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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN ANDFOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDACASE NO: 09-062943 07
RAZORBACK FUNDING, LLC, et al,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al,
Defendants.________________________________/
DAY 6 - P.M. SESSION
DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN
DATE TAKEN: Thursday, December 19, 2011TIME: 12:45 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.PLACE: James Lawrence King Federal
Justice Building99 Northeast Fourth StreetMiami, Florida 33124
Examination of the witness taken before:
Terri WrightUnited Reporting, Inc.
1218 Southeast Third AvenueFort Lauderdale, Florida 33316
(954)525-2221
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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND
2 FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO: 10-2411 CACE (19)
4 EDWARD J. MORSE, CAROL A. MORSE,and MORSE OPERATIONS, INC.,
5Plaintiffs,
6vs.
7SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al,
8Defendants.
9 ________________________________/
10AMY ADAMS, ET AL, PLAINTIFF VS. SCOTT ROTHSTEIN, ET AL.
11 CASE NO: 11-CV-61688-JIC/LSS
12Case No: 10-03767 RBR STETTIN VS. GIBRALTAR PRIVATE
13 BANK & TRUST CO.
14Case No: 10-03802-RBR STETTIN VS. CENTURION STRUCTURED
15 GROWTH LLC, ET AL.
16Case No: 11-02288-RBR STETTIN VS. FIDELITY CHARITABLE
17 GIFT FUND
18Case No: 11-02368-RBR STETTIN VS. TD BANK, N.A.
19
20 Case No: 11-02473-RBR STETTIN VS. REGENT CAPITALPARTNERS, LLC ET AL
21Case No: 11-02604-RBR STETTIN VS. MAPLE LEAF DRILLING
22 PARTNERS, ET AL
23 Case No: 11-02605-RBR STETTIN VS. DON KING PRODUCTIONS
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES FOR SCOTT ROTHSTEIN:
2 LAW OFFICE OF MARC S. NURIK1 East Broward Boulevard
3 Suite 700Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
4 BY: MARC S. NURIK, ESQUIRE
5 APPEARANCES FOR THE CHAPTER 11 TRUSTEE,HERBERT STETTIN:
6 BERGER SINGERMAN
7 350 East Las Olas BoulevardSuite 1000
8 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301BY: CHARLES H. LICHTMAN,, ESQUIRE
9APPEARANCES FOR THE TRUSTEE:
10GENOVESE, JOBLOVE & BATTISTA, P.A.
11 100 S.E. 2nd StreetSuite 4400
12 Miami, Florida 33131By: JOHN. H. GENOVESE, ESQUIRE
13 DAVID C. CIMO, ESQUIRETHERESA M.B. VAN VLIET, ESQUIRE
14 JESUS SUAREZ, ESQUIREROBERT F. ELGIDELY, ESQUIRE
15APPEARANCES FOR RAZORBACK:
16 CONRAD & SCHERER, LLP
17 633 South Federal HighwayEighth Floor
18 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33302By: WILLIAM R. SCHERER, ESQUIRE
19 ERIC RAYMAN, ESQUIREIVAN J. KOPAS, ESQUIRE
20 andKOZYAK, TROPIN & THROCKMORTON, P.A.
21 2525 Ponce de Leon BoulevardNinth Floor
22 Coral Gables, Florida 33134By: HARLEY S. TROPIN, ESQUIRE
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES FOR PLATINUM PARTNERS VALUE ARBITRAGECENTURION STRUCTURED GROWTH, LLC:
2GOLDSTEIN, TANEN & TRENCH, P.A.
3 One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3700Two South Biscayne Boulevard
4 Miami, Florida 33131By: SUSAN E. TRENCH, ESQUIRE
5 andHARVEY WERBLOWSKY, ESQUIRE
6APPEARANCES FOR LEVINSON'S JEWELERS:
7 KOPELOWITZ OSTROW FERGUSON WEISELBERG KEECHL
8 200 SW 1st AveSuite 1200
9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 333012073BY: JAN ATLAS, ESQUIRE
10 APPEARANCES FOR THE COMMITTEE OF
11 UNSECURED CREDITORS:
12 AKERMAN, SENTERFITTOne Southeast Third Avenue
13 25th FloorMiami, Florida 33131-1704
14 By: MICHAEL GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE
15 APPEARANCES FOR T.D. BANK:
16 GREENBERG TRAURIG, P.A.401 E Las Olas Blvd Ste 2000
17 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301By: HOLLY SKOLNICK, ESQUIRE
18 DONNA EVANS, ESQUIREMARK P. SCHNAPP, ESQUIE
19APPEARANCES FOR RLI ZURICH INSURANCE COMPANY,
20 COLUMBIA INC. & ZURICH INSURANCE:
21 CLAUSIN MILLEROne Chase Manhattan Plaza
22 39th FloorNew York, New York 10005
23 BY: SCOTT L. SCHMOOKLER, ESQUIRE
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES FOR FEDERAL INSURANCE COMPANY:
2 1430 South Dixie HighwaySuite 204
3 Coral Gables, Florida 331463127By: ALEX HOFRICHTER, ESQUIRE
4APPEARANCES FOR MORSE:
5TRIPP SCOTT, P.A.
6 110 S.E. Sixth Street,15th FloorFort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
7 By: JOHN M. MULLIN, ESQUIREGEORGE WALKER, ESQUIRE
8 APPEARANCES FOR CAROL MORSE, TED MORSE & MORSE
9 OPERATIONS:
10 LAW OFFICES OF ROBERTA DEUTSCH2499 Glades Road
11 Suite 110Boca Raton, Floridan 33431
12 By: ROBERTA M. DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE
13 APPEARANCES FOR EMESS CAPITAL, LLC:
14 KLUGER KAPLAN SILVERMAN, KATZEN & LEVINE, PL201 S Biscayne Blvd Fl 17
15 Miami, Florida 331314BY: CASEY H. CUSICK, ESQUIRE
16APPEARANCES FOR ST. PAUL FIRE & MARINE:
17MILLS PASKERT DIVERS P.A.
18 100 N Tampa St Ste 2010Tampa, Florida 336025145
19 BY: JOHN A. BLACK, JR., ESQUIRE
20 APPEARANCES FOR ROSANNE CARETSKY:
21 BILLING COCHRAN LYLES515 E Las Olas Blvd
22 Floor SixFort Lauderdale, Florida 333012296
23 By: TUCKER CRAIG, ESQUIREDANIEL S. GELBER, ESQUIRE
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES FOR FEPICT, MS GROUP:
2 NYSTROM, BECKMAN & PARISOne Marina Park Dr., 15th Flr.
3 Boston, MA 02210By: JACK SEIGAL, ESQUIRE
4APPEARANCES FOR MICHAEL SZANFRANKSI:
5LYDECKER, DIAZ
6 1221 Brickell AvenueFloor 19
7 Miami, Florida 33131BY: CHRISTOPHER G. BERGA, ESQUIRE
8 MIGUEL J. CHAMORRO, ESQUIRE
9 APPEARANCES FOR GIBRALTAR:
10 STEARNS WEAVER MILLER, et al.150 W Flagler St Ste 2200
11 Miami, Florida 331301545BY: MARY BARZEE-FLORES, ESQ.
12 MATTHEW DATES, ESQUIRE
13 APPEARANCES FOR FRANK PREVE:
14 PODHURST ORSEK25 W Flagler St Ste 800
15 Miami, Florida 331301720BY: RAMON A. RASCO, ESQUIRE
16APPEARANCES FOR LEVINSON PEARSON & ASSOCIATES,
17 WATCH U-WANT, INC.:
18 KOPELOWITZ OSTROW200 SW 1st Ave Ste 1200
19 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301By: BART A. HOUSTON, ESQUIRE
20APPEARANCES FOR THE US GOVERNMENT:
21 99 N.E. 4th Street
22 Miami, Florida 33132BY: LAWRENCE LAVECCHIO, ESQUIRE
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES FOR FRANK SPINOSA:
2 SCHLESINGER AND COTZEN, P.L.799 Brickell Plz Ste 700
3 Miami, Florida 33131BY: MICHAEL J. SCHLESINGER, ESQUIRE and
4 MICHAEL COTZEN, ESQUIREand
5 SAMUEL J. RABIN, ESQUIRE799 Brickell Plaza
6 Suite 606Miami, Florida 33131
7
8
9
10
11
12 EXAMINATION INDEX
13 PAGE
14 SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN
15 DIRECT BY MR. RASCO 1545DIRECT BY MR. CRAIG 1605
16 FURTHER DIRECT BY MR. GELBER 1681
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 EXHIBIT INDEX
2 PAGE
PREVE'S
3
206 Binder of e-mails. 1548
4207 E-mail dated 7/27/07. 1606
5
6
CARETSKY'S
7
208 Portion of the Third Amended Complaint. 1611
8
209 Ira Sochet Answers & Objection. 1616
9
210 ROTHSTEINS 001132-11315, Four Still Shots 1624
10 from TD Bank.
11 211 TD/Razor 001855-1860, E-mail dated 1631
10/29/08.
12
212 TD/Razor 001841-1851, E-mail dated 1635
13 12/17/08.
14 213 E-mail dated 8/17/2009. 1650
15 214 E-mail dated 9/15/2009. 1662
16 215 E-mail dated 9/17/2009. 1665
17 216 Trustee/Spinosa 000422-423, E-mail dated 1666
9/17/09.
18217 E-mail dated 9/17/2009. 1668
19218 PRODA 018604, Letter dated 10/29/2008. 1683
20219 TD/Razor 001863, Letter dated 12/10/2008. 1686
21220 12/17 Investor Meeting. 1690
22221 Page 30 of Scott Rothsteins's deposition 1703
23 taken 12/13/2011.
24 222 Page 1181 and 1182 of Scott Rothstein's 1703
deposition taken 12/16/2011.
25
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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. RASCO:
3 Q Back on the record. I'm going to mark as
4 Composite Exhibit 206 the whole binder that I've handed
5 to you, including all the e-mails you signed.
6 A Do you want to put a label on it just to make
7 sure?
8 Q I think we already did it on one of them or we
9 can label that one.
10 A Whatever your preference.
11 (Whereupon, Preve's Exhibit No. 206 was marked
12 for identification.)
13 BY MR. RASCO:
14 Q So, the last e-mail that we were discussing was
15 in Tab One?
16 A Yes.
17 Q The "sit tight" e-mail from October 31, 2009.
18 And my question is brief, it's just the second paragraph
19 of Frank's e-mail to you, the last one from the top
20 says: I will call in 10 minutes.
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Do you recall if Frank Preve did indeed call
23 you 10 minutes after that e-mail?
24 A My recollection is is that he may have, but my
25 recollection is also that I never had a conversation
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1 with him.
2 Q You don't recall having a conversation with
3 either him or George Levin while you were in Morocco?
4 A I don't have any specific recollection of
5 talking to them.
6 Q No phone calls while you were there, just
7 e-mails and text messages?
8 A Just e-mails and text messages.
9 Q If you go back to the beginning of Tab One, the
10 second e-mail there is titled "me and you"?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And it's the October 30, 2009 e-mail. It
13 states: I am at the lowest point in my life, caused
14 only by me. Just know as F'd up as I am and as F'd up
15 as it seems, I love you. You have been a true brother
16 to me and I let you down. I can never be sorry enough.
17 All my love, forever, Scott.
18 Do you recall this e-mail?
19 A I do.
20 Q Were you being sincere when you wrote that
21 e-mail?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So, what are you sorry for?
24 A I let the entire Ponzi scheme blow up.
25 Q And what do you mean by him being a true
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1 brother to you?
2 A He was -- I mean, if you look at all the e-mail
3 traffic you can tell that other than Debra he was
4 probably the person closest to me in the entire Ponzi
5 scheme. I mean, it was very little that stood between
6 us, at least that's what I was led to believe during the
7 course of our relationship. I thought we had developed
8 a real relationship.
9 Q Did you have any cause to doubt this at any
10 time in your relationship with Frank Preve?
11 A No, not during the course of it. You know,
12 afterwards, hindsight is always 20/20 when you are privy
13 to e-mails afterwards between other people. It's a
14 simple thing as thinking someone is on board with
15 something like the Ari Glass thing, not knowing where
16 his head was and then learning afterwards by reading
17 e-mails and hearing things that he was actually trying
18 to play me.
19 The truth is, you never really know who's
20 involved in fraud and at what level until you get to
21 look at everything.
22 Q Are you suggesting that Frank Preve was trying
23 to play you?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.
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1 A No. I mean to some extent. Listen, on the
2 business level, even an illegal business level of what
3 we were doing we were all playing each other. That's
4 what happens in a fraud, I mean, especially a fraud of
5 this magnitude. Szafranski is the perfect example.
6 When I read his e-mails after I got done, after
7 I came back and I was in the middle of cooperating and
8 read e-mails, he's adding things to this Ponzi scheme
9 that I didn't tell him to add. He just decided, I
10 suspect, that they were good sales techniques for him.
11 He's lying about being the only person selected by the
12 bar to review these files and talking about his ability
13 to look at things. He's just kind of running with it
14 and doing whatever it takes to bring in investors.
15 And so you see those kind of things. So
16 everyone is really playing everybody.
17 Q During the course of the Ponzi, do you know if
18 Frank Preve ever lied to you?
19 A I'm pretty sure he did. I mean, I don't have
20 the specific lies he told me. If you pull out all the
21 e-mails and we compare them to what was going on behind
22 the scenes, again, hindsight is 20/20. Now I'm seeing
23 where he sent an e-mail to me and then forwarded it
24 surreptitiously to somebody else with a comment on it
25 contrary to what he told me.
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1 Yes, that happened from time to time. But,
2 again, in a fraud of this magnitude, I mean, you have to
3 understand that when you're dealing with people who are
4 lying at the get-go people also tend, fortunately or
5 unfortunately depending on how you look at it, to lie to
6 each other. It's just what happens.
7 Q As you sit here today do you recall a specific
8 instance where Frank Preve lied to you?
9 A Let me think about it for a second. You're
10 asking me to rehash years and thousands and thousands of
11 e-mails and a specific sentence.
12 Q I understand. I don't have a specific e-mail
13 about it, just asking your recollection.
14 A If I run across one I'll let you know.
15 Q Turning a little further down Tab One to a
16 November 1, 2009 e-mail from Frank Preve to Frank
17 Spinosa. It has some account numbers in it.
18 A Yes.
19 Q The subject is R.A.A. trust accounts. It
20 states: Frank, I'm a little concerned about Scott's
21 well-being at the moment and how that might impact the
22 integrity of the trust accounts whose proceeds have been
23 assigned to Banyon. Just for the sake of good
24 housekeeping, I think you ought to flag any unusual
25 activity in the following accounts. He lists them and I
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1 will have our legal counsel contact you shortly.
2 You never saw this e-mail, I take it?
3 A Only after the Ponzi scheme exploded.
4 Q And the statement that he makes about the
5 integrity of the trust accounts, do you disagree with
6 this statement about him being concerned about the
7 integrity of the trust accounts?
8 A I wasn't privy to this e-mail. I don't know
9 what he was honestly concerned about. I think he's
10 writing an e-mail to Spinosa to stop me from taking any
11 more money out of the accounts. Other than that, I
12 would just be guessing.
13 Q Okay. Moving a little further down there we
14 talked about the "sit tight" e-mail that had Exhibit A
15 on the front of it?
16 A Right.
17 Q The following one has Exhibit B.
18 A Sure.
19 Q And there's an e-mail right after, you know,
20 lower down on that first page, there's the one you said
21 you explained to him that's not the shortage. Right
22 above that Frank responds to you - it's a November 1,
23 2008 e-mail: As you know - and the subject is "sit
24 tight:" As you know we met with Mark last night but
25 simply because of his lack of knowledge he wasn't very
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1 helpful. In your opinion, do the investors have much of
2 a case against TD Bank given lock letters, balance
3 reports, et cetera. Just trying to give direction to
4 everyone this morning. Hope to see you soon.
5 I know you've already testified to a certain
6 extent about this e-mail, but my first question is: Was
7 Frank the first person that you're aware of that
8 suggested the possibility of a case against TD Bank?
9 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
10 Q Did you have additional follow-up
11 correspondence and e-mails and text messages regarding
12 the possibility of a case against TD Bank?
13 A I don't have any specific recollection, other
14 than if you have some e-mails that would refresh my
15 recollection, but I don't recall writing to him very
16 much more. Certainly I didn't write to him, I don't
17 believe, after I returned on the 2nd or the 3rd.
18 Q Right. So, on November 1st, the one -- you did
19 respond though, right above it stating: Yes, they do
20 have a case. I will explain how when I get back. Can
21 we meet Tuesday afternoon around three? That meeting
22 never occurred, right?
23 A No, sir, it never occurred.
24 Q And did you ever explain to him at a later date
25 after that e-mail was sent, what case he had against TD
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1 Bank?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Do you recall sending a text message while you
4 were in Morocco to both George and Frank indicating that
5 you had just completed a list of info that they need to
6 go after TD Bank?
7 A It's very possible that I did. If you have a
8 copy of it, it would help.
9 Q Just assuming that that's what it said, that
10 I've completed a list of what's needed to go after TD
11 Bank . Does that sound familiar to you?
12 A I can't -- I may have, I may not have. You're
13 asking me to assume something, without seeing it I can't
14 tell you for certain. I need to see it.
15 Q Okay. You don't independently recall?
16 A I don't have an independent recollection, no.
17 Q But it's not a possibility you rule out?
18 A I don't rule it out.
19 Q The next e-mail after that Exhibit B is the
20 November 3rd, exchange between George Levin and Howard
21 Gruverman. The 10:33 p.m. e-mail from George indicates
22 that you had confirmed that he had an accomplice at TD
23 Bank.
24 Do you recall in what manner you would have
25 informed George of that?
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1 A The only thing that I recall writing to George
2 and Frank about at as I sit here today is that e-mail we
3 just looked at. If I sent a text message detailing any
4 more of it, I would need to see the text message to tell
5 you.
6 Q You don't recall a specific conversation or
7 anything like that where you may have indicated to
8 George or Frank that you had an accomplice at TD Bank?
9 A There wasn't one. I don't recall speaking to
10 them. As a matter of fact, I recall just the opposite.
11 I remember them being on the list of people that I just
12 did not want to speak to. When I say list, mental list.
13 Q Why were they on that list?
14 A I don't really know, but in my head I didn't
15 want to speak to them. I just didn't. I was in a
16 terrible frame of mind and I did not.
17 Q Do you recall the last time you spoke to either
18 George or Frank over the phone?
19 A To the best of my recollection it was before I
20 left for Morocco.
21 Q Do you recall either conversation with the
22 specifics?
23 A At this moment I do not.
24 Q If you can turn to Tab Two, please.
25 A Okay.
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1 Q It's six pages in, Tab Two, this is the e-mail
2 we were discussing earlier. I didn't -- the transcript
3 said it was April 29th and I was looking for April 29th,
4 but it was an April 20th e-mail from you to Frank with a
5 subject being, Centurion. And it states: Give me a
6 few, I'm working on another bar response from Adria so I
7 can continue this farce.
8 You had indicated on Friday in your testimony
9 that that was an indication to you that Frank by that
10 time knew that the bar thing was something you had made
11 up; is that right?
12 A It was one of many indicators.
13 Q Okay. And the farce that you're referring to
14 in that e-mail is the Ponzi scheme generally?
15 A No, I think the farce I'm referring to is the
16 nonsense with the bar that didn't exist.
17 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Frank
18 telling him that Adria wasn't a real person, that you
19 weren't actually meeting with Adria?
20 A I didn't have a conversation specifically
21 saying -- well, first of all I never would have said
22 Adria wasn't a real person because she was a real
23 person. I just wasn't doing business with her, not this
24 kind of business.
25 I had conversations with Mr. Preve regarding --
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1 I don't know the best way to really relate this to you.
2 I never said to Frank the bar thing is a scam. All
3 along after the beginning of it we were kind of in the
4 middle of it, I knew that Frank knew it was a scam.
5 Because you have to understand when Frank, and
6 here's how you measure this, when Frank really wants
7 something he didn't know; in other words, he is really
8 chasing a piece of information, the man is far from
9 stupid, he knows how to get it. He knows there are all
10 kinds of ways.
11 He joked around with me from time to time on,
12 do you think we're ever going to be able to produce any
13 letters about this bar thing to anyone? I said no, you
14 know.
15 Q That was a conversation?
16 A Yeah. He also told me he spoke to George and
17 then speaking to a guy name Mac Melville or Melvin.
18 Q Yeah.
19 A And that Mac wanted to speak to the bar and Mac
20 wanted to jump in. And I said absolutely not. I mean,
21 we're not getting anyone else involved.
22 Q Well, hold on a second.
23 Go ahead, you can finish.
24 A Go ahead. That's really the end of the
25 conversation.
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1 Q Okay. But based on the various indicators,
2 some of which we've discussed, I'd say middle 2009 or
3 April of 2009 Frank knows the bar thing is not real?
4 A By April of 2009?
5 Q Yeah.
6 A Yes, Frank, I'm confident, knew it was not
7 real.
8 Q Based on the --
9 A I don't know what he was telling George.
10 Q Based on the indicators that we've discussed so
11 far?
12 A Just based upon his overall knowledge of
13 everything and the fact that he didn't push me for
14 information that would have disclosed whether or not it
15 was or was not real and he just kind of played along
16 with it.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Yes. You have to take the whole thing in
19 context. You can't take individual pieces out. As I
20 sit here today, I don't have a specific recollection of
21 saying the bar thing is a scam. It's very possible that
22 I did during the course of the conversation, but I just
23 don't have, as I sit here with so much in my brain, I
24 just don't have a specific recollection.
25 Q Okay. If you could turn - it's quite a few
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1 pages in - November, sorry, September 22nd, 2009
2 e-mail.
3 A Same tab?
4 Q Same tab, yeah. The subject is, "the shit hit
5 the fan".
