Post on 29-May-2017
Transcript of the Testimony of Mike Woolston
Date: November 6, 2013Volume: I
Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
Printed On: November 13, 2013
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078
Fax: 417-451-1114Email:daholliday@hotmail.com
Internet:
Mike Woolston In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
417-358-4078
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
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IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION
SWORN STATEMENT OF
MIKE WOOLSTON
Taken on Wednesday, November 6, 2013, from 2:28 p.m. to 3:25
p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626
S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of
Missouri, before
SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,
a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and
for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.
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APPEARANCES
MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE
Loraine & Associates, LLC
4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300
Osage Beach, MO 65065
tellaw@loraineandassociates.com
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S T I P U L A T I O N
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that this Sworn Statement may be
taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a
Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into
typewriting.
It is further stipulated that the signature of the
witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of
said witness shall be of the same force and effect as
though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.
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I N D E X
Page/Line
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4
E X H I B I T S
Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-8
Advice of Rights
Note: Exhibits in separate binder
(sic) - typed as spoken
(ph.) - phonetic
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1 MIKE WOOLSTON
2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,
3 testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:
5 Q. Mr. Woolston, have you had a chance to look
6 at this Advice of Rights form?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I've indicated it's marked Exhibit #A.
9 Would you sign this and print your name above
10 your signature and put the date on there?
11 A. (Witness complies) Is today the 6th?
12 Q. Yes, it is, sir. Okay, Mr. Woolston, would
13 it be true that you have, in fact, reviewed
14 and executed the Advice of Rights form that I
15 provided to you?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. I'm going to witness that signature and put
18 the date on that. Mr. Woolston, you provided
19 I think through the City Attorney some
20 information prior to coming in here today.
21 Is that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'm going to hand you a pile of those what I
24 believe to be what he gave me. Let's see, I
25 think there is #6, also.
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1 BY COURT REPORTER: #6 was property
2 listings.
3 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'm going to hand you
4 what's been previously marked as Exhibits #5
5 sequentially through Exhibit 11, and let you
6 just examine those for a moment.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. Are you familiar with those exhibits?
9 A. I am.
10 Q. Is this the total exhibits that you've given
11 me?
12 A. I believe it is so, yes.
13 (Off record while Mr. Loraine has a phone call)
14 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'm sorry, sir. Now you
15 submitted this information I know with the
16 thought that it would assist us in getting to
17 a conclusion on one of the issues which is
18 the embarrassing issue that somehow you might
19 have done something wrong. I mean I
20 certainly sympathize with you, no
21 professional wants to be put in that kind of
22 situation for the high paying job of the City
23 Councilman, but in any case I have examined
24 them and I saw there was a memorandum in here
25 from a lawyer, I thought, from Wood.
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And who is Mr. Wood?
3 A. He is the managing broker of the real estate
4 company with which I was affiliated at the
5 time of the closing of those transactions.
6 Q. That was Pro 100?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And basically what he's telling me is that
9 you did not benefit from any fee that Pro 100
10 received?
11 A. With one exception.
12 Q. And you've got that exception noted?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. A certain address.
15 A. It's the first one on the list for the
16 property listings. 1825 Connecticut.
17 Q. 1825 Connecticut, yeah. Now, what was the
18 total fee to the broker Pro 100 for these
19 closings?
20 A. Approximately $200.00 apiece. Most of them
21 were minimal transactions for vacant lots. A
22 couple of them were for houses in the
23 $190,000.00, $150,000.00 range. I don't have
24 the total dollars off the top of my head.
25 Q. What would that percentage be, about 7
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1 percent?
2 A. Well, some of those would vary. The ones
3 that I dealt directly with the property
4 owners typically it would have been 3 percent
5 of the sales price. The ones that were
6 listed by other companies it would have been
7 6 or 7 percent commission and Pro 100 would
8 have gotten 45 or 50 percent of that
9 commission and Pro 100 shared that 45 or 50
10 percent which was 20 percent.
11 Q. Now that's not a lot of money, but it's
12 certainly money?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. As I understand it you were purchasing homes
15 from people in the disaster area?
16 A. I was facilitating the purchase of homes by
17 two different buyers in that area. I say
18 purchase of homes. Most of them were vacant
19 lots, there were two homes, some more or less
20 commercial locations, that kind of thing.
21 Q. At the time you were doing this facilitation
22 you were also a member of the Council?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. In fact, were you Mayor at that time?
25 A. I don't believe I was - let me look here. I
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1 was no longer Mayor at the time of any of the
2 transactions. My term as Mayor had expired
3 in early April of 2012.
4 Q. This is immediately after your term. But you
5 were still on the board?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. The Mayor thing is selected from the board
8 members pretty much on a revolving basis, I
9 guess?
