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Forgiveness: An InterviewAuthor(s): Julia Kristeva and Alison RiceSource: PMLA, Vol. 117, No. 2 (Mar., 2002), pp. 278-295Published by: Modern Language AssociationStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/823274 .
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PMLA
theories and
methodologies
Forgiveness:AnInterview
Introduction
JULIA KRISTEVA
JULIA RISTEVAs a linguist,psychoana-
lyst, critical heorist, and novelist. She
moved to Paris romher nativeBulgaria
in 1966 and began her prolificcareer
with contributions to literaryreviews,
notablyTelquel,beforethe 1974 publi-
cation of her monumentaldoctoral he-
sis, Larevolutiondu langage poetique
(Revolution n PoeticLanguage).
Kris-
teva teaches at the Universitede Paris
VII,where she directs he doctoralpro-
gram in textual studies and the newly
founded InstitutRolandBarthes.
The Englishversion of the interview s
translatedbyAlisonRice.Her ranscrip-
tion of the originalconversationbegins
on page 288.
278
THIS NTERVIEWITH ULIAKRISTEVA,ONDUCTEDON 25 APRIL
2000, FOCUSESON FORGIVENESS, TOPICTHATIS RECEIVING
considerableattention worldwide.1Numerous nations around the globehaverecentlyextendedapologies to specificgroups of people, includingSouthAfrica,o victimsof apartheid; ritain,o the Maoripeople;Australia,
to stolenaboriginal hildren;he UnitedStates, o NativeAmericans,apa-nese Americans,and AfricanAmericans; nd Germany,o victims of the
Holocaust.This remarkablenternational roliferationf requests orfor-
giveness orwrongdoingand of attemptso makeamends has notescapedthe attention f prominentiteraryritics ndphilosophers.
InFrance,cholarsrecognizehe importance f forgivenessnotjustas
a themein literature ndhistorybut also as a critical rameworkhroughwhichwe can viewthe modernworld.Suchdiverse vents as theadmission
by Francehat t administeredorturenAlgeria nd the UnitedStatespresi-
dentBillClinton'sgrantingof questionablepardonsat the close of his sec-
ond term in office have contributed o an ongoing discussion of what
forgivenessconsists of, who can forgive,and under whatcircumstances
forgiveness an occur.
Kristeva'sommentson forgiveness anthereforebeseen as partof the
currentxploration f thetopicinFrance. aulRicoeurecently ublishedLa
memoire, 'histoire,'oubli "Memory, istory,Forgetting'),n encyclopedicworkon the problematic elationsof history,memory,andjustice.He de-
votes a long epilogueto "pardon ifficile,"he hardshipof reconcilingwith
the past;Ricoeur eeks to distinguishbetweenthe criminal nd the crime,between orgivenessandforgetting. n hisanalysis,we shouldnot forgeta
crimebut shouldforgive he personwho committedt.This s a distinction
thatotherscholarshavecarefullystablished s well, ncludingKristeva.2
Pardon ndrepentancewerethefocusof JacquesDerrida'seminarat
the Ecoledes HautesEtudes n SciencesSociales rom1997to 2000.Derrida
hasformulated definition f forgiveness hattakesintoaccount tspreva-
lence n Christianountriesandhas beenespecially ttentiveo the increas-
? 2002 BY THE MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA
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JuliaKristeva 279
ingnumber f public pologies ncountriesforeignto theJudeo-Christianradition. omeof hissignif-icantreflections n thetopicwerepublishednthe
form of an interview, Le iecleet le pardon""The
Century nd Forgiveness"),n 1999.Aresponseto
Derrida ythesociologist EdgarMorinpresentsa
verydifferentthical ndrational ointof view.3
Kristeva raws fromsome of Derrida's ub-lishedstatementsin formingher opinion;in re-
sponse to what she perceives o be his"utopian"
vision, heinsists hatforgivenessmustbe limitedo
theprivatephereof human nteraction. hesocial
arena swhere riminalsmustbetriedandpunishedfor theiractions.WhileKristevaoes notexplicitly
address hewidespread oldingof publicribunalsthatseekto cometo termswith roublesomepasts,sheiscertainlypeakingnthiscontext. hemakes t
clearwithrespectto the Holocaust hat criminals
can beforgiven, utonlyaftertheyhavemaderepa-
rations, xpressedremorse, ndindicated desire
totransformhemselves ndbeginagain.
Forgiveness asplayeda conspicuousrolein
Kristeva'sliteraryriticism,romherstudyof Fyodor
Dostoevsky's ovelsinher bookon melancholyn
Westernculture,Soleil noir:Depression
t melan-
colie Blackun:DepressionndMelancholia),o her
reflection njudgmentand time inher recentvol-
umeHannahArendt.These wosubstantialworks,written vertenyearsapart, pproach orgivenessfromdifferentangles.Kristeva'surrentopinionson
thetopicarethus informedbyherfamiliarity ith
the Christianhemes of Dostoevsky'snovelsand
with heJewish raditioninfluencing rendt'sphilo-
sophical houghtbutattest o Kristeva'sknowledgeof psychoanalysisndsemiologyaswell.
Kristevaikens he psychoanalyticureto theact of forgivenessnherstudyof Arendt'swritings.Inthis firstvolumeof a triptych n "women'sge-nius,"Kristevaarguesthatgivingmeaningbeyondthe nonmeaning f the anguishedpatient'srauma
empowersthe patient o be bornagain, ust as a
forgiven ubject indsnew lifeandstartsoverfol-
lowing a pardon. In Larevolte ntime (Intimate
Revolt), publicationoriginating n herdoctoral
courseattheUniversite e ParisVII,Kristevamain-
tainsthatforgivenesss not a psychoanalyticon-
cept,butshe demonstrateshatthe interpretationinanalysiseffectivelyreatesa situation hat facili-
tates healingandforgiveness.She insists thather
workon melancholy nSoleilnoir helpedherto
see the connection betweenthisJudeo-Christian
notionand itscontinuation n the psychoanalyticcure.4Herelaborations nthe following nterview
clearly how that itwould be difficulto overesti-
matethe importance f psychoanalysisn herun-
derstandingf forgiveness.
Shortlyafter the publicationof Soleil noir,
Kristevagrantedthe philosopherOlivierAbelan
interview n forgiveness "Dostoievski').he nter-
view, nwhichAbelquotesextensivelyromKriste-va'sstudyof forgiveness n Dostoevsky'swritings,was publishedwitharticlesand other interviews
withcriticsikeJeanBaudrillardn a collectionde-
votedto thequestionof forgiveness s a meansof
overcomingdebtand forgetting.Sincethis inter-
viewappeared,n 1991,Kristevaas addressed he
topicindifferentsettingsandfroma variety f an-
gles,but littleof these proceedingshas beenpub-lished. In the following interview,I draw from
commentsKristevamade at two recentcolloqui-ums,whereshe responded o the currentntellec-
tualdebateon forgiveness. also incorporateher
perspective n the matteras she described t ina
personalpiece publishedas a "journal ntry" n
the dailyFrenchnewspaperLiberation;hisreflec-
tivecontributiononcentrates n the rolesof writ-
ingandlanguage n herown questforforgiveness("Monournal").nmyquestions, herefore, refer
to printedand unprinted ources in an effortto
elicitKristeva'suniqueperspective n forgiveness.
She respondsby combiningcomplextheoreticalideas withpersonalanecdotesandexamples.
While heinterviewoes notfocus on particu-larpoliticalituations,with heexception f several
allusionsto the Holocaust,Kristeva'slaboration
of herconceptionof "par-don"onethelesscarries
implicationsor a numberof recentproceedings.Herinsistenceon reservingforgiveness for the
private pheremightappear o contradict fforts
to establishsome sort of collectiveforgiveness.
re
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280 Forgiveness:An Interview
But it is clear that the aims of South Africa'sTruth
and Reconciliation Commission, for example, are
in tandem with Kristeva'sunderstanding of for-
giveness. The storytelling by victimsand perpetra-
tors that is inherent to efforts at reconciliation,not
only in South Africa but in South American coun-
tries like Chile and Argentina as well, reflects Kris-
teva's assertion that speaking of trauma is crucial
to forgiveness. She strongly supports acknowl-
edging responsibilityand making reparations.She
believes in the creation of a narrative that does
not erase the past but transcends it, allowing the
subject to start anew, which is the ultimategoal of
forgiveness and the evidence of its effectiveness.
Creating a narrative, translating experienceinto words, is an ongoing process. Forgiveness,for
Kristeva,s more than a single occurrence. It s a way
of livingin and perceivingthe world that promotes
constant development and continual renewal. It is
a comprehension of the other that goes beyond
rationalization and univocal logic to interpretthe
reprehensible act in terms that will enable the per-
petratorto behave differently n the future.Forgive-
ness is not limited to relationships with others,
though. Perhaps ts most important orm is forgive-
ness of oneself, which permits personal rebirthand
an optimisticadvancementtoward new horizons.
