078 - Dan Blank Transcript · Web Marketing, the Wisconsin writer's association, and the university...

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E P I S O D E T R A N S C R I P T

episode 078 – Dan Blank Establishing Authentic Reader Connections

Release Date: March 20th, 2020

r.r. campbell 00:02 This is the Writescast Network brought to you by Dandelion Web Marketing, the Wisconsin writer's association, and the university of Wisconsin writers Institute and always streaming at writescast.net [intro music begins] r.r. campbell 00:23 we've all seen it, that author on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram who's in a constant state of broadcasting a steady stream of ineffective self promotion. These tweets or posts wind up with only one or two engagements, and both those of us on the receiving and sending end of such content ultimately wind up asking ourselves why? What's it all for? How can we actually reach readers where they are, and do so in a way that transcends the sales funnel to build a long lasting reader-writer relationships? Hey there, I'm author writing coach and Writescast Network founder r.r. campbell, and welcome to episode 78 of your listener-supported r.r. campbell writescast here on the Writescast Network brought to you by Dandelion Web Marketing, the Wisconsin Writers Association and the university of Wisconsin Writers’ Institute. This episode's guest is Dan Blank, the founder of WeGrow Media, where he helps writers develop a human centered approach to marketing and reaching their audience. He's the author of the book Be the Gateway, a Practical Guide to Sharing Your Creative Work and Engaging an Audience. Dan has worked with thousands of writers and amazing organizations who support creative people such as Penguin Random House, Hatchette Book Group, Writer's Digest, and many others.


I can also say from personal experience that Dan's weekly newsletters are a must subscribe, and his Creative Shift with Dan Blank podcast is one worth tuning into as well—assuming you're caught up with episodes here on the Writescast Network, of course. In any event, we have a great deal to tackle in this episode with Dan Blank, so let's get right to it. Stay tuned after our conversation for updates on what you can expect next year on the Writescast Network. Thanks for listening. [intro music fades, ends, interview begins] Thank you so much, Dan Blank for joining me here on episode 78 of the r.r. campbell writescast on the Writescast Network. Dan Blank 02:11 Thanks for [having me]. I appreciate your allowing me to be here. r.r. campbell 02:14 Yeah, this is going to be a really fun conversation because it is a topic that I think so many people want to know more about in the world of being an author and of course more broadly in whatever it is. Our approach to marketing is going to be. And I know that for you, Dan, after having read your book, Be the Gateway, after having been subscribed to your newsletter for some time and also having been part of some seminars you've done through the UW Writers’ Institute, your approach to marketing is human centric. And I kind of want to tease that out a little bit. What is it exactly that you mean by human centric? Dan Blank 02:51 I think that too many people get confused and overwhelmed with all that we're told we're have to do with how you market your writing and your book and build an author platform. We get focused on what's new and the trends and that's a lot of social networks and the buttons and the algorithms and the ads and all of those things can be a part of a fruitful life for a book and for an author. But what I find is that what really works is the stuff that a lot of us are actually trying to avoid, which is actual social interaction. And I say it that way because I do have an incredible amount of empathy that for most human beings, um, they might be introverts, they might be nervous about approaching people they don't like or talking about their own work or knowing how to connect. But what I find again and again is that for any strategy, um, that an author might use, focusing on the people that you're trying to reach, focusing on doing it as the person that you are will make that strategy more effective. And whenever you hear an interview or talk to a successful author, they always talk about the people they talk about the relationships and the networks and how they collaborate with other people. And I think that if you look at, you can also layer that into other strategies as well. But human centered marketing is really focusing on that and focusing on who you are and what you write and why and how you genuinely connect that to another person using different strategies and channels. r.r. campbell 04:25 And we'll take a look more at what some of those strategies or channels might look like as this conversation advances. But first I want to know more about your personal journey to developing this approach of being human centered in


your marketing or how you came into this understanding of marketing effectively. What was that journey like for you? Dan Blank 04:49 It's a really interesting question. Um, I think if I give the the very short version, looking back at my career, I, I grew up as an artist and a creator and a writer and my whole life has been about the arts and all of my friends and family and my wife, they're all artists or musicians or performers in my career. I started out at dotcom 1.0, you know, the big first, um, you know, online tech boom. I then spent about a decade at a large media company working with <inaudible> journal and Publisher’s Weekly and a whole bunch of other brands and they were making that transition to digital. So I got a wonderful front row seat at the, the rise and fall of the web and the rise again. And I got to train hundreds of journalists and writers and how to use social media and blogging and all of that. But then in the last decade, full time, what I do is this work. I literally work with writers all day, every day. That's all that I do. It's all that supports me and my family. And it is the greatest joy in the world to be able to work with people who believe in what they're creating. And when you're really in the trenches people every day, and not just with theory, but trying to get them to better express what it is they create and why and and identify who they hope to reach and build the pathways to do that and help them, you know, not just launch a book, which I do a lot of, but all the things around that these are people who might want to do a podcast or have a newsletter or get on social media or what have you. What I find again and again is that the thing that doesn't change is sort of the things that we're hardwired with. That the way that you develop a relationship with someone over time is often what leads to them wanting to do word of mouth marketing. When we talk about these interesting phrases like, you know, just Oh, just be authentic online. And you're like, what? What does that really mean? And you start digging into it and you start realizing what it means. Something different for everyone. But it really is about showing up as a person and connecting with someone else in a meaningful manner. And it of course means playing the long game, um, when it comes to platform. But with marketing it, what it really means is really considering your goals beyond just I want to hit bestseller list or I want to sell books. I mean we all want that and I want that for every writer I talk to. But it really is about thinking of what I remember from the 70s, 80s and 90s when it was just more the art kid, which is, it's not just about creating the work and selling the work. It is about the full life of that creator. And if you go into any community, a community of writers, a community of musicians, of artists, of sculptors, of anything, there is a community. These people create that work and they might create it alone in a studio or in a bedroom, but it comes out and they have a network. They have this full life of wanting to talk to people about that work of having a network of other people who create. And I would say I would just to sort of, you know, wrap up not too long winded of an answer in a launching so many things. Even in just the last decade I've helped so many people launch books and then launch blogs and podcasts, social media, webinars, summits, all the stuff that could go around marketing. What you find again and again is the thing that moved the needle, the thing that actually got people to subscribe, to sign up to buy the book, talk about the book, to review the book, to nominate someone to speak at a festival, uh, to get someone to age and


