17> Q. Mr Groves would keep a debrief, would he --<18> sorry make a debrief. Would he then keep it or hand<19> it over to somebody else?<20> A. I assume that he would have handed it over<21> because at that point we had finished then and all<22> the information should go to (inaudible).<23> Q. I am just trying to identify documentation that<24> might relate to your vehicle. There is a tag record<25> you have dealt with that should be done?

. P-1276

< 1> A. Sir.< 2> Q. And a debrief record should be done?< 3> A. A debrief record is not done everyday.< 4> Q. On this particular day here you are assigned to< 5> a murder scene, you would have expected one on this< 6> day?< 7> A. Mr Groves would have made.< 8> Q. Would have made. Right. Now, just on the< 9> question of records, did you make a record that day?<10> A. Of the car or the whole incident?<11> Q. The whole time of your assignment on this<12> particular task, that is the murder inquiry that<13> night?<14> A. I would have made a note in my pocket book.<15> Q. In your pocket book. Do you know where that is<16> now?<17> A. No, sir.<18> Q. Have you seen it recently?<19> A. No, sir.<20> Q. When did you last see?<21> A. Once the book is emptied it is then sent back<22> for filing on division.<23> Q. Again we have asked if that can be found so far<24> it does not seem to have been found. As far as you<25> are concerned the responsibility of keeping those

. P-1277

< 1> pocket books is whose, somebody at the police station< 2> or?< 3> A. The administration side, once I finish with it< 4> it goes off for filing and whoever deals with the< 5> filing.< 6> Q. Where were you based at that time?< 7> A. At Lee Road Police Station.< 8> Q. So it goes back into Lee Road?< 9> A. It should do.<10> Q. All right. Your statement, perhaps we can just<11> have that back again, 38-230 is dated 1st May, 1993,<12> we will see that at the top, do you see that? When<13> you came to make this statement did you have recourse<14> to any document, that is either a tag record, a<15> CAD record, your own pocket book, a debrief document,<16> when you came to make it?<17> A. I believe it would have been made from my pocket<18> book, my notebook entry.<19> Q. You believe it would be from your pocket book?<20> A. Yes I do not remember any other documentation.<21> Q. Now, it follows, does it, that your pocket book<22> entries did not include, for example, the time you<23> arrived at the scene?<24> A. I cannot remember whether that was in there<25> initially or not.

. P-1278

< 1> Q. It is certainly not in your -- look at the< 2> statement, I do not want to take time over it, but< 3> timing, not to the last second, may be important< 4> here. You have a time of 22.45 about that you were< 5> on duty and you have the Greenwich/Eltham area, do< 6> you follow, then go to the address in Well Hall< 7> Road. I suppose now, you have been asked about this< 8> before, you do not remember exactly where you were< 9> before you got to the scene?<10> A. Before we got to the scene, no, sir.<11> Q. No. You do not remember the route that you got<12> there?<13> A. No.<14> Q. You do not, for example, remember that you may<15> have come along the Rochester Way and up Well Hall<16> Road?<17> A. We would have gone the quickest route, what that<18> would have been I don't remember.<19> Q. All right. Do you normally record at least<20> approximately when you get to the scene, is that not<21> normally something that you would do?<22> A. In what?<23> Q. In a Murder context or and assault context. You<24> heard it was an iron bar incident?<25> A. If I had been the operator of the vehicle then

. P-1279

< 1> you would fill in the time of arrival on your sheet.< 2> Q. Sorry, I am not dealing with the tag record you< 3> kept your pocket book you say?< 4> A. I would you not have put that in.< 5> Q. I want to ask you a little bit about the scene< 6> when you got there, according to you. You say< 7> Stephen Lawrence was still there?< 8> A. Yes.< 9> Q. To be clear you never see and ambulance, do you,<10> at all?<11> A. I didn't. No I did not see an ambulance.<12> Q. You did not see it arrive and you did not see it<13> go?<14> A. No.<15> Q. What you do see, according to the statement, and<16> I want to get clear how you saw it and when you saw<17> it, a large amount of blood around the body. That is<18> the description in the statement. You were still on<19> the carrier at the time you saw that?<20> A. I cannot remember if I was off the carrier or in<21> the carrier but I got off it. I cannot remember at<22> which point I saw the blood.<23> Q. There is no question about that?<24> A. I remember seeing blood, as I have written in my<25> statement, sir.

. P-1280

< 1> Q. Yes. Your description is a large amount. It< 2> would be difficult for somebody to miss a large< 3> amount, would you agree?< 4> A. Yes, sir.< 5> Q. All you had at that time, I want to ask you< 6> carefully for your help on this, is that a man had< 7> been hit over the head with an iron bar?< 8> A. Yes, sir.< 9> Q. Are you sure about that, that is all you knew?<10> A. That is all I remember the call came out as<11> that.<12> Q. Your recollection of this scene does not include<13> seeing another black man in a very agitated state<14> nearby, does it?<15> A. No, sir.<16> Q. No?<17> A. Your description of this scene does not include<18> two civilians, not police officer at the head of<19> Stephen Lawrence at this time?<20> A. That is correct, sir.<21> Q. I want to ask you whether there is any<22> possibility that actually you came back or you<23> arrived just after the ambulance had left and you saw<24> a large amount of blood on the pavement at that<25> point; is there any possibility of that?

. P-1281

< 1> A. No, sir I saw the man lying on the floor,< 2> Mr Lawrence, I saw him there and we went off.< 3> Q. Well, I will come to that as well. I want to< 4> ask you carefully, you see because it is accepted< 5> there were two civilians at the head of Stephen< 6> Lawrence, and more than that, an off duty police< 7> officer, did you see him?< 8> A. I don't remember him, No, sir.< 9> Q. Do you know Mr Geddis?<10> A. No, sir.<11> Q. You do not. A Mr Geddis and Mrs Geddis, did you<12> see her? That is four civilians?<13> A. I don't remember. I put in my statement I saw<14> police officers and then I went off from that scene.<15> Q. I appreciate that. It is four civilians and<16> another one standing up, that is five civilians?<17> A. I don't remember them, sir.<18> Q. You do not remember them?<19> A. No.<20> Q. There was not a lot else going on on the<21> pavement at that time, it was not a crowded pavement,<22> was it?<23> A. No, sir.<24> Q. Well if it is only then, according to you,<25> Stephen Lawrence and a couple of police officers --

. P-1282

< 1> now I appreciate you are not the senior offer at the< 2> scene -- did you think of asking yourself one of the< 3> two police officers, look what has happened here?< 4> A. As far as I remember those police officers were< 5> dealing with Mr Lawrence.< 6> Q. I am sorry, what were they doing to Mr Lawrence?< 7> A. Giving him first aid.< 8> Q. Were they?< 9> A. As far I know they were attending to him on the<10> floor.<11> Q. Please be careful, if all you can recollect is<12> two people by the body would you say so?<13> A. As I said they were tending.<14> Q. What were they doing?<15> A. As far as I know they were giving him first aid.<16> Q. What first aid?<17> A. I don't know I was not doing it. I believe they<18> were giving him first aid.<19> Q. You believe?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. I suggest they were not giving any form of<22> first aid at all the two police officers, they were<23> not giving first aid, were they?<24> A. They were as far as I am aware.<25> Q. They were? I suggest you are not telling the

. P-1283

< 1> truth about that?< 2> A. You can suggest what you like, sir but they were< 3> giving first aid as far as I was aware. I can't see< 4> any reason why they weren't.< 5> Q. Are you prepared to support the police officers< 6> because there may be an allegation they did not give< 7> first aid, are you prepared to do that?< 8> A. I got out of the carrier and as far as I know< 9> they were giving him first aid.<10> Q. That is not something you suggested in your<11> first statement either, is it?<12> A. I put tended to, have I not, tended to by<13> several police officers.<14> Q. Just look at the statement, would you mind, the<15> one that you did shortly thereafter based, you think,<16> on your----<17> A. Occupant entry (?)<18> Q. Yes. Being attended by or tended may give the<19> impression that they are just there, may it not?<20> A. It depends on how you read it. I put "tended<21> to".<22> Q. Your belief about the scene was that these<23> officers were giving first aid?<24> A. Yes.<25> Q. Did that stop you from therefore asking a single

. P-1284

< 1> question of either of them?< 2> A. No.< 3> Q. Why did you not?< 4> A. Inspector Groves, as far as I remember, was< 5> speaking to people at the scene.< 6> Q. He was?< 7> A. As far as I remember.< 8> Q. What did they say?< 9> A. I don't remember.<10> Q. Nothing?<11> A. No.<12> Q. When he finished speaking did he have a lot of<13> information?<14> A. I don't know. I did not hear what he said so I<15> cannot say----<16> Q. You walked -- according to you, I want to deal<17> with just this part of it as well, just examining<18> really whether you do have a recollection of all of<19> this. You say today, do you, that who got off the<20> carrier when it stopped?<21> A. Inspector Groves, Sergeant Clements and myself.<22> Q. Are you sure about that?<23> A. As far as I remember, yes.<24> Q. You see, that is not, in fact, in the statement<25> either, is it?

. P-1285

< 1> A. No.< 2> Q. When did you remember that?< 3> A. I know I got off the carrier because I walked up< 4> to the public house.< 5> Q. We will come to that. When did you remember< 6> that Clement, Groves and yourself got off the< 7> carrier?< 8> A. When did I remember?< 9> Q. Yes, when did you remember?<10> A. I do not recall when I remembered. I know I<11> made a statement at that point but I don't think it<12> seemed important.<13> Q. When you were asked by the Kent Police about who<14> was on the carrier, to save calling it up but if it<15> is easy it is 00300089. Can I read you, you were<16> asked, if I am going too fast please say, it is at<17> the foot of the page. You seem to remember sitting at<18> the rear of the carrier:<19> "I know I definitely was not the driver. I<20> cannot recall as to who the other officers were on<21> the carrier. But I seem to believe<22> Police Constable Paul McGary was with us. I also<23> believed Inspector Groves was with us or at least<24> when we got to Well Hall Road I remember him, being<25> with him." Do you follow that?

. P-1286

< 1> A. Yes, sir.< 2> Q. There is no mention of Mr Clements there, is< 3> there?< 4> A. No, sir.< 5> Q. Had you forgotten in June last year that Mr< 6> Clements was with you?< 7> A. I didn't recall it at that time.< 8> Q. You recall it today?< 9> A. When I think about it, yes.<10> Q. Yes. Do you know what Mr Clements said about<11> who got off the carrier, his belief?<12> A. That him and Mr Groves got off the carrier.<13> Q. Were you sitting here when he gave evidence, I<14> am not objecting if you were?<15> A. No, sir I was not in here.<16> Q. He does not seem to think that anyone other than<17> himself and Mr Groves got off. Why did you get off<18> the carrier, if you did?<19> A. To see if I could help, I should think.<20> Q. There was not anything you could do?<21> A. I didn't know that until I got to the scene as<22> such.<23> Q. You drive up to the scene, apparently, that is<24> why I was asking you about the pool of blood and when<25> you could see it.

. P-1287

< 1> There were two police officers, according to< 2> you, giving first aid, is that right?< 3> A. Yes, sir.< 4> Q. There was not anything you could do, was there?< 5> A. I did do what I had to do. I went off to< 6> make----< 7> Q. There was not anything that would cause you to< 8> get off the carrier, Mr Hodges, was there?< 9> A. It depends what you say, "caused me to get off<10> the carrier".<11> Q. I want to know what you thought you could do at<12> the scene which caused you to get off the carrier?<13> A. I don't know, I thought I might be able to<14> assist in some way.<15> Q. Did you offer help then?<16> A. To whom?<17> Q. The people who were there, Mr Hodges?<18> A. I may well have done.<19> Q. You may well have done. Did you offer a<20> first-aid kit, for example?<21> A. No, I did not.<22> Q. There was one on the carrier, was there?<23> A. There should have been, yes.<24> Q. Are you first aid trained yourself?<25> A. Yes basic first aid, yes.

. P-1288

< 1> Q. Did you ask any questions based on your first< 2> aid training?< 3> A. No.< 4> Q. Why not?< 5> A. Because as I say the officers were attending to< 6> him.< 7> Q. Did you want to know whether he was dead or< 8> alive?< 9> A. I didn't want to get in the way of the officers.<10> Q. Did you want to know if he was dead or alive?<11> A. I did not want to walk up and say, is that bloke<12> dead or alive?<13> Q. Of course you would not be quite as forceful as<14> that. Did you ask a single question about, how is he<15> doing?<16> A. Not that I remember, no.<17> Q. Why not?<18> A. I don't know why not.<19> Q. Mr Hodges, were you really off the carrier and<20> interested at all?<21> A. I must have been off the carrier as I say<22> because I walked from the carrier to the public house<23> with Mr Groves.<24> Q. We will come to that. You asked no questions<25> about first aid or whether he is----

. P-1289

< 1> A. Not that I remember.< 2> Q. You do not recall asking any questions about his< 3> welfare. You do not remember asking any questions< 4> about, you know, how it had come about, none of that?< 5> A. Not at that point, no.< 6> Q. Not at that point. May I suggest to you you< 7> were not a lot of help at all getting off the< 8> carrier?< 9> A. I got off the police carrier in order to<10> get----<11> Q. How many others got off the carrier at that<12> point?<13> A. I don't remember.<14> Q. Or did they all sit on the carrier?<15> A. They might well have done.<16> Q. What happened to the carrier?<17> A. What do you mean, "what happened to the<18> carrier"?<19> Q. It just sat there, did it?<20> A. At that point I believe, yes.<21> Q. There was no rush anywhere, was there, by the<22> carrier?<23> A. No, sir, they were at the scene with the<24> Inspector and the Sergeant off.<25> Q. You went off and the carrier was still there?

. P-1290

< 1> A. I went off, sir.< 2> Q. According to you, you go off to the Welcome Inn< 3> Public House and the carrier is still there?< 4> A. I think the carrier went off to search the area.< 5> Q. Do you?< 6> A. Yes.< 7> Q. How do you know that?< 8> A. Because it left the scene.< 9> Q. How do you know where it was going?<10> A. I am only assuming that, I cannot think of any<11> other reason it would have left.<12> Q. On your account you think the carrier goes off?<13> A. Yes.<14> Q. You are going to the Welcome Pub?<15> A. On foot.<16> Q. We know that is up by Westmount Road. Can we<17> have the plan back again please, which is 45, 181.<18> Can we have it scrolled down a bit so we can get up<19> to Westmount Road. Down. There is Westmount Road.<20> You see where the star is Westmount Road is just<21> above that and the pub is on one of the two corners<22> on that side of the road?<23> A. It is on that same side of the road, I could not<24> say the junction.<25> Q. Whose idea was it to go to the Welcome Pub?