Alison Rice
Universityof California,Los Angeles
NOTES
I translate he Frenchpardonas "forgiveness"because
"pardon" n English often suggests an official reprieve,
whereas ts cognatein Frenchhas wider mplications.2 In her study of forgiveness in the work of Hannah
Arendt,Kristevamakessure o emphasize heresultof such a
distinction:"forgivenesss directed oward heperson,not the
act.One cannot orgivemurder rtheft,only themurderer r
the thief. In addressingsomeonerather hansomething,for-
givenessreveals tself as an act of love"("lepardon 'adresse
a la personne,non B 'acte. Onne peut pardonnere meurtre
oule vol, seulement e meurtrier u le voleur.En s'adressant
quelqu'un et non a quelque chose, le pardon se d6voile
commeacte d'amour ...]"; HannahArendt361;my trans.).
3Morincharacterizeshis approach o the issue as "prag-matic" and "political"("pragmatique,voire politique") in
contrast o Derrida'sanalysis,which in Morin's words "iso-
lates the questionof forgivenessfrom its contexts" "isole la
questiondupardonde ses contextes";26, 24; my trans.).For
Morin,forgiveness does nothave to be "unconditional" nd
"pure" o be effective; he maintains thatrepentanceis not
evennecessary orpardon o takeplace,sinceforgivenesscan
often bringabout a subsequentchange of heartandtherebyresult n personal ransformation. hekey differencebetween
the two sides of the debate ies in their definitions.For Der-
rida,only theunforgivable an be forgiven,and no crime s so
great hat t falls outsidethispossibility.ForMorin,there are
cases that render orgiveness impossible. Morin's criticism
that Derrida ails to contextualize his discussion on forgive-
ness seems to me unfounded:Derridadirectlyaddressesand
reflectson actualpolitical situations, herebyprovidingcon-
creteexamplesto supporthis arguments.4See "Lepardonpeut-il guerir?," transcription f Kris-
teva's course lecture of 16 Jan. 1996, in La revolte intime
25-44.
WORKSITED
Derrida, acques."Lesiecle et le pardon."nterviewwith Mi-
chel Wieviorka.Le mondedes debatsDec. 1999: 10-17.
Kristeva,Julia."DostoYevski, ne poetique du pardon." n-terviewwith Olivier Abel. Lepardon: Briser la dette et
l'oubli. Ed. Abel. Paris:Autrement,1991. 83-96.
. Hannah Arendt.Paris:Fayard, 1999. Vol. 1 of Le
genie feminin. Trans. as Hannah Arendt. Trans.Ross
Guberman.New York:ColumbiaUP,2001.
- . "Mon ournalde la semaine:Diversit6dans la tem-
pete."Liberation 1-2 Jan. 2000. 19 Dec. 2001 <http://
www.liberation.com/quotidien/debats/janvier00/20000101a.html>.
. La revolteintime.Paris:Fayard,1997. Trans.as In-
timateRevolt:The Powersand Limitsof Psychoanalysis.
Trans.JeanineHerman.New York:ColumbiaUP,2002.
. Soleil noir: Depression et milancolie. Paris: Galli-
mard,1987.Trans.as BlackSun:Depressionand Melan-
cholia. Trans.Leon S. Roudiez. New York: Columbia
UP, 1989.
Morin, Edgar. "Pardonner,c'est r6sister a la cruaut6 du
monde." Interview with Sophie Gherardiand Michel
Wieviorka.Le mondedes debatsFeb. 2000: 24-26.
Ricoeur,Paul. La memoire,l'histoire, l'oubli. Paris:Seuil,
2000.
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Julia Kristeva 281
Forgiveness:nInterview
Alison Rice: In an article in Liberationdated
1-2 January2000, you gave the ollowing defini-tion offorgiveness: "to give meaning beyond
nonmeaning"("Monjournal"). Does forgive-
nessalwaysconsistofan attribution f meaning?
Are there acts offorgiveness that recognize an
absenceof meaning?What s the roleof compre-
hensionin orgiveness? Canoneforgive without
understanding?
Julia Kristeva: The definition I provided is
uniquelymy own and involves an appropriation
of themeaningof the word"forgiveness"ccord-
ing to my practiceas a psychoanalyst.To come
backto the source,we must rememberhat n re-
ligion-since thetermcomes froma perspective
thatis essentially religious-forgiveness is un-
derstood to be the suspensionof judgment.It is
the act by which one forbidsjudging andstops
time,whichproceedstowardvengeance,and al-
lows the personwho committed thereprehensi-ble act tobegin anew,to takeup another ife and
anotheractivity.This is a relativelyrecentprac-tice, accordingto HannahArendt,who focused
on the topic-in a profoundway-and noticed
thatthispracticewas unknown o the Greeks.1A
certainversioncan be foundamongtheRomans,
who sparedthe lives of hostages, for example,but it is a practicethat took hold in the Western
worldthroughJudaism,where we find the idea
of kippur,andin Christianity.The fundamental
question, n these tworeligions,is that of know-
ing whoforgives.Is Godtheonly one capableof
stoppingtime,of no longerjudging,of allowingsomeone a beginning, or can humanbeings do
this too? HannahArendtseems to accorda greatdeal of importanceto the Christianstandpoint,whichinsists on theresponsibilityof the subject,who mustbeginby forgivingothersorby forgiv-
ing himself orherself beforeGod intervenes.We
could elaborateat length on the religious prac-tice and its extension,but frommy experienceI
wantedto say two things.First,forgivenessas I
see it does not effacethe act or theculpability. ttakesintoaccountandcomprehendsboth the act
in its horrorandthe guilt. But since it does not
constitute an erasure,forgiveness is a question
of hearing herequestof the subjectwho desires
forgivenessand,oncethisrequesthasbeenheard,
of allowingrenewal,rebirth.
How can this rebirth akeplace? In my un-
derstanding,here s onlyonepossibility,and hat
is to give aninterpretationo the act.Is this inter-
pretationof the reprehensible,guilty, horrible,abjectact also anunderstandingof the act?Yes
andno. It is not anunderstandingn the sense of
rationalization. utit does demandapartial, em-
porary dentificationwith the subjectof the act
andwith the act itself. Itimpliesa countertransfer
by theanalyst n order operceivethedeepmoti-
vations,both rationaland rrational, omprehen-
sibleand ncomprehensible, f whichthesubject
of theactis unaware.This affective dentification
matters.Theinterpretationivenis not necessar-
ily a rationalreconstruction f whathappened. t
can simply be ametaphoricdisplacementor an
interjection hatmanifestsanaccompaniment f
the attitudeof the one askingforforgiveness,an
attitude f change.I havealreadygivenexamplesof dream nterpretationsn this sense. One such
interpretationertainso adepressivepatientwho
cannotmanage o speakof thedeepsourceof her
depression: a great aggressiveness toward her
mother.Shetold me aboutatrial,whichhappened
to be that of Klaus Barbie,which she attendedand atwhichI served asjudge. At thesametime,
she said that she was not in the dream,that she
wasn't veryinterested in it. She was elsewhere.
The"elsewhere" hecomes from is Italy,so I tell
her this with respect to the "tortionnaire"tor-
turer]Barbie:"torse-io-naitre/pasaitre" torso-
I-to beborn/not o beborn],"torsionnaitre."2
She received my interpretationas forgive-
ness, as meaning for her suffering. So you see
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282 Forgiveness:An Interview
thatthis interpretations not anunderstandingn
the sense of "rationalizing"her suffering. It is
simply an accompanimentand an indicationof
going beyond. In breakingdown the word"tor-
tionnaire,"I remembereda suffering she had
spoken of, that of having been a small handi-
capped child who couldn't walk and who had
beenplaced n a castfollowinganoperation.Her
torsowas held in an immobilestate that tortured
her, separatingher from her mother'sbody. In
"torse-io-naitre,"he "io"goes back to the pro-
noun "I,"which she is unable to say. This was
anotherform of sufferingsince she was immo-
bilized by this mother who did everything for
her, who dominatedher and, in a certain way,"tortured"erevenif she thoughtshe was doing
good. And the ideaof beingborn("naitre")was,
for her,connectedto hercomplaintof sterility,
of an inabilityto becomepregnant.
So, you see, it is a question of interpreta-
tion, which capturesthe sufferingand opens it
up to somethingelse, to transcending.The word
"understanding"eemsreductivewithrespectto
this type of story, o this narrativehatI propose
in a metaphoricmanner,to this condensed ac-
count containing wordplay but providing one
way of recognizingherpain. I show her in this
way thatI can share t, as I can share thetorture
of which she was the object but that is also a
tortureshe wantedto inflict on hermother.She
was not only passive in the matterbut active,
withoutbeing able to say it. Accompanyingher
in thisaggressiveness,sharing t withher,I open
the way for her to see herpresentdesire,which
was hiddenuntil this moment:herdesireto be-
come a mother.As if by chance, she succeededin becoming pregnantlater. This is why I say
thatinterpretations an experienceof "attribut-
ing meaning," with the understanding that
"meaning"is different from "signification."I
keep the word"signification"or rationalityand
for all that contains univocal meaning, at the
surface of consciousness. And I keep "mean-
ing"for intonations,metaphors,affects, the en-
tire panoplyof the psychic life, with which the
psychoanalystworks butwhich expressesitself
also in works of art; it distinguishes itself by
meaningful"semiotic"signs, and not by a dog-
matic rationalization.