10 A. There's an election of Mayor by the Council
11 every 2 years. Every Council election a new
12 Mayor is selected.
13 Q. So you, in fact, or any Council member could
14 wind up being the Mayor again?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. As long as you're on the Council?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Did you discuss with any attorney the
19 possibility of conflict of interest --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- when you were purchasing these homes?
22 A. I had a discussion with the City Attorney.
23 My principal that I was dealing with, Charles
24 Kuehn of Four State Homes, I discussed it
25 with the City Attorney a couple of times,
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1 Charlie Kuehn and I had a meeting where we
2 went to the City Attorney's office and had a
3 discussion with him about it I'm going to say
4 in probably the fall of last year.
5 Q. 2013?
6 A. August, September time frame, maybe. I don't
7 remember.
8 Q. Of '12?
9 A. Of last year, yes.
10 Q. Okay. During those discussions can you give
11 me any consensus that was arrived at?
12 A. Essentially we just talked about what we were
13 going to be doing and I just wanted to
14 protect myself in terms of the conflict of
15 interest. I got his input, his perspective
16 on it, and I don't remember his exact words,
17 but something to the effect that we just
18 would have to be careful in how we went
19 forward to make sure that I didn't do
20 something to cross the line ethically.
21 Q. As a professional I mean you have a license?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And you realize that ethics is part of the
24 profession?
25 A. Sure.
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1 Q. And that would be true of not only your
2 profession, but mine?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And so we all have when we're in one of those
5 professions we have some kind of ethical
6 responsibilities and that's what we're
7 talking about here?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Now there's another thing, you know, where
10 you're actually taking money and making money
11 off of these things and that's of course
12 maybe worse, you understand, for the law?
13 You I guess would agree on that?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. But the appearance of impropriety can be an
16 issue, and you're aware of that and have been
17 aware of that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So would it be safe to say that you
20 consciously decided to go forward and acquire
21 these properties nonetheless?
22 A. I made sure that the manner in which I worked
23 with the prospective buyer was one that did
24 not violate any ethics as per the City
25 Attorney.
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1 Q. What standard did he give you?
2 A. Essentially as I recall if I would have
3 collected money on the commissions that that
4 would be a problem.
5 Q. Well, that deals with the first half of what
6 we were talking about. It may not deal with
7 the appearance of improprieties.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. I'm probably dealing with both here today.
10 Do you follow that?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. There is a little bit of nuance there, but I
13 wanted to make sure. And I guess you
14 attempted to deal with both of them or you
15 wouldn't have gone to an attorney?
16 A. I attempted to keep myself out of hot water.
17 I don't think for anybody that does their
18 homework I don't think there's any appearance
19 of impropriety because the first property is
20 one where initially the people had planned to
21 build a commercial strip center and there was
22 no discussion of a library/theater complex.
23 The remaining properties to my knowledge
24 there is an opportunity for the buyers to
25 work in sort of a public/private partnership,
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1 but to my knowledge that agreement has not
2 been formalized in writing at this point. So
3 I've tried to avoid the appearance of
4 impropriety even though to my knowledge
5 there's not a written agreement that that
6 will involve public money at this point. My
7 understanding still right now it would be a
8 private sector project.
9 Q. This property has been acquired for what
10 purpose?
11 A. These properties, most of those will be --
12 Q. Let's deal with the numbers here, Number 1
13 through - let's see, Number 1 would be
14 excluded from our discussion now.
15 A. Okay. Any of the properties that were
16 purchased by the Jennings-Brown family are
17 properties that will be involved in the
18 library/theater project. Any properties
19 purchased by Four State Homes whose owner is
20 Charles Kuehn, those will be utilized for
21 retail, loft over retail project that there
22 is the possibility it may be in partnership
23 with the Wallace-Bajjali firm, but again I
24 don't know of any formalized written
25 agreement that that will take place. I
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1 avoided taking a commission because I thought
2 there might be that potential there.
3 Q. So essentially you were working for nothing?
4 A. On most of those, yes.
5 Q. So what did you accomplish by doing that?
6 A. I felt like it was an opportunity to help
7 rebuild or make some effort towards the
8 rebuilding of a particular part of the City.
9 I'm very concerned about how we go about our
10 rebuild. I think we have a once in a
11 lifetime opportunity to shape to a large
12 degree what our community looks like in the
13 next 10 or 15 or 50 years and I wanted to
14 have a part in that.
15 Q. Any of these sections of property that you
16 were involved in, do they deal with your
17 particular ward or whatever the proper term
18 is?
19 A. I'm a general Council member so I represent
20 the entire City.
21 Q. So you get elected at large?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now there are some Councilmen that are
24 elected from a certain ward?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. Okay. But at this time and in the past you
2 were --
3 A. I have always been an at large.
4 Q. It's a tougher election, isn't it?
5 A. Always competition.
6 Q. Yeah, I would think. So out of the spirit,
7 if you will, of civil pride you took part in
8 this without commission?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Now do you think if your company that you
11 work with got a commission was there any
12 special favors or gifts or benefits to you in
13 that regard?