. P-1291

< 1> A. I don't remember.< 2> Q. You do not remember. Did Mr Groves, if< 3> apparently he went with you, did he say anything< 4> about why you were going there?< 5> A. He could well have done but I don't remember< 6> what he said.< 7> Q. According to you, therefore, you have little or< 8> no information to go on at this point walking up to< 9> the pub?<10> A. That is right.<11> Q. In fact, if the culprits had run off in the<12> opposite direction you were going on a fairly<13> fruitless journey, were you not?<14> A. Not necessarily.<15> Q. But it would help to go into the direction that<16> the culprits had gone in a sense if you are making<17> enquiries?<18> A. It also might help to go to a public house close<19> by where there could have been an incident in which<20> there could have been witnesses.<21> Q. Did you know this public house?<22> A. Yes, I know the public house, not very well<23> though.<24> Q. Has it got a reputation for encouraging some<25> kind of rowdiness which people with certain beliefs

. P-1292

< 1> end up in. Does it have a reputation?< 2> A. It is a Beefeater type place.< 3> THE CHAIRMAN: Could you choose a moment,< 4> Mr Mansfield.< 5> MR MANSFIELD: It just a family pub, is it not?< 6> A. That is all I know of it, yes.< 7> Q. Not the sort of place you would rush to, is it?< 8> A. You can never know what happened there, do you?< 9> Q. All right. I want to ask you on this: when you<10> walked up the road did you see a TSG carrier coming<11> up behind you?<12> A. No, because if I had been walking up the road I<13> would not have seen it.<14> Q. Quite. You go inside the public house and you<15> ask some questions?<16> A. Yes, sir.<17> Q. Who of?<18> A. I think we asked the people behind the bar and<19> generally any customers, there was not many people in<20> there.<21> Q. The bar they would remember you coming in, the<22> bar staff?<23> A. I would have thought so.<24> Q. All right. How long were you in the pub,<25> roughly, a couple of minutes?

. P-1293

< 1> A. Not very long.< 2> Q. When you come out do you then see a TSG carrier< 3> coming up the road driven by Mr Clement with all the< 4> rest on board, heading for the Welcome Pub?< 5> A. I think we might have got back on to the< 6> carrier.< 7> Q. Where was the carrier when you came out of the< 8> public house?< 9> A. I can't remember.<10> Q. Can you not?<11> THE CHAIRMAN: As usual do not talk to anyone about<12> your evidence. We will start again at 2.00<13> (Luncheon Adjournment)<14> MR MANSFIELD: Officer, just a preliminary, before<15> giving evidence today had you been sitting in the<16> waiting room here?<17> A. I'd been in various rooms, in the police room<18> and in the other end room in the public gallery where<19> you have tea and coffee.<20> Q. All I want to ask is when you were in the public<21> waiting room were you listening to what Mr Clement<22> had to say?<23> A. I saw some of what Mr Clement said, but not all<24> of it.<25> Q. It is not a complaint, I just want to establish

. P-1294

< 1> that you did hear some.< 2> A. Yes, I did.< 3> Q. There is not much more to ask you. I want to< 4> ask you about coming out of the public house, the< 5> Welcome Inn. Where was the carrier at this point?< 6> A. I cannot remember.< 7> Q. Did you get into the carrier at this point?< 8> A. I cannot say definitely yes, but we may well< 9> have done to get us back to the scene quicker.<10> Q. Well, the reason I ask is this -- could your<11> statement come back up again, 38, 230, please. It is<12> about halfway down the page. "Myself", and so on and<13> then there is a sentence three lines down from the<14> cursor at the moment: "We then returned to the<15> carrier and back to the scene."<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. It does look as though, having come out of the<18> -- we have seen it on the plan and I do not ask for<19> that again -- in order to get to the scene, by which<20> you mean from where Stephen Lawrence fell ----<21> A. Yes, sir.<22> Q. ---- you got into the carrier?<23> A. Yes, sir. That is what I believe from that<24> statement I made there.<25> Q. Right. During that time, therefore, that you

. P-1295

< 1> have walked up, gone into the pub, come back out< 2> again, got into the carrier, you did not see at any< 3> point during that Mr Clement going into the Welcome< 4> Inn, did you?< 5> A. I personally did not, no. It is quite a big< 6> pub.< 7> Q. You stayed with him for a while because he is< 8> with you cordoning off the area around the tree or< 9> somewhere around there; is that right?<10> A. Yes.<11> Q. Did he say he had just been into the pub?<12> A. I don't recall that, sir, no.<13> Q. Now, you have not yet mentioned it, but may I<14> just clarify, you having spent some time taping off<15> the tree area you then shift between that area and<16> another area down at Dickson Road; is that right?<17> A. I think we went down to near where the bus<18> shelter was if that is Dickson Road.<19> Q. Yes, that is Dickson Road. You do that between<20> the two sightings of the red car?<21> A. I believe so, yes, sir.<22> Q. So when you see it on the second occasion you<23> are near the bus shelter?<24> A. Yes, sir, I believe so.<25> Q. On the same side of the road as the Astra itself

. P-1296

< 1> coming up Well Hall Road?< 2> A. Yes, sir.< 3> Q. When you shifted and you are down at that scene< 4> are you with then other officers?< 5> A. I would have been, yes.< 6> Q. Yes. So just to get the picture at that point< 7> where the car comes passed the second time. You are< 8> with other officers by the bus shelter and there are< 9> other officers further up the road near the tree<10> where you have done the cordoning off?<11> A. I should think so, yes.<12> Q. Just continuing that night, is it right to say<13> you did not engage in any house-to-house enquiries in<14> the Dickson Road area?<15> A. I personally did not, no.<16> Q. Or -- well, I will broaden it out. That night<17> you did not do house-to-house enquiries anywhere?<18> A. Me, as a person?<19> Q. Yes?<20> A. No.<21> Q. It is right that you did not see any of your<22> fellow officers doing that either?<23> A. I believe there were officers there knocking on<24> doors but I didn't do anything. I remained at the<25> two scenes.

. P-1297

< 1> Q. I do not want to ask you -- well, you said you< 2> believed. You did not see any other officers< 3> performing that task, did you?< 4> A. No, sir.< 5> Q. Right. The reason I ask you specifically is< 6> that is what you told the Kent Police. You did not< 7> see any other officers doing that or you do not< 8> recall seeing it.< 9> Now, so far as the records at the scene, I can<10> deal with it quickly, you did not see anybody keeping<11> any kind of log as to either of the two scenes, the<12> tree or Dickson Road, the bus shelter, did you?<13> A. I believe Mr Groves was making some notes, but I<14> did not actually see what he was writing.<15> Q. We will come to him. Did you see anything that<16> approaches a log being made by a police constable?<17> A. No, not by a police constable, no.<18> Q. So your movements were not being recorded, so<19> far as you could tell, you were not signing yourself<20> in and out of various scenes that night?<21> A. No, I was not.<22> Q. Now, the last question I have is this: the<23> driver of the vehicle you thought was McGary?<24> A. I thought so, yes.<25> Q. Could it have been Mr Smith?

. P-1298

< 1> A. Is that Paul Smith?< 2> Q. Yes?< 3> A. It could well have been, but I can't remember.< 4> Q. In fact, you do not really know who was driving< 5> then at all? It could have been anybody?< 6> A. I am not too sure. I remember that PC McGary< 7> was, I'm sure, but whether he was driving, as I said< 8> to the lady earlier ----< 9> Q. You do not really know?<10> MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.<11> THE CHAIRMAN: The officer has been very well<12> questioned. Does anyone have any further questions?<13> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR EGAN<14> MR EGAN: On behalf -- I represent Inspector Groves,<15> amongst other officers, just two matters, please.<16> Firstly, you were asked a number of questions by<17> my learned friend, Mr Mansfield, for the Lawrence<18> family about getting off the carrier. When you<19> arrived at the scene there had obviously been<20> something serious had happened, had there not?<21> A. Yes.<22> Q. In those circumstances where an incident has<23> happened is it sensible for a reasonably experienced<24> police officer to get on or get off the carrier or<25> stay on it?

. P-1299

< 1> A. In certain circumstances stay on the carrier.< 2> If you are instructed to get off the carrier you get< 3> off.< 4> Q. Why did you get off the carrier?< 5> A. I think it must have been -- Mr Groves must have< 6> directed me to go with him to the public house.< 7> Q. Right. Because that is the second matter I< 8> wanted to ask you about. You went to the public< 9> house with Mr Groves and you're expressed, are you,<10> that you went on his instructions, he took the<11> decision?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Do you recollect him giving any instructions to<14> anyone left at the scene?<15> A. No, but I might not have heard if he had.<16> MR EGAN: I see. I will not ask you any more then.<17> Thank you.<18> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR MCDONALD<19> Q. I am representing Duwayne Brooks and I adopt<20> much of the questioning that has been asked of you<21> about the red Astra. I just wanted to try to<22> establish when exactly it was that you first spotted<23> that red Astra?<24> A. If I remember rightly, it was when we cordoned<25> off the scene where Mr Lawrence lay. It was some

. P-1300

< 1> time after that that I saw the car travelling towards< 2> the cinema.< 3> Q. Now, you say that when you arrived you were the< 4> first police carrier there?< 5> A. Yes, I believe we were the first carrier. Not< 6> the first police vehicle, but the first police< 7> carrier.< 8> Q. The first police carrier. When you arrived< 9> Stephen Lawrence was still lying on the ground?<10> A. Yes.<11> Q. He had not been taken to hospital. Your vehicle<12> stopped?<13> A. That is correct, yes, sir.<14> Q. Did an officer come up to the passenger window<15> and speak to someone inside?<16> A. I do not remember that, but he could well have<17> done.<18> Q. Point down the hill?<19> A. Not that I remember, no, sir.<20> Q. Did the carrier not leave and go down to the<21> direction of Dickson Road?<22> A. Not that I know, sir, no.<23> Q. Did anyone get out of the carrier at that stage?<24> A. At that point Mr Groves and Sergeant Clement got<25> out of the carrier.

. P-1301

< 1> Q. Or is it a case that the people in the carrier< 2> had a conversation with the officers who were already< 3> there and then immediately set off for an initial< 4> mobile search in the Dickson Road area?< 5> A. The way I remember the incident, we stayed there< 6> for a little while and the supervising officers were< 7> off the carrier and I then attended the public house< 8> with Mr Groves.< 9> Q. You cannot give an accurate estimate of the time<10> but you are back with Mr Clement cordoning off the<11> area, you thought, within about half an hour?<12> A. Yes, sir.<13> Q. But no later?<14> A. I would not have thought so, no, sir.<15> Q. And possibly and even shorter period of time?<16> A. Yes, possibly.<17> Q. So you would be cordoning off and then spotting<18> the Astra more or less at the same time?<19> A. I believe the cordons were up, yes, and I then<20> spotted the Astra car, yes.<21> Q. We are talking at sometime between 11.15 and<22> 11.30?<23> A. Approximately, yes.<24> Q. Can I ask you this: do you know about the Wild<25> Fowler Public House?

. P-1302

< 1> A. Yes, sir.< 2> Q. In Thamesmead?< 3> A. Yes, sir.< 4> Q. You have been there, obviously?< 5> A. Yes, sir. One time I executed a search warrant< 6> there with other officers in relation to a drug< 7> dealing.< 8> Q. And we have established it a well known haunt< 9> for (inaudible). What I wanted to ask you was this:<10> approximately how long -- you know the area, how long<11> would it take to drive from there to Well Hall Road?<12> A. At that time of the day, no traffic, 15<13> minutes. I am not too sure on the area. I would say<14> 15 to 20 minutes.<15> Q. At most?<16> A. At most, yes.<17> Q. Then I just wanted to finally ask you this: you<18> have said it was in the red Astra five people when<19> you first saw it and five people when you saw it<20> again?<21> A. Yes, sir.<22> Q. You are sure about those ----<23> A. Yes, three in the back and two in the front.<24> Q. Both time the same number of people?<25> A. Yes, sir.

. P-1303

< 1> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR GOMPERTZ< 2> Q. Only one matter. We have already looked at this< 3> document. I wonder if we can have MET 82 at page 82< 4> on screen please. You were asked, Sergeant, about< 5> the Astra and what happened to the information which< 6> you provided to your superior officer. If we look at< 7> this message, if we go down a bit, please, we can see< 8> -- we are actually at an action, I apologise. We< 9> can see there is a sentence which begins: "Whilst I<10> was at the scene"?<11> A. Yes, sir.<12> Q. "Whilst I was at the scene uniformed officers<13> noticed an old style Vauxhall, drove past a number of<14> times, with a group of youngsters in it. They seemed<15> to think something was humorous about this. The car<16> had a part index number. Uniform officers may have<17> more details."<18> Then details of the TSG who were present are set<19> out.<20> If you can go up the page, please, a little<21> bit. Sorry, the other way. That is the action. I<22> do not think we need go to the -- you can see the<23> name over on the left-hand side about six lines<24> down. There is reference to message number M2,<25> surname Pye, that is Detective Constable Pye, who was

. P-1304

< 1> responsible for the message which gave rise to this< 2> action. If we do go to the action -- no, we can see< 3> the time on this. Just to the right of where it says< 4> "message number M2". There is at date, the 23rd,< 5> that is the Friday; time, 8.34 in the morning. So it< 6> looks as though that information was passed to< 7> Detective Constable Pye who put it into the system at< 8> that time.< 9> That is all I want to ask, thank you.<10> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Thank you for<11> coming, officer. That is your evidence complete, you<12> can leave.<13> (The Witness Withdrew)<14> MR LAWSON: The next witness is Inspector Groves,<15> please.<16> THE CHAIRMAN: May I indicate that we all hope that<17> this witness will complete his evidence today. I am<18> sure<19> people will cooperate in questioning him to that<20> effect.<21> MR LAWSON: The 1993 statement by this witness is at<22> PCA 38, page 303.<23> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.<24> <STEPHEN FRANCIS GROVES, (sworn)<25> MR LAWSON: Is your name Stephen Francis Groves?