6 A That's descriptive. I got it.
7 Q You joked around a lot in your e-mails with
8 Frank, is that fair?
9 A We joked around all the time.
10 Q Both of you did.
11 A With a lot of underlying truthfulness in it.
12 Q The second page by the bottom e-mail, it's the
13 page marked, FP112310. You state: The subject is --
14 the e-mail is September 22, 2009, you to Frank: Sorry,
15 Bro, but I walked into a shit storm of insane magnitude
16 this morning. Adria was waiting for me with two
17 auditors and they were all over me about the
18 inconsistent funding and they were contemplating
19 shutting me down on the deal funding.
20 Why would you send an e-mail like that to Frank
21 if you he knew that it was not a real thing?
22 A I sent a lot of e-mails to Frank that were
23 meant for other's eyes. I sent a lot of e-mails to
24 Frank that Frank and I had discussed some of them and
25 some I just sent gratuitously. I sent a lot of e-mails
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1 to Frank that I assumed that he would be passing on to
2 others who were asking a lot of questions.
3 Q Including George Levin; correct?
4 A Very possibly George, yes.
5 Q The next one says, Frank says: We're going to
6 have to ask for a meeting with the bar. Should it be
7 Broward or Tallahassee?
8 And then you respond that you're going to set
9 up a conference call with Adria and her boss.
10 And then Frank mentions Mac. He says: Can we
11 have Mac Melvin, George's litigator, on the conference
12 call?
13 Then your response is: Not really a great idea
14 but if you think it will help, sure. Don't see why
15 not.
16 I take it it's fair to say you were bluffing
17 there?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you think Frank --
20 A Bluffing for people other than Frank. I mean,
21 at this stage it's pretty clear to me that, again, you
22 have to put everything in context, there's clearly a
23 massive fraud going on that Frank is clearly aware of.
24 Go back and look at the e-mails.
25 At this time - and you can see it develops into
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1 all of a sudden exactly what I thought could happen is
2 happening, Frank is sending this to George. Because the
3 way the e-mail traffic works the second you put George's
4 name on the CC all the prior e-mails go to him.
5 So, it gives George a picture of, I suspect,
6 the picture that Frank wanted to paint for George or
7 that Frank wanted to paint for the hedge funds, that I
8 wanted to paint for the hedge funds.
9 Q Would this be something that would give comfort
10 to both George and Frank?
11 A Give comfort to Frank? I don't think anything
12 was going to give comfort to Frank at this stage. We're
13 in September and I'm scrambling for huge money.
14 Q Then you do respond -- Sorry, then Frank
15 responds, CCing George: We need an attorney when she
16 pulls this BS about the accounts not being blocked. Or
17 how she has no nexus to us as the assigned beneficiary
18 of the matured funds.
19 And then you -- sorry, George responds: Frank,
20 we don't need Mac. What we need is a face-to-face with
21 her then we might or might not need Mac?
22 By this time, the conference call, the
23 conference call with Adria where there were certain
24 members from the hedge fund group present in your
25 office; do you recall that? That was from April.
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And Frank and George were both present, right?
3 A I don't recall who was present.
4 Q You don't recall whether either of them was
5 present?
6 A I don't recall who was present.
7 Q You do know some of the hedge fund guys were
8 there?
9 A I do recall that, yes.
10 I think at least Frank was on the call.
11 Q Okay. Do you know if he was in your office or
12 was he on the call itself?
13 A You know, I don't recall one way or the other.
14 I recall originating the call from my office, but I
15 don't recall where all the players were.
16 Q And who was the person that was acting as
17 Adria?
18 A That, I don't remember.
19 Q You don't remember? Was it somebody in your
20 office?
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q But you don't remember specifically the name of
23 the person?
24 A For some reason I do not remember. It was a
25 female, more likely than that a lawyer, but I don't
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1 remember who it was.
2 Q Is that the only call like that that you had
3 with that person who was pretending to be Adria
4 Quintela?
5 A To my recollection, yes.
6 Q When somebody walked into your office was there
7 a sign-in sheet?
8 A No.
9 Q There wasn't a sign-in sheet at your office at
10 the front desk?
11 A No.
12 Q Was there one downstairs in the lobby of the
13 building where your office was located?
14 A No.
15 Q Anything that would indicate and create any
16 sort of paper trail about when somebody went to your
17 office and didn't go to your office other than the
18 e-mails you would get from your secretary or somebody
19 waiting for you in the lobby?
20 A Other than the surveillance video that might
21 have existed, no.
22 Q Does that still exist?
23 A I have no idea.
24 Q Do you know how long the tapes would be
25 recorded on the surveillance video?
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1 A I don't know anything about it. I heard at one
2 point in time that our surveillance video was saved,
3 then I heard at another point in time it erases over
4 every few days. I don't have a clue.
5 Q You haven't looked at it since you came back
6 from Morocco?
7 A I hadn't even looked at it when I was there.
8 Q Is that something you had installed yourself,
9 the surveillance video in your office?
10 A I don't know what you mean by myself.
11 Q I mean, not yourself, at your direction?
12 A I'm the one who wanted surveillance in the
13 office, yes.
14 Q You indicated that it was dozens of times that
15 Frank Preve came to your office; is that right?
16 A There were, there were dozens of times that
17 Frank came to my office. Dozens.
18 Q And in one of those visits it became clear to
19 him that there were no settlements, he looked at
20 unredacted documents.
21 A I never said it was during one of those visits.
22 Q It was a meeting in your office?
23 A No. You're thinking about me showing him the
24 unredacted documents.
25 Q Right. That's what I'm asking about.
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1 A One thing has nothing to do with the other.
2 It's just another little notch of the many.
3 Q So, was Frank aware that there weren't any
4 actual settlements?
5 A At some point in time, yes. All you have to do
6 is look at the e-mail traffic to realize that he knew
7 these people didn't exist.
8 Q Do you know -- did you -- can you give me a
9 little -- I understand what you're saying, can you give
10 me a little more specificity when he was aware there
11 were no settlements?
12 A When?
13 Q Yes.
14 A No.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Sometime in '08.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Maybe before that.
19 Q You don't recall what the number was --
20 A Now that I'm thinking about it, here's the
21 thing with Frank, as I'm recalling his e-mail traffic
22 with me, if you look at it, there are points in time
23 where it's clear to me, and I think clear to anyone
24 reading it, that he was a player. Okay, because he's
25 fooling around with things, just a legitimate investment
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1 guy just does not mess around with, balances and things
2 are a little wishy-washy, he's skating on the due
3 diligence, saying things like, I just need to make it
4 look like I'm doing due diligence. That's fairly early
5 on.
6 So, it would be - as you go through that and
7 you could see things escalating, you should be able to
8 pinpoint a time when it's clear, maybe not the day he
9 knew, but certainly within the 30- or 60-day time frame
10 that he knew that there was a massive fraud going on
11 because things just made no sense.
12 And then you take out - if you make a list for
13 yourself of what you would do if you were investing
14 money, which is one of the things I did when I was
15 evaluating people on whether they would come into the
16 fraud or not - and did they ask for things. Look at the
17 difference between, for example, of the AJ Discala group
18 and the Clockwork people were asking for and as opposed
19 to what Frank asked for. It's night and day. There's
20 no comparison.
21 Q Are you saying that Frank didn't conduct due
22 diligence?
23 A Didn't conduct thorough due diligence. He of
24 all people, because of his closeness to the law firm,
25 should have had access if he wanted it to more telling
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1 documentation than anyone else and they did very
2 little.
3 In the beginning they talked to me about it.
4 And other than -- after that they basically rode on
5 other people's due diligence. I mean, there were a lot
6 of things that he could have asked me for, if he didn't
7 know what was going on, that would have exposed the
8 entire thing, something as simple as a paper bank
9 statement.
10 Q Wasn't he getting bank statements?
11 A No, sir, he was getting photocopies and scans
12 of screen shots. He never asked me for - early on,
13 never asked me for one, and it was one of my big
14 indicators. Because one of the things that would have
15 been very difficult for me to duplicate, and I talked to
16 Mr. Renie and Corte about it, is the bank paper.
17 Because the way the bank has that paper, the way it
18 looks and everything, all he had to do was say, let me
19 just see the last 10 months, the last two months, the
20 last three months, bank statements, I couldn't produce
21 that.
22 Q Did Frank ever ask you to take him on a bank
23 visit?
24 A I don't know if I ever took Frank.
25 Q Did he ever ask you about the bank visits that
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1 you did go on?
2 A Only to ask me how they went.
3 Q And is it fair to say that Frank was concerned
4 and interested in learning -- let me rephrase that.
5 Is it fair to say that Frank asked about other
6 due diligence conducted by third parties such as the
7 hedge funds or Szafranski on a regular basis?
8 A Not in the way that you're intimating. He
9 asked more frequently than not with regard to how it
10 went. It's kind of like what we were talking about
11 earlier when he was saying in his testimony - I think we
12 were discussing this before lunch - about him saying
13 that he knew nothing about me going to see those
14 lawyers.
15 But in reading your packet I found an e-mail
16 where he is actually writing to Brian Jedwab saying to
17 him, you came down here, you did all this due diligence,
18 you went to see several referral sources.
19 Now, if Frank isn't lying in his testimony,
20 then you have to believe he did no due diligence in that
21 regard, but he could have very easily asked me, who are
22 the referral sources you went to see.
23 If I take it the way you're painting this, he
24 didn't ask me that, when I know he did and it makes only
25 sense that he would have.
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1 Q Wasn't he asking for the results of their due
2 diligence? Wasn't he looking to see what they produced?
3 A Think about how telling this is. He's only
4 asking Brian Jedwab in that e-mail, he doesn't send me
5 an e-mail because I've already told him if he didn't
6 know at that point in time how it went, really knew, if
7 he didn't know that I had gone and it was all a fraud
8 and that I thought it went well, when he writes to Brian
9 and Brian doesn't give him anything, how about just
10 writing to me and saying, Scott, I want to know who the
11 heck you guys met with; Scott, I want to know what was
12 said; Scott, I want to know how it went out, I can't get
13 this information from the hedge funds. But he already
14 knew so he's not asking.
15 Q Did you always respond to Frank's e-mails?
16 A Always is a big word. I tried to respond to
17 his e-mails as best as I could. Sometimes when he wrote
18 me if it was something I considered ultrasensitive I
19 would call him.
20 Q Now that we're talking about it, I forget
21 exactly -- here it is, it's the Jedwab e-mail, it's at
22 Tab Four, dated January 27, 2009.
23 A Got it.
24 Q He's saying in the third sentence, I'm sorry I
25 can't read it.
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1 Second sentence: You will recall that we
2 stopped all the lending activity because
3 Centurion/Platinum had not done a thorough due
4 diligence. Ari and you then spent two or three days
5 reviewing intake procedures, speaking to referral
6 sources, et cetera, and evidently came away satisfied.
7 Do you know if he's basing that on the
8 conversation you had with him or on a conversation that
9 he had with Ari?
10 A I would be guessing and I don't want to guess.
11 Q But you did call him from one of those
12 attorneys' offices to tell him everything was going
13 fine?
14 A I may have called him. You'd have to look at
15 my cell phone records and the office records from the
16 various places, but my recollection is that I called him
17 more than once as the day was progressing.
18 Q And do you know if Frank considered the hedge
19 fund guys to be sophisticated investors?
20 A I think he considered most of them to be
21 sophisticated. I think as with any organization you
22 have some that are sophisticated and some that are not.
23 Q Let's go back to Tab Three, beginning of Tab
24 Three, there's a variety of e-mails here that I want to
25 go through. The first one is April 13, 2009 e-mail.
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1 A Is it the first page?
2 Q It's the first page, yes.
3 A Okay.
4 Q The title is: "Be careful". And it's April --
5 Frank says: George knows nothing about Regent.
6 And then you respond: Sorry, I did not think I
7 sent anything to you regarding them. I am on the phone
8 with the bar, so I'm a big upset right now.
9 Do you know if Frank and you regularly kept
10 things from George Levin?
11 A I believe we did, yes.
12 Q And is it fair to say that there's probably
13 quite a few e-mails indicating that George Preve was
14 unaware of certain things that you and Frank
15 acknowledged that George Levin was being kept in the
16 dark on certain things?
17 A I believe so, yes.
18 Q And did you indicate earlier in your testimony,
19 I think on Friday or actually earlier last week, that
20 George was monitoring Frank Preve's e-mails?
21 A What I said was, I believe that George had
22 access to the e-mails. Now, I'll give you an example.
23 I had access to all of my employees' e-mails, did I read
24 them, no. Too much traffic. George may have been
25 looking at his e-mails, there were times when I was
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1 having conversations with George that he just seemed to
2 be divining things that he couldn't otherwise know.
3 But do I know for a fact that he actually read
4 the e-mails, no, I don't.
5 There were certainly times when Frank
6 intentionally copied him on things and then later on I
7 saw e-mails, after the Ponzi exploded, where it was
8 clear that Frank was sending him things. So, I don't
9 know what he knew or what he didn't know. He certainly
10 wrote a lot of e-mails, George, that indicated he didn't
11 know.
12 Q That he did not know?
13 A That he did not know certain things.
14 Q The e-mail that you responded -- the April 13th
15 e-mail where you respond to Frank: Sorry, I did not
16 think I sent anything to you regarding them and I am the
17 on the phone with the bar so I am a bit upset right
18 now.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Who did you intend for that to be seen by other
21 than Frank?
22 A I didn't know who was going to see it.
23 Q But at that point you thought there was a
24 possibility that George could see it?
25 A I think all along I thought that Frank might
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1 send things to George or George might look. But if you
2 look at the bar thing, you have to get inside my head to
3 do this, okay. If you look at the bar thing, I played
4 that bar thing up to the hilt the entire time this was
5 going on.
6 Initially, I wanted to be believed. Later on
7 with Frank I couldn't have cared less whether he
8 believed it or not. After that I was sure he didn't
9 believe it, okay. It was just one of the ministrations
10 going on at the time. It was my reason for not paying
11 money out initially to them and then ultimately to the
12 hedge funds because I was spending too much of the money
13 we were taking into the scam.
14 So, there's a lot that goes into it. You can't
15 take one e-mail out of thousands and try to read
16 something into it. You won't get the proper context.
17 Q There was questioning on Friday relating to the
18 fake judicial order that was drafted in your office and
19 I believe Mr. Scherer talked about the metadata. You
20 don't have any evidence like that that George was
21 looking at Frank's e-mails when you see the metadata -
22 you didn't see any metadata, anything like that, since
23 you've come back from Morocco?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q I'm asking. So, what I want to know is whether
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1 you know for a fact that George was looking at Frank's
2 e-mails?
3 A I believe I already told you no. I don't know
4 that for a fact.
5 Q Okay. Did you -- you met in August with --
6 A You know, while I'm thinking about this, one of
7 the other things that always, I guess, led me to believe
8 that he might have access to it, and this is the flip
9 side of it, is that when Frank did certain things to me
10 he wrote to me on that gsteinbauch e-mail. Now, I can't
11 imagine - unless he believed that someone had access to
12 his fpreve e-mails why he would use that for certain
13 nefarious transactions.
14 But again, I really don't know, you know,
15 there's a lot of e-mails there, sir, that indicate to me
16 that George did not know what was going on at various
17 levels, it's still a question in my mind.
18 Q The fpreve e-mail is an AOL account; right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And do you know if that was on the Banyon
21 network?
22 A You're asking the wrong guy, no.
23 Q When you met in August with the Trustee, is
24 that something that you indicated to the Trustee's
25 Counsel as to George's potential ability to have been
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1 reviewing Frank's e-mails?
2 A I have no idea.
3 Q You don't recall one way or the other?
4 A I don't recall one way or the other.
5 Q If you go further down that same tab.
6 A Yes.
7 Q A September 30, e-mail 2009, 11:42 am, from
8 Frank to you.
9 A What time?
10 MR. SCHERER: Where are we, Counsel?
11 Q It's probably the --
12 MR. SCHERER: Tab Three?
13 Q Tab Three, it's a few pages from the back.
14 September 30, 2009 e-mail. The Bates is
15 0112310-0189124/1. Subject is a new Banyon.
16 A Got it.
17 Q Did you suggest to Frank that a lock letter
18 could be provided on certain Banyon accounts, trust
19 accounts?
20 A It came up in conversation. I don't know if I
21 suggested it to him or we had just talked about the fact
22 that I was utilizing it with other investors.
23 Q But that's something that you generally, you
24 testified earlier, did not offer to most people or did
25 not want to offer to most people?
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1 A I tried not to. Personally I tried not to have
2 to use it because it was, I believed, a strain on Frank
3 Spinosa and what was going on with him, so I tried not
4 to but where people wanted it I put it into play.
5 Q Would it be fair to say that Frank and George
6 wanted a lock letter for their Banyon related trust
7 accounts?
8 A At some point in time Frank asked me for a lock
9 letter for various accounts.
10 Q Okay. Okay.
11 A Frank knew it wasn't going to do anything but I
12 guess for paper purposes and for audit purposes when
13 other people were looking at it I suspect that was
14 something good to have.
15 Q Did you have a specific conversation with Frank
16 about the lock letters where you indicated that he knew
17 that it wasn't going to have any real effect?
18 A I think I testified earlier, I don't know if it
19 was last week or earlier with you, but I believe I
20 testified earlier that Frank was one of the people that
21 told me that with all his banking, it's the craziest
22 thing he's ever heard simply because of the wire
23 transfer capabilities.
24 Q What do you mean, can you explain that a little
25 bit more?
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1 A Yes. The lock letter professed to lock this
2 account so that the funds would be specifically sent to
3 a specific place when only requested by me or Stuart
4 Rosenfeldt. That was crazy. You want to know why?
5 Q That was crazy because of the ability to get on
6 it on-line?
7 A That was crazy number one because in a wire
8 system, the way Treasury Direct works, as long as I give
9 that little - I used to call it the magic decoder ring,
10 that little T file that gives you the different security
11 numbers, anyone that had our TD Bank sign-on and had
12 that little decoder thing, could go in and wire
13 anything.
14 As a matter of fact, the bulk of the time -
15 actually all of the time, neither Stu nor I, I don't
16 think ever initiated a wire. Maybe one or two in the
17 entire time we were doing this. So, the bulk of them
18 were never initiated by Stu or I, they were initiated by
19 Irene who had the decoder thing or by Bill Boockvor, who
20 had the decoder thing.
21 Q Did you have this conversation with Frank?
22 A That in depth?
23 Q No, not in that depth, but about his knowing
24 that the lock letters did not have any real effect?
25 A I recall conversations with Frank where he was,
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1 for lack of a better term, he was saying to me, What is
2 this cockamamie lock letter thing you guys were talking
3 about.
4 I explained it to him. I mean, even if you
5 look at -- It's clear if you look at Mr. Spinosa's
6 e-mails with Ms. Caretsky and Mr. Mejia and all those
7 people, you can see that they didn't even know what the
8 heck to do. Because at one point in time there's an
9 e-mail sent that says, This needs to be restricted to
10 transfers only made by Scott. And then it says, If
11 someone else tries to transfer the money out of here,
12 you should notify Scott.
13 There's all kinds of different entries.
14 There's nothing consistent. And the reason is there was
15 no process to do this actual thing.
16 Q Okay.
17 A It's just like the dual signature thing. If
18 you look at some of them from Preve, I remember seeing
19 an e-mail recently where Mr. Preve is sending an e-mail
20 to some other due diligence person, and they're saying,
21 I hope I never hear this out of Scott's mouth.
22 And it was about some big fraud where an
23 attorney had stolen a bunch of money out of trust
24 accounts. And Frank's response to that due diligence
25 person's inquiring about this is, That's why we require
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1 dual signatures.
2 There are no dual signatures. There are no
3 signatures on anything.
4 Q Do you recall what due diligence person that
5 was?
6 A Jim something. Headman? I can get it for you.
7 Q Who is he?
8 A I have no idea, just some due diligence person
9 they were working with.
10 Q A potential investor?
11 A Either a potential investor or one of the many
12 different funds Frank was talking to.
13 Q Okay. If you turn two pages from the e-mail
14 that we were just looking at.
15 A Two pages forward?
16 Q Two pages forward, yeah, towards Tab Four.
17 There's an e-mail there from you dated September 30,
18 2009, to Frank and --
19 A What's the time.
20 Q The time is 10:12 a.m.
21 A 01?
22 Q 01 a.m., exactly
23 A Got it.
24 Q On the second paragraph it says: Debra is well
25 into completing what needs to be completed. I am
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1 sitting here papering deals myself for the 40 million as
2 she's having a biopsy today. She will be in later.
3 Do you recall if Debra was actually having a
4 biopsy that day?
5 A There were many, many occasions where Debra was
6 out on medical visits. She had some very real
7 problematic medical issues.
8 Q You weren't actually papering any deals that
9 day, though, were you?
10 A Oh, no. I actually may have been inserting
11 information and getting it as ready as I could for her,
12 sure.
13 Q Do you recall specifically on that day whether
14 you were papering?
15 A I have no clue.
16 Q Did you ever make up excuses for Debra for lack
17 of papering?
18 A Sure.
19 Q To Frank and George?
20 A To Frank, to George, to just about everyone
21 involved in this, yes.
22 Q Can you turn to Tab Five, please.
23 A Okay.
24 Q And I'm looking at, it's the fourth e-mail in
25 there, January 11, 2009, an 11:11 a.m. e-mail from
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1 Frank.
2 A Tab Five?
3 Q Yes, Tab Five.
4 A I have one e-mail and a bunch of invoices.
5 Q No, that's Tab Six. I'm sorry.
6 A I have no Tab Six.
7 Q I'm sorry. Tab Four. I apologize. I was
8 reading the 5 as a 6.
9 MS. TRENCH: Can we have the date?
10 MR. RASCO: It's January 11, 2009, 11:11 a.m.
11 BY MR. RASCO:
12 Q And there's a table on it with trust balances
13 on it.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. You were talking earlier about an
16 indication that Frank knew that there were trust
17 issues. Was this the e-mail you were talking about
18 where there was a significant amount of money that was
19 not in one of the trust accounts?
20 A It's not the one I was addressing. It's
21 another one. It's not the one I was addressing
22 earlier. It is pertaining to the same account. The one
23 I was addressing earlier was one where he said, This is
24 impossible.
25 Q Okay.
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1 A This is similar.
2 Q The 9146 account?
3 A That's the best of my recollection.
4 Q You did mention that this morning, so that was
5 the other one then, the "This is impossible" e-mail,
6 which I don't have here with me.