14 A. No, nothing I got, nothing more than any
15 other agent there.
16 Q. No profit sharing of any sort?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You were not part of the ownership?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Now as a result you're still with Four State
21 Homes now?
22 A. I was never affiliated with Four State Homes.
23 Four State Homes is the company that
24 purchased a number of those properties.
25 Q. And that's Mr. Kuehn?
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1 A. Correct. I was affiliated at the time with
2 Pro 100. I'm not affiliated with New
3 Horizons Realty.
4 Q. And New Horizons, in fact, does involve Mr.
5 Kuehn?
6 A. It does not.
7 Q. Does not. Who does New Horizons involve?
8 A. Myself and a gentleman named Kevin Steele.
9 Q. Does Steele have anything to do with any of
10 these?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Who is Kevin Steele?
13 A. He's my partner. He's a commercial land
14 developer, recently got licensed as a real
15 estate agent.
16 Q. Always worked in Joplin?
17 A. No, he has worked extensively in the
18 Carolinas and Georgia and to some extent
19 here.
20 Q. Does he follow the tornados?
21 A. No, he was here prior to the tornado. He
22 actually grew up here, went to high school
23 there.
24 Q. You knew him from that?
25 A. Didn't know him from then. I've only
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1 recently gotten acquainted with him.
2 Q. Okay. So he's a transplant, but come back
3 home?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Is there any benefit in any way from any of
6 these transactions other than 1, and we'll
7 talk about 1 in a minute, I'm making
8 reference to Exhibit #5 here, Number 1 we'll
9 exclude, that's the 1825 Connecticut
10 property, but as in regards to 2 through 19
11 is there any benefit to you or to your
12 companies that you're now affiliated with
13 that results from any of your work here?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Let's chat a little bit about, if I can,
16 about number 1 on there, this 1825
17 Connecticut. Yes, that's marked on Exhibit
18 #6 here.
19 A. It's number 1 over here, yes.
20 Q. Now that was as I understand you actually got
21 paid a commission?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And how much commission did you make?
24 A. Oh, it was probably $3,000.00 or $4,000.00.
25 I don't recall.
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1 Q. Was this a building?
2 A. It was a house, an existing house.
3 Q. Existing house?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And your percent of the commission --
6 A. It previously was an existing house. After
7 the tornado it was basically just a vacant
8 lot.
9 Q. Oh, okay. It was taken out?
10 A. Correct, this whole area was in the tornado
11 path.
12 Q. Now refresh me, why do you think that that
13 commission to you is not relevant to our
14 inquiry?
15 A. When Jennings purchased that property their
16 intent - they own property here that's in
17 green and their intent after the tornado was
18 to build a strip center in this area. They
19 had an office here. Their family owned the
20 McDonald's locally, restaurants locally, and
21 they had intended initially to build some
22 sort of a commercial strip center as an
23 investment property. That was in the early
24 part of 2012. In September or October the
25 library project, which we had gotten an EDA
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1 grant to help construct, EDA said they wanted
2 that building to be rebuilt in the tornado
3 zone, so it wasn't until September or October
4 there was any discussion of building a
5 library/theater project in this area. So
6 when we closed on that property the Jennings
7 intent was to build an investment property
8 for themselves.
9 Q. And do you think that in some way makes this
10 an exception that you can take a fee?
11 A. Sure. And the City didn't even have their
12 agreement with the Wallace-Bajjali firm
13 signed until I think it was early July of
14 that year.
15 Q. What you're telling me is there was no inside
16 information?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That in any way benefited you from that?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Can you see, and I'm not meaning this as a
21 lecture, but can you see that your
22 involvement in this event has caused you a
23 lot of grief?
24 A. I don't think it's caused me a lot of grief.
25 I can see an uninformed person who didn't pay
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1 a great deal of attention to details might
2 think there was something underhanded going
3 on, but if they would look into it I think
4 I've taken very careful steps to ensure that
5 I didn't cross the line ethically and I've
6 taken what steps I could to ensure that it
7 wasn't perceived as something unethically.
8 Q. And you're making reference to maybe Mr.
9 Scearce?
10 A. Actually it's Dr. Rosenberg that said that he
11 had had comments from people that I was using
12 inside information to make money and acquire
13 these properties on the cheap, sell them at
14 an exorbitant profit, and that the
15 Wallace-Bajjali firm was purchasing them.
16 Well, in fact, the Wallace-Bajjali firm
17 hasn't purchased any of those properties and
18 relative to his reference to the exorbitant
19 prices I think this is a lot of what's
20 driving those prices up along that area,
21 that's a property right on the corner
22 immediately south, it would be this corner
23 right here that was purchased by Casey's
24 convenience store people and they paid
25 $800,000.00 for that corner.