. P-1305

< 1> A. Yes, it is.< 2> Q. You are an inspector serving in the Metropolitan< 3> Police?< 4> A. Yes, that's right.< 5> Q. Currently stationed where?< 6> A. 1 Area Headquarters, that is Westminster.< 7> Q. Mr Groves, already on the screen in fact is a< 8> copy of the statement made by you in May 1993 to< 9> which I will be referring in due course. Can I ask,<10> however, first that we learn a little of your<11> background. Can we look to the form which is PCA at<12> page 8, please.<13> We have seen this, Mr Groves, it comes<14> conveniently out of the Kent report. So there be no<15> misunderstanding about it, it refers to details of an<16> officer subject to complaint. You received notice,<17> as did other officers, that there were various<18> matters of complaint considered against you, did you<19> not?<20> A. Yes, that's right.<21> Q. In your case, we can glance at them, the matters<22> you were being asked particularly to address, page 24<23> of volume 50, it is right there, questions of<24> consideration being given to neglect of duty in<25> respect of a failure to ensure a record was kept at

. P-1306

< 1> the scene and a failure in respect of first aid< 2> treatment?< 3> A. That's right, sir.< 4> Q. Those are the two matters. Can we go to page 8,< 5> and if we go to the foot of the page we see there< 6> that you joined the Metropolitan Police in 1970 and< 7> therefore had some 22, 23 years service at the time< 8> that we are going to be concerned with?< 9> A. That's right.<10> Q. There is a brief history given of your police<11> service there, which I need not read out, and<12> reference is made at the very foot of the page to a<13> commendation you received in relation to a robbery<14> arrest that occured in June 1993?<15> A. That's right, sir.<16> Q. Moving then back to the statement of 11th May,<17> that is PCA 38, page 303, may I ask you this first,<18> this is obviously dealing with the events of the<19> evening of 22nd April 1993, I understand, is this<20> correct, that you have in fact no surviving notes?<21> A. No, sir, I have not.<22> Q. I say no surviving notes, I know this was matter<23> raised with you by the Kent investigators, there was<24> reference to you having the clipboard at the scene?<25> A. I still have the clipboard, I don't have any

. P-1307

< 1> notes. I have no copies of the notes either, the< 2> notes I made.< 3> Q. What happened to them, do you know?< 4> A. The notes I made that night were fairly< 5> comprehensive. They were taken by me at their< 6> request to Shooters Hill Police Station a little< 7> while later. In fact I went to Shooters Hill on two< 8> occasion to takes bits and pieces, to take notes,< 9> whatever they wanted.<10> Q. This is during what I call the initial<11> investigation period?<12> A. Yeah, this is fairly early on.<13> Q. Did you have, do you remember, your notes at the<14> time you made this statement?<15> A. Possibly, yes, possibly.<16> Q. I am going to ask you questions in any event<17> with reference to the statement. On the evening in<18> question as you there record you were at the<19> Inspector in charge of B team for the TSG?<20> A. That is correct.<21> Q. The No 3 Area; is that right?<22> A. That's right.<23> Q. As you indicate there are a number of officers<24> concerned on how many vehicles that night?<25> A. I think there were 4 or 5. I think there may be

. P-1308

< 1> 4 carriers and one unmarked vehicle and one general< 2> purpose car.< 3> Q. You in due course went to the scene in Well Hall< 4> Road?< 5> A. That's right.< 6> Q. Stephen Lawrence's murder, that much I know is< 7> not in dispute, when maybe, as I think have you been< 8> put on notice?< 9> A. I understand.<10> Q. There is some confusion, if I may say so, your<11> statement does not help in this respect about which<12> of the carriers you were on. Your statement as we<13> can see refers to you being engaged in supervising a<14> carrier with a call sign of uniform 3254, which I do<15> not think is anyone's number?<16> A. That is, I would say, a typing error. There is<17> no such call sign. It could have either been<18> uniformed 324, which I think that vehicle I was on at<19> some stage -- sorry sir -- I think later on that<20> evening I was on the vehicle known as uniform 325.<21> We would not have had a 3254.<22> Q. There was a 324, a 325 and a 326 whatever else<23> there may have been?<24> A. That's right, sir, yes.<25> Q. Your statement of 11th May says that the carrier

. P-1309

< 1> you were on was driven by PC Clutterbuck?< 2> A. Yes.< 3> Q. He, let me tell you, unequivocally asserts, and< 4> I do not think there is anything to contradict this,< 5> that he was the driver on 324. For our reference< 6> purposes his statement is PCA 38, page 125?< 7> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.< 8> MR LAWSON: I do not propose to call him.< 9> THE WITNESS: I would not dispute that. Can I<10> explain where I think there may be a problem here.<11> The Inspector in charge of the TSG team when he or<12> she would rostered, if you like, Commissioner's<13> Reserve would be in charge of a number of vehicles.<14> The whole idea the TSG is to have a mobile force, if<15> you like. I use the word force as opposed to a<16> service. You would have a mobile force, you would<17> have a number of vehicles and a number of officers.<18> I would be expected to deal with their welfare, time<19> off, sickness, problems, in addition to anything<20> police work wise that they may be tasked or may be<21> dealing with.<22> It would be very probable that during the course<23> of a shift I would go from one vehicle to another.<24> It is extremely unlikely that I would stay on one<25> vehicle for a shift because I would have to seek a

. P-1310

< 1> number of officers throughout the shift and we could< 2> be split up depending on what we were dealing with.< 3> Q. Let us get at it this way if we can Inspector:< 4> It is not, I think, disputed that eventually a number< 5> of TSG carriers attended the scene, let us not worry< 6> about the time?< 7> A. Eventually sir, yes, that's right, yes that's< 8> right.< 9> Q. Are you able to tell us whether you were in the<10> first, the second, the third to arrive?<11> A. I do not recall seeing any of my colleagues. I<12> can only assume I was the first to arrive. I would<13> say we were the first vehicle to arrive.<14> Q. You obviously know Sergeant Clement, who has<15> given evidence here?<16> A. Yes, I do.<17> Q. Was he on the van you turned up in?<18> A. Yes, sir, he was.<19> Q. I do not think anybody disputes, but the van he<20> was on was 326?<21> A. It is quite possible, I was with him.<22> Q. Are you able to give an indication of what time<23> you got to the scene?<24> A. No, not really, I would think about 10.45.<25> Q. You went there in response to a radio message,

. P-1311

< 1> did you not?< 2> A. Yes, I did.< 3> Q. If you look on the screen at PCA 45, 329, a type< 4> of document you will be familiar with, a CAD message< 5> timed at 22.43?< 6> A. Yes.< 7> Q. Referring to a distressed male caller< 8> stating "male assaulted with iron bar, male has head< 9> injuries"?<10> A. Yes, I can see that.<11> Q. If we go back to your statement at PCA 38 303,<12> is that the message that you are there referring to?<13> A. Yes, sir.<14> Q. Do you recall where you were when you received<15> that message?<16> A. No.<17> Q. Or particularly how far, how long it took you<18> roughly to get to the scene?<19> A. I have a feeling we were tasked that particular<20> afternoon or evening to possibly Woolwich Plumstead,<21> possibly even Greenwich. I am pretty sure it was the<22> Woolwich area. We would get tasked, the unit would<23> get tasked often on a day to day basis. That day we<24> were possibly at Woolwich.<25> Q. Can you help us in this respect: you get to the

. P-1312

< 1> scene, whatever time it was, in Well Hall Road, look< 2> at the plan please on the screen at PCA 43 161, would< 3> you?< 4> A. Yes, I have that.< 5> Q. I will give you moment to familiarise yourself< 6> with it.< 7> We know that Stephen Lawrence collapsed more or< 8> less opposite Downman Road?< 9> A. I can see a mark on the map.<10> Q. Can you give us an approximation of where your<11> carrier, whatever number it was, stopped when you<12> arrived at the scene?<13> A. Very near to where Stephen was lying on the<14> pavement. I would say virtually opposite.<15> Q. There were other vehicles present presumably, we<16> know that other police vehicles were there?<17> A. I am certain there were two vehicles. There was<18> a Panda, a marked car and an area car there.<19> Q. Tell us this please: you are about to confirm to<20> us I anticipate that you saw Stephen Lawrence, as you<21> found out he was in due course, lying on the<22> pavement?<23> A. That's right.<24> Q. We know an ambulance in due course came and took<25> him away?

. P-1313

< 1> A. Yes, that's right.< 2> Q. Had the ambulance arrived when you got there?< 3> A. The ambulance had been and gone, and I am sorry< 4> I am not with you, initially?< 5> Q. When you first arrived at the scene.< 6> A. When I first arrived, no, no there was no< 7> ambulance there.< 8> Q. Did you see it in due course, the ambulance< 9> arriving?<10> A. No, I did not.<11> Q. Did you become aware of the ambulance being<12> there?<13> A. No, sir.<14> Q. So you did not actually see the ambulance come<15> and collect Stephen Lawrence and depart?<16> A. No, sir, I did not.<17> Q. When you got to the scene, if we go back then<18> please to your statement, page 303 of PCA 38, you<19> refer there towards the foot of the page to seeing<20> Stephen Lawrence, as we know him to be, lying on the<21> pavement. Yes?<22> A. Yes, that's right.<23> Q. Can you describe how he was lying?<24> A. If you actually -- the actual scene where<25> Stephen was lying, there is pavement, to his left is

. P-1314

< 1> a large plain tree, to his right is a lamp post.< 2> Q. Do forgive me interrupting you, it is entirely< 3> my fault, I mean in what position was he lying?< 4> A. I would say the recovery position.< 5> Q. This was matter you were asked about, I know, by< 6> the Kent Police investigators who interviewed you at< 7> some length, did they not?< 8> A. Yes, they did.< 9> Q. Help us about that, could you look at PCA 49 at<10> page 61. If we look at that answer at the foot of<11> the page, there we are, now on the screen?<12> A. I can see it.<13> Q. You refer to Stephen Lawrence and his position<14> on the 4th line?<15> A. Yes.<16> Q. "He was lying on his face on his front and head<17> near to the wall".<18> A. That's right.<19> Q. Is that an accurate description?<20> A. Yes, it is.<21> Q. If we look forward a little to page 64 of the<22> same interview, foot of the page again, you repeated<23> that description, did you not, "lying on his front on<24> his face", yes?<25> A. I think it is very important here to make

. P-1315

< 1> everyone aware of exactly how he was lying.< 2> Q. Would you bear with me a moment, Mr Groves. I< 3> do not want to interrupt your answer, but just bear< 4> with me in relation to this, I am taking you to it< 5> because it involves a slightly fuller description.< 6> Follow me, if you will. You said: "I think his head< 7> was turned. I am pretty certain that one of his legs< 8> was bent at an angle"?< 9> A. That's right, that's right.<10> Q. He was not lying directly, you said, on his<11> face?<12> A. No, he was not.<13> Q. "As though he had just fallen flat on his face.<14> He was looking as though he was lying in a recovery,<15> what I would certainly call the recovery position".<16> A. That's right.<17> Q. Is that now on reflection how would you describe<18> the way in which you saw him lying on the ground?<19> A. I think that is exactly how he was lying on the<20> ground.<21> Q. Your statement, if we go back to that, forgive<22> me jumping around, it is better to deal with these<23> things on a topic by topic basis, your statement on<24> the foot of page 303 says he was in the recovery<25> position, yes?

. P-1316

< 1> A. That's right, yes.< 2> Q. And appeared to be breathing?< 3> A. That's right.< 4> Q. Help us about that. How could you tell he was< 5> breathing?< 6> A. I could not. Can I explain how I came to that< 7> conclusion?< 8> Q. Yes, do.< 9> A. When I got there, Stephen was lying in the<10> recovery position. There were two police officers,<11> if I remember, that were down on their hands and<12> knees tending to Stephen. There were two other<13> people, I think they were also crouched down as well,<14> but I am not sure what they were doing. All four of<15> them were around Stephen's head, shoulder area, the<16> top of him.<17> There was also another man, Duwayne Brooks, who<18> seemed to be -- or I would describe as hysterical.<19> He was sort of, I think at that time, to the right of<20> where Stephen was lying or to my right towards<21> Rochester Way. He was sort of walking up and down<22> making a lot of noise. Very, very upset,<23> understandably so.<24> Q. I want to know why he you (inaudible) breathing?<25> A. Right. I got off the carrier. I said to the

. P-1317

< 1> officers: "Is he breathing?" I got no reply. I< 2> said: "Is he bleeding?" I got no reply. "Do you< 3> want a hand or do you want any help?" No reply. I< 4> think Clement at that point came in as well. I think< 5> he offered the first aid -- we keep a fairly< 6> comprehensive first-aid kit on the vehicles. I think< 7> he offered them the first-aid kit.< 8> From what I could see, at that point, and I< 9> think this is very important here, at that point in<10> time, at that moment in time, they were doing, in my<11> opinion, what they should have been doing. They were<12> monitoring him. I could only assume from the<13> position of Stephen's head and what they were doing<14> to him that he was breathing. Which is what I did, I<15> assumed he was breathing.<16> Q. What were they actually doing to him?<17> A. At that time they appeared to be examining him.<18> Q. In what way?<19> A. Well, here we have an unconscious person.<20> Q. It was obvious to you he was unconscious?<21> A. He looked unconscious. He was not moving<22> Stephen was not moving. The officers appeared --<23> certainly the two officers, the police officers that<24> were by his head were monitoring his condition. They<25> appeared to be monitoring his condition, from what I

. P-1318

< 1> saw, very carefully. They had his head at what I< 2> would call certainly a right angle to help him to< 3> breath. It is quite possible, bearing in mind it is< 4> in dark or lamp light evening. I would also say that< 5> it looks as though -- from what I could see it looked< 6> as though they were taking a pulse and monitoring< 7> him.< 8> Q. You say it "looked as though they were taking a< 9> pulse" ----<10> A. For me to say they taking a pulse would be<11> impossible. It looked as though to me they were<12> taking his pulse. It looked as though they were<13> monitoring him. It looked as though they were<14> conducting a physical examination starting at his<15> head working down. I don't know. That is what it<16> looked like.<17> Q. You are not confusing what you think should have<18> been being done with what was actually done?<19> A. I think when you say "what should have been<20> done" ----<21> Q. The obvious first-aid steps?<22> A. Okay. Let us look at obvious first-aid steps<23> the. The information the officers have is that we<24> have a person who has possibly been involved in a<25> fight and hit over the head with an iron bar.

. P-1319

< 1> I would be very disappointed early on if there< 2> is any -- if there a probability that somebody is< 3> breathing and, providing the heart is beating, I< 4> would be certainly very concerned if they suddenly< 5> turned somebody over, bearing in mind we have got an< 6> unconscious person, turn them over onto their back< 7> or, as I have seen suggested, to look for an injury< 8> they would have had to take Stephen's clothing off< 9> him. It was fairly cold night. He had a lot of<10> clothing on, possibly even a blanket over him.<11> I would say at that point when I arrived they<12> were doing everything -- I found nothing wrong with<13> what they were doing. Nothing at all.<14> Q. My question of you was really based on this: it<15> seems from your evidence you are unable to say<16> precisely what they were doing by way of monitoring<17> him or administering first aid?<18> A. That is first aid. An ambulance had been<19> called, he was being attended to, that is first aid.<20> Q. You are unable to say if his pulse was being<21> monitored?<22> A. Sir, I did not personally monitor his pulse, no.<23> Q. I did not ask you that. You are unable to say<24> if his pulse was being monitored or not, are you, or<25> are you saying you can positively make that ----

. P-1320

< 1> A. No, I cannot say positively.< 2> Q. Or his breathing was being monitored ----< 3> A. His breathing and his vital signs appeared to< 4> have been monitored by the two officers.< 5> Q. I am not going to go around those circles any< 6> longer, but I do want to ask you about something you< 7> said in relation to breathing, which is an echo of< 8> what you told to the Kent investigators, which was< 9> asking questions of the police at the scene and<10> getting no answers?<11> A. That's right, sir.<12> Q. Let us look at PCA 49, page 57. Can you see<13> whether the name "Bethel" appears in capital letters?<14> A. Yes, I do.<15> Q. You said: "I think I asked if Stephen was<16> breathing. I got no reply"?<17> A. That's right.<18> Q. "I asked if he was bleeding and I got no reply"?<19> A. That's right.<20> Q. You said: "I had to make a decision as to<21> whether he was receiving proper care and attention<22> and, in my opinion, from what I said and from what we<23> have been told and the fact that at the time I saw no<24> blood and had no reason to believe he was not<25> breathing -- or was bleeding or was not bleeding"?