7 A Yes. There's an e-mail where it's a more
8 significant shortage. This only appears to be a
9 $35 million shortage. The other one was close to a
10 billion dollar shortage.
11 Q And in this e-mail, if you look at the total
12 balance, 700 -- I can't read that number very well.
13 731 million and required --
14 A It looks like 751.
15 Q I'm sorry, 751, and required 516. Do you
16 recall having a conversation with Frank or anything
17 other than just this e-mail about this trust account
18 issue?
19 A Do I recall having a specific conversation with
20 him?
21 Q Yeah.
22 A No, but it's likely we did.
23 Q Why do you say that?
24 A Because normally when there would be problems
25 with this kind of thing I would pick up the phone and
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1 talk to Frank and ask him what he needed these things to
2 reflect. Sometimes we'd discuss the fact that, Is there
3 going to be more money coming in? I don't want to keep
4 changing these balance sheets. If there's going to be
5 large deposits coming in, let me know about them now and
6 I'll go ahead and I'll bolster the balance sheets now so
7 I don't have to have Deb and Irene keep changing the
8 thing.
9 Q Okay. Turning a few e-mails down, it's the
10 second of -- three pages or five pages from the end.
11 April 13, 2009, from Frank to you, 6:17 p.m.
12 A Hold on.
13 Q The subject is Banyon wires. Got it?
14 A No. How many pages in?
15 Q It's like four pages towards Tab Five.
16 A 4?
17 Q April 13, 2009, 6:17 p.m.
18 A Hold on. 6:17 p.m.?
19 Q 6:17 p.m.
20 A Okay.
21 Q The second paragraph in that e-mail Frank to
22 you says: The other issue is if there's a cash flow
23 problem with the trust funds; is this the case? If it
24 is we need to deal with it but don't send me off dealing
25 with Platinum and Centurion if the issue is really the
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1 trust accounts.
2 Do you recall that e-mail?
3 A I can't see it on here. Where is it?
4 Q Second paragraph.
5 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The Bates number?
6 MR. RASCO: The Bates number is
7 112310-0162270/1, part of the Preve production.
8 BY MR. RASCO:
9 Q It's the paragraph that begins, "The other
10 issue is" --
11 A Okay.
12 Q Okay.
13 A I recall this.
14 Q You recall this e-mail?
15 A I do.
16 Q And why was Frank inquiring if there was an
17 issue with the trust account funds. Is this an
18 disingenuous e-mail on his part?
19 A No. From time to time Frank would tell me,
20 scold me over the telephone and in person that I was
21 spending too much of the money. And he's asking me here
22 whether or not there's a problem with the amount of
23 money. Because, again, all we're concerned about is, is
24 there enough money in here to make our payments? Is
25 there enough money to keep everything going? Is there
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1 enough money to ultimately make sure we're making lots
2 of money, which we were at the time.
3 Q And --
4 A But you're misinterpreting, you're saying
5 because he's saying "trust funds," that that means
6 legitimate trust funds.
7 What he's asking me here is basically, Hey,
8 Dummy, have you spent too much money? Is there enough
9 in there to cover all these payments? That's what he's
10 asking me.
11 Q And you have conversations by phone or in
12 person that would back up that statement?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And he would tell you that you were spending
15 too much money. Is that something he actually told you
16 in person?
17 A More than once. He told me I spent money like
18 I hated it.
19 Q He told you you spent money like you hated it?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did he know how much you were spending?
22 A I spent money like I hated it.
23 Q Do you know if he had a specific idea of how
24 much you were spending or --
25 A Frank knew probably as well as anybody that I
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1 was literally out of control. As a matter of fact, he
2 once wrote me a note when I was -- You'll see an e-mail
3 when we were short on money, and Frank was quite
4 aggravated with me that I had drained accounts to the
5 extent that they were drained. We didn't have enough
6 money to fund, which was regularly a problem.
7 Q This is an e-mail relating to that?
8 A There are all kinds of e-mails like this.
9 Q But specifically about you having spent too
10 much money?
11 A I'm getting to it. His comment was, If you'd
12 stop buying every empty restaurant and bar and some
13 other thing in town, maybe we'd have some money left
14 over to fund some of these things.
15 Q Do you recall the approximate date that e-mail?
16 A I don't.
17 Q There's an e-mail two pages in from the one
18 that -- I'll give you exact.
19 A When you say in, you mean forward or back?
20 Q Towards 5. It's an April 27, 2009, e-mail.
21 It's from Frank to you. It's an e-mail chain between
22 Frank and you.
23 A It starts out on the bottom with my e-mail?
24 Q Correct.
25 A Okay.
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1 Q The third paragraph says, "Jack was here with
2 me. Went to the bank and received verification from a
3 bank officer as to the balance. Thus, he knows all
4 their money is in the bank. Now that the ball is in
5 their court, I proved that we have their money. Now
6 they need to step up and do their part to get me out of
7 this mess. In order to save my ass they need to make
8 the first large deposit as I will not touch their funds
9 until I can represent to the bar that the dispute with
10 the funding sources is over and settled."
11 This is an e-mail from April 27th.
12 A Okay.
13 Q Why would you send an e-mail like this just to
14 Frank if he's aware that the money is not in the bank
15 and that the bar issue doesn't really exist?
16 A For his use sending it to other people, cutting
17 and pasting it, using the entire e-mail. You have to
18 look at all my e-mail traffic. Put it all together and
19 you'll see that I regularly - with everybody, not just
20 with Frank - I regularly provided people who were
21 clearly involved in the fraud with e-mails providing
22 both myself and others with what I'll call plausible
23 deniability.
24 Q But you do know that Jack was with you and that
25 you did take him in the bank, correct?
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1 A I understand that. But there are things in
2 here, if you look at it, I paid off all outstanding
3 clients. Frank, you have the list. I then bring
4 Platinum and Centurion and Level 3 current.
5 To me, as I sit here today, that's something I
6 wrote expecting Frank to forward that or at least pieces
7 of it off to the hedge funds. Because, number one, we
8 had no intention at this stage in April of bringing them
9 current. We had too many other things to fund. But if
10 they didn't believe they were going to be brought
11 current they weren't going to fund anything.
12 We were just trying to get them -- if you look
13 at the e-mail history, you'll see there's plenty of
14 e-mails where we're trying to come up with various ways
15 to put them in a trick box to get them to fund.
16 So, again, you can't take -- unfortunately
17 because of the sheer voluminous nature of the paper in
18 this case, you can make anything look like anything by
19 pulling one e-mail out or pulling a few e-mails out.
20 All the e-mails need to be read all together and you get
21 a pretty clear picture as to who was involved and who
22 wasn't, what they knew, what they didn't know. It's a
23 very telling story.
24 Q If I told you that you have about over 7,000
25 e-mails between you and Frank where you and Frank were
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1 both copied, does that sound accurate to you?
2 A I would have thought there was more. I think I
3 was told at one point in time there were over a million
4 e-mails involved in this case in total.
5 Q The last e-mail -- sorry, the second to last
6 e-mail --
7 A Is that the second to last under Tab Five,
8 meaning the end of the book?
9 Q The second to last e-mail in Tab Four. The
10 subject is "Unknown." It's October 1, 2009, 2:41 p.m.,
11 from you to Mike Szafranski. I believe you testified
12 about this e-mail this morning.
13 A Yes. This is me writing one of those fake
14 verification letters for Mr. Szafranski.
15 Q Right. And this one is addressed to Mr. Preve,
16 correct?
17 A No. I write it first -- I don't know which one
18 you're looking at. At 2:41 I sent it to Mike.
19 Q Right.
20 A And then at 2:45 Mike sends it to Frank.
21 Q Yeah. I just mean, "Dear, Mr. Preve." You
22 wrote, Dear Mr. Preve at the 2:41, sent it toke, and
23 then Mike sends it to Frank?
24 A Yes.
25 Q I take it that you're suggesting that this
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1 would be something that Mike is sending to Frank for
2 other people's eyes?
3 A Well, that's what it's for. You can tell by
4 the way it's written that it doesn't look anything like
5 what I would write to Frank.
6 Q Well, does Frank know that you're the drafter
7 of this e-mail?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Frank knew that you were the drafter of this
10 e-mail when he received it?
11 A What had occurred was, if I recall correctly,
12 Szafranski had sent an earlier e-mail, whether this one
13 or it was another one, either to Frank or to some other
14 investor that he did verification for, and Frank did not
15 like the format. And I discussed the format with
16 Frank. I formatted the letter for Mike, gave him the
17 amounts, gave him the deal numbers. Just said, You cut
18 and paste it over, change who's signing it and zip it
19 over to Preve.
20 Q Why didn't Frank like the format, if you
21 recall?
22 A I don't recall. But if this was -- if you look
23 at this, this is going to -- this is BS, BUS V1 and V2.
24 And I recall that we had some pretty heavyweight
25 investors. I don't recall who they were at the time in
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1 those two. There was some pretty heavyweight investors,
2 I think one was Mr. Scherer's investors. And I wanted,
3 and Frank wanted, a very formal verification letter.
4 A matter of fact, I think this is the most
5 formal verification letter that Szafranski, through me,
6 ever wrote.
7 Q Did Frank specifically discuss this
8 verification letter with you?
9 A I recall discussing with him verifications in
10 general regarding the Von Allmen, Clockwork, et cetera,
11 investors. Whether this was the specific one, I can't
12 tell you, but it certainly fits Frank's and my mold,
13 that we would have discussed it before it came over
14 because otherwise I wouldn't have known exactly what he
15 wanted into it.
16 Q Did you, Frank, and Mike Szafranski ever meet
17 together?
18 A A few times, yes.
19 Q Socially or for the investment strategy, let's
20 call it?
21 A Both.
22 Q Was Frank ever present at the verifications
23 that Szafranski was conducting at your office?
24 A He may have been in my office while Mike was
25 doing that. But, again, I wouldn't have put them both
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1 together at any point in time to go pushing through
2 things.
3 Q You --
4 A As I told you earlier, I tried to discourage
5 people involved in the fraud from talking to one
6 another.
7 Q Again, you said there was never a sign-in sheet
8 at your office? You testified to that earlier.
9 A There was no sign-in sheet in my office. Maybe
10 Bova has records of Frank coming over because Frank used
11 to come over - probably a dozen of the times he came
12 over he would come over and he'd just go directly to the
13 bar at Bova and he'd say, Get your ass down here. I'm
14 down at the bar waiting for you.
15 We would do our business down there.
16 Q Would you meet him there more often than you
17 met in your office?
18 A No. We would generally head there after
19 meeting in the office, but not necessarily starting
20 there more often than not, no.
21 Q Okay. Do you know if Frank ever drafted any
22 deal documents for you?
23 A You have to rephrase the question.
24 Q Was Frank ever involved in the drafting of deal
25 documents?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you be more specific as to how he was
3 involved?
4 A At the time that we were creating the initial
5 packet increased, the look and appeal of our settlement
6 documents, he came up with some ideas along with me
7 regarding the Purchase and Sale Agreements, the Transfer
8 Agreements.
9 I, at one point in time, wanted to do an
10 assignment. He said, No, the assignment's not going to
11 look right. Let's do this kind of document. And so,
12 yes, he participated in the drafting and creation of
13 what came to be known as our final deal packet.
14 Q He was doing it from a business deal structure
15 perspective, though, wasn't he?
16 A I don't know what that means. We were doing
17 everything from a business deal structure perspective.
18 When you're conducting a fraud and you want it to pass
19 muster, you conduct everything as if it's real, as close
20 as possible.
21 Q I'm just asking whether he was involved in the
22 actual writing of the legal documents, in other words,
23 writing what was --
24 A Yes, I just answered that question. He was
25 involved in the -- let me look at the names of the
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1 documents and I'll tell you specifically.
2 In the contract of employment he was not
3 involved, I don't think he gave me, because we used our
4 standard contract of employment.
5 The Confidential Settlement Agreement and
6 General Release, he gave me some wording to add into
7 that, especially with regard to the financial advisor
8 stuff.
9 The Acknowledgment of Assignment, Purchase of
10 Settlement Proceeds, he and I went back and forth on
11 that document extensively regarding the language, so he
12 was heavily involved in that.
13 The Sale and Transfer Agreement, same answer.
14 He was involved.
15 Q Was this all in 2007?
16 A I don't remember when it was. Whenever the
17 first -- Look at the date we have the first full deal
18 packet that looks like this, that's when it was.
19 Q Okay. Do you recall if that was about 13 deals
20 into it?
21 A I don't recall. The other Sales and Transfer
22 Agreement, same answer. So, yes, he was involved.
23 Q And at that time was he aware that anything
24 illegal was going on?
25 A Again, you have to look at the entire set of
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1 e-mails to know what he knew when.
2 Q Assuming we're talking about 2007.
3 A What time in 2007?
4 Q You know, early on when -- let's say early to
5 mid 2007, April, March, April.
6 A By mid 2007 it's my opinion that Frank had a
7 good idea as to what was going on or at least started to
8 sense it. Again, I can't without sitting and going
9 through the e-mails for you and making a timeline, which
10 I suggest you do, you're not going to be able to
11 pinpoint it exactly.
12 The way this worked with Frank and everybody
13 else is I kept putting feelers out there. Give them a
14 little bit. They pick up on something. See how they
15 react. Take it to the next step. And, again, keep
16 opening the Ponzi door little by little until they are
17 in in whatever role they wish to be involved in.
18 As I said, some people didn't take the bait.
19 Some people took it hook, line, and sinker.
20 Q Did Frank ever fill in the blanks as far as the
21 names of parties on any of these settlement agreements?
22 A No. But he did from time to time call me and
23 tell me that I had the wrong names in there. He told me
24 I had the wrong amounts in there. He told me I had the
25 wrong deal numbers in there. And this is very telling
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1 because this is after these plaintiffs and defendants
2 have allegedly signed these documents.
3 And one of the other things you should look at
4 is the timing of these documents. What you realize is
5 that it would be physically impossible, if you look at
6 the turn-around time from the time that we allegedly
7 settled the case to the time that the documents are
8 produced and signed, in many cases it's physically
9 impossible unless I had some kind of transporting
10 machine to transport defendants all over the country
11 into my office.
12 Q Did you ever have that kind of discussion with
13 Frank?
14 A No.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Not to my knowledge, no.
17 Q Did you ever tape record any of the meetings in
18 your office?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Do you recall regularly sending Mr. Preve
21 e-mails that you were meeting with clients or working on
22 settling a case in 2008, 2009?
23 A Especially when I was trying to generate
24 attraction for deal flow, I would send him all kinds of
25 crazy e-mails about negotiating, what was going on.
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1 Sure.
2 Q Explain what you mean by, when you were trying
3 to generate attraction for deal flow?
4 A Well, initially before he knew what was going
5 on I was trying to attract deal flow with him. After he
6 knew what was going on I wanted him to be able to
7 utilize the e-mails to attract deal flow from others.
8 There were times when, if you look at what was
9 going on, there were times when I actually sent Frank
10 e-mails telling him that I was someplace where it's
11 clear to Frank knew that I wasn't there because, for
12 example, I would say I was out of state handling
13 something, and then an hour later Frank and I were
14 meeting downstairs at Bova.
15 Q Can you point to a specific date or e-mail?
16 A Again, I would need to see all the e-mails. I
17 could tell you - and we could actually match it to my
18 travel manifest and the like. I'm saying I'm in Cape
19 Coral, Florida, negotiating a big deal with seven
20 plaintiffs or something. And then an hour later there's
21 a receipt from me being in Bova with Frank for several
22 hours.
23 Q That's not something that Frank would raise in
24 an e-mail, like, I'm meeting you in a half an hour, I
25 know you're not there?
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1 A No, no, no.
2 Q Is it fair to say that Frank was regularly on
3 your back about the fact that deals weren't always
4 papered on time?
5 A Yes. Frank thought that the major weakness in
6 everything we were doing was the fact that he was giving
7 me tens of millions of dollars without paper and he
8 thought that would come back to bite us in the ass some
9 day, and he expressed that on more than several
10 occasions.
11 Q Did he express that in e-mails?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How so? Do you mean the biting of the ass?
14 A Bite in the ass, not of.
15 Q Is that in an e-mail?
16 A Yes, it is. As a matter of fact, I think it's
17 the same, turn around and bite us in the ass. There's
18 all kinds. Look at those e-mail tracks -- excuse me --
19 those e-mail segments where he and I are going back and
20 forth about the lack of paper - well, not going back and
21 forth. He's kind of writing to me saying, Where's my
22 documents. I thought Deb was going to do the old
23 documents. He keeps putting old documents. There's all
24 kind of stuff there.
25 If you put the e-mails out, you'll see what I'm
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1 talking about. He's asking for things that we're going
2 back and creating. He asked me at one point how to
3 backdate documents. There's a whole plethora of things
4 that he did that indicate the level of his knowledge.
5 Q You talked yesterday or on Friday, I believe it
6 was, about the fact that you were diagnosed in college
7 with acute anxiety disorder; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And since you've returned from Morocco have you
10 had any psychological evaluations?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you taken any polygraph exams?
13 A No. Oh, yes. Actually I did.
14 Q Since you returned --
15 MR. LaVECCHIO: I have to object at this
16 point.
17 MR. RASCO: Can we take a five minute break,
18 please?
19 (Thereupon, a short break was taken.)
20 3]
21 BY MR. RASCO:
22 Q Ready to go?
23 A I am.
24 Q Mr. Rothstein, I'm going to hand you an e-mail
25 that was not included in my binder.
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1 A Okay.
2 Q Here's two copies. If anybody wants a copy, I
3 have copies.
4 It's a July 27, 2007 e-mail from Frank to you
5 and the subject is lunch. And it states: I would love
6 to come but I have to do my unlicensed practicing of law
7 for most of today. I will take a rain check. How is
8 next Friday as George will be out of town and I will
9 have my feet up on my desk thinking about what kind of
10 problems I can create for him. Thanks anyways. P.S.
11 Get me my documents.
12 Do you remember this e-mail?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Doesn't this e-mail indicate to you that
15 George - there's no way George Levin would be looking at
16 Frank's e-mails?
17 A What, you think because he's making a joke
18 about this?
19 Q You think that's a joke?
20 A Listen, as I sit here today, again, I don't
21 know if George was looking. Based upon everything I've
22 read, I think, most of the e-mails indicate that George
23 was not looking at them. I do recall being told that he
24 had access to; but access and actually doing are two
25 completely different things. There are better e-mails,
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1 I think, than this that would indicate that George was
2 not looking at e-mails. This one is just -- I mean,
3 believe me, me and George and Frank joked around all the
4 time about who was working, who was not, what Frank did
5 when George was out of town.
6 I understand what you're trying to do, it's not
7 the greatest example. I think there's other ones that
8 will help you better.
9 Q You agreed there's several e-mails that would
10 indicate that George was not looking?
11 A I testified to that numerous occasions. There
12 are a lot of e-mails out there.
13 Q You had a conversation, did you say, that
14 indicated to you that George was looking at his e-mails?
15 A There were times when I was talking to George
16 when he seemed to have knowledge about something that he
17 either would have to have devined, gotten directly from
18 Preve, or had been reading the e-mails. You know how
19 something just hits you funny when someone says
20 something and it seems to quote something you said
21 recently?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Those kind of things. It wasn't like a crazy
24 suspicion that I had.
25 Q Didn't you say you were joking with Frank about
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1 that, that the fact that he was looking at his e-mails
2 you were laughing with Frank Preve about that?
3 A Just now?
4 Q No, earlier in your testimony last week.
5 A I certainly may have.
6 Q Do you recall a specific conversation with
7 Frank where he indicated to you that George was looking
8 at his e-mails?
9 A I recall Frank telling me that George had
10 access to it.
11 Q You've talked about the rock-star lifestyle and
12 referencing several people. Were George and Frank
13 beneficiaries of the rock-star lifestyle that you've
14 talked about?
15 A George had his own rock-star lifestyle. He
16 didn't need me. And Frank, not really, no.
17 No, Frank was getting direct money.
18 Q Frank was getting direct money from who?
19 A From me.
20 Q In the form of cash?
21 A No, in the form of me pushing through deals
22 that were extraordinary like the 11 million in and 22
23 million out on the Regent deal and some multiple $50,000
24 invoices that we paid to him.
25 Q And what were those --
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1 A He was also being well taken care of by
2 George. My understanding was he made well over two
3 million dollars during the course of this.
4 Q From George?
5 A So, George wasn't -- from George and from me
6 and from the side deals he was doing, yes.
7 Q And the invoices, was that for consulting -
8 bank consulting work Frank was doing for you?
9 A That may be what he wrote on it.
10 Q Do you recall having a discussion with him
11 about that?
12 A About what to call it?
13 Q Well, no. Was he ever doing any actual bank
14 consulting work for you?
15 A Frank did all kinds of -- I guess you would
16 call it consulting, answering questions for me, I
17 answered questions for him. But it was part and parcel
18 of what he was doing for George, Centurion, and any
19 other investors he brought in. It wasn't something
20 separately that he was doing for me.
21 From time to time I may have had a banking
22 question for him, but I can tell you that all of the
23 times that I talked to him, even if he was billing me
24 $10,000 an hour it wouldn't add up to $50,000 worth of
25 work.
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1 Q All the payments for those invoices, they're
2 all in Tab Five, I believe.
3 A I saw that.
4 Q All those payments were made by check or wire
5 to him or --
6 A I don't know, you'd have to look. I don't know
7 which ones were paid, which ones were not. I don't know
8 how much it was. I was under the impression that
9 certain monies that we sent to other investors that he
10 was getting kickbacks.
11 From what I could tell he was very well
12 compensated. He never - he rarely complained to me
13 about the amount of money he was making.
14 Q Were there -- there's never any instance where
15 Frank was getting paid cash directly though; is that
16 right?
17 A I don't recall giving him any cash directly.
18 Q Same with George obviously, right?
19 A I never gave George cash, no, sir.
20 Q And as far as, you know, women, strip clubs,
21 escorts we talked about, nothing like that with Frank
22 and George; is that right?