At a conferenceon thesubjectof melancholy, ou
gave a paper in which you said thefollowing:
"Theunforgivableexists in the social arena."I
wonderedwhatyoumeantbythe "unforgivable."
Youalso addressedthe issue at a recentcollo-
quiumat UNESCO,whereyou indicated hatthe
sphereofforgivenessis not the social sphere.3
This is a discussion I carriedout at a distance
andvery succinctly-since I haven'tdeveloped
it as he has-with the workof JacquesDerrida.
Accordingto my understanding,n certainpub-
lished portions of his seminar on forgiveness,
Derridasays that if one engages in this reflec-
tion on forgivenessandits practice,it would be
necessary to forgive the unforgivable; other-
wise, forgiveness has no meaning.4I thinkthat
this radicalposition should be maintained,but
in a sortof enclavein the publicspherethat can
only be the private sphere. This can only be
done in strictprivacy,notably
that of the ana-
lytic cure. One can imagine that the unforgiv-
able can be forgiven in the way I indicated in
my example, not as an erasurebut as a recog-
nitionof the suffering,the crime,andthe possi-
bility of beginning again. This is possible in
psychoanalysis-even in the case of horrible
crimeslike murderandpedophilia-since this is
a placewherepeoplewho havehadsuchexperi-
ences demonstratea possibility for change, al-
beit sometimestemporarilyandfalsely. We can
thereforeaccompanythemin this movementoftransformationndrebirth.
In contrast, thinkthatthe social sphere-I
remainperhaps n this aspectveryArendtian-
is thatof judgment, andI thinkthat a commu-
nity cannotmaintain tself unless it gives itself
laws thatare impossible to transgress;for it is
founded on law and punishment. We can, of
course, varypunishmentsandopen them up to
therapy, accompanying prison sentences with
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Julia Kristeva 283
psychoanalytictherapy.We can thus introduce
the privatesphereI just spoke of, notablypsy-
choanalysis, but the idea that the social spherewould depriveitself of jurisdictionandpunish-
ment from the outset seems to me unbearable,for thatwouldopenthepathto all sortsof racist,
sexist, and various other violations. Derrida's
vision is extremely generous, a little utopian,and it presupposes the existence of extremelyflexible andevolvedindividuals,which is unfor-
tunately not the case. But I think that he also
opens this utopianpossibility thatshouldn'tbe
closed. Canwe pardoncriminals like Barbieor
Pinochetwithout udgmentandpunishment?
According to what I've read and understood,
there is also an optimism.That s to say that or-
giving someone meansseeing what is thereand
placing a bet on the uture,on a renewal.
This is a big problemthat I treatedat the collo-
quium at UNESCO. Someone asked me, "Are
you a pessimistor an optimist?" am not reallya naive optimist. I believe we all know, espe-
cially in psychoanalysisand when you work in
the arts, how much the humanbeing is drivenby destructivenessandviolence. The worst hor-
rors arepossible and are not behind us. But if
one undertakesworkin therapy,one placesa bet
on the forces of good. I amnot at all a believer
or a mystic, not someonewho adheresto a par-ticular value system. I am rather one of those
who possess interrogativeminds. But if I have
to take a side, even if it's only a temporarystance in this interrogation,t would be to wageron good. Let's say that I believe in good and
thatfor me humanity s perfectible.
But isn't it difficult to forgive an act like the
Holocaust or somethingas seriouswithoutpos-
sibly allowing it, in a certain sense, to happen
again? How can one forgive without effacingthegravityof suchan event?
It is not a questionof "forgiving he Holocaust"
in the social sphere.Onceagain,if there s judg-
ment,the criminalmustbe punished.There is a
public discourse, andit must be continuedas a
discourseof condemnation,of settlingaccounts.
We can forgive individually those who ask for
forgiveness. Imaginea personwho enteredtheNazi partyat the age of twenty and who com-
mitted horrible acts in a camp. He turnsforty,
fifty years of age, has traveled a certain path,and asks, conscious of the horrorof his crime,
to speak, to be transformed.I tell him thathis
actswill bejudgedandpunished, hathe will be
askedfor explanations,thathe will be askedto
makereparationsn variousways. ButI also tell
himthathe will be permitted-and this is where
forgiveness will intervene-to transformhim-self, to freehimself fromthis stigma.He will be
allowednot to forgetbutto startover.
And if there is no repentance? If there is no
remorse?
Then there is no forgiveness to offer. Once
again, I may not be Christian enough. Those
who call on an absoluteforgivenesswithoutre-
pentanceare in anoblativite,a generositythat s
fascinatingand very charitable,but they fail totake intoaccount hebond.Oncethere s a bond,thereis a need to safeguarda certainnumberof
prohibitionsand limits, which the act of judg-mentmust reinforce.Again, thejudgmentmust
notbe symmetrical o the crime. I find thatwhat
is still practiced n the United States,wherethe
criminal is punished with means analogous to
the meansof thecrime,is unacceptable.
Which s, in any case, notpossible. Evenif theykill a manwho has murderedwentypeople, it's
neverequivalent.
It's neverequivalent,and it's especially not dis-
suasive,as manyadvocatesof the deathpenaltyclaimit to be. Forthe criminalwho is in sadistic
escalation,the more he is threatenedwith death,the moreexcitedhe is, andthe morehe kills.
Andthat end transformshimintoa hero.
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284 Forgiveness:An Interview
It transforms iminto a hero and stimulateshim.
I have a questionabout individual orgiveness,
or the act offorgiving oneself. In an interview
published under the title "Dostoevsky,a Poetic
of Pardon,"you affirmed he importance of in-
terpretive listening in psychoanalysis and in
writing: "Thesame interpretive isteningis evi-
dentlyimplicit, imaginary, n the act of writing.
It is assumed by the analyst in thepsychoana-
lytic situation.At any rate, this dynamicsets offthe work of elaboration: drawing my strength
from thisforgiveness (giving meaning beyond
nonmeaning), I reweave thefabric of my own
story,I preparemyeventual rebirth"("Dosto-'evski"87). To orgive oneself is it necessaryto
have thepresence of the listeningothereither in
analysis or in writing?Does somethingas inti-
mate andpersonal as individualorgivenessde-
mandthepresenceof an other?
I wanted o show thatthere s ananalogyas well
as differences.Let's speakfirst of the analogies
betweenanalyticlisteningand the aestheticact.
In the two cases, it is a questionof comingback
to the place of a trauma,somethingthatis non-sensicaland seems inexpressible,andsymboliz-
ing it. This symbolization is different in the
analytic experience and the aesthetic experi-
ence. In the analyticexperience,thereis first of
all the presenceof the other,the analyst;even if
he is considereda nonperson,he representsau-
thority,knowledge,the law, the paternalor ma-
ternal nstancethatmust be workedthrough.In
the aestheticexperience,this alterityis not im-
mediately present. If I write a novel and dedi-
cate it to my parentsorpublic opinion,I am not
alone, but I am not in a listening relationship
like thatof the analyticcure either.In the actof
writing, I am solitary. There is nonetheless a
horizon, somethingin the way of the other,the
big Other,butit doesn'thavethepowerto inter-
vene. In the aestheticact, I am confrontedwith
culturalcodes, so I try to compose like Baude-
laire or against Colette orfor Joyce or in con-
trast to Bataille.There s alwaysan intertext hat
is a type of "competitivity"with tradition,with
the present,which leads me to theproductionof
an object that I throw into communication and
into the market.Since this preoccupation s ab-
sent from the analytic act, something very pri-vateand unaffectedpresents tself there.Beyondthese differences,thereis an individual'sappro-
priationof the inexpressible,andof trauma,and
this appropriation econciles with the impossi-ble and with the splitting within oneself. This
reconciliation,which I call "par-don,"5s never
definitive.If it weredefinitive,that would mean
that the analysis had stopped, that I was not
searching for anything more; unfortunately,there are a number of
peoplewho
stopin this
way. But it is in the continuity, n the perpetua-tion of this never-endingwork of naming and
symbolizing,thatforgivenesstakesplace in the
sense of incompletionandinfinity.
Thenthere is no such thingas forgiveness once
and or all?
No, becauseonce andfor all wouldmeansome-
thing that is in line with erasure, not rebirth,
which is indefinite.My conception of forgive-
ness entailsunderstandinghe humanbeing as a
subjectivity n permanent reation;we arenever
finished.Evenif you obtaina doctorateor win a
NobelPrize,you shouldnotstopthere.Whatever
the positive meaningthathas been given you or
that you have producedfor yourself, it should
notbe definitive,butratheranopening.It should
be a milestone in a continual rebirth.This is a
wish, a goal. Nobody gets there;we can't make
it there.But it's good to havethis as a horizon.
I imaginea victimwhomanagesto expressher-
self who is able to speak of her experiencebut
who doesn't makeprogress, who continues to
speak of the same thing without changing the
subject,withoutmovingon. And this scares me
becauseI knowsome victimswho always speak
of theirexperience.
It is not of this continuity of the traumathat I
wanted o speak,butrather f leavingthesceneof
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the crime andcreatingnew connections.Thevic-
timof whomyouspeak s stillin the sametrauma.
Sheturns n circles.