. P-1321

< 1> A. That's right.< 2> Q. "I let them get on with their job"?< 3> A. That's right.< 4> Q. You refer to the breathing position again a few< 5> pages later in the interview, page 65, if you look at< 6> that in the middle of the page. Right there. I said< 7> to the officers: "Is he breathing? I got no< 8> response. My conclusion was that if he had not been< 9> breathing they would have turned him on his back and<10> performed emergency resuscitation. They weren't<11> doing that"?<12> A. That's right, sir.<13> Q. When you were asked, as we can see on the<14> screen, whether you were concerned about them not<15> replying you said they were totally engrossed in what<16> they were doing. Did it not strike you as being at<17> all odd that you were asking them: "Is he breathing?<18> Is he bleeding", and they did not say anything to<19> you?<20> A. No, no.<21> Q. Does it seem a bit odd to you now?<22> A. No, sir. On the times that I have performed<23> resuscitation or cardiac massage I certainly would<24> not notice what anybody else is talking about or<25> doing. I would be totally engrossed, as they were.

. P-1322

< 1> They were engrossed in what they were doing. They< 2> were engrossed in monitoring Stephen's condition.< 3> I cannot elaborate on that. They were engrossed< 4> in what they were doing.< 5> Q. You said in your interview -- I will not go back< 6> to that page, page 57 for references purposes -- that< 7> having had those -- not having had those questions< 8> answered from your own observations and from what we< 9> have been told you were satisfied everything was<10> being done. What had you been told because seemingly<11> no one would talk to you?<12> A. Well, it is very important to remember what we<13> had been told.<14> Q. All I am asking you, please -- focus on the<15> question. What had you been told?<16> A. We had been told there had been a fight, there<17> had been a disturbance. Somebody had been hit over<18> the head with an iron bar.<19> Q. Is that original information you are referring<20> to?<21> A. Yes, sir. On arrival we see, or I see, a number<22> of people, one of whom is Stephen, appears to be<23> lying on the pavement unconscious. That is the<24> information. That is what I had heard and that is<25> what I had seen.

. P-1323

< 1> Q. You received no further information at the scene< 2> at this time at least; is that right?< 3> A. No, sir, that's right.< 4> Q. You have said both in your statement and in your< 5> interviews that you saw no sign of any bleeding?< 6> A. That's right, I didn't.< 7> Q. Other witnesses, including other police< 8> officers, have referred to see a substantial amount< 9> of blood apparently coming from Stephen Lawrence's<10> body. You saw none?<11> A. Not at the time I saw Stephen, no.<12> Q. Do you think it is possible you simply missed<13> it?<14> A. No, sir. I do not think that is possible. I<15> was too close to him.<16> Q. You inspected him really quite closely then, did<17> you?<18> A. Half the distance that we are. Yes, quite<19> closely.<20> Q. Was there anything covering him at this stage?<21> A. I cannot remember. Possibly a blanket. I think<22> they may have put at red blanket over Stephen.<23> Q. Do you remember or not? If you do not remember<24> tell us?<25> A. I am not totally sure, no.

. P-1324

< 1> Q. But no blood?< 2> A. I didn't see any blood.< 3> Q. Let us go back to your original 1993 statement.< 4> Go to the foot of page 303 in volume 38. Thank you.< 5> I have been asking you about the words on the last< 6> line: "He appeared to be the breathing", and you< 7> say: "I could not see any sign of any obvious wound< 8> and no sign of any bleeding at this stage"?< 9> A. That's right.<10> Q. Well, let me ask you, please, at any later stage<11> did you see bleeding?<12> A. No, sir, I did not. The only time I saw blood<13> was after Stephen had been moved. There was blood on<14> the footway.<15> Q. This is after the ambulance had come and gone?<16> A. That's right.<17> Q. Then your statement continues with obvious<18> reference, although you did not know his name at the<19> time, to Duwayne Brooks, yes?<20> A. That's right.<21> Q. He was in a very distraught state. The woman<22> police officer you then referred to we know as<23> Miss Bethel. You now know that is her name?<24> A. That's right, sir.<25> Q. Who, if anyone, was dealing with Duwayne

. P-1325

< 1> Brooks? You say he was very distraught; who was< 2> dealing with him?< 3> A. Somebody was trying to take hold of Duwayne's< 4> arms, I think, or trying to take hold of one of his< 5> arms. Trying to calm him down. I can't remember< 6> who.< 7> Q. Are you able to tell us whether it was a< 8> uniformed police officer, male or female, or a< 9> civilian?<10> A. No, I can't remember sir.<11> Q. There was already quite a number of people at<12> the scene by the time you got there. There were at<13> least two civilians?<14> A. Yes, that's right.<15> Q. Did you know Constable Geddis?<16> A. No, I did not.<17> Q. You perhaps know that since he was and off-duty<18> police officer who was passing by and he and his wife<19> stopped?<20> A. I did not know them then and I still do not know<21> them now.<22> Q. Constable Gleason?<23> A. No, I didn't.<24> Q. Constable Bethel, whose name you now heard?<25> A. Bethel, yes.

. P-1326

< 1> Q. And another constable, a Woman Constable Smith< 2> turned up pretty early on. Was any of those people< 3> -- any of those police officers apparently dealing< 4> with Duwayne Brooks?< 5> A. As I say, I think one of them or somebody was< 6> trying to take hold of Duwayne and, as I say, I did< 7> not know the officer then or I don't know the officer< 8> now or the person then or the person now. I do not< 9> know who it was.<10> Q. Let us move on. You got to the point, you told<11> us, of satisfying yourself that Stephen Lawrence was<12> being well looked after?<13> A. That's right.<14> Q. That is obviously the first and most important<15> thing to do?<16> A. That's right.<17> Q. The next thing, presumably, is trying to find<18> out what happened?<19> A. That's right, sir.<20> Q. Well, whether the information you had been given<21> was right or wrong, the information you had been<22> given clearly indicated, as did his condition, that<23> he had recently been the subject of a very violent<24> assault?<25> A. Yes, he certainly appeared to be.

. P-1327

< 1> Q. Presumably, you made enquiries of others at the< 2> scene as to what had happened? Did anyone know< 3> anything?< 4> A. I asked -- I am pretty certain that I asked< 5> Duwayne what happened. Is he all right and what< 6> happened. I did not get anything at all from him.< 7> Q. What about your police colleagues at the scene,< 8> did you ask any of them?< 9> A. It is very, very probable that I asked them what<10> happened. I did not get anything from anybody.<11> Q. Can I ask you, please -- we might as well look<12> at this as I refer to it -- to look at an extract<13> from the statement given by WPC Bethel at PCA 38,<14> page 53. She gave evidence to this effect, let me<15> tell you, Inspector. I am not asking to you agree or<16> contradict her evidence. I am just putting it to you<17> at the moment. She is there referring to her<18> dealings with Duwayne Brooks. Do you see that?<19> A. Yes, sir I can see it.<20> Q. About seven or eight lines down she said: "All<21> he could say was that they" -- that is the<22> attackers -- "had run off down Dickson Road which he<23> pointed out to her?<24> A. I can see that.<25> Q. "As we were joined by other officers I sent them

. P-1328

< 1> to search for the suspects".< 2> A. Yes, sir, I can see that.< 3> Q. Just pausing there, in due course some of your< 4> men did look in Dickson Road, did they not?< 5> A. Yes, they did. Well, in due course we all< 6> looked in Dickson Road.< 7> Q. Did that derive from the information you had< 8> been given by Miss Bethel?< 9> A. No, sir, it did not, not at that time.<10> Q. You did not get that information?<11> A. No, sir.<12> Q. I think you are going to tell us that quite<13> along while later you spoke to somebody, a Mr Nugent?<14> A. Yes, I did.<15> Q. Who gave you information to similar effect; is<16> that right?<17> A. Yes, that's right sir.<18> Q. Was it after receiving that information from<19> Mr Nugent that you first looked in Dickson Road?<20> A. It is quite possible we had information coming<21> over the radio as well. I don't know what time that<22> would have been. I certainly spoke to Mr Nugent.<23> Q. Do you remember any information coming over the<24> radio about where the suspects were thought to have<25> gone?

. P-1329

< 1> A. No, sir, I don't.< 2> Q. There is nothing on the CAD messages, let me< 3> tell you, to assist us. I know we heard that not< 4> everything gets put onto the CAD, there is nothing< 5> there, are you speculating?< 6> A. No, the difficulty with the radio system is that< 7> I would carry two radios, one of the radios would be< 8> what I call a channel 3 main set radio, that was< 9> directly to Scotland Yard. The other radio I would<10> monitor or have to try to monitor two channels, one<11> would be the local police station, the other one<12> would be the channel we call 93 which is an internal<13> TSG channel. Not all officers would be on the<14> Plumstead system or the TSG system.<15> Q. Do you remember any message coming over whatever<16> radio about the suspects having gone off down Dickson<17> Road?<18> A. No, sir.<19> Q. Right. Do you remember receiving any<20> information from Constable Bethel to similar effect?<21> A. No, sir, I do not.<22> Q. If what she told us is correct, that she had<23> pointed this out to other officers that arrived at<24> the scene and they searched Dickson Road, presumably<25> those would not have been officers under your command

. P-1330

< 1> or you would have known about it?< 2> A. No, I would agree with that. There was only us< 3> there at that time. There was not anybody else.< 4> Q. Obviously it would have been important if there< 5> was a possibility of the suspects being in the< 6> neighbourhood to get out of there quickly?< 7> A. That is right, sir, essential I would say.< 8> Q. It did not happen until much later you say?< 9> A. No, sir.<10> Q. Let us go back to your original 1993 statement<11> at page 304, please. That refers about 8 lines down<12> to your giving instructions to Constable Clutterbuck,<13> that may be an error, may it not, for reasons we<14> looked at before. It seems he was the driver on 324<15> and that was not the first van on the scene?<16> A. It is possible, sir.<17> Q. You described then setting about erecting a<18> cordon, is that right, sealing off the immediate<19> area?<20> A. Where Stephen was lying, yes, it was certainly<21> going through my mind at that time.<22> Q. Your statement says, forgive me, inspector, that<23> a cordon was put in. I am not talking about what was<24> going through your mind?<25> A. A cordon was put in.

. P-1331

< 1> Q. Was that the next priority as you saw it?< 2> A. Yes.< 3> Q. Rather than trying to find out what had happened< 4> and whether there might be any suspects to chase, was< 5> to erect the cordon?< 6> A. Yes, sir, I wanted that bit sealed off.< 7> Q. You were, of course, the senior officer present< 8> at this stage, were you not?< 9> A. That is correct.<10> Q. Would you therefore regard yourself as having<11> been in charge of the scene?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. You having done that, according to your<14> statement, sealed off this area, and having<15> ascertained your statement says an ambulance had been<16> called, that must have involved speaking to somebody<17> there, presumably?<18> A. Well, I satisfied myself, that was priority. I<19> had to satisfied myself from whatever means that an<20> ambulance had been called and that it was on way.<21> Q. Do forgive me, Inspector, there is no guile in<22> my questions. I can only ask simple ones, it goes<23> with my personality. You must have said to<24> somebody: "Has an ambulance been called"?<25> A. That's right.

. P-1332

< 1> Q. And somebody said, you cannot remember who,< 2> said: "Yes, it is on the way"?< 3> A. We could have checked with Plumstead or called< 4> call one ourselves.< 5> Q. Then according to your statement the next thing< 6> you did was to follow the trail of blood?< 7> A. No, I think that is wrong.< 8> Q. Right. What is the next thing you did?< 9> A. I did follow a trail of blood, but only after I<10> had spoken to the same WPC Bethel at Dickson Road and<11> that was after coming back from the Welcome Inn with<12> Hodges, Constable Hodges.<13> Q. So this is in the wrong order?<14> A. Yes, sir, I would say yes it is.<15> Q. Your statement obviously deals with that first,<16> does it not?<17> A. Well --<18> Q. Bear with me, go over the page to page 305, it<19> then does deal with the Welcome Inn?<20> A. That's right.<21> Q. Is that right?<22> A. That's right.<23> Q. Let me ask you about the Welcome Inn then. How<24> did you get to the Welcome Inn first?<25> A. I walked.

. P-1333

< 1> Q. With?< 2> A. PC Hodges.< 3> Q. We have heard where that is, that is a bit< 4> further up Well Hall Road away from the roundabout< 5> going North?< 6> A. Yes, sir it is.< 7> Q. Why did you go there?< 8> A. I dealt with incidents there in the past, 1986< 9> onwards, when I was on an another unit, I will not go<10> into that unless you want me to.<11> Q. No, no.<12> A. It was the first place I could think of where<13> there may have been trouble or there could have been<14> trouble or there was trouble.<15> Q. Had you been given any inkling as to what had<16> happened to Stephen Lawrence, apart from the fact<17> that you had been told he had been assaulted with an<18> iron bar and had serious head injuries?<19> A. No, sir.<20> Q. Had you asked anybody at the scene if they could<21> assist with what had happened?<22> A. Yes.<23> Q. What were you told?<24> A. I did not have any information.<25> Q. The very distraught young man who was there who

. P-1334

< 1> was Duwayne Brooks, we have heard, and I have shown< 2> you the passage from WPC Bethel's statement, she< 3> managed to calm him down sufficiently to get some< 4> account from him about what had happened, but that< 5> was never passed to you?< 6> A. No, sir, I don't think so. I carried on walking< 7> to the pub.< 8> Q. Just in case the incident had had something to< 9> do with trouble in the pub?<10> A. Yes, that's right.<11> Q. You went to the pub, did you go inside?<12> A. Yes, I did.<13> Q. Did you speak to people in there?<14> A. I think I spoke to everybody.<15> Q. I am not going ask you any great detail about<16> that. If it is relevant I suppose others will. You<17> learned nothing from that?<18> A. No, nothing at all.<19> Q. You came out again, presumably, you and Hodges.<20> Where did go then?<21> A. We walked straight back to the scene where<22> Stephen was lying.<23> Q. Where was your van and the rest of your relief,<24> the rest of your officers serving on that van when<25> you had gone to the pub?