23 A No.
24 MR. RASCO: Okay. I just want to state on the
25 record one more time that we don't agree that the
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1 two and a half hours with Mr. Rothstein is
2 sufficient time to properly cross examine him, but
3 because I've been allotted two and a half hours,
4 I'm going to close now. Thank you.
5 THE DEPONENT: Thank you, sir. Would you like
6 your notebook back?
7 MR. SCHERER: That should be made an exhibit?
8 MR. RASCO: Yes. Actually the last one that I
9 just gave him.
10 THE WITNESS: If you want to put stickers on
11 all this stuff before we get too deep in exhibits.
12 (Whereupon, Preve's Exhibit No. 207 was marked
13 for identification.)
14 MR. CRAIG: All the documents I'm using are
15 either from the exhibits that TD circulated or the
16 exhibits that Spinosa circulated or from the
17 750,000 documents that were produced on Thursday,
18 Plaintiff's notice of production, the restored,
19 deleted e-mails. That's not --
20 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We can't hear you too well.
21 MR. CRAIG: All the documents that I'm going
22 to use today as exhibits either came from TD Bank's
23 exhibits that they circulated, Spinosa's exhibits
24 or there's a single exhibit that I'm going to be
25 using that came from the production on Thursday,
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1 Plaintiff's production, restored, deleted e-mails.
2 And another, excerpts from your Third Amended
3 Complaint.
4 MR. SCHERER: No objection to either one of
5 those.
6 THE WITNESS: Whenever you're ready, sir.
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. CRAIG:
9 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Rothstein. My name is
10 Tucker Craig and I represent Rosanne Caretsky. I'm here
11 along with my co-counsel Mr. Dan Gelber.
12 A Mr. Craig, Mr. Gelber.
13 Q First of all, I haven't been here every day,
14 but I don't believe anybody has gone over any ground
15 rules with you. What I'm referring to are ground rules
16 for deposition. I assume that you're familiar with them
17 from your practice as a lawyer?
18 A I am.
19 Q And one of the ground rules that I would like
20 to stress with you before we get started is, it has to
21 do with speculation. You know as a former lawyer that
22 you don't want any witness to guess or speculate; is
23 that a fair statement?
24 A Depends upon what you're looking for.
25 Q Well, I'm looking for the truth and I don't
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1 want you to guess or speculate, okay?
2 A Understood.
3 Q If you don't know the answer to any question I
4 ask, would you just tell me so?
5 A You got it.
6 Q If you don't remember or recall the answer to
7 any question I ask you, tell me that also. Okay?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q During your responses to Mr. Scherer's
10 questions on direct you prefaced a lot of your answers
11 with I think, I believe, I suspect, perhaps, and then
12 you would follow up with an answer. Built into an
13 answer like that in my mind is a guess or a speculative
14 response. I don't want you to do that. Okay?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Now, what have you reviewed by way of
17 deposition transcripts in preparation for your testimony
18 here today?
19 A I don't recall.
20 Q Have you reviewed any deposition transcripts?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Have you reviewed any deposition transcripts of
23 my client, Ms. Caretsky?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q When was the last time you reviewed a
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1 deposition?
2 A Several weeks ago.
3 Q Prior to the commencement of your deposition
4 last Monday?
5 A Yes, several weeks prior to that.
6 Q Have you reviewed, other than during your
7 deposition I just marked as exhibits, have you reviewed
8 any documents since your deposition began on the 12th?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What documents have you reviewed since your
11 deposition began?
12 A A few hundred e-mails.
13 Q Pertaining to what?
14 A Pertaining to all sorts of things. Some of it
15 is pertaining to my continuing cooperation with the
16 government. In fact, all of it was with my continuing
17 cooperation with the government.
18 Q Have you reviewed any documents or e-mails or
19 correspondence or pleadings or papers having to do with
20 the Razorback case, Mr. Scherer's case?
21 A Not in the last several weeks, no, sir. As I
22 want to make sure, with regard to the big 2000-something
23 page complaint that Mr. Scherer filed, I haven't
24 reviewed that for many weeks. I recently, during the
25 course of my deposition, reviewed parts of a Complaint
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1 filed against Ted Morse.
2 Q When you say "during the course of your
3 deposition," are you talking about during a break or at
4 night in between segments?
5 A In the evening.
6 Q Is that the only thing --
7 A Some during a break.
8 Q Is that the only thing that you reviewed since
9 your deposition started other than what you told me
10 about the e-mails relating to your cooperation?
11 A Other than something that might be
12 attorney/client privilege, I haven't reviewed anything
13 else.
14 Q Do you recall the first time you met my client
15 Ms. Caretsky?
16 A I do not.
17 Q Do you recall what the context was of your
18 initial meeting with her, that is where were you, what
19 did it have to do with?
20 A I have no specific recollection.
21 Q Do you recall your initial meeting with meet
22 and greet with TD Bank representatives when your
23 relationship began back in early November of 2007?
24 A My first recollection is a dinner I had with
25 John Tolomer.
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1 Q Is that at Saint Regis?
2 A No, that was in a restaurant in Boca Raton.
3 Q Do you ever recall meeting my client during one
4 of those initial meetings?
5 A I recall meeting your client, I don't recall
6 specifically the date.
7 Q Let me see if I can help refresh your
8 recollection. There's been testimony in this case by
9 more than one person that she was present during the
10 initial meeting at your law office in early November.
11 Do you remember that?
12 A I don't remember whether it was in November or
13 not but I do remember her being in my office.
14 Q Actually there were two meetings in your law
15 office. One you walked in and said hi to everybody and
16 walked out; and a couple weeks later there was a meeting
17 when lenders from TD Bank came in and that meeting
18 lasted and you had sat down and attended that meeting,
19 that meeting lasted 30 minutes or less. Do you recall
20 that meeting?
21 A I recall being at a lender's meeting. I don't
22 know if it was that lender's meeting. If you're telling
23 me that was only one.
24 Q No, I'm not telling you that.
25 A Then I don't have a specific recollection of
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1 attending that meeting.
2 Q More specifically you don't have a specific
3 recollection of meeting my client at a meeting such as
4 that?
5 A I recall seeing your client at the Weston
6 branch. I recall seeing your client once or twice at
7 Bova restaurant. I don't recall seeing her any other
8 times, I have no reason to doubt what you're saying. I
9 just don't have a specific recollection of it.
10 Q Fair enough. You said you saw my client once
11 or twice at Bova restaurant?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Was that when she was there having lunch with
14 Uncle Bill?
15 A I don't recall who she was having lunch with
16 but I was in the restaurant as I was frequently and she
17 was there. I said hello.
18 Q You said a hello from across the restaurant,
19 correct?
20 A I couldn't tell you whether it was across the
21 restaurant or not but I said hello. I think what you're
22 looking for is there was no further conversation other
23 than hello.
24 Q That was at lunch, correct?
25 A I believe it was lunch, yes.
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1 Q As far as the other contact or I guess only
2 contact that you do have independent recollection of
3 with my client, were the shows that you've talked about
4 for the past week or so. Would that be a fair
5 statement?
6 A Yes.
7 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 208 was
8 marked for identification.)
9 BY MR. CRAIG:
10 Q Let me go ahead and show you a couple of
11 documents before we go any further. Let me show you
12 what's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 208 for
13 identification. It is an extension certificate from
14 Plaintiff's third amended complaint, it's titled
15 Paragraph Roman Numeral IX: Devastating Fallout. Pages
16 97 of 2210 through 101. May I approach?
17 A Thank you.
18 Q Take a look at that document and tell me if you
19 recognize it and if so, how?
20 A I remember seeing this. I read it at the time
21 that I was reviewing the original Razorback Complaint.
22 Q When you say original Razorback Complaint, are
23 you talking about an initial complaint?
24 A Sorry. For me, the first time I saw a
25 Razorback Complaint I think, thankfully, was the Third
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1 Amended Complaint.
2 Q Thankfully because it has 2210 pages plus a
3 couple of 1000 pages of exhibits?
4 A Yes.
5 Q That was a lot of homework; wasn't it?
6 A That is the understatement of the millennium
7 along with some others, yes.
8 Q As you sit here today -- Let me ask you, did
9 you read it cover to cover?
10 A Not in one sitting but, yes.
11 Q Over time?
12 A Over many weeks.
13 Q And did you find anything inaccurate about the
14 allegations contained in the Third Amended Complaint?
15 A Some things, yes.
16 Q Tell me about those.
17 A I don't remember what they are.
18 Q Tell me about --
19 A I can give you a couple examples that pop into
20 my head. There was a thing in there about Frank Preve
21 having an office with me, he didn't have an office in my
22 offices.
23 Q Did you tell anybody about that inaccuracy?
24 MR. NURIK: I'm going to object on privilege
25 grounds.
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1 MR. CRAIG: And instruct?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, obviously.
3 BY MR. CRAIG:
4 Q Okay. Got another example?
5 A You know what, I don't want to obviously go
6 through 2210 pages.
7 Q I'm not asking you to. Off the top of your
8 head --
9 A Nothing is popping out. But for some reason
10 that office thing is popping out in my head, probably
11 because we just discussed it and I remember it also
12 being in the Complaint. There were some inaccuracies,
13 yes.
14 Q Let's try to speed this up a little. I want to
15 call your attention to the second page of this exhibit,
16 which is Page 98, which would be Paragraph Roman Numeral
17 IX, A, little "e," period.
18 A You lost me.
19 MR. NURIK: Nine what?
20 Q You see the top of the first page it says Roman
21 Numeral IX Devastating Fallout?
22 A Yes.
23 Q The next Subsection is letter A.
24 A I got that.
25 Q TD Bank?
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1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Then 308 is the next paragraph?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And then the little letter "e".
5 A Got it.
6 Q Could you read that out loud, please?
7 A E: "On or about the summer of 2009 Rothstein
8 delivered to Caretsky $25,000 in cash for her continued
9 cooperation and participation in the Ponzi."
10 Q You maintain that as a true statement?
11 A Time frame I'm still vague on, but the delivery
12 of the funds, yes, sir.
13 Q Well --
14 A And the exact amount I'm a little vague on.
15 Q I believe there's been testimony about how the
16 allegation regarding a payment, alleged payment, to
17 Mr. Spinosa came about. In fact, there's an answer to
18 an interrogatory in this case in which the Plaintiffs,
19 Mr. Scherer and his clients, filed a response indicating
20 that the answer to a question about where and when the
21 payment to Mr. Spinosa was made came from a discussion
22 Mr. Nurik had with you and in turn what he related to
23 Mr. Scherer about his discussion with you.
24 A I lost you.
25 Q Okay. Does the allegation contained in
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1 Paragraph 308e, that you just read, is that information
2 consistent with what you told your attorney who - and
3 authorized him to tell Mr. Scherer with regard to any
4 payment to my client, Ms. Caretsky?
5 A It is consistent with what I've been saying
6 since the day I returned, so, yes.
7 Q Including the time period in which that payment
8 was allegedly made, that being the summer of 2009?
9 A No. I've never locked in any time period since
10 I've come back for the very specific reason that I don't
11 recall certain specific time frames. I have tried to
12 narrow it down as best I could but I don't know for
13 certain the exact time frame.
14 Q Well, the summer of 2009 is not a specific
15 time, that's a period, a three-month period at least,
16 correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Now, are you saying you weren't the source of
19 the information referencing the time period in which the
20 payment was allegedly made as reflected in Paragraph
21 308e?
22 A All I'm saying is that it could be incorrect as
23 to time frame.
24 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 209 was
25 marked for identification.)
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1 into the record, I prefer to read it to myself.
2 Q Okay. Read it to yourself.
3 A Okay.
4 Q Turn to the next page.
5 A Page 20.
6 Q That would be correct. Third full paragraph.
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Could you read that out loud?
9 A I can. "Rothstein indicated that there was
10 several hundred million dollars in trust accounts held
11 by TD Bank for the settlements. Rothstein then drove
12 Szafranski and Sochet in Rothstein's Bentley, one of the
13 many cars he showed to Sochet during his visit, to TD
14 Bank in Weston. Before entering TD Bank, Rothstein
15 advised Sochet that the managers of that branch would
16 help demonstrate the overall safety of the proposed
17 deals by personally handing Sochet an envelope verifying
18 the balances in one of our trust accounts and the wires
19 into the accounts."
20 Q Let me stop you there.
21 A Sure.
22 Q So far, is what you have read consistent with
23 the protocol for what has been described by you as a
24 show?
25 A Except for the car, yes.
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1 Q You mean sometimes you weren't driving the
2 Bentley?
3 A I don't even recall having a Bentley then, I
4 think he meant the Rolls Royce.
5 Q Continue reading aloud, please.
6 THE WITNESS: He's cross-examining me, I'm
7 being careful.
8 MR. SCHERER: They look the same.
9 A They don't look the same.
10 "Rothstein cautioned Sochet not to open the
11 envelope verifying the balances in the RRA trust
12 accounts and the wires into the account until Sochet
13 left the bank as Rothstein did not want the other
14 general employees of that branch knowing his
15 confidential business, because of the confidentiality
16 requirements under the Florida Bar Rules regarding these
17 confidential settlement investments."
18 Q Was the second part of that paragraph which you
19 just read into the record consistent with the protocol
20 for the shows?
21 A I'm not certain that that's the exact reason I
22 gave for not opening it but, yes, that is part of the
23 protocol, yes.
24 Q Regardless of the reason the protocol was for
25 the investors not to open the envelope until he had
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1 left - he or she had left the bank, correct?
2 A The protocol was to wait until we left the
3 bank, yes, sir.
4 Q Can you continue reading on the following
5 paragraph out loud, please, sir?
6 A Yes. "Sochet accompanied Rothstein and
7 Szafranski into TD Bank where Rosanne Caretsky, Caretsky
8 and Matthew Brennan, Brennan were waiting for Rothstein,
9 Szafranski, Sochet and Rothstein. Introduced Sochet as
10 an important client. Caretsky and Brennan introduced
11 themselves as officers of the bank and Rothstein asked
12 Caretsky and Brennan whether they had the envelope for
13 Sochet."
14 Q Let me stop you there. Was that, what you just
15 read from the fourth paragraph, consistent with the
16 protocol for the show?
17 A When you say the "protocol for the show," you
18 mean the way I wanted it to go?
19 Q Yes, sir.
20 A I don't know who Matthew Brennan is. I
21 actually thought it was someone that worked for
22 Szafranski, I am apparently wrong. But it was -- as far
23 as coming in, introducing the people to Caretsky,
24 getting the envelope, yes, that's correct.
25 Q But, there were other TD Bank representatives
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1 who were involved in these so- called shows other than
2 Ms. Caretsky, correct?
3 A To my knowledge, it was Caretsky and
4 Kerstetter. There may have been an occasion where
5 Mr. Mejia did it.
6 Q How about Mr. Garces in Deerfield Beach?
7 A Yes, Deerfield. I'm thinking just the Weston
8 branch, yes. Mr. Garces in Deerfield Beach, I believe
9 was played by Mr. Caputi.
10 Q Are you sure about that? You just prefaced
11 that answer with --
12 A Yes. I get what you're saying. In Deerfield
13 Beach, Caputi played Garces.
14 Q I don't know if you're getting what I'm
15 saying. What I'm saying is when I tried to go over with
16 you at the beginning of the deposition, I don't want --
17 I don't care what you believe, I don't care what you
18 think, I don't care what you surmise, I don't care what
19 you assume. All I want are facts. I don't want you to
20 guess. Too much at stake here, wouldn't you agree with
21 that, sir?
22 MR. SCHERER: Objection, form.
23 A Sure.
24 Q You wouldn't want -- people's liberty is
25 potentially at stake. Do you agree with that based on
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1 what you had to say last week and this?
2 A To some extent, sure.
3 Q You wouldn't want a decision about their
4 liberty to be based upon one of your guesses; would you?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q That wouldn't be fair; would it?
7 A Unless my guess leads to information showing
8 the culpability, that would be fair.
9 Q You mean unless you guessed correctly?
10 A No. I mean that if my --
11 MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
12 A -- if my information - whether I'm taking a
13 guess or speculating about something or giving my
14 opinion on something - if that leads investigators to
15 solid information regarding culpability then, yes, that
16 would be helpful and certainly be something upon which
17 their culpability should be based, yes.
18 Q So, as far as TD Bank representatives other
19 than Ms. Caretsky who you recall as being involved with
20 the so-called shows in which you participated, there
21 would be Ms. Kerstetter, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Mr. Mejia?
24 A I seem to recall him once, but I don't have
25 specific recollection so the answer is, I do not recall
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1 at this moment.
2 Q I think you seemed to recall him when
3 Mr. Scherer was asking you questions also; does that
4 ring a bell?
5 A No, because when I was discussing with
6 Mr. Scherer I was also discussing Caputi. I don't want
7 to guess.
8 Q You recall the meeting with Mr. Garces at
9 Deerfield now?
10 A No. I recall when I went to Deerfield, Caputi
11 being there.
12 Q How many times --
13 A If I met Mr. Garces it would have just been to
14 say hello.
15 Q Do you recall taking Jack Simony - planning to
16 take Mr. Simony to the Weston branch and Mr. Simony
17 receiving a call from his office in New York and a
18 request was made apparently from up there to go to a
19 different branch and then all of a sudden plans had to
20 be changed and arrangements had to be made for the show
21 to be done at the Deerfield branch; do you recall that
22 occurring?
23 A I do.
24 Q And Mr. Caputi had nothing to do with that; did
25 he?
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1 A Nothing to do with changing the plans?
2 Q Nothing to do with that show at Deerfield on
3 that occasion where there were last minute changes at
4 the request of Mr. Simony?
5 A At this time I don't specifically recall.
6 Q That portion of the first part of the fourth
7 paragraph that you read where you indicated that you
8 would -- strike that -- where it indicates that you
9 would introduce Mr. Sochet as an important client; is
10 that accurate?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Whenever you did these shows you didn't
13 introduce any of the people that you brought with you,
14 the so-called investors as such?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Could you read the last part of that paragraph
17 please, sir?
18 A "Thereafter, Caretsky and Brennan personally
19 and directly handed Sochet a sealed envelope in front of
20 Scott Rothstein and Mr. Szafranski. After Sochet left
21 TD Bank he opened the envelope and read the balances in
22 the account. See attached copies."
23 Q Is what you just read in that last portion an
24 accurate reflection of the protocol for the show?
25 A With the exception of Mr. Brennan's
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1 involvement, yes.
2 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 210 was
3 marked for identification.)
4 BY MR. CRAIG:
5 Q Mr. Rothstein, I'm showing you what's been
6 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 210 for identification.
7 And for the record, these four pages are taken from your
8 power point.
9 You looked at these last week, I believe.
10 A Okay.
11 Q Do you remember looking at these last week?
12 A I remember looking at the last two pages, I
13 don't remember seeing the first two. As a matter of
14 fact, I didn't see the first two pages.
15 Actually, I think, the only one I saw was Page
16 3. So no, I saw those last two pages.
17 Q We know you saw Page 3. You said something
18 about dancing with Ms. Kerstetter?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Now, why don't we take a look at Page 1?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Do you recognize any of the individuals who are
23 depicted on Page 1 of Exhibit 210?
24 A Yes, the man off to the left is Bill Boockvor.
25 Q That would be Uncle Bill?
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1 A Uncle Bill, correct.
2 Q And I believe you identified this series of
3 photographs or they were identified by Mr. Scherer as
4 stills taken from a video depicting one of the shows,
5 that being the show on September 15, 2009 at the
6 Weston - excuse me, at the 17th Street branch of TD
7 Bank?
8 A The first two pages I would call pre show, the
9 second two pages show.
10 Q And you call the first two pages pre show
11 because they depict Mr. Brock, Uncle Bill's early
12 arrival with an envelope in his hand before you arrived
13 with the investor, correct?
14 A He should be carrying a manilla folder with the
15 balance statements in it.
16 Q Isn't that what he has in his hand on Page 1,
17 that being his left hand?
18 A I can't tell what it is in his left hand. It's
19 something sticking out of his left hand but it's
20 sideways, it actually looks like his finger is really
21 long.
22 Q Two feet long?
23 A Yes.
24 Obviously it's not his finger. He's holding
25 something in his hand but I can't tell what it is.
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1 Q Fair enough. Do you recognize anybody else in
2 that photograph?
3 A In the first photograph?
4 Q Yes.
5 A No, I can't make anyone else out.
6 Q Top right, does that appear to be
7 Ms. Kerstetter?
8 A I have no idea who that is.
9 Q Second page, who do you recognize in that
10 photograph?
11 A Second page I recognize Bill Boockvor.
12 Q He's in the middle holding a piece of paper?
13 A He is.
14 Q Glasses half way down his nose?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q The third page you've already identified?
17 A I have.
18 Q The gentleman standing directly behind you with
19 a sports jacket and looks like a sport shirt on, do you
20 know who that individual is?
21 A I think we figured out it was Chris Padaras but
22 I don't recognize him specifically.
23 Q It resembles Mr. Padaras?
24 A Yes, in the limited extent I can tell from
25 this, yes.
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1 Q The last page?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Does that photo - does that more clearly depict
4 and enable you to identify that individual as
5 Mr. Padaras?
6 A No.
7 Q And who is standing to your left?
8 A To my left, Ms. Kerstetter.
9 Q And you have a manilla envelope in your hand?
10 A Yes, but that's odd.
11 Q That's odd?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What is odd about it?
14 A Because normally, as I recall, at every show
15 the statements were handed to me in a letter size,
16 meaning the kind you put a letter in and fold it up,
17 white TD Bank envelope. So, I'm not sure why it's being
18 given to me in this envelope. It's different than what
19 I would normally get from Ms. Caretsky or what I
20 remember getting from Ms. Kerstetter at the other
21 branch.
22 Q Again, I'll stand corrected, but as I recall
23 from your testimony last week, you indicated, I guess,
24 initially that you thought there were 24, couple dozen
25 shows and you backed that number down to a dozen and
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1 then I think you settled on 10 to 12. Does that sound
2 correct, I'm talking about in total?
3 A I would say in total somewhere between six and
4 12, yes.
5 Q Now, how many of those shows did you bring the
6 false balance statement with you and put it in the
7 envelope with the letter?