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1 Q. For the lot?
2 A. For the lot, which was about $14.00 a foot.
3 And most of the properties we have been
4 acquiring here we've been trying to limit our
5 cost to the $4.00 to $5.00 or $6.00 per
6 square foot range. So it's not the
7 properties that I've been involved with that
8 have driven the price, it's this parcel
9 that's driven the price.
10 Q. And you're making reference to what I have
11 marked as Exhibit #11?
12 A. Yes. And I would point out, by the way, I
13 had nothing to do with the transaction in
14 Exhibit #11.
15 Q. Yes, I'm going to give you Exhibit #6 and I
16 want that big dark green marker we've got. I
17 would like you to put an "X" on where Exhibit
18 #11 would be if you understood what I said.
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Put an "X" in there and put your initials
21 there.
22 A. (Witness complies)
23 Q. Okay. Have you done that, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Put a green "X" on Exhibit #11 with your
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1 initials?
2 A. "MRW".
3 Q. "MRW", okay. So the record reflects what
4 we're trying to get at here. What else in
5 these exhibits are there that you would - for
6 example, I'm going to give you Exhibit #8 and
7 I'm going to give you Exhibit #9.
8 A. Exhibit #8 is a listing of Council votes from
9 September 2012 through September 2013. This
10 list was requested by Dr. Rosenberg of the
11 City Clerk, and I have gone through it.
12 There was one indication that I've used
13 inside information to make money off these
14 transactions and I've highlighted in this
15 list those properties or those votes where I
16 have abstained because anything relative to
17 Four State Homes or Charlie Kuehn when that
18 comes to a Council vote whether it be a
19 zoning issue, a special use permit, whatever
20 the case, I have abstained on those because
21 of my financial involvement with him. And
22 I've merely marked those because those were
23 available to me already, I merely marked
24 those where I have abstained so that you
25 could find where I've abstained. You might
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1 want to go back to actually the tornado to
2 get additional Council votes to find where I
3 have abstained because most of these I looked
4 up and have provided copies of in Exhibit #9
5 and most of them don't really have anything
6 to do with Mr. Kuehn. Certainly not to the
7 extent of the ones that I have abstained. So
8 there are more abstentions that I've got out
9 there, they just don't happen to be on this
10 list. But on the ones on this list of
11 Exhibit #8 I have provided a copy of the
12 agenda, on Exhibit #9 and the caption for
13 each of those Council bills so that you would
14 know what the topic.
15 Q. To show what the topic was and that you
16 abstained?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. If I were to go back through the tornado
19 notes, and I mean everything we do costs
20 money, exorbitant money, but if we did pull
21 all of those and we went through and I
22 brought you back in here and we talked about
23 those you're telling me that any time you
24 were involved in some with Four Seasons or
25 with --
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1 A. Four State Homes.
2 Q. -- Four State Homes or with Charlie you would
3 have abstained?
4 A. That is correct. For instance, I'm looking
5 at Exhibit #9, the last page on Council bill
6 2013-297, it's a vacation of a utility
7 easement on a property where he's doing a
8 project. On looking at page 3 of Exhibit #9,
9 Council bill 2013-294, the Salvation Army is
10 going to build a new building. I've been
11 keeping in contact with them to try to get an
12 opportunity bid that project. So I don't
13 have a financial involvement in that point
14 yet. I potentially might, but we're just
15 trying to get an opportunity to bid the
16 project knowing that we may not get it due to
17 our bid. So I've abstained on that just
18 because the potential is there, even though
19 there's no financial interest in it at this
20 time. So those are some examples of why I
21 have abstained simply because I didn't want
22 the appearance of impropriety to be out there
23 so anything that Four State Homes or Charlie
24 Kuehn has been involved in, whether
25 personally or his company, I have abstained.
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1 Q. How long does that go back?
2 A. I first got involved and began to work with
3 him probably within a couple of months after
4 the tornado. I'd say probably August of
5 2011. And that's why if you go back and
6 check the record the Council bills listed in
7 Exhibit #8 only go back to September 2012.
8 If you go back to August of 2011 you probably
9 would find more abstentions.
10 Q. You're saying I would find more?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And this is because of the relationship
13 you've got with Charlie?
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. Now Charlie has expressed some concern for
16 you not making money. What's that all about?
17 A. He's just a stand-up guy, I guess. He knows
18 that nobody can survive without making an
19 income. And I'm fortunate enough that I've
20 had income from other real estate
21 transactions and so although it's difficult
22 to give those up still I can survive and make
23 a living based on my other properties, or
24 transactions I've been involved in.
25 Q. What was it that he's trying to do to help
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1 you make money?
2 A. He's not necessarily trying to help me make
3 money, but we continue to work together on
4 various projects. He has a number of
5 investors with whom he works, several of them
6 are building commercial buildings. We are
7 working together to find tenants for those.