She turns in circles since nothinghas changed.The ideal would be, afterthis burn,this horror,
when she has forgiven the perpetrator,hatshe
could enter into a relation different from the
traumaticone she wentthrough.Thatwould as-
sumethat she has experiencedher own painand
entered theproblematicof the perpetrator im-
self, of the perpetrator'straumatism,his vio-
lence. She no longer views it as a victim since
she has been able to enter into the dynamic of
the one whose victim she is. Once again, if we
place ourselves in the problematicof the Holo-
caust,this is impossibleon a collective level, in
my understanding.
Youhave made several statementsaboutatem-
porality, a theme that can be found in your
analysis of HannahArendtas well as in Black
Sun. In Black Sun,for example,you affirm hat
"pardonis ahistorical. It breaks the concate-
nation of causes and effects, crimes and pun-ishment, it stays the time of actions" (200). If
forgiveness itself eludes temporality, is there
nonetheless a chronology offorgiveness? Is it
ever too late toforgive? Can oneforgive in ad-
vance? Would"forgiveness n advance" be the
"promise"that one finds in your analysis ofHannahArendt'spoliticalphilosophy?
I insist on this phenomenonof the atemporalityof forgiveness because it helps us understand
why forgivenesscannot nscribeitself in the so-cial arena.The social sphere s the sphereof his-
tory; there is a past, a present, and a future. In
thatfield, forgivenessmustsimplyfollow judg-mentandcondemnation.But it cannotbe disso-
ciated from that time which marks historical
linearity.On the other hand, the time of scan-
sion, this momentoutside time that is forgive-ness, does it have its chronology?The answer s
yes. Let's return o the exampleof the patient.I
am able to follow her in her pain once I have
reacheda point of a certainimpregnationwith
her story;I don't understandherrationally,but
emotionally,andthattakes some time. There is
lineartimejust as thereis fragmented ime, but
linear time plays a role also in following the
subject. She must also go througha period of
time, notably that of daily disputes with her
motherandthe complaintof sterility, n order o
go beyond them; time allows a maturation of
the trauma. t is notpossiblefor this forgivenessto takeplace without a certaintime of sufferingandits eclipse following themomentof impreg-nationwith the traumaandthetime of the other.
Can forgiveness happen in advance? Thetime of the promise s different romthe time of
forgiveness.Canthey be connected?The ques-tiondeservesreflection.It seems thatthetime of
the promise is somethingotherthanthat of the
cutting of anteriorties. For ties arerenewable.
Andthispromisetakesintoaccountthe factthat
I can forgive, but it doesn't put forgiveness al-
ready at the origin, before the beginning of
time.Judeo-Christianityas given us the ideaof
historical time. This timepresupposes
a conti-
nuity, a linearity within which we make cuts:
promiseorforgiveness.In contrast,experienceslike Buddhism,for
example, andcertainforms of Taoism suspend
time, andthen the questionof forgiveness isn't
asked, since there is no judgment. Unless we
consider hat orgiveness s alwaysalready here.
Thisprovidesstatesof communionwith nature,
very intense subjective or collective sensory
experiences. The disadvantage of this is that
historical time is suspended. Or else, when itmanifests itself, it is in the form of great con-
flicts. In Chinese history,for example, thereis
history when there are revolutions and mas-
sacres. Maybe we possess, with the idea of
linear time, which is relieved by promise and
forgiveness, the possibility of maintaininglin-
earity and modifying it with cuts and projec-tions, but maybe not in putting forgiveness
alreadyat the origin, which would be a way of
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286 Forgiveness:An Interview
effacing chronology.This is a particulardialec-
tic thatplays itself out between linear time on
the one hand and promise and forgiveness on
the other. These last two relieve linearityfrom
its overly obsessive, performative aspect, pro-videdthey are used with moderationand not re-
moved fromchronology.
Todaywe witnessa proliferationof requests or
forgiveness. Everywhere,in the United States
and evenin countrieswherethis Judeo-Christian
tradition is not dominant, we hear the use ofAbrahamic anguagein a quest or pardon.I am
wondering fforgiveness is in dangerof becom-
ing somethingbanal, ordinary,and completelydevoidof meaning.
Thereis an inflation of the word. That is why I
use the example of the psychoanalytic experi-
ence, where you can verify the authenticityof
the request.It is possible thatpeople come for
an analysis and spend all their time avoiding
analysis. In this case, the interpretationsyou
give cannot be received as interpretations hat
will allow renewal.I thereforeplace myself in a
positionwhere therequestfor forgivenesstesti-fies to a differentmotivation,to an individual's
desirefor transformation.
Love is thusvery importantnpsychoanalysis.
Of course. The steps taken by the person who
seekspsychoanalysisdemonstratehat he or she
has come in an act of love. Thus, the transfor-
mation s underway.
And is love necessaryfor forgiveness? Do thetwogo together?
I believe that forgiveness cannot be granted
unless it is in this relationship.Forme to under-
standmy patient,a certainform of love is nec-
essary. This love is not idealization but an
accompanimentof the loved subject in his or
her traumatismsand states of dereliction. But
this is an accompanimentto bring him or her
out of this situation.Ultimately,what seems to
me to be love is thewageron rebirth. tis possi-ble that this person will be born again. Where
does this optimism come from? When I am in
analysis,I see the effort thepatientmakes to es-
tablish a connection with me, to receive my
word, and then to connect with others. Some-
times, however,there is a will to do nothing.In
thiscase, it is better o renounce he effort.
There s afamous passage in VictorHugo's Les
miserables in whichJean Valjean teals and his
host does notcondemnhim. Thisact of grace,of
forgiveness, of clemency, seems to allow Jean
Valjean o change.
Yes.
He becomes mayor of a city and an honorable
figure. Is this an example of this wager on the
possibilityof beginningagain?
It hasbeen said thatpsychoanalysis s a continu-
ation of confession, that t takesupthereligious
act of believing in the individual. Thereareac-
knowledgeable similarities, provided that we
stipulatehatwe arenot contentwitha
gratuitouswager.Thepsychoanalyststrivesto accompany
the subject in the appropriationof the motiva-
tionsthat ed to the crimeor the trauma. ustas it
has beensaid thatphilosophy s a whitetheology
because it keptthe logic butnot God, I say that
psychoanalysis is a colored Judeo-Christianity
because it has addedimpulses anddesires. Al-
lowing JeanValjean o understandwhy he com-
mittedthis act means allowing him to continue
to deal with his impulses andhis passions, but
not by committing crimes. It is a deeper,more
complexaccompanimenthattakesinto account
therichnessof thepsychicapparatus.
Since sometimesforgiveness eludes reason by
takingintoaccountall these impulses,all these
aspects that don't have significance in them-
selves but that possess a "meaning" that is
larger,can it be said that literature s themeans
par excellence of expressingforgiveness? Be-
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Julia Kristeva 287
cause literature uses metaphor,parable, short
anecdotes,evenpoetry,whichmayelude "signi-
fication" inyoursense of theword?
I made a comparisonbetween the analytic andtheaestheticexperience,butI wouldn'tsay liter-
ature s the meansparexcellence becauseoften,
despiteall the richmeans of polyphonicallyren-
deringthe humanexperience,the literaryexpe-riencesinks intocomplacencyor idealization; t
complacently repeats a traumawithout going
beyond it in the slightest. In this case, there is
no possibilityfor forgivenessorrenewal.
Toconclude, I have a question onwriting
and
translation. n thepart of the chapteron Dosto-
evsky n Black Sunsubtitled"Writing:mmoral
Forgiveness,"you underscore the equivalencebetween writing and forgiveness: "Writingcauses the affect to slip into the effect-actus
purus,as Aquinasmightsay. It conveysaffectsand does not repressthem,it suggestsfor them
a sublimatoryoutcome, it transposes them oran other in a threefold, maginary,andsymbolicbond.Because it isforgiveness,writingis trans-
formation,transposition, ranslation" 217).
Even if the writer'sstoryturns n circles,writingis nonethelessa wayof comingout of thetrauma,of forgivingoneself or the otherandtranslatingit for someone else. This constitutes a distanc-
ing fromtheplaceof the crimethroughsharing.
Inyour "Weeklyournal"published nLiberation
at thebeginningof thiscalendaryear,you made
the ollowing statementaboutyourownwriting:
"Writing:hat'showIforgive myselffor havingabandonedthe dark,golden hues of Byzantineicons, the rockyweightsof mynativeSlavic, all
the while trying to translate into Frenchmany
identityconflicts,this 'Balkanizationofpersonsand nationshencefortheverywhere nprogress,andtolaughat itall inFrench"("Monjournal").Inan articlepublished na collectiontitledLove
of the OtherLanguage, you wrotethe ollowing
aboutwriterswhowritein a languagethatis not
"their own": "Objectof lucid love and none-
thelesspassionate, thenewlanguageis apretext
for rebirth:new identity,new hope" ("L'autre
langue"157). French s notyourmother ongue,andyet it is yourlanguage of writing.Would ou
say thatwriting nFrenchrepresentsnsomewaya "doubleorgiveness"for you?