8 A My recollection, I don't specifically recall.
9 Q Did you do that?
10 A I don't recall ever doing that.
11 Q Let me see if I can help refresh your
12 recollection.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Mr. Nurik, could you hand him the transcript
15 from the Day One afternoon session?
16 A I have it here. What page?
17 Q 125 beginning Line 6 through Line 15. Could
18 you read it out loud, please, sir?
19 A Sure. Hang on. Page 125, line what?
20 Q Six.
21 A "Let me ask you this, do you have a
22 recollection as to how that statement got there?
23 Answer: Well, one of two things happened, or
24 one of several things; either Bill Brock brought it to
25 Ms. Caretsky as the normal process was, that's Boockvor,
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1 he goes by Brock.
2 Question: Right.
3 Answer: As was our normal process when we were
4 doing this - or I brought it with me and put it in the
5 letter, one or the other."
6 Q Does that help refresh your recollection of you
7 having brought the fake account balance sheet with you
8 and you putting it in the envelope with the letter?
9 A The only time that I did that, to the best of
10 my recollection, was when I was meeting Mr. Caputi. I
11 don't recall doing that any other time.
12 Q Have you had an opportunity to review Caputi's
13 deposition testimony in this case?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Have you had an opportunity to review the
16 transcript of his testimony in the Coquina trial last
17 week?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Are you aware that Mr. Caputi has testified
20 that on all three visits, he identified there being
21 three visits only, which is consistent with the charging
22 documents, I believe, information, the stipulated
23 statement of facts, plea agreement, and the sentencing
24 colloquy, that he went there on three occasions and on
25 each occasion he was handed an envelope by a
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1 co-conspirator, which he subsequently identified as
2 Mr. Brock. Are you aware of that?
3 A I was not aware of that.
4 Q Is that true?
5 A It's certainly possible, yes.
6 Q That would mean that you never handed
7 Mr. Caputi an envelope?
8 A That's why I said, "to the best of my
9 recollection."
10 Q So, were you guessing?
11 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
12 THE WITNESS: I was giving you my best
13 recollection.
14 BY MR. CRAIG:
15 Q Well, if your best recollection means you're
16 not sure or you're guessing, I don't want it.
17 MR. SCHERER: Objection, form.
18 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 211 was
19 marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. CRAIG:
21 Q Mr. Rothstein, let me show you what's been
22 marked as Exhibit 211 for identification. If you would,
23 please take a look. It's a composite exhibit Bates
24 numbered TD/Razor 001855 through 1860.
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And the last page of it is a, I think what you
2 previously identified as an account letter, dated
3 October 29, 2008.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Could you review these documents and tell me
6 whether you recognize them or have ever seen them
7 before?
8 A Give me one minute.
9 MR. SCHERER: Is that marked as an exhibit?
10 MR. CRAIG: Yes, 211. Do you want a copy?
11 MR. SCHERER: If you have an extra I would like
12 to have it, yes. I'll share it with Chuck.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 BY MR. CRAIG:
15 Q My question or questions regarding this
16 particular exhibit are brief. And I believe you may
17 have already testified to this when Mr. Scherer was
18 examining you.
19 Was this the October 29, 2008, was that the
20 date of the first show?
21 A I don't specifically recall.
22 Q You indicated that there came a point in time
23 when my client was on board, so to speak, or became a
24 player. Do you recall that testimony?
25 A There was a point in time when I enlisted her
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1 assistance, yes.
2 Q And when was that point in time? Or strike
3 that.
4 Was that point in time when you asked
5 Mr. Spinosa if he could have Ms. Caretsky sign what's
6 been come to known as an account letter?
7 A It was subsequent to the three Caputi visits.
8 Q It was after the three Caputi visits?
9 A When was the first Caputi visit and the last
10 one?
11 Q According to Mr. Caputi he posed as a plaintiff
12 in your law office on September 25, 2009.
13 A No. I'm not talking about plaintiff visits.
14 My apologies. I'm talking about bank visits.
15 Q Okay. I wasn't talking about plaintiff visits
16 either. I don't even know what they are.
17 A You just said one.
18 Q I'm giving you a point of reference in time.
19 Mr. Caputi has testified and all of the charging
20 documents and documents associated with his plea
21 indicate that he posed as a plaintiff in your office on
22 September 25, 2009. He testified that approximately a
23 month before that was the third visit that he made to
24 the Weston branch, which would have been August of
25 2009.
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1 A When was the first?
2 Q Somewhere around June or July of 2009.
3 A I just don't have a specific recollection of
4 the date.
5 Q Okay. Were there shows that took place before
6 June of 2009?
7 A It doesn't seem probable. No, sir.
8 Q Why doesn't it seem probable?
9 A I really need to put it in context. The very
10 first -- June of 2009 is the first one you're saying
11 Caputi testified to?
12 Q He had no exact date. He backed it --
13 A Well, I'm relying on you giving me an exact
14 date. I apologize.
15 Q No. I gave you what I gave you. You didn't
16 let me finish. I'll do it again for you.
17 A I'm sorry?
18 Q You don't know when the first show was; is that
19 correct?
20 A I don't. I don't recall specifically.
21 Q Do you know what year it was in?
22 A My recollection is it was in '08 sometime.
23 Q Does October 29th of 2008 help refresh your
24 recollection?
25 A No.
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1 Q Do these documents that comprise Composite
2 Exhibit 211, are they consistent with the run up to the
3 show?
4 A This particular set I don't recall seeing
5 before. But it looks like other documents that I've
6 seen regarding the run-up to the show, yes.
7 Q So they are consistent with the run up to the
8 show?
9 A They seem to be, yes.
10 Q So, if there was a show -- Strike that.
11 So, if these in fact are referencing a show,
12 there had to be a show on or about October 29th of 2008,
13 correct?
14 A Yes. Judging from the fact that there is a
15 letter here signed by Ms. Caretsky dated October 29,
16 2008, there had to be a show on or about that date.
17 Q And if there was a show on or about that date,
18 that would have been about the time that Ms. Caretsky
19 came on board, in your words?
20 A I can't say that for certain because of
21 Mr. Brock's involvement and Mr. Caputi's involvement as
22 well, and I'm not certain that they are correct as to
23 their dates.
24 Q Well, didn't you testify last week in response
25 to Mr. Scherer's questions that the first time
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1 Ms. Caretsky became involved or a player was when you
2 had Frank - he assured you that you could trust her to
3 write one of these account letters; isn't that a fact?
4 A It is a fact that Frank told me I could trust
5 Ms. Caretsky, yes.
6 Q At that point in time that was when you decided
7 that she was a player, correct?
8 A It was subsequent to that call that I
9 specifically told Ms. Caretsky that I needed to show
10 inflated bank statements to clients to secure additional
11 business.
12 Q And that would have been subsequent to the
13 October 29, 2008 letter that's before you, correct?
14 A You're assuming that. I don't know. We would
15 have to get exact testimony or documentary evidence as
16 to what date the first show was. I don't want to guess.
17 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 212 was
18 marked for identification.)
19 BY MR. CRAIG:
20 Q I'm showing you what's been marked as
21 Defendant's 212 for identification, it's a composite
22 exhibit TD/Razor 001841 through 1851. Could you take a
23 look at those documents and tell me if you recognize
24 them, and if so, how?
25 A I've seen some of these pages before but not
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1 the entire set of documents.
2 Q Does this appear to be the run up for the show
3 that took place at the Deerfield branch?
4 A It does.
5 Q And I believe you previously testified that it
6 was at this point in time that you believed that
7 Jennifer Kerstetter was participating in these shows?
8 A I don't recall the date that she got involved
9 at that level.
10 Q You don't recall that you testified to those
11 facts last week?
12 A You are saying, "those facts." I've been
13 testifying for six days.
14 Q Pertaining to my last -- Did you testify last
15 week that the first time you believed Jennifer
16 Kerstetter was involved in the show to the extent she
17 was replacing real account balances with fake ones that
18 you created or had created was on or about the time that
19 the show took place at the Deerfield branch?
20 A I don't recall saying that.
21 MR. CRAIG: I don't have another copy of this.
22 Let me ask you if you recall this exchange. This
23 was from on Page 72. Does anybody have a copy of
24 the morning, the first day morning?
25 MR. SCHERER: Morning or afternoon?
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1 MR. CRAIG: Morning, I think. Mr. Lichtman got
2 through more than 72 pages in the morning.
3 BY MR. CRAIG:
4 Q Let me read it to you and see if we can speed
5 it up, and I'll hand it to you after.
6 A That's fair enough. I trust you to read it to
7 me.
8 MR. SCHERER: What page?
9 MR. CRAIG: 72. That would be Monday morning
10 if it's actually 72. But my co-counsel has not
11 paginated my --
12 MR. SCHERER: Which part?
13 MR. CRAIG: What part? Morning.
14 BY MR. CRAIG:
15 Q Line one:
16 Question: "How about Ms. Kerstetter, did you
17 have any reason to believe that she was a player?"
18 Answer: "No. Actually the very first time
19 that I heard she was going to be involved I
20 panicked."
21 Question: "Tell me why."
22 Answer: "Because I heard that Ms. Caretsky was
23 not going to be at the bank and that we were going
24 to go doing this with someone new. We're in the
25 middle of a large criminal conspiracy and you don't
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1 want to inject new players unless you have to. I
2 was then told by Mr. Spinosa and by Bill Brock that
3 everything was fine. Ms. Caretsky had talked to
4 Ms. Kerstetter and that she was all a go, and it
5 went fine."
6 Does that help refresh your recollection as to
7 when it was that Ms. Kerstetter became a player, in your
8 words?
9 A No, because my recollection is that that
10 actually occurred at the Weston branch, not the
11 Deerfield branch. That doesn't say anything about the
12 Deerfield incident.
13 My recollection is that there was a prior
14 occasion where Ms. Caretsky was not going to be
15 available. I was very concerned, as I previously
16 testified. And when I went to the Weston branch it was
17 actually handled by Ms. Kerstetter. That's the best of
18 my recollection. But not Deerfield. I think that was
19 all - the letter by Mr. Garces and possibly Mr. Caputi's
20 involvement.
21 Q Now, during these shows I believe you narrowed
22 them down to six to 12; is that correct?
23 A I'm guessing. I don't want to guess.
24 Q You have no idea how many shows there were?
25 MR. SCHERER: Objection, form. You asked him
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1 not to guess.
2 THE WITNESS: You don't need to rely on my
3 testimony that way. All you need to do is look at
4 the number of letters and the number of fake bank
5 statements. That will tell you exactly how many
6 shows there were.
7 BY MR. CRAIG:
8 Q How long were you in the presence of the TD
9 Bank representatives during these shows; that is, from
10 the point you walked in with an investor, greeted them,
11 until the point you were handed an envelope, you turned
12 around and walked out?
13 A It was very quick, several minutes.
14 Q Two or three minutes?
15 A I don't want to guess. Several minutes.
16 Q And --
17 A Might have been more sometimes, might have been
18 less.
19 Q Can you tell me whether my client was involved
20 in more than 10 shows?
21 A I would be guessing.
22 Q More than 20?
23 A I'd be guessing.
24 Q More than a 1000?
25 A That's crazy.
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1 Q Twenty is not crazy?
2 A Given the extent of this crime, I don't
3 believe - I know you don't care what I believe, but I
4 don't believe she did 20 of these things. I don't
5 believe I did 20 of them.
6 Q Okay.
7 A So --
8 Q Let's assume you did 20 of them with my
9 client.
10 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
11 MR. NURIK: I thought we weren't going to
12 assume anything.
13 MR. SCHERER: Or believe.
14 BY MR. CRAIG:
15 Q I want you to assume you did 20 of them.
16 MR. SCHERER: Objection.
17 MR. CRAIG: Why don't you let me finish my
18 question?
19 MR. SCHERER: You told him you didn't want him
20 to assume.
21 BY MR. CRAIG:
22 Q I'm asking you a hypothetical question.
23 A Go ahead.
24 Q You know what they are?
25 A I do.
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1 Q Okay. Assume, indulge me and Mr. Scherer, that
2 you participated in 20 shows with my client. If, in
3 fact, that's true and they lasted two to three minutes
4 apiece, then you would have spent a total of 60 minutes
5 in the presence of my client; is that a fair statement?
6 A During the actual conduct of criminal activity
7 where the documents changed hands, fair statement.
8 MR. NURIK: Don't assume anything.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming. The question said
10 assume.
11 Assuming what you're saying is correct,
12 assuming that I spent that many minutes, assuming
13 that she did it 20 times, your math is assumingly
14 correct, I assume.
15 BY MR. CRAIG:
16 Q Would it be a fair statement, Mr. Rothstein,
17 that your total contact with Ms. Caretsky over the
18 approximately two years of banking relationship you had
19 with TD was an hour or less?
20 A I'd be guessing.
21 Q Ms. Caretsky never knew you were involved in a
22 Ponzi scheme; isn't that true, sir?
23 A I don't believe she knew that. No, sir.
24 Q She didn't know you were involved in any type
25 of fraud, correct?
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1 A Well, showing fake bank statements to anybody,
2 even if it's just for the purpose of inducing them to do
3 more business with you and facilitating that by placing
4 it with a TD Bank letter, I believe, and I only believe,
5 constitutes fraud.
6 But if you're asking me, was she aware of the
7 investment scam that I was running? To the best of my
8 knowledge, no.
9 Q Let's move on to the alleged payment that you
10 made to her.
11 A Okay.
12 Q You claim that you gave her $25,000 on a single
13 occasion; is that correct?
14 A Between 25 and 30,000, yes.
15 Q Where did the money come from?
16 A Me.
17 Q Where did you keep the money?
18 A In my office.
19 Q What denominations?
20 A Hundreds.
21 Q All hundreds?
22 A Always.
23 Q Where did you get the money from?
24 A Banks, organized crime, clients, law
25 enforcement.
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1 Q What kind of --
2 A All kinds of different places.
3 Q What kind of envelope did you place it in?
4 A It was a large accordion type envelope. We
5 kept them in the office. They had a big accordion on
6 the side. A little bit -- What's that size? 8 1/2 x 11
7 is letter, right?
8 Q Correct.
9 A Bigger than that, legal and accordion.
10 Q And this occurred after a show; is that
11 accurate?
12 A I don't recall whether it occurred after a show
13 or it was a separate visit out there. I seem to recall
14 it either happening -- I don't recall which one it was.
15 Q Didn't you tell me earlier and tell Mr. Scherer
16 last week that the only contact you had with my client
17 was during the course of a show?
18 A No, that's what you said.
19 Q Didn't you tell Mr. Scherer that last week?
20 It's a question.
21 A I thought I testified in the beginning of this
22 that I had contact with her in my office, at Bova, and
23 at the bank. It's very -- you know, I don't recall
24 driving out there for any other reason, so --
25 Q That wasn't my question. My question was,
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1 didn't you tell Mr. Scherer last week that the only
2 contact that you had with my client ever was in the
3 course of the so-called shows?
4 A That sounds correct.
5 Q Are you changing your testimony now?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Well, you made a special visit or an extra
8 visit other than a show to deliver the $25,000. That
9 testimony is different than your testimony last week in
10 that regard, correct?
11 A My statement is --
12 Q Correct?
13 A -- what my statement is. I understand what
14 you're trying to do, but I'm not going down that road.
15 My statement is what my statement is.
16 Q During this visit, whether it was part of a
17 show, after a show, or whatever, you claim you asked my
18 client to step outside for a chat; is that accurate? Is
19 that what happened?
20 A I did ask her to come outside, yes.
21 Q That means you were in the bank when you asked
22 her to step outside?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Where were you in the bank when you asked her
25 that?
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1 A I don't recall.
2 Q I believe you testified that you're aware that
3 there were surveillance cameras in the bank?
4 A Sure.
5 Q Did you know it at the time or you've come
6 to --
7 A I knew it before we did the very first show.
8 Q Had you scouted the bank to see where the
9 cameras were?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Where were they located?
12 A I don't recall.
13 Q Are you aware that there was a camera located
14 behind the tellers' counter that was trained on the
15 front doors?
16 A I don't recall. I assumed every time I went in
17 that bank that every single thing that I did was filmed
18 whether I was walking to the bathroom or walking in and
19 out of the front door or in and out of the conference
20 room or in and out of the back offices.
21 Q If this occurred in the summer of 2009 --
22 A No, no.
23 Q Wait, wait. Let me finish my question.
24 A Go ahead.
25 Q I understand that you're not accepting that
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1 premise. But I'm saying, if it occurred --
2 A Fair enough.
3 Q -- in the summer of 2009 as you have indicated,
4 that is, you asked her to step outside for a chat while
5 you're inside the bank, then you and her stepping
6 outside together would have been captured by the
7 surveillance camera behind the tellers' counter?
8 A I don't think so because my recollection is
9 that I went out -- I didn't walk in there with the
10 envelope. I walked out, retrieved the envelope from my
11 car, and she met me outside. I don't recall walking
12 through the doors together.
13 Q When you walked outside were you alone with
14 her?
15 A Eventually, yes.
16 Q Eventually as you walked away from the
17 building?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Which direction did you walk?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Did you drive there yourself or did you have a
22 driver drive you there?
23 A My recollection is that I had my driver drive
24 me there.
25 Q So this was not part of a show?
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1 A No. There were times when I did a show that I
2 had a driver.
3 Q I'm talking about this particular occasion.
4 A I just don't recall. It's possible that I
5 stayed there, but I don't think so. As I'm sitting here
6 and I'm trying to recollect it, it seems to me that it
7 was not part of a show and it was a very specific visit
8 for a specific purpose.
9 Q Was there anybody around when you handed her
10 the envelope?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q There are no witnesses to you doing that,
13 correct?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q And you indicated that after you handed her the
16 envelope that you told her it was a gift for you taking
17 such good care of us. Is that what you told her?
18 A I believe the words I used with her were
19 something to the effect of, Thanks for taking such good
20 care of us.
21 Q So this was a gift from you?
22 A It was payment for doing something illegal, but
23 I suppose you could consider it whatever you wish to
24 consider it.
25 Q She never asked for this money, did she?
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1 A No. Actually I don't recall -- I recall very
2 few people during the entire course of the Ponzi scheme
3 asking me for payoffs. Mike didn't even ask me for the
4 13 million I gave him.
5 Q She didn't know anything about a Ponzi scheme,
6 did she?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q The only thing she ever asked you for was a
9 $2,500 donation for the Special Olympics, which I
10 believe was July of that year; do you remember that?
11 A Yes. She never asked me for money for doing
12 what she was doing. As a matter of fact, in the
13 beginning when she did it, she wasn't being paid.
14 Q She was doing it for free then?
15 A Initially, yes.
16 Q For the first eight or nine months?
17 A I don't know the time period.
18 Q Doesn't that sound silly?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Far fetched?
21 A No, sir. Not at all. Not at all, not given
22 the context of everything that was going on at that
23 bank. No, sir.
24 Q I believe you mentioned the fact that you were
25 aware that Rosanne adopted a little girl along the way?
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1 A I was.
2 Q How did you become aware of that?
3 A Someone in my office told me, and she also
4 wrote it to me in an e-mail.
5 Q And you thought - you didn't commit to this -
6 that you or your office may have sent her a present. Do
7 you remember that testimony last week?
8 A I do.
9 Q Would you be surprised to find out that you or
10 your office did not send her a present?
11 A I would be shocked.
12 Q Were you also aware that she adopted the little
13 girl, Reese (phonetic), towards the end of June of the
14 summer of 2009?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q That she was on maternity leave the rest of the
17 summer, the next nine weeks and wasn't in the office?
18 A I do recall her being on leave. Yes, sir.
19 Q So you couldn't have had any contact with her
20 during the period of time that you recall her being on
21 leave, correct?
22 A No. I think you can safely rule that out as
23 the time I paid her.
24 Q Let's talk a little bit about Uncle Bill.
25 A Sure.
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1 MR. CRAIG: Before we do this, let's mark
2 another exhibit.
3 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 213 was
4 marked for identification.)
5 BY MR. CRAIG:
6 Q I'm showing you what's been marked as
7 Defendant's Composite 213 for identification. This
8 consists of four pages which are not Bates stamped.
9 A Okay.
10 Q Could you take a look at that document and tell
11 me if you recognize it.
12 A Is Page 3 supposed to have something on it,
13 because it doesn't?
14 Q This is how it was produced to me.
15 A Okay. Yes, I recognize it.
16 Q A waste of paper, right?
17 A I do recognize it.
18 Q What do you recognize it as?
19 A A series of e-mails between Mr. Damson,
20 Mr. Spinosa, and I. Well, actually no. Yes, a series
21 of e-mails between Mr. Damson, Spinosa, and I.
22 Q The last page of which is a so-called lock
23 letter dated August 17, 2009, on RRA letterhead?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Signed by yourself?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Counter-signed purportedly by Mr. Spinosa?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you recognize that as being the first lock
5 letter?
6 A I don't recall what date the first lock letter
7 was.
8 Q Do you have reason to doubt that that was the
9 first lock here?
10 A I don't have a reason to think either way. I
11 don't recall the first date.
12 Q If that was in fact the first lock letter, that
13 would have been the occasion in which you testified that
14 Ms. Caretsky questioned Mr. Spinosa. And I believe you
15 testified you had a discussion with her about, What's
16 the purpose of this lock letter? I don't get it, in
17 view of the fact that you can move the money on-line
18 from Treasury Direct at any time you want. Do you
19 remember that?
20 A I had a conversation with her about lock
21 letters. I don't recall which lock letter I was
22 discussing. But it was our form of lock letter, yes.
23 Q Okay.
24 A I think it was more directed towards the ones
25 that Frank was ultimately drafting.
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1 Q In fact, if this was the first lock letter,
2 this discussion would have occurred a year to nine
3 months after she was on board as a player, correct?
4 A I don't know when the conversation occurred. I
5 don't want to guess.
6 Q Getting the hang of it, huh?
7 A You don't want any guessing. I'm not giving
8 you any guessing.
9 Q Let's talk about Uncle Bill. How is Uncle Bill
10 related to you other than being your uncle? Is he your
11 mother's brother?
12 A My mother's brother.
13 Q Your mother's brother?
14 A My mother's brother.
15 Q How old is Uncle Bill?
16 A Uncle Bill is in his mid 60s.
17 Q Is he originally from South Florida or did he
18 move down here at some time?