whatever it was, there's always these other people, these other relationships that are in the mix. And it is so heartwarming when you see how that happens. And what I find is that when we are better express who we are and what we create, when we connect with people with a greater sense of empathy and a greater sense of clarity and purpose, it creates something one around the book and around your writing career. But I do think that it actually creates a wonderful sense of fulfillment and purpose in the life of a writer. They're not just sitting there on the back end of Amazon clicking refresh, hoping to see little numbers that don't quite know what they mean go up. It really is about living the life of someone who creates. r.r. campbell 09:10 And one of the things that, there's a couple things in there that of course stand out to me and one of them is this idea of relationships and being in a position to meet you know, the people who are going to empathize most with you as a person and as an extension of you, as a person, your work. And to me that ties back into something that you also mentioned there was this idea of being authentic, right? That is something that has come up time and time again on this show. And it is something that I think even at the top of 2020 here in one of the episodes that I did, I mentioned how that's been among one of my many goals. Every year I sit down and I think, all right, well what is something that I want to aspire to this year that is maybe less quantitative and it's more qualitative and it's this idea of trying to be, for me anyway, my most authentic self. And what I have found, and this was again in your answer there, is that trying to answer what authentic is can be a very difficult challenge to take on. And one of the things that I am doing to push myself to be more authentic is creating a new space for that very thing. And that is a new podcast that is just called “Just Me with R.R. Campbell.” And I give myself about 20 minutes, not just to ruminate on the happenings of the week though there is inevitably some of that going to be in there, but trying to just get myself more comfortable with letting my shoulders drop and not having to feel like I need to embody this sort of podcasters voice so to speak, and seeing where it takes me. Right. And what I'm learning is exactly what you've said. That's really hard. I've recorded two episodes so far, I'll release the first five all at once, but I watched that first episode. I listened to that first episode. And when, I don't know if that's who I am as a person, maybe let's pump the brakes and episode two and see what we get. So maybe there's something in your experience or perhaps you have an anecdote about someone with whom you've worked who's had a similar experience, but I can say personally that's ringing very true to me from where I'm sitting. Right? Dan Blank 11:16 Yeah, that really resonates. I think when I really think of authenticity, I work in a private studio here in New Jersey and the wall across from where my desk is, I have a, I call it the, uh, the wall of inspiration. And I have all these photos of writers and artists and performers who inspire me and I, I select photos from either a moment of risk in their career or when they were just getting started. And when I look at, and I know the stories behind a lot of these photos now, what I always think of is how oftentimes these people were more, they were more obsessed with an idea than around them. And at the time that idea was bizarre, weird,


laughable. And they just kept pursuing it because they were curious. They were exploring, they were scratching an itch. They, they thought there might be something here. And I think that we talk about authenticity online. We tend to just, um, we look around and say, what does everyone else is doing? It's like, you know, we, we button up our shirt and we smile and we say, Oh my gosh, I'm so excited at the new book that's coming out and we, and that can be authentically how one feels, but it misses so much. And I think of these people who were doing that, that idea that sometimes, um, I mean you'll find this one will find this when they really dig into a blog or newsletter, social media, what have you. Often when you share a difficult thing you're going through, you will get traumatically more feedback because you've said something that is a vulnerable, makes you vulnerable. And it's something that other people think but they're scared to talk about. And I think that when we talk about authenticity, it's not authenticity in a box of my professional author platform, I'm obsessed about blah blah, blah topic and this sort of little neat package thing. It means finding a very safe way. And I'm always, I always encourage people to choose their own boundaries with this. It's a safe way to really show up as a full person, as someone who can express what you're excited about, but also express, um, difficult things you might be going through or things you're thinking about. And I mean, a simple example that you know from last week for me, I shared a, I post an Instagram with the covers of three books that all had fear on the title. And I just talked about how I've been thinking a lot about fear and how fear plays into the life of a writer and how all of that sort of thing. And that's something that I look at a lot when I look at my own authenticity is, you know, when I get sentimental, when I get melancholy, when I have anxiety, how am I able to share that and share that in a way that is authentic. But also it was helpful. And what I think is interesting about that is that if I do that, I become a little bit more like these people on the wall who had something that they're exploring. It might not fit in a nice little neat box, but I'm putting it out there. And what I tend to find is that that's, that's what really resonates. You know, we tend to look at social media and we focus on the media of it. And I think that really what matters more is the social part of it. And every one of us can look at a relationship in our life, whether it's with a colleague at work or a friend or even a sibling. And there's a moment, there's a moment that someone was vulnerable, they went through something and that kind of jelled the relationship. And it's the same way when you are being out there as an author. They remember a little moment, a moment when a, you know, writers at a talk and their voice cracks a little bit or they pause or, or they're jubilant doesn't have to be sad. It can be the range of human emotions, but I think it really is that people nowadays more and more can sniff out, you know, you're putting on airs to be professional or just to be excited versus you showing up as a real person that they can relate to. [ad music swells, fades, ad begins] r.r. campbell 15:11 What do you know? A marketing centric episode is brought to you by our friends at Dandelion Web Marketing! Dandelion Web Marketing helps writers like you build a thriving author platform through strategic web marketing.