Yes, that is indeedwhat I triedto say in Libera-
tion. It is a mannerof distancing oneself, be-
cause one always wonders why one goes into
exile. Obviously,thereareeconomic, political,and culturalreasons, but I deeply believe that
one does not choose to change languages if
thereis not a desire to distanceoneself from an
ancienttraumatism, ven if it wasn't too brutal.
There is a way of detaching oneself from the
origin that is a form of matricideand that one
avoids in distancing oneself in another lan-
guage. This does not stop one from comingbackto thisplacefroma largerdistance,evenif,becauseof this new distance,you become a for-
eign element with which the conflicts can then
beginagain.Youwill neverbe sureof a place or
of peacefulness. But this disjunction, this lackof comfort, which are the places of suffering,
eventuallybecomelighter.By frequenting, ban-
daging,"andreflectingon themthroughmusic,
affects, sensations,metaphors, tc., you will not
efface these places of suffering but attenuate
them,allowingthema certain uminosity,a cer-
tain laugh.Writing,speaking,another anguageis a relatively new experience; we have onlybeen doing it for severalcenturies. And it is at
once a greatdifficulty, a sort of tragedy,and a
choice, an opportunity.We do not yet know the
possibilities thatthis can open up. In the begin-
ning, the resultis hybridworksthatdon't have
the magnificenceof the greatworksof the pastby Shakespeareor Homer.But they nonetheless
reflect the wanderings of individualities, the
cleavages and the polyphonies of individuals
thatarethe resultsof numerouscrimesand nu-
merous nstancesof forgiveness.
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288 Forgiveness:An Interview
Alison Rice: Dans un article de Liberationquidate du ler et du 2 janvier 2000, vous avez
donne la definitionsuivantedupardon:donner
du senspar-dela le non-sens (<Monjournal >).
Lepardon consiste-t-il toujoursen une attribu-
tion de sens? Y a-t-il despardons qui reconnais-
sent une absence de sens? Quelest le role de la
comprehensiondans le pardon? Peut-on par-
donnersans comprendre?
JuliaKristeva:Ladefinitionque 'aidonneem'est
tresparticulieret concemeuneappropriationu
sens dumot<<pardon>que 'aifaite apartirde ma
pratiqued'analyste.Pourenrevenira la source, l
fautrappelerque dansla religion - puisquele
terme vient d'un horizon essentiellement reli-
gieux - on entendparpardon a suspensiondu
jugement.L'actepar equelon s'interditdejuger
et on arretee temps, quiest celui delavengeance
pour permettrea celui qui a commis un acte re-
prehensible de reprendreune autre vie et une
autreactivite.C'estunepratique elativement e-
cente,puisqueHannahArendt,quis'est penchee
sur le sujet - de maniere,je crois, assez pro-fonde- a constatequecettepratique st mecon-
nuedesGrecs.1Onen trouveune versionchez les
Romainsquiepargnaient, arexemple,la vie des
otages;mais c'est unepratiquequis'est instituee
dans le mondeoccidentalpar ejudaisme,oiu l y
a l'idee de Kippour,et dansle christianisme.La
questionfondamentale tant,dansces deuxreli-
gions, de savoirqui pardonne.Est-ce Dieu qui
est le seul capabled'arreter e temps,de ne plus
juger, de permettrea quelqu'unle commence-
ment,ou est-ce quece sontles hommes?Hannah
Arendtsembleaccorderbeaucoupd'importance
a la these chretiennedanslaquelleon insiste sur
la responsabilisationdu sujetlui-memequidoit
commencerparpardonner, u parse pardonner,
avanttoute interventionde Dieu. On peutdonc
glosersurla pratique eligieuseet sur sonexten-
sion, maisa partirde monexperience,j'ai voulu
dire deuxchoses. D'abordquele pardon, el que
je l'entends,n'est uneffacementni de l'acteni de
la culpabilite.I1en tientcompte, il entend aussi
bien l'acte dans son horreurque la culpabilite.
Mais, puisqu'il ne s'agit pas d'effacement, il
s'agit d'entendre a demandedu sujet qui s'ex-
prime parla quete du pardonet, une fois cette
demandeentendue,de permettre e renouveau,
la renaissance.
Comment cette renaissancepeut-elle s'ac-
complir?A mon sens, la seule possibiliteest de
donner une interpretationde l'acte. Toute la
question est de savoir si cette interpretationde
1'actereprehensible,coupable,horrible,abject,
etc., sera aussiune comprehension?Oui et non.Elle n'est pas une comprehensionau sens de ra-
tionalisation.Mais elle demandeune identifica-
tionpartielle,provisoireavec le sujetde l'acte et
avec 1'acte lui-meme. Cela implique donc le
contre-transfert,de la part de l'analyste qui
pourra uivre les motivationsde cet actejusqu'a
des profondeursque le sujet lui-meme ignore,
et qui peuvent etre aussi bien des profondeurs
rationnelles qu'irrationnelles,aussi bien com-
prehensibles que non-comprehensibles.Cette
identificationaffective compte.L'interpretation
donnee n'est pas forcementune restitutionra-
tionnellede l'acte. C'est peut-etreun simplede-
placementmetaphorique u une ponctuationqui
manifeste un accompagnementde l'attitudema-
nifestee parcelui qui demandepardon,de son
attentede changement.J'ai deja donne des ex-
emples d'interpretationsde reve en ce sens. A
propos,parexemple, d'une patientedepressive
quin'arrivaitpas a parlerde la sourceprofonde
de sa depressivite,laquelle n'etait autrequ'une
tresgrandeagressivitevis-a-vis de sa mere.Elle
me parlaitd'un proces qui etait celui de Klaus
Barbieet auquelelle assistaitet danslequelj'e-
tais le juge. En meme temps, elle me disait
qu'elle n'etait pas dansce reve, que Cane l'in-
teressait pas beaucoup. Elle etait ailleurs. Or
1'<<illeurs>, dontelle vient,est l'Italie,et je lui
dis, a proposdu mot <<ortionnaire>: <<orse-io-
naitre/pas naitre>>, <orsionnaitre >>.2
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JuliaKristeva 28917.2
Ellearecumon nterpretationommeunpar-
don,c'est-a-direun sensa sa souffrance.Orvous
voyez quecetteinterpretation'estpasunecom-
prehensionau sens derationaliser a souffrance.
C'est simplementun accompagnementet unin-
dice de depassement.Endecomposant e motde
<<ortionnaire ,je mesouvenaisd'unesouffrance
dontelle m'avaitparle celle d'avoireteunepe-
titefillehandicapee,quin'arrivait asa marcher,
etqu'onavaitplatreeala suited'uneoperation.Et
que son torse etait pris dansune immobilite ou
elle etait torturee t separeeducorpsde sa mere.
Dans <<orse-io-naitre>, le <<o >>envoie aupro-
nom <<e qu'elle n'arrivaitpas a dire,qui etait
uneautre ormede souffrance ar elleetait mmo-biliseeparcette merequifaisait outpourelle, qui
la dominait t, d'une certainemaniere,a torturait
meme si elle croyaitbien faire.L'idee de naitre
etait,quantaelle, liee a saplainted'etresterile,de
nepouvoirpasetreenceinte.
Donc, vous voyez, il s'agit d'une interpre-
tationqui saisit la souffrancepourl'ouvrir vers
autrechose, et vers son depassement.Le mot de
<<comprehension >me paraitdonc reducteur is-
a-vis de ce type de mini-recit,de cette narration
queje propose de manieremetaphorique,con-
densee qui passe parle jeu de mot, mais qui est
une maniere de reconnaitresa douleur. Je lui
montre ainsi queje peux la partager,commeje
peux partagerla torturedont elle etait objet,mais qui est aussi une torturequ'elle voulaitin-
fligera sa mere. Elle n'etaitpas seulementpas-
sive dans1'affaire,mais active, sans parvenira
le dire; en l'accompagnantdans cette agressi-
vite, en la partageantavec elle, je lui ouvraisla
voie de ce qui etait pour elle son desir actuel,bloque parson agressivite,son desir de devenir
mere. Commeparhasard,elle a reussia etre en-
ceinte quelque temps apres. C'est pourquoi jedis que l'interpretationest une experience de
<<onationde sens>>n entendant e mot<<ens>>
commeautrechose quela signification.Je gardele mot <<signification>>pour a rationalite t pourtout ce qui est signification univoque, a la sur-
face de la conscience;etje garde e mot <<ens>>
pourles intonations, es metaphores,es affects,
enfin toute cette panoplie de la vie psychique
avec laquellela psychanalyse ravaille,mais qui
s'exprime aussi dans les ceuvresd'art, pardes
marqueset des indices signifiants,semiotiques,
et nonpas parune rationalisation ogmatique.