19 A From New York.
20 Q When did he move down here?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q Was he married?
23 A He is married right now, yes.
24 Q Was he married during the operative period of
25 time, 2006 or '07 through 2009?
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1 A He was married the entire time, but he may have
2 been separated from time to time.
3 Q Tell me about his background. Did he go to
4 college? What kind of work did he do?
5 A High school. He was in the car business for
6 many years.
7 Q Used car salesmen?
8 A Used car salesman? I suppose, yes, at some
9 point in time he sold used cars. He was the director of
10 leasing for Braman, for all the Braman car dealerships
11 for many years.
12 Q Did he work in the car sales business all the
13 way up to the point in time he came to work for you?
14 A I don't remember if he had jobs in between
15 that. He was always involved in one job or another.
16 But the bulk of the time of his employment was always in
17 some form of the car business.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Except for a time when he owned a night club
20 many years ago in New York.
21 Q A night club like a gentleman's club or --
22 A No, no.
23 Q -- the regular kind?
24 A A regular night club.
25 Q When was it that he came to work for you?
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1 A You'd have to check the financial records. I
2 don't want to guess.
3 Q Do you know the year he came to work for you?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know the circumstances surrounding how
6 it was he came to work for you?
7 A I asked him to come to work for me.
8 Q And at that point in time you asked him to come
9 to work for you, did you have a plan to involve him in
10 your Ponzi scheme?
11 A Nope.
12 Q When he came to work for you what was his job
13 title and what were his job duties?
14 A When he originally came to work for me?
15 Q Correct. How many times did he come to work
16 for you?
17 A It was on and off.
18 Q Did he have another job during this period of
19 time?
20 A He may have. I don't specifically recall.
21 Q During let's say the last year of your Ponzi,
22 what was his title and what were his job duties?
23 A He was some type of director. Director of law
24 office management, director of something. And his job
25 at that point in time was to assist Irene with some
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1 basic bookkeeping stuff, just basically help the law
2 firm keep running.
3 Q Irene Stay was your CFO?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And when was it that Uncle Bill first became
6 involved in your Ponzi scheme on any level of illegal
7 activity?
8 A Now you're getting into all the tentacles.
9 You're including the political stuff, everything else?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I don't recall a specific date.
12 Q What tentacle did he first become involved in?
13 A I'd be guessing.
14 Q When did he first become involved in the Ponzi?
15 A It would have been at the time that money was
16 being moved from account to account and Irene wasn't
17 there.
18 Q Would that be during the time where the
19 majority of your money was at Gilbraltar or TD or --
20 A Gilbraltar.
21 Q Was he actively involved in the Ponzi while the
22 money was at Gilbraltar?
23 A I don't recall specifically.
24 Q Was he involved in the Ponzi while the money
25 was at Gilbraltar?
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1 A I don't recall. It's hard to pinpoint because
2 a lot of what he was doing initially was just doing
3 whatever I asked him to do without questioning me. So I
4 think there came a point in time later on where he
5 realized that what I was doing was illegal and just
6 continued to assist me.
7 Q You emphasized "without questioning you." That
8 was part of his job duty, to just do as you say?
9 A No. That's just the way he was.
10 Q He's a loyal soldier?
11 A Yeah. He was a good soldier. Yes, sir.
12 Q You wouldn't have expected him to act as a
13 rogue employee, so to speak?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q It would have shocked you for him to do
16 something that you either told him not to do or you
17 disapproved of?
18 A It wouldn't have shocked me if he had said
19 something to me about what I was doing, but he didn't.
20 Q Did you keep him on a short leash?
21 A No. There was no such thing as a short leash
22 with Bill.
23 Q Did he have access to money?
24 A I'm certain that he did, yes.
25 Q Large sums of money?
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1 A When you say access, do you mean access to our
2 law firm's money or access to --
3 Q Strike that. I'll get back to that in a
4 second.
5 A Okay.
6 Q What was his salary or what was his wage?
7 A I don't recall. I think we were paying him
8 between a hundred and $150,000 a year.
9 Q Straight salary, no end of the year bonus,
10 commission?
11 A I may have given him a bonus. The records will
12 speak to what I gave him exactly.
13 Q You have spoken on numerous occasions about
14 your stash or stashes; one in your office, one in your
15 credenza?
16 A My credenza was in my office, yes.
17 Q Did you have a credenza at home with a stash in
18 it?
19 A I didn't keep very much cash at home relatively
20 speaking.
21 Q That was your stash, correct?
22 A Which one?
23 Q The one in your credenza in the office.
24 A That was, for lack of a better term, Ponzi
25 money.
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1 Q Was it a community stash? Did more people than
2 you have access to it?
3 A No.
4 Q You're making a face like that's a ridiculous
5 question.
6 A Given the way - I had some partners that spent
7 money much like I did, well not close to what I did, but
8 in the same vein as I did, and giving them access to
9 that much cash probably would not have been a good idea.
10 Q In addition to your partners, Bill Brock didn't
11 have access to your stash either, did he?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q So, if he ever gave money or claims to have
14 given money to Ms. Caretsky, that would have come from
15 someplace else other than your stash, correct?
16 A He would have taken it from -- yeah, it would
17 have come from someplace else.
18 Q And you've already told us the only money
19 you're aware of Ms. Caretsky receiving in connection
20 with your illegal activity in the Ponzi scheme was the
21 $25,000 on that one occasion?
22 A It was between 25 and $30,000 on one occasion.
23 She never took anything else from me. No, sir.
24 Q And she never took anything else on your behalf
25 to your knowledge, correct?
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1 A To my knowledge, no.
2 Q And if Bill had given her a large sum of cash,
3 you would have known about it, wouldn't you?
4 A No, I wouldn't have known. Bill was always
5 looking out for me and always looking out for the law
6 firm and looking out for its best interest even on the
7 illegal stuff.
8 So is it possible that he greased some wheels
9 somewhere? Sure. But the truth is I don't know one way
10 or the other.
11 Q Let's talk about the shows some more.
12 A Okay.
13 Q I believe you testified, and I may be wrong
14 about this, that the way that you could tell whether any
15 of the account letters, the cover letters that had the
16 account information that accompanied the account balance
17 statements, were fraudulent or had been created by you
18 or on your behalf, was if they had account balances in
19 the letter itself; is that a fair statement?
20 A That's one of the ways.
21 Q What was the other way?
22 A We discussed the other day -- I don't know
23 which day it was. We discussed the other day that if
24 you look at the e-mail traffic surrounding the
25 particular letter, you can see the ones that Deb created
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1 for me because you'll see an e-mail from me to Deb
2 generally giving her the contents. Then you'll see Deb
3 creating the whole scan font thing with it, and then her
4 sending it back to me, and then me forwarding it out to
5 whoever I needed to send it to. That's one of the other
6 ways.
7 Q Did you ever fraudulently create a so-called
8 lock letter?
9 A I may have, sure. Yeah. Mr. Spinosa was -- As
10 a matter of fact, I do recall an instance, and if you
11 depose Ms. Villages she'll attest to this, I do recall
12 an instance when I was on the speakerphone with
13 Mr. Spinosa and I needed a lock letter. He was not
14 available and he told me to just sign his name.
15 Q Now, would it be a fair statement that since
16 you weren't present at the time when any of the real
17 account balances were printed up in connection with
18 these shows, you had no idea as you sit here today who
19 actually went into the TD Bank computer and printed them
20 up?
21 A I have no idea who went in there.
22 Q Prior to the shows, Uncle Bill's job was to get
23 there before you did with an envelope with the fake
24 account balance and ensure that the fake account balance
25 was switched out with the real account balance
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1 underneath the cover letter, correct?
2 A He was the deliveryman, yes.
3 Q Now, I believe you've already testified that as
4 part of this process that the bank representative,
5 whether it be Ms. Caretsky or Ms. Kerstetter, I believe
6 you've indicated that both of them were involved, they
7 would print up a letter, the standard account balance
8 letter, sign it indicating the existence of the account,
9 and initially underneath that place in the envelope the
10 real account balance statement, correct?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q They would not print up the real account
13 balance?
14 A There was a lot to that question. Part of what
15 you said was inaccurate.
16 Q What part of what I asked you was inaccurate?
17 A My understanding is that they printed up the
18 original letter. It was a form that we created that we
19 asked them to keep as a form. That they would print up
20 the balance statements, the real ones. They would keep
21 them. But nothing would be put in the TD envelope until
22 Bill arrived with the fake bank statements.
23 Q Do you recall last week giving testimony
24 inconsistent with that?
25 A If you show me my testimony maybe it will
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1 refresh my recollection.
2 Q Let me ask you this question and see if this
3 refreshes your recollection. Do you recall in an answer
4 to one of Mr. Scherer's questions or it could have been
5 Mr. Lichtman's questions that the TD Bank
6 representative, whether it be Ms. Caretsky or somebody
7 else as part of this show process, when they printed up
8 the real account balance statements that go along with
9 the cover letter they would put both of them inside an
10 envelope?
11 A I never testified to that.
12 Q That did not occur?
13 A I never testified to that. I never said they
14 put the fake bank statements in and the real bank
15 statements in the same envelope. No, sir.
16 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 214 was
17 marked for identification.)
18 BY MR. CRAIG:
19 Q Let me show you what's been marked as
20 Defendant's Exhibit 214 for identification. For the
21 record, this is an e-mail I guess starting on
22 September 15, 2009, at 9:02 a.m. It's previously been
23 marked as Exhibit 21 to Caretsky's deposition on
24 January 14, 2011.
25 Could you take a look at this e-mail and tell
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1 me whether you recognize it.
2 A I do.
3 Q And how do you recognize it?
4 A I remember receiving it and responding.
5 Q The initial e-mail as part of this chain you
6 received was from Mr. Szafranski?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Also known as Mikey?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And what did this have to do with?
11 A Ira wanted to go to TD Bank, and I was telling
12 him if Mike has explained the process, because Ira was
13 very lovingly -- he was a motor-mouth and I did not want
14 him to engage Rosanne in significant conversation in the
15 middle of the bank. I did not want to put her in a
16 difficult position, nor did I want her to realize that
17 Mr. Sochet was an investor and not a client.
18 Q That was the reason for you indicating in the
19 e-mail -- or Mike indicating in the e-mail to me
20 Mr. Sochet, "Okay. No problem. Have you explained the
21 process. No freaking Rosanne out. Love ya."
22 A No, no. That's me --
23 Q I stand corrected.
24 A -- to Mike, not Mr. Sochet.
25 Q The top one is from you to Mike. And you are
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1 indicating that you don't want to freak Rosanne out?
2 A Yes.
3 Q That seems a little nonsensical in view of the
4 fact that at that point in time, September 2009,
5 according to you, Rosanne had been on board and been a
6 player for about a year. Why would she be freaked out
7 by anything?
8 A No, no. You don't understand. Rosanne
9 believed that the phony bank statements that she was
10 providing to the people I walked into the bank with was
11 solely for the purpose of me convincing these people
12 that there was more money in the bank than there was so
13 that I could get future business from them.
14 She did not know what was going on as far as
15 the investment scam and the like. And I had a
16 significant concern that Mr. Sochet, who I lovingly
17 referred to as a motor-mouth might engage her in all
18 kinds of conversation other than what we were
19 specifically going to the bank for. So I had Mike reel
20 him in.
21 MR. CRAIG: Mr. Scherer, this is an e-mail that
22 I know has a Bates stamp. I could not find a copy
23 with a Bates stamp. I know it's previously been
24 marked as an exhibit to the deposition. And it was
25 produced as part of the Szafranski Onyx Capital
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1 production without a Bates number.
2 MR. SCHERER: Do you have a copy?
3 MR. CRAIG: Yes. I have lots of copies. It's
4 being marked as Exhibit 215.
5 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 215 was
6 marked for identification.)
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 BY MR. CRAIG:
9 Q Could you take a look at that, please,
10 Mr. Rothstein, and tell us whether you can identify it
11 or recognize it.
12 A I've never seen this before.
13 Q Do you doubt its authenticity?
14 A I don't doubt it one way or the other. I've
15 never seen it before.
16 Q Could you read it out loud, please?
17 A From Michael Szafranski, sent Thursday,
18 September 17, 2009, at 9:35 a.m., to Mel E. Lifshitz.
19 Subject: Second 10.
20 "Apparently I am verifying the other 10mm
21 today. I have instructed them to have the correct
22 docs. I am going to the bank today and spoke to Scott
23 regarding your request. He is a bit concerned about his
24 constant activity at the bank, a constant letters are
25 being viewed by the bank with some suspicion, so we are
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1 figuring out a way to get it done. Michael Szafranski,
2 President, Onyx Capital Management", with his address.
3 Q Is that consistent with what was going on at
4 the time?
5 A I don't understand your question.
6 Q Okay. That was a bad question. I'll give you
7 that.
8 Is the verbiage that you just read into the
9 record consistent with the concerns that you had about
10 the bank being suspicious of your activities on or about
11 September 17th of 2009?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Did you ever have any concern in September of
14 2009 or any other time that the bank was becoming
15 suspicious of your activities?
16 A No, sir. That was a sham we set up to get
17 people to stop asking for bank visits.
18 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 216 was
19 marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. CRAIG:
21 Q Showing you what I'm going to mark as
22 Defendant's Exhibit Composite 216 for identification
23 consisting of two pages, Bates Trustees/Spinosa 00422
24 and 423. It's an e-mail exchange between you and
25 Mr. Lifshitz dated September 17, 2009.
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1 Do you recall this e-mail exchange?
2 A Give me one second to read it.
3 I do recognize this and recall except for this
4 Grubman, Rita thing across the top. I don't know who
5 that is.
6 Q Ignoring the Grubman, Rita up top --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- do you otherwise recognize this e-mail
9 exchange?
10 A I do.
11 Q I guess the one at the bottom preceded the one
12 at the top. Could you read your e-mail to Mr. Lifshitz
13 at the bottom of that page?
14 A "Looks like I pulled it off. Spinosa will do
15 the letter. Meeting with him in the morning to discuss
16 and answer his questions. Also call the bank manager,
17 Rosanne to see if she would do it. She will let me know
18 later today if she is comfortable with it after I just
19 came in and got statements, but I think she will."
20 Next paragraph. "Please wire the 3m in the
21 morning so I can get the rest of the first 10
22 distributed tomorrow. I don't need the second 10m until
23 late Monday. So we have tomorrow and most of the day
24 Monday... So long as it hits by 5 p.m. I should be
25 good. If you need until Tuesday I can pull it off if
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1 you can get me half, 5m Monday afternoon, so I can
2 spread some bucks around to the masses. Keep me
3 posted. Love ya. Call me when you can. Scottito."
4 Q Mr. Lifshitz responds, "Awesome, buddy.
5 Thanks. Really appreciate it. Just landed and headed
6 back home, but with people. Will call you later."
7 A Yes.
8 Q The second line of your e-mail to Mr. Lifshitz
9 after indicating that it looks like you pulled it off.
10 Spinosa will do the letter. You indicate, Also called
11 bank manager, Rosanne, to see if she will do it. She
12 will let me know later today if she's comfortable with
13 it after I just came in and got statements, but I think
14 she will.
15 What are you referring to her, you thinking
16 that she will do?
17 A I have no idea. I'd need to see the e-mail
18 traffic before this and after it. But as far as calling
19 her to see if she would do something, that's a lie.
20 Q You never talked to her on the phone in
21 connection --
22 A About something connected to Mel E. Lifshitz,
23 no, sir.
24 Q Okay. Let me see if I can help you out in that
25 regard.
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1 A Thank you.
2 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 217 was
3 marked for identification.)
4 BY MR. CRAIG:
5 Q Showing you what's been marked Defendant's
6 Exhibit 217 for identification. It's a two-page e-mail
7 that's been previously marked as Exhibit 22 to
8 Caretsky's January 14, 2011 deposition marked as an
9 exhibit by the Plaintiffs. Back page is a September 17,
10 2009 account letter which includes a $60 million
11 balance. And there is an e-mail exchange between
12 yourself and I believe Debra Villegas and also from
13 Mr. Spinosa to you.
14 Do you recognize these documents?
15 A I do.
16 Q What are they?
17 A The back letter is a fraudulent letter that we
18 created in my office. The top section is a fraudulent
19 e-mail sequence that we created to add authenticity to
20 the fraudulent letter.
21 Q Does that help refresh your recollection as to
22 what you were referring to in Exhibit 216 regarding
23 calling Rosanne to see if she would do it?
24 A It does.
25 Q That is, create a false account letter with a
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1 balance?
2 A No, no. That's wrong.
3 Q How is that wrong?
4 A Because Rosanne was not involved in creating
5 any false account letters that contained balances.
6 Q Then I asked you a bad question or that was not
7 the intent of my question.
8 A Okay. That's what the question was.
9 Q I don't doubt that for a second.
10 A Go ahead. It's getting late. Go ahead.
11 Q The reference you have to see if Rosanne would
12 do it, that refers to providing a letter referencing an
13 account. Fair enough?
14 A Yes. What was occurring was, this is more of
15 our sham trying to get investors to stop having us make
16 so many bank visits. The whole Rosanne, to see if she
17 would do it, that whole kind of thing is all a lie, to
18 stop Mel and others from regularly asking us to do bank
19 visits.
20 I then tell Mel, looks like we pulled it off.
21 And this is what we pulled off. But Ms. Caretsky had
22 nothing to do with this particular letter.
23 Q And the letter you're referring to is the
24 second page of Exhibit 217?
25 A That's correct.
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1 Q Which is the account letter that contains a 60
2 million dollar balance, which was created by you or on
3 your behalf in your office?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q That would have been created by Mr. Corte or
6 Mr. Renie?
7 A No, that would have been created by
8 Ms. Villegas.
9 Q Based upon a computer program set up by either
10 Mr. Corte or Mr. Renie or could she have done that
11 without their help?
12 A She probably could have done it without their
13 help. I have no recollection one way or the other.
14 Q By the way, who are Mr. Corte and Mr. Renie?
15 A Mr. Renie was the director of information
16 technology at the law firm; and Mr. Corte was the
17 assistant director.
18 Q Was he already an employee for some time before
19 he got involved in creating the false TD website and
20 false documents?
21 A They had been employed for some time before,
22 yes.
23 Q And were you the one that initially approached
24 them about becoming involved in your illegal activity?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Tell me about Mr. Corte? Did you hire him
2 specifically to come in and assist Mr. Renie in creating
3 a false TD Website?
4 A No, they weren't hired specifically for the TD
5 thing. They were actually hired to really do
6 information technology work for us. Somebody referred
7 him both to us at separate points in time.
8 Mr. Corte's main role in the Ponzi scheme was
9 to create the more sophisticated, like the web page, the
10 fake TD web page. The updates and the like to the
11 website, that kind of stuff was done by Mr. Renie. So
12 although their duties interchanged, there was a
13 particular piece of software we needed to use to create
14 the fake website and Mr. Corte was far better versed at
15 using that software than Mr. Renie was.
16 Q How long did you know Mr. Caputi before he
17 became involved in your illegal activity?
18 A 15, 20 years.
19 Q You were business partners with him?
20 A That was during and after the illegal activity.
21 Q I believe during the first day of your
22 testimony you referenced either also being involved with
23 check kiting or money laundering with him in the past;
24 is that correct?
25 A Yes, um-hmm.
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1 Q Was he indebted to you at the time that he
2 became involved in your Ponzi scheme?
3 A I don't know if he was indebted to me. I don't
4 think I made Steve feel like he was indebted to me for
5 anything. We always had a mutually beneficial
6 relationship.
7 Q Would that be in the legal context or the
8 illegal context or both?
9 A Both, both.
10 Q Was he intimidated by you?
11 A No.
12 Q Why did you need him involved?
13 A Say it again.
14 Q Why did you need to involve Mr. Caputi in your
15 Ponzi scheme?
16 A I needed people to play certain roles and I
17 went to the people that I know were willing to do just
18 about anything for money.
19 Q Well, what specifically was his role?
20 A Pretend to be a banker, pretend to be a
21 Plaintiff.
22 Q Let's talk about --
23 A That's in the direct Ponzi, not the tentacles,
24 not the check kiting and not the thing with Silverseas.
25 Q Let's talk about the pretend to be a banker
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1 part; why did you need Mr. Caputi to pretend to be a
2 banker?
3 A Certain investors wanted to meet a banker at TD
4 Bank , to be able to speak directly with the banker.
5 Caputi was the person I solicited to do that.
6 Q And this was after Ms. Caretsky was already on
7 board and a player, in your mind?
8 A I'd be guessing as to the time frame.
9 Q Well, if that was so, you still wanted to hire
10 Mr. Caputi even she was on board at the time?
11 A I had -- I only involved Ms. Caretsky to the
12 extent of taking the fake bank statements, putting them
13 with her real letter, and handing it to me or my
14 investor. That is the full extent of her involvement.
15 Q How did that differ from Mr. Caputi's
16 involvement?
17 A Mr. Caputi answered extensive questions
18 regarding banking from investors, completely different,
19 completely different level.
20 Q Are you aware that's diametrically opposed to
21 his deposition testimony in this case and his sworn
22 testimony in the trial in the Coquina case?
23 A Are you asking me if that would surprise me?
24 Q No, I'm asking you are you aware of it?
25 A I'm not aware of it and it wouldn't surprise
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1 me.
2 Q Do you have a specific recollection as you sit
3 here today of any of those bank visits involving
4 Mr. Caputi?
5 A Sorry, say the question again.
6 Q Do you have an independent recollection as you
7 sit here today of any of those bank visits involving
8 Mr. Caputi?
9 A I recall sitting with Mr. Caputi in the Weston
10 branch and discussing accounts with him, but I can't
11 picture who's asking the questions.
12 Q Okay.
13 A But I remember him answering questions about
14 our account balances.
15 Q Do you remember you telling him, Steve, this is
16 what I want you to do, I want you to go home and put a
17 suit on and I want you to meet me at the TD Bank at a
18 certain time, I want you to go inside, there will be an
19 individual, Uncle Bill, who's going to hand you an
20 envelope and a business card. I want you to go sit down
21 in the conference room. I'm going to come in with an
22 investor and I'm going to ask questions and all I want
23 you to do is follow my lead.