. P-1335

< 1> A. Sergeant Clement and the rest of the officers< 2> were conducting a search, an immediate search of the< 3> area.< 4> Q. Who told them to do that?< 5> A. I did.< 6> Q. When you say an immediate search of the area,< 7> can you be more specific as to what area?< 8> A. I have a map here in front of me, I would say< 9> the immediate vicinity really, a number of streets in<10> all directions. There are an awful lot of streets in<11> that area, they could not have covered them all. I<12> told Clement to go and search the immediate area.<13> Q. Do we get this in the right order, this is as<14> you were going off to make the enquiry at the pub?<15> A. Not just that.<16> Q. I am just trying to get things in the right<17> order. You decide to go to make the enquiry at the<18> pub?<19> A. That's right.<20> Q. Did you tell Clement before you went that he was<21> to organise this search?<22> A. Yes, sir.<23> Q. Would that be with just the officers from his<24> van or from other vans?<25> A. The difficulty was that nobody had arrived. It

. P-1336

< 1> would have been just Clement and that one vehicle.< 2> Q. 6 constables or so?< 3> A. 4, I would think.< 4> Q. You told him to do that, what were you telling< 5> him to search for?< 6> A. Well, anybody who may have been involved in this< 7> assault, evidence, anybody who knows may have done< 8> did.< 9> Q. So at this stage they were searching for people<10> rather than things, were they?<11> A. That's right, yes.<12> Q. Did you just leave it to him and say look around<13> the area or something?<14> A. That's right, sir.<15> Q. A mobile search in the van, presumably?<16> A. That's right.<17> Q. As far as you know that is what they did, I say<18> as far as you know, you were not with them?<19> A. Yes that's right.<20> Q. So when you walked back to the scene, you did<21> not go back on the van to the scene, was the van<22> present, your carrier that is?<23> A. I do not recall seeing the van. I walked back<24> straight back to the scene.<25> Q. What did you do next? Let me ask you this, when

. P-1337

< 1> you got back to the scene had the ambulance come and< 2> gone?< 3> A. Stephen was not there any more and neither was< 4> Duwayne Brooks.< 5> Q. I think on that basis we can be reasonably< 6> confident the ambulance had come and gone?< 7> A. The ambulance had come and gone.< 8> Q. You get back to the scene and what do you do< 9> then?<10> A. I walked to Dickson Road where I saw the same<11> people that were with Stephen earlier were now<12> cordoning off a section of Dickson Road and Well Hall<13> Road.<14> Q. Yes. You got to them, did you then find out<15> what allegedly had happened?<16> A. I said to WPC Bethel, I asked her what she was<17> doing and she told me there were spots of blood and<18> they were treating that as a crime scene and they<19> were taping it off.<20> Q. Yes. This is by Dickson Road now, is it?<21> A. Yes that's right, Dickson Road.<22> Q. What else did she tell you about what had<23> happened?<24> A. I think by then we knew, or the information had<25> been passed to all of us, or certainly to us, that we

. P-1338

< 1> were looking for something more specific, that we had< 2> 5 or 6 white youths. I think it was possibly at that< 3> time I had that information.< 4> Q. Did the information include where the white< 5> youths, the 5 or 6 white youths had apparently gone?< 6> A. I am not sure sir, quite possibly.< 7> Q. You do not recall?< 8> A. No, sir, not really.< 9> Q. Were you engaged then with the other officers in<10> the vicinity of the Dickson Road, Well Hall Road<11> junction for a while? You obviously were as you were<12> talking to them?<13> A. Yes, I was.<14> Q. What did you do after that?<15> A. I think the local officers, there was some local<16> officers arriving and I think certain areas<17> Sandby Green, Cobbett Road, Dickson Road, Downman<18> Road were beginning to be cordoned off. They weren't<19> my officers doing that.<20> Q. If we look in your statement, please, it is<21> sufficient for you to see, it is on the screen?<22> A. Yes, sir it is.<23> Q. You see where that redaction is?<24> A. Um.<25> Q. Where there is a reference to a Barry Nugent?

. P-1339

< 1> A. Yes, I can see it.< 2> Q. Immediately before that your statement refers to< 3> a group of people gathering.< 4> A. Yes I can see that.< 5> Q. This is near to Dickson Road, is it not?< 6> A. Yes.< 7> Q. And then you asked: "Did anyone see what< 8> happened earlier?"< 9> A. That's right.<10> Q. That appears to be the first time you asked<11> anybody what had happened earlier; is that right?<12> A. Well, it is the first time I asked them.<13> Q. No, anybody?<14> A. I am not with you.<15> Q. Had you asked anybody else previously what<16> happened?<17> A. I said I did. I asked the people at the scene<18> initially.<19> Q. They did not tell you?<20> A. No, I got nothing from them.<21> Q. You refer then to this gentlemen, Mr Nugent?<22> A. That's right.<23> Q. Whose address has been blanked out in the<24> statement. I not know whether there is any<25> sensitivity about it or not, suffice it to say we

. P-1340

< 1> know from other sources he lived directly opposite< 2> Dickson Road on Well Hall Road, and he gave you some< 3> information about screaming and shouting?< 4> A. That's right.< 5> Q. At about 10.20 and an argument in the middle of< 6> the road?< 7> A. That's right.< 8> Q. And about 4 or 5 men running off into< 9> Dickson Road, "4 or 5 men, white, one in shirt<10> sleeves, not that old".<11> A. That's right.<12> Q. The other two blokes, he said, went up Well Hall<13> Road. From what we know now, he was plainly<14> describing this incident?<15> A. That's right, sir, yes.<16> Q. Was that then do we understand it in effect the<17> very first time you had any information about what<18> had happened?<19> A. Yes, I think so.<20> Q. Presumably, Inspector, you recorded that<21> information from Mr Nugent at the time?<22> A. I had a clipboard with me and I was making notes<23> on that.<24> Q. Your statement contains what purports to be -- I<25> do not mean this in any rude or pejorative way -- the

. P-1341

< 1> exact conversation that must have come from a note of< 2> some sort.< 3> A. I must have written that down on something.< 4> Q. And translated it into your statement?< 5> A. That is right, sir.< 6> Q. I think if we can look on the screen at PCA 37,< 7> page 2, Inspector, you may not have seen this< 8> document before or you may have done, it comes from< 9> the Kent papers, it is their attempt to reconstruct a<10> diary of information and the like received?<11> A. Right.<12> Q. Have you seen it?<13> A. No, I have not seen this before.<14> Q. We are using this as a working document for<15> these purposes. The third item down against 22nd<16> April, top box: "Eye witness Barry Nugent, lives<17> opposite Dickson Road, saw white youths run off."<18> Right?<19> A. Yes.<20> Q. That has been given a time of 11.30 pm. We<21> cannot find any note relating to that. The reference<22> that is given to a statement is to a witness<23> statement made by him the following day. I think it<24> is reasonable to infer that that time must have come<25> from you because it was you who spoke with him and

. P-1342

< 1> you presumably reported what you had been told?< 2> A. I would say certainly reasonable. I would have< 3> thought it would have been a bit earlier than that.< 4> Q. The only document we have the time is put on at< 5> 11.30 or thereabouts?< 6> A. That is quite possible sir, I would have thought< 7> it was would been a bit earlier than that because< 8> that was the time I spoke to Mr Benn.< 9> Q. Face to face is that or by radio?<10> A. No, my Chief Superintendent when he arrived at<11> the scene, that is the only reason why I say 11.30<12> seems a bit late to speak to Mr Nugent.<13> Q. You have given us a description of what you have<14> been doing since you arrived at the scene, if<15> anything particularly turns on the timing, doubtless<16> you will be asked further questions about it.<17> You, having had that conversation with<18> Mr Nugent -- go back to the statement -- go onto 306,<19> thank you.<20> You finish off dealing with that conversation<21> with Nugent. You get nothing from anybody else?<22> A. No, sir.<23> Q. Then you say: "Following a short briefing dog<24> handlers, et cetera commenced a search." The short<25> briefing was given by whom, you?

. P-1343

< 1> A. Yes, sir, it was.< 2> Q. What was the brief that you gave to the< 3> searchers?< 4> A. I think by the time the dog handlers turned up< 5> it was after 11.30. I do not think at that time I< 6> still did not know what Stephen -- what had hit him< 7> or assaulted him or stabbed him or anything. I do< 8> not think I knew at that time. The briefing that I< 9> would have given them would have been short and I<10> would have told them an area that I wanted searched<11> by the dogs for any form of weapon, any form of<12> weapon. Anything at all that could have assaulted<13> Stephen.<14> Q. The information you had received at this stage,<15> as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong, is that<16> there had been an assault with and iron bar?<17> A. That is right. I don't think at that time I had<18> any further information to add to that.<19> Q. Looking ahead a little, do you recollect that<20> there was any time at the scene where you realised,<21> in fact, Stephen Lawrence had been stabbed?<22> A. We were told at the scene at some stage and long<23> before we did the thorough search of the area we were<24> told that he had died of his injuries and that he had<25> been stabbed. Now, of course, we had something

. P-1344

< 1> specific to look for.< 2> Q. It appears, if this helps us to try and< 3> reconstruct the timing if it matters, that from the< 4> CAD record at least information as to Stephen's death< 5> was broadcast at 23.43. I am look at PCA 45 at 332.< 6> Do you see it?< 7> A. Yes.< 8> Q. I do not think there is anything on the CAD< 9> messages in relation to dissemination of information<10> that he was stabbed. We, at least, all agree on<11> that?<12> A. I can see that.<13> Q. You knew by about quarter to midnight,<14> pre-supposing you had your radio with you, as I<15> imagine you did, that Stephen was dead?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. You had some recollection, do you, of some point<18> of being told he had died from stab wounds?<19> A. That's right, sir.<20> Q. You are not able to help us as to when?<21> A. What time I knew that he died of stab wounds?<22> Q. Yes, yes?<23> A. No, no, I am sorry.<24> Q. Your statement at page 306 of volume 38 gives<25> some general description of what the search or

. P-1345

< 1> searches involved and who was involved in them. I am< 2> not going to go through that with you, suffice it to< 3> say, that your account is that a variety of streets< 4> in the neighbourhood were directed by you to searched< 5> by police, some with dogs; is that right?< 6> A. That is right, sir, yes.< 7> Q. Including people's gardens?< 8> A. That's right.< 9> Q. Were torches used?<10> A. The main search that happened at midnight, yeah,<11> we were using dragon lights, very powerful torches.<12> Q. Initially, at least you were looking for a metal<13> bar, and iron bar?<14> A. No, no, not at that time. We did other searches<15> as well. Both sides of the road were searched. When<16> I had enough officers available, before the main<17> search, we had other searches too. Both sides of the<18> roads were searched. They were not as thoroughly<19> searched when I had the available manpower plus the<20> dogs.<21> Q. This is the search between midnight and 1 in the<22> morning?<23> A. That was a thorough structured search. That was<24> very different to what happened earlier on the other<25> searches.

. P-1346

< 1> Q. You say "a thorough structured search", who< 2> maintain a record of which gardens had been< 3> searched? Which areas?< 4> A. I did.< 5> Q. You did?< 6> A. I did.< 7> Q. House-by-house or street-by-street?< 8> A. Absolutely everything, positions of vehicles,< 9> sketches, houses, dustbins, anything that would have<10> been of interest. There was only one person<11> recording notes and that was me. I would not expect<12> the other officers to do that. They could not do it<13> anyway; it would not have been practicable. I think<14> that search, i think it is a fair comment to make<15> now, the one that happened at midnight, the main<16> search, as the very, very thorough search.<17> Q. The problem, Mr Groves, as I anticipate is that<18> the notes, and you say you were the only person<19> keeping them, do not exist anymore or are not<20> available to us?<21> A. I can only say I made very comprehensive notes.<22> I was challenged to what I was writing by Mr Benn.<23> Q. How mean officers approximately, I know you<24> named quite a few, but how many officers<25> approximately were involved in the searching?

. P-1347

< 1> A. I cannot remember. Possibly a dozen, 15.< 2> Possibly even more than that.< 3> Q. Were they all searching in the same area at the< 4> same time? Did they go down, you know, one street< 5> like in a group or what?< 6> A. They would -- that search, the thorough search,< 7> would be coordinated -- that has to be coordinated.< 8> It was coordinated by me. I think Sergeant Clement< 9> was assisting me with that search, but the person<10> coordinating the search and the dogs and their<11> handlers or certainly the dog handlers, not the dogs,<12> would have been me. You have to have someone -- that<13> has to be carefully, as I said, coordinated.<14> Q. Forgive me, all I am trying to ascertain at the<15> moment is whether the officers conducting the search<16> did so in one swarm, so to speak, or whether they<17> broke off into a small search?<18> A. I am with you. I did not understand. They<19> would have done that, using your words, in one swarm.<20> Q. With you following up making notes?<21> A. I was either behind them or in front of them.<22> My job was purely to direct them as to exactly where<23> I wanted them, stop them wandering off, getting too<24> far or behind and then I would be making notes.<25> Well, I did make notes.

. P-1348

< 1> Q. Of everywhere searched?< 2> A. That's right, sir.< 3> Q. Nothing, in fact, was found, was it?< 4> A. I have a feeling that the only thing one of them< 5> found was -- I do not think it was anything to do< 6> with this. I think it was a salt pot. It was the< 7> only thing metalic that was found. I don't think< 8> they found a weapon of any sort.< 9> Q. Were they being instructed to look just for<10> weapons or for anything else?<11> A. By then they would have been instructed to look<12> for suspects as well, but mainly a weapon. This is<13> why the search would have been very, very thorough.<14> Q. You suggest that they were looking for suspects<15> between midnight and 1 in the morning?<16> A. This would have been automatic, they may have<17> looked for suspects.<18> Q. Forgive me, you had had the report through that<19> the assault had taken place at about 20 minutes to<20> 11?<21> A. Yes, that's right.<22> Q. This is a search being carried out between<23> midnight and 1 in the morning of the immediately<24> surrounding streets.<25> A. That's right.

. P-1349

< 1> Q. You are telling us that the officers were< 2> directed -- looking for suspects?< 3> A. The officers certainly by then would have had a< 4> briefing by me, yes.< 5> Q. They did not find any suspects, did they?< 6> A. No, sir, they did not.< 7> Q. They did not find anything else apart from the< 8> salt pot?< 9> A. Nothing of relevance to this, no.<10> Q. That goes on for an hour or so; is that right?<11> A. That's right, yes.<12> Q. Then what happened?<13> A. I think then it was case of when we had done at<14> the scene what we could do, liaising with the CID<15> officers at the scene, and then I had to make the<16> decision if there was nothing else useful that my<17> officers could do, to stand them down.<18> Q. That is what happened, is it?<19> A. Yes.<20> Q. Tell us about this: was a report made to you<21> that night about the red Astra? Does that mean<22> anything to you?<23> A. No, sir. I don't think so. I don't recall.<24> Q. A car with four or five white youths,<25> apparently, or white youngsters in it, driving up and

. P-1350

< 1> down< 2> West Hall Road with the occupants apparently laughing< 3> at what had been going on?< 4> A. I don't recall that.< 5> MR LAWSON: I hope I did not confuses you, Well Hall< 6> Road?< 7> A. I don't recall that, no.< 8> Q. Seen allegedly by Sergeant Hodges, as he now is,< 9> and dealt with by Mr Clement and him?<10> A. I was not with Hodges and Clement for very long.<11> Q. Do you not know anything about this at all? I<12> hope I am doing justice to it. It is suggested there<13> is evidence, having seen this car, that Clement put<14> out a radio message to try to get it to stop?<15> A. I accept that, of course.<16> Q. But no one told you anything about that?<17> A. No, sir, I don't think so.<18> Q. How long were you the officer in charge of the<19> scene; ie, how long was it before somebody else of<20> higher rank turned up?<21> A. Chief Superintendent Benn, he was the area<22> operation's chief superintendent, he turned up at the<23> scene think around 11.30 with one of the dog<24> handlers. He introduced himself to me then. I am<25> not sure how long he was at the scene.