Not sure if you're on the right track with your website? Well, Dandelion’s author website audits will help you find out. Listeners to the Writescast Network can currently receive 50% off. That's half off a website audit, which will look at your site's content, security, design, search engine optimization, and more. It'll also provide you with insights on what you might do to better connect with your audience and if you're listening to this episode, I know that's important to you so to learn the strengths and weaknesses of your current website and save half off along the way. You can visit DandelionWebMarketing.com/Writescast to learn more. That's Dandelion Web Marketing.com/Writescast. [ad music swells, fades, ad ends] r.r. campbell 16:08 And I can't tell you, Dan, how serendipitous it is that we are having this conversation today of all days because of the topics that I tried to tackle in the podcast I recorded earlier today, which will be episode two of this new venture. I really did push myself to open up because I felt like in that first episode I was doing that exact thing. It was very much a, I have created this nice tidy box for myself that I'm going to slap a sticker on and say that it is authentic and I'm going to attach these words to it of unscripted on edited and unafraid. But what I actually did in that first episode was looking back rather ironic because it turned out to be more scripted, more edited and coming from a place of fear. And so today's episode was about turning that on its head, trying to embrace vulnerabilities and doing what it is that the people who you have on your wall of inspiration might done. And that's just letting go of that and trying to open up and establish the connections and see, well what happens when we share things that we are afraid of? What happens when we share things that inspire us? Will we find other people reaching out and saying, you know what, I feel that too and I'm so glad that you expressed it. Or will it be crickets and just a safe place for one to have done that venting or that sharing. So really, uh, that was what you just said there in that couple of minutes. Summary is a 20 minutes of episode two of just our Campbell folks. So you heard it from Dan first. Dan Blank 17:38 Well, I love that. I will mention that it takes time and even you saying that you're an experienced podcaster and it takes time for you to get that voice and figure out how to communicate that. And I think that, um, that's why it's important for writers to be out there well ahead of a book launch. But, uh, I really, that resonates with me, that story. r.r. campbell 17:58 And I want to talk now maybe more about these human centered approaches, right? Because I think we're starting to dip our toes in the water of what that can look like. Uh, perhaps it is a video journal or podcast kind of something that I am doing to make those connections. But Dan, in your view, what are some other possible manifestations of a human centered approach to marketing? Dan Blank 18:21 Okay, so one of the things I, it's my favorite thing to have writers do right now is to email other writers. And the reason I do this is I'm often, what I'll suggest to people to do is, especially if they're just kind of getting themselves out


there, but I think it applies at any level. And I work with plenty of writers who are brand new and plenty who are unbelievably experienced, multi-time published authors is that they isolate themselves. And I think that it's important to have a network of people who are professionals. You should have colleagues, you should know other writers who write in your genre or write in your topic. And a really great way to do that is to just send them a really nice email on a random Tuesday to one. I mean, right away, this begs the question, do you read in your genre or topic, do you, can you name 10 other authors who are comparable to you have published books in the last couple of years, who would be sitting next to you on a shelf? Who someone who, someone might say, Oh, you like so-and-so. Then you might like Dan and right away that already gives you homework to figure that out. Not you, but a potential listener. Um, but then it's a matter of if, if you figure that out of, of letting these people know, Hey, I read your book, I really liked it. This is my favorite part. Just wanted to let you know that I'm going to go post a review on Amazon and good reads, hope you have a great Tuesday. And I've had people do this so many times and they'll often pick someone who's kind of a little bit famous in their little niche and they're always apprehensive. They don't, I, I can't do that. Um, what would I even say? And these people are too busy and I'm bugging them. And like nine times out of 10 or nine and a half times out of 10, they get an email back, they get an email back very quickly within a day or two. And the email nearly always shows nothing but gratitude like you made my day. Thank you for this. And I think that that's the kind of power that we all have. And it's a power that for some odd reason we don't use or we don't use as often as we could. We all talk about it's good to be polite and generous and we reserve that generosity for the launch day of someone's book. And I love this idea that on a random Tuesday your making someone's day, not by asking anything of them but showing appreciation. And I think that in that process you can develop a network with people because you are following up with them. And for the people out there who might be skeptical and saying, well that's fine and good Dan, I want to, I want a relationship with readers, not writers. And that's a very valid thing to say. This is one of those ways that you learn how other people are connecting with writers, with readers. It's a way that you're alerted to opportunities or partnerships or of other people who have the same audience that you have will naturally and organically one day talk about your book and do something generous for you. Because two years earlier you did this thing for them that was really nice and a random Tuesday and then six months later you did it again and eight months later you did it again. And I think that that's one way to look at the idea of what is like human centered marketing. Um, one, one simple example. r.r. campbell 21:34 And what I like that we have underlying all of that is this sort of idea of not being afraid to make that first contact. Because I will say that based on conversations with other individuals in my circle in the local writing community here, that is something I've heard is, Hey, don't be afraid to just send someone that email and thank them for maybe a blog post that they wrote that resonated with you. Or maybe after you've read their book, just letting them know, Hey, I am going to leave a review, but this really meant something to me personally and what I have found in starting to do that myself, whether it's been a sit here and be very deliberate about it