8 Another instance is the Salvation Army
9 building. I'm trying to once they're ready
10 to put their building out for bid I'm trying
11 to have a contact with them such that we
12 would have an opportunity to take their
13 request for bid, put a bid together, and
14 submit it to them so that he might get the
15 construction work from that project. So we
16 continue to work together because I think we
17 have a mutual interest in rebuilding the city
18 in a positive way and influencing what our
19 city looks like going forward after the
20 tornado.
21 Q. Of course Charlie also wants to make money?
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. And I assume you do?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. So I mean the road that you're following in
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1 this regard is going to be all these lined
2 with mine fields?
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. And that's something that you're willing to
5 put up with and be an alderman?
6 A. For now, yes.
7 Q. Okay. How would the City identify projects
8 that Charlie is thinking about that the City
9 doesn't know about yet that you do?
10 A. The City to my knowledge wouldn't have any
11 way to identify something that he's just
12 thinking about.
13 Q. And working on.
14 A. At some point through the permitting process
15 he has to initiate some kind of action to get
16 City's approval for building permits or
17 zoning or alley vacations or whatever the
18 case, and the City would know at that point
19 in addition to my disclosing that I had some
20 involvement with him on a particular project.
21 Q. And I assume that on those kinds of projects
22 you're going to be acutely aware that you
23 need to abstain and not talk to zoning
24 people?
25 A. Certainly.
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1 Q. And of course as I understand your city, if
2 you as an alderman talk with somebody in the
3 Zoning Department trying to favorably impress
4 them to make a decision you could be
5 impeached for that?
6 A. I probably could. I talk with them
7 frequently on Charlie's projects and other
8 projects, but typically what I request is so
9 that I understand what they need or
10 understand the process. It's never to lobby
11 for what he's doing. And frequently when I
12 go down there I'll let them know that I'm
13 there as a private member of the community as
14 opposed to a Council member requesting
15 information.
16 Q. But it also identifies to those zoning people
17 or those people in the City that this is a
18 project that you might be involved with and
19 maybe they're going to treat it more
20 gingerly?
21 A. Obviously they know that I'm a Council member
22 and I worry about that on occasion because
23 I'm sure that we as Council members get
24 treated a little differently than any other
25 private citizen when we go in making
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1 essentially the same request.
2 Q. I'll guarantee you do.
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. I mean they work for you.
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. So that could cause some degree or
7 consternation on the part of an adverse
8 decision by those City employees. Do you
9 understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you still choose to do that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You know, it's a matter of you making money,
14 I suppose.
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. And not giving up political power in the
17 City, is that right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Now I know that at some point in the past
20 I've seen something somewhere it seems to me
21 that Attorney Head had written some kind of
22 opinion.
23 A. If you'll look at Exhibit #10 at the Mayor's
24 request I think probably by another Council
25 member.
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1 Q. Who was that?
2 A. Don't know. I was not told. But at the
3 Mayor's request the City Attorney conducted
4 an investigation and he issued a written
5 opinion dated April 26th of this year
6 basically stating that he had looked into my
7 involvement with Mr. Kuehn and quoting the
8 City Attorney, "It does not appear that any
9 violation occurred." At the end of the memo
10 he reiterates, again quoting, "It is our
11 opinion that Council member Woolston has not
12 violated any provisions of statute or code,"
13 so my opinion this has been investigated
14 before, but per Dr. Rosenberg he's been
15 getting questions from the public and I don't
16 have any problem answering the public's
17 questions. I think those questions need to
18 be answered because I think the public needs
19 to have confidence that there's nothing
20 underhanded going on at the Council level.
21 The only way to do that is to answer their
22 questions so I have welcomed this
23 investigation even given its cause. And some
24 people in the public have admonished Council
25 members generally for spending the money that
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1 it's going to cost, but again I think our
2 entire recovery is at stake. If the public
3 believes that the Council is doing something
4 under the table or something that's improper
5 and that's why I called for the investigation
6 of Mr. Scearce and the FBI file because the
7 public has those questions, and until they
8 get answers those questions are going to
9 continue to be out there. And so we've got
10 to get a look at that FBI file in order to
11 answer the questions to reassure them that
12 either something was done wrong or something
13 wasn't. And I'm not saying he's done
14 anything wrong. I don't have any evidence
15 one way or the other. I'm just saying the
16 public's questions have to be answered and
17 the only way to get those answers is to get
18 that file. But if the public has questions
19 about me and my involvement I'll be happy to
20 visit with any of them or answer any
21 questions because I've done nothing wrong.
22 Q. Of course that same position is taken and has
23 been taken by Mr. Scearce?
24 A. True.
25 Q. So he may have not done anything wrong
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1 either?