Dans une journee d'etude sur la melancolie,
vous avez dit la phrase suivante: <<II a de
l'impardonnabledans le champsocial >. Je me
demandais ce que vous entendezpar < mpar-
donnable>. Vousavezparle aussi a I'UNESCO
de la sphere dupardon et vous avez dit que la
spheredupardonn'estpas la spheresociale.3
C'est une discussionquej'entretenaisa distanceet de maniere ressuccincte,parce queje ne l'ai
pas developpeecommeil 1'afait, avec un travail
de JacquesDerrida.D'apresce quej'ai compris,
dans un seminaire sur le pardondont certains
fragmentsont ete publies, Derrida dit en sub-
stanceque, si on s'engagedans une reflexionsur
le pardonet dansune pratiquecorrespondanta
cettereflexion, l faudraitpardonner'impardon-
nable, sansquoi le pardonn'auraitpas de sens.4
Je pense en effet que cette radicalite doit etremaintenue,mais dans un champquiest en quel-
que sorte une enclave dansla sphere publique,
quinepeutetrequela sphereprivee,et nepeutse
fairequedans a stricte ntimite,notamment elle
de la cureanalytique.Onpeuten effet imaginer
que cet impardonnablepeut etre pardonneau
sensquej'ai indiquedansmonexemple,nonpascommeeffacementmaiscomme reconnaissance
de la souffrance,ducrime,et commepossibilitede renaitre. C'est possible en psychanalyse, y
comprisdansle cas de crimeshorribles commel'assassinat ou la pedophilie, car c'est un lieu
ou des personnes qui sont passees parde telles
experiences montrent, meme provisoirement,meme faussement,une possibilite de modifica-
tion.Ellespeuventdonc etreaccompagneesdans
un mouvementde mutation t derenaissance.
Enrevanche, e pense que la spheresociale
-je restepeut-etre n ceci tresarendtienne est
celledujugement, tje pensequ'unecommunaute
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290 Forgiveness:An Interview P L
ne peut se maintenirqu'en se donnantdes lois
qu'il est impossible de transgresser; ar elle est
fonde'e ur a loi et le ch&timent. npeut,biens'ur,
moduleres chatiments t lesrendreperme'ablesa
lathe'rapie,ccompagneraprisonavec desprises
encharge he'rapeutiques.npeutdoncintroduire
cettesph'ere rive6eontjeviensdeparler,notam-
mentla psychanalyse,mais le champsocial qui
se priveraitd'emble6ee lajuridictionet de lapu-
nition me para'itnsoutenableet ouvrela voie 'a
toutes sortesd'effractionsracistes,sexistes, etc.
LavisiondeDerrida st extremement ene'reuse,
un peu utopique, et suppose des individus ex-
tr8mementlexiblesete'volue's,e qui,he'las, 'est
pas le cas. Parailleurs, l ouvrecetteutopiequ'ilne faut surtoutpas fermer.Peut-onpardonner a
des criminels comme Barbieou Pinochet, sans
qu'ily aitunjugementet unepunition?
D 'apre's e quej 'ai lu et entendu, l y a aussi un
optimisme. C'est-ai-direque pardonner quel-
qu un,c 'estvoirce quiest la'etfaire unpari sur
lefuitur,un renouvellement.
C'est un vasteprobl'eme, uej'ai aborde' ussi 'a
l'UNESCO. On m'a demande'?Etes-vouspes-simiste ou optimiste??>e ne suis pas tellement
naifvement ptimiste. Je crois que nous savons
tous, surtouten psychanalyse et quandon tra-
vaille dans le domaine de I'art, combien letre
humain est anime'par la destructivite', a vio-
lence. Les pires horreurssont possibles et ne
sont certespas deffi'erenous. Mais si on fait un
travaild'analyse, on fait un panisur les forces
du bien. Je ne suis pas du tout une mystique
croyantequidonneson aval'aune valeur.Je suis
plut6ot e ceux qui interrogent.Mais si je dois
m9appuyer, ne serait-ceque provisoirement ur
une interrogation,c'est pourmiser sur le bien.
Disons que je crois pluto'tau bien et que pour
moil,l'hommeest perfectible.
Mais n 'est-ilpas difficilede pardonnerun acte
comme la Shoah ou quelque chose de si grave
sans pouvoir permettre,dans un certain sens,
que cela se produise de nouveau? Comment
peut-on pardonneret ne pas effacer la gravite'
d'un tel e'venement?
Il ne s'agit pasde ?<pardonnera Shoahli? ansle
champsocial. Encoreune fois, s'il y a unjuge-ment, le criminel doit 'etre puni. Le discours
publicdoit&tre oursuivicommeun discoursde
condamnation t de demandede comptes.IIme
semblequ'onpeut pardonnerndividuellementt
acelui qui le demande.Imaginezun hommeo
unefemmede vingtans,entr6dansles jeunesses
hitle6riennest qui a commis des horreursdans
un camp.IL rrive aquarante u cinquanteans;il
a faitun cheminet, ayantprisconsciencede son
crime,demande aparler, a e transformer.e lui
dis que ses actes seront uge's,punis, qu'on lui
demanderades comptes, qu'on lui demandera
reparationde ses crimes, sous diversesformes,
mais qu'on'luipermettra ussi, et c'est kIau'in-
tervient e pardon,de se transformer, e se fibe&
rerde ces stigmates. On lui permettranon pas
d'oubliermaisde rede6marrer.
Et s'il n'y a pas ce repentir,s'il n'y a aucun
remords?
Alors il n'y a pas de pardon'adonner.Encoreune fois, je ne suis peut-e&re as assez chre6-
tienne. Ceux qui invoquent un pardonabsolu,
sansrepentir, ont dansune oblativit6,unegen'
rosite'fascinante et tr'escharitable,mais ils ne
tiennentpas compte du lien. D'es ors qu'il y a
lien, il y a lane6cessite'e sauvegarder n certain
nombre d'interdits et de limites que I'acte de
jugement doit consolider. Encore une fois, ce
jugementne doitpase&ree syme'triqueu crime
commis. Cequi
sepratique
encore aux Etats-
Unis, oii le criminel est puni avec les moyens
analoguesauxmoyensde son crime,est quelque
chose d' nacceptable.
Ce qui n 'est en tout cas, pas possible. Mime si
on tue un hommequi a tue6 ingt personnes, ce
n'estjamais e6quivalent.
Ce n'estjamaise'quivalentt ce n'est surtoutpas
dissuasif, comme le pre'tendentes partisansde
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117.2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Juliaristeva 29I
la peine de mort.Pour celui qui est dansl'esca-
lade sadique,pluson le punitde mort,plus il est
excite',plus il tue.
Ft Ca e changeen he'ros nfait.
C,a e changeen he'ros t qale stimuleen effet.
J'avais une questiona'proposdupardonindivi-
duel, c 'est4ai-dire1I'actede pardonner a' soi-
meme. Dans un entretienpublie'sous le titre
<<Dostorevski,unepoe'tique dupardon>>,vous
avez affirme''importancede 1'e'coutenterpre'-
tativeet dans lapsychanalyseet dans 1 ecriture:
((Pareille e&outenterpre'tativest e'videmment
implicite, imaginaire,dans 1 acte de 1 ecriture.
File est assume'e ar 1 analystedans la situation
psychanalytique.Dans tous les cas, cettedyna-
miqueamorcele travaild'daboration:en m'ap-
puyant sur ce pardon (don de sens par-dela'de
V'insense'),e refais le tissu de mon histoire,je
prepare eventuellementma renaissance>>87).
Pourse pardonner, ourpardonnera'soi-me'me,
faut-il 1 ecoute de 1I'autre'travers1 analyseou
1 ecriture Quelquechose d'aussi intimeetper-
sonnel qu'un pardon individuel exige-t-il lapresenced'un autre?
J'ai voulu montrerqu'il y avait une analogie
en meme temps que des diff6rences. Parlons
d'aborddes analogies entrel'edcoute nalytiqueet l'acte esthe'tique:dans les deux cas, il s'agitde revenirsur le lieu d'un trauma,de quelque
chose d'insense', d'indicible, d'impossible 'a
symboliser. Cette symbolisation est diff6rente
dans 1 expe'rienceanalytique et dans 1 expe-
rience esthe'tique.Dans 1'experienceanalytiquela pre'sencede I'autre, de I'analyste est pre-
mi'ere;me^me 'il est conside'recomme non-
personne, il repre'sente 'autorite',e savoir, la
loi, l'instance paternelle ou maternelle qu'il
s'agit dans tous les cas de traverser.Dans 1'es-
the'tique, ette alte'rite''est pas imme'diatement
presente.Si j'edcris n romanet que je le de'die
a mes parents ou 'al'opinion publique, je ne
suis pas seule mais je ne suis pas dans un rap-
port d'e'coutecomme dans la cure. Dans l'acte
de 1'e'criture,e suis solitaire, et cependantil ya un horizon, quelquechose de l'ordrede I'au-
tre, d'un grandAutre,mais qui n'a pas de pou-
voir d'intervention. Dans I'acte esthe'tique, eme confronteaux codes culturels,doncj'essaie
de faire comme Baudelaire,ou contre Colette,
ou pour Joyce, ou contre Bataille: il y a tou-
jours un intertextequi joue comme compe'titi-vite'avec la tradition, avec I'actualite',qui me
conduit'a a productiond'un objetlance'dansla
communication,voire surle marche'.Alors quedans I'acte analytique,cette preoccupationest
absenteet c'est quelquechose de tr'esntime et
non appre' qui se pre'sente.Par-del'a es diff&rences, il y a I'appropriationarun individuou
un sujet de l'indicible et du trauma, et c'est
cette appropriationqui est une redconciliation
avec l'impossibleet avecle clivage en soi. Cette
reconciliation, celle que j'appelle un par-don,5
n est jamais de6finitive.Si elle e'taitdefinitive,
cela voudraitdireque I'analyse s9arre&e,uejene chercheplus rien, et il y a malheureusement
beaucoup de personnes qui s'arre'tentainsi.