or just a as I think as I think about it kind of thing is that it really has done a lot in the way of helping me feel more comfortable just communicating with other creatives and realizing that there is something to be gleaned for both parties. When you're in a situation where you can share, you can commiserate and you can celebrate together. And what I'm finding increasingly now as this podcast has grown as it has so much, especially in the last couple of months, I will get emails on Monday following the release of a Friday episode. I'll get an email on that random Tuesday from someone who's just letting me know they listened, they enjoyed it, they'd like to know more about that guest or hear more of them in the future. And even if it's something as simple as that, that that email can make my day. And so if you are a listener to this podcast who's unsure about the power of doing something so simple as reaching out, rest assured that you have no idea, for example, what it is I might've been going through in my inbox and maybe it's been a tough day of news. Whatever the case is, when we get something encouraging like that, when we get something that establishes a connection, that can really fundamentally shift the entire trajectory of someone's afternoon as well as the trajectory of our relationship going forward. So I think that is a really great example, Dan. Dan Blank 23:28 I love that. And the one thing I will say is that a lot of times we do this when we are afraid. I mean there's so many times that I'm putting something out there that I don't know how it will land if I'm getting it right. And I think a big part of probably what you do and what I do is I think we've learned how to be afraid and also just take action anyway. And even though that anxiety might never go away just through repetition and we realize probably nothing bad will happen even though we're just be, you know, just baked this way to be anxious over a simple actions like that. r.r. campbell 24:01 And I think it's important probably to mention as well that let's say you are going to reach out for to someone by email whom you respect or to whom you feel you related a you are related to their book or whatever it is that they created. I personally would try to separate the establishment of contact from the expectation of say a favor, because I think when we're looking at this in terms of marketing and we start using words like connections and networking, some people might get this idea in their heads that well I need to reach out and demonstrate some kind of value and then also create maybe an expectation that I'll get something in return and I think it's really important and I'm sure Dan, this has been your experience of it hasn't let me know, but we want to just make the connection right, be genuine and share what it is that is important to you without having that sort of you scratch my back, I scratch yours kind of thing attached to it because if we are going to build a positive professional, a positive personal relationship with anyone, whether that is a another writer, whether that is a reader of our work, we want it to be one that's based fundamentally on respect and understanding and perhaps not this idea of we'll use the word like economy here. Does that seem like a fair bit of advice to throw out there? Dan Blank 25:18 I'm going to say yes and yes and so the yes, I totally agree with you and I think the way I try to express it is “don't make it a transaction.” Yes, totally agreeing. The other end, there are times I think where people do hope that something comes from it, but they're too forward, which I think you're suggesting or


they're not clear enough about it. Um, I was helping a, a writer do that this morning where they're reaching out to someone and it was the first thing and they were being nice, but then they wanted to interview them for their blog and the first draft of it, it sort of wasn't clear. It was like, Oh, maybe you can be a part of this and you're up for it. Just let me know. One thing I think that people should be clear with that if there is an ask, um, to make it very short and very clear so that people know what they're getting into. I don't think people, especially someone who has a book and might want promotion or if you're doing something like that, um, just make it really clear what that is. And I'm thinking of a client, I'd helped launch a podcast not long ago and they got a, you know, 10 or 12 guests for the first season and they were 10 or 12 guests that they were just blown away by. They were so proud that these people said yes. And I think that for most of those connections it was a first time connection for many of them. And there was an ask and I think the ask was clear and it also illustrated, um, you that sense of empathy where we're a fan of yours and this is what it is exactly. And this is why we're doing it. So I think you can have an ask as long as you also have those things checked off. r.r. campbell 26:55 I'm really glad that you have made that clarification because I think actually about one of the first times that I emailed you in fact was actually after having read one of your newsletters. It resonated with me, but it also sparked this idea that you might be someone who I would interview perhaps for a nonfiction manuscript that I was working on at the time. And I remember I sent that email, I established the connection. I mentioned why your, why your newsletter resonated, and then I did kind of that halfway in the door, halfway out of the door, maybe if you'd possibly consider being part of dadada. And you emailed me back and said, Oh, are you asking me to do an interview for your book? If so, then yes, and I was like, ah, yes. I didn't actually ask that question in there. So good clarification. Dan Blank 27:41 That's funny. All of that. I remember that now. r.r. campbell 27:43 Well, I think that you, as we are advancing through this conversation, we're talking a lot about these individual connections, right? But there are so many writers, I think who might come into that and say, well, that's great. I love having individual connections. Personal and professional relationships are fantastic, but if I'm going to be a best seller, I need to do this at scale. Right? I think there's this idea that we need to build an audience and I'd like to, if you wouldn't mind, talk for a moment about why it's worth focusing on those individual connections as opposed to maybe thinking about it in terms of audience building. Dan Blank 28:20 Yeah, that's such a good question. And I agree there's very often I talked to a writer and ask them about their platform and say, Oh I, I'm in a, you have a newsletter West by just have 140 subscribers. But I think back to the 90s when I was running a cafe or doing an art project and thinking of having 140 people, even 60 people, even 20 people who were vaguely interested in my weird little art brush. So the way that I like to frame it is, is this, how are you going to talk to a thousand people if you can't yet figure out how to talk to one of them? So when I talk to scale, I mean I think that there's a couple different ways of doing it, like doubling or 10 X,