2 A. And he may not have.
3 Q. I mean this perception issue that's going on
4 here seems to be the real enemy.
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. And you know dealing with real estate
7 sometimes perception on a piece of property
8 can devaluate its cost?
9 A. Sure.
10 Q. You're aware of that kind of thing?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. Somebody get killed or something on a
13 property and blames bloody murder, nobody
14 wants to buy it because there's ghosts in
15 there or blood on the floor.
16 A. True.
17 Q. You know, perception is an issue. I guess
18 that's what we're dealing with here.
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Maybe we'll do more and maybe we'll find it.
21 But I'm going to ask you a question and I'm
22 not trying to trick you, I'm going to inform
23 you, and maybe you don't know, but is Charlie
24 Kuehn registered as a lobbyist?
25 A. I don't know that he is or isn't.
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1 Q. There is a state statute on that. Did you
2 know that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You know, Charlie is in a position that it
5 looks to me, and I'll be talking to Charlie
6 if he'll come in, and I don't want you to
7 talk about what we talk in here, we're trying
8 to keep this, you know, as secret as
9 possible, but Charlie is in a position that
10 he influences public voters. You know,
11 you're a public voter and you vote and you're
12 a public official. Now you're trying to make
13 it - I mean it sounds to me like you're
14 trying to not vote on anything that Charlie
15 deals with.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. But the perception of that issue if Charlie
18 is not registered as a local lobbyist that
19 could be an issue here.
20 A. I wouldn't disagree with you because I don't
21 know, but I don't think that's probably any
22 different than any other real estate agent
23 that represents a client that goes to
24 advocate for a particular zoning issue or
25 neighbors that come forward to advocate for
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1 somebody that's trying to get labor on a
2 privacy fence or something like that, I don't
3 think probably there's any desire to do
4 something inappropriate. I think that people
5 that should be registered as a lobbyist and
6 aren't it's simply because they don't know
7 they should.
8 Q. Okay. I just mention that to you because I'm
9 not trying to blindside anybody.
10 A. Sure. I just think there's probably at a
11 City Council level there's probably a lot of
12 people come forward and advocate a position
13 not knowing that they should be registered or
14 not.
15 Q. I think you're right. But if they regularly
16 do that I think there is a state statute on
17 that. So we might want to look at that.
18 A. And I think that would be something that if
19 there is and it would be applicable I would
20 think that our local board of realtors would
21 want to know that so they can get that
22 information out to the realtor community to
23 make sure those people get registered or
24 being cautious about how they advocate --
25 Q. Good point.
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1 A. -- for their clients.
2 Q. Good point. It's something that, you know,
3 I've done this considerable times and I've
4 seen things like that. I think it
5 inadvertently happened, but there is
6 something to deal with there. On the state
7 level you can lobby all you want, but you do
8 have to be a lobbyist.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. I mean you can say anything you want to those
11 guys up there, but I think they're just
12 asking for registration on those things so
13 that people can be identified as to who is
14 influencing policy.
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. In your opinion you've not made any profit in
17 any way on anything that has arisen before
18 you as a Councilman?
19 A. With one exception in that area.
20 Q. That's the number 1 we've been talking about
21 in the exhibit?
22 A. Correct. There are other projects where I
23 have been involved with Mr. Kuehn and other
24 investors, I have abstained on those because
25 I have collected commission on some of those,
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1 so they are not in areas where there is going
2 to be any public money involvement, but again
3 that's just part of the intricacies of my
4 involvement with Mr. Kuehn is that we're not
5 limited to just this one project.
6 Q. Let me ask you this question. There's a
7 theater issue going on now?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And has the property been identified?
10 A. Yes, that's the 18th and Connecticut
11 property.
12 Q. Do other people know that?
13 A. It's been in the newspaper a number of times.
14 It's all this property right here in the
15 orange and green.
16 Q. And that's where a theater is going to be
17 built?
18 A. The City has currently a library downtown and
19 the library people would like to move,
20 enlarge their space. They have identified
21 that area of town where they should be given
22 their people they market to. As I said in
23 September or October of 2012 I guess it was
24 the EDA said that for the money that they had
25 given the City they wanted the library built
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1 in the tornado zone so that then prompted a
2 discussion of this particular area here. So
3 at that point there began to be some
4 discussion of a library project there as a
5 way for the library. To have some sustaining
6 revenue someone came up with the idea of
7 putting in a movie theater up above and let
8 the lease payments from the movie theater
9 company pay the expenses of the library, so
10 that's where this library/major theater
11 concept came from. But again my
12 understanding or recollection is that the
13 discussion of that particular location did
14 not occur until September or October of 2012.
15 Q. September '12. That was after the tornado?
16 A. About 15 months after.
17 Q. Is there a ravine that runs through there or
18 a ditch or something?
19 A. No, there's a storm water drainage ditch a
20 couple of blocks to the west.