Alors que c'est dans la continuite',dans la per-
pe'tuationde ce travail nfini de nomination,de
symbolisation, que s'accomplit le pardon, au
sens d'incomple'tudet d'infini.
(an existepas alors, unpardon unefois pourtoutes?
Non.,parcequ'unefois pourtoutes,cela voudrait
dire un effacement et non pas une renaissance,
laquelle est inde'finie.Dans ma conception du
pardon, il s'agit de comprendre1'e'trehumain
comme une subjectivite'n cre'ation ermanenteet jamais termine's.Me^mei vous obtenez un
doctoratou le PrixNobel, il ne fautpass9arre-er.
Quelquesoit le senspositifquivousa e'tedonne'
ou que vous vous etes donne',l ne fautpasqu'ilsoit dedfinitif., ais qu'il y ait ouverture,que ce
sens positif soit un jalon dans la renaissance
continuelle.C 'est un vceu.,un objectif.Personne
n'y arrive,nousn'y arrivonspas. Maisc'est bon
de I'avoircommehorizon.
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292 Forgiveness:An Interview
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J'imagine une victimequelconque qui arrive a
s'exprimer, qui arrive a parler son experience
mais qui n'avance pas, qui reste a parler de la
meme chose sans changer de theme. Et Came
fait peur,quandmeme,parce queje connais des
victimesquiparlenttoujoursde leurexperience.
Ce n'est pasde cettecontinuitedu traumaqueje
voulaisparler,mais, ustement,dequittera scene
ducrime,de creerd'autres iens. La victimedont
vousparlezest, elle, toujoursdans e trauma.
Elle toure en rond.
Elle toure enrondcarrien ne se deplace.L'ideal
seraitqu'a partirde cette briulure, e cette hor-reur,et quandelle auraitpardonneaubourreau,
elle puisse entrerdans une autrerelation que
celle, traumatique,qu'elle a vecue. Cela sup-
poseraitaussi qu'elle vive sa propredouleuret
qu'elle entredans la problematiquedubourreau
lui-meme,dans e traumatisme ubourreau, ans
sa violence a lui. Cela supposeraitqu'elle ne se
vive pas uniquementcomme une victime mais
qu'ellepuisse entrerdans la dynamiquede celui
dontelle a ete la victime.Encoreunefois, si l'on
se situedansla problematique e la Shoah,c'est
impossiblesur e plancollectif,a mon sens.
Vousavez ditplusieurschoses a propos de l'in-
temporalite, theme qu'on trouve dans votre
analyse de HannahArendtet aussi dans Soleil
noir. Dans Soleil noir, par exemple, vous af-
firmezque <le pardonest anhistorique.IIbrise
'enchainement es effetset des causes,des cha-
timents et des crimes, il suspend le temps des
actes > (210). Si le pardon lui-memeechappeala temporalite,y a-t-il neanmoinsunechronolo-
gie dupardon?Est-iljamais troptardpourpar-
donner? Peut-onpardonner d'avance? Un tel
pardon d'avance>>serait-il la <<promesse
qu'on trouvedans votreanalyse de la philoso-
phiepolitiquechezHannahArendt?
J'insiste surce phenomened'intemporalitedu
pardoncaril nous fait mieuxcomprendrepour-
quoi le pardonne peut s'inscriredans le champ
[PMLA
social. Le champde la societe est le champde
l'histoire, l y a unpasse,unpresentet un avenir.
La, le pardondoit simplement suivre le juge-
ment et la condamnation.Maisil ne peut pasetre
dissocie de ce temps-la,qui marque a linearite
historique.Parcontre, e tempsde la scansiondu
hors-temps qui est celui du pardon, a-t-il sa
chronologie? La reponse est oui. Revenons a
l'exemplede cettepatiente: e suis capablede la
suivredans sa douleura partird'unecertaine m-
pregnationparsonhistoire, e la comprends ans
rationalitemais avec des affects, et qaprenddu
temps. I1y a un temps lineairecomme il y a un
temps eclate, mais le premierjoue egalement
dansle suivi du sujet.Lapatienteaussi doit tra-verser e temps,notamment,des disputes quoti-
diennesavec samere,de saplainteconcernant a
sterilite, pourles depasser,et pour que se pro-
duise unematuration u trauma. 1n'estpaspos-
sible de donnerce pardonsansun certain emps
de la souffranceet de son eclipse, a partird'une
impregnation ar e trauma t le tempsde l'autre.
Peut-onpardonner l'avance?Le tempsde
la promesse est autreque le temps du pardon.
Peut-onles relier?La questionmerited'etre
po-see. I1me semble que le temps de la promesse
est autreque celui de la coupureavec les liens
anterieurs.Car les liens sont renouvelables.Et
cette promessetientcompte du fait que je peux
pardonner,mais elle ne place pas le pardona
l'origine, c'est-a-dire avantque le temps n'ait
commence. C'est le judeo-christianisme qui a
apport6e tempshistoriquea l'esprithumain.Ce
temps suppose une continuite, une lin6arite a
l'interieurde laquelle nous faisons des coupes,
qui sontla promesseou le pardon.
En revanche, les experiences comme le
bouddhisme,parexemple, et certaines formes
de taoisme, suspendent le temps, et donc la
questiondupardonne se pose pas, puisqu'iln'y
a pas dejugement.A moins qu'onne considere
que le pardonest toujoursdejala. Ce qui donne
des etats de communionavec la nature,de sen-
sorialite subjective ou collective tres intense.
L'inconvenientde tout cela, c'est que le temps
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117.2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Juliaristeva 293
historiqueest suspendu.Ou, quandil se mani-
feste, c'est sous la forme des grandsconflits.
Ainsi dans L'histoirehinoise, il y a de l'histoire
quandil y a des re'volutions,des massacres.Et
peut-etreavons-nous,avec l'ide'ed'un tempsli-
neairesoulage'eparla promesseet le pardon, a
possibiLit6 e maintenir a line'arite't de la mo-
difier, de la moduler avec des coupureset des
avancees,maisnon pasen mettant a 'originele
pardon de'j"a,e qui serait au contraireune ma-
ni'ered'effacer la chronologie.C'est une dialec-
tique particuli'erequi se joue entre le temps
line'aired'une partet la promesse et le pardon
d'autrepart.Ceux-ci soulagent 'aspect tropob-
sessionnel,trop performant,de la line'arite', aisaicondition de les utiliser avecmode'ration,ans
les extrairede la chronologie.
Nous assistons aujourd'huia'uneproliferation
de demandesdepardon.Partout,. n trouveaux
Etats-Unis, ou memedans les pays oii il n'y a
pas cette tradition udJo-chre'tienne,un emploi
du langage abrahamiquepour demanderpar-
don. Etje me demande si le pardon risque de
devenir quelque chose de banal, ordinaire et
comple'tementide de sens.
ILy a en effet une inflation du mot. C'est pour
cette raisonque je prends1'exemplede l1expe'ri-
ence analytique,oiu 'on peut ve'rifier 'authen-
ticite'de la demande.ILarrivequ'une personne
vienne en analyse et emploie tout son temps a
eviterI'analyse.Dans ce cas, les interpre'tations
que vous lui donnezne peuvent pas "etreequescomme des interpre'tationsui lui permettentde
se renouveler. Je ne me situe donc pas dans
l'optique commune du pardon,mais dans uneoptique oii la demande de pardon te'moigned'une autremotivation, et d'un de'sirde trans-
formationde la personne.
L'amour era t-il doncimportant ans1analyse?
Bien sflr,et la dedmarchee celui ou celle quivient 'aI'analyse et qui demandeest venu dans
acte d'amourde6j"aour son analyse, comportecette dimension puisqu'elle s'inscrit dans un
projet ou vise le rapport aune autrepersonne.
La transformation st donc en cours.
Et est-ce qu 'ilfaut de 1 amourpour le pardon?
Les deux vont-ils ensemble?
Je crois que le pardonne peut 'etredonne'que
dans cette relationque je de6cris. ourcompren-
dre ma patiente,ou mon patient,il faut en effet
une certaine forme d'amour, qui n'est pas de
l'ide6alisation,mais un accompagnementde ce
sujet, aime'jusqu'adans ses traumatismes t ses
etatsde de'reliction.Mais c'est un accompagne-
mentpourle ou la sortirde hIa. e qui m'appa-
raiten somme commeamour,c'est le parisurla
renaissance. L st possible quetelle ou telle per-
sonne renaisse. D'oii me vient cet optimisme?
De ce que j'entends en analyse, de 1'effortfait,
par le patient pour e'tablirun lien, avec moi,
d'abord, pour recevoir ma parole, et avec
d'autres.ILarrivem'emequ'il y ait un lien pour
ne rienfaire,et dans ce cas, mieuxvautrenoncer.
IIy a ce passage par exempledans Les mise'ra-
bles de VictorHugo oii Jean Valjeanvole et le
prtrene le condamnepas. Cet acte degrCede pardon, de clemence, semble permettre a'
Jean Valjeande changer.