which is, if you can figure out how to talk to one person about what you create and why, then you can figure how to do with 10 people. I think that's a big point, not just the idea of doing one and then you can do 10 but I've been to a lot of writing conferences where they're like pitch slams and in all the hallways ahead of it are the writers literally figuring out what they're going to say to the agent and writing it down and practicing it and testing on a people then changing it. And what I realized is that, Oh, they've never done this before, or they've never walked up to another human being and said, Oh yeah, I'm a, I'm an author, I'm working on a book, it's science fiction, blah blah blah. They've never done it. And the first time they're doing it in front of an agent who they hope loves it. And, and this is not judgmental cause I have empathy for that. But I think, gosh, it would have been better if you had gotten used to saying that to another human beings. So that one you got comfortable, but two maybe you figured out what phrases worked and what drew people in and what didn't. And it'd be great if you had a little community of people who you could have done that with. And the one to one thing, it goes like that. It goes, if you could do with one to 10, you know, one person, you do it with three and five and eight and 10. If he could do a 10 he could think about, well how would I communicate that effectively with a hundred people? And this is maybe where you talk about some of that newsletter list or a podcast or going to a writing group or going to a conference and it sort of scales up that way. Um, and I think a lot of us, a lot of writers will do the thing where they will read an article. I've read articles about this, of like how David Sedaris is at a book signing where he shows up and he stays until every single person has met him. He literally brings gifts. He literally hangs hands out money. He comes with jokes, he's there for hours and hours and hours. He shows up. And I think what a lot of us say is, you know, if I get that big, I would do that too. I would be the most generous author ever. And then we're not really living that right now. We're not figuring out how to do that with five people, with 15 people, with 60 people. We're saying, I'm not going to do any of that unless I'm a bestseller. And then when I'm grateful and they validated me, then I'll become Renee Brown and I'll become Davidson, Doris. And I think you got to practice this and you got to learn how to communicate and you've got to build the relationships. And that takes time. And just to wrap it up with a simple story, I had a, a friend who came out with a memoir and she took a table at an event that really would be filled with people who might like her book. And I always thought of this where you know, she brought up, you know, let's say she bought 50 bucks and she moved them all because people came up to her. And I guarantee that if she started at 9:00 AM and it ended at 5:00 AM by 10 o'clock she knew how to read people a little better than at nine o'clock and by noon she probably could have sorted them into three different kinds of people. Or she had four different ways of starting conversation. Or she knew, Oh, do I, do I miss? Do I talk about the book in this way? Because this is what I think they'd be interested. Oh no, I do. I go the other way. That just by putting herself in that difficult situation, she would learn, Oh, you know what? People are drawn to this book and one of three ways. And here's two ways I can talk about it. Or maybe I start with a question and


then based on that I, I, I draw them in. And I think that, um, that's one of those ways that you go from not just starting at virality. You start with that individual connection and it grows to small audience and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then ready to talk to more people, [ad music swells, fades, ad begins] r.r. campbell 32:43 Friends, family, writerfolk, the Wisconsin Writers Association’s Jade Ring contest is here. That's right. The time has come to submit your fiction, your nonfiction and your poetry to their 72nd annual contest. And what can you win if you enter? Well, those selected as winners will have their work published in Wisconsin People and Ideas Magazine as well as Creative Wisconsin Literary Journal. There are also cash prizes in a play and you can receive the coveted Jade Ring. So if you're sitting on a piece of short fiction, nonfiction or poetry, you can head to wiwrite.org/contests to learn more about the 72nd annual Jade Ring, what it takes to enter, the eligibility requirements, all that jazz is right there waiting for you. So go ahead and visit wiwrite.org/contests to submit your work. Get some feedback on it if you'd like and have a chance at winning that awesome Jade ring, not to mention publication. So again, that site is wiwrite.org/contests. Happy submitting and good luck. [ad music swells, fades, ad ends] r.r. campbell 33:51 And I can say that that rings very true for me as someone who spent the bulk of 2019 going to different conferences that were focused on to some extent these genres in which I have books published. So we'll go with the PSI Phi angle is I have two books out in that world and I would go to conferences, right? You get to, you get there, you set up your table, the doors open, people start flooding in and you have this pitch in mind, right? You've written your marketing copy, you know what it is. You need to say this is the stuff that sells. It's sold the book after. All right? But what I found is just like this individual, you mentioned here in your story, over the course of a day, you start to figure out more of what this particular audience in this particular city is going to have resonate with them. And then you slowly start to shift and change the narrative that you present when they come over and start asking questions about your book and whatever the case might be. And in this way you start to learn, you have conversations that maybe shift away from your book and you can learn more about the local area, perhaps why it is that this audience is represented this way here at this conference versus another, even though they're hosted by the same organization, for example. And then you can start to build those individual connections, develop a more nuanced understanding of this audience you're hoping to reach. And then from there, like you say, it's going from that doubling to the sort of 10 X where, okay, I know what worked really nicely in Madison, Wisconsin, but Milwaukee, even though it's only 90 or so miles away, very different scene where sci-fi is concerned. So I've now learned what works in that venue. So yes, again, it has to start with those one on one conversations because of [those differences] sure. But virality, by virality, but virality feels as though it's going


to be more fleeting. But the individual connection and the lessons that you learned seemed like they have the power to transcend to more than virality. Dan Blank 35:43 I also think that virality is an excuse that people give to not bother trying. And it's this idea that you know, well I'm only going to do it if there's ROI can do it, this works and you know, that type of thing. And it's like, well that's a great excuse to just not bother any of it because you know, whatever author we want to, you know, talk about Neil Gaiman and Brené Brown or any of them, they didn't know what was going to work. They kept trying different things. And if you give up really quickly because you figure if it doesn't scale quickly, you have failed or it's embarrassing. You're literally missing the entire process of how things become successful, which is that is the learning process. And that is the natural way that things happen. Um, I also think that there's a more nuance discussion of what, what is the reality of virality? Like if you actually look at interviews with people who have truly gone viral online, it's a very complex thing. It's something that maybe we all actually would not want. r.r. campbell 36:47 Right? Because once you're viral, you're suddenly— I can think of it this way. If we're doing the slow build, if we're working with individual connections and we're starting to develop, as I mentioned, a more nuanced understanding of our audience, we're building up this really great trust between us and that audience. Whereas if we just show up one day, who do we have to fall back on? If we aren't quite prepared for what it means to go viral, where are those individual connections? Where are the people that can advocate for us in the same way that we would advocate for them? That relationship hasn't been built in the same way as it would have been where we in a position to be working with people one on one and so there you have it too. You could go viral and that could be great for a couple of days and then it could all come, I dunno back in on you if you're not entirely sure how to address that or if that's something that you actually wanted in the end, so I don't know a little bit of AI caveat am tours there anyway on by reality indeed and one thing that I think we should discuss that now, because a lot of people I think look around the internet and they're trying to figure out, well what's worked for other people? You mentioned Neil Gaiman. You can pick an author off the author tree and say what works for them? I write in that genre. I just need to do what they did and you find a blog post that says here are the top 10 things every writer needs to do prior to launching a book. I know Dan, based on having read your newsletter, having read Be the Gateway that maybe this idea of quote unquote best practices, I don't know, we might want to consider avoiding those. Why is it that you believe shying away from these sort of top 10 lists is maybe worth considering? Dan Blank 38:23 Yeah, so in a chapter of Be the Gateway [there’s a section] called Ignore Best Practices, and you know there's a little bit of an asterisk there. I understand that if you're just learning Twitter or Instagram and newsletters, you want to understand the how it works. The issue is that when you start trying to copy marketing tactics or platform tactics, things that are more advanced, if you're copying someone else, if you're copying a list of, this is how I did it, you can do it too.