21 Q. Anything else that you should tell me before
22 I go on to different topics about this
23 particular thing or anything in general?
24 A. Can't think of anything. I think all the
25 documents that I provided should be pretty
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1 linear in terms of pointing you as to what
2 I've done and been involved in.
3 Q. Are you aware of any of the facts surrounding
4 the famous note?
5 A. Just as I recall from newspaper accounts the
6 note supposedly has the name of the local
7 newspaper editor on it, an individual's name,
8 and a phone number, and I don't know if the
9 phone number - I assume was for the Joplin
10 Globe - that supposed is in the handwriting
11 of the City Manager. Beyond that I really
12 don't know.
13 Q. How did you get that information?
14 A. Newspaper.
15 Q. What is your perception on the City Manager's
16 position that it was stolen off his desk?
17 A. I don't know how it was acquired and I really
18 don't understand the relevance of the note.
19 If it's in his handwriting his secretary
20 could have told them that the editor called,
21 here was her phone number, and this is who
22 she wanted to talk about. I don't know that
23 it really tells you anything in my mind. I
24 think the greater concern or question in the
25 public's mind is how did it go from the City
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1 Manager's desk or office to Mr. Scearce's
2 position. I think that's the good question.
3 Q. And you don't know that?
4 A. I don't have any idea. I know Mr. Scearce
5 mentioned to me at the time of the Council
6 meeting when the discussion was to hire an
7 investigation Mr. Scearce and I left Council
8 chambers, stepped out in the hall, he went
9 out one door, I went out the door on the
10 other side of the room and he came around to
11 where I was sitting, and the speaker system
12 is such that out in the hallway you can hear
13 what's going on inside the chamber. And
14 someone brought that up about the note and he
15 said it was taken off of the floor, but he
16 didn't say by who. He has since indicated
17 that he'll provide a chain of custody, how he
18 came into possession of that, so that's all I
19 know about that.
20 Q. And what role do you believe that has to do
21 with anything?
22 A. I really don't see that it has any role. I
23 mean I don't know that there's any
24 information on there that tells you anything
25 one way or the other. Again I think the
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1 bigger question is how did it go from the
2 City Manager's office to Mr. Scearce's
3 possession.
4 Q. And my comments earlier were on the purchase
5 or sale of homes. Obviously I intended that
6 to be extended to leasing or anything of that
7 nature. Your answers would not change?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And do you claim to have any inside knowledge
10 at all about Scearce's bookmaking history?
11 A. No. I know he's fairly interested in sports,
12 but beyond that I don't have a great deal of
13 knowledge.
14 Q. Is this something that, and I guess - I mean
15 you asked for the inquiry.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Are you interested in impeaching him for some
18 particular specific purpose?
19 A. Not particularly impeach him, I just think
20 that the public has questions about what was
21 going on and what his level of involvement
22 was. My assumption is that if there was any
23 criminal involvement he would have been
24 charged by the FBI.
25 Q. That's kind of what I think.
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1 A. So since they didn't charge him I'm assuming
2 there was no criminal things. But the FBI
3 doesn't look for violations of Council ethics
4 or rules or whatever, and given the public's
5 questions I think that's what the Council has
6 to determine. What I'm looking for from you
7 as the investigator is to get that file
8 eventually, go through it, and tell us any
9 pertinent information relative to his
10 involvement at the Council ethics, rules, or
11 whatever the case, and then Council would
12 decide if there was anything inappropriate or
13 not. And so I think again --
14 Q. To do that one has to get the FBI file.
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. And also to do that one has to have
17 cooperation on the Police Chief?
18 A. Sure. And I think you'd get that. But I
19 think the public has questions and if those
20 questions aren't answered I think the
21 credibility of the Council is at risk, people
22 will lose confidence in the Council
23 decisions, and I think if that happens our
24 recovery, which even at the federal level
25 they rave about how well we have done, if the
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1 public loses trust in the Council's
2 leadership and decisions the recovery is
3 going to stop. At whatever point that
4 happens we'll be at that same point 10, 15,
5 20 years down the road and that's my concern.
6 That's why I called for the investigation
7 because the public has got questions and
8 those questions need to be answered in order
9 for us to stay on a positive path.
10 Q. When I issue the report traditionally my
11 reports don't let go of these interviews. Do
12 you understand why?
13 A. Sure.
14 Q. I mean these interviews are extremely
15 sensitive issues for everybody. You know, I
16 will tell you that we try to keep this all
17 within the confines of this room, but there
18 are other issues that pop up when these
19 things happen.
20 A. Sure, and I can understand your desire to
21 limit the information to this room because of
22 things that may be involved, other people. I
23 don't know what everybody else has
24 interviewed, how that's gone, but I will tell
25 you I would have no problem with you
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1 releasing my interview. I would give the
2 media the same answers that I've given you.