Oui.
Ii devientmaired'une ville et un'eigure hono-
rable. Est-cequec 'estVa,unexemplede cepani
sur la possibilit,6de recommencer?
On apudirequelapsychanalyseest une sortede
continuationde la confession, qu'elle reprend
I'actereligieux de croyanceen l'individu. ILy a
peut-e&ren effet des similitudes,'a onditionde
preciserqu'il ne s'agitpasde se contenterd'une
mise gratuite,que le psychanalysteessaie d'ac-
compagnere sujetdansI'appropriationesmoti-
vations qui l'ont conduit 'ason crime ou 'ason
trauma. De m'emequ'on a pu dire aussi que la
philosophie est une the'ologie blanche, parce
qu'on a garde'a logique, mais pas Dieu, je dis
que la psychanalyseest unjudedo-christianisme
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294 Forgiveness:An Interview[ML
colore'parcequ'9on y a ajoute6es pulsions et les
de'sirs.Permettre aJeanValjeande comprendre
pourquoi l a commis cet acte c'est luipermettre
aussi de continuera aireavec ses pulsionset ses
passions,mais autrechose quedes crimes. C est
un accompagnementplus profond, plus com-
plexe, tenantcomptede la richesse deI'appareil
psychique.
Est-ce qu'onpeut dire,par exemple,parce que
parfois le pardon&happea' a raison,en tenant
compte de toutes ces pulsions, de toutes ces
choses quin'ontpas de significationen tantque
telle maisqui ont un sens qui estplus large,est-
ce qu'on peut dire quela
litte6raturest le
moyen par excellence pour exprimer cela?
Parce que la litte'rature tilise la me'taphore,a
parabole, les petites anecdotes,la poe'siememe,
qui e&happenteute'tre 'unesignification?
C'est pourquoie faisaistout'al'heureunecom-
paraison entre les deux expe'riences,mais ce
n'est pas, comme vous dites, le moyen parex-
cellence.,caril arrivetr'es ouvent, malgre'ous
les moyens de saisie polyphoniquede 1'expe'ri-
ence humaine,que 1'expe'rienceitte'raire 9en-
lise dansla complaisanceou dansl'ide'alisation,
et re6peteomplaisamment n trauma ans le de'-
placerle momns u monde.Dans ce cas, il n'y a
ni possibilit6du pardon,ni de renouvellement.
Pour conclure, j'ai une question qui porte sur
1 ecriture et la traduction. Dans la partie du
chapitre sur Dostorevski dans Soleil noir qui
porte le sous-titre <<L'e&riture: ardon immo-
ral >>,vous soulignez 1 equivalence entre e&ri-
tureet pardon: (<<Lcriture ait passer 1' ffectdans 1'effet: <'<-actusurus >>,dirait saint Tho-
mas. Elle veThiculees affects et ne les refoule
pas, elle enproposeune issue sublimatoire,elle
les transpose pour un autre en un lien tiers,
imaginaireet symbolique.Parce qu'elle est un
pardon,1 ecritureest transformation,ransposi-
tion, traduction >226).
C 'est-it-dire ueme&mei l'histoireque1'edcrivain
racontetourneen rond,c'est tout de me^mene
manierede sortirdutrauma,de pardonnera oi-
meme oua i'autre, de traduireelapourquelqu'un
d'autre; t cela constituede6jane'loignement u
lieu de toutcrime,enamorqantnpartage.
Dans votre<<ournalde la semaine>>ublie'dans
Libe'rationu dckbute cetteanne'e, ousavezfait
le commentaireuivanta'proposde votrepropre
ecriture:<< crire:c'est ainsique e mepardonne
d'avoir abandonne'les sombres dorures des
icoanes yzantines, es lourdeursrocailleusesde
mon slavonnatal,touten essayantde traduire n
franCaismaintsconfilits,orce6mentdentitaires,
cette << alkanisation>> espersonnes et des na-
tionsdi6sormais artouten cours,et d'en rireenfranCais>><<Mon oumnal >).Dans unarticlepu-
blie'dans un recueil intitule6L'amourde I'autre
langue,vouse6crivezaphrase suivantea'propos
de 1 ecrivainquiecrit dans une languequi n'est
pas <la sienne >>:<<Objetd'amour lucide et
neanmoinspassionnel, la nouvellelangueluiest
prtexte i renaissance:nouvelleidentitg,nouvel
espoir >>(<<L'autre langue >>157). La langue
franVaisen 'estpas votre langue maternelle, et
pourtant,c'est votre angued'e&riture.'e&riture
enfranCais erait-elleen quelquesorteun<<'dou-blepardon>>?
Oui,c'est ce que j'essaiede dire eneffet dansLi-
be'ration.C'estune mani&eee s'e'loigner,parce
qu'on se demandetoujourspourquoion s'exile.
Evidemment,on peutrecenserdes raisonse6co-
nomiques,politiques,culturellesmais,profonde&
ment, je pense qu'on ne choisit pas de changer
de langue s'il n'y a pas un de'sirde s'e'loigner
d'un traumatismeancien, me^me'il n'est pas
tropbrutal. ly a unemani"eree se de'prendreel'origine qui relkvedu matricideet qu'on e'vite
en s'e'loignantdans une autre langue. Ce qui
n'empe'chepas de revenir sur ce lieu aipartir
d'une distance plus grande, m'emesi, du fait
meme de cette distance, vous devenez un e'le&
ment allog"ene, vec lequel les conflits peuvent
donc recommencer. Vous ne pourrez jamais
e^treiir d'un lieu, d'une tranquillite'.Mais ce
dedcalage, et inconfort, qui sont des lieux de
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117.2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Juliaristeva 295
souffrance, inissentpars'alle'ger.A force de les
fre'quenter,e les redfledchir,e les panser avecun
?<a?>),a raversdes musiques, des affects, des
sensations,des metaphores,etc., vous parvenez
nos' les effacer,mais'a es soulever, t les al-
le'ger.Vous leurpermettezune certaine umino-
site',un certain rire. Ecrire etparlerdans une
autre langue est une experience relativement
neuve, nous ne le faisons que depuis quelques
si'ecles.Et c'est 'a a fois une grandedifficulte',
une sortede trage'die,t unee'lection, nechance.
On ne mesurepasencore espossibilite's uecela
peut ouvrir.Dans unpremiertemps, le re'sultat,
ce sont des ceuvreshybrides qui n'ont pas la
magnificencedes
grandesceuvres du
passe',comme celles d'un Shakespeareou d'un Ho-
mere,maiselles refl'etent e'anmoinses errances
des individualite's, t les clivages, les polypho-
nies des individusqui sont les re'sultatsde plu-
sieurscrimeset deplusieurspardons.
NOTES
Kristevadedicated a recent book to Arendt (HannahArendt).Arendt'swritingon this mattercanbe found in The
HumanCondition236-43.
2 See Kristeva, Soleil noir 67-69, trans. in Black Sun
53-58.
3The conference on "la m6lancholie"was held at Uni-
versit6de Paris VII on 25 Feb. 2000 andthe UNESCOcol-
loquiumon 18 Apr.2000.
IIn an interview Derrida maintains that "forgiveness
forgives only the unforgivable. ... I f there is any forgive-
ness, it is only where there is the unforgivable" "le pardon
pardonne eulementl'impardonnable.On ne peut ou ne de-
vraitpardonner,l n'y a depardon,s'il y en a, que IAoii il y
a de l'impardonnable";1;my trans.).
5Separated by a hyphen,the two halvesof pardonrecall
Kristeva'sdefinitionof forgiveness:"togive meaningbeyond
nonmeaning" "donnerdu sens par-delAe non-sens" [par-
delti means "beyond"and don "gift"]).Kristeva hus draws
heruniqueunderstanding f pardonfrom the word tself.
WORKSITED
Arendt,Hannah.TheHumanCondition.Chicago:U of Chi-
cago P, 1958.
Derrida,Jacques. "Le si6cle et le pardon."Interview withMichel Wieviorka. Le monde des d,6bats Dec. 1999:
10-17.
Kristeva, Julia. "L'autre langue, ou traduire e sensible."
L'amourde 1autre angue.Ed. ElianeFonmentelli.Spec.
issue of Textuel32 (1997): 157-70.
Black Sun: Depression and Melancholia. Trans.
Leon S. Roudiez.New York:ColumbiaUP, 1989.
'Dostoievski, une po6tiquedu pardon."Interview
with OlivierAbel. Lepardon: Briser la dette et l'oubli.
Ed. Abel. Paris:Autrement,1991. 83-96.
.Hannah Arendt.Paris:Fayard, 1999. Vol. 1 of Le
g,6nie i6minin.Trans. as Hannah Arendt. Trans. RossGuberman.New York:ColumbiaUP,2001.
. Monjournalde la semaine:Diversit6dans la tem-
p8te."Lib,6ration1-2 Jan. 2000. 19 Dec. 2001 <http://
www.Iiberation.com/quotid en/debats/janvierOO/20000101.htmf>.
.Soleil noir:D,6pression t m6lancolie.Paris:Galli-
mard,1987.
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