. P-1351

< 1> Q. Do you know any other officers? What about< 2> DI Jeynes, do you know him?< 3> A. I had never seen him before that night. I know< 4> him now.< 5> Q. Do you remember him turning up.< 6> A. I remember -- all I can say is that all I< 7> remember is officers turning up. I remember officers< 8> that weren't in uniform. They turned up and, yes, I< 9> spoke to them.<10> Q. You were asked by Kent about their being no<11> scene log?<12> A. Yes, sir, I was.<13> Q. I think I paraphrased this. I think you told<14> them that a scene log was not really a concept you<15> were familiar with?<16> A. I think I went to great lengths actually to<17> explain what a scene log -- what I perceive to be a<18> scene log and when one should be kept. In this case<19> there was not a need for a scene log. I did not keep<20> one.<21> Q. You did keep, you told us, on your clipboard<22> details of what had been done?<23> A. That's right.<24> Q. That is now not available?<25> A. That's right, sir.

. P-1352

< 1> Q. Let me ask you two other things, Inspector, the< 2> first is this: tell the Inquiry, will you please, of< 3> your reaction to the suggestion that first aid was< 4> withheld from Stephen Lawrence because you and others< 5> did not wish to dirty your hands with a black man's< 6> blood?< 7> A. I find that extremely disappointing.< 8> First aid was administered. It was administered< 9> properly. I find that suggestion very disappointing.<10> Q. Secondly, and in relation to first aid, can I<11> ask you about this: you made a supplemental, WIT 1.<12> You made two short statements for the assistance of<13> the Inquiry. One, basically, adopting your previous<14> statements and this one which is now on the screen.<15> Do you recognise that?<16> A. Yes, sir.<17> Q. Dealing with a specific query in relation to<18> first aid?<19> A. Yes.<20> Q. Whether there was a specialist first aider on<21> the crew that night, yes?<22> A. Yes, sir, I remember that.<23> Q. We will deal with this briefly. You indicated<24> that you were not aware, certainly at that time, of<25> there being any requirement for there to be such a

. P-1353

< 1> specialist or medic to be carried on on carriers?< 2> A. That's right.< 3> Q. That was not something that was the custom< 4> certainly in 1993?< 5> A. That is right.< 6> Q. As your statement makes clear in July 1993 you< 7> left the TSG so you cannot obviously speak?< 8> A. That's right.< 9> MR LAWSON: Yes, thank you.<10> THE CHAIRMAN: Rather unusually I want to ask you<11> question or two before you are cross-examined just to<12> clear my mind on one or two things. You said that<13> Mr Benn asked you what you were writing?<14> A. That's right, sir.<15> Q. That is the Chief Superintendent to whom you<16> refer?<17> A. Yes, that's right, sir.<18> Q. It sounded as if you were rather upset by that.<19> I am not sure if that is right. What was the point<20> of mentioning that?<21> A. Mr Benn when he arrived I have not seen him<22> before and he introduced himself to me and we shook<23> hands, we had a short conversation and he asked me<24> what I was writing. I said I am writing the notes<25> and I am putting your name down and the time he said

. P-1354

< 1> fine.< 2> Q. I see. Next this, you mentioned him, you have< 3> not mentioned Mr McIvor. Did you see him at the< 4> scene?< 5> A. No, sir.< 6> Q. The Senior Divisional Officer on duty?< 7> A. No, sir.< 8> Q. Was there any other officer senior in rank to< 9> you there until about 1.30 when you left?<10> A. Sir, that would have been possible. I did not<11> see anybody at all, I did not speak to anybody.<12> Q. I am right in thinking that you regarded<13> yourself as in command, I you use that word on<14> purpose, "in command" of all that was happening from<15> the time you arrived until 1.30?<16> A. That's right sir, yes<17> THE CHAIRMAN: We will break until 3.35.<18> (A Short Adjournment)<19> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR MANSFIELD<20> Q. Officer, I represent Mr and Mrs Lawrence and I<21> want to ask you questions on their behalf and I want<22> to first of all ensure that you have seen a notice<23> that was issued on their behalf with regard to you.<24> Have you seen that?<25> A. I do not know what you are talking about, sir, I

. P-1355

< 1> am sorry.< 2> Q. You do not.< 3> THE CHAIRMAN: Here you are, Mr Mansfield (Handed).< 4> MR MANSFIELD: Would you just glance over that.< 5> THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.< 6> Q. Have you seen that before?< 7> A. Yes, sir.< 8> Q. That is the notice. So everybody knows exactly< 9> what it is that is being suggested on behalf of<10> Mrs Lawrence and Mr Lawrence in relation to you, I<11> just want to pick out some of those and then I am<12> going to develop them.<13> First of all it is suggested on their behalf<14> that you failed to take proper control of the scene<15> upon arrival as the first senior officer.<16> Secondly, you failed to discover relevant<17> information in order to exercise proper control.<18> Thirdly, that you failed to order and monitor an<19> effective and immediate search for offenders by means<20> of mobile, house-to-house and witness search.<21> Fourthly, that failure of 1 to 3 arose because<22> of your assumptions about the nature of the offence<23> and the victim - race.<24> I leave 5 and 6 for the moment.<25> 7, that is it impossible to ascertain which

. P-1356

< 1> carrier you were on, that all the indications you< 2> weren't on U 326.< 3> I leave 8 for the moment.< 4> Those suggestions have been made clear to you< 5> before giving evidence today?< 6> A. Yes, they have, sir.< 7> Q. You are also aware, are you not, as to the terms< 8> of reference of this Inquiry put generally, in other< 9> words, looking into what happened at the scene in<10> particular and the immediate aftermath and whether<11> anything went wrong and whether anything could be put<12> right for the future. I am putting it generally, you<13> understand that?<14> A. Yes, of course.<15> Q. The first question I want to ask you, officer,<16> is looking back on it all now, is there anything you<17> think first of all that went wrong as the senior<18> officer between 11 and 1.30 in the morning with the<19> investigation under you?<20> A. No, sir, I don't think so.<21> Q. Nothing?<22> A. With the investigation, no.<23> Q. I mean, as far as we can see, on your account<24> you went to a lot of trouble and found nothing; is<25> that fair according to you?

. P-1357

< 1> A. Yes, sir, I think that would be fair.< 2> Q. Right. I am going to suggest to you that there< 3> was a great deal more that you could have done which< 4> might have resulted in something, it might not, do< 5> you follow?< 6> A. Yes, sir, certainly.< 7> Q. Do you agree that in fact time is of the< 8> essence?< 9> A. Absolutely.<10> Q. To use your own words to the Kent<11> investigation: "Unless you search an area thoroughly<12> and quickly, then you are losing evidence all of the<13> time"?<14> A. That's right, sir.<15> Q. You agree?<16> A. I agree with that.<17> Q. And I suggest to you that you were losing<18> evidence every minute that went by that night, were<19> you not?<20> A. I would absolutely agree with you.<21> Q. Right. Now, the only difference between us is<22> whether you bear any responsibility. Do you accept<23> that you bear some responsibility for that?<24> A. Yes sir, of course.<25> Q. Right. So where did it go wrong, officer?

. P-1358

< 1> A. Where did what go wrong?< 2> Q. Your task as the senior officer that night;< 3> where did it go wrong?< 4> A. I am not sure that it did.< 5> Q. You are not sure that it did. Let us start with< 6> some fairly basic matters shall we, officer. I would< 7> like you to think as we go along, and possibly< 8> overnight as well, you will have plenty of time,< 9> whether by the time we finish questioning you might<10> have thought of something that has gone wrong, do you<11> follow?<12> A. Certainly, of course.<13> Q. Let us start with a fairly basic matter: Which<14> carrier were you on when you went to the scene?<15> A. I am not sure.<16> Q. You are not sure?<17> A. The carrier that had Clement on it and Hodges on<18> it, uniform 325, I believe.<19> Q. Do you?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. You think Clement was on 325, do you?<22> A. Yes, I do.<23> Q. What do you base that on?<24> A. The fact that I sat next to him on the carrier.<25> Q. Did you? So you really cannot forget that much,

. P-1359

< 1> you can remember him sitting on the carrier?< 2> A. I can remember being with Clement, yes.< 3> Q. I am sorry to ask this particular question, but< 4> who was driving the carrier that night, 325 with< 5> Clement?< 6> A. I am not sure.< 7> Q. You are not sure?< 8> A. I am not sure, no.< 9> Q. Who else was on the carrier 325 with you?<10> A. I think Samantha Norrie, now Tatton and Andrew's<11> Hodges. I cannot remember the others, there would<12> have been other officers as well.<13> Q. Yes, I appreciate that. That is a clear<14> recollection you have of those named officers that<15> you have just given, Clement, Tatton, Norrie as she<16> was, Hodges on that vehicle 325?<17> A. That is a fairly clear recollection.<18> Q. That is a fairly clear recollection?<19> A. Yes, it is.<20> Q. So, first of all, it may be just a slip, if you<21> were with them that is not 325, do you follow, would<22> you like to reconsider it, I do not want to catch you<23> out, that is not the intention at all.<24> A. Well, I am telling you who I was with.<25> Q. They are not 325 according to them?

. P-1360

< 1> A. I was with Clement, Hodges Tatton and some< 2> others.< 3> Q. Did you say 325 because you are wanting to keep< 4> your options open because of what your statement< 5> says?< 6> A. Hodges was in charge of uniform 325. That was< 7> his team.< 8> Q. Was it?< 9> A. Um, sorry, Clement.<10> Q. Clement was in charge of 325, was he?<11> A. Yes.<12> Q. You were the supervising officer that night,<13> were you?<14> A. Yes, I was.<15> Q. Clement was the officer in charge of 326?<16> A. Was he?<17> Q. Was he? Well, do not ask me, I am asking you.<18> Could you very kindly just think back. If you do not<19> know, officer, will you please say, either I do not<20> know or I haven't got clue, whatever words you want<21> to use.<22> A. I can say as far as the call sign of the vehicle<23> is concerned, I am not sure. I am certainly sure who<24> I was with that night. I have said that to you<25> twice.

. P-1361

< 1> Q. I appreciate that and therefore could we now< 2> have your statement, PCA 38 303. Before we get going< 3> on this, Mr Groves, I am going to suggest this< 4> Inquiry cannot rely on a single word you are saying.< 5> Do you think you are totally unreliable?< 6> A. No, sir.< 7> Q. You don't. Right. This statement, you will see< 8> it now, it is up on the screen, was dated 11/5/93.< 9> Do you see the date?<10> A. Yes, I see it.<11> Q. Do you recognise that you said a bit earlier on<12> today that you thought when you made this statement<13> you probably had your notes with you?<14> A. Yes, sir.<15> Q. Yes. That would be the clipboard notes, would<16> it?<17> A. I would think so, yes.<18> Q. The very detailed notes with little diagrams and<19> so on on it?<20> A. Yes, I have said yes.<21> Q. Yes, you said yes. Before we get going on this<22> statement, if the statement was taken from the notes<23> then really what we see in the statement derives from<24> the notes?<25> A. Yes.

. P-1362

< 1> Q. Yes. I want to ask you very carefully about< 2> those notes, when did you last see them?< 3> A. 1993.< 4> Q. Yes. You made them on a clipboard that night;< 5> what did you do with them?< 6> A. At the request of the incident room, I took them< 7> to Shooters Hill.< 8> Q. Shooters Hill. When?< 9> A. A little while later.<10> Q. When? The same day? The next day? Within a<11> week?<12> A. I am not sure.<13> Q. I would like you to think?<14> A. Well, I have thought about it for five years.<15> Q. I am sure you have.<16> A. You will get the same answer: I am not sure.<17> Q. You are not sure?<18> A. I am not sure when I took my notes to<19> Shooters Hill.<20> Q. Who did you hand them to?<21> A. I put them where I was told to put them.<22> Q. Where was that?<23> A. In a tray -- a tray on a desk together with a<24> lot of other trays.<25> Q. Who told you to do that?

. P-1363

< 1> A. If I recall, it was a woman from the Inquiry< 2> team.< 3> Q. A woman from the Inquiry team?< 4> A. Somebody in the office.< 5> Q. She said: "Put them in the intray", or something< 6> like that?< 7> A. Whatever.< 8> Q. Whatever?< 9> A. Whatever.<10> Q. This clipboard with the notes on, the reason I<11> am asking you, so it is clear to you, I suggest there<12> is a very strong possibility that there were never<13> any notes. Do you follow, Mr Groves?<14> A. Yes, I do.<15> Q. Were the notes on this clipboard written on any<16> kind of police notepaper?<17> A. No, they weren't.<18> Q. What was the paper you were using?<19> A. A4 paper.<20> Q. Just A4 paper you happened to have with you?<21> A. I carried a briefcase with me that had all sorts<22> of things in it including A4 paper.<23> Q. Was it police issued paper?<24> A. It was normal photocopying paper.<25> Q. How mean sheets were involved, roughly speaking?

. P-1364

< 1> A. I don't know, sir. I could not answer that.< 2> Q. It would be fair to say, more than one, given< 3> how much detail you said you were taking down at the< 4> scene?< 5> A. Quite a few.< 6> Q. Quite a few. I do not want to exaggerate it,< 7> but would it be fair to say three or more?< 8> A. Quite probably.< 9> Q. Three or more sheets?<10> A. Umm.<11> Q. You appreciate the whole of this matter has been<12> investigated by another police force?<13> A. It has been investigated extremely thoroughly by<14> another police force.<15> Q. Extremely thoroughly?<16> A. Yes.<17> Q. And the notes have never come to light, have<18> they?<19> A. No, they haven't.<20> MR MANSFIELD: Sorry, somebody rushing to your rescue<21> with the notes.<22> Now, the thorough investigation has not turned<23> up the notes, nor has it turned up anybody who has<24> seen the notes, Officer?<25> A. No, that is right, sir.

. P-1365

< 1> Q. Yes. That means actually seeing the notes from< 2> Shooters Hill onwards in the system or backwards into< 3> the scene. No one has seen these notes with< 4> diagrams, dustbins and all the rest of it, no-one but< 5> you?< 6> A. It would certainly make both our lives very much< 7> easier had I got my notes.< 8> Q. Yes. Had you a habit, though, at the time,< 9> according to you, s you told Kent. Do you remember<10> what the habit was you claimed?<11> A. What habit?<12> Q. Yes, with your notes. Just in case they were<13> mislaid?<14> A. Copying them, photocopying them.<15> Q. That is it, yes. Did you photocopy this set<16> before you handed them in?<17> A. Very possibly, yes.<18> Q. No, a bit more than that, was it not? You told<19> Kent, so that we can cut it a little bit short: "I<20> am pretty certain I kept copies of those notes."<21> That is what you told page 49, 112. Can you have a<22> look at that passage so you see the context. There<23> we are at the top. "I took my original notes in a<24> sealed envelope", no less. "I am pretty certain that<25> I kept copies those notes." You talk about

. P-1366

< 1> photocopying in other places as well. Now, what< 2> happened to the photocopies.< 3> A. I can certainly tell you what happened. I keep< 4> copies of most documents or cases that I think I< 5> might need. I certainly think I would have kept< 6> copies of this.< 7> Q. Yes. So where are they?< 8> A. This is 5 years ago. I have not heard anything< 9> about this matter until a year ago, last March. I<10> have not got my copies any more.<11> Q. This case ----<12> A. Again -- let me finish. Again, it would help<13> not only me, but it would help this Inquiry if I<14> could find my copies. I have not got them. I cannot<15> say more than that. I can not elaborate on that. I<16> have not got have my copies of the notes and it would<17> certainly help me if I had them now. I have not got<18> them.<19> Q. Have you destroyed them?<20> A. Very probably, yes.<21> Q. Well, did you and if so when and why did you not<22> tell Kent: "I destroyed them"? That is three<23> questions in one. Did you destroy them?<24> A. I cannot recall destroying them. Very possibly.<25> Q. Why would you destroy them?