You're often copying a copy of a copy that worked three years ago when fewer people were doing it, so you don't quite know why you're doing it. You're doing something. A lot of other people are trying to copy and when it doesn't work, you feel dumb. You feel like, here I was doing the smart things that didn't work. This whole thing feels like a sham. I don't know what. I don't know what to do. And I think it's much more interesting when you figure out what, what the path that feels meaningful to you. And this is where I think marketing comes in. Most of the more interesting marketing tactics are when you're actually doing something interesting, when you're doing something that, that might be weird or different, but that it feels fulfilling to you. Um, so, you know, uh, I've shared examples of this in different blog posts, but it's the type of thing where your, I mean, I just shared, um, a case study, you know, recently about a book launch I worked on with a writer. And you know, in that process, something that was decided was, you know, she was originally going to launch a podcast and she pulled back from that and instead decided to do a printed Xen and a Xen for anyone who doesn't know it was back in the eighties and nineties, people in their bedrooms would make little magazines using like a Xerox machine at Kinko's. And she ended up making a bunch of these scenes and they went out with the, the advanced reader copies with their book and she wrote an essay for it. And it was this whole idea that as she thought about what she was creating and her audience, what felt right to her, what would get attention, what would be meaningful would be them getting this physical object in the mail that had an original essay. And that was this like limited edition thing that was sent to them. And that's not a best practice because that's totally insane to be a best practice. The idea of just making 200 of something that costs money and mailing it and, and all of that. Um, or I've talked about, you know, a giveaway I did with, with an author where we flipped it. We, yeah, we gave away her book. We also gave away the book of 24 other writers and we spent a month promoting those other writers and it created an incredible sense of community, of networking. But also it got a lot of play. And again, it's like that's an idea that we did five years ago. It's not that it can't work now, but I've had people say things to me, which was like, Oh great, let's do that. Okay, what writers did we do it with? And it's like, Whoa, like, you know, we've got a back up here, you know, we ha, you know, this is the context with a tree created that. And that was five years ago. So we've got to look at it a little differently. And I will just put a little, you know, note here, I do encourage writers to look around and learn from what other people are doing. I just want them to be careful to not just copy the list of top tens, um, because that can lead to not just ineffective marketing, but unfulfilling marketing. r.r. campbell 41:50 Unfulfilling. And I was actually gonna add on possibly even the word harmful, because I can say that as someone who was desperate to figure out the one neat trick to getting my books into people's hands. I had three books come out in a matter of six months. And so I needed to develop in my head this method that I could develop to make sure that all three of these books were getting equal attention and getting out there in a way that other people have had success doing it before. So I relied on a lot of those best practices. I created these checklists based on different blog lists, checklists that they had created, and sure enough, Dan, yes, I was


falling into that copy of a copy of a copy version of a marketing plan and I thought, all right, I'm going to keep it up though. I had some good launch success for every book, but then I started hearing crickets. So what do I do while I need to keep up that steady beat of good press? Right? And I spend all this time blogging, but I wasn't blogging meaningfully. I wasn't blogging in a fulfilling way. I was blogging in a way that was actually undercutting my ability to connect with possible readers and people who might be interested in purchasing the book because I was so blinded by this idea that if you just do something, something good will happen. But it turns out it's not about just doing something. It's about doing the right thing. Even if it is doing something like taking a risk and printing 200 scenes as opposed to blogging every day for four months straight. [ad music swells, fades, ad begins] r.r. campbell 43:25 Coffee, coffee, coffee. You like coffee. I like coffee. Y’all in Spain like coffee. Everyone likes coffee and 421 Brewhouse knows coffee. I've certainly had my fair share of it today. I love that Mountain Mist brew that they have sent my way, but I also really like their approach to sustainability. 421 Brewhouse will send you your coffee in a unique reusable resealable zip lock style bag. Folks. It's really durable. It'll hold up nicely with whatever it is you want to put in there after you have consumed their coffee, which you will in a quick hurry because it is delicious on top of their approach to sustainability, which is just all the more reason to love 421 Brewhouse. And if you're listening to this ad, if you're listening to this episode, you can head to 421 Brewhouse online, visit their Shopify site and use code Writescast at checkout to save yourself a few dollars on your first couple bags. In fact, you can save cash on your whole order. I don't know if there's a limit. They didn't tell me. We'll pretend there isn't. Go ahead and save that cash. Get yourself a bag of their delicious brews. That's 421 Brewhouse. Drink on. Drink well. [ad music swells, fades, ad ends] Dan Blank 44:37 Yeah, I do think there's a, there's a mix here too. I'm thinking of a, of a writer. Um, I'm on the call with them, their client after this and we sort of end up doing both. So part of it is that we will create, or we have, you know, creating this launch timeline where we're literally going through all the things that we could do, platform outreach, publicity, the whole deal. And you know, choices will be made about what we will do and won't do when some of those are kind of the best practice. The thing like, Oh, let's get people to, um, you know, put the book on a list on good reads. Let's, when do you, you know, when do you ask people to review it on Amazon? Um, when do you do a campaign for the, the advanced reader copies? So it's not that you can't have a strategy that is that sort of lock step. I think it's about being clear about what you're doing so you don't feel like it's an endless list that feels bad, like you're saying. And then also adding in things that will hopefully be fun. That will be interesting. Um, and I think that that's kinda neat too. We talked about fear earlier and I think that the whole book launch process is terrifying. I think that maybe it needs to be terrifying. I'm not really sure, but that if you're going to be scared, you might as well have some fun with it. You might as well