24 Do you recall that happening; you giving him
25 those instructions?
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1 A It sounds incomplete to me.
2 Q What part of it is incomplete?
3 A Because I had him actually verify bank balances
4 during the meeting that I can recall speaking to him.
5 And I also recall - and I may have been -- Well, I don't
6 know if it was Jack Simony or not, whoever the investor
7 was that was in the bank with us, they specifically
8 talked to him.
9 And I specifically recall at some point in time
10 the conversation to me appearing to go too long. I
11 said, okay, we got to go, as it was putting Caputi in a
12 difficult spot. It wasn't near the level of
13 participation that I had him do when he did the whole
14 Plaintiffs, playing the Plaintiff, but it was more than
15 simply handing an envelope.
16 Q According to you, when Ms. Caretsky was, who
17 you I believe described as an integral part - piece to
18 the survival of your Ponzi scheme, she didn't just hand
19 an envelope, as you allege, she handed an envelope that
20 contained a fake account balance that she put in there;
21 correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q If she was willing to do that, it doesn't make
24 sense why she wasn't willing to sit in the conference
25 room and tell an investor that there was 60 million
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1 dollars in an account that didn't exist. That seems
2 nonsensical; doesn't it?
3 A No, not at all. You don't understand the
4 dynamics involved in a fraud of this magnitude. When
5 you involve people -- if you look at everyone I
6 involved, okay, there are a tremendous number of people
7 who were involved in tiny little pieces that were
8 integral to the Ponzi survival, but it was still just a
9 tiny little piece, something that they had to do,
10 whether it be changing the stock ticker symbol on the TD
11 website, changing one number in a balance, forging a
12 signature, some people simply created plaintiffs' and
13 defendants' names. All kinds of different players
14 involved here. The answer to your question is, no, it's
15 not nonsensical at all.
16 You only involve people to a limited extent as
17 you require of that particular purpose, at least that
18 was my rule of thumb.
19 Q Your answer is non responsive and I'm moving to
20 strike it.
21 A Can we take five minutes?
22 Q Sure.
23 (Thereupon, a short break was taken.)
24 BY MR. CRAIG:
25 Q Back on the record.
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1 I want to clarify a couple of matters that you
2 testified about earlier during my examination. I just
3 asked you during the shows when the envelope was
4 handed -- strike that.
5 Who did Ms. Caretsky or Ms. Kerstetter or
6 Mr. Mejia or Mr. Garces hand the envelope to during the
7 show; you or your client/investor?
8 A Either one.
9 Q You specifically recall as you sit here today
10 the envelope being handed to directly to the
11 client/investor on one or more occasions?
12 A I don't have a specific recollection one way or
13 the other. It was either me or them.
14 Q So, as you sit here today, you don't ever
15 recall it being handed to the investor/client?
16 A I don't have a specific recollection one way or
17 the other.
18 Q Wouldn't your answer to that question more
19 appropriately be, I don't remember or I don't know?
20 A I don't have a specific recollection. I
21 don't. That's -- I don't have a specific recollection.
22 Q Okay.
23 A It's not that I don't know, I knew at some
24 point in time, I just don't recall at this moment.
25 Q Didn't you initially answer either/or?
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1 MR. SCHERER: Objection, form.
2 A To me either/or, it had to have gotten into one
3 of our hands somehow. Ultimately the investor got it.
4 It either went directly from Ms. Caretsky or whoever was
5 giving it to the investor or to me. You're asking me if
6 I have a specific recollection of it. You're asking me
7 if I know for certain. I don't know which one they
8 handed it to. I just don't remember.
9 Q Did you just tell us that you paid Caputi to
10 pose as a TD Bank representative? Not in answer to my
11 last question, right before the break.
12 A That I paid him? I'm not sure -- in my mind I
13 always paid Caputi because I was always giving him
14 money. Yes, he was paid to do whatever it was -- as a
15 matter of fact, I think there may be checks to him right
16 around the time that he was doing this. You have to
17 take a look at the bank records to see.
18 Q Are you aware of the fact that he testified in
19 deposition in this case and in the trial in the Coquina
20 case that you in fact did not pay him --
21 A Well --
22 Q -- to pose as a TD Bank representative and a
23 Plaintiff in your Ponzi scheme?
24 A That he just did it because he loved me?
25 Q No. As I recall he said when he questioned you
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1 about it you responded by saying, just shut up and do
2 it.
3 A First of all, Steve --
4 Q Does that sound familiar?
5 A No. Steve wouldn't have taken that answer from
6 me. Other people may have taken that answer from me,
7 but not Steve. You apparently don't know Steve well
8 enough to understand how that dialogue would have
9 occurred.
10 Mr. Caputi and I had a very long-standing
11 business relationship. If he needed something from me,
12 whether it was legal or illegal, I took care of it. If
13 I needed something from him legal or illegal, he would
14 take care of it. No more complicated than that.
15 Q I think I'm about finished. I do have at least
16 one or two more questions. This is my last question.
17 After having a total of no more than an hour,
18 hour and a half total contact - face-to-face contact
19 with my client Ms. Caretsky, over the course of two
20 years, you would have a jury believe and perhaps others
21 believe that Rosanne would sacrifice her job, her career
22 her family, her newly adopted daughter, her freedom, her
23 life for a couple of lunches, a $2,500 campaign
24 contribution - or excuse me, contribution to Special
25 Olympics, a baby gift that you never gave her, and
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1 $25,000 in cash she never asked for; assuming that ever
2 happened; is that what you want a jury to believe?
3 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
4 A Yes. And I don't believe that she ever
5 perceived that type of risk from this. I believe she
6 was doing what she believed she had to do at that point
7 in time based upon my relationship with TD Bank.
8 MR. CRAIG: Thank you. I have nothing further
9 at this time.
10 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. GELBER:
12 Q I'm Dan Gelber, Mr. Rothstein. How are you?
13 A All right, sir.
14 MR. GELBER: Mr. Nurik, these are the
15 exhibits. I'm going to give him parts of these. I
16 don't have a separate -- I'm going to give him his
17 own, but they are also in there.
18 BY MR. GELBER:
19 Q Mr. Rothstein, my understanding is that you've
20 worked with the Trustee as part of your cooperation; is
21 that right?
22 A I was ordered to talk to him. I don't know if
23 you consider -- my understanding of Rule 35 is that the
24 civil stuff doesn't come in, so --
25 Q I don't mean cooperation. You've been little C
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1 cooperating, you've been helping him make a case;
2 correct?
3 A Yes. Chuck would be the little C.
4 Q How many times have you met with him and how
5 many hours? It's been a lot?
6 A I met with them over three days, it was really
7 more like two and a half days.
8 Q When was that?
9 A In August.
10 Q Now, in their complaint, on Paragraph 36 of the
11 Trustee's Complaint it says: TD Bank then generated a
12 screen shot of RRA's account balance in a specific
13 account, prepared a cover letter verifying and enclosing
14 the account balance, deposited the cover letter and the
15 screen shot into an envelope which was furnished to
16 Rothstein in the presence of one or more investors.
17 That's not accurate, is it?
18 A Not accurate.
19 Q That's an absolute falsehood that's in their
20 complaint, right?
21 A Well, it's not absolutely false. It's just
22 missing pieces.
23 Q A critical piece of your Ponzi scheme and your
24 fraud was getting my client Ms. Caretsky, according to
25 you, to take these invoices that you created at
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1 Rothstein headquarters and -- not invoices, these
2 accounts statements, and put them in a letter, a real
3 letter at the bank. That was a critical piece, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And they got that critical piece absolutely
6 wrong in the Trustee's complaint, correct?
7 A It's not perfectly correct, no, sir.
8 Q Well, perfectly correct might be a spelling
9 error or a grammar error. They have TD Bank creating
10 the false account statements and you created the false
11 account statements; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q That's not a little error. That's a major
14 error, correct?
15 A That is a significant misstatement as to what
16 occurred. It doesn't contain the critical part. I
17 don't know -- I can't explain it any further than that
18 because I wasn't part of drafting that complaint.
19 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 218 was
20 marked for identification.)
21 BY MR. GELBER:
22 Q Let's go to what these investor meetings or
23 what you and other people have called the shows. And at
24 first I'm going to ask you to look at 218.
25 MR. GELBER: And you all have that package
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1 there. 218 is going to be the October 29th
2 meeting.
3 BY MR. GELBER:
4 Q Okay. This is the meeting, and it's already
5 been presented to you, on October 29th. This was the
6 letter. And it's been said that this might have been
7 the first investor meeting you had at TD Bank, right?
8 A That's -- we're guessing.
9 Q Yeah. And if you look at the second page,
10 Jennifer Kerstetter says to Brock and copies it to
11 Rosanne, Here is a rundown of the accounts and available
12 balances, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And then attached are the actual balances that
15 are put together with the amounts on them?
16 A The first page looks like the actual account
17 balances. The subsequent page -- Well, one is almost
18 blank, and then the next ones are the fake statements.
19 Q Right. First of all, at this point Jennifer
20 Kerstetter is asking them to put actual balances
21 together because someone attaches the actual, not the
22 fake balances, right?
23 A I don't know what she's asking. I wasn't
24 there.
25 Q Well, the words are here: Here's a rundown of
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1 the accounts and available balances. And attached to it
2 are the available balances. There's nothing fake about
3 those balances, is there?
4 A I don't know what the balances were, but they
5 seem to be correct. What I don't have is Bill's e-mail
6 to her, so I don't know what anyone was asking for or
7 whether she just provided them. I don't know one way or
8 the other.
9 Q First of all, if Jennifer Kerstetter was
10 involved, why would she send them an e-mail with the
11 actual account balances? If she knew she was going to
12 provide fake balances later that day or Rosanne was
13 going to be presenting fake balances, why would she send
14 them the actual balances?
15 A Do you want me to go ahead and speculate
16 because that's the only way I can answer that? You're
17 asking me why, what she's thinking.
18 Q This was your Ponzi scheme. This was one of
19 your operators. Tell me why Jennifer Kerstetter is
20 telling Rosanne to prepare account statements with
21 actual real balances rather than fake ones?
22 A I don't know what anyone is saying to anyone
23 else. I'm asking, if you want me to give you my
24 opinion, I will. But --
25 Q Let me ask you this way: Do you think that
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1 putting the actual balances in the letter, in that
2 e-mail, is consistent with actually doing it the right
3 way and not the way that you might have wanted them to
4 do it?
5 A No. It's actually consistent with the way I
6 was under the impression they were doing it the whole
7 time, which was they were always printing the actual
8 account balances for their own internal plausible
9 deniability. The second thing is, as I've testified
10 over and over again, I don't know specifically what date
11 Ms. Kerstetter became involved.
12 Q So, her putting the actual balances in an
13 e-mail could either be evidence of innocent conduct or
14 evidence of criminal participation depending when she
15 was involved?
16 A I can't answer that one way or the other. I
17 don't know. I'd be guessing.
18 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 219 was
19 marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. GELBER:
21 Q On December 10th, this is the second one and
22 it's marked 219, on this one you have Bill Brock on the
23 second page asking Rosanne Caretsky to print up account
24 numbers and she lists the account numbers. And then she
25 says: I'm not going to be in the office. What accounts
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1 do you want printed out.
2 That actually came before it. And then
3 actually early on on the third page it's Bill Brock
4 saying: I need those DOS reports again. Each account
5 on a separate page.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you remember all this? Does this all look
8 familiar to you?
9 A No. But this sounds familiar to -- it looks
10 like what we did on an as needed basis.
11 Q Now, it makes no sense --
12 A But I have seen this e-mail string before.
13 Q Makes no sense for Bill Brock to tell Rosanne
14 Caretsky they're going to need those DOS reports again
15 on a separate page and use of your conference room if he
16 knows she's not going to use the DOS reports she prints
17 up, right?
18 A No. It makes perfect sense to me.
19 Q Tell me why it makes perfect sense. I do want
20 to know.
21 A Because we were in the habit of whenever we
22 sent out e-mails, all of us, to make sure that every
23 e-mail comported with what would be, especially with the
24 bank, comported with what we were attempting to appear
25 to be doing.
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1 Q So, what your testimony is, on the next page it
2 says: What accounts do you want printed out? The
3 e-mail is full of these participants looking like
4 they're doing something totally innocent. Is that what
5 you said the scheme was intending to do?
6 A I'd be guessing as to what all these people
7 were trying to do. I can only testify factually from
8 what I understand occurred or at least know occurred at
9 the bank.
10 Q I understand.
11 A I didn't instruct these people to just write
12 e-mails like this. Okay? But I did on more than one
13 occasion tell certain people, Be careful what you put in
14 e-mails.
15 Q And it's your guess that --
16 A I can't imagine -- Just let me finish. I can't
17 imagine how Bill would get any of this from these people
18 without asking for these statements. I don't know what
19 he would write unless he was going to write something
20 about a crime about to be committed.
21 Q It's interesting, in this actual e-mail he
22 could have just listed the ones he wanted if he just
23 wanted to look like he was covering up or creating a
24 false trail, but he actually said, I need them each on a
25 separate page.
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1 So, is it your testimony that Bill is trying to
2 look like he's asking for something honest even though
3 something dishonest is going on?
4 A It's my testimony that he's trying to provide
5 backup documentation to what we ultimately are going to
6 provide to an investor, which is statements on separate
7 pages. We want everything to match.
8 Q But you would agree with me that at no point
9 were any of those actual account statements going to be
10 put in with the letter in the envelope, right?
11 A No. It's my understanding that they took those
12 and placed them along with a copy of the letter in some
13 folder some place.
14 Q We'll get to that in a second. But the Ponzi
15 scheme you were running, you had absolutely no use for
16 accurate real account statements?
17 A Unless we were looking for what the real
18 balances were, and that makes no sense because I could
19 have pulled them up on the screens.
20 Q You could have pulled them up at Rothstein
21 headquarters and you could print up the ones you wanted
22 at Rothstein headquarters. You had absolutely no need
23 for Rosanne Caretsky or Kerstetter or anyone else over
24 at TD Bank to print up an actual balance at any time,
25 you never needed it?
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1 A What you're saying begs the question because
2 they would also know that I could get these balances in
3 my office. So why bother providing this to me at all.
4 If they don't know what's going on, why not simply send
5 me back an e-mail saying, Why don't you just print the
6 screen shots up.
7 Q Well, we'll talk about that in a moment. But
8 the truth of the matter is, in every one of these -- in
9 fact, let's go to the December 17 one.
10 MR. GELBER: What is the number on it?
11 MR. RABIN: 220.
12 THE WITNESS: Just also in the context of the
13 e-mail, you know, I don't recall -- I know that I
14 saw it after the Ponzi scheme exploded. But if I
15 saw Bill calling this "the show" repeatedly, I
16 probably would have told him, Let's stop calling it
17 that because that doesn't match the whole -- Let's
18 try to keep the e-mail -- you know, we don't know
19 who's reading e-mails at a bank. Let's try to keep
20 the e-mail businesslike.
21 (Whereupon, Caretsky's Exhibit No. 220 was
22 marked for identification.)
23 BY MR. GELBER:
24 Q 220, which is the December 17 investor
25 meeting. In fact, there's a string of e-mails before it
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1 where they're not just talking to Rosanne, I think
2 they're talking to folks at the bank, Jamie Bond, Jose
3 Garces, other people who aren't part, according to your
4 previous testimony, of your conspiracy, right?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And, in fact, some of those people actually
7 used in the investor meetings, right?
8 A I don't know what you mean, "used."
9 Q Well, they actually were people who had letters
10 created that they wrote that you put account statements
11 in. There were other people other than --
12 A I never put account statements in any of these
13 that I recall.
14 Q People who worked for you did that were part of
15 this conspiracy, right?
16 A I can't tell you for certain, because I was not
17 there, who actually placed the document in with the
18 letter. I wasn't there.
19 Q But you agree with me it was important that
20 whoever that person was, according to you, that they
21 were prepared to go along with the conspiracy, whatever
22 part of it they knew?
23 A All they had to do was ultimately place the
24 fake bank statement in the envelope and hand it to me or
25 allow someone else possession of the envelope, allow
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1 them to place the fake bank statements in and then take
2 it from that person and still hand it to me. So, no
3 matter which way you slice it, they were doing something
4 they should not have been doing.
5 Q Matthew Brennan, later in '09 -- you said you
6 didn't know who that person was.
7 A As I sit here today I can't remember who he is.
8 Q He's actually one of the people that handed
9 you, or was in the vicinity, handed you an account
10 statement that was fabricated by your office. You have
11 no idea who he is?
12 A I don't know what you mean, "in the vicinity."
13 Q Well, during his deposition Matthew Brennan
14 said he actually was part of one of these investor
15 meetings. Mr. Brock came to him, and he put an account
16 statement in a letter and handed it to you to an
17 investor -- handed it to you or handed it to an
18 investor.
19 A Mr. Brennan said he put the statements in
20 there?
21 Q Mr. Brennan.
22 A I didn't know he was involved.
23 Q Mr. Garces did the same thing, didn't he?
24 A You're telling me that they placed the fake
25 bank statements in there?
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1 Q What I'm telling you is that you relied on a
2 lot of people to commit this fraud, but apparently you
3 relied on some people who weren't in, as they say, the
4 circle of trust. People who had nothing to do with what
5 you've said. They didn't receive bribes. They actually
6 were receiving some of these account statements and they
7 were the ones that were providing them to you and
8 investors.
9 A If they were putting the fake bank statements
10 in there, then they were involved at some level without
11 my knowledge.
12 Q Is that possible? Are you saying that
13 Mr. Brock and others were involving people other than
14 Ms. Caretsky and Ms. Kerstetter without you knowing it?
15 A To my knowledge, no. But in viewing e-mails
16 all this time between people that I didn't see prior to
17 the explosion of the Ponzi scheme, there apparently were
18 many things going on I didn't know about.
19 I've never heard that Mr. Brock involved
20 someone else. Is it possible? If you're telling me
21 that these people actually put the fake bank statements
22 in there --
23 Q Actually, what I'm telling you is that they
24 were -- I don't think that any of the TD Bank officers
25 put fake bank statements. What I think happened is I
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1 think your guy did a substitution and that's why --
2 A In their presence?
3 Q Without them knowing it. Because by the way, a
4 couple of these people --
5 A Think about that. Does that really make sense
6 to you?
7 Q Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you
8 this: A couple of the people who you're talking about,
9 they actually weren't part of your conspiracy, yet you
10 actually received things from them. How did they get
11 involved? Nobody paid them. They just decided they
12 were going to put false statements with their own
13 letters?
14 Jennifer Kerstetter didn't get a single dime
15 from you, according to your own testimony, not a single
16 dime.
17 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection to form.
18 THE WITNESS: This is what you're missing. I
19 don't believe that Ms. Kerstetter or Ms. Caretsky
20 had any clue as to the significance of what they
21 were doing. I believe that despite the fact that
22 they were, yes, committing a fraud, that they
23 simply believed that they were assisting a valuable
24 TD Bank customer. That's my belief.
25 These other people, this is the first time I'm
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1 hearing about them giving me envelopes that they
2 may have put fake bank statements in.
3 BY MR. GELBER:
4 Q In that e-mail series, in a couple of the
5 e-mail series you see Mr. Brock and Ms. Caretsky and
6 Ms. Kerstetter actually saying, Mr. Rothstein is
7 coming. Here are the account statements you need. All
8 of that is consistent with giving you an actual real
9 bonafide account statement.
10 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection to form.
11 THE WITNESS: Except for the fact that what
12 banker in their right mind, if they're not actually
13 involved in a fraud, is going to allow a letter, an
14 original letter from TD Bank with bank statements,
15 out of their control to the point where someone
16 you're saying could actually walk away, put
17 something unbeknownst to them in it, then stroll
18 back and they're going to take that sealed envelope
19 and pass it off to me? That sounds like a
20 participant in a fraud. So either way you slice
21 it, there's a problem.
22 BY MR. GELBER:
23 Q They have to know that, though. Is it your
24 assumption that you're a customer of a bank, they give
25 you an envelope with a letter in it, that their customer
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1 is going to go a switch? At the time they didn't assume
2 that you were running a Ponzi scheme. They thought you
3 were a credible customer.
4 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Object to the form.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't want to argue with you
6 about it. I'm just telling you that I don't
7 understand of any circumstance -- and I wasn't
8 there. One of two things had to happen. Either
9 they had to substitute in the statements or they
10 allowed someone to substitute in the statements.
11 Both are problematic. Both facilitated the
12 Ponzi scheme. Both allowed me to carry out the
13 fraud.
14 BY MR. GELBER:
15 Q There are videos of Mr. Brock actually leaving
16 with a letter and doing a switch elsewhere or throwing
17 away the actual account statements that was put in there
18 and then coming back.
19 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection.
20 MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
21 BY MR. GELBER:
22 Q Why isn't it just as easy an alternative that
23 Mr. Brock during the course of these meetings with the
24 TD Bank folks when he left the room just simply did the
25 switch himself?
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1 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection, form.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know any banker in their
3 right mind who's not involved in a fraud that would
4 allow a customer to walk out with bank statements
5 so that they could switch something and then bring
6 it back, I suppose sealed, and then hand it back to
7 the person and that person is just going to hand it
8 to them? If they don't know, either way to me it
9 aided my fraud. I wasn't there.
10 My understanding was that on the bulk of
11 occasions they, meaning Ms. Caretsky at the very
12 least, substituted in my fraudulent bank statements
13 for the originals.
14 BY MR. GELBER:
15 Q Now, you --
16 A But I was not there.
17 Q You understand some of those e-mail circuits,
18 they're talking to other folks other than Ms. Caretsky
19 and Ms. Kerstetter, who have, from your testimony,
20 absolutely nothing to do with your fraud. Do you
21 understand that they're involved in the e-mail chain,
22 they're involved in the investor shows. There's no
23 evidence from anyone that they've been criminally
24 involved in this. And your testimony is that it just
25 must have happened through other people's actions on
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1 your behalf?
2 MR. SCHERER: Objection, form.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm guessing, but it would have
4 to be someone asking for their assistance, yes.