. P-1367

< 1> A. I had no reason at the time I thought to keep< 2> them past three years.< 3> Q. This case you knew -- presumably, you knew --< 4> perhaps I had better put it this way. You knew was< 5> trundling on in one way or another? You knew that< 6> from the publicity?< 7> A. Yes, of course.< 8> Q. In one form or another there was an inquest, was< 9> there not? There was a private prosecution all<10> spread over these years. You knew that?<11> A. Of course.<12> Q. As senior officer you would not want to get rid<13> of any personal documentation in case any of those<14> tribunals, call them what you will, courts, might<15> want you to give evidence as the senior officer?<16> A. Sir, I cannot answer that. I can say that since<17> 1993 I have been to two completely different areas<18> and most of my bits and pieces would go with me. So<19> 1 Area headquarters, Charing Cross, back to 1 Area<20> headquarters again.<21> Q. Have you caused inquiries at any of these<22> headquarters on the assumption you have not destroyed<23> them yourself to discover for this inquiry what has<24> happened to those notes?<25> A. My wife and I searched our house very

. P-1368

< 1> thoroughly.< 2> Q. I am really talking about police headquarters?< 3> A. I have searched -- where I am likely to put< 4> things I have searched them very, very thoroughly. I< 5> can't find the notes.< 6> Q. Have you asked anybody else?< 7> A. Irrespective of how you ask me the question, I< 8> will say the same thing to you. I cannot find the< 9> copies. I haven't got them.<10> Q. Do you agree, let us put it shortly ----<11> A. You can keep asking me this in different ways<12> but you'll get the same answer.<13> Q. That is fine. I am much obliged. The answer is<14> that basically you do not know whether the notes are<15> now and you do not know what happened to them, is<16> that it?<17> A. You have just answered it for me, but I would<18> agree with your answer.<19> Q. I am putting it in summary form?<20> A. Yes.<21> Q. Right. Is there any possibility, Officer, that<22> you just never took any notes that night because you<23> were not that bothered about this incident? Is that<24> a possibility?<25> A. No. I can answer that it and is quite a good

. P-1369

< 1> question, may I say. When somebody dies it is< 2> something that I remember for the rest of my life. I< 3> don't just -- whether they are black or white is< 4> irrelevant. If this is what you are getting at?< 5> Q. No, it is not?< 6> A. Yes, it is. When I deal with somebody who dies< 7> -- when I've got to deal with somebody who has died< 8> it remains with you. Not only Stephen but lots of< 9> other people. It remains with you. What are you<10> asking me?<11> Q. Well, I will now deal with even more central<12> matters. When you went to the scene, Mr Groves, you<13> did not treat this as a murder inquiry, did you?<14> A. I think I certainly did. I think I also ----<15> Q. I want you to think very carefully. I do not<16> want you to be -- the question is, when you first<17> went to the scene you did not treat this as a murder<18> inquiry, did you?<19> A. Well, not while Stephen was alive, no.<20> Q. He was dead, I suggest, when you got there?<21> A. I don't think he was. When I knew that Stephen<22> had died this was then something very, very<23> different. It was now a murder inquiry.<24> Q. When you first got to the scene, Officer, do you<25> agree that you did not treat this as a murder

. P-1370

< 1> inquiry, did you?< 2> A. Initially, no, sir.< 3> Q. Let us get utterly clear what you thought about< 4> this when you first got to the scene. What did you< 5> think about it?< 6> A. I thought that what we were dealing with here< 7> was possibly a fight.< 8> Q. A fight?< 9> A. Sir, if you keep interrupting me I shall just<10> slow down. It is important that I am allowed to give<11> my answers here and it not easy with you<12> interrupting. When I arrived at the scene I saw an<13> unconscious person and my concern, if you like, was<14> two-fold. My concern was, who had done that to that<15> person, and I had to think about what I was going to<16> do about finding the person or persons responsible.<17> Q. I am waiting because I do not ----<18> A. I have finished. Please ----<19> Q. Now, may I use these words, which I suggest are<20> your words, when you first got to the scene it was<21> just and assault and that is all.<22> A. It was a serious assault.<23> Q. No, those are yours words. Can we have PCA 49,<24> 79, please. At the top this is an answer to Kent.<25> You can have the previous one?

. P-1371

< 1> A. Yes. I can see what it says, yes, I agree with< 2> you.< 3> Q. What you were saying to Kent was this was an< 4> assault, that is all. That was your attitude when< 5> you first arrived, was it not?< 6> A. No. I think it very important that people in< 7> the room take that not out of context. What I was< 8> dealing with there was an assault. That is all that< 9> I was dealing with, was an assault.<10> Q. In fact, the assault, as you said many times<11> today, you treated as a fight, did you not?<12> A. We had to act on the information that we had.<13> Q. What information did you have that there had<14> been a fight?<15> A. I think that was the call that I had or what was<16> in my mind, there had been a fight, and that somebody<17> had been hit over the head with an iron bar.<18> Q. I am going put to you, Mr Groves, that I suggest<19> to you very clearly this is one of your assumptions<20> because it is a black victim, was it not?<21> A. No, sir. You are accusing me of being a racist<22> now and that is not true. I would like it noted that<23> I do not think that is fair either. You have no<24> evidence that I am racist.<25> Q. If I ask you if you are a racist what will you

. P-1372

< 1> say?< 2> A. Of course I am not. I could not do my job if I< 3> was a racist, it would not be possible, it is not< 4> compatible.< 5> Q. I am not going to ask you an obvious< 6> question----< 7> MR GOMPERTZ: I feel obliged to interrupt. I do not< 8> act for this officer, and I appreciate, sir, you are< 9> well capable of regulating the Inquiry but it seems<10> to me on behalf of the Commissioner all of the<11> witnesses, police officers or others, should be<12> entitled to give their evidence without constant<13> interruption and background noise from those who are<14> attending the Inquiry.<15> I quite understand some aspects may cause mirth<16> and I quite understand that tensions may run high but<17> I thought it right that I should mention it.<18> THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Gompertz, you must realise that<19> permanent interruptions from me are not going to help<20> anybody. I make it crystal clear that if there is<21> laughter in the gallery at answers given by officers<22> who are under heavy fire cross-examination then the<23> public gallery will be cleared.<24> Mr Mansfield, I ask you, if you will, remember<25> that you are eliciting facts. There is no jury,

. P-1373

< 1> there are the four of us and we are aware of the< 2> position of this officer. He does not need to be< 3> pilloried unnecessarily.< 4> MR MANSFIELD: I bear your comments in mind and there< 5> is no intention to unnecessarily pillory but this is< 6> the most important officer, in our submission, at the< 7> scene and he has accepted that he is.< 8> May I just continue on this particular aspect:< 9> you agree that the description you gave to the<10> Kent Police about the events when you first arrived<11> was that you were treating it as an assault that is<12> all, you agree?<13> A. That is right, sir.<14> Q. Secondly, you agree today you describe the<15> assault as a fight and you say that was based on<16> information?<17> A. I think what I said was that is what I thought I<18> was dealing with, an assault, a fight. That is<19> right.<20> Q. I am going ask you carefully, I am going to<21> suggest this is where the approach or the attitude of<22> mind to race is important: you did say before there<23> was the observation that you thought it was<24> information, that that was the message that it was a<25> fight. Is that right that you had information or was

. P-1374

< 1> that an assumption by you?< 2> A. I have now said that five times. I have said< 3> five times that the information that I had was this< 4> was a fight.< 5> Q. Right.< 6> A. Do you want me to say it six times for you,< 7> would that make it clearer for you? This was a< 8> fight, this was the information -- I am not going< 9> elaborate on this.<10> Q. I suggest to you, Mr Groves, I am going to<11> interrupt, there was no information being fed to the<12> police that this man suffered an injury as the result<13> of a fight?<14> A. In that case you are wrong.<15> Q. Where do you say it came from?<16> A. I think the call we got, the original call was<17> possibly from the information room.<18> Q. You see the information that Inquiry has been<19> told was effectively, an assault with an iron bar,<20> quite different to a fight. In other words, somebody<21> being attacked. That was the information, Mr Groves?<22> A. Sir, of course, I would agree with you.<23> Q. You translated, I suggest to you, the<24> information of an assault into, black man on pavement<25> involved in fight. Is that a possibility?

. P-1375

< 1> A. I don't think so. Let us analyse that question:< 2> Is there a possibility -- let me see if I have your< 3> question absolutely right here: is there a< 4> possibility that I translated a black man on a< 5> pavement has been involved in a fight. Of course< 6> that is a possibility, absolutely. Absolutely.< 7> Q. Yes.< 8> A. It is not an assumption it is a possibility, it< 9> is something that I must investigate.<10> I would agree totally with you, if that is what<11> you are saying.<12> Q. If you saw a police officer on the ground with<13> injuries and you had been told an assault with an<14> iron bar would you assume a fight?<15> A. I would have to consider it, of course.<16> Q. Would you, seriously, consider that he had been<17> involved in a fight?<18> A. Seriously, yes. I would have to consider all of<19> the options.<20> Q. On that basis, moving forward, you were asked<21> specifically questions about the race issue, were you<22> not, by Kent?<23> A. Yes.<24> Q. What is the word that you use most regularly to<25> describe non-white people?

. P-1376

< 1> A. Black people.< 2> Q. Do you?< 3> A. Coloured people.< 4> Q. Coloured people is the word you most commonly< 5> use, is it not?< 6> A. I do not know, show me where I use that and I< 7> will agree or disagree with you.< 8> Q. Mr Groves, you mentioned it, you show me?< 9> A. It is very straight forward.<10> Q. May I have PCA 38, 303. I can go through the<11> interviews as well if necessary.<12> Do you see at the bottom:"I saw a young coloured<13> man lying on the footway."<14> A. Yes, of course.<15> Q. So it is, coloured man. First consideration an<16> repetitive consideration is that he has been involved<17> in a fight and it just an assault. Do you see the<18> picture I suggest?<19> A. You see, you change the words around again, that<20> is not what I said at all. I have not assumed that<21> he -- I think I said this, this is why I say this to<22> you because you keep going around in circles. What I<23> said to you, I will say it again for you, what I have<24> seen is a young coloured man lying on the footway. I<25> have to consider, and I have said this to you before,

. P-1377

< 1> all of the options. Has he been involved in a fight,< 2> this is going through my mind, and if he has then< 3> there is other people involved.< 4> If he has not then Duwayne Brooks might have hit< 5> him over the head or anybody else you. Do you see< 6> what I am saying?< 7> Q. Absolutely. Let us deal with Duwayne Brooks?< 8> A. Okay. Do you still want me to answer the bit,< 9> you then went on to say about the coloured man? I am<10> in a sort of a quandary here: he is a white man,<11> that is a coloured woman, (indicating). What else<12> can I say. I have to make some description. I do<13> not think that is being a racist.<14> He is a white man, he is a white man that is a<15> coloured man, (indicating).<16> Q. Could I have PCA 49, 72 please. Just on the<17> question of this word and your attitude an approach,<18> when this allegation was put to you, that is the<19> suggestion that the investigation had been prejudiced<20> by an approach to racial issues you say this: "I find<21> it disappointing." Do you see that sentence?<22> A. That is what I said.<23> Q. "Stephen received proper care and attention. As<24> far as I am concerned he received the best treatment<25> he could have irrespective of colour. I am not

. P-1378

< 1> really bothered about colour, whether somebody is< 2> white or black is totally irrelevant." Do you see< 3> that?< 4> A. Yes. I said that. That is exactly what I said.< 5> Q. I am going to suggest to you, bring it back to< 6> the scene, as it were, did the thought that night,< 7> since you kept all of the options open ever come< 8> across your mind this was a racist attack?< 9> A. Not initially, no.<10> Q. No.<11> A. Not until I had enough information to make,<12> using your word "assumption".<13> Q. When did you first consider the option it was a<14> racist attack?<15> A. Possibly quite late into the incident, I would<16> think.<17> Q. Kindly help us, because you are there until<18> 1.30, is it before you leave the scene?<19> A. Before I left the scene. This is something I<20> discussed with my Chief Superintendent.<21> Q. Mr Benn?<22> A. Mr Benn, um.<23> Q. Can I ask you on the question of senior<24> officers, again I want to know who is participating<25> in decision making; did Mr Benn participate in

. P-1379

< 1> decision making or did he leave it to you?< 2> A. I think Mr Benn made sure I done what I should< 3> be doing or had done historically what I should have< 4> done. He made sure I was going to do what I should< 5> do in the future.< 6> Q. What other senior officers can you recall< 7> discussing what had been done and what should be done< 8> besides Mr Benn?< 9> A. What, at the scene?<10> Q. Yes.<11> A. I can only really remember Mr Benn.<12> Q. You have already been asked About McIvor, you do<13> not remember him?<14> A. No, I don't.<15> Q. What about Jeynes?<16> A. Jeynes. Possibly Philip Jeynes, the<17> Detective Inspector, I spoke to him before I went off<18> duty.<19> Q. What about, more importantly than those two in a<20> sense, an Acting Inspector Little, you have not<21> mentioned him so far?<22> A. I think we agreed very early on in this that I<23> would deal with certain things and he would deal with<24> certain things.<25> Q. That is all very well but who is in charge of

. P-1380

< 1> the scene, who is the officer that takes overall< 2> charge of the scene?< 3> A. Can I say quite openly that I:< 4> 1. Accepted responsibility on the night and now< 5> I will accept responsibility for all of the officers,< 6> including Little.< 7> Q. Right.< 8> A. That is my job.< 9> Q. Having at some stage before you left considered<10> that it might be a racist attack, how did you follow<11> that option up on the night?<12> A. I discussed this with Chief Superintendent Benn<13> and he went back to the area headquarters at Eltham<14> for him to deal with that aspect of it.<15> Q. To do what, as far as you know?<16> A. I can only tell you what he told me, what we<17> were discussing.<18> Q. Which was?<19> A. If I recall Mr Benn asked me if he was required<20> at the scene any longer and I would have said no.<21> Q. Yes.<22> A. Simply because he was just getting in my way.<23> He has done his bit, we have discussed it very<24> thoroughly and now it is time for him to do what he<25> does, to contact Chief Superintendent Philpot and to