think of what is the most interesting way to share this with real people. And I think that's the difference too between like platform, which is some of these things, general marketing and publicity and then like a marketing campaign, something that is something interesting that you think people will talk about and that's where hopefully the fun comes in. r.r. campbell 46:10 and keeping it fun is really, I think a great way to go because if we think to ourselves, well what is it that's going to make this process fun for me? This otherwise terrifying but exciting process. Well, when we know what's fun for us, I think as an extension of executing that, which is fun, we will be arriving back at this idea of being our truest selves, our most authentic selves and therefore in a position to really connect with and communicate who we are to others and hear in return who it is that they are. So I love this idea of introducing something fun and I also want to revisit a little bit this contrast between platform and marketing. Because in your most recent newsletter you had a section that actually tease this out a bit. And I do think that this is a common confusion for anyone who is trying to get into the world of writing is you just hear all the time, well you need a platform, you need a platform. And we just hear, well you need to be marketing. Well what Dan, what is the difference between platform and marketing? Dan Blank 47:14 So an author platform to me is two things. It is your ability to effectively communicate and in that process develop trust with people. So in a very practical sense for a lot of people what it means is you having a website where you know how to talk about what you created. And you may be using social media and knowing, you know, consistently talking about that. Maybe you do a blog, maybe you do a podcast, maybe you have a Facebook group, maybe you do a reading series. This is the thing that is consistent where you are consistently communicating what you create and why. And hopefully the byproduct is an organic sense that you are connecting with people and over time a sense of trust and awareness is being built. It's the platform. It's like the baseline marketing is something that gets people talking. It's something that gets people interested in your book. It creates awareness. It is looking at something, it's a campaign often. So it's very specific and the goal isn't, it's not publicity and it's not just a press release. You know, Dan published a book, here's the description you can find at Amazon. It's something different than that. So usually around a book launch, beyond all the platform stuff and all the publicity stuff does a separate topic, um, is one to three marketing ideas. And these are very specific ideas to get the book out, to get people talking about you or the book or themes related to your book in a way that would actually be interesting that could draw people in other than, again, just shouting, here's my book. Um, so if we go back to that, that client I mentioned with the case study, there was the zine idea. So that's something, it's like a throwback. You getting a physical scene in the mail and this was sent to a very specific group of people. So that is playing on, this is a group of people who might be very influential on Instagram, but they're getting pitched all the time for Instagram. You things, they don't get stuff in the mail like this. They don't get a really cleverly written essay that's like printed like a 1990s scene. That's something that would get their attention. Will they share it? Will they like it? Who knows? But it's something different to get attention around this book. Another idea, um, that she's pursuing is doing in, in


conversation with series and not just doing a book tour, but doing a series of events where she's in conversation with someone else on topics related to the book and she's very carefully trying to figure out who the other person is in each city and what kind of venue would it be? Would it be a bookstore? Would it be something else would be a yoga studio. So you're thinking of drawing people in who might not know. This author might not know the book, might not even know they want to read it, but they're being drawn in by something related to it. Something very specific. So that's, I think the, the quick way of describing the difference between platform and marketing. r.r. campbell 50:10 And kind of what I'm taking away from all of our conversation is this idea that maybe we can boil this down to if we are a writer and you're listening to this podcast and maybe you are, whether you're new to the world of writing, whether you're published or whatever the case might be, how can we make this work for ourselves? And I think that what I am kind of hearing time and time again in different case studies and in the general philosophy that we're using to approach all of this is playing to one's strengths, to one's interests and to that which is exciting for you as the person who is going to be building a platform as the person who is going to be doing marketing and having these various campaigns as extensions of that platform. Does that kind of feel like those would be some fair guiding principles for listeners to walk away with from this conversation? Dan Blank 51:05 Absolutely, yes. r.r. campbell 51:06 Very good. Well I'm glad that we could boil it down to those three things we did have for this episode a question come in from a texter. We had our first ever text question from someone in Nebraska judging by the area code and this question is more of a brass tacks kind of thing and the question that we got here was when you form a connection with readers, how do you then turn that connection into a sale? So that is the question we have from our texture in Nebraska. Thank you to this anonymous texter for texting us at (608) 284-8342 but Dan, I will turn it over to you. Is there a concrete way to do that? Is it just part of the flow of how these relationships work over time? What, what can we offer this person who has texted us? Dan Blank 51:52 Yeah, that's a great question. I think when you get really into sales, what you often have is a classic marketing funnel and a marketing funnel. I mean you'll see it done all different ways, but it's the idea that it's, it's a, it's a process. So at the very top is idea of being aware, awareness that you're an author who might write books that they like and you kind of can bring people down this funnel. It's a series of actions that maybe they're aware of that and they have got to kind of see your name a few different times and then maybe they'll, they'll consider following you or consider joining your newsletter or consider doing, you know, seeing, you know, seeing you speak at a literary festival and they'll get a new newsletter list and then they'll, you know, maybe they'll, maybe they will buy the book, but the buying the book is not the end of the funnel. And I think a lot of people misconstrue that buying the book is somewhere in the middle of the funnel. The end of the funnel is having a fan, someone who does word of mouth marketing, someone who is part of an ecosystem of support for you. So


how you get that sale can look like a lot of different things. Sometimes it's someone who came at the top of your funnel, um, three years ago on your newsletter list. And this is something that if you run any kind of business, you see this all the time. And it is similar for book marketing because if you look at my business, I'm, this is my full time job for 10 years and I've said it before, it's the only thing sports my family and it's always so interesting to me. The person will say, Oh, I saw you 2014 at the writer's digest conference and you know, then in 2016 they joined my newsletter last and then they emailed me in 2018 you know, here it is in 2020 and they're hiring me to for something for their writing life. And you're like, wow, that was a five year funnel. It's not that I look at a relationship like that as a funnel, but from a business standpoint, when someone says, Hey, where do you get your clients? How does business happen? You're like, well, you got to know one person and what that looked like. And when you, when you talk to a, I work right outside the downtown here. We have an adorable little downtown in the town I live in here. And you go to an Italian restaurant or a yogurt shop. Yeah, they're putting out coupons, they're putting the sandwich board out there doing Instagram posts. But how they get to a sale is a very complex thing and it takes a lot of consideration. And what they want is not just a sale. They want a regular, they want a regular who recommends it, they want a regular who recommends it, who then does catering for their office. Um, so when you think about that, some of it is preparing along enough in advance. So don't just start thinking about your book launch three months ahead or you're, you're going to miss most of the opportunity. You've got to think of this at least a year ahead. It's why I start working with people a year or more ahead of a book launch or when they are going to have a book on the horizon. They know their writing and they know they want to build a platform. Um, you have to think about specific ways that you are bringing them through that funnel. So if you have a newsletter or a podcast or you're doing something on Facebook, you have to think about if you've prepped them for the sale, have you let them know, my book comes out this Tuesday. This is my journey as a person to get to this point. And I realized my book is $8.99 and I realize you might not have time to read it, but if you've liked anything I've done, this would be meaningful to me because this is my dream. And I'm not saying that's the way to, you have to do. You can write it in a thousand ways, uh, being clear about leaving a review and how to leave that. It really is that preparation is thinking about the actions you want them to take. And it's thinking in that empathetic human centered way of how do you develop that method back to platform, the method of communication and trust so that when that moment comes, you've prepared yourself and them for it as best as you could. r.r. campbell 55:48 I really love everything you had to say there, Dan. I certainly appreciate that and I appreciate our texter. Who sent that question in to us at (608) 284-8342 if you're listening to this podcast and you have questions for future guests, you can always find those guests at Wright's cast.net and then send in a question for them at (608) 284-8342 so thanks again to the texter and thanks to you Dan. Before I let you go here, would you mind letting listeners know where it is that they can find you online, for example?


Dan Blank 56:21 Yeah, absolutely. So I have a weekly blog and newsletter. WeGrowMedia.com I've also got programs and you can learn all about me and my philosophy now. I help writers on social media. I’m @danblank and that's, you know, usually Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. And then I have my own podcast called the Creative Shift with Dan Blank. And that's just weekly and that's a hobby for me. That's where I get to talk to people who create and the topic I dig into there is really risk risk in the creative process and that podcast feels like a um, a joy to do because I get to do what we're doing here, which is talk to other people who are creating and trying to figure it all out. r.r. campbell 57:05 And I will say I listened to your interview of Jennie Nash over on the creative shift and writes cast network listeners. You know that Jennie will also be joining us for an episode soon. So if you want to get a preview of Jennie and you want to learn more about Dan and what he has to say and what his guests have to say, that's the creative shift with Dan Blank. So thank you again, Dan, for joining me for this episode. Listeners, the book is Be the Gateway, a practical guide to sharing your creative work and engaging an audience. So thank you Dan for joining me on the r.r. campbell writescast here on the Writescast Network. Dan Blank 57:39 Thank you so much. r.r. campbell 57:40 That's a wrap for my conversation with Dan Blank of WeGrow Media. Thanks to Dan for coming on the show and thanks to you dear listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you could leave the Writescast Network a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. This will help the Writescast Network reach more writers like you and building that community is what we and I hope you are all about. To those of you who have already left us a rating and review, thank you. I'd also like to thank the Writescast Network’s patrons, who contribute to our programming financially at patreon.com/writescast. In exchange for their support Writescast Network patrons get access to some great patron perks including Writescast Network swag, discounts on my editing services, and entries and monthly drawings for partial manuscript critiques performed by yours truly. If this sounds like something you'd be interested in, you can join patrons like Laura Hazan and Angeline Boulley today in supporting our programming directly at one two or three dollars per episode or per month. Any level of contribution will get you access to some of those fantastic patron perks, so become a supporter right now by making your pledge at patreon.com/writescast. That's patreon.com/writescast. Thanks as well to our other sponsors: Dandelion Web Marketing, the Wisconsin Writers Association, and the University of Wisconsin Writers’ Institute. To learn more about them or our other sponsors, you can visit writescast.net/sponsors. Coming up next on the Writescast Network is an episode featuring the incomparable Claribel Ortega, author of Ghost Squad. I'm really looking forward to sharing that interview with all of you on April 3rd when Claribel’s episode will debut on Apple podcasts, writescast.net and wherever you listen to podcasts.


Until then you can stay in touch with us by visiting writescast.n or by saying hello on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @writescast, or by searching for the Writescast Network. We're also available by email at [email protected], and you can now call us at area code (608) 284-8342 where you can leave us a voicemail with questions for future guests or other matters you'd like us to address in our programming. Again, that number is (608) 284-8342. To reach me personally, you can visit rrcampbellwrites.com or holler at me on Twitter where I can be found as @iamrrcampbell. I love hearing from listeners of all backgrounds, so please don't hesitate to reach out. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, this is r.r. campbell signing off. Write on and write well. [outro music fades, ends] This is the Writescast Network brought to you by Dandelion Web Marketing, the Wisconsin writer's association, and the University of Wisconsin Writers’ Institute and always streaming at writescast.net. [episode ends]

078 - Dan Blank Transcript · Web Marketing, the Wisconsin writer's association, and the university...

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Transcript of 078 - Dan Blank Transcript · Web Marketing, the Wisconsin writer's association, and the university...