3 Again I don't feel that I've done anything
4 wrong and I think I've made not an
5 extraordinary effort, but I've certainly made
6 a concerted effort to avoid any conflict of
7 interest and I think I've proven that once
8 you go through here so I'm very comfortable
9 with the public knowing what I've said in my
10 answers to your questions.
11 Q. Would you be interested - you don't view this
12 as my employer, you'd be interested to know
13 that Mr. Scearce feels the same way? I mean
14 does that surprise you?
15 A. No, not really. And like I said I don't know
16 the extent of what he's done or not done so I
17 can't make a judgment until I do know that.
18 Q. But I just mean I find it interesting that I
19 think you - you know, we have obviously a
20 divided Council to some extent, but that's
21 not all bad, you know. I mean nobody ever
22 said that's bad.
23 A. There needs to be healthy discussion --
24 Q. Absolutely.
25 A. -- and agreement for the public's benefit.
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1 Q. Absolutely. And I just don't - but sometimes
2 these things, like a blood clot, just all of
3 a sudden it gets cut loose because of some
4 other activity and it's collateral damage.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. And we may have some of that in this case.
7 So anything else that we should talk about
8 then?
9 A. I don't know if there's anything else
10 officially we should talk about. I'd just be
11 curious about the time line of how you see
12 this going. I really can't complete the
13 thing on him until you get the FBI file so
14 there's no way of knowing how long that's
15 going to take.
16 Q. Well, I'll be frank with you. I've been
17 Assistant U.S. Attorney and I have worked
18 with the FBI when I've been out of the U.S.
19 Attorney's office and I'll be surprised if
20 you get an FBI report on that issue ever.
21 And, you know, I've got a couple of witnesses
22 that I probably will - it's not just my
23 opinion, and I will probably in this report
24 disclose that, but I think that's going to be
25 very frustrating and some people just won't
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1 cooperate and I'm surprised.
2 Q. And that's part of the reason I called for an
3 investigation in hopes that the City through
4 you would request exactly the same
5 information that's been requested by the
6 Globe and then we would send letters to our
7 federal legislatures copying them on our
8 request and hopefully that will get the FBI's
9 attention. It may not. But my hope was that
10 given that additional letter and our federal
11 legislatures have been contacted or copied on
12 it that the FBI would speed up the process by
13 which they're getting to us. According to
14 the Globe what they've said is that the FBI
15 is redacting what they don't want to reveal
16 or whatever so I guess that's where we're at.
17 Q. I'll let you know right now I've talked with
18 two people that have supposed knowledge in
19 this and both of them have nothing to say and
20 are under admonition by the FBI not to deal
21 with it. And it doesn't deal with this guy
22 anyway, it deals with bigger issues.
23 A. Because that stuff I don't care about.
24 They're supposed to have taken care whatever
25 interest they have in those other people.
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1 But I'm also interested in your final report.
2 Knowing that you may never get that FBI file
3 that's kind of an open ended time frame. If
4 you conclude your investigation on me, and I
5 would think you could probably get that
6 wrapped up in a week or less, once you draw
7 your conclusions on that are you going to
8 hold that until and give the entire report at
9 one time, or are you going to --
10 Q. No, I'll give the entire report at one time
11 and it will probably be done before December.
12 I don't see an issue past that. And if
13 there is we can revisit it, but I don't see
14 any.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. So I don't think I have anything further.
17 Let me just briefly scan a couple of notes
18 I've got and then we'll kind of wrap our
19 situation up here. And what was that in
20 reference to? I forgot his name, I'm sorry.
21 A. My partner, my current --
22 Q. Oh, yeah, current. That's New Horizons?
23 A. Correct.
24 (Short break taken 3:23 to 3:24 p.m., back on
25 record)
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1 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Councilman Woolston, I have
2 appreciate your cooperation.
3 A. Do you have any questions on the information
4 that I've provided that I can clarify while
5 I'm here?
6 Q. I think not. And if there becomes an issue
7 that I'd like to talk about later I'll chat
8 with you if possible. I would bring it to
9 your attention to try not to talk to anybody
10 about this.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. I mean one of my admonishments if you were a
13 City employee I would tell you if you talk
14 about it you're subjecting yourself to
15 discipline. Obviously I can't tell you that,
16 but I want you to try to honor that.
17 A. You don't want people collaborating on their
18 stories.
19 Q. No, we really don't.
20 A. Understand.
21 Q. Thank you, sir, for your help. I do
22 appreciate it.
23 A. All right.
24 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)
25
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1
2
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF MISSOURI
ss.
COUNTY OF JASPER
I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the
State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the
foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 6th
day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was
examined. That examination was then taken by me by
steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn
Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set
out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith
returned.
I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or
relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of
either party or of the attorney of either party, or
otherwise interested in the event of this suit.
________________________
SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650