. P-1381

< 1> deal with the very much broader issues.< 2> My concern at the scene was to actual scene.< 3> Q. Your concern at the scene was as fast as you< 4> could to ascertain where the offenders might have< 5> gone, that is one of the priorities.< 6> A. I would say that is absolutely right.< 7> Q. If it is a racist attack any information you< 8> could gather about potential suspects who might be< 9> racist would be important?<10> A. Absolutely.<11> Q. What route of information did you access in<12> order to obtain that?<13> A. Well, I said to you that I have spoken to<14> Mr Benn; I have spoken to Mr Jeynes; I have spoken to<15> DC Pye, I think it is, and this would be something<16> that would have to be dealt with later.<17> Q. I am sorry, we have an imminent situation?<18> A. When I say later I do not mean weeks later. I<19> cannot deal with a huge scene and all of the<20> implications of the scene and deal with everything<21> else. I am only one person, I have probably 50<22> people to command. I am not sure where you are going<23> here, you are asking me to deal with the whole<24> Inquiry on my own, which is impossible.<25> Q. Did you delegate the task, since you are in

. P-1382

< 1> charge and you could not do it yourself, of< 2> immediately accessing information on race attacks in< 3> that area and who might be responsible immediately?< 4> A. I was absolutely swamped with what I was doing< 5> and what my officers were doing.< 6> Q. Did you delegate to any other officer< 7> accumulated information, either at the local< 8> collators officer, New Scotland, the Racial Incident< 9> Unit, any of them, did you?<10> A. I didn't sir, no.<11> Q. Did you think of it?<12> A. Well, yes I just said I did.<13> Q. Any of those sources?<14> A. There is certain channels that have to be<15> adhered to. I have answered your question, this is<16> something that I discussed with my senior officer.<17> This is something that he dealt with, as far as I was<18> concerned, through the proper channels.<19> Q. How long was that going to take?<20> A. Hang on let me answer your question, you have a<21> Chief Superintendent, John Philpot, who will have all<22> of your answers, you can ask him this. I cannot<23> answer that. I cannot delegate to a chief<24> superintendent, my officers would not know anything<25> about, not much of the area. All we were concerned

. P-1383

< 1> with was the scene. I cannot delegate to somebody< 2> else, you will do that job. I would not even know< 3> where the Racial Incident Unit was found.< 4> Q. Had you ever heard of the Racial Incident Unit< 5> at Plumstead that time?< 6> A. No. We cover the whole of the Metropolitan< 7> Police district.< 8> Q. Yes, I appreciate that. What were the Force< 9> guidelines at that time on race attacks?<10> A. I am not totally sure, sir.<11> Q. Have you got a clue?<12> A. I just said I am not totally sure. If you are<13> asking me to recite it I cannot do that.<14> Q. Generally, the approach to race attacks?<15> A. I cannot answer that, I am sorry I can't answer<16> that.<17> Q. I want to take you back to the scene and the<18> carrier you were on because we were on that route to<19> begin with, the names you mentioned, that is Clement<20> and all of the rest of them, were not on 325, do you<21> follow?<22> A. You have said that, yes.<23> Q. They are on 326. Nor were Clement and so on, on<24> 324, that follows; do you understand?<25> A. Yes, sir, I understand.

. P-1384

< 1> Q. Right. Could we have your statement 00380303< 2> back again. This statement having been based, you< 3> say, probably on your notes. You can see: "Uniform< 4> 3254", do you see that sentence?< 5> A. Yes, I do.< 6> Q. Right you said before that that was a typing< 7> error, it was either 324 or 325?< 8> A. No I said it could not be 3254, it could be 325< 9> or 324, it could not be both of them.<10> Q. It would could not be 326, could it?<11> A. Without looking at the original I do not know.<12> Q. The call signs start at 323, you have 3234, 5<13> and 6.<14> A. There can only ever be four of the big carriers<15> on this.<16> Q. 321 was your call sign?<17> A. Yes, that's right.<18> Q. There was car available that night?<19> A. I always had a car available.<20> Q. Were you in it?<21> A. Possibly earlier on, quite possibly.<22> Q. Were you in it at the scene?<23> A. No, I don't think so. I think this was used by<24> two of my plain clothes officers for something else<25> that night.

. P-1385

< 1> Q. Leaving that aside, either 325 or 324, unless it< 2> is a typing error, certainly could not have been< 3> based on your notes, could it?< 4> A. I mean what do you want me to do. I can say< 5> that is an error. I can give you the names of the< 6> sergeant in charge of the carriers, but it is 5 years< 7> ago, even then three weeks later: 324 was Hethering,< 8> he was at the scene; 323 was whoever -- sorry, 324< 9> was Thompson he was not there; 325, 326; 325 was<10> Lever, he was not there; 326 was Clement.<11> The point is Clement could have been on any of<12> them. I have told you I was with Clement, Tatton,<13> Norrie and Hodges.<14> Q. Can we do this way: In the whole of this<15> statement you do not mention at any time that you<16> were on the carrier with any of those officers, do<17> you. You just run your eye down it. The statement<18> indicates was driven by Clutterbuck?<19> A. Um.<20> Q. Yes. You say the operator, further down on the<21> same page towards the bottom, was PC Bennett, because<22> he acknowledged the call?<23> A. I can see that.<24> Q. Yes.<25> A. Yes.

. P-1386

< 1> Q. Then you describe the scene and who you talk to< 2> and then you instructed PC Clutterbuck of 324 to park< 3> the personnel carrier in Well Hall Road. Now, are< 4> these all typing errors?< 5> A. No, I would not think so.< 6> Q. How does this come about that, in fact, it is< 7> not 326 it is not 325 but it is 324?< 8> A. I do not know what to say. I can only tell you< 9> what I did and who I was with. You are asking me<10> about a collection of numbers here, I know with 50<11> officers even then 3 weeks later is difficult.<12> Q. If are you doing it from your notes, officer,<13> how could you have possibly have got yourself in<14> amongst a whole lot of named people in relation to<15> another carrier in which you are indicating who the<16> driver is, what instructions you are giving to him,<17> because on your basis if you are on 326, and you are<18> sure of it, with Clements the driver was either Smith<19> or McGary?<20> A. Well, I have to take your word for that.<21> Q. Please do because that is the basis of the<22> documentation we have been provided with, it is one<23> of those two driving 326, not Clutterbuck?<24> A. That is quite possible.<25> Q. How could have you written up a statement?

. P-1387

< 1> A. I think it is important here that quite often if< 2> we were dealing with incidents officers get split up,< 3> they get segregated. People would change, driver's< 4> would change, operators would change. This is the< 5> whole reason for having the tag sheets.< 6> Q. Please understand, of course, it is a difficult< 7> situation officers change, but this is written up to< 8> indicate to the reader who you were with. Do you< 9> agree?<10> A. Yes.<11> Q. It is important to be careful about this?<12> A. Of course.<13> Q. Explain how this is not remotely careful?<14> A. Really, well I do not know what to say to you.<15> Q. Furthermore, on that page, the Clutterbuck page,<16> you indicate trailing blood and so on. You now say<17> that is not right, you did not do it at that time,<18> you did it later?<19> A. After speaking to Bethel, yes, that is right. I<20> had no idea there was another scene at that stage.<21> Q. Quite. How could you have got all this so wrong<22> based on your careful notes?<23> A. I did not say they were careful notes, I said<24> they were notes.<25> Q. Detailed notes?

. P-1388

< 1> A. I made my own notes, that is what they were,< 2> they were notes.< 3> Q. I want to just move it on again?< 4> A. Let us just stop a minute. There is a huge< 5> amount to think about here, an enormous amount. If< 6> it means me looking at you and saying, "I made some< 7> errors in my notes", then I will say for the record I< 8> made some errors in my notes. If that is what you< 9> want me to say, I will say that.<10> Q. Mr Groves, I am going to suggest it goes well<11> beyond errors. There is so many on this statement in<12> relation to the unit you claim you were with?<13> A. Let us count them, shall we, I can count 3.<14> There is not so many. It depends what you call so<15> many. Perhaps something is out of order, something<16> is wrong, I have to agree with you on that, what else<17> can I say. I am trying to be as open as I can here.<18> Q. I am going to pause now, looking back on it, one<19> of the first and really rather important things that<20> are wrong with this investigation is that you did not<21> keep a record of what carrier you were on; do you<22> agree?<23> A. No, that would be kept by the operators of the<24> vehicle.<25> Q. You did not keep a record of what carrier you

. P-1389

< 1> were on?< 2> A. It is unlikely that I would keep a record of the< 3> carrier I was on.< 4> Q. Even in your own notes?< 5> A. This would be done by somebody else.< 6> Q. I mean the notes you took on the night?< 7> A. I turned up, we got a call, we have turned up< 8> with blue lights going and a horn going and we see< 9> somebody lying who was injured. You are asking me --<10> I am more concerned with Stephen Lawrence than 3254.<11> That was insignificant. I have said to you I<12> probably made some errors with the statement, you<13> know, I am not perfect. What else do you want me to<14> do?<15> Q. Well we will come to that at the end.<16> Stephen Lawrence himself, more concerned with Stephen<17> Lawrence, were you, is that what you are saying?<18> A. I would hope to think so.<19> Q. Let us see what happened on that score. Do you<20> agree, it is a much way shorter way of doing it, that<21> in fact you learned nothing about Stephen Lawrence at<22> the scene. Do you agree?<23> A. Sir, I do not want to appear flippant, I do not<24> understand that at all.<25> THE CHAIRMAN: Pause there. Ask it in a different

. P-1390

< 1> way.< 2> MR MANSFIELD: I will do it in stages: Did you< 3> discover his name?< 4> A. No.< 5> Q. Why not?< 6> A. Because Stephen was not talking.< 7> Q. Others were there?< 8> A. He might have had a friend there. The only< 9> person that could have given Stephen's name was<10> Duwayne Brooks.<11> Q. You saw this other man there?<12> A. Yes.<13> Q. Right, let us deal with him.<14> A. Yes.<15> Q. You say you spoke to him now, do you?<16> A. Well, I said earlier that I had spoken to him.<17> Q. Today you are saying that you spoke to<18> Duwayne Brooks?<19> A. Yes, I wanted to establish if he was okay<20> initially, he may have been assaulted as well.<21> Q. There is nothing in the statement of course<22> about having a word with him, is there, you can see<23> it if you want?<24> A. I know what I have said. You have gone to pains<25> to point out exactly what I have said, no.

. P-1391

< 1> Q. Why is there nothing in the statement about the< 2> fact that you spoke to the young man who was< 3> distraught along the lines you have indicated today,< 4> namely was he all right and so on?< 5> A. I do not think I said that Duwayne was< 6> distraught, that is not what I said at all. What I< 7> said was I would say he was hysterical. There is< 8> huge difference. Somebody has just had his friend< 9> seriously injured, who is now lying on at pavement,<10> of course he is not coherent.<11> Q. So you know the difference between distraught<12> and hysterical?<13> A. Well, I can give you what I think is a<14> definition. Do you want me to give you a<15> definition?<16> Q. No, as long as there is a difference. Your<17> statement does not describe him as being hysterical,<18> does it?<19> A. Go on and see what it says.<20> Q. 38 304 top, please: "I also saw another young<21> man who", perhaps you did not appreciate I was<22> reading from your statement, "appeared to be very<23> distraught", not hysterical, Mr Groves?<24> A. I would say that Duwayne was certainly<25> distraught, he was hysterical, he really was. We

. P-1392

< 1> could not get information from him. I certainly< 2> could not get information from him.< 3> Q. Why does the statement not suggest you even< 4> tried?< 5> A. If you are just trying to pick holes in every< 6> word I have used, anybody could do that,< 7> Mr Mansfield.< 8> Q. They could indeed. What did you discover from< 9> Mr Brooks?<10> THE CHAIRMAN: I think it would probably be a good<11> idea if we adjourned soon. Would you choose a<12> sensible moment.<13> MR MANSFIELD: I will.<14> (To the witness): Did you discover Mr Brooks's<15> name?<16> A. No.<17> Q. No. Do you ask----<18> A. Let's stop you there, using your word, I did not<19> discover Mr Brooks's name because he was distraught.<20> Q. Did you ask him his name?<21> A. He was too distraught to speak.<22> Q. Did you ask him his name?<23> A. Possibly.<24> Q. Did you ask him if he knew the person who was on<25> the ground?

. P-1393

< 1> A. Possibly.< 2> Q. Are you making this up?< 3> A. No, I am not.< 4> Q. Did you ask him what had happened?< 5> A. Let me go back to your last question, as a< 6> police officer of 27 and a half years service now,< 7> are you seriously suggesting I would go to an< 8> incident and not ask people their names or what< 9> happened. Are you suggesting that I went there and<10> thought, "no, I am going to go to the pub"?<11> Q. That is precisely what you did do?<12> A. Is that really what you are saying? I am sorry,<13> sir, this is nonsense.<14> Q. Mr Groves, I am only asking you basic questions?<15> A. I am only trying to tell you what I did on the<16> night and what you have done is you have picked holes<17> in every word on this statement. I cannot see what<18> this is actually achieving.<19> Q. We can forget the statement?<20> A. You want to forget now.<21> Q. Yes, because it is obviously irrelevant as far<22> as you are concerned?<23> A. You want to forget it because -- I don't want to<24> forget it. This is what I have said. I have said<25> quite openly to this Inquiry that I could have made

. P-1394

< 1> mistakes. I am not going to elaborate on that< 2> either.< 3> Q. So you say you may have asked him his name, you< 4> may have asked him whether he knew the person on the< 5> ground?< 6> A. Even if I wasn't -- let's just say for one< 7> moment I was not a police officer, I would want to< 8> know what his name was, never mind the fact I have< 9> two pips that I am in charge. What is your name,<10> what has happened, are you hurt, are you okay.<11> Q. I am going to suggest none of this happened,<12> that is why I am going through it. It just did not<13> happen because you were not interested, Mr Groves?<14> MR EGAN: Sorry to interrupt.<15> THE WITNESS: I am a bit shocked by that.<16> MR EGAN: This is going to go on all day tomorrow<17> because it is an argument. It is an argument because<18> the witness is not being asked question in my<19> respectful submission.<20> THE CHAIRMAN: That is why I think we should adjourn<21> and then Mr Mansfield there is a risk -- I only put<22> it this way, I hope you understand -- that the method<23> of questioning is simply bating the answer. You may<24> think that is one way of achieving the truth, but we<25> are interested in discovering the facts of what

. P-1395

< 1> happened, whether he exercised any command, whether< 2> he is right about first aid and so on. Those are the< 3> matters we ought to explore. I am sure you will be< 4> careful not to allow the matter to develop into an< 5> argument between the two of you because that is< 6> unhelpful to us. I am sure you realise that.< 7> MR MANSFIELD: I will bear that in mind.< 8> THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn now and start again at< 9> 10 o'clock.<10> I should have said Inspector that it is very<11> important you do not discuss the evidence overnight.<12> I am sure you understand the importance of that.<13> THE WITNESS: Of course sir.<14> (The Witness Stood Down)<15> (The Inquiry Adjourned at 4.25 pm)<16><17><18><19><20><21><22><23><24><25>

. P-1396