5 Because it just seems to me to violate every level
6 of smart banking protocol to allow someone to walk
7 away with a balance letter and then bring it back
8 all sealed up and say, Here, hand this off, will
9 you? That just makes no sense to me one way or the
10 other.
11 BY MR. GELBER:
12 Q Earlier --
13 A That's like allowing me behind the teller booth
14 and allow me to give people balances.
15 Q I understand your point. The point is, at that
16 point you were a trusted customer of the bank, correct?
17 A I was attempting to be a trusted customer of
18 the bank. I've since learned that apparently there were
19 a gazillion red flags going off and I shouldn't have
20 been a trusted anything.
21 Q At that point you were trying and pretending to
22 be a trusted customer of the bank; can you not answer
23 that yes or no?
24 A I can. The answer is yes.
25 Q In the community you were a very important
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1 member of the community, correct?
2 A Some people thought I was, and I understand now
3 other people thought I was up to something.
4 Q Why would they constantly, according to your
5 testimony, Ms. Caretsky was printing up actual bank
6 statements even though she knew you were substituting
7 out fake ones?
8 A I can only tell you what I was told. I don't
9 know for certain.
10 Q Well, I want to go over the explanations that
11 you told us. On December 13th Mr. Scherer asked you
12 some questions. I'm going to show you the transcript.
13 It's December 13th in the morning. I think it's Page
14 30.
15 A Thank you.
16 Q The question was:
17 "Do you have information that every time you
18 would ask for a balance, that Ms. Caretsky or
19 Ms. Kerstetter would actually have the -- what was
20 in the account printed up for them so that there
21 would be a record in the computer at TD Bank of
22 them asking for a --"
23 "Yes"
24 "-- balance statement?"
25 Answer: "Yes. I didn't mean to cut you off."
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1 Question: "Yes."
2 Answer: Yes, yes." Ms. Caretsky actually told
3 me that they needed to do that."
4 A That's correct.
5 Q So it's your testimony that Ms. Caretsky told
6 you that the way she was going to create a sort of proof
7 of innocence in this would be by printing up an actual
8 bank statement so that the computer had a record of
9 somewhere that screen shot being printed?
10 A No.
11 Q Well, when you said printed up for them so that
12 there would be a record in the computer at TD Bank, what
13 does "there would be a record in the computer at TD
14 Bank" mean?
15 A It was a very simple conversation. I said, You
16 know, we don't need the original bank statements because
17 Bill kept bringing them back to the office. I said, I
18 don't need these. She said, Well, we have to print them
19 up for our own records. End of conversation.
20 Q I understand that was a second time. That was
21 story number two later in the week. I'm asking you
22 about this one. The words out of your mouth at the
23 beginning of last week was, "so that there would be a
24 record in the computer at TD Bank." Did she tell you
25 those words or didn't she?
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1 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
2 THE WITNESS: What Ms. Caretsky told me is what
3 my answer is, not what Mr. Scherer was feeding me.
4 Ms. Caretsky actually told me that they needed to
5 do that. That's as much as she told me.
6 BY MR. GELBER:
7 Q So, when Mr. Scherer fed you this question, you
8 didn't say, That's not what she said. You said, "Yes,
9 yes. Ms. Caretsky actually told me that they needed to
10 do that."
11 A Well, Mr. Scherer's questions are a lot like
12 some of my answers. Some of them are very long. Do you
13 have balance information that every time you would ask
14 for a balance that Ms. Caretsky or Ms. Kerstetter would
15 actually have the - what was in the account printed up
16 for them so there would be a record in the computer?
17 That was my understanding of it. I couldn't
18 figure out why anyone else would be printing it up. But
19 she did tell me that we have to do it anyway for our
20 records. End of conversation.
21 There wasn't anything further. There wasn't a
22 detailed explanation of it.
23 Q So, on December 13th when you said yes, as to
24 the question, She was doing it so there would be a
25 record in the computer at TD Bank? You didn't mean that
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1 there would be a record in the computer. You meant that
2 they were actually printing up hard copies? This is not
3 accurate, is what you're telling me?
4 A I can't tell you whether it's specifically
5 accurate or not. The record in the computer -- if
6 you're telling me right now that if you have to print up
7 something off your computer, that we have to do it
8 anyway, I would surmise that it's for a record in the
9 computer.
10 So, yes, what he asked me is accurate. Okay?
11 But what you're trying to do is twist my words up.
12 You're talking about very lengthy conversations. You're
13 trying to play a little impeachment game by trying to
14 twist my words up. The point is that she said to me
15 what she said to me.
16 Q Listen, I understand you're accusing me of
17 twisting your words, but they happen to be your words.
18 And the term record in the computer means a footprint in
19 the computer.
20 Is it your testimony here today right now, not
21 last week, that when Ms. Caretsky came to you and
22 said -- that Ms. Caretsky did not say to you that she
23 needed to print them up to keep a record in the
24 computer?
25 A Ms. Caretsky said to me, We need to print them
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1 up anyway. I surmised that that meant because they
2 needed a record of it. I surmised that, she did not say
3 that.
4 Q Okay. So, what you said last week was
5 incorrect?
6 A You have to show me the testimony.
7 Q You have it right in front of you.
8 A The piece I'm looking at right now, Page 30?
9 Q Look, I don't know why this is so problematic.
10 You answered a question, "Ms. Caretsky said that --
11 MR. LICHTMAN: Objection, the witness is trying
12 to confirm what document.
13 THE WITNESS: Let me do it this way: On Page
14 30 you handed me, I stand by my answer as it reads
15 from the beginning of the question highlighted to
16 the end of the highlight. I stand by my answer.
17 MR. SCHERER: Was that an exhibit?
18 THE WITNESS: It doesn't have an exhibit number
19 on it, Mr. Scherer.
20 MR. SCHERER: Mark that, please.
21 MR. GELBER: Oh, it's a transcript of this
22 proceeding. All right. That's fair.
23 What's the next number?
24 MR. RABIN: 221.
25 (Whereupon, Caretsky Exhibit No. 221 was marked
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1 for identification.)
2 (A discussion was had off the record.)
3 MR. GELBER: That is 222. Mark this.
4 (Whereupon, Caretsky Exhibit No. 222 was marked
5 for identification.)
6 BY MR. GELBER:
7 Q On December 16th in the morning you addressed
8 this same issue again. And you said, "To my
9 recollection we never faked a cover letter. We didn't
10 need to."
11 Question: "Yeah. And is it -- it's your
12 understanding that every time they gave you a fake cover
13 letter they asked the banks - they made a printed screen
14 shot from the bank of the actual balance to go along
15 with the cover letter?"
16 Answer: "Yes, sir."
17 Question: "So they would have some
18 deniability?"
19 Answer: "Yes. At one point in time I asked
20 Ms. Caretsky, I said, You know, I don't need these.
21 Just stick it in a file. She said, No, I need to show
22 that they were printed out at the time that I wrote this
23 letter so we have a complete record."
24 Is that actually what you're saying happened?
25 A To my way of thinking, this is completely
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1 consistent with the other record you just showed me.
2 It's a completely consistent answer.
3 Q But this has a printed document, and earlier in
4 the week it was keeping a blueprint in the computer like
5 in the cache or something like that.
6 A In my mind both answers are completely
7 consistent.
8 Q Let me ask you, What is the reason -- I mean,
9 are you saying that from your understanding Ms. Caretsky
10 was actually bringing actual account balances, real
11 ones, to the investor meetings that you had set up with
12 your investors? She's actually bringing real ones to
13 the meetings?
14 A No.
15 Q Well, at the actual investor shows that you had
16 been talking about, when she gave you that envelope with
17 the letter on top of it, you know that she was printing
18 up actual account statements at the same time?
19 A I learned that --
20 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: -- from speaking to Bill, yes,
22 and from seeing that he kept bringing these
23 original bank statements back with him and leaving
24 them for me and Deb.
25 BY MR. GELBER:
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1 Q Other than your claim that she told you this
2 was part of her coverup, it would make no sense for her
3 if she was part of your conspiracy to print up actual
4 account statements and give them to Mr. Brock while they
5 were doing these investor meetings?
6 A I'm not going to guess what she thought made
7 sense or didn't.
8 Q What possible sense could it have made to print
9 up the actual account statement and bring it to a
10 meeting where she's going to actually put in the
11 envelope a fake account statement.
12 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: I never said she brought it to
14 the meeting.
15 BY MR. GELBER:
16 Q You said you learned that from Mr. Brock?
17 A My best recollection is that we kept getting
18 the documents in the office. We didn't need them. At
19 some point it time I said that to Ms. Caretsky. That's
20 the end of it. It's not complicated.
21 Q When did you tell her, Please stop sending us
22 all these real account statements?
23 A I didn't say it like that.
24 Q What did you say?
25 A I said exactly what's in the record.
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1 Q And you said, Just stick them in the file?
2 A I may have said something to that effect, yes.
3 Q So what you're saying is that Ms. Caretsky was
4 willing to give somebody she didn't know a fraudulent
5 balance statement - she was willing to give somebody she
6 didn't know a fraudulent balance statement, and her
7 deniability would be that she had printed up the actual
8 one and given it to you?
9 A I don't think she ever thought it would get to
10 this level. Again, I'm telling you --
11 Q Then why was she creating a --
12 MR. NURIK: Let him finish the answer.
13 BY MR. GELBER:
14 Q Go ahead.
15 A I already told you what I thought was in her
16 mind. I don't think she or Ms. Kerstetter understood
17 the gravity what they were getting involved in. I don't
18 think anyone thought it would get that far. I think she
19 thought she was helping me.
20 MR. SCHNAPP: I'm going to move to strike that
21 answer on behalf of TD Bank as not responsive.
22 BY MR. GELBER:
23 Q You are saying --
24 MR. LICHTMAN: Speculation, too.
25 BY MR. GELBER:
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1 Q -- that Ms. Caretsky didn't think this was that
2 big a deal. But she was creating this sort of false
3 trail to make it look like otherwise innocent conduct
4 was actually innocent?
5 A You're asking me to guess what she was
6 thinking. I don't think.
7 MR. LICHTMAN: Objection to form.
8 BY MR. GELBER:
9 Q Now --
10 A She could have avoided this all in the first
11 place by simply not doing any of this, by saying, I'll
12 print up the bank statements. I'll hand them to them.
13 No, Mr. Brock, you can't have these. I need to hand
14 them to him. She could have done that. She didn't do
15 that either.
16 MR. SCHNAPP: On behalf of TD Bank I move to
17 strike that answer also as not responsive. And I
18 request that the witness respond only to those
19 questions that he's asked.
20 BY MR. GELBER:
21 Q Mr. Rothstein, you don't want to go to jail,
22 right? I mean, your don't want to stay in jail.
23 A Excuse me. I was sentenced to 50 years.
24 Q In fact, though, you think the judge was
25 actually unfair to you in the sentence, don't you?
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1 A I don't think that he was unfair given the
2 gravity of what I did, no, sir.
3 Q You didn't say previously that you hope you're
4 going to get a reduction in sentence and mention that --
5 Well, let me read you what you said.
6 "I have to hope that Judge Cohn who has already
7 sentenced me to 50 years, which is 10 more than the
8 government was asking for, decides to be fair with me".
9 Are you not suggesting that the Judge was
10 unfair with you when you --
11 A No. Again, you're trying to put words in my
12 mouth. One thing does not mean the other thing. I am
13 hopeful that - at the time that the government hopefully
14 asks for the actual reduction, that he is fair with me.
15 That's the best I can hope for.
16 Q As part of that you have to - part of what
17 you're trying to do with the Court is you're trying to
18 convince Mr. LaVecchio and the Court that you have made
19 everybody whole in this; have you not?
20 A I'm trying to convince people --
21 MR. LICHTMAN: Objection to the form.
22 MR. GELBER: Let me rephrase that.
23 BY MR. GELBER:
24 Q You promised the Court you are going to make
25 all legitimate investors whole; have you not
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1 A And I will.
2 Q You've promised him that? That's a promise
3 from you?
4 A It's still a promise from me.
5 Q And you probably spent hundreds of millions of
6 dollars as part of this, that's just to the wind right
7 now?
8 A Part of this?
9 Q In the course of your scheme you spent hundreds
10 of millions of dollars?
11 A Sure.
12 Q It's going to be very hard to make your
13 investors whole unless you find ways to tag a deep
14 pocket with some liability?
15 A I believe that if I'm released where I can
16 still be productive that I have the capacity to generate
17 significant amounts of money legally and pay these
18 people back.
19 Q And you're hoping - my understanding is you're
20 hoping that in fact a Court is going to look at this and
21 give you a substantial sentence reduction, whatever
22 cooperation you give.
23 A Look at what? I don't understand.
24 Q Look at all your cooperation and give you a
25 substantial sentence reduction?
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1 A I'm hopeful that Judge Cohn treats me fairly.
2 If that means a substantial sentence reduction -- who
3 sentenced to 50 years wouldn't want a substantial
4 reduction?
5 Q You're expecting, absent that reduction, to
6 probably die in jail?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, you understand your cooperation with the
9 government that you're not going to get credit for
10 exonerating people, you know that, right?
11 A That's not true.
12 Q So, in other words, if your cooperating does
13 not lead to the investigation or prosecution of
14 somebody, you would get credit for the people that you
15 exonerated?
16 A It's my understanding that my providing of
17 truthful testimony to them, both inculpatory and
18 exculpatory, aids me in my substantial assistance
19 because by exonerating certain people, it allows them to
20 focus their investigative energies in the proper
21 direction.
22 Q So, you think if you just exonerated people you
23 would get a reduction in sentence or isn't it really the
24 investigation of people with criminal liability that
25 gets you the reduction?
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1 A I don't think I understand your question.
2 Q When you stand up in Court at some point,
3 you're hoping Mr. LaVecchio stands up and says he's
4 really helped us and he's made a lot of cases for us.
5 You're hoping that he says that?
6 A I'm hoping that he outlines all my cooperation.
7 Q You're hoping that Mr. Scherer, the Trustee
8 stand up and say the same things, although he was a
9 horrible guy when he did this, he's really been a
10 stand-up guy now and we got all the money back?
11 A I don't know what they are permitted to do. I
12 don't know how the actual Rule 35 process works.
13 Q You've given a lot of thought to this; haven't
14 you?
15 A To my Rule 35?
16 Q You've given a tremendous amount of thought to
17 how you're going to get your sentence reduced?
18 A My main focus right now is living a healthy
19 life, making sure family is okay, and telling the truth
20 to the government. That's my focus.
21 Q I understand that, but I understand what you're
22 saying what. I'm asking you --
23 A Actually that's not just what I'm saying.
24 That's what I'm doing. In the scheme of this total
25 thing, okay, Ms. Caretsky played a very small part in
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1 they he should be lenient on you because you helped them
2 get money for the innocent investors?
3 A I would like them to come in and speak on my
4 behalf.
5 Q Wasn't Mr. Scherer at the first sentencing?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When I ask you that question -- you fully
8 expect and hope that they will be there to tell the
9 Judge how terrifically helpful you were in getting back
10 money for innocent investors and that you will hope that
11 the Judge uses that to reduce your sentence?
12 A Yes. I'm hopeful of that, sure.
13 Q So, this notion that this has nothing to do
14 with your sentence is preposterous, you're hoping it
15 plays a part in your sentence reduction?
16 A That's two completely different statements.
17 You're trying to twist my words. What I hope they do
18 and what the Court will consider are two completely
19 different things. It's my understanding that the stuff
20 the Court is supposed to consider pertains to the
21 criminal cases.
22 Do I still hope that they come in and tell them
23 what I've done in the civil cases? Yes. What the Judge
24 does with that, that's up to the Judge, not me.
25 Q Now, your testimony against my client, your
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1 testimony against Ms. Kerstetter, your testimony against
2 others, basically says that the e-mails to and from were
3 actually, as you've described it, they were trying to
4 pretend like they were doing something innocent but in
5 fact they were part of something that was guilty. Is
6 that -- am I misdescribing what you said?
7 A Understanding the parameters of your
8 questioning I would be guessing to tell you that.
9 Q Go ahead.
10 A That's my best guess.
11 Q Your best guess is yes?
12 A My best guess is yes.
13 Q And the only thing that --
14 A -- that they were creating their own paper
15 trail.
16 Q But, that explanation which you gave us that
17 came from Ms. Caretsky, nobody else - you're the only
18 person that's told us that at this point?
19 A I have no idea. I have no idea who else you
20 spoke to.
21 Q It's your word that says otherwise innocent
22 behavior is actually evidence of guilt because they are
23 just pretending to be innocent while they're sending
24 those e-mails. It's your word that's saying that?
25 MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
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1 A I think the fact that these fraudulent bank
2 statements were handed to investors by TD Bank officials
3 speaks for itself, regardless of how the statements
4 ended up getting in there.
5 Q I understand that, but the e-mails to and from,
6 we've talked about now - other than your explanation
7 that they are really evidence of a guilty mind, they
8 look like folks are just talking to each other about
9 actual legitimate account statements they have to print
10 up.
11 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
12 A No, it actually looks bizarre to me because if
13 they weren't in on it how about at least one e-mail
14 saying, what do you need this for? What are you doing?
15 Print it up yourself, we can't have you keep coming to
16 the bank. Or if you'd like to come, bring your own
17 statements with you. I don't know what to tell you.
18 Q So, that's --
19 A You're arguing the same point with me over and
20 over.
21 Q Your point seems to be ultimately that well,
22 it's just ridiculous for them to take care of a really
23 important customer; that is what your argument is over
24 and over again and I guess --
25 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
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1 A No, I think ignoring bright red flags that were
2 going off for a really good customer, that's really what
3 was occurring.
4 Q At the end of the day that conversation you had
5 with Ms. Caretsky where she says: I have to do this to
6 keep a record, I have to do this to keep a file -- by
7 the way, have you heard of any file anywhere with all of
8 these other account statements that were kept for just
9 this moment, I guess?
10 A I don't --
11 MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
12 A I haven't heard either way, no, sir.
13 Q So, nobody has produced it from anyone and they
14 didn't produce it from your office, nobody has produced
15 these legitimate account statements that were being
16 produced particularly for the purpose of showing
17 consciousness of innocence?
18 MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
19 A I have seen numerous productions of the real
20 bank statements and numerous productions of the fake
21 bank statements. I can't tell you who produced it. I
22 certainly can't tell you whatever that consciousness of
23 innocence thing is.
24 MR. LICHTMAN: I'm just pointing out per the
25 Court Order calls that we quit at 5:00. The
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1 Q Mr. Rothstein --
2 A -- and by people's actions.
3 Q You called yourself a liar, a thief and a
4 scumbag?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And you were a liar, a thief and a scumbag?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And is it your testimony that you're just
9 simply no longer acting like a liar, a thief and a
10 scumbag now?
11 A I am no longer a liar. I will always be a
12 thief, not that I will steal anymore, but I will always
13 carry that label. And I spent -- let me finish. I
14 certainly spent, up until the point I decided to come
15 back from Morocco, a good portion of my life as what I
16 would call a scumbag, yes. I took advantage of people
17 that I shouldn't have taken advantage of.
18 Q We are to rely on the word of a liar, a thief,
19 and a scumbag that Ms. Caretsky received $25,000?
20 A Coupled with all the documentary evidence.
21 Q Is there documentary evidence to that?
22 A Not to that specific thing, but a lot of
23 documentary evidence that says that people were
24 tremendously stupid, which I don't think they were - she
25 certainly is not a stupid individual, or they were
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1 engaged in something they shouldn't have been engaged
2 in.
3 MR. GELBER: I'm done.
4 (The proceedings were concluded at 5:00 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF BROWARD )
6
7
8 I, TERRI L. WRIGHT, Notary Public in and for
9 the State of Florida at Large, certify that I was
10 authorized to and did stenographically report the
11 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a true
12 and complete record of my stenographic notes.
13
14 Dated this 19TH day of December, 2011.
15
16
17
18 ______________________________________Terri L. Wright
19
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A
ability (3)12:12 36:25 39:5
able (5)19:12 28:7 57:10 59:6
137:4
absent (1)174:5
absolute (1)145:19absolutely (6)19:20 145:21 146:5
152:15,22 160:20accepting (1)108:25
access (15)28:25 33:22,23 36:8
36:11 62:24,2464:10 119:23 120:1120:1,2 121:2,8,11
accompanied (2)82:6 122:16accomplice (2)16:22 17:8accordion (3)106:4,5,9
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43:22 44:2,17 46:1781:12 86:22 92:794:2 95:6 98:399:17 118:16,16122:15,16,16,18
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81:5alternative (1)159:22amended (5)8:7 68:2 74:14 75:1
75:14amount (6)43:18 46:22 66:13
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168:6anxiety (1)61:7
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105:1 110:9anymore (1)182:12
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128:13 132:19authorized (2)78:3 184:10
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49:3 88:15 91:6
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168:23 170:21171:12,16 176:16179:1,2,16 180:20180:21
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158:12 160:2
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60:13bizarre (1)179:12
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85:16,19,21 88:690:21 95:24 99:3,19101:10,11,16138:10
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22:3 48:24 49:2551:16 73:12,19,2478:16,17 80:6 82:182:24 83:2 84:21,2288:1,13 91:2 96:1997:13,22 98:7,13101:22 104:11,14104:25 105:13106:8 107:4,10,12
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135:24 139:21,22145:2 146:6,7,8,11146:12,14 148:5
154:5 161:16 162:1163:4 182:5,7
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52:11 84:9correspondence (2)15:11 70:19
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112:19 164:17
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114:2country (1)58:10county (3)1:2 2:2 184:5
couple (10)72:16 74:10 75:3,19
90:24 141:1 143:23157:4,8 158:4
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65:3 70:25 71:2106:17 107:3 111:2143:19 159:23173:9
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cover (11)47:9 75:9,9 122:15
124:1 125:9 145:13
145:14 167:9,12,15covering (1)
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145:7
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54:22,24 55:13,1455:17 56:17 57:25
58:24 59:3,5,7,1964:23 171:2
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64:21 65:6 80:17
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182:14decides (1)172:8
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85:21 86:2 99:3,19101:11,12,18
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79:3,8 87:6 98:21
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140:13deleted (2)67:19 68:1deliver (1)107